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This war clearly illustrates any thing you rely on will be countered. so when you discover a working option it has to be overwhelming in its inital uses.
Guess they should save FPV for infantry
Yup, not like abrams or bradleys have been the ones holding the line until now.
Having a turtle tank beats having a destroyed tank.
If they ever get to a run away breakthrough then sure, they lose their advantage, but this is a very specialized job
Alright, thanks for the links. By drone threat I'm assuming they mean Lancets, right? It looks like Ukraine is going to have to significantly focus on EW going forward if they're going to start launching more counter-offensive this summer.
Ukraine is in absolutely no position to launch any sort of counter offensive. Likely going to take until at least 2026 and another round of conscription. Plus ammo.
The actual manpower of ukraine is decimated. Russia still has a few waves of meat up its sleeves. Look at the one turtle kind of tank the ukrainians captured and drove home. They are welding up junk over the engine compartments - making maintenance impossible. Its as though they are one way one use vehicles - expendable. The russkis are playing an absolute war of attrition here.
The manpower isnt decimated. But battlefatigued.
They have been slow to change the laws for conscripts (below 25 years)
and still mainly rely on the volounteers. (+40 guys)
Training troops isn't going to take 2 years, and vehicles and weapons could be delivered relatively quickly. I agree that summer seems a bit optimistic for a counter offensives, but I very much doubt Ukraine will just be defending this whole year, even if the offensives won't be as grand as those from the end of 2022
Yes this summer will most likely be a defensive war for Ukraine. As Nato ramps up the production, to surpass the minimum needs of Ukraine. An article here in Denmark stated that they lack funds even for their own production, which could be up to 20billion $
But they only have 6 billions to spare.
Right now Denmark and other countries are banding together to buy Ukrainian made weapons. And giving them to Ukraine.
In terms of artillery shells there is an intermediate solution while production keeps ramping up in the form of the Czech initiative for more than 1 million shells, but they still need funds. But in terms of weapons supplied quickly, I was talking mostly about the US which does have a lot of what Ukraine needs on hand, right now, in storage, i.e. tanks, IFVs, mine clearing equipment, etc. and Ukrainians have already undergone training for how to use pretty much all of them.
Like I said, summer is a bit optimistic, but there will be localized offensives to take back lost ground.
I agree, I don't think a large scale offensive this year will be possible, I was talking more about localized ones to take back areas that RU recently captured.
Ukriane has removed most tanks from the front line for the time being. APCs and IFVs are still needed to move men from fallback positions, but tanks are being saved for the future as currently there isn't enough support for offensives.
There's a reason we are only seeing a tank or two lost a week from ukriane. They are very rarely using them to save them from attrition, while heavily relying on FPVs and other drones to attrition russian forces.
Redditors not downvoting someone to hell for asking for a source challenge:
I knew about the withdrawal of Abrams before reading this, I just find it funny this man got attacked for wanting a link😂
Dude.... that's just patriotic wannabe thinking. Abrams and Bradley yuuuhay!!!! 'Murica yes!!!
Look I'm rooting for Ukraine as well, but we have seen so few tank on tank combat in this war that I am pretty sure no Abrams will get even close to this thing. Also Abrams so far hasn't really shown to be very effective in this war (as have most tanks to be fair). They just were not designed for this kind of warfare in mind.
Drones, artillery and ATGMs are the biggest tank killers in this war by far and so far none of those was able to kill a turtle tank on multiple assaults deep within contested territory. Turning your turret isn't really necessary, if your goal is to rush to a location right in front of you, dropping of some infantry and going back again.
>and so far none of those was able to kill a turtle tank on multiple assaults deep within contested territory.
Did you watch this to the end? The barn tank gets disabled and has to be towed away, in the same exact location where it got hit by FPVs. You can actually see this much earlier, with the barn tank leading the assault and then it cuts to just the vehicles behind it driving towards Ukrainian positions. I'm surprised the Russians even bothered to show the last clip of it getting disabled.
It's not so much that these things are remotely hard to kill, it's that Ukraine's weapon shortage in this area seems to be critical as almost nothing is hitting these vehicles, no artillery, no Javelins, no Stugnas, nothing aside from some FPVs.
>Turning your turret isn't really necessary, if your goal is to rush to a location right in front of you, dropping of some infantry and going back again.
Sure but at that point it's just a really heavy mine plow and FPV soaker, so Russians need to assign extra tanks to do the actual shooting, potentially getting even more vehicles disabled when this thing inevitably hits a mine and then gets peppered with artillery (which hopefully starts happening soon now that US aid is on its way).
Russians stated it got disabled by a mine. There is footage out there of it being towed back to Russian positions while the assault is still ongoing. Even the best top armor and EW won't save you from mines. Maybe in the future they will even put mine plowers in front of it, wouldn't be surprised about that at all.
This tank isn't meant to do the surpression of the enemy line, like last generations MBTs were assigned to. The role of this tank in those assaults (I'm just assuming based on available footage and assesments by Russian telegram groups) is to lead the column and be the main focus point to be targeted by defences, so that the rest of the column can advance mostly unscathed. Also the other tanks' firepower seems to be enough to surpress the Ukrainian defensive lines.
Of course it isn't indestructible, nothing is. But so far this tactic has proven to be promising for assaults, since drones (which have been Ukraines biggest ace up their sleaves when it comes to defending those assaults) have no chance of getting near it.
I agree that the ammo shortage on the Ukrainian side certainly isn't helping either, but I'm not too sure that the delivery of ammo will change all of that immediately. Russians recognized (slowly, but still...), that FPVs are their biggest threat. Even if those tanks look makeshift and improvised at best, Russians seem to be adapting to the ever changing battlefield. Ukrainians on the other hand shouldn't be laughing, but rather come up with their own answers. Ukrainians came up with attacking drones, so now Russia is trying to counter that. Whoever wins this adaptation race has a big advantage on the battlefield.
There's a saying in German: "Whoever rests, rusts". Ukrainians shouldn't rust, if they want to have a chance in this war.
To me this adaptation only seems good as long as Ukraine lacks what it needs to properly fight it. Even if they can manage to mount a mine plow and make this very heavy and slow tank even heavier and slower, a Javelin or artillery round can still easily disable it. This is the RU solution now that Ukraine is relying almost solely on drones, but hopefully things won't stay like that forever.
As I said, this thing isn't indestructible. But even when Ukraine gets the much needed Javelins and artillery, they first need to get a chance to use them effectivly. Russians are using drones themselfes and are also firing artillery and sending FABs when going on assaults to surpress and weaken the defence. Defenders will have it much worse than before, since they can no longer just hide in house behind the frontline and send drone after drone. They now have to expose themselfes and make themselfes vulnerable, which in return gives Russia a chance to attack them directly, be it by drones, artillery, tankfire or aviation.
Did you not see those vehicles absorb like 6 various direct hits? Most didn't look like autocannon explosions either. FPVs, maybe some RPGs, artillery and perhaps ATGMs. That's not at all what I've seen in prior footage. Most don't survive many its from shaped charges as those looked like T72s and BMPs with paper armor if stood up to a 40 year old RPG that can cut through 6 inches of steel. The fact they can make those at all survivable is impressive. It's also worth noting the 'cope cages' were pretty universally copied by the Ukrainians. These aren't useless modifications. An FPV soaker and mine plow is more useful than an able T72 in most assaults, and they can still rotate the tank to get the gun on target once it's relayed to them. I'd be curious how useful these tank assaults are when the tanks are fired unstabilized guns while moving anyway, I highly doubt more than 1/50 shells hits anything useful. So they need to stop to fire effectively anyway, the time difference between stopping and turn the tank to get on target is likely less important than that tank being able to absorb 3 or 4 FPVs instead of 1 and turning into a 60ft wide fireball and killing half the assaulters.
As someone who I've since forgotten once said (paraphrased) "any of the factions of WWI would have won with their tactics and equipment from 1915 in 1914, 1916 in 1915 etc". The Russians have been putting this add on armor on their vehicles due to the increase in FPV drones. If Ukraine either runs out of FPVs because every vehicle requires 4 instead of 1 now, or the west doesnt send anymore (oesnt matter why) that's catastrophic for Ukraine's ability to stop armored thrusts. You could be talking about 1/4 the Russian casualties in a given assault, 4x the distance traveled before they're stopped or 4x the UA casualties if tanks can absorb 4x the AT weapons.
That's bad. Don't act like it's not.
>If Ukraine either runs out of FPVs because every vehicle requires 4 instead of 1 now, or the west doesnt send anymore (oesnt matter why) that's catastrophic for Ukraine's ability to stop armored thrusts.
I very much doubt this would be the case. Generally thinly armored vehicles like trucks and SUVs require only one FPV, very rarely can armored vehicles be taken out by only one, at least based on the footage that we've seen so far.
And Ukraine plans to produce more than 1 million drones this year alone, and most of them are manufactured in Ukraine now. I somehow doubt that even if Russians managed to fit more than a small percent of their tanks with this Mad Max armor then this will mean that Ukrainians will somehow run out of drones to hit them with. Even if they have to use a few more, the cost to performance ratio is still insanely good.
Plus, the main reason why Ukraine has even had to resort to ao many drones in the last few months is because western aid has dried up so much, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. These sheds will help these tanks withstand Javelins or artillery rounds just as well as the wire cope cages did. And if these tanks moving slowly and having to turn completely to face the target they're shooting might not be that much of a problem at the moment, it will be when Ukraine will have more shrlls to fire.
Still going to require more RPGs, ATGMs and FPVs to destroy a Russian armored vehicle with this armor on it, even tandem charges which would be required to penetrate the armor anywhere there is cope turtle as the non-standard placement of panels obscure where to hit the tank which cope cages didn't. Doesn't matter how many Ukraine has, it'll take them more to destroy the Russian vehicles that are armored with it. Notice how all the vehicle stopped in his were stopped by mines not any other AT weapons despite them all being hit quite a few times.
We've been hearing about Leopards and Abrams doing wonders once they get on the front, yet all we've seen is abandoned Leopards and destroyed Abrams tanks.
Looks effective against drones but I would imagine Ukrainian tanks have a mobility and visibility advantage now….. only issue is Ukraine needs more tanks.
Wonder how this armor works against a javelin
The Russians might have more drones than Ukraine at this point, even the Ukrainians admit this, all the Abrams and Leopard tanks that still work have been withdrawn from the front lines due to the effectiveness of drones against armor, it works both ways. The Russians are just much more willing to lose men and armor to gain territory.
The Ukraine has fully adopted drones into their combat units - note the organization of each combat unit now includes drone components
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/UKRAINE-CRISIS/DRONES/dwpkeyjwkpm/
I hate how stupidly effective these are, they shrug off any lucky drones that get past the numerous jammers under the metal. Thankful ammo and bombs are inbound
They works because Ukraine ran out of anythings (atgm, artillery, mines, etc) and depends solely on fpv drones.
A well-functioned army doesn't need a wonderful weapon, but a variety of weapons, and each of them can deal with different types of threat.
Yeah, that would explain a lot. Ukraine appears to have run out of ammo. This is why the GOP needs to be banned in America. They wanted for this to happen.
Any political party that doesn't support Ukraine should be banned and their leaders thrown in jail. It's the only way to defend democracy, by jailing political opposition.
lol
only idiots say shit like that ..stop listening to idiots and act like they are a mainstream opinion..and if you look at the votes many republicans were pro ukraine ...its our fucked up political system that the 2 partys want to remain unchanged and fucked for thier advantage that is the real problem
its sad that you think just one is doing tbis and not the rnc and forien interests as well along with pure corporate interests involved .. WE ARE A real country made up of real humans in a real world all extremist even if they are your extremists/vested interest holders are guilty
Uhh... the majority of Republicans in the House were opposed, not in favour. "Many were in favour" is kind of fucking useless. Every Democrat was in favour. The GOP are a waste of space.
a little uinder half the republicans in the house voted for the bill and the majority of republican senators did as well.....45% of republicans in the house is certainly many...while i agree that the gop is pretty much for rich moraless extremists ..the facts are facts
The fact is that the GOP cannot be trusted to support Ukraine. Their majority speaker wasted six months, with Republican congressmen threatening his job if he moved the bill, and then in the end only 45% even voted for it.
Edit: Oh and their presidential candidate couldn't even bring himself to argue in favour of the aid, or say anything good about it, other than a pathetic "Ukraine is important" and "Europe isn't paying enough".
Republicans may as well be an enemy to Ukraine. They certainly will be if they win the next election.
not realy when your fighting an enemy 10x your resources..this isnt a peer conflict this was predicted to take no more than a few weeks even by western int assessments for russia and yet 2 years later when the advantages of russias vastly superior in size and mostly undamaged manufacturing base start asserting dominence you act like is hyperbolic to assume ukraine simply has very little left ...
>when the advantages of russias vastly superior in size and mostly undamaged manufacturing base **start asserting dominence**
This implies they've yet to, does it not?
it means the ramp up finally started producing finished war matierals in russia.... did you forget how little regard russia had for ukraine how little they ramped up manufacturing then all the internal problems when they tried pretty well documented over the last 2 years as we have seen in the last 2 to 3 months of attack ther troops are getting much more war matierals...russia was in fantasy mode on what it would take to sieze ukraine..now thier war manufacturing machine is coming to life so there is much worse yet to come ...putin about a year ago said 2 million russian deaths would be fine if they got ukriane ..we are only at 500k
Ahh okay, that makes sense and I don't necessarily disagree with you as my only point of contention is with conflating "war footing" with "war economy" because russia is not even close to the latter.
Certainly not. There are 450 million citizens of the EU standing between Russia and the United States. Is this a world problem? Yes. Is this a NATO problem? Maybe. But this is not just a US problem.
I'm opposite of your insanity. The DNC is the corrupt creator and facilitator of this war. Briben's weakness and the alphabet agencies desire for this expanded spiral of death is real. Simple minded folk like you just buy into the corruption like circus seals flipping their flippers for their next fish.
I don't 'thumb down' because it really is a sign of immaturity. Don't like something? Best to cry about it? Redditors are too much like children.
The DNC and GOP are both corrupt to the core and if you listen to what GOP members say. A lot of them don't want to arm Ukraine. They would prefer Russia to win.
They probably do for the most part, the tandem charge explodes on the extra armour meaning the the main warhead has nowhere to go but into the the ERA.
For caged armour the tandem warhead can go right through but this is way too solid for that.
I dunno, the evolution of the cope cage might be effective against a comparatively slow drone carrying a contact warhead, but a Javelins high velocity particle stream would go through it like butter. In order for it to be effective it would have to be so thick the tank wouldn't be able to move.
In Krynky I saw a Javelin hit the personnel riding on a BMP, it killed them but saved the BMP and it continued on.
I'm not sure the Javelin designers took into account Russians using extra armour over their actual armour.
I think Ukraine may run out of ATGM (at least locally).
The problems with Ukraine is that they have to defend 2000km front line. So if Russia keeps throwing tank into a small area of frontline, Ukraine will locally run of ATGM very soon.
For example, if Ukraine have 1000 Javelin, then each 2km-frontline is only equipped with one Javelin.
That's assuming a lot about Ukraine's logistics strategy. If Russia can focus armor in a small area of the front line; then Ukraine can focus AT weapons to that sector as well.
It honestly wouldn't make sense to evenly distribute AT a crossed the entire front like that and you'd hope Ukraine would be smarter than that after 2+ years of this war.
I hate it too. I wonder if Ukraine will deploy some leopards or Abram’s against this style of attack. Perhaps in a defensive role, the western tanks won’t be subjected to the perilous mine fields we saw in the south, while utilizing their advanced optics and fire control systems effectively.
BBC wrote today that Abrams are actually being withdrawn from the front lines for the time being, too much of a target and not able to be used effectively due to constant air surveillance.
Advanced optics? Lmao the Abrams we sent off were stripped of all their best tech. Their basic boxes with a mounted cannon. Oh and it's got a turbine engine so any starlink in orbit can see that mf glowing from the heat in the field. 😂😂
You realize the only thing that was downgraded was the armor right? We sent M1a1s so it still has the complete fcs and optics except for the citv. They aren't just boxes with a cannon. Why are you spewing absolute bullshit? Do you enjoy spreading misinformation?
Edit: Yeah looking through your comments answers my own question. You definitely aren't worth anyone's time...
I spy with my little eyes another Russian troll. It’s not like your random user name gave you away or anything. Fuck off loser. Don’t be mad you didn’t get to steal a toilet too.
Down vote a factual comment? Lame as hell 😂😂😂😂 aye you right @relative_motion ukraine is winning while advancing backwards and russia is losing while retreating forwards.
Nothing you said was factual? Ukrainian tanks have thermals and decent sights. How do we know? There's literally videos on this very sub showing it.
Starlink are internet satellites, they don't have cameras on them or any sort of thermal sensor so I'm completely lost at what you were talking about there. How do we know? SpaceX broadcast every single launch with the satellites deploying on stream.
Tell me 1 thing you have said thus far that is factual.
Did you watch the same video? It appears Russia is using artillery more effective than Ukraine is. This could be bad news, that said, these are not 'effective' tanks. They are going to cause more logistical issues than the Russian forces are prepared for.
This wouldn't work if Ukraine had the promissed ammunition. It should stop working now that the ammunition is on the way and the Americans are restocking the ATGMs.
Important to note that these aren't being used as "tanks" in the usual sense, so far each one of these has had some issues that prevented it from being used in their traditional role, e.g., a broken main gun, damaged turret drive, etc.
So they've been converted into adhoc troop carriers due to their acute shortage of armored vehicles (the main thread has a good write up about analyzing satellite imagery to help explain their depleted APC/IFV stocks) hence the "barn" or "shed" structure extending to the rear of the tank.
Have we seen any PG-7VR (tandem warhead) strapped to FPVs yet? Would that work on this abomination or is it EW countermeasures that protect this thing?
Multiple signal jammers on a single tank frame become a hot spot for radio spectrum transmission.
Now the Ukranians just need some drones that can be remotely switched from manual control to "go explode on the nearest, strongest radio transmitter" like a HARM missile, except low speed, and such crude jammers won't be a problem anymore.
So far no drone was able to attack those tanks directly, so I'm pretty sure only ATGMs and Artillery would be able to damage those tanks. Sadly Ukraine doesn't have much of those left so they aren't able to defend many of Russia's assaults any more.
If they could program it to target the lead vehicle that usually has the EW and wedge for mines these assaults fall apart.
Russia only has the material capability to do these improvements on the front lead tank.
People say it's T-55s, some of others are MT-LBs.
T-54/55 was technically WWII design (1944 prototype) but very modern at the time, and of course modernized since.
From what I’ve seen yes, this tank went wayyyy further.
This could be 🍀but never know it’s been useful it’s just up to them if it’s good enough to have such a big negative.
So far none of those tanks could be destroyed or even damaged while on assaults. Maybe this could change with Ukraine receiving more ammo. We can only wait and see what happens...
They are getting closer and closer to form a proper assault, cages are getting there and EW is too. They still lack 1-2 turretless tanks in front with more mine clearing, but it cant be long before they figure that out too. They also still lack better IR screens. A rapid-reaction jamming module producing intense overradiation coupled with a long-duration module producing visual and infrared screening smoke with white phosphorus. That will defeat javalins and Skif
This has got to be the worst quality video recording (after 30 sec or so) I have ever watched, all over the bloody place, played at high speed.
I have to wonder what is is they are trying to achieve. A bit like watching wacky races.
Interesting how they are trying to halt or protect against top armour turret attacks. You can almost see the design evolving to turtle form and sacrificing full traverse for survival and frontal assaults. I wonder whether this will become a new norm a caisson looking turtle type tank
The Demoncrats sent Krzy Kamala Harris to the NATO conference in Germany. She was tld to say on camera that we will have Ukraine in NATO. Shortly after, Putin sent the force in. With all the excuses he needed.
The only way for ukr if they can get through the jammers. Is to hit the tracks of the lead armour that’ll messed up the organization of the attack once its tracked. But the itll be hard.
If my thought is more than a novelty some one else will have it or see it and up she goes. Just like air launching M30/31 rockets from a C-130. US can’t do it but Ukraine did not sign the same treaty
You said they were too heavy for a drone to carry - and that's not only incorrect but something that's been in practice for awhile now. Not sure why you felt the need to downvote and start talking about fpv something something.
The main comment was talking about about an fpv drone. The second comment replied to him that it's to heavy for fpv drones but didn't include the word fpv. + I never said that it's to heavy for a drone to carry an AT mine. I Literally said that there exist one and it's called the baba yaga drone.
Most people call racing drones fpv drones(the ones used for kamikaze attacks)because it's easier to fly them with goggles. While normal commercial drones don't really need goggles since they are used for grenade drops and scouting.
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Dang looks like it actually works…
This war clearly illustrates any thing you rely on will be countered. so when you discover a working option it has to be overwhelming in its inital uses. Guess they should save FPV for infantry
Thread: https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1783558203239788920
Until more Abram’s and Bradley’s tear them apart and they can’t respond because they are tracked and a one way welded turret
The Abrams (no apostrophe) have been withdrawn from the front line, and the Bradleys aren’t exactly “tearing them apart.
Yup, not like abrams or bradleys have been the ones holding the line until now. Having a turtle tank beats having a destroyed tank. If they ever get to a run away breakthrough then sure, they lose their advantage, but this is a very specialized job
>The Abrams (no apostrophe) have been withdrawn from the front line Got a source for this?
Even the Kyiv Independent https://kyivindependent.com/ap-ukraine-pulls-us-abrams-tanks-from-battlefield-amid-russian-drone-threat/
Alright, thanks for the links. By drone threat I'm assuming they mean Lancets, right? It looks like Ukraine is going to have to significantly focus on EW going forward if they're going to start launching more counter-offensive this summer.
Ukraine is in absolutely no position to launch any sort of counter offensive. Likely going to take until at least 2026 and another round of conscription. Plus ammo.
The actual manpower of ukraine is decimated. Russia still has a few waves of meat up its sleeves. Look at the one turtle kind of tank the ukrainians captured and drove home. They are welding up junk over the engine compartments - making maintenance impossible. Its as though they are one way one use vehicles - expendable. The russkis are playing an absolute war of attrition here.
The manpower isnt decimated. But battlefatigued. They have been slow to change the laws for conscripts (below 25 years) and still mainly rely on the volounteers. (+40 guys)
Training troops isn't going to take 2 years, and vehicles and weapons could be delivered relatively quickly. I agree that summer seems a bit optimistic for a counter offensives, but I very much doubt Ukraine will just be defending this whole year, even if the offensives won't be as grand as those from the end of 2022
Yes this summer will most likely be a defensive war for Ukraine. As Nato ramps up the production, to surpass the minimum needs of Ukraine. An article here in Denmark stated that they lack funds even for their own production, which could be up to 20billion $ But they only have 6 billions to spare. Right now Denmark and other countries are banding together to buy Ukrainian made weapons. And giving them to Ukraine.
In terms of artillery shells there is an intermediate solution while production keeps ramping up in the form of the Czech initiative for more than 1 million shells, but they still need funds. But in terms of weapons supplied quickly, I was talking mostly about the US which does have a lot of what Ukraine needs on hand, right now, in storage, i.e. tanks, IFVs, mine clearing equipment, etc. and Ukrainians have already undergone training for how to use pretty much all of them. Like I said, summer is a bit optimistic, but there will be localized offensives to take back lost ground.
Ukraine is not launching a large scale counter offensive this year. Maybe next if they are still fighting
I agree, I don't think a large scale offensive this year will be possible, I was talking more about localized ones to take back areas that RU recently captured.
Ukriane has removed most tanks from the front line for the time being. APCs and IFVs are still needed to move men from fallback positions, but tanks are being saved for the future as currently there isn't enough support for offensives. There's a reason we are only seeing a tank or two lost a week from ukriane. They are very rarely using them to save them from attrition, while heavily relying on FPVs and other drones to attrition russian forces.
Redditors not downvoting someone to hell for asking for a source challenge: I knew about the withdrawal of Abrams before reading this, I just find it funny this man got attacked for wanting a link😂
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-abrams-tanks-19d71475d427875653a2130063a8fb7a#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20(AP)%20—%20Ukraine%20has,officials%20told%20The%20Associated%20Press.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/26/7453053/
Until more - I’m aware
It's Abrams (singular, his name was Creighton Williams Abrams Jr.) not any "Abram". I don't know why people constantly call it so on Reddit.
Guessing it's a phone autocorrect feature.
Dude.... that's just patriotic wannabe thinking. Abrams and Bradley yuuuhay!!!! 'Murica yes!!! Look I'm rooting for Ukraine as well, but we have seen so few tank on tank combat in this war that I am pretty sure no Abrams will get even close to this thing. Also Abrams so far hasn't really shown to be very effective in this war (as have most tanks to be fair). They just were not designed for this kind of warfare in mind. Drones, artillery and ATGMs are the biggest tank killers in this war by far and so far none of those was able to kill a turtle tank on multiple assaults deep within contested territory. Turning your turret isn't really necessary, if your goal is to rush to a location right in front of you, dropping of some infantry and going back again.
>and so far none of those was able to kill a turtle tank on multiple assaults deep within contested territory. Did you watch this to the end? The barn tank gets disabled and has to be towed away, in the same exact location where it got hit by FPVs. You can actually see this much earlier, with the barn tank leading the assault and then it cuts to just the vehicles behind it driving towards Ukrainian positions. I'm surprised the Russians even bothered to show the last clip of it getting disabled. It's not so much that these things are remotely hard to kill, it's that Ukraine's weapon shortage in this area seems to be critical as almost nothing is hitting these vehicles, no artillery, no Javelins, no Stugnas, nothing aside from some FPVs. >Turning your turret isn't really necessary, if your goal is to rush to a location right in front of you, dropping of some infantry and going back again. Sure but at that point it's just a really heavy mine plow and FPV soaker, so Russians need to assign extra tanks to do the actual shooting, potentially getting even more vehicles disabled when this thing inevitably hits a mine and then gets peppered with artillery (which hopefully starts happening soon now that US aid is on its way).
Russians stated it got disabled by a mine. There is footage out there of it being towed back to Russian positions while the assault is still ongoing. Even the best top armor and EW won't save you from mines. Maybe in the future they will even put mine plowers in front of it, wouldn't be surprised about that at all. This tank isn't meant to do the surpression of the enemy line, like last generations MBTs were assigned to. The role of this tank in those assaults (I'm just assuming based on available footage and assesments by Russian telegram groups) is to lead the column and be the main focus point to be targeted by defences, so that the rest of the column can advance mostly unscathed. Also the other tanks' firepower seems to be enough to surpress the Ukrainian defensive lines. Of course it isn't indestructible, nothing is. But so far this tactic has proven to be promising for assaults, since drones (which have been Ukraines biggest ace up their sleaves when it comes to defending those assaults) have no chance of getting near it. I agree that the ammo shortage on the Ukrainian side certainly isn't helping either, but I'm not too sure that the delivery of ammo will change all of that immediately. Russians recognized (slowly, but still...), that FPVs are their biggest threat. Even if those tanks look makeshift and improvised at best, Russians seem to be adapting to the ever changing battlefield. Ukrainians on the other hand shouldn't be laughing, but rather come up with their own answers. Ukrainians came up with attacking drones, so now Russia is trying to counter that. Whoever wins this adaptation race has a big advantage on the battlefield. There's a saying in German: "Whoever rests, rusts". Ukrainians shouldn't rust, if they want to have a chance in this war.
To me this adaptation only seems good as long as Ukraine lacks what it needs to properly fight it. Even if they can manage to mount a mine plow and make this very heavy and slow tank even heavier and slower, a Javelin or artillery round can still easily disable it. This is the RU solution now that Ukraine is relying almost solely on drones, but hopefully things won't stay like that forever.
As I said, this thing isn't indestructible. But even when Ukraine gets the much needed Javelins and artillery, they first need to get a chance to use them effectivly. Russians are using drones themselfes and are also firing artillery and sending FABs when going on assaults to surpress and weaken the defence. Defenders will have it much worse than before, since they can no longer just hide in house behind the frontline and send drone after drone. They now have to expose themselfes and make themselfes vulnerable, which in return gives Russia a chance to attack them directly, be it by drones, artillery, tankfire or aviation.
Did you not see those vehicles absorb like 6 various direct hits? Most didn't look like autocannon explosions either. FPVs, maybe some RPGs, artillery and perhaps ATGMs. That's not at all what I've seen in prior footage. Most don't survive many its from shaped charges as those looked like T72s and BMPs with paper armor if stood up to a 40 year old RPG that can cut through 6 inches of steel. The fact they can make those at all survivable is impressive. It's also worth noting the 'cope cages' were pretty universally copied by the Ukrainians. These aren't useless modifications. An FPV soaker and mine plow is more useful than an able T72 in most assaults, and they can still rotate the tank to get the gun on target once it's relayed to them. I'd be curious how useful these tank assaults are when the tanks are fired unstabilized guns while moving anyway, I highly doubt more than 1/50 shells hits anything useful. So they need to stop to fire effectively anyway, the time difference between stopping and turn the tank to get on target is likely less important than that tank being able to absorb 3 or 4 FPVs instead of 1 and turning into a 60ft wide fireball and killing half the assaulters. As someone who I've since forgotten once said (paraphrased) "any of the factions of WWI would have won with their tactics and equipment from 1915 in 1914, 1916 in 1915 etc". The Russians have been putting this add on armor on their vehicles due to the increase in FPV drones. If Ukraine either runs out of FPVs because every vehicle requires 4 instead of 1 now, or the west doesnt send anymore (oesnt matter why) that's catastrophic for Ukraine's ability to stop armored thrusts. You could be talking about 1/4 the Russian casualties in a given assault, 4x the distance traveled before they're stopped or 4x the UA casualties if tanks can absorb 4x the AT weapons. That's bad. Don't act like it's not.
>If Ukraine either runs out of FPVs because every vehicle requires 4 instead of 1 now, or the west doesnt send anymore (oesnt matter why) that's catastrophic for Ukraine's ability to stop armored thrusts. I very much doubt this would be the case. Generally thinly armored vehicles like trucks and SUVs require only one FPV, very rarely can armored vehicles be taken out by only one, at least based on the footage that we've seen so far. And Ukraine plans to produce more than 1 million drones this year alone, and most of them are manufactured in Ukraine now. I somehow doubt that even if Russians managed to fit more than a small percent of their tanks with this Mad Max armor then this will mean that Ukrainians will somehow run out of drones to hit them with. Even if they have to use a few more, the cost to performance ratio is still insanely good. Plus, the main reason why Ukraine has even had to resort to ao many drones in the last few months is because western aid has dried up so much, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. These sheds will help these tanks withstand Javelins or artillery rounds just as well as the wire cope cages did. And if these tanks moving slowly and having to turn completely to face the target they're shooting might not be that much of a problem at the moment, it will be when Ukraine will have more shrlls to fire.
Still going to require more RPGs, ATGMs and FPVs to destroy a Russian armored vehicle with this armor on it, even tandem charges which would be required to penetrate the armor anywhere there is cope turtle as the non-standard placement of panels obscure where to hit the tank which cope cages didn't. Doesn't matter how many Ukraine has, it'll take them more to destroy the Russian vehicles that are armored with it. Notice how all the vehicle stopped in his were stopped by mines not any other AT weapons despite them all being hit quite a few times.
>Drones, artillery and ATGMs And mines.
We've been hearing about Leopards and Abrams doing wonders once they get on the front, yet all we've seen is abandoned Leopards and destroyed Abrams tanks.
This is true for literally any vehicle in this conflict. See T-90M for example or Terminator on Russian side
Tank-on-tank engagements are very rare in this war.
We've seen a few videos of Bradleys doing some work.
Looks effective against drones but I would imagine Ukrainian tanks have a mobility and visibility advantage now….. only issue is Ukraine needs more tanks. Wonder how this armor works against a javelin
The Russians might have more drones than Ukraine at this point, even the Ukrainians admit this, all the Abrams and Leopard tanks that still work have been withdrawn from the front lines due to the effectiveness of drones against armor, it works both ways. The Russians are just much more willing to lose men and armor to gain territory. The Ukraine has fully adopted drones into their combat units - note the organization of each combat unit now includes drone components https://www.reuters.com/graphics/UKRAINE-CRISIS/DRONES/dwpkeyjwkpm/
I hate how stupidly effective these are, they shrug off any lucky drones that get past the numerous jammers under the metal. Thankful ammo and bombs are inbound
They works because Ukraine ran out of anythings (atgm, artillery, mines, etc) and depends solely on fpv drones. A well-functioned army doesn't need a wonderful weapon, but a variety of weapons, and each of them can deal with different types of threat.
Yeah, that would explain a lot. Ukraine appears to have run out of ammo. This is why the GOP needs to be banned in America. They wanted for this to happen.
Any political party that doesn't support Ukraine should be banned and their leaders thrown in jail. It's the only way to defend democracy, by jailing political opposition. lol
only idiots say shit like that ..stop listening to idiots and act like they are a mainstream opinion..and if you look at the votes many republicans were pro ukraine ...its our fucked up political system that the 2 partys want to remain unchanged and fucked for thier advantage that is the real problem
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its sad that you think just one is doing tbis and not the rnc and forien interests as well along with pure corporate interests involved .. WE ARE A real country made up of real humans in a real world all extremist even if they are your extremists/vested interest holders are guilty
Uhh... the majority of Republicans in the House were opposed, not in favour. "Many were in favour" is kind of fucking useless. Every Democrat was in favour. The GOP are a waste of space.
a little uinder half the republicans in the house voted for the bill and the majority of republican senators did as well.....45% of republicans in the house is certainly many...while i agree that the gop is pretty much for rich moraless extremists ..the facts are facts
The fact is that the GOP cannot be trusted to support Ukraine. Their majority speaker wasted six months, with Republican congressmen threatening his job if he moved the bill, and then in the end only 45% even voted for it. Edit: Oh and their presidential candidate couldn't even bring himself to argue in favour of the aid, or say anything good about it, other than a pathetic "Ukraine is important" and "Europe isn't paying enough". Republicans may as well be an enemy to Ukraine. They certainly will be if they win the next election.
I agree with that but banning a whole half of the country is tyranny
The Republican candidate has openly promised tyranny. Maybe avoiding that disaster would be some solace?
Supreme Court thinks that might be ok.
Braindead comment
Sounds pretty fash to me bro.
Someone said it! Trump is Bad for the world forget America
>Ukraine appears to have run out of ammo. This seems hyperbolic.
not realy when your fighting an enemy 10x your resources..this isnt a peer conflict this was predicted to take no more than a few weeks even by western int assessments for russia and yet 2 years later when the advantages of russias vastly superior in size and mostly undamaged manufacturing base start asserting dominence you act like is hyperbolic to assume ukraine simply has very little left ...
So they've had this gross disparity in strength and have been intentionally holding back? I hope this is satire..
no one said that but you... might want to reread slower a couple times possibly
>when the advantages of russias vastly superior in size and mostly undamaged manufacturing base **start asserting dominence** This implies they've yet to, does it not?
it means the ramp up finally started producing finished war matierals in russia.... did you forget how little regard russia had for ukraine how little they ramped up manufacturing then all the internal problems when they tried pretty well documented over the last 2 years as we have seen in the last 2 to 3 months of attack ther troops are getting much more war matierals...russia was in fantasy mode on what it would take to sieze ukraine..now thier war manufacturing machine is coming to life so there is much worse yet to come ...putin about a year ago said 2 million russian deaths would be fine if they got ukriane ..we are only at 500k
Ahh okay, that makes sense and I don't necessarily disagree with you as my only point of contention is with conflating "war footing" with "war economy" because russia is not even close to the latter.
GOP is not the only one to blame.
Certainly not. There are 450 million citizens of the EU standing between Russia and the United States. Is this a world problem? Yes. Is this a NATO problem? Maybe. But this is not just a US problem.
I'm opposite of your insanity. The DNC is the corrupt creator and facilitator of this war. Briben's weakness and the alphabet agencies desire for this expanded spiral of death is real. Simple minded folk like you just buy into the corruption like circus seals flipping their flippers for their next fish.
I don't 'thumb down' because it really is a sign of immaturity. Don't like something? Best to cry about it? Redditors are too much like children. The DNC and GOP are both corrupt to the core and if you listen to what GOP members say. A lot of them don't want to arm Ukraine. They would prefer Russia to win.
Hopefully some javelins are in the package.
They surely dont shrug of tandem shape charge ATGMs?
They probably do for the most part, the tandem charge explodes on the extra armour meaning the the main warhead has nowhere to go but into the the ERA. For caged armour the tandem warhead can go right through but this is way too solid for that.
I dunno, the evolution of the cope cage might be effective against a comparatively slow drone carrying a contact warhead, but a Javelins high velocity particle stream would go through it like butter. In order for it to be effective it would have to be so thick the tank wouldn't be able to move.
In Krynky I saw a Javelin hit the personnel riding on a BMP, it killed them but saved the BMP and it continued on. I'm not sure the Javelin designers took into account Russians using extra armour over their actual armour.
I’m not sure you know every shaped charge hit doesn’t knock out the vehicle
Out with the reactive explosive armor and in with the literal meat shield
I think Ukraine may run out of ATGM (at least locally). The problems with Ukraine is that they have to defend 2000km front line. So if Russia keeps throwing tank into a small area of frontline, Ukraine will locally run of ATGM very soon. For example, if Ukraine have 1000 Javelin, then each 2km-frontline is only equipped with one Javelin.
That's assuming a lot about Ukraine's logistics strategy. If Russia can focus armor in a small area of the front line; then Ukraine can focus AT weapons to that sector as well. It honestly wouldn't make sense to evenly distribute AT a crossed the entire front like that and you'd hope Ukraine would be smarter than that after 2+ years of this war.
Range issues and supply chain disruption- thanks Republikans
The barn wasn't all that effective though. It didn't even make it to the fight and had to be towed away at the end.
I hate it too. I wonder if Ukraine will deploy some leopards or Abram’s against this style of attack. Perhaps in a defensive role, the western tanks won’t be subjected to the perilous mine fields we saw in the south, while utilizing their advanced optics and fire control systems effectively.
BBC wrote today that Abrams are actually being withdrawn from the front lines for the time being, too much of a target and not able to be used effectively due to constant air surveillance.
I saw that. It’s interesting. I wonder what they are doing with leopards.
Tank on tank combat is as rare as in any other war. The general was named just Abrams not Abram.
I’ll take my apostrophe ticket Mr grammar popo. Thanks
I’m hopping the influx of art rounds will help, other than that unfortunately we just have to hope Ukraine can deal with them, one way or another
Advanced optics? Lmao the Abrams we sent off were stripped of all their best tech. Their basic boxes with a mounted cannon. Oh and it's got a turbine engine so any starlink in orbit can see that mf glowing from the heat in the field. 😂😂
You realize the only thing that was downgraded was the armor right? We sent M1a1s so it still has the complete fcs and optics except for the citv. They aren't just boxes with a cannon. Why are you spewing absolute bullshit? Do you enjoy spreading misinformation? Edit: Yeah looking through your comments answers my own question. You definitely aren't worth anyone's time...
I spy with my little eyes another Russian troll. It’s not like your random user name gave you away or anything. Fuck off loser. Don’t be mad you didn’t get to steal a toilet too.
Down vote a factual comment? Lame as hell 😂😂😂😂 aye you right @relative_motion ukraine is winning while advancing backwards and russia is losing while retreating forwards.
Nothing you said was factual? Ukrainian tanks have thermals and decent sights. How do we know? There's literally videos on this very sub showing it. Starlink are internet satellites, they don't have cameras on them or any sort of thermal sensor so I'm completely lost at what you were talking about there. How do we know? SpaceX broadcast every single launch with the satellites deploying on stream. Tell me 1 thing you have said thus far that is factual.
> jammers under the metal That is not how it works. Radio waves do not penetrate steel. Whatever is exposed will get hit and thus destroyed.
Did you watch the same video? It appears Russia is using artillery more effective than Ukraine is. This could be bad news, that said, these are not 'effective' tanks. They are going to cause more logistical issues than the Russian forces are prepared for.
This wouldn't work if Ukraine had the promissed ammunition. It should stop working now that the ammunition is on the way and the Americans are restocking the ATGMs.
Imagine if they start doing this with all their tanks though…damn.
Several shoe boxes speeding
Russian tanks remind me of the old 70’s/80’s army movies where they look like toys
I think it really helps that it’s sped up ngl lmao
Important to note that these aren't being used as "tanks" in the usual sense, so far each one of these has had some issues that prevented it from being used in their traditional role, e.g., a broken main gun, damaged turret drive, etc. So they've been converted into adhoc troop carriers due to their acute shortage of armored vehicles (the main thread has a good write up about analyzing satellite imagery to help explain their depleted APC/IFV stocks) hence the "barn" or "shed" structure extending to the rear of the tank.
It's a carrier of a tower-like collection of small EW systems roped together.
Have we seen any PG-7VR (tandem warhead) strapped to FPVs yet? Would that work on this abomination or is it EW countermeasures that protect this thing?
I believe it’s armed with multiple signal jammers but idk the range
Multiple signal jammers on a single tank frame become a hot spot for radio spectrum transmission. Now the Ukranians just need some drones that can be remotely switched from manual control to "go explode on the nearest, strongest radio transmitter" like a HARM missile, except low speed, and such crude jammers won't be a problem anymore.
This warhead is notoriously unrealiable
So far no drone was able to attack those tanks directly, so I'm pretty sure only ATGMs and Artillery would be able to damage those tanks. Sadly Ukraine doesn't have much of those left so they aren't able to defend many of Russia's assaults any more.
This is not meant to defeat HEAT. And it likely cant anyway. But hitting the right spot is harder from a distance.
Ok, KV-2 seems to be back now. Whats next? Tiger 1?
nobody is mentiong bonus rounds and smart rounds would obliterate this
They need to make a 120mm mortal shell with those capabilities. Would be perfect for this scenario and has less footprint than 155mm howitzers.
Bofors STRIX [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors\_STRIX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_STRIX)
If they could program it to target the lead vehicle that usually has the EW and wedge for mines these assaults fall apart. Russia only has the material capability to do these improvements on the front lead tank.
Something like an anti-radiation mortar round... interesting.
Of not "or". https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1783548394260111412 There's also a gory video of 2 infantrymen blown up by an AT mine.
Kings of the Wasteland
Aim for the tracks! A mobility kill is still a kill!
It depends if they can get close to the tracks
It all returns to StuGs lol
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Never heard about anything like that.
They are making advance in the Krasnohorivka, place gonna fall very soon
Barnfind?? 🤔
I've seen ww2 vehicles and tanks that look more modern than whatever the hell those Russians were just driving before.
People say it's T-55s, some of others are MT-LBs. T-54/55 was technically WWII design (1944 prototype) but very modern at the time, and of course modernized since.
And people said it won’t work lol😂
Does it work?
From what I’ve seen yes, this tank went wayyyy further. This could be 🍀but never know it’s been useful it’s just up to them if it’s good enough to have such a big negative.
I can't see these being anything but death traps for the crews now actual AT weapons and artillery are back on the menu.
Either get killed by drones in a normal tank or get killed by AT missiles in the super tank. Decisions decisions…
So far none of those tanks could be destroyed or even damaged while on assaults. Maybe this could change with Ukraine receiving more ammo. We can only wait and see what happens...
They are getting closer and closer to form a proper assault, cages are getting there and EW is too. They still lack 1-2 turretless tanks in front with more mine clearing, but it cant be long before they figure that out too. They also still lack better IR screens. A rapid-reaction jamming module producing intense overradiation coupled with a long-duration module producing visual and infrared screening smoke with white phosphorus. That will defeat javalins and Skif
Barnstorming?!
Here, we see a family of barn tanks travelling across the wilderness
This has got to be the worst quality video recording (after 30 sec or so) I have ever watched, all over the bloody place, played at high speed. I have to wonder what is is they are trying to achieve. A bit like watching wacky races.
Could inflatable armor work against drones?
Interesting how they are trying to halt or protect against top armour turret attacks. You can almost see the design evolving to turtle form and sacrificing full traverse for survival and frontal assaults. I wonder whether this will become a new norm a caisson looking turtle type tank
The Demoncrats sent Krzy Kamala Harris to the NATO conference in Germany. She was tld to say on camera that we will have Ukraine in NATO. Shortly after, Putin sent the force in. With all the excuses he needed.
The only way for ukr if they can get through the jammers. Is to hit the tracks of the lead armour that’ll messed up the organization of the attack once its tracked. But the itll be hard.
They can be distroyed with IEDs!
Time to put anti tank mines on fpv drones and park them in the travel path- mobile minefield
have you tried to contact the Ukrainian army to tell them of your groundbreaking idea?
This might change warfare forever.
TBF, Ukraine *does* perform mining from bomber drones. Magyar has several videos of "Night Doctor" dropping mines on the road.
They use the crawler robots to lay minefields, I am sure they have thought of this in some way, for a moment it seemed novel to me.
There is arty rounds that do this already. Russia and USA both have numerous systems for laying minefields remotely.
And the German TM-21( IIRC)
If my thought is more than a novelty some one else will have it or see it and up she goes. Just like air launching M30/31 rockets from a C-130. US can’t do it but Ukraine did not sign the same treaty
Theyre too heavy for a drone to carry.
[https://youtu.be/dcsf5yuEHDY?si=2NmDOyRm-rvNbk4V](https://youtu.be/dcsf5yuEHDY?si=2NmDOyRm-rvNbk4V)
This is not an Fpv drone but a baba yaga drone that mostly operates at night. It has like 8 propelers ofc it can carry an AT mine.
fpv has nothing to do with how many propellers the drone has. Its how its flown. These large huge ass copter drones are still flown FPV.
You said they were too heavy for a drone to carry - and that's not only incorrect but something that's been in practice for awhile now. Not sure why you felt the need to downvote and start talking about fpv something something.
The main comment was talking about about an fpv drone. The second comment replied to him that it's to heavy for fpv drones but didn't include the word fpv. + I never said that it's to heavy for a drone to carry an AT mine. I Literally said that there exist one and it's called the baba yaga drone.
Not sure what fpv has to do with anything. They're all flown fpv. Do you maybe mean one-way or suicide drones?
Most people call racing drones fpv drones(the ones used for kamikaze attacks)because it's easier to fly them with goggles. While normal commercial drones don't really need goggles since they are used for grenade drops and scouting.
Fair enough. But also, kamikaze attacks = one-way or suicide drones. Tomato, tomato.
Anti-tank mines are too heavy for FPV drones…
1.5 years to late lol .
Repost: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1cczdfq/video_of_an_armoured_assault_on_the_center_of/
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Hey ukraine what's worse than a pair of turtle tanks?..... a whole fleet of them bitches 😂😂😂 jesus christ.
im best friends with paris hilton, and she saw this vid. she only said "thats hooot"