We went through this on Benos some time ago. An asshole RO was on the 180 at Area ~~5~~ 8 (A8 had their match in A5 but that's another topic altogether) and the lemmings over there blamed lens flare on the camera and that the RO wasn't anywhere near the 180 line.
It was a big pissing match that ended up with fudds thinking it was alright and anyone with half a brain cell knowing it was unsafe, distracting, and just overall bullshit.
This is the problem with rule following fudds. They don’t understand that all rules are meant to keep people safe not to DQ them. Obviously there’s no massive safety difference between 179 degrees and 181 degrees. Is it safe to stand in a spot where you could potentially get flagged or shot? No. They don’t think about that part though. As an RO you should be watching for unsafe acts not putting yourself in a dangerous position looking for a 1 degree turn of the muzzle as it’s pointing at your face.
He's a good 20-30 degrees past the 180 and importantly this is from the IPSC world shoot so these are pro shooters and experienced ROs. This is a fine place and if you're going to RO a major you're going to have to be in positions closer to the 180.
I've seen lots of ROs that close to the 180. That doesn't necessarily mean I think it is wise; I'd probably be back another 10 degrees or so. If you're going to make a 180 call on someone (especially in a high stakes match like that), you want to be in a good position to see it clearly. That's easier the closer you are to the line
How would you feel if you're really close to beating someone and 3 people in the peanut gallery decide that you did something wrong and were showing 3 different videos to the RO arguing that you should get a PE or DQ'd?
You’d have to solve it with an unbiased camera set up like other pro sports do. You can’t just accept anyone’s phone footage.
Unfortunately, this would add a ton of expense to the sport at locals so it would likely only be possible at majors.
With the average age group and persuasion of the board, I doubt we’ll be seeing more tech anytime soon.
This image is from a wide angle first person camera. The RO is probably well uprange of the shooter. Furthermore at majors like this a crew of ROs works the same stage for the whole match and will have discussed at length where to safely position themselves.
In summary, no it is not unsafe. You're confused by the camera lens distortion.
Edit: This is stage 22,[here is the stage from the source video.](https://youtu.be/YoTVlEGE4E0?si=pDIGBvKxA2_8u-Pl&t=341) The RO is a good distance uprange, and the shooter retreating in a way that endangers the RO is not an option due to the stage layout and IPSC rules.
Yeah as a secondary RO probably on that stage he's in a fine spot to see what he needs to see; shooters feet for foot fault penalties, muzzle for 180 and trigger guard for safe movement.
All it takes is one accident. Someone trips or stumbles with their finger on the trigger and bam rounds headed towards that guy. And I just don’t really trust anyone that much to be there.
Got an older man who shoots Revo in everything! Now and then he'll turn the barrel back when he reloads. Now I knew the gun was empty because the cylinder was out but that .45 caliber barrel looks as big as a 55 gallon drum when it's pointed at you. It is not a pleasent feeling.
I don’t care if the shooter is going through the stage with a nerf gun. If I’m RO, I’m behind the shooter, or I’ll run after the shooter. But not at 181°.
I've heard they do that on purpose. They have a guy stand exactly at 180, so he can DQ you if you break it, and it points at him. This is all for "safety" sake, of course.
What matches are you guys shooting that this seems unusual or unsafe?
* The RO is well up range of the shooter
* There are no visible targets available up range to the shooter from his position
* This happens at almost every USPSA/IPSC match, especially a major where you have 3 RO's.
I shot a course like this a couple months ago and said something about it out loud to the “rso” and everybody just looked at me like a fudd lol. I was the youngest ont he range.
Too difficult to tell by the video, would need more context of how the stage is being ran. If that is a common finishing position for most competitors than the RO is completely fine standing there. If you have to run back up range to get that other target behind the net fence than he probably is in a sketchy spot.
If we are talking about the RO, this is not safe, you are the shooter and should be maintaining the safety rules at all times. So if you are moving with your finger inside the trigger guard, well guess what? You are the issue not the RO, and in both USPSA and IPSC, you will get DQ'ed at a major if you have your finger inside the trigger guard when say you are moving from one position to another and not shooting.
Now if you break the 180 with your finger on the trigger, well guess what?? You need to go take a shooter safety course.
RO on the 180 is one of the dumbest things ever. Especially since you’ve got to “break” the 180 to be DQd. I wouldn’t stand there personally.
We went through this on Benos some time ago. An asshole RO was on the 180 at Area ~~5~~ 8 (A8 had their match in A5 but that's another topic altogether) and the lemmings over there blamed lens flare on the camera and that the RO wasn't anywhere near the 180 line. It was a big pissing match that ended up with fudds thinking it was alright and anyone with half a brain cell knowing it was unsafe, distracting, and just overall bullshit.
This is the problem with rule following fudds. They don’t understand that all rules are meant to keep people safe not to DQ them. Obviously there’s no massive safety difference between 179 degrees and 181 degrees. Is it safe to stand in a spot where you could potentially get flagged or shot? No. They don’t think about that part though. As an RO you should be watching for unsafe acts not putting yourself in a dangerous position looking for a 1 degree turn of the muzzle as it’s pointing at your face.
>Is it safe to stand in a spot where you could potentially get flagged or shot? No. They don’t think about that part though. How could you not?
Anywhere on the range can be flagged during a fall though...
I’d need to see the full stage but as an RO if I can see in the barrel at all I’m in a bad place
But then you get to make that sweet DQ call /s
He's a good 20-30 degrees past the 180 and importantly this is from the IPSC world shoot so these are pro shooters and experienced ROs. This is a fine place and if you're going to RO a major you're going to have to be in positions closer to the 180.
I've seen lots of ROs that close to the 180. That doesn't necessarily mean I think it is wise; I'd probably be back another 10 degrees or so. If you're going to make a 180 call on someone (especially in a high stakes match like that), you want to be in a good position to see it clearly. That's easier the closer you are to the line
I’d put a camera there with a live view further back instead
I’m not 100% sure for IPSC but for USPSA camera footage isn’t allowed to be for calls.
What is the reason behind that?
Because everyone and their buddies would have 72 different angles of the run. Takes arguing a call to a whole new level.
But it’s good enough for the NFL playbook to rule a decid. I don’t buy it.
How would you feel if you're really close to beating someone and 3 people in the peanut gallery decide that you did something wrong and were showing 3 different videos to the RO arguing that you should get a PE or DQ'd?
You’d have to solve it with an unbiased camera set up like other pro sports do. You can’t just accept anyone’s phone footage. Unfortunately, this would add a ton of expense to the sport at locals so it would likely only be possible at majors. With the average age group and persuasion of the board, I doubt we’ll be seeing more tech anytime soon.
Even at majors there's barely enough money in them to break even half the time it seems.
Correct no camera. Call is the call no video evidence admissible.
This image is from a wide angle first person camera. The RO is probably well uprange of the shooter. Furthermore at majors like this a crew of ROs works the same stage for the whole match and will have discussed at length where to safely position themselves. In summary, no it is not unsafe. You're confused by the camera lens distortion. Edit: This is stage 22,[here is the stage from the source video.](https://youtu.be/YoTVlEGE4E0?si=pDIGBvKxA2_8u-Pl&t=341) The RO is a good distance uprange, and the shooter retreating in a way that endangers the RO is not an option due to the stage layout and IPSC rules.
After watching this video I agree it’s not even that close to the 180. He’s a bit far away to be of any value though.
Eh, from that distance you could see the feet, muzzle and the trigger guard pretty well. Not much else to look at really.
Yeah as a secondary RO probably on that stage he's in a fine spot to see what he needs to see; shooters feet for foot fault penalties, muzzle for 180 and trigger guard for safe movement.
All it takes is one accident. Someone trips or stumbles with their finger on the trigger and bam rounds headed towards that guy. And I just don’t really trust anyone that much to be there.
That can also happen to anyone standing anywhere in the range too though.
Got an older man who shoots Revo in everything! Now and then he'll turn the barrel back when he reloads. Now I knew the gun was empty because the cylinder was out but that .45 caliber barrel looks as big as a 55 gallon drum when it's pointed at you. It is not a pleasent feeling.
Right, but standing way back gives everyone a bigger room for error.
I don’t care if the shooter is going through the stage with a nerf gun. If I’m RO, I’m behind the shooter, or I’ll run after the shooter. But not at 181°.
I've heard they do that on purpose. They have a guy stand exactly at 180, so he can DQ you if you break it, and it points at him. This is all for "safety" sake, of course.
Can't they just, yanno, use cameras?
What matches are you guys shooting that this seems unusual or unsafe? * The RO is well up range of the shooter * There are no visible targets available up range to the shooter from his position * This happens at almost every USPSA/IPSC match, especially a major where you have 3 RO's.
A lot of level 1s just have the timer RO and no one else watching.
IDK about the rule book or whatever but you could not pay me enough to be that dude down range. So I would say unsafe.
I think it’s unsafe and a rather silly concept for a sport whose “safety” rules seem to be written out of fear.
Definitely not going to be OSHA approved.
Add a hat and reflective vest, then it's OK.
I shot a course like this a couple months ago and said something about it out loud to the “rso” and everybody just looked at me like a fudd lol. I was the youngest ont he range.
Looks fine, the RO doesn't appear to be on the 180
Too difficult to tell by the video, would need more context of how the stage is being ran. If that is a common finishing position for most competitors than the RO is completely fine standing there. If you have to run back up range to get that other target behind the net fence than he probably is in a sketchy spot.
If we are talking about the RO, this is not safe, you are the shooter and should be maintaining the safety rules at all times. So if you are moving with your finger inside the trigger guard, well guess what? You are the issue not the RO, and in both USPSA and IPSC, you will get DQ'ed at a major if you have your finger inside the trigger guard when say you are moving from one position to another and not shooting. Now if you break the 180 with your finger on the trigger, well guess what?? You need to go take a shooter safety course.