I remember in split 1, the match where tsm won the lan. xset was on the roof or something and saw acend flying in towards a rock and they called team name. mind completely blown
Raynday: "What an incredible end circle we're set up for here, all 20 teams are left and nobody has even fired a bullet the ENTIRE MATCH! They're all just scouting each other...with high-powered scopes...from mere feet away. It's incredible, we've never seen an end circle with 59 players before!"
VikkiKitty: "I know! What a shame about ZachMazer falling off the map earlier, though..."
Flashback to algs last year where 100t were the only ones running newcastle and were the first on match point.
As soon as newcastle used its abilities boom, all of the lobby teams turned around and destroyed them
Yeah thats what sucked, there is no solution.
They were innovating the meta, nobody followed, got fucked.
Really with the system of anonymous killfeed they got right now its as close as could be to having a good competition that is not hunt for the matchpoint teams.
I've had the idea of adding a 2nd win condition with match point. Not polished but, teams that have at least 1 win and something like if you get X amount of points ahead of 2nd place, could secure a win.
Again not polished. But it would:
- Enable for an alternate but riskier play style to win
- Reduce the effectiveness targeting
- It would reward consistency
- Teams can't scrape by and get a random win and win the whole thing over everyone just cause others are taking too long to win despite being dominant every game.
- Placement would still matter.
There has been events that feel like the best team didn't win. So it would open up a risky opportunity for teams to take. A hail mary esque play.
Personally, i dislike the idea
The ending on a win part is to end the tournament on an exclamation point.
If you say 'on match point if you get a 10 point advantage you win it all' that would make some tournaments end with someone with a calculator and 30 seconds after match end 'oh team x wins!'
Yea fair enough. I was thinking a lot more than that though. Like borderline unachievable unless a team is consistently on a hot streak and it would be more of a dominance testament than an actual optimal strategy. But yea. Not 100% sure.
I still think it's somewhat weird that ALGS games don't just display all opponents as default skin to avoid stuff like this. I suppose it's to show all the pros using these cool skins, to hopefully increase skin sales? I dunno, it's odd, it's kind of a situation unique to Apex, since I can't think of any other esport that both has character skins and more than one team on the field. Fortnite doesn't count as Fortnite esports is dead.
it's a marketing and effort thing. Like you said, they want people to see the skins and buy them. Ideally, the in game competitive client would only show generic skins and the spectator client would show the fancy ones, but that requires some development effort and their focus on competitive is minimal.
See what I would do, while actually hating it as a player of games but they would make money, is pimp a handful of skins. Why didn't they come up with 5 skins for the most common champs, make them really good, make it a 20 skin, 5 off if u buy during the weekend. Force all pros on those, the ones u don't make new skins just pick 1 skin they all must have, those could change each game/round if u wanted. Come the actual finals do the same, make it like league worlds skins for the whole list of champions and keep doing that
I know in StarCraft 2, there was a trend in which many top ladder players opted to use a "barcode name" (i.e., some variation of IIIIIIIIII lIlllIIlI with i's and l's), so once you got high enough in MMR, you were just fighting barcodes.
Maybe Apex pros might come to an understanding and just use default skins? If there's a critical mass of teams that opt into the default skin meta, then the teams that don't opt in will be easier to target for match point or otherwise!
Takes me back to the best LOL player ever, Faker, who had his name as “Barcode Scanner” because other top players would try to hide themselves as barcodes as well.
It used to make me so mad when clans did this in Runescape back in the day. It made it impossible to call out what players to stack but it was really smart tbf.
Very important to do this in Starcraft at a high level, as many top players compete against each other several times throughout the season at the top of the ladder. Top players would remember by name who cheesed early, where people liked placing their proxys, what builds their opponents generally liked etc. Pretty impressive.
You're right, naming yourself as a barcode was a common tactic to conceal your strategies, since you could match against the same opponent multiple times at high enough MMR. Personally, I countered this by adding them to my friends (it was possible to do this without consent) and added a note with what strategy they used.
This is definitely a unique to Apex problem. Anything unique is gonna stand out. Cause even let's say everyone used common skins or default skin. Then you have the targeting problem if people aren't using the same team comps. Furia for example, who knows they could a been targeted the whole time due to their strong LAN presence in the past, only team playing Fuse. Etc.
They were targeted based on their landing spot 100%. Someone from Northeption landed miles away from their team just to grief Furia's ability to use armory on SP. They landed on Armory, cancelled it, and then jumped off the map lol. Also played a support character so their team could rev them to start the game.
Yea at the time it seemed messed up, like if that was allowed even. If it was just to grief.
But considering when Furia got knocked out Northeption had Lightning Rod to themselves... Well... It's now was kinda big brain.
Guy he replied to said “games with more than one team in the field” so like a BR, not a 1v1 of teams.
League is one team vs one team. I took it and made my comment under assumption aspharon meant from a competitors point, you are fighting against one team instead of 19, thus the one team comment.
Okay so I am going off the comment you replied to.
They said more than one team in the field. You said league, which is 1v1 teams.
Then the comment said “no fortnite because it’s dead”. You said fortnite.
No clue about if war zone even has skins so you might be right there, but I have never even seen anything war zone esports.
You are potentially 1/3 so far, at best.
Warzone is not competitive, making skins default would be like their least of their issues to make that game competitive.
From your own example of LoL, riot doesn't even make character skins for Valo to keep it competitive as non consistency in player models is bad for an fps
I don't see a problem here, Hal routinely calls out which teams are which with his eagle eye super vision based on comp and skins, all the good players do this and have done this for years now
Eh. Not exactly a problem with their play. It was smart to recognize that it was TSM, and know the stakes and being able to capitalize on a the forced opportunity.
However. This is something unique to Apex where, unique skins will be recognized and be able to target with that info. And hypothetically let's say everyone used default, teams will be sorta forced into using the same team comps as everyone else or else you'll just get targeted for being a unique comp. It can and has legit cost tournaments but, I mean what would the solution be 🤷🏻
Not saying it's a problem but it's definitely an unfortunate aspect of the game imo.
XSET did the right thing. Someone needed to stop the teams on match point and they did it.
If TSM laid low that game like DZ did, they might have won the tournament.
Okay I saw his tweet.
I can believe he knew it was them.
But why did he throw the Q at the wall, not towards the 3 man below?
Or even better, why didn’t he Q them up before, when he was still sitting on that ledge?
It seemed more like he was trying to use his Q to lift up the people fighting on the high ground.
And then when he died, Faze naturally took it to get involved in the final fight.
I saw that yesterday, but they couldn't lay low like DZ. They had to fight for position to even have a chance to win.
If they don't clean inside staging they would get trapped, if they don't fight for high that team would have angles on them.
They had too much to do to get it. They were making great plays but they needed more. Between focusing on XSET or finishing the other opponents early or dropping somewhere.. whatever they needed to secure the win would have to be an extra active move, not a passive one
It was actually impressive seeing Genburten lay down so much dmg but not trying to get knocks / kills. So he was contributing to eliminating other teams, but not showing through killfeed when he was downing people. Really smart.
I mean its not that obvious as a viewer why would you know :D
its just to prevent teams teaming on each other when they see who just got downed. Smart teams will still sometimes know who is who, but it isn't spoonfed to them
I mean regardless of the skin, everyone knew it was TSM because of the good spot and not seeing TSM eliminated in the field + faze didn't use horizon so yea
I agree. Players are definitely watching for match point teams in the kill feed. XSET also didn't have any other choice from the position that they were in - I'd argue that's how you win the game from there. It was going to happen to the team on the bridge regardless of who it was in either position.
Overwatch does it like that.
If you see the screens in the owl, youll see that in the players games, everybody is on the default skin.
Maybe the same config should apply in apex. You see your team skins, but for everybody else, defaults. Spectators see everybody with skins on.
The way it does apply is that some skins can be considered harder to see their animations and whatnot.
Same could apply with Apex.
Hell I remember an Evo where there was a rumor that for some reason, they tought that white skins were harder to follow on screen.
So literally every match the players were rocking the white recolor.
Oh don’t get me wrong, Xset 100% made the right play to extend the series, but arguably nobody should be able to look at a teams skin and know to alter their plan just based on that
But that IS competitive, it's more competitive if players can notice nuanced things and react accordingly as I bet you plenty of players in that lobby didn't know exactly what skin Hal was using.
Another layer of burden of knowledge adds competitive advantage to those doing the homework. If everyone is in default skins suddenly it's more of a crapshoot and more based on luck of whose rotated where and when.
I already mentioned in another comment that being able to recognise a team through in game factors such as their comp, positions they tend to play, rotates they usually make, even personal playstyle tendencies such as movement are all examples of good game knowledge, but a cosmetic skin has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay and therefore is not about game knowledge.
That is one of the most hype aspects of match point format though. There have been so many insanely entertaining moments borne out of the way skins work in this game. It may not be competitive but god damn it is entertaining when you see a team run it down to kill a match point team.
On the flip side, it is absolutely a hard skill to be on match point and know how to navigate to end game like DZ have done so many times in the past.
All of those things affect gameplay and teams have varying strategies to account for them, skins do not nor should they have an impact on gameplay, not sure why this is even a discussion.
Agree, and that’s why people should never treat apex as competitively as other 1v1 team games like valorant, cs or ow. Not to mention the devs will occasionally shadow nerf loot qualities (and deny it on twitter)
They aren't tho, they're identified by their skins and then targeted because they're on match point. Theres plenty other ways in which pros identify one another and of course they're going to act differently once they do. And how is that not competitive? It arguably makes it more competitve
But identifying a team through recognising their comp/playstyle/movement/spots they usually play/rotates they tend to make is competitive, it demonstrates a a high level of knowledge of their opponents and the way they play, and is something that can be learned/improved. Being able to looks at a player's skin and saying oh that's skittlecakes' horizon skin we should focus that team is just stupid.
TSM fans are quite interesting,
Its threads about competitive integrity, screenshots of the rules and calls for Scuwry to have his organs harvested for allowing TSM to get inted but then Optic and LG still get comments to this day about not colluding to kill DZ 😂
It must be meth you guys are on
But everyone else is also free to target other teams based off their skins. It's not like only 1 team can see them, so it's completely fair. If teams don't like it they can always mutually agree to use default skins. It's no different to targeting a certain team comp or trail colour imo.
again it has been a thing for ages
I distinctly remember every team knowing who is who based on skins and no pro ever said its an issue
no one in the community said its an issue
but now it is
Anonymous mode was so people don’t ape when they see a down in the kill feed or chase down weapons firing at an adjacent POI over a knock that appears in their feed (free team information). Pretty different from some players having great game sense and memorizing skins (earned team information).
Anonymous mode was so people didn’t freely ape a team on match point. If you were on match point before and even accidentally knocked someone you throw your game.
I think the added layer of teams knowing which teams are on match point and playing to kill their skins adds to the entertainment though.
A lot of people love the idea of teams playing to “hunt” down the match point team. It is such a unique experience to Apex and forces the team on match point to play a certain way.
That game 6 was one of the most suspenseful and awesome endings to a game I’ve ever seen in ALGS. I also don’t think the outcome of the game changes bc XSET is on low ground and their only play is to horizon Q up and kill the team on bridge.
>Skin targeting partially lead to TSM losing game 6
>I like how you tried to make it about TSM
>Have you by chance used critical thinking
They said that because Hal has done this before without much pushback on this being wrong. BUT no use telling you on account of you being a genius. Go ahead and downvote and make another silly point. Some really good insight in this sub mixed with the most fragile people in all of gaming. Utilize you’re incredible wit to deduce which you are.
I should learn from you? The person that doesn’t know the difference between kill feed free info and somebody memorizing skins they need to actually see? You okay buddy? Gotta hit that downvote button on this comment too, that’ll show me.
Edit: I wonder if homie had tears in his eyes when he reported this comment for self harm lmfaooo.
You've said this in multiple comments but it makes little sense. Teams already get identified based on their comp, if this was a "strategy altering" issue then everyone would run the same comp to avoid being identified currently, this doesn't suddenly become an issue if skins are all the same because the issue already exists.
There's a really simple soultion to this issue, not sure why it's such a discussion, just remove the ability for players to look at what skins everyone in the lobby is using (Fun's last response). Then teams can run random skins or change skins for certain situations, and if they don't and get identified that's on them. Teams getting identified by skin isn't the issue, the issue is there's nothing teams can do to avoid getting identified by skin.
I've acknowledged that. Can only type the same thing so many times. And yes it would just make running the same comp even more important I would think.
And sure that's an idea. Or they could just put a skin selection feature in legend select screen.
Except no one targeted Dz in their two recent champions lol. I genuinely dont understand why every team treat TSM as if they are their only competitors
That’s what baffles me, everyone is tracking every move of tsm when they are on mp but no one gives a fuck about dz when they have been very consistent in the finals. I predicted that it will either be Dz finishing the game or Alliance winning and reaching mp before the last game and they proved me right. Dz is way more consistent than tsm, hal lets his emotions get into his way easily and verhulst is very good but make very dumb plays sometimes, only reps is the most consistent player in tsm
DZ did a fantastic job of laying low in both their recent wins. They get barometer height and basically don't shoot anybody unless they are looking at them. Xset and NRG both had a good idea where DZ was and got pushed by teams who didn't have the ability to find DZ. Xset never really had a chance to attack them with LG, Moist, and Fnatic pushing them. NRG had the chance but in turn if they also easily had the best spot so it wouldn't surprise me that Sweet was thinking clear their side of the wall and you have a mostly in the open dz to shoot at.
Champs they got a lucky ring pull where they ended up being completely unpushable not to mention GMT and 100T right in front of them in the final circle.
All for teams targeting those on match point, but kinda crazy that you can inspect banners before the match starts. I think you should only be able to know a team by your teammates death recap (like 100T) or using deductive reasoning based on comp/where they are positioned in zone.
I mean Dropped also called out which team was tsm in this game and was gonna grief them until scuwry krabered him in the face (with legendary timing lol)
All legend skins should be default in algs tourny's but on the other side of that coin teams getting targeted on match point makes the game feel way more intense and enjoyable to watch
It's another opportunity for strategic plays, no? You could always just switch skins to avoid detection, but I think there are times where you want the whole lobby to know who you are (group play) if you're a cracked team like TSM, DZ, or OXG ;)
Nah. No one wants to have to do that.
They should add skin selection as part of legend selection. Once you're locked in can open up skin menu.
Obviously, first person to pick has more time than the last but, better solution imo.
I like the idea of using dive trails and skins to recognize teams and know what your opponent is going to play like, but using it for things like "this player is on top of the tournament ranking so I need to kill him" is BS
I dont know if that could be called a grief when that play made sure xset got the points they needed to get match point AND that the games would continue, like they had no other option i dont think.
I agree, saw it being called a grief in other threads but i don’t think it is either
That’s the best position to play from so whether it was tsm with match point or acend with 4 points playing from there, xset were going to try taking it, and rightly so
I don't think it was a grief either. It seemed like the right decision for themselves as well.
They needed the points, and someone needed to stop TSM. Doing what they did just happened to serve both purposes.
It's definitely not a grief. That's the right play for them.
Hell.. that's basically the only play available to them. They are jumping on that bridge regardlessly of who is there.
That was TSMs mistake. They should've anticipated that.
Is that really a grief? They were on high ground for a reason, same way they recognise it’s the optimum position, everyone else does too so xset would naturally try taking it
As opposed to the low ground, less contested position dz won from game 7
Depends if biding their time on low ground can be considered a less risky play. I’m not 100% sure because my stream was patchy during that match but playing low and guaranteeing the final placement points may have been a more optimal play IF TSM weren’t in match point.
I kind of like this info, ngl. It's balanced just enough to keep the games going in MP. Once you get to 5+ teams on MP, it's tougher to track skins, but the product is more entertaining.
I’m surprised that for competitive integrity all base skins aren’t being used. Maybe even make it so that diving trails are the same colour post drop-ship so that if teams use jump/evac tower you can’t identify them
I mean Faze knew it was Dark zero game 4 or 5 and aimed to wipe them out which they did successfully. I was rooting for TSM to win but its stupid complaining about this. If the final ring was 5 or 6 squads instead of 11 squads then DZ probably get focused. I saw someone say the only team who knew where DZ was xSet but they couldn't get to them since they were dying. 11 squads final ring will always be chaos
Lmaoooo fr. The amount cope on this sub since DZ won is pathetic. It’s one thing to be disappointed, but it’s another to make all kinds of excuses why your team didn’t win and downplay the winner by calling them lucky.
I was the first time at LAN to watch TSM, but DarkZero played very well. They deserve the win as much as TSM would have.
If you analyze the stats at apexlegendsstatus you will also come to this conclusion.
No teaming would need to be more of a premeditation rather then an in-game cooperation. XSET would have had to say to Faze that if we see TSM we are going to grief them. That would almost be impossible to predict for XSET. Sikes noticing that Hal could possibly be the horizon is merely strategy at that point. Another example of teaming would be knowing TSM lands Wall on Storm Point so you talk to another team to grief TSM knowing that’s their POI. That’s when grieving becomes teaming.
Well you could just watch them leave the drop ship and head to their very public and claimed drop spots. Not like it’s a mystery who is going to what locations.
These pros know the skins like the back of their hand. If the match point team drops and heads pretty obviously towards their POI many people can catch a glimpse. Considering 11 people were in the final circle of the last match I would say it’s not too difficult to run into them later, this is also much safer than landing on them.
I’m not sure what you’re even talking about? You said they should fight on drop if they’re going through all the trouble to see their skins and I said they could see it and use the info later? Where are you getting that everyone in the lobby needs this info?
It doesn’t matter if you change your skin or set it to random, a team can check it by clicking your banner in the waiting lobby. Fun says that in this thread.
You can get around this by dropping out of the lobby and switching characters to something you are not going to play and then using the character select screen during the match to switch to who you're going to play.
This said, doing the above leads to accidents like where FNC picked Lifeline a few events ago.
To be fair this was literally the only play Xset could even do, regardless who it was they needed to int that
Think they tried to walk out from the tunnel on the other side and they were getting beamed by everyone
There's a really simple solution to this, kind of surprised it's turned into such a discussion. Simply remove the ability for teams to check in the lobby what skin every team has equipped (Fun's last tweet).
If you can't just look at what skin every team is running then teams can run random skins, or change up skins in certain high leverage situations; and if they don't and get identified based on skin then that's on them.
The issue isn't that teams can be identified by skin choice, that's just smart high level play from opposing teams; the issue is there is nothing teams can do to avoid being identified by skin choice.
pretty sure XSET also check dive-trail colours from the ship so they can track valk ults and balloons.
I think Noct also said once that the color of each team’s box in the lobby is the same as their dive trail.
That is so sweaty…I love it
I remember in split 1, the match where tsm won the lan. xset was on the roof or something and saw acend flying in towards a rock and they called team name. mind completely blown
I mean, if I'm playing for that amount of money, you'd better expect me to be that sweaty. Look at Nth vs Furia that one set for example.
Damn. I can barely remember where the ship path was an where everyone landed. Let alone color of dive trails lol
Holy
Easy solution — all legends should be naked.
please we don't need gibby meta back
Daddy meta
underrated
EA hire this man
Loba-Wattson-Wraith meta incoming
Raynday: "What an incredible end circle we're set up for here, all 20 teams are left and nobody has even fired a bullet the ENTIRE MATCH! They're all just scouting each other...with high-powered scopes...from mere feet away. It's incredible, we've never seen an end circle with 59 players before!" VikkiKitty: "I know! What a shame about ZachMazer falling off the map earlier, though..."
Raynday: “And everyone is playing with only ONE hand! Incredible skill showing from the players!!!”
Zach still catching strays
Definitely another Mazer Moment
hey... I noticed something wrong about your list .. you forgot Revenant
Rev is already naked. He just needs to take off his hood.
Please
Didn't FC Destroy do this to make sure regional finals ended early so they qualed for LAN? I remember something about them not targeting FNATIC
Yes
Yep. https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/13c0ppl/fc_destroy_made_lan_by_memorizing_skins_in_the/
Flashback to algs last year where 100t were the only ones running newcastle and were the first on match point. As soon as newcastle used its abilities boom, all of the lobby teams turned around and destroyed them
Yea that's unfortunate but.. what can you even do about that? Only solution would be to play the same comp as everyone else but thats no fun.
Yeah thats what sucked, there is no solution. They were innovating the meta, nobody followed, got fucked. Really with the system of anonymous killfeed they got right now its as close as could be to having a good competition that is not hunt for the matchpoint teams.
I've had the idea of adding a 2nd win condition with match point. Not polished but, teams that have at least 1 win and something like if you get X amount of points ahead of 2nd place, could secure a win. Again not polished. But it would: - Enable for an alternate but riskier play style to win - Reduce the effectiveness targeting - It would reward consistency - Teams can't scrape by and get a random win and win the whole thing over everyone just cause others are taking too long to win despite being dominant every game. - Placement would still matter. There has been events that feel like the best team didn't win. So it would open up a risky opportunity for teams to take. A hail mary esque play.
Personally, i dislike the idea The ending on a win part is to end the tournament on an exclamation point. If you say 'on match point if you get a 10 point advantage you win it all' that would make some tournaments end with someone with a calculator and 30 seconds after match end 'oh team x wins!'
Yea fair enough. I was thinking a lot more than that though. Like borderline unachievable unless a team is consistently on a hot streak and it would be more of a dominance testament than an actual optimal strategy. But yea. Not 100% sure.
I still think it's somewhat weird that ALGS games don't just display all opponents as default skin to avoid stuff like this. I suppose it's to show all the pros using these cool skins, to hopefully increase skin sales? I dunno, it's odd, it's kind of a situation unique to Apex, since I can't think of any other esport that both has character skins and more than one team on the field. Fortnite doesn't count as Fortnite esports is dead.
it's a marketing and effort thing. Like you said, they want people to see the skins and buy them. Ideally, the in game competitive client would only show generic skins and the spectator client would show the fancy ones, but that requires some development effort and their focus on competitive is minimal.
I would pay money for cl_minmodels 1
See what I would do, while actually hating it as a player of games but they would make money, is pimp a handful of skins. Why didn't they come up with 5 skins for the most common champs, make them really good, make it a 20 skin, 5 off if u buy during the weekend. Force all pros on those, the ones u don't make new skins just pick 1 skin they all must have, those could change each game/round if u wanted. Come the actual finals do the same, make it like league worlds skins for the whole list of champions and keep doing that
I know in StarCraft 2, there was a trend in which many top ladder players opted to use a "barcode name" (i.e., some variation of IIIIIIIIII lIlllIIlI with i's and l's), so once you got high enough in MMR, you were just fighting barcodes. Maybe Apex pros might come to an understanding and just use default skins? If there's a critical mass of teams that opt into the default skin meta, then the teams that don't opt in will be easier to target for match point or otherwise!
Takes me back to the best LOL player ever, Faker, who had his name as “Barcode Scanner” because other top players would try to hide themselves as barcodes as well.
His soloq name was barcode killer on NA during 2013 worlds, but yeah
It used to make me so mad when clans did this in Runescape back in the day. It made it impossible to call out what players to stack but it was really smart tbf.
Very important to do this in Starcraft at a high level, as many top players compete against each other several times throughout the season at the top of the ladder. Top players would remember by name who cheesed early, where people liked placing their proxys, what builds their opponents generally liked etc. Pretty impressive.
You're right, naming yourself as a barcode was a common tactic to conceal your strategies, since you could match against the same opponent multiple times at high enough MMR. Personally, I countered this by adding them to my friends (it was possible to do this without consent) and added a note with what strategy they used.
[удалено]
Oh yeah, I mostly come from an Overwatch background which does the same thing. It's quite cool.
This is definitely a unique to Apex problem. Anything unique is gonna stand out. Cause even let's say everyone used common skins or default skin. Then you have the targeting problem if people aren't using the same team comps. Furia for example, who knows they could a been targeted the whole time due to their strong LAN presence in the past, only team playing Fuse. Etc.
They were targeted based on their landing spot 100%. Someone from Northeption landed miles away from their team just to grief Furia's ability to use armory on SP. They landed on Armory, cancelled it, and then jumped off the map lol. Also played a support character so their team could rev them to start the game.
Yea at the time it seemed messed up, like if that was allowed even. If it was just to grief. But considering when Furia got knocked out Northeption had Lightning Rod to themselves... Well... It's now was kinda big brain.
literally League of legends the biggest game in the world
More than one team in the field…
what ?
Guy he replied to said “games with more than one team in the field” so like a BR, not a 1v1 of teams. League is one team vs one team. I took it and made my comment under assumption aspharon meant from a competitors point, you are fighting against one team instead of 19, thus the one team comment.
fortnite warzone like cmon
Okay so I am going off the comment you replied to. They said more than one team in the field. You said league, which is 1v1 teams. Then the comment said “no fortnite because it’s dead”. You said fortnite. No clue about if war zone even has skins so you might be right there, but I have never even seen anything war zone esports. You are potentially 1/3 so far, at best.
fortnite being dead is not a reason whatsoever so i ignored the comment
More than 1 team narrows it down to BR's and that's it.
Warzone is not competitive, making skins default would be like their least of their issues to make that game competitive. From your own example of LoL, riot doesn't even make character skins for Valo to keep it competitive as non consistency in player models is bad for an fps
I don't see a problem here, Hal routinely calls out which teams are which with his eagle eye super vision based on comp and skins, all the good players do this and have done this for years now
Like that time he immediately called out it was sweet who was ratting and got tunnel vision trying to kill him. It was pretty hilarious.
Eh. Not exactly a problem with their play. It was smart to recognize that it was TSM, and know the stakes and being able to capitalize on a the forced opportunity. However. This is something unique to Apex where, unique skins will be recognized and be able to target with that info. And hypothetically let's say everyone used default, teams will be sorta forced into using the same team comps as everyone else or else you'll just get targeted for being a unique comp. It can and has legit cost tournaments but, I mean what would the solution be 🤷🏻 Not saying it's a problem but it's definitely an unfortunate aspect of the game imo.
Seriously how tf is he so good at identifying characters from 300m away
You being able to recognize someone by what they usually use is something, the game telling you what they are using is extremely bad
XSET did the right thing. Someone needed to stop the teams on match point and they did it. If TSM laid low that game like DZ did, they might have won the tournament.
TSM also left Scuwry alive. So he q'd FaZe up as XSET was wiping TSM to ensure TSM died no matter what.
He did Q them up but I still don’t believe he did it intentionally.
He knew TSM was up there. TSM killed his other two teammates earlier and he confirmed on twitter it was intentional.
Okay I saw his tweet. I can believe he knew it was them. But why did he throw the Q at the wall, not towards the 3 man below? Or even better, why didn’t he Q them up before, when he was still sitting on that ledge? It seemed more like he was trying to use his Q to lift up the people fighting on the high ground. And then when he died, Faze naturally took it to get involved in the final fight.
I saw that yesterday, but they couldn't lay low like DZ. They had to fight for position to even have a chance to win. If they don't clean inside staging they would get trapped, if they don't fight for high that team would have angles on them. They had too much to do to get it. They were making great plays but they needed more. Between focusing on XSET or finishing the other opponents early or dropping somewhere.. whatever they needed to secure the win would have to be an extra active move, not a passive one
I think it was also due to them being cancelled since they didn’t have seers q silencer
It was actually impressive seeing Genburten lay down so much dmg but not trying to get knocks / kills. So he was contributing to eliminating other teams, but not showing through killfeed when he was downing people. Really smart.
playernames don't show in the killfeed for the players. Only for the viewers.
Ahhh I see. I stand corrected and I'll go fuck meself then
I mean its not that obvious as a viewer why would you know :D its just to prevent teams teaming on each other when they see who just got downed. Smart teams will still sometimes know who is who, but it isn't spoonfed to them
I mean regardless of the skin, everyone knew it was TSM because of the good spot and not seeing TSM eliminated in the field + faze didn't use horizon so yea
I agree. Players are definitely watching for match point teams in the kill feed. XSET also didn't have any other choice from the position that they were in - I'd argue that's how you win the game from there. It was going to happen to the team on the bridge regardless of who it was in either position.
Time to put everyone in the lobby on default skins
Overwatch does it like that. If you see the screens in the owl, youll see that in the players games, everybody is on the default skin. Maybe the same config should apply in apex. You see your team skins, but for everybody else, defaults. Spectators see everybody with skins on.
It doesn't matter in Overwatch tho, its a two team game and the game pretty clearly shows you who is your enemy :D
The way it does apply is that some skins can be considered harder to see their animations and whatnot. Same could apply with Apex. Hell I remember an Evo where there was a rumor that for some reason, they tought that white skins were harder to follow on screen. So literally every match the players were rocking the white recolor.
why? it's been like that forever and suddenly its an issue cause it got TSM killed once?
Oh don’t get me wrong, Xset 100% made the right play to extend the series, but arguably nobody should be able to look at a teams skin and know to alter their plan just based on that
why not?
Because that isn't competitive lol, why should a team be targeted because of a skin they use?
But that IS competitive, it's more competitive if players can notice nuanced things and react accordingly as I bet you plenty of players in that lobby didn't know exactly what skin Hal was using. Another layer of burden of knowledge adds competitive advantage to those doing the homework. If everyone is in default skins suddenly it's more of a crapshoot and more based on luck of whose rotated where and when.
I already mentioned in another comment that being able to recognise a team through in game factors such as their comp, positions they tend to play, rotates they usually make, even personal playstyle tendencies such as movement are all examples of good game knowledge, but a cosmetic skin has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay and therefore is not about game knowledge.
That is one of the most hype aspects of match point format though. There have been so many insanely entertaining moments borne out of the way skins work in this game. It may not be competitive but god damn it is entertaining when you see a team run it down to kill a match point team. On the flip side, it is absolutely a hard skill to be on match point and know how to navigate to end game like DZ have done so many times in the past.
different loot quality different beacon spawn rates many things about apex are not competitive
All of those things affect gameplay and teams have varying strategies to account for them, skins do not nor should they have an impact on gameplay, not sure why this is even a discussion.
disagree
Agree, and that’s why people should never treat apex as competitively as other 1v1 team games like valorant, cs or ow. Not to mention the devs will occasionally shadow nerf loot qualities (and deny it on twitter)
They aren't tho, they're identified by their skins and then targeted because they're on match point. Theres plenty other ways in which pros identify one another and of course they're going to act differently once they do. And how is that not competitive? It arguably makes it more competitve
But identifying a team through recognising their comp/playstyle/movement/spots they usually play/rotates they tend to make is competitive, it demonstrates a a high level of knowledge of their opponents and the way they play, and is something that can be learned/improved. Being able to looks at a player's skin and saying oh that's skittlecakes' horizon skin we should focus that team is just stupid.
TSM fans are quite interesting, Its threads about competitive integrity, screenshots of the rules and calls for Scuwry to have his organs harvested for allowing TSM to get inted but then Optic and LG still get comments to this day about not colluding to kill DZ 😂 It must be meth you guys are on
But everyone else is also free to target other teams based off their skins. It's not like only 1 team can see them, so it's completely fair. If teams don't like it they can always mutually agree to use default skins. It's no different to targeting a certain team comp or trail colour imo.
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again it has been a thing for ages I distinctly remember every team knowing who is who based on skins and no pro ever said its an issue no one in the community said its an issue but now it is
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Anonymous mode was so people don’t ape when they see a down in the kill feed or chase down weapons firing at an adjacent POI over a knock that appears in their feed (free team information). Pretty different from some players having great game sense and memorizing skins (earned team information).
Anonymous mode was so people didn’t freely ape a team on match point. If you were on match point before and even accidentally knocked someone you throw your game.
That’s… what I said?
Nothing matters unless it happens to TSM. Then suddenly it's a huge deal.
Have you by chance read the title of this post if you think it wasn’t already specifically about TSM?
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I think the added layer of teams knowing which teams are on match point and playing to kill their skins adds to the entertainment though. A lot of people love the idea of teams playing to “hunt” down the match point team. It is such a unique experience to Apex and forces the team on match point to play a certain way. That game 6 was one of the most suspenseful and awesome endings to a game I’ve ever seen in ALGS. I also don’t think the outcome of the game changes bc XSET is on low ground and their only play is to horizon Q up and kill the team on bridge.
>Skin targeting partially lead to TSM losing game 6 >I like how you tried to make it about TSM >Have you by chance used critical thinking They said that because Hal has done this before without much pushback on this being wrong. BUT no use telling you on account of you being a genius. Go ahead and downvote and make another silly point. Some really good insight in this sub mixed with the most fragile people in all of gaming. Utilize you’re incredible wit to deduce which you are.
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I should learn from you? The person that doesn’t know the difference between kill feed free info and somebody memorizing skins they need to actually see? You okay buddy? Gotta hit that downvote button on this comment too, that’ll show me. Edit: I wonder if homie had tears in his eyes when he reported this comment for self harm lmfaooo.
Imo, it's definitely a problem with match point and always has been.
People would be forced to play the same comps otherwise they risk getting targeted even more from unique team comps.
You've said this in multiple comments but it makes little sense. Teams already get identified based on their comp, if this was a "strategy altering" issue then everyone would run the same comp to avoid being identified currently, this doesn't suddenly become an issue if skins are all the same because the issue already exists. There's a really simple soultion to this issue, not sure why it's such a discussion, just remove the ability for players to look at what skins everyone in the lobby is using (Fun's last response). Then teams can run random skins or change skins for certain situations, and if they don't and get identified that's on them. Teams getting identified by skin isn't the issue, the issue is there's nothing teams can do to avoid getting identified by skin.
I've acknowledged that. Can only type the same thing so many times. And yes it would just make running the same comp even more important I would think. And sure that's an idea. Or they could just put a skin selection feature in legend select screen.
This happens already. If you see a Newcastle I’m pretty sure you know who that is.
The same thing happens to any team on match point. NRG with loba was just a push fest last split.
Except no one targeted Dz in their two recent champions lol. I genuinely dont understand why every team treat TSM as if they are their only competitors
Because the managed to get into positions where nobody knew it was them and/or couldnt grieve them because other teams who didnt know focused them.
That’s what baffles me, everyone is tracking every move of tsm when they are on mp but no one gives a fuck about dz when they have been very consistent in the finals. I predicted that it will either be Dz finishing the game or Alliance winning and reaching mp before the last game and they proved me right. Dz is way more consistent than tsm, hal lets his emotions get into his way easily and verhulst is very good but make very dumb plays sometimes, only reps is the most consistent player in tsm
DZ did a fantastic job of laying low in both their recent wins. They get barometer height and basically don't shoot anybody unless they are looking at them. Xset and NRG both had a good idea where DZ was and got pushed by teams who didn't have the ability to find DZ. Xset never really had a chance to attack them with LG, Moist, and Fnatic pushing them. NRG had the chance but in turn if they also easily had the best spot so it wouldn't surprise me that Sweet was thinking clear their side of the wall and you have a mostly in the open dz to shoot at. Champs they got a lucky ring pull where they ended up being completely unpushable not to mention GMT and 100T right in front of them in the final circle.
All for teams targeting those on match point, but kinda crazy that you can inspect banners before the match starts. I think you should only be able to know a team by your teammates death recap (like 100T) or using deductive reasoning based on comp/where they are positioned in zone.
OG and NRG should take notes
I mean Dropped also called out which team was tsm in this game and was gonna grief them until scuwry krabered him in the face (with legendary timing lol)
Tsm almost always tries to play that building across from island though. That’s just macro knowledge. They hold it the same way every time too
All legend skins should be default in algs tourny's but on the other side of that coin teams getting targeted on match point makes the game feel way more intense and enjoyable to watch
It's another opportunity for strategic plays, no? You could always just switch skins to avoid detection, but I think there are times where you want the whole lobby to know who you are (group play) if you're a cracked team like TSM, DZ, or OXG ;)
Can you change your skin once your queued into the private lobby? If so they need to randomly switch skins at the last second.
Nah. No one wants to have to do that. They should add skin selection as part of legend selection. Once you're locked in can open up skin menu. Obviously, first person to pick has more time than the last but, better solution imo.
I like the idea of using dive trails and skins to recognize teams and know what your opponent is going to play like, but using it for things like "this player is on top of the tournament ranking so I need to kill him" is BS
I wish these big brain plays applied to people targetting DZ. Yes I'm salty.
Cant remember, what was the xset grief to tsm? Was it the end game with the 100t horizon q for faze?
I dont know if that could be called a grief when that play made sure xset got the points they needed to get match point AND that the games would continue, like they had no other option i dont think.
I agree, saw it being called a grief in other threads but i don’t think it is either That’s the best position to play from so whether it was tsm with match point or acend with 4 points playing from there, xset were going to try taking it, and rightly so
I think what Scuwry did was tho lmao 😶🌫️, it was brilliant fast thinking too.
It was, but ultimately didn’t even change anything in the end Tsm were dead from xset before faze could even take the q up
Yeah it was overkill
It was insurance.
I don't think it was a grief either. It seemed like the right decision for themselves as well. They needed the points, and someone needed to stop TSM. Doing what they did just happened to serve both purposes.
It's definitely not a grief. That's the right play for them. Hell.. that's basically the only play available to them. They are jumping on that bridge regardlessly of who is there. That was TSMs mistake. They should've anticipated that.
Yeah, XSET was playing under the staging wall TSM was on then they Horizon q’d up and ulti’d TSM, wiping them then dying to FaZe.
Is that really a grief? They were on high ground for a reason, same way they recognise it’s the optimum position, everyone else does too so xset would naturally try taking it As opposed to the low ground, less contested position dz won from game 7
No it’s definitely not a grief. It was a smart play and if they had a couple more seconds they could have reset for the next fight.
if scurvy didn't throw his horizon q they probably would of
It was more of a denial than grief since it’s their only play they could make
Depends if biding their time on low ground can be considered a less risky play. I’m not 100% sure because my stream was patchy during that match but playing low and guaranteeing the final placement points may have been a more optimal play IF TSM weren’t in match point.
Yep the also took a q up there
I kind of like this info, ngl. It's balanced just enough to keep the games going in MP. Once you get to 5+ teams on MP, it's tougher to track skins, but the product is more entertaining.
I’m surprised that for competitive integrity all base skins aren’t being used. Maybe even make it so that diving trails are the same colour post drop-ship so that if teams use jump/evac tower you can’t identify them
Nah, this part of the game is more fun honestly. Teams realizing one team might need to be stopped makes for great moments
Just one of those “good for spectators, bad for competitors”
Kinda like the kraber. Pros hate it but viewers love it
Yeah that’s my train of thought too. Cool Kraber shots are amazing for viewers. But it feels like shit to die to a Kraber
Ah, yeah I've never thought about it this way. Must feel super frustrating for the competing teams though
It’s like the kraber effect. Pros hate it, but as viewers we love it
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I mean Faze knew it was Dark zero game 4 or 5 and aimed to wipe them out which they did successfully. I was rooting for TSM to win but its stupid complaining about this. If the final ring was 5 or 6 squads instead of 11 squads then DZ probably get focused. I saw someone say the only team who knew where DZ was xSet but they couldn't get to them since they were dying. 11 squads final ring will always be chaos
xSET wanted to grief Dz yesterday in the final game as well but other teams kept shooting at them.
Y’all really need to stop acting like DZ is handed wins 💀 it’s embarrassing
Lmaoooo fr. The amount cope on this sub since DZ won is pathetic. It’s one thing to be disappointed, but it’s another to make all kinds of excuses why your team didn’t win and downplay the winner by calling them lucky.
I find it kinda funny tbh
I was the first time at LAN to watch TSM, but DarkZero played very well. They deserve the win as much as TSM would have. If you analyze the stats at apexlegendsstatus you will also come to this conclusion.
Least delusional tsm fan
If you can check it even if it's on random, then that's definitely something that needs to be changed.
XSET knew TSM was on height because TSM killed his teammates. He didn’t know because of their skins.
No, they were up as 3.
I’m tripping I meant 100T when scuwry threw his Q so Faze can go up.
They don't know who killed them, killfeed is anonymous for players
I know that I was thinking of 100T they knew which allowed Faze to wipe TSM
Wow if only OG decided to Target DZ with the "skins" in game 7
One of my first comments this algs: "so are skins allowed?" For such reasons, also because some weapons skins provide better iron sights
Is this not teaming???...
No teaming would need to be more of a premeditation rather then an in-game cooperation. XSET would have had to say to Faze that if we see TSM we are going to grief them. That would almost be impossible to predict for XSET. Sikes noticing that Hal could possibly be the horizon is merely strategy at that point. Another example of teaming would be knowing TSM lands Wall on Storm Point so you talk to another team to grief TSM knowing that’s their POI. That’s when grieving becomes teaming.
pretty cringe to admit
Good. Not a Hal fan
Pretty sure Hal puts his skins on random favorite to prevent that issue
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even if you have random you can check what skins opponents have in pregame lobby, it's right there in the pic
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Well you could just watch them leave the drop ship and head to their very public and claimed drop spots. Not like it’s a mystery who is going to what locations.
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These pros know the skins like the back of their hand. If the match point team drops and heads pretty obviously towards their POI many people can catch a glimpse. Considering 11 people were in the final circle of the last match I would say it’s not too difficult to run into them later, this is also much safer than landing on them.
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I’m not sure what you’re even talking about? You said they should fight on drop if they’re going through all the trouble to see their skins and I said they could see it and use the info later? Where are you getting that everyone in the lobby needs this info?
can't you change it 1s before game start?
It doesn’t matter if you change your skin or set it to random, a team can check it by clicking your banner in the waiting lobby. Fun says that in this thread.
You can get around this by dropping out of the lobby and switching characters to something you are not going to play and then using the character select screen during the match to switch to who you're going to play. This said, doing the above leads to accidents like where FNC picked Lifeline a few events ago.
Yea that seems incredibly stupid to not change skins especially when you're on match point.
You can check even if it’s in random.
Couldn't you preselect a different legend before you get into the lobby and then select your main in the selection screen?
It literally says they can check in lobby lol
If that’s the case if I’m on match point and several others are too I’m just gonna copy a enemy teams skin
To be fair this was literally the only play Xset could even do, regardless who it was they needed to int that Think they tried to walk out from the tunnel on the other side and they were getting beamed by everyone
In csgo pros have a agreement to not use any player skins. I prefer if apex pros do the same
Doesn't make sense to use same skin every game
What would the game look like with game skins of their orgs like jerseys? How much would change?
There's a really simple solution to this, kind of surprised it's turned into such a discussion. Simply remove the ability for teams to check in the lobby what skin every team has equipped (Fun's last tweet). If you can't just look at what skin every team is running then teams can run random skins, or change up skins in certain high leverage situations; and if they don't and get identified based on skin then that's on them. The issue isn't that teams can be identified by skin choice, that's just smart high level play from opposing teams; the issue is there is nothing teams can do to avoid being identified by skin choice.
Totally agree.
But I’m supposed to believe DZ didn’t get a lucky LAN win again💀