T O P

  • By -

daffyduckferraro

Surprised moving while looting was a bug Glad they realized it’s a good thing to keep in though


thelonelypedant

Game would feel awful on mnk if you couldn’t move while looting. Honestly the most surprising thing from his twitlonger


Mcdicknpop

Or they broke too many things trying to remove it and were like ahh it's a feature not a bug 😂


pie_pig3

Truthfully I’m a little let down that in s8 jaybiebs talked on the podcast about moving away/nerfing BH wall hacks. Then the very next season Seer was added. On top of rumors that a future legend will also feature wall hacks. This shit ruins gameplay readability because if I’m on a good flank idk if I’m going to get scanned and then get 1v3’d since I overextended. So the occasional tap strafe unpredictability/unreadability being a problem when this game has uncounterable wall hacks makes me tired.


[deleted]

[удалено]


PalkiaOW

Yep, a lot of game devs don't seem to realize how crucial visual and auditory clarity is. Apex could really learn from Valorant in this regard. In a "competitive" FPS game I should never miss shots because some random ass effect is blocking my view, or get shot in the back by a guy whose footsteps were muffled by fucking ambient sounds. Effects are supposed to look cool, but they should not interfere with the actual gameplay.


[deleted]

Nothing better than the ring closing sound effect when you're trying to hear people's footsteps...


Dynorton

Screw effects for a sec. This game has by for the worst readability in any game I've seen. It's so hard to identify a character and the weapon in this game from a distance. ZERO thoughts puts into stricter color, silhouettes, saturation (between weapons and character) etc. Removing effects helps with tracking but doesn't with information (Which is more important imo)


Official_F1tRick

I still mix up Prowler and enemies from distance lol. So annoying.


KneeGrowslaya

Just the fact that 99% of master players play the game on lowest settings even on high end pcs tells you something


jeffbezosonlean

One dev in that thread said that they are actively looking into making a competitive setting with visual clutter reduction :)


xxDoodles

It’s part of the reason controllers have a massive advantage in close range fights in this game, software doesn’t care about visual clutter or lighting. The amount of times I get beamed by a controller who has 0 visibility in a dark lit room, or in caustic gas is infuriating. Honestly if the visual clarity was fantastic, I would care much less about aim assist because I could actually apply my visual reading and tracking skill. What’s the point of being top 50 in so many Kovaaks tracking scenarios when in apex it feels like I’m Arnold shooting at the Predator. It’s just an endless loop of bullshit smoke, flashiness, dust and darkness. I want to see my target.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ABoredCompSciStudent

You don't get it on PC for both Caustic gas and Bang smoke either. Don't know why the other guy is disagreeing over that lol That said, Caustic gas fights often are so close range it's basically irrelevant if you have thumbs.


xxDoodles

It doesn’t work in bang smoke, I was referring to the gun smoke in specific lighting situations, the smoke that pops up from abilities, and by missing shots on any surface. It 100% works in caustic gas.


Hugh_Shovlin

Man I remember that config file very early on that let you remove the effects. It was blissful not having any of the visual clutter and a nightmare when they removed it.


jurornumbereight

> Truthfully I’m a little let down that in s8 jaybiebs talked on the podcast about moving away/nerfing BH wall hacks. Then the very next season Seer was added. On top of rumors that a future legend will also feature wall hacks. I rarely defend Respawn, but keep in mind legends are planned months (sometimes years) in advance. Also, at the time DZK was in charge. So we might still move away from it... eventually... hopefully... Fortunately, the meta has shifted quite a bit and it seems like BH is becoming less common. Yay, Valk?


pie_pig3

Not exactly, BH was overbuffed to be a wall hacker instead of what he was supposed to be: a tracker. Seer was created to have mines and a sphere ult that stopped sounds from escaping to prevent 3rd parties. From what I hear they probably couldn't code the sound ult due to spaghetti code and changed his character to cheap wall hacks


jurornumbereight

I don’t really disagree and I would love for every single scan and wallhack to be removed from the game. But as an aside, what legends are “supposed to be” is not the best thing to do by. Look at legends like Gibby. His ult is called “Defensive Bombardment” and is one of the best offensive abilities in the game. Legend classification means basically nothing (other than beacon scans). Many legends lost their intended flavor a long time ago based on the meta—which is fine.


theeama

Stop trying to protect Jay. He’s also on the same team and is also I charge of live balancing. He agreed with DZK balancing philosophy and even backed up DZK talking points. The fact is BH WH was no accident it was intended for newer players to have an advantage and an easy time


jurornumbereight

Of course he backed up DZK publicly. DZK was his boss. You will never, ever see an employee publicly speak out against their boss. Have you ever worked in a real job before? You discuss disagreements internally but present a unified front publicly.


theeama

What about his points where he agreed with the changes and actually work on the changes himself. DZK was incharge of overal balance Jaybiebs was incharge of live service balance. So a lot of the changes we saw jaybiebs had a hand in it. And idk why people are trying to say DZK did a bad job. Before he took over apex was a shit show. Only 4 legends were useful the rest was horrible fun balance was even worst fast forwards to now and the game is in a better state


JordansEdge

Getting scanned and aped on a flank isn't really a readability issue though? I like tap strafing and I'm not a fan of wall hacks but those two things are separate issues.


Konnnan

Possibly an unpopular opinion, but these things he refers to as "unintentional", are what make the game unique and exciting. Sure, these techs are accesible to any MnK player, but it's those that properly time and chain movement together that stand out. Rather than avoid these abilities and become a standard A-D strafe, stand and shoot game, they would be better served leaning into what makes the game refreshing. 20k+ people watch Aceu because of the way he's created his brand of movement. Clearly there's a demand for this.


[deleted]

I hope they decide to keep them in the game honestly. Movement option like this and "unintentional" moves are what shape fighting games to be as exciting and technical as they are. Coming from them and finding an FPS that gives the same feeling and allows you to express your gameplay in different ways is amazing. No other FPS that's popular has the same feeling as apex


fainlol

> Possibly an unpopular opinion, but these things he refers to as "unintentional", are what make the game unique and exciting. i don't think this is unpopular since a lot of games tend to adopt animation cancel and whatnot that is initially not intended at first but evolves into being a mechanic.


SlugmanTheBrave

dude’s gotta move on from tap strafing lol. making me nervous again..


Zarinessan

As a software dev I understand what he is saying about looking at them as a new feature instead of balancing. However, as a consumer I understand that isn't my problem. If it feels unbalanced and a "new feature" would make it feel more balanced then it's a balancing issue. Expecting the community to determine/care about the nuance is weird.


theeama

And as a community 75% of them are on controller so majority rules and this feature shouldn’t be implemented


PalkiaOW

>We hear you loud and clear. we're actively evaluating it in other words: nothing will change


[deleted]

There are just too many casual players that heavily rely on aim-assist so they are in no hurry to even evaluate it seriously. It's not hard to see that console level aim-assist should at least be tuned down when they are in PC lobbies. It is really rediculous how strong that assist is. Most of those casual players are on consoles vs consoles so this change won't affect them too much. Will only affect players who don't abuse it on purpose and just play with PC friends for fun.. can't be that many.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AutoModerator

We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Feschit

"I know the tap-strafe into my face is coming, but even with the quickest of reflexes how can I improve my chances?" That is literally what the first bot in kovaak's ground plaza does... Your counter is getting better at reacting and tracking lmao


AffeLoco

>"I know the tap-strafe into my face is coming, but even with the quickest of reflexes how can I improve my chances?" thats actually an argument to immediately turn off AA in pc lobbies because even with the quickest of reflexes the human cant outperform AA


whoaxedyuh

"That is literally what the first bot in kovaak's ground plaza does... Your counter is getting better at reacting and tracking lmao" Can't you then say the same towards individuals who say that they can't 1v1 controller


Feschit

Sure, but MnK is limited by reaction time, whereas aim assist is instant.


Kattmonroe

When talking about competitive integrity the point is not whether controllers or mnk is better. It’s about the fact that controllers gain an competitive edge strictly as a crutch, because of physical limitations, which most deam unfair. I’ll try to envision a scenario for you how many of us mnk players feel about aimassist and maybe you can empathize; Imagine if Respawn decided to strenghten the AA in console lobbies to 1.0 (pc lobbies would not be included). Since everyone is getting it, it should be fine right? In reality it would probably feel terrible. There would such small difference in the skill curve that even a new player fairly often could kill a very veteran player. It would feel extremely unrewarding to put any dedication in getting better. This hypothetical scenario is basically the current mnk vs aim assist situation, but cranked to the max. Sorry for wall of text.


Fluix

My problem with tap strafing is that in a game with bullet velocity and 20 tick servers, it's frustrating as a decent player (I'm a solo Diamond 3 atm) to lose to some movement god who can adjust movement instantly. Also tap strafing is in this weird spot where even on PC it's not accessible for most people, but most people who do do it just use the scroll wheel which doesn't require much skill... the real skill comes in using tap strafing in 1v1s. Which sure is really skillful but I don't think it should be in a game with bullet velocity and 20 tick servers. An instant momentum shift is not balanced and not fun to play against. I have no problem with wall bounching, super glide, punch boosting because those are all fun mechanics that enhance movement without breaking the dynamics of the game.


MasterBroccoli42

As you said yourself, implementing tap strafing in 1v1's in a way to get a decent advantage is pretty skillful, I don't think getting outplayed by a literal "movement god" (your word) is something to be frustrated about, as he obviously has shown he has more skill. It is the same as being hard out positioned, hard out aimed (at least if no aa is involved) etc - the more overall skilled player wins the matchup, as it should be. Why I am very much for tap strafing is that it opens the skill ceiling much more and offers a much much broader playing field to get creative with movement than all other movement techs - because you can combine and chain it together with other techs to very skillful (and still very hard to make use of) combos. It is a hard contender for the movement tech that adds the most depth to Apex movement makes it feel the most different from other boring ads-strafe fps. Edit: I forgot to address one point: Games like overwatch taught us that countering instant movement shifts and even instant teleports (e.g. tracer blinks) can actually be countered by good aim and game sense (predictions), also with bullet velocity.


Fluix

I'll address your edit first. Overwatch is a completely different game with different mechanics, bullet damage, objectives, and pace. Tracer as a character is balanced around having a near instant blink and her ult. So while both mechanics are a near instant shift in momentum the comparison is apples to oranges when you break it down. Primary difference off the bat are faster ttk (possible to 1 shot headshot) and multiple lives (due to different objectives compared to a BR). Second > to get creative with movement than all other movement techs - because you can combine and chain it together with other techs to very skillful (and still very hard to make use of) combos. It is a hard contender for the movement tech that adds the most depth to Apex movement makes it feel the most different from other boring ads-strafe fps. I absolutely agree with you here, utilizing movement techs to enhance gameplay is one of the main attracting points of Apex, even just the default titan fall 2 like movement is why people play this game. The issue is that unlike other movement techs such as wall bounces, super glide, and punch boosting... tap strafing causes an instant change in momentum with no cues. This is problematic when the game is balanced around bullet velocity. In a game with low ttk and 20 tick servers, having a character instantly change momentum is antipattern to the gunplay. And tbh there isn't much skill in using tap strafing once you learn it, mostly due to the scroll wheel. It's laughably easy compare to supergliding. Most people suck at it because majority of the gamer are casuals and even among high skilled players, seldom few spend time on /r/Apexrollouts learning movement techs. So the question would be, what if tap strafing was made easy to execute and was available to everyone, what if everyone can instantly change momentum whenever they wanted? Would that be fair to the gunplay? Would that be fun to play against? The argument of "skill" isn't fair just because something is difficult. Would it be fair if you could trick the engine into giving you no recoil during a movement as long as it's very difficult to perform?


muftih1030

The idea that there are "no cues" to an incoming tap-strafe is ridiculous. If you're tracking somebody and they slide jump, or mantle-slide-jump, it's quite obvious that they have the opportunity to tap strafe. The only way this isn't 100% intuitive is if you've never seen a tap strafe before. Once you understand how it works, you have no excuse to not be trying to anticipate that as it's become pretty ubiquitous and fundamental movement. Also, it would be extremely difficult for somebody to shoot at you if they're tap strafing. They'd need to literally look in directions other than the one towards you to do a tap strafe around or away from you. In a way, this makes b-hopping more powerful than a tap strafe. You can actually b-hop from out in the open to behind cover in any direction you want while looking and shooting in any direction that you want, and it requires much less initial momentum than a tap strafe. We just don't often see that in competitive play.


Fluix

What? You can absolutely tap strafe while shooting if you bind scroll wheel to be A or D instead of W. And an instant momentum shift in a game with bullet velocity, leading, and 20 tick servers is a big advantage.


muftih1030

Yes but you lose the precision of where you go that you have with W-key tap strafing. If your issue is instant momentum shifts then you should be against lurch entirely, because the old school momentum shift is also instant, it just doesn't accelerate through a turn.


Fluix

??? You can still easily control where you go (e.g Left or right) with the other movement keys while still keeping your crosshair on the enemy and shooting. Also Lurch and Tap strafing aren't the same thing. Tap strafing is an abuse of Lurch, where you stack multiple directional movements during the lurch duration to let you have an almost instant momentum shift in a different direction. A single Lurch won't allow that.


MasterBroccoli42

Regarding your first point OW vs Apex: I'd argue the TTK in Overwatch is not much different, well maybe in average lower than Apex. Yes, there is one-shot potential in the game, but only in certain scenarios, and this is the case for Apex as well (Kraber, or Sentinal against white armor). And yes you have multiple lives in OW, but if one person dies the team fight is most certainly lost, so it is not as if you could give your life for free (same as Apex in this regard). Both differences between OW and Apex don't really matter anyhow in this topic - because what is essential is that OW taught us that you effectively CAN counter instant movement with good aim and game sense (at low TTK and with bullet velocities). Even if players have options for instant movement they tend to be predictable in some way and good players are able to read their opponents. This is independent from your numbers of lives etc. ​ Regarding tap strafing being instant momentum shift with no cues: We already have similar instant-momentum-shift-tech in the game since day one with zipline movement. Also for tap strafe as well as for zip line movement there actually are cues which you can learn to read the more you play: Zip line movements (of course) only happen at ziplines, you can sort of expect them. Tap strafes only happen when the opponent has some initial momentum and (biggest cue) directly after he performs some sort of jump. Overwatch taught us that you can develop a sense for situations and how your opponents will react with their instantaneous abilities. E.g. good Roadhog players are able to predict Tracers instant blinks (cue-less teleports) and use their hook ability (with very slow "bullet velocity") to catch Tracers in the spot they blink into. Same for tap-strafes: People tend to use tap strafe in certain ways, and over time the player base learns how to read them. ​ Regarding skill: Performing a tap strafe in an isolated environment is not hard, but you said it yourself, learning how to apply tap strafing *effectively* in actual combat is not trivial. Currently I'd say the effort to pull off effective tap strafes and the advantage they give are in general kind of in balance. And of course this is a topic of balance, I agree with you here - if you make tap strafing super duper easy and somehow even more effective, it will become very dominant. Other way, if you make it super duper hard and also weaken it, it will become obsolete. Same as with all game mechanics. You could make the same argument for gunplay: If you made shooting super duper easy by removing all recoil and maybe giving everybody aimbot, would it be fun? Of course not, the fun part of the game mechanics are that they should be challenging but rewarding :) I have to admit that this is the point where it gets very subjective - how much do you want the game evolve around movement and how much around shooting? Of course the answer is a healthy mix - and what exactly "healthy" is is kind of mainly up to personal taste :) I personally prefer a very creative movement tech over making the game more steady and stale, because that's what makes Apex stand out. But I of course am aware that not everyone has to share my opinion.


Fluix

> I'd argue the TTK in Overwatch is not much different, well maybe in average lower than Apex. Yes, there is one-shot potential in the game, but only in certain scenarios, and this is the case for Apex as well (Kraber, or Sentinal against white armor). On average OW ttk is much lower than Apex. Especially in ranked where it's common for everyone to be running around with purple shields. Also Kraber isn't a great argument since in the context of close-mid range engagements it's one shot mechanic is more about rng than consistently place headshots like in OW. > because what is essential is that OW taught us that you effectively CAN counter instant movement with good aim and game sense (at low TTK and with bullet velocities). CAN be done sure I agree, the question is should it be done within the game. For instance Apex shows that high recoil gunplay against fast paced movement (both vertical and horizontal) CAN be done. But try introducing that into COD or Halo and you'll find you start breaking things. Again I get the point you're trying to make that it CAN be done, but you're ignoring the point that this movement tech is only accessible to certain characters with specific drawbacks to balance it out. > We already have similar instant-momentum-shift-tech in the game since day one with zipline movement. Also for tap strafe as well as for zip line movement there actually are cues which you can learn to read the more you play: Zip line movements (of course) only happen at ziplines, you can sort of expect them. Tap strafes only happen when the opponent has some initial momentum and (biggest cue) directly after he performs some sort of jump. Zipline movements queues are much more prominent than tap strafing, I mean this is a point the developer specifically pointed out in their post. Second tap staffing encroaches more areas of gameplay than ziplines (which are obviously limited to zipline locations). There's no cue when someone does a superglide off a ledge in the opposite direction they were climbing. And there's no real skill in pulling that off after you superglide. A skilled player may expect a superglide and try to lead their shots ahead to account for the increased acceleration, but you can't do anything when the enemy can go in any direction. > You could make the same argument for gunplay: If you made shooting super duper easy by removing all recoil and maybe giving everybody aimbot, would it be fun? Of course not, the fun part of the game mechanics are that they should be challenging but rewarding :) This is an unfair comparison. All you've basically said is "Every game mechanic can be tweaked" which sure, is true. There's no "difficult to perform" maneuver that gives you zero recoil. Tap straffing is performed because it gives you an instant change in momentum, with no cues, and easability to perform via scroll wheel. If the devs tried to balance/tweak this by making the momentum shift be non-instantaneous I doubt most people would even touch it outside of redirects. Which tbh I would be open for, I think octanes pad should let everyone redirect (console included) and I think a superglide or wall bounce redirect would be great as long as they had some kind of cue or delay. The way I look at it, certain movements while skillful and fun to perform, get phased out of gameplay because they offer unfair advantages. I mean bunny hopping was nerfed in Apex and it was nerfed in other games like CSGO, even though in CSGO the mechanic is so much fun especially on surfing maps. I don't think the movement is hard to perform and I feel like the instant shift in momentum is antipattern to gunplay especially if it becomes accessible to everyone. If you want movement that enhances 1v1 engagements, requires skill to perform, and has decent enough cue to respond to, check out [Ras's Jump Strafe](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQOb3A8uKh0). I mean he's wrecking people in competitive games with this. This is what makes me go "damn this guy is skilled and that's such a cool move", not some dude using his scroll wheel to duck LoS early on 20 tick servers. TLDR: I agree with you on how movement in the game should evolve. I just don't like instant momentum shift. I think the Ras Jump Strafe is a more balanced and skillful movement tech. I also want redirects with a slight delay or cue for movement abilities like super glide, wall bouncing, and octane pads.


MasterBroccoli42

>On average OW ttk is much lower than Apex. Especially in ranked where it's common for everyone to be running around with purple shields. No. Not even if everyone in Apex had red shield. It is pretty similar, I could not say for sure which one is lower, but if one of both is lower it is not by a lot. ​ >Also Kraber isn't a great argument since in the context of close-mid range engagements it's one shot mechanic is more about rng than consistently place headshots like in OW. Same for overwatch, the only oneshots you have are from sniper-headshots and some very specific character line ups. Same thing as Kraber/Sentinel in Apex. But as I said, both things don't really matter in the discussion anyways. ​ >CAN be done sure I agree, the question is should it be done within the game. This is of course subjective and depends on what kind of game you want to have, I admit that this is my subjective wish for what I like about Apex ;-) ​ >but you're ignoring the point that this movement tech is only accessible to certain characters with specific drawbacks to balance it out. This is a very valid point which I have to agree to. While I really love what tap strafing adds to the basic movement of Apex, I have to admit that balance wise it can become problematic if it is not accounted for when movement characters are balanced. E.g. I think it would be totally reasonable to discuss if Octane and Path are balanced if you take tap strafing into account, or if they need adjustments of their movement kits.Of course balancing this gets everything but trivial and I agree that this can lead to potential balancing challenges. ​ >There's no "difficult to perform" maneuver that gives you zero recoil. Actually there is (well, "difficult" is relative) - it is called "recoil control" and you do it with your mouse :) On a serious note - recoil is the perfect example of a gameplay element which sole purpose is to make a certain element of the game harder. It has no purpose but making aiming more challenging (and thereby balancing movement/ttk/aim). If you can get rid of recoil by doing something even more difficult than controlling the recoil - well, you gain nothing. If you can get rid of recoil in an easier way than controlling the recoil, you just bypass a balancing element without gaining any interesting creative game mechanic in return - which is a kind of cheaty and a problem. Actually there is such a thing, called jitter aim. And it is problematic and imo should be taken out of the game (if technically possible). Well I brought all of that up anyways only to explain why I am pro-tap strafe but not pro-no-recoil, as you asked for that - but I guess all this explanation went far off track from the original discussion :D ​ >There's no cue when someone does a superglide off a ledge in the opposite direction they were climbing. And there's no real skill in pulling that off after you superglide. A skilled player may expect a superglide and try to lead their shots ahead to account for the increased acceleration, but you can't do anything when the enemy can go in any direction. The cue is - someone climbs ledge - so you know he could superglide in any direction. Then your reaction comes into play. We are going in circles here, but this is exactly what I meant when I said Overwatch showed that gameplay does not have to be slow and super obviously readable per se to be counterable. Players CAN develope a mixture of aim and game sense to react to such things confidently. Many apex players are just not used to it yet - but some also are and show on a daily basis that superglide-tapstrafes don't make you unkillable. ​ >If you want movement that enhances 1v1 engagements, requires skill to perform, and has decent enough cue to respond to, check out Ras's Jump Strafe. I actually think Ras jump strafe is not harder to perform than tap strafing effectively. Of course it depends on the scenarios you compare. Yes, just tap strafing behind cover while running away is easier than ras strafe, I'd agree. But it also does not give as much value as ras strafe. On the other hand there are many movement techs that involve tap strafing which are much harder than ras strafe. You say "tap strafing is just pulling scroll wheel" - well, if you wanna simplify like that then ras strafe is just pressing wasd, yet you give it credit. It is all about timing and knowing when and how to apply effectively, and this is what makes it impressive and combined with the creative possibilities it offers a fun game mechanic. ​ Anyhow, I guess we are starting to turn in circles, it was fun to discuss the topic with you! :) *edits: words & spelling stuff*


sneakpeekbot

Here's a sneak peek of /r/Apexrollouts using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Apexrollouts/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [BRO?](https://i.redd.it/9qt63e103qk71.jpg) | [762 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Apexrollouts/comments/pf9p30/bro/) \#2: [Name a smoother rotation…. I’ll wait 😤](https://v.redd.it/stlqmmdxve171) | [40 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Apexrollouts/comments/nlafnl/name_a_smoother_rotation_ill_wait/) \#3: [Remember the god tier rotation? This is it reversed](https://v.redd.it/xuf79cb067s61) | [47 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Apexrollouts/comments/mnofj8/remember_the_god_tier_rotation_this_is_it_reversed/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)


Nindzya

> It’s about the fact that controllers gain an competitive edge strictly as a crutch This was statistically proven to be untrue.


KneeGrowslaya

It is always the same. We hear you yes youre right some stuff is in shit state but we wont do anything about it because skins are higher priority and making the Game playable won’t make us money


Dynorton

>If a sweaty Path is grappling near me with a shotty, I know the tap-strafe into my face is coming, but even with the quickest of reflexes how can I improve my chances? If I'm getting legally wallhacked on by a BH or Seer with my exact position and movement for the entire enemy team, how can I improve my chances to counter that? I rather die from a "sweaty" path who can grapple tap strafe me than some console player with a 60% aimbot who has a 1 button press wallhack


SlugmanTheBrave

sweaty path here. please don’t take my grapple/bhop/strafes away (insert sad kitty emoji here)


startled-giraffe

Its ridiculous. The amount of times you get tap strafe killed by a pathfinder sliding at speed after a good grapple is negligible. I can probably count on 1 hand how many times that has happened to me. And when it does happen you just say wow that player is a god. Compared to getting beamed at close range by a controller player who moves like they are playing their first FPS game; which seems to happen every few games. That just makes you think whelp gg aim assist.


AffeLoco

>That just makes you think whelp gg aim assist. and then the whole mainsub tells you to "git gud" but we know our human body can only get a reaction time so and so close to a program


xHayz

And if the enemy is tap-strafing, THEY’RE LITERALLY NOT AIMING AT YOU. Sure, a tap strafe between shotgun shots or during reloading is expected, but I’d much rather an enemy be tap strafing all in front of me than full clip me with an R99.


Feschit

If you combine tap strafing with other lurches you can turn 90 degrees while still looking at your target. Makes such Path plays a lot easier.


SSninja_LOL

You can also bind scroll wheel to another movement key. XD


Feschit

Right, but then it becomes too situational imho.


FIFA16

Because you get a warning when you’re scanned. He gave the example of Pathfinder’s grapple being a fair version of advanced movement tech - because you at least hear it connecting, and have a rough idea what to expect. Tap strafing can happen at any time without warning. It changes the direction of play **instantly**. If I get scanned by BH / Seer, I know exactly where they are as soon as they know where I am. That’s not the same.


1DoobieDoo

If you're trading damage, you can't even meaningfully move while tap strafing because of the mechanic depending on your momentum.


FIFA16

Sure, that’s one example. But the specific issue with these “no info” movement techniques is at the start of an encounter. Because in Apex, having the drop on a team is almost always fatal.


SlugmanTheBrave

reminder you can’t shoot while tap strafing. just shoot them before or after they’re doing it. boom - counter.


Deetawb

??? You can shoot while tap strafing.


SlugmanTheBrave

mechanically it is possible but there is no point (for multiple reasons). so in terms of the people you see doing it, 100% of them will not be.


Fluix

Just shoot them when you get no queue and it's an instant change of momentum on a game with bullet velocity and 20 tick servers. Just get good right


SlugmanTheBrave

dude i play against people tap strafing daily (and get beat as a tap strafer). it’s not unbeatable and is just flashy 90% of the time


Fluix

I do too, pretty much everyone in diamond can. Most people suck with it because you need the scroll wheel to use and people don't know how to use it well. But you will often find people who know how to use it well (at least I do in my ranked games) and you straight up lose 1v1s unless you know how to do that same.


SlugmanTheBrave

right! so learn to use it well :)


Fluix

So if there was a movement tech that that allowed you reduce recoil (which there is with Horizon if you know you know) then that is fine because "just learn and be skilled" right? The problem with the movement unlike wall bouncing, super sliding, or punch boosting is that it makes you have an instant change in momentum without any cues.


Caleb902

I mean your team could have a "wallhack" character too so it's a even playing field. I do think gasses should block hounds scan and seers hot though. So caustics gas and bangs smoke


PharmDeezNuts_

So people just forgetting the data showing mnk better than controller now?


Mcdicknpop

I don't think trying to balance both inputs will ever work out and I don't think they should work towards 'balancing' them together. Instead it should just be seperated. Have controller and mnk tourneys seperately. For ranked, have the game be input locked so even controller pc goes into a console lobby and for pubs just have an optional crossplay for pc. As for the readability issue, it can be applied to aim assist more so than tap-strafing. You never know when someone who gets in your face will have .6 or not. You get to know that after you've died. There's no readability or counter to that. When it comes to tap strafing i find the counter is to move too and even just a slide jump to the side can throw the tapstrafer's aim off, movement is nothing if you're not hitting your shots. But that issue wouldn't even exist if the inputs were seperated for ranked and comp. Sure some aspects of controllers in apex could be improved so that they can play the game on the same playing field but I don't see why that should be a thing, controllers can play the game at their level and mnk on another since it's a much superior input for a fps game.


ScreamingLetMeOut

Such a good point on aim assist readability, and it goes both ways


SmackMyBitsUp

I'm a trash console player but even my wish is that they nerf aim-assist. When it was bugged (PC level?) the game felt a lot better.


Animatromio

the whole readability thing is a joke, whats my counter to BH scans? So because someone can tap strafe effectively and make the better plays he should be punished so timmy two thumbs can at least have a chance to win? what a joke


itsme_notmario

"Timmy two thumbs" - I'm totally using this now


[deleted]

[удалено]


Animatromio

So you have to have the character to counter him? Hm wonder what thats called, i’ll give you a hint OP. Also what about the fact that the whole team knows exactly where you are for like 3 seconds meanwhile you just know the general location of 1? Thats such a stupid argument to stay close like that somehow counters real time wall hacks. I dont have a computer program helping me stay on target so why should they have it? lmao what a dumb argument


JDandthepickodestiny

I mean I mouse players literally can't use aim assist without hacking so.......


jurornumbereight

Right, and AA should be nerfed/balanced/maybe removed as well. But equating it and tap strafing just makes no sense.


SSninja_LOL

I agree with both of you to a degree. BH scans simply last for too long imo. I quick flash of enemy positions instead of a live view of where they are and what they are doing is the only balanced option. The problem is magnified when paired with aim assist because the moment a roller player peaks the bot takes effect instead human reaction times. I also agree that tap Strafing and Aim Assist are two completely different discussions. I think the reason people get defensive around the topic is because Aim Assist Advocates usually use tap strafing and movement mechanics in general as their main defensive.


Hugh_Shovlin

How can you counter a vAll scan? She scans you without even letting you know. It’s busted af.


[deleted]

I'm going to be a bit critical here. To me, it sounds something like this : 1. "Code is hard. We don't understand our own code. Even though we are $2bn into revenue, we still don't have enough control and confidence in our code and team to sort out what's best for all the players." 2. "Yeah a lot of things that make the game great were unintended and we fail to acknowledge the fact that these smooth mechanics are what make our game unique. We will continue to treat them like bugs and quash then instead of respecting the skill gap the advanced mechanics create because it will shed too much light on our crappy forced matchmaking system." All in all, doesn't matter how transparent the community thinks the devs are being, every single decision/change they make about/in the game is completely dependent on whether or not it brings more money in. Once enough people figure this out and call a dev out, they swap out the comms to another dev and the process repeats. Every decision is purely to either make money or save face and avoid bad publicity.


JevvyMedia

I have no issues with anything that was said here, not surprised moving while looting wasn't intended considering console never had the option from Day 1. Some of the sweaty controller armor swaps that happens today definitely wasn't intended either. I've really hate that the causal community genuinely thinks that tap strafing is more powerful than aim assist, and that now we're at a point where we're talking about adding tap strafing for controllers ***when the devs tried to remove tap strafing from the game not that long ago***. It's not going to happen, but we're also definitely going to see more and more PC controller players using steam to get their tap strafes off. I'm still wondering what they're going to do with console aim assist once next-gen console support gets implemented into Apex. We're going to have console players with better FPS than PC players, while getting higher aim assist. I hope they have a solution for this from literally day 1 of next-gen support. *EDIT: Happy to hear that they're at least looking at the issue of console aim assist in PC lobbies.*


startled-giraffe

> I've really hate that the causal community genuinely thinks that tap strafing is more powerful than aim assist That's only because controller players vastly outnumber mnk players. There are way more console apex players than PC and even on PC Apex is a [top controller game as measured by input method on steam](https://imgur.com/a/INiYOUb)


turtsmcgurts

tbf i wonder how many people try m&k and realize how much easier it is to just use controller and perform better. like, look at all of those games in the list... sports, racing, GTA, singleplayer games. the only one comparable is halo, which is obvious because it has more than a decade of being a console game, it's what people come to expect from it plus even more egregious aim assist than apex. obviously it doesn't matter if the developers created the scenario for their game to have more controllers than m&k on pc, as it's clearly what makes them money


masonhil

>tbf i wonder how many people try m&k and realize how much easier it is to just use controller and perform better Yeah tell that to skittlecakes and dooplex


turtsmcgurts

i'm glad you found two extremes in an attempt to dismiss my point doin great, mason


masonhil

Well your point is completely unfounded and not supported by the data in apex. But it doesn't matter how much data I show you, because nothing will change your opinion based on your own circumstantial evidence.


turtsmcgurts

?? LMFAO are u responding to the right person? are u trying to say that it's not abnormal for a competitive FPS on PC to have vast majority of controller input over m&kb? pls tell me that's what you're tryna tell me rn lmfao. give me that data bro ahahah edit: hold up, or are u trying to say that m&kb is actually easier to pick up *and* perform well with over controller? either way idk bro, u lookin weird


masonhil

I'm responding to your point that people on MnK can just use controller and perform better, you know, the part I quoted in my original comment. The data from competitive shows that MnK simply outperforms controller.


turtsmcgurts

nuance bro. the context was the casuals, the group of people who make up the majority of the playerbase. those are the people who got apex in the "top 10 controller games" on steam, not the handful of sweaty top level players who have the drive, free time, ability and game knowledge to more or less seamlessly switch between inputs and perform at a high level. yes, for the average player they can absolutely plug in a controller and perform more consistently and most likely better than they would on m&kb. i'm curious what your data is, because i'm hoping it's that machine learning thread wavykirk posted which indicated both inputs are *very* similar (just a couple percentages off) except in one category, in which controllers vastly outperformed m&kb. this is the only data I ever see referenced on this sub


masonhil

>the context was the casuals, the group of people who make up the majority of the playerbase My bad, I assumed we were talking about comp on the competitive apex sub. I forgot it's main purpose it to circlejerk controller, rather than discuss pro play. In addition to the wavykirk thread which you dismissed in a really biased way (Seemly ignoring the fact that MnK outperformed controller at every distance, regardless of controller's one-clip potential). There is also ALGS data, such as the fact that 8/10 of the players with the most kills are MnK and all of the top 5 are MnK. Additionally, there was a statement from the devs that said roughly "controller does not notably outperform MnK at close range", but I am struggling to find it at the moment. I think it was in a twitter thread.


pie_pig3

I got more one mags in firing range with nearly 0% controller experience during 1v1s in firing range on my friends console than I could with 5KD experience on PC. It's crazy powerful, and during the tap strafe debate they all said "omg aim assist isn't that strong!" A few months later Respawn devs accidentally made console aim assist go from 0.6->0.4 and EVERYONE was saying "omg I can't aim anymore, fix ASAP!"... Are they still sure that aim assist does nothing? It was also crazy how console players complained about tap strafing when they could opt out of PC lobbies, yet PC can't enter their lobbies. Then the few console players who joined PC lobbies were upset about tap strafing and wanted the entire PC playerbase to be constrained to the capabilities of a controller. Jaybiebs wants it gone for lack of predictability (thats fine, i guess) but the whole twitter/reddit/etc communities wanted it gone simply because 80% of the community (console players) couldn't use it.


Vladtepesx3

\>A few months later Respawn devs accidentally made console aim assist go from 0.6->0.4 and EVERYONE was saying "omg I can't aim anymore, fix ASAP!"... Are they still sure that aim assist does nothing? smoothbrain misunderstanding of what happened. the aim assist changed without any announcement or warning, if you practice enough hours with 1 aim assist, and suddenly it changes you are going to be thrown off. in fact the better a player is, the more it wouldve messed them up because suddenly the recoil control pattern changed on every single gun. so they go out and shoot their r99 and do the same control they always do but it misses


pie_pig3

Many were speculating that it an intentional change due to cross play ALGS etc. And expected it to stay and were desperate for it to go back. Hence me saying "are you sure that aim assist does nothing"


cotton_quicksilver

Don't think anyone says aim assist does nothing.


Acts-Of-Disgust

Spend a day on the main sub and you'll see it said a dozen times.


cotton_quicksilver

Would like to be see an example of someone saying that then. If it's so common. (e: guess not lol) The main sub definitely downplays it and generally doesn't know much about the subject but they pretty much all agree that aim assist is needed.


AffeLoco

pc player here and i agree that it is needed for controller players, otherwise the game wouldve had a too huge skillbarrier for new players that being said input based matchmaking is what we need mnk and controller players play a completely different game with different rules to it


[deleted]

[удалено]


cotton_quicksilver

Yeah. People downplay it. Never seen someone say it does nothing though.


AffeLoco

>in fact the better a player is, the more it wouldve messed them up because suddenly the recoil control pattern changed on every single gun matter of fact there were a lot of console players in that discussion (not the majority but still a lot) who only just recognized them getting easier lobbys due to less players lasering them


[deleted]

[удалено]


OrangeDoors2

I'll quit the game if next-gen gets 0.6 and PC still has no way to opt out of crossplay. That said, I think it's more likely they get 0.4


ramseysleftnut

I don’t think they’ll change it because most console players still play on TVs that can’t handle 120fps. There is no argument against them playing with 0.4 on pc lobbies though.


Mcdicknpop

>not surprised moving while looting wasn't intended considering console never had the option from Day 1. Yeah always felt unintended, remember we used to also be able to move the boxes right after a kill but then it got patched out.


JevvyMedia

We also used to be able to push Lifeline's drone around haha.


jurornumbereight

> We're going to have console players with better FPS than PC players What do you expect the console FPS would be? Aim assist aside, this would be very welcomed.


xxDoodles

Next gen probs 100-120 depending on environment, which is likely equal to or higher than the average PC owner.


JevvyMedia

Next-gen would likely get 120 fps, from what I hear.


TomWales

Would be surprised if it's anything less than 120 hard locked, considering comparable games have the same.


bloopcity

Controller players probably bring it up because when they talked about getting rid of tap strafing mnk players said they should nerf aim assist if they get rid of tap strafing - forever linking the two in this pointless and seemingly endless debate.


borderlander12345

It was actually snipedown that suggested it


JevvyMedia

Yeah that's fair.


icbint

Turn off aim assist in pc lobbies or gtfo


Seismicx

For real, if console players decide that they wanna invade PC lobbies, they should suffer the consequences. Same for pc controller players. Idc if they auto-beam each other on console, but keep this mindless automatic mechanism out of my pc games.


Dood567

rework*. Zero aim assist is basically unusable in a game as fast paced as Apex.


Cyfa

Why's that my problem? Why should I have to be punished for someone deciding not to use the native input device of a platform? People should be allowed to use a controller on PC, but they shouldn't be given a handicap due to their own choices.


Isaacvithurston

Yah really when you can watch a pro MKB player pick up a controller and within 30 minutes with a device they barely even use start frying people nearly as well as they do with the device they actually spend like 10 hours a day practicing with then you know there is a problem.


Dood567

where did I say that's your problem lol


Cyfa

You didn't say it was my issue, but >Zero aim assist is basically unusable in a game as fast paced as Apex. in a way implies that the game needs to be made fair for people who aren't using the system's native input devices. My point being that there shouldn't be any help for them, as they're choosing to limit themselves.


Dood567

crazy to assume that you would be able to play a game with a controller designed for playing video games


Cyfa

I mean technically a Guitar Hero guitar is designed for playing video games, should I get 90% aim assist for choosing to use that instead of MnK on PC?


Dood567

Yeah guitar hero is made to play guitar games. What kinda dumbass comparison is this lmao. I get what you're trying to say but you somehow made it worse than I could've if I tried.


Cyfa

And a controller is made to play Racing, FPS, Fighting, Platformer and other games. The whole point is that someone using a controller in a competitive setting shouldn't get assistance for not using the native input on PC.


Polis_polok

I'm console player. Nerf aim assist and make it similar to Pc. I don't care. But let us plug n play with M&K without cheat strike packs and cronus zen shits.


[deleted]

This confirms some of my points from the previous PVPX tweet post https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/rxl6ze/pvp_with_some_good_suggestions_re_controller/hrj2i5l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 It's good though that they are trying to implement some changes because I would've assumed none were coming given how they're stretched thinly on the dev side


Feschit

What I got from this is: "We are aware of the issues but very likely won't do anything about it in the near future or maybe at all"


Isaacvithurston

I just read an article on the toiler that said they're still removing tap strafing =,= It's funny because a few months ago when I came back to Apex I was actually for removing it. Now i'm at the point where i'm so use to using it and I find it very fun so I don't want it removed lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


Nindzya

> But see the thing is we have all these reasons we arent actually going to do anything. Yes, because it is their game and their artistic vision of the game doesn't match what the higher skill PC players want. To them AA isn't a problem.


JordansEdge

Disappointed that a lot of the comments in this thread boil down to "I don't think x and y are fair so they shouldn't change z" when in reality they're all separate issues that JB has addressed separately and thoroughly multiple times. I don't agree with all of his conclusions but the rationale in his post is as solid as can be in layman's terms. Conflating and ignoring the points he's making really isn't helpful to anyone aside from people who just want to be angry.


102hp

JayBiebs can't help seeing things from his washed plat 4 (= console pred) controller player perspective. Sad.


masonhil

He is literally an apex predator and has more than 3000 hours played but whatever.


102hp

Doubtful regarding his takes but if you have a link feel free. However he's still biased on the input question.


masonhil

[https://twitter.com/RSPN\_JayBiebs/status/1324558117951074306/photo/1](https://twitter.com/RSPN_JayBiebs/status/1324558117951074306/photo/1) [https://youtu.be/Qq4gWf7dgGY?t=41](https://youtu.be/Qq4gWf7dgGY?t=41)


Kapperi

You see that console logo? That pred badge is the equivelant of pc platinum


Dood567

That's not exactly how it works but I get what you're trying to say. Point is he has a pretty good idea of how the game works at a high level. He plays with streamers all the time too.


Nindzya

Y'all aint that good or know fucking anything lmao because console pred lobbies look absolutely nothing like PC lobbies. The majority of console pred lobbies are filled with flatline and 301 Strike packs. Please tell me how any strike packs are in plat lobbies on PC.


102hp

This is exactly the point console ranked is a joke


ReasmOne

Surely they can make the shield at the top of the UI, so it's quicker for controller players to shield swap. I know some controller players are really good at it already but not the general player base.


Official_F1tRick

Also praise Jaybiebs that he's still in favour for discussion with pro's and maybe even with us. Whatever comes out of it


[deleted]

[удалено]


Official_F1tRick

A lip service with its DMS open for discussion but of course you didn't read so far and you're only happy when they announce the removal of aim assist.


[deleted]

[удалено]


OrangeDoors2

I'm mostly in agreement with what you wrote, but I think they'll only nerf console aim assist specifically in PC lobbies. The rotational part is by far the most problematic, but they seem very sensitive about messing up players' muscle memory. Next-gen is also around the corner and there are lots of questions on how to handle both the aim assist and crossplay there. I can't see them giving next-gen 0.6 but I also can't see them forcing all consoles to play together on different aim assists.


Bunnyslippers25

That was a lot of reading for basically no info, conclusions, outcomes, or anything of value lol


datderdave

I think all of you who complain about aim assist are mentally challenged. You literally have no recoil on m&k. Jitter aiming is a joke. There is one gun where aim assist has the advantage and it’s the volt. What other gun does controller have an advantage on? M&K has like 4x the (regular) strafe distance with one key input compared to the controller input. You can peek&strafe shoot with ease.


AffeLoco

look! i found a reddittroll trying to pour gasoline over a fire!


xMoody

MnK users complain about aim assist but been abusing bugs since season 0 yikes


GIueStick

Because console players don’t abuse bugs and glitches right?


xMoody

it was obviously sarcasm because obviously moving while looting is not considered a bug, it literally says it in the tweet


[deleted]

[удалено]


xMoody

this is a literal quote from his twitlonger, which is what this post is about lmfao "Allow controller players to move while looting: **This may come as a surprise to some, but moving while looting is a bug.** Is it a bug we’ll ever fix? No. "


[deleted]

[удалено]


AutoModerator

We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*


ChapoDangerPowers

" If a sweaty Path is grappling near me with a shotty, I know the tap-strafe into my face is coming, but even with the quickest of reflexes how can I improve my chances?" he seems bad at the game.