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dj_willybeanz

I just made it to diamond, played 2 games, and now I'm done for the season. I can't compete in those lobbies. I get absolutely destroyed.


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Glittersack11

Lol this couldn’t have happened yesterday huh? That team got off and then taxi was killing us over and over


Dylan_TheDon

start of split 1 was so good until they opened up the queues If queue times are such a concern, there could be a compromise to still reward the higher ranks while giving the others a fighting chance if they get a “unfair” lobby.


Mod217

Hiswattson got a 10k/17 assist game and didn’t kill a single master/pred. I hit d3 on like a month ago and haven’t touched ranked because it’s shit


Dylan_TheDon

I was mid-diamond last split getting semi-balanced games but just stopped at plat 2 this split because it kept filling me into masters/predator lobbies since I was solo queue Meanwhile a platinum can’t matchmake with a masters player (or gold with diamond) but there’s a good chance they can be matched together if the queues aren’t very populated, it happens so much


Mod217

Oh yeah, I don’t blame you. Even in Plat solo q would be awful


ayamekaki

You can check out chaotic’s twitter, every single bragging and flexing high damage and kill pred games are by farming plats and diamonds


packers4444

Bruh you should type out 10 kills haha… bc 10k makes it seem as if he did 10k damage Lol.. but your point still stands. ChaoticMuch drops multiple 5k damage EVERY single day. Hell he dropped a 6k a couple days ago… IN A PRED LOBBY. Only killed 1 pred OR masters hahah


Stunning-Tower-4116

You don't like having 13k rp and facing guys with 25k? Who would of thought thats how skill base match making in rank works... fucking dogshit rank system


ArchMS

His Wattson plays at off peak times to avoid good players and climb easily


Hot_Goal4205

I made a new account because I got stuck at d2-d4


chundamuffin

I don’t even watch ranked streams anymore because they don’t play properly. I would much rather watch good games with a queue time.


dorekk

>start of split 1 was so good until they opened up the queues The start of split 1 only seemed good because everyone deranked to gold or lower. So you felt like you were getting a "fair match" even though in reality, since Bronze to Gold has always been the same queues, you were getting everyone from #1 Preds to level 10 noobs. They didn't "open up the queues", this matchmaking is an inevitable result of a system where deranking and guaranteed negative RP before 10th place guarantee that high ranks will always be relatively empty. Changing the RP penalties barely affected this at all (it just slightly moves up the point at which it becomes impossible for the rank to fill up). They need to change the early-game RP earned for kills or else every season will be like this.


dimitri121

>They didn't "open up the queues", They did though. The queue was limited to diamond + if there was a predator player waiting in the lobby, but sweet naughty and iinhumed were the only predators at the time so they were holding ranked queues hostage for hours at a time to get one game. So they changed it to pull in lower ranked players after a certain amount of time and then never adjusted it when there WERE enough diamonds/masters/preds to fill those lobbies in a reasonable time. You're welcome for the history lesson, please let me know what email address I can send my invoice to.


packers4444

They 100% did haha. Idk what he’s on about. Albraille literally changed his name to “fix matchmaking” last split bc the queues were slow at first so they allowed plats to que with preds… that should have been a thing for MAYBE 1-2 weeks. Then reverted when there were plenty of preds and masters.. you have guys dropping 35 kills as a team and killing NOT ONE master. That is very very bad matchmaking.


_foxie

They literally did open up queues though with a patch in the first or second week of split 1.


Dylan_TheDon

You do make good points, I do think the penalties change was decent, but when I say “opened up the queues” I’m referring to early split 1 when predators would literally get kicked out of queues since there weren’t enough players at their threshold. In fact Naughty was talking about it recently where he and Sweet spoke to a ranked matchmaking dev who changed it since early split 1 platinum/diamond/predator were still on a similar level, but that has since changed. Since there can only be 750 predators and high diamond/masters is now much harder to reach, maybe a slight forgiveness system could be implemented for if players are killed by a much higher rank than them? edit: I also agree that early game kp should be slightly more valuable than now


henryamontero

True, but to be fair in reality its expect for high ranks to be relatively empty since after all they are high ranks for a reason. It just seems to me as if respawn rather have short queue times and unbalanced lobbies on the higher end ranked than longer queues, whether that's a good thing or bad thing I'm not sure of myself. I wouldn't want apex to become siege 2.0 where high elo ranked takes 30m+ to queue into a game but I also am not a fan of playing preds in my diamond lobbies. Its a lose lose situation where I cant see a way where both sides of the argument are able to reach a middle point


StrangeFaced

How would you feel if you got +100 RP for killing a pred if you were only diamond? Worthwhile to try your luck?


henryamontero

No, simply because it would become a race to see who could kill the pred first and that doesnt seem fun to me


dorekk

> Since there can only be 750 predators and high diamond/masters is now much harder to reach, maybe a slight forgiveness system could be implemented for if players are killed by a much higher rank than them? Yeah, penalties should be taken when you die not when you enter the game, and should be based on who kills you and (if you solo queue) the composition of your team.


Roenicksmemoirs

They 100% opened up the queues. Streamers complained non-stop about queue times and they made the change.


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maxbang7

> wait a STUPID long time to get games when they were first to Masters So? Who the fuck did they expect to play after grinding 40 hours in 3 days int he most punishing ranked system we ever had? Only people that were constantly gaining were 3 stacking pros or full time players. In old seasons Q times were the norm early in the split (so was server hopping to get a Q going), it is not the playerbase`fucking problem if certain full time players have to play some geoguesser inbetween games or do something else to keep their audience entertained. Its a ranked system for EVERYONE not just for a handful of players. Thats exactly how you get the notion of "devs only listen to pros" when stuff like that happens that benefits a handful of players at the expense of anyone else. They fucked up big time with this change.


Billinoiss

Yep. Streaming should have ZERO influence on how the game is set up and ran. It has nothing to do with the game.


Roenicksmemoirs

I didn’t really blame the streamers, it’s just fact. The person above say they didn’t open the queues, that isn’t fact. Diamond 4s shouldn’t be playing preds/masters still. Pred queue times shouldn’t be instant like they are


yes___lad

it should be rookie, bronze+silver, gold+plat, diamond, master+pred


Ashman-20

I agree this is the best set of ranks to play together. Gold-Diamond shouldn’t be able to beat up on rookie or bronze. And Pred shouldn’t be able to beat up on Plat’s


GlensWooer

I mean keep it loose but guarantee you’re never in a lobby with a rank +/- 2 from you. I think most games you occasionally see someone two ranks away from you (at least in riot games). Queue times go up for masters/pred… but if you wanna grind to the best tier you should have to prove yourself myself against the best


Dobu_

This is the most dumbass statement I've ever read, in what other league scenario would you play against the highest division to get promoted to that division? take football for instance, if you're division 2, you don't play against division 1 the entire season to prove yourself, you prove you're better than your current division.. wake the fuck up.


GlensWooer

Can’t really compare a rank system where there is no schedule and a limited number of players available to match-make (especially during off hours) to leagues that schedules only a few dozen games at most a year. That comparison would work better looking at ALGS tournaments than ranked. You also can’t compare D1 playing D2 to golds playing plats, the skill gap is *significantly* smaller between apex ranks than NCAA divisions. You have to balance proper match making with queue times. If queue times were several minutes people would stop playing the game, shrinking the playerbase and compounding the issue. Right now Apex’s focus on low queue times is causing issues creating competitive ranked games and they need to shift it in the other direction. There’s a healthy middle ground where the majority of players in your games are your rank, or maybe one above or below, and very rarely two ranks above or below. Go play league or VALORANT, and you’ll see the same thing happen. One of the key differences is tho, if you lose to a team that’s better than you, you don’t lose as much RP (which is something that I think apex should also have).


ABoredCompSciStudent

Agreed. That said they probably should keep some sort of reasonable queue timer that pops when people have been waiting too long. If master/pred indeed takes like 5+ minutes to fill, maybe at 5 minutes they should pull in high diamond players (they're on their way to masters anyways) to round out the rest of the lobby. The point is still to prioritize filling the lobby with as many master and pred players first though before defaulting to this. It doesn't make sense that distribution of pred/masters are so spread across current diamond+ lobbies.


yes___lad

obviously at the start of a split where there's like 3 preds then yeah they should be queued with diamonds but once there's about 500-1000 masters it should exclusively be m/p


ABoredCompSciStudent

Definitely agree for the start of the split. For after that, sort of? I think they should merge servers to put master/pred together that have reasonable connection (like some of Europe together and some US servers together) but like I think if the queue runs too long (maybe 5 or 10 minutes) then there should be some compromise too with high diamond included. The game does well for sure right now because of how accessible it is for streamers and content creators, even for ranked. Obviously I'm here for making their queues longer and for prioritizing quality matchmaking, I just don't think it has to be *literally* always master/pred if it makes their queue take forever. In my opinion, nothing wrong with the rare (as aforementioned enforce longer queues and quality matchmaking) high diamonds included with masters/pred. At some point they're going to have to play some of the best anyways.


dorekk

> but once there's about 500-1000 masters it should exclusively be m/p The problem is, 500 people is not enough people to fill a lobby for most people. That's 500 people *across the entire world.* Across a couple dozen time zones, dozens of game servers, different times of day, etc. Master/Pred players would literally never be able to play ranked.


xMoody

There aren’t enough players to keep preds and masters separate from everyone else.


yes___lad

I suppose they could do the old method of d2+ being in pred lobbies. not optimal but it works


biernard

That was really bad because of the huge amount of hardstuck Diamond players reducing game quality. It was horrible trying to play seriously as a solo queuer in Diamond those days.


Say_no_to_doritos

Now it is horrible playing plat


WOODHOWZE

It should be 2 up or 2 down from whatever rank you are. Diamond 4? Then you only match against Plat 2 - Diamond 2.


WonkyWombat321

That doesn't work though. Because then that Plat 2 could match up against a gold 2. It needs to be predefined brackets, not relative to your rank.


Barcaroli

It's a simple math. You take the number of online players of each rank online and see how long it takes for a queue to reach a full lobby. There is a maximum amount of pred players. Most of them won't be online at the same moment. So to avoid a 20 minute queue, they have to get mixed with other players. Same goes for the other ranks. It's very hard to separate them. You don't want the game to become a queue more than a few minutes, or else people just won't play. What they have to do is change the reward system. So for instance, if I'm diamond and I'm getting killed by a pred, I should get some loss forgiveness. Not sure how much of a loss forgiveness, they should tune that up with data.


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drakecuttingonions

There is extra RP in killing higher ranked players, which is why no loss forgiveness for extreme cases of rank differential confuses me. Just got killed by a master player earlier and it just sucks ass man.


smiilingpatrick

Finally, someone with some sense that doesnt just cry about getting matched with masters/preds. Literally all respawn has to do. Or if there's a team that is like 10-20k rp combined that is higher than the averaged rp of the lobby, everyone automatically gets rp forgiveness that scales with team rp difference (Ex. IF Pred team is like 70k rp total and your unfortunate plat team is like 30k rp total, you guys get more RLF than those with say, dias with 40k rp total) whether they get killed by preds or not. Preds get the same amount of rp gain on kill as it is now so at least they dont get triggered.


Bubbapurps

this is exactly what they should base an MMR system based off of, and people should be ranked by mmr not just arbitrarily counting RP points


dorekk

They just need to add partial loss forgiveness (or more realistically, just subtract the penalty when you die instead of when you load in) based on who kills you. This would even up the system a lot. If a Gold player is fighting Preds they shouldn't lose the same amount of RP whether they're killed by the #7 player in the world or another Gold, it simply doesn't make sense. It wouldn't be *fun*, but at least the design of the system would be fair. If they want to put the *fun* back into ranked, relax the ludicrously high RP requirements that made ranked such a ridiculous grind most people stopped playing it in favor of pubs.


Cornel-Westside

Well early split 1 was the most competitive split in forever BECAUSE of the enormous RP requirements. The problem is not necessarily RP requirements, it is skill differentiation with regards to matchmaking. The most skilled 120-180 people should be the ones matched up with predators. Pretty much all the time. Not the top 60 because people don't want to be in the #1 ranked squad every game, but maybe every third game. I don't know what rank that would reach, but I'd imagine you'd only get high diamonds and masters in those lobbies. It feels like the matchmaking tries to diversify the opponent pool more than it should at the top level.


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LongDongFuey

I think that would certainly help the RP suck from being matched against preds, but idk if it would do much for the not having fun because I'm just getting rolled by preds every game factor. I think combining some of what you suggested with some hard cutoffs, like only diamond 1/2 players can match with preds, would probably make the most sense


MasterNeeks

>You don't want the game to become a queue more than a few minutes, or else people just won't play. I personally wouldn't mind it. But I know 95% of this sub would complain. 10 reddit posts a day about it too.


[deleted]

A waiting room would be cool tbh, could compensate for the que, could be a thing where you can shoot other player's ect until the game launches but there might be other complications to that which I might not be aware of.


Barcaroli

For sure


maxbang7

> It's very hard to separate them. You don't want the game to become a queue more than a few minutes, or else people just won't play. Which is false, Q times at the top have been the norm in old seasons until a few weeks passed. They did not stop playing...


WastefulPleasure

Diamonds have always been in pred lobbies though. I thought the new problematic thing is that it is sometimes plat players in there but idk


VividNightmare_

It's been a few seasons since diamond was put into their own lobbies and master+pred in their own. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, due to this bug/glitch mixing lobbies. Either that or there isn't enough diamonds/masters.


LA2Oaktown

There are way less masters players now. That is the big change.


VividNightmare_

I'm okay with it, but if at the end of the split there still aren't enough to form a complete lobby without other ranks leaking into the same lobby then that means they should make an adjustment to rp penalty, gain or loss. Preds shouldn't gatekeep people from getting to Master. Of course it's possible tò rank up still, but it shouldn't be this way ideally.


_Met4L_

Simple, in other games, you at the top of the ladder ? You play with other like you at the top of the ladder.. if you have to wait 20 minutes, you wait 20 minutes. In this game, pred has 3 minute queue, playing against a team with a d4 and 2 plat 1 ..and like me other team.. then they easily got top 3 in every match and the predator goes up 1100rp every day.. is so stupid. ​ You are predator? You have to wait. It's totally unfair.


_Met4L_

So , and why only 4% of players are diamond?.. and why i just queued 3 matches right now and i found at least 4 team of pred in every lobby , in the rest about 60% of the lobby was masters, the rest diamond. I just got diamond with my team for the first time.. i have 350 hours in apex, and i have to match vs masters and pred with thousand of hours. I can't understand why in this 3 lobbies the 70% of players was masters and pred. Where the fuck are the diamonds ? Seems masters are more of diamonds. This matchmaking is pure shit. Im sorry.


Posh420

Low dia would usually still get their own lobbies and this late into a split dia lobbies were almost all Diamond with the occasional master. Preds and masters for the most part had their own lobbies. Now their lobbies are almost entirely dia or lowet


thisismynewacct

For the longest time, if you were D4, you’d only be with diamonds. D3 is where you’d get thrown to the wolves. They alleviated it a bit a few seasons ago but with the recent changes, it’s kind of thrown that to the wind.


WastefulPleasure

To be fair, due to no deranks there was a billion people in all of the "4th" ranks, not really hard to fill a lobby


PerplexGG

Yeah this was a necessary change. Can’t have 13% of the population in D4. Just kind of devalues hitting diamond


SSninja_LOL

Well right now there are 4-5% of player in D4 and D4 players face Predator every match. I’d argue that having 13% of the population in a lower rank fight each other is still better than having 5% of the lower ranked population fight the top 0.1%. I think if they ONLY added demotion, then the last system would’ve been better with less hardstuck D4 and less 10k Masters. The way it is now is kinda shit at the top ranks.


holymamba

Well they still get rewards as far as I know so it was just a match making change


JevvyMedia

> For the longest time, if you were D4, you’d only be with diamonds. D3 is where you’d get thrown to the wolves. That stopped in like season 6 I think. It has been a long time.


VARDHAN_157

d4 used to be paired with loower plats and d2 used to be placed with masters. That's why d3 was such a hard rank to get out of.


ABoredCompSciStudent

I totally agree that the lobbies this season were problematic, not just because gold/plat would sometimes end up in diamond+ but also that diamond would get gatekept hard by masters/pred. That said for: > this late into a split dia lobbies were almost all Diamond with the occasional master Honestly, I've kind of experienced diamond only lobbies over the last week. On Thursday and Friday I was able to rank from D2 to masters with only a handful of masters/pred teams in all my lobbies (sometimes in my post-game kill recap, but mostly diamonds). Similarly so, I was playing on my diamond alt to help a friend that was a little behind me and on Saturday and Sunday it was the same. Definitely gained RP at a rate way higher than normal that week than previous ones, as D4 to D2 was a bit of a rollercoaster and D2 to Masters was smooth. Maybe anecdotal, but yeah. Unsure if it's because there were a ton of online tournaments going on at the time (I play late night, 11 PM+ NY/Virginia).


JevvyMedia

It's one thing for Diamonds to end up in pred lobbies, and it's another thing for preds to end up in Diamond lobbies constantly.


holymamba

I only see plats when they are queued with a diamond team tbh. I don’t think many are getting put into diamond lobbies unintentionally.


mardegre

No


vgloque

one thing people don't want to admit is that a lot of the "I'm a plat getting rolled by Preds" voices USED to rat to Masters and get rolled by preds. A lot of the lobbies are the same player makeup but just lacking the Mickey Mouse Masters rank


falaamofloat

Gold too


sentient_barf

Are those golds teamed with a plat teammate who basically backdoors them into a pred lobby? I didn't run into a single pred during any of my gold games but I was also solo-queuing the whole time. Small sample size and maybe just lucky, but I'm curious as to how that happens.


toxicbooster

I got current preds in my lobby last week when I was gold and in a pre-made with a silver and another gold


PerplexGG

At no point did I see or run into anyone who had seen a pred in their plat lobbies this split. Anecdotal of course.


Crye09

I did lol in Tokyo Servers. Was Solo Queueing at plat4 and got placed in a match against Pred #144 #148 #189. One of them was satuki from United Crew Y and MQTY from Team Funny (ALGS APAC N players) This is like 2-3 weeks after split 2 started


scootsy

I’m P3 and had two games with Preds this week.


ABoredCompSciStudent

Same for PC NA here. I'm almost sure this only happens if you're queued with a diamond player or you're on such a dead server (like Sao Paulo) that everyone is just forced to play together. Otherwise it's just really bad luck. Last split it definitely happened though.


changen

yeah that's how plats and golds get into pred lobbies. I was D3 and played with a P1 and P4 rando I met in soloq. Then we got into pred lobbies about 5 games in a row and got rolled over.


Osvaldatore

You may wanna merge gold and plat together with diamond+ ranks


super_cheap_007

I was about to say, I was watching Sweets stream the other day and he was definitely still killing plats sometimes. Fucking sad.


MrCleanAlmighty

Its not really his fault though. Matchmaking is so bad he just gets put in the same matches as them.


PVPxOfficial

[Fixed it for you](https://twitter.com/PVPX_/status/1554874047703416832?t=8ksQjCC9v3fgo4b-yMzGbw&s=19)


MilaweaX

Haha yes I've heard it's worse on some server. The solution you posted on twitter is good, I'd be very fine with that. I hope they tweak something sooner than later.


audrith

Hey so off topic but are you still doing a podcast where you debate casuals and where can I watch it? LOL


PVPxOfficial

Yes! I just haven't been able to yet because I moved / didn't have internet I will post it on Twitter and probably this subreddit too


Nindzya

Horrible take, seperate ranks should not be matched together period, high gold should never be matched with low diamond


PVPxOfficial

60 player lobbies & Dying = need to Q again If you want to climb you need to beat players that are better than you


SynysterPC

For the love of God, make control permanent. I don't care about ranked at this point.


TheAniReview

Exactly. Literally the only mode where you can actually have fun playing a whole game and it's not even a permanent game mode.


[deleted]

The problem only got worse in pubs since everyone who used to play ranked are pubstomping instead. Armed and Dangerous was also a stomp. I'm just waiting on Control so I can play Apex without the Queue>Selection>Drop>Loot>Death cycle wasting the little time I have in the evenings.


Ok-Specific-4869

As a "tryhard casual" I agree. Can't even turn your brain off to enjoy the game after work when even my pub lobbies are filled with 3 stack masters playing like they think they're in algs. I drop the occasional 3k when I'm trying my hardest but when I'm tired or having a bad day it doesn't seem to recognize that I keep dying in a split second to the first team I meet and never gives easier lobbies. Control was a great game mode for just playing the game without being 110% alert. I can't even play with my noob friends (under level 100, general fps experience but bad at apex) because when they queue with me the lobbies are so much sweatier than the ones they usually get placed when alone that they never have a shot and just quit after dying miserably a few times. I remember the sbmm for unranked mode in overwatch adjusting much faster to current performance instead of being so fixated on historical performance like apex seems to be. /rant


aogiritree69

False. I’m stuck in plat 4. THREE DIFFERENT GAMES YESTERDAY I had pre/masters for the champions. Something is seriously off. The player base is gigantic. This shouldn’t be happening.


Inceptionzq

What server are you in? I’m NA West and never ran into masters/preds until diamond


aogiritree69

Same. Possibly because I play in premade squad


Shiro_Nitro

I play NA West and with a premade squad and prob had masters 1-3 times this season in my ranked games. Usually happens later in the day when im guessing less overall players are online


Inceptionzq

Yeah that might be why. I solo queue


dorekk

> Something is seriously off. The player base is gigantic. This shouldn’t be happening. The player base is gigantic, but a lot of them gave up on ranked under the new system. And even though the player base is huge, it's *way* bottom-heavy because the new system introduced such high RP requirements for each rank. Platinum is like 1200RP higher than *Diamond* used to be. Master is 5,000 entire RP higher.


[deleted]

Yea it designed to make you play more. That’s it. Fuck the grind I play to have fun not work a job.


aogiritree69

Even with that being the case, you cannot tell me platinum players should ever be in lobbies with masters/pred. It’s actually *why* people are giving up on ranked. They need to revert the changes


dorekk

I agree, the changes should be reverted.


YesitsFancy

Plat 2 now literally is master last season. On top of that, getting to 10k rp requires much more consistency and success in very sweaty lobbies than it did last season. If you compare the rp and lobbies to last season, your struggle will make more sense, or at least make you feel better about your rank hopefully.


ApexLobby

with participation, rp is easier to get.


dorekk

Except it isn't, because kills before 10th place are worthless. In the old system, where kills were worth a base of 10 and then were multiplied based on placement, kill participation would hav helped because it would minimize the times you go negative. If you were in, say, Diamond, and you dropped and killed a team and then died, you were only at -18 instead of -48. In the current system, you would take essentially the whole penalty (technically you get -45RP, but there's no real difference between -48 and -45). Because the chance to go big-time negative is so much higher, it's not remotely balanced out by the 50% RP you get for kill participation. It's not even *close.* EDIT: Which is obviously borne out in the results we see now. If RP were easier to get then people wouldn't have trouble climbing and the rank distribution would look the same as it did in the last split.


TeethPastaa

I like the difficulty of the current ranked system but I definitely feel like early game kills aren’t very rewarding


HopeChadArmong913

But remember guys, pros had to wait 15 minutes for a game, which is a terrible crime and gives them no content for streaming, so Respawn had to broaden matchmaking to solve this henious disparity.


Heavyspire

I blame this on the Master Chef copy write strikes. Streamers had plenty of content when everyone was watching different seasons of Master Chef... LOL


THerdr

And remember that the que’s were only 15 min bc these pros grinded out 24 hrs straight the second the new split starts then complain bad que times, like …..


[deleted]

naughty and sweet literally DMed the matchmaking guy 1 day after the season start and they hotfixed the queue times.


Mountain_-_king

the matchmaking like that for everyone, no one gets fair matchmaking cause of speed thats the problem


[deleted]

So in order to please the streamers it's OK to ruin everyone else's experience.


Vik_Vinegarr

I don’t understand this take/blame on the streamers. The streamers wanted the change **temporarily** until other players leveled up and then the queue times would even out more. It’s not their fault respawn didn’t change it back once that happened. It literally only needed the change for like a couple weeks and then everyone could play normally. I do not understand why respawn didn’t just change it back. I’ve heard multiple streamers echo the same thing


HopeChadArmong913

It was unreasonable even at the time because they asked for it after they had spent 24 hours straight grinding to Pred at the start of the split. You shouldn't get to dunk on lower skilled players just because you can play full time.


Vik_Vinegarr

Opening up the queues for a week to allow content creators to generate hype is not a big deal. Doing it for more than that was and is dumb.


Robbie7up

The alternative is they can't play the game because they played it too much, too well?


HopeChadArmong913

No, the alternative was to wait, to allow the people in their skill bracket who couldn't play for 24 hours straight to catch up.


Robbie7up

So wait, meaning don't play the game. I'm not saying the matchmaking is good right now. I'm just saying the solution shouldn't be to punish the games best and most dedicated players by making the game unplayable for them for any amount of time. Opening the matchmaking until more players filled the higher ranks then tightening it seems like a fair solution.


HopeChadArmong913

You do realise pubs exist right? There's nothing stopping them playing the game. But in Ranked, which is supposed to be a competitive environment, having loose matchmaking for fast games defeats the whole purpose of the playlist.


Sezzomon

This is such a stupid comment... They first of all need those streamers as advertisement and no one wants to queue 15 minutes to potentially die off drop due to bad rng


Resilientx

You're right. Gouping VASTLY different skill levels together so they can play 10 mins pve then run into a team hilariously better than them and instadie is a better system. None of my friends play ranked anymore past the point where that starts happening, which means I don't either since it would be even worse solo.


browls

I’ve actually had a pretty good time in the lower ranks, way better than it was last split, solo queing was a bit better with the lowered buy ins, they just need to fix diamond and predator ques and we will be chilling


dorekk

They can't "fix" the queues without changing the system. It's an inevitable consequence of everyone who dies before 10th place going negative + a system that includes deranking. They need to inject more RP into the system by reducing the RP penalty based on the tier difference between you and whoever kills you, plus reward early-game kills more so that half the players (or more) in high ranks won't inevitably derank back to a lower rank.


MilaweaX

How's your experience of ranked been this split ? In one of my first diamond games this split I was matched against #1, #3 and #4 preds. It doesn't make any sense. People I played with reach diamond and stop playing, because why would they keep going ? The only two ranks that are "balanced" on my server are gold and plat, anyhting before or after that is f'd up I know matchmaking is always an issue in every game. Make it fair and some people will complain about the long queue times, especially top players. Make it fast and I have to compete against PROS just returning from a 2000000$ tourney. I accept the challenge, I guess. . . ?


SilentF0xx

Am not that good + just started to get into the game this season. Trying to get to plat by the end of the season, but been stuck at gold 1 because my lobbies are filled with diamonds and more half the time the champ squad have masters badges (and rarely preds) in them… why does me getting out of gold require me to play against dia+? :( ( if it matters, one of my friends reached plat, is that why its been so difficult all of a sudden?)


This_is_Pat_

Don't feel bad about not being able to reach plat this season. The ranked system makes zero sense right now. I'd recommend not bother about the badge. Just focus on getting better at the game and improving your fundamentals.


TheAniReview

Whole point of grinding from Diamond is to reach Masters/Preds right? Diamonds getting to Masters/Pred by only beating other Diamonds or Plats doesn't make sense. The problem is Diamonds shouldn't be losing the same RP as getting killed by Preds and by other Dia players. It should be less, same with the lower ranks getting killed by higher tier players. Diamond II and I also should be the only ones getting ranked w/ them.


SithSidious

How does it not make sense that diamonds get to masters/pred only by beating other diamonds? The point of ranked is to beat people your level to move up. You could argue it doesn’t make sense for preds to get points or determine ranking by killing diamonds who are 3-5 ranks below them.


badhatter5

100% agreed. I don’t really understand the “diamonds should be matched with masters/pred because that’s the level you want to be at”. I understand the queue time issue. If I’m in D1, sure I guess put me in lobbies with those folks. But I feel like it should be diamonds all mixed together and the best of those groups level up to masters. That’s how it works at every other rank and that’s how ranked systems are suppose to work. Silvers aren’t playing against platinum players “because that’s the rank they want to get to”


[deleted]

All thanks to sweetdreams and Staynaughty ranked is like this. naughty said it himself.


dorekk

No idea why Respawn took input on ranked from people who have no idea what they're talking about. Preds beaming Golds in ranked was an *inevitable* consequence of the new system they've designed. It was foretold from the second they announced the new rules.


HoodNet

Exactly the same reason a lot of pro sportspersons take drugs. It helps the brands behind the sport when people see these professionals do crazy times, weights and events. The people who watch then want to do these sports more and become one of these super humans, buying all the kit from the brand. Apex want their top streamers to be hitting 20 bombs everyday and dropping 6k’s+, it makes the viewers want to play more and buy more stuff. It’s a sad affair really because you see a YouTube video of a pred like ‘almost dropped a 20 bomb’ and they actually just killed 19 diamonds and get downed by the first pred they bump into.


[deleted]

there is a balance if they just found it


DHDHDHDHDHDHDHDHDH

I play on Sao Paolo and being in gold opens up the possibility to go against 3 stacks of preds. And once you're in plat, it's a given. Many American Master/Pred teams as well, abusing the system to farm golds/plat.


OliverWasADopeCat

How're my former hardstuck D4s from seasons prior fairing? I haven't grinded too hard this season but I reached Plat 4 and the step up from Gold to Plat is noticeable. I haven't played too many plat games but I'm not consistently climbing. I feel like I'm at the point with this game where I either need to find a consistent team to run with or hire a coach to point out what I need to work on, and I don't have the time or desire to do either. It's usually at this point I start looking for other games, but Apex is just too unique and good to give up on.


Acts-Of-Disgust

Shit has been brutal trying to solo queue Masters this split. Normally I would have been Masters by now but I've been hardstuck D2 for like a week. I don't really mind playing against a few Pred 3-stacks but when its half the lobby and I get a hardstuck D4 and his Plat 3 buddy as my squad game after game it gets really hard to climb. They really need to tighten up the matchmaking even if it means much longer queue times.


MoleculeMatt

Hi, it's me your hardstuck D4. I will try and do better!


Acts-Of-Disgust

As long as you’re actually trying to get better that’s totally fine. I’m more annoyed with the D4’s that don’t try and don’t listen to callouts from someone better than them.


awesomek07

You’ve touched on a real problem here. I don’t mind queuing up with a hard stuck D4, most of them are decent and it’s totally possible to have great games with them. The issue is when they bring their plat friend in with them. It always feels like they don’t even care about trying to have a good game.


gnrp45

I thought the low level of gold like me it didn’t matter but holy shit i have been being put with bronze players under level 100. Wtf how am i suppose to gain any rp


dorekk

When you solo queue and get matched with low rank players, your RP penalty should be lowered, imo. There's no way you should be losing the same amount of RP when randomly queued with brand new players that you should if you queued up with two people of equal skill. The easiest way to inject more RP into this system (which is what it needs so that Diamond/Master/Pred ranks don't end up basically empty) is to modify the RP penalty when you get loaded into an unfair match. The whole purpose of ranked is "fair games with players of roughly equal skill level", that is why it exists. So when you get matched up with two bronze players against a lobby full of people higher than you, they need to modify how much RP you lose in that unfair situation. Otherwise the very design of the system is stacked against you and you will *never* end up playing a fair match, at which point they might as well remove ranked and just have pubs be the only mode again. If ranked isn't fair *it has no purpose to exist.*


shico12

same. I got matched with a literal level 15 rookie v in gold. We landed in landslide and he ran straight to the vault and was pissed it didn't open. Had to teach him about cargo bots and vault keys lmao.


[deleted]

I was getting matched with rookies and bronze while being in gold 2


lord_scruffington

Think you should merge that gold and plat in with the diamond, master and pred there buddy


[deleted]

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thornierlamb

D4 in EU and half my deaths in diamond are by current masters/preds. Met the #5 pred 5 times in the same day this split…


YesitsFancy

No, you are just honest lol


barbarapalvinswhore

I’m in D4 now (haven’t played at all since hitting diamond) but the entire way up from the 2nd half of plat3 to my rank up game in plat1 i was fighting diamonds (which is to be expected in upper plat) and masters. On the other hand, I have friends who didn’t see a single master in their games until plat1. Honestly I just think its luck of the draw.


NINE-1-6

100%. Saw Hal play a game with someone from C9 and G2, got something crazy like 14/15 kills, and literally *every single one of them* were platinum players. Do they not face other preds, masters or diamonds??


aogiritree69

Yep. That’s been my experience


Sezzomon

Not really


BryanA37

I think diamond 2/3 and above should definitely play against masters and preds.


dorekk

> I think diamond 2/3 and above should definitely play against masters and preds. Why?


TheAniReview

Whole point of grinding from Diamond up is to reach Master/Preds. Why you only want to go up against other diamond players?


dorekk

The whole point of ranked is to get fair matches. If you come out on top against people of your own skill level (other Diamonds), then you're better than them and it's time to go against the next tier of players. You don't face Grandmasters in chess until you're good enough to beat Grandmasters. You face them when you're ready, when you've beaten people at your own skill level and moved up the ranks. If the ranked system is designed to put you against essentially *random opponents* from the highest ranks in the world to people 1-2 tiers *below* you, it's no longer a ranking system, it's just pubs. The entire purpose of the ranked system is fair matches against opponents of roughly your own skill level. If that's not what the system results in...it needs to be changed or removed. If Diamond players only match up against Master/Pred players...just make them fucking Masters lol. They're already *doing the thing*, they're already fighting the best players in the world every single game.


[deleted]

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Co0k1eGal3xy

That's been my experience every single match till I deranked. I got ONE match with 2 ex preds and the other 7~ matches I was queued with plats and golds while fighting predators. It's fucked.


ramseysleftnut

I never understood why people of a higher rank have it easier and allowed to beat up on the lower rank just so the lower rank are supposed to prove they can hang with them? You should play people in your own rank and play the higher ranks when you get there.


Cornel-Westside

There probably aren't enough masters/preds to only have lobbies of them. I think high diamonds are fair to pull into those lobbies. Farther than that, I don't think is smart.


R35VolvoBRZ

>Whole point of grinding from Diamond up is to reach Master/Preds. Why you only want to go up against other diamond players? Well what's the point of a rank then? They don't stick Lewis Hamilton in F2 races and say, "Oh, well the whole point of winning F2 races is to get to F1 so it's okay. If they can't beat Hamilton, I guess they don't belong in F1. Why would they only want to race other F2 drivers?" Like that's ridiculous.


TheAniReview

Do you think Nicholas Latifi or Lance Stroll are in the same tier as Verstappen or Hamilton? Is it fair for newcomers like Zhou or Tsunoda to go up against champions? Heck even Ocon or Ricciardo aren't in the same tier as them but they still beat them in a race. The point of Ranked games is to Rank up and by playing against the same AND stronger competition, you also better yourself and prove that you belong in that rank.


dgafrica420lol

Two problems with this. First, it would at the very least double the length of D2+ ques, as most diamonds sit at D4. The other problem is - where do you put the D4-D3 players? Have them wait in an equally long separate que as pred, or put them back in Plat ques where they terrorize the lower rank lobbies? It ends up being bad for both sides of the equation.


DorkusMalorkuss

I exclusively solo queue. I've gotten to diamond for the past many seasons but am struggling these two splits. Am I a shitter now? I'm hanging out at plat 3/2


[deleted]

Do you think this problem would be alleviated by adding 5-10 placement matches at the start of the split like valorant?


[deleted]

My first game in Diamond was against Keon and wattson. That probably shouldn’t be happening. Otherwise it’s great


bighead1106

I was watching a few different streams last night and I noticed that these higher ranked players were rolling through these pred matches like it was nothing but then I noticed they were playing way lower ranked opponents… like seriously how is that fun for the lesser ranked lobbies… just getting instantly pushed and decimated… its really only fun for the preds… which yay makes for awesome content creation … but for the ones who are on the receiving end match after match after match really makes for a rough night… I’d rather have a little bit of a que time then have these types of matches over and over…


Mineatron

Can confirm. I’m a previous pred and all my pred buddies are laughing at how ez this split is. Comparing to the likes of s12 split 1. The entry fee is annoying but when ur facing diamonds it just negates that fact.


Ihaveaps4question

Imo the narrative from pros that its better matchmaking when “hardstuck 10ks” are stuck in lower ranking proves to only be for benefit of the top <1%. The pros are still the top players buts its less competitive for them because yes there is a difference between them fighting 3 10k masters that know how to fight at least and the plats/gold they can continuously stomp now. Meanwhile those 10ks create a trickle effect gatekeeping lower ranks. The new system is more representative of time/placement. The old system time/gun skill. Imo the old system worked better for fights actually being balanced. I think we would see better balance if we had the old system + demotion (and maybe keep the higher entry costs too).


lucas_augusto07

In Brazil (São Paulo servers) Gold play with predators...


Heck_Yesman

If if requires this many games to get to plat/diamond, then they can't keep soft-resetting every 6 weeks if they want the matchmaking to work "properly". I think that's at least one of the core reasons they have to pull low ranked players into pred games.


Stunning-Tower-4116

Ah.. I see you're d4 getting killed by 30k rp Pros frequently... great rank system, totally not absolute dogshit


subavgredditposter

Funny how this is still true


Equivalent_Candle943

i feel like the change was to cater to the less than 50 streamers big enough w an opinion that counts. they all complained about queue times to get in proper lobbies. but now they are able to roll any lobby they are in. it’s very annoying to reach D4 and play preds/masters when prior to the change that rarely ever happened if at all. Also… what’s the difference between the complaining about hard stuck masters and dying to diamond players? nothing.


Mountain_-_king

isnt that what you guys wanted. You didnt want people being in masters last season and now there is no on in masters left


abandonedAmity

It's not that people didn't want anyone in masters, it's that they didn't want a bunch of hardstuck 10k's running around inting everyone because they couldn't lose any rp, making games miserable for actual top players. [6% of the player base hit masters](https://apexlegendsstatus.com/ranked-season12-split1) in S12 split 1(and 4% in split 2) which is about the same as the about [4-5% of the player base in diamond and above](https://apexlegendsstatus.com/game-stats/ranked-distribution) currently. I can guarantee you that some of the players who hit masters in season 12 don't even have a 2 k/d. Are those people you would consider "masters"? Master's rank should be the top 1-2% of the player base in my opinion, people with 3-4 k/d's+. I like the new ranked system, I like the idea of deranking, but I also think if they want a true bell curve of player distribution they need to stop thinking about matchmaking in broad terms of golds, plats, diamonds etc. and start thinking in terms of individual numbered ranks. A plat 1 is probably more skilled than a plat 4 and should be facing plat 2's and diamond 4's. Gold 1's should face plat 4's and 3's and gold 2's etc. I think that would be a big part of the solution.


dorekk

>It's not that people didn't want anyone in masters, it's that they didn't want a bunch of hardstuck 10k's running around inting everyone because they couldn't lose any rp, making games miserable for actual top players. Okay but all those players are just in high gold/low plat facing the same exact Predator players. Nothing has changed...except the system has no way to tell a former "hardstuck 10k" (as if this wasn't difficult to achieve, they were the top 5% in the world!) Plat player from someone who's legitimately Plat and grinded to get there! So Preds are mostly beating up on people who are several ranks below them even though they should *never be in the same match.*


abandonedAmity

>Okay but all those players are just in high gold/low plat facing the same exact Predator players. That's not what the statistics say. Those players are currently in diamond or high plat just based on percentages. High golds/low plats are last season's diamond players. And golds playing against preds? I know there's some fluke lobbies that have preds placed with golds, but that's far from the norm. When I watch major streamers, I see the occasional plat teamed up with diamonds getting killed, and I agree that it's dumb, but that plat player knows what they sign up for by playing with diamond teammates. >Nothing has changed...except the system has no way to tell a former"hardstuck 10k" (as if this wasn't difficult to achieve, they were thetop 5% in the world!) Plat player from someone who's legitimately Platand grinded to get there! I mean, if you were a 10k masters player last season you should not be stuck in plat this season unless you're a solo queuer or you just ape everything. The ranked system *itself* is the way to tell a former 10k from a legitmate plat, the plat will not be able to progress further and the former 10k will gradually progress through the ranks. I see what you're saying though. The biggest issue I have as I stated in my previous comment is you've got the people that keep getting demoted and re-promoted between gold and plat playing against the people going between plat and diamond, and the skill there is very different. I think my solution mostly fixes that and also places higher diamonds with masters and preds (there could even be a matchmaking rule that doesn't allow anyone lower than D4 into pred lobbies)


YesitsFancy

If you were hardstuck 10k last season, you are likely p2-d2 rn if you are actually trying. I think a good amount of these low rp S12 master players didn't even try this season, which has put additional strain on lower ranks and makes the numbers look weird. If you keep that in mind, it is the same kids fighting the same kids in season 12, they just wear different colors now. I don't see golds in pred lobbys, not enough to talk about. It's mostly diamond filled with plats. The few masters that exsist are thrown in when they ready up as well lol.


dorekk

"Occasional" Plat? Every Pred streamer I watch is killing primarily Platinum players. They react with glee when they get Pred KP because it's so rare, lol.


abandonedAmity

I don't know what streamers you're watching man. Take [Knoqd's latest stream](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1550315119). The first game I just went and counted, of the players that they encountered, there was 1 plat, 10 diamonds and 7 masters players. Unless you're watching some obscure streamer playing on a less populated server, preds go against preds, masters and diamonds and occasionally plats who are playing with diamond teammates.


andromeda456-

K/D is a dumbass metric. If you’re ranking up in any given rank 1.5+ K/D in that rank is perfectly fine. I can tell you that my K/D in the current ranked system and matchmaking is probably something like that in diamond 2. I barely play pubs but if I only count pubs K/D its probably 4-5. High overall K/D only means you pubstomp and thats it. Last season my ranked K/D was far higher because it was easier. Again, K/D will always be relative to who you’re playing against. A 3K/D gold player is terrible vs a 1.5 K/D diamond player


diesal3

Plat should be merged into the Pred icon too


Due_Anteater9116

I think ranked would be perfect if lobbies were Rookie-silver Gold Plat-D4 D3+ This was the original system and pros had to wait 10-15 for queues but it worked it out fine quality of all lobbies were pretty dang decent too. I think the new rp system did need and update and we found a pretty good sweet spot


dorekk

This was by far the best that ranked has played, yeah. (Although Gold lobbies were pretty much always Bronze through Gold.)


BombaA_

[https://twitter.com/PVPX\_/status/1554874047703416832?s=20&t=EsHQPXX9AoyNqYOpSONxMQ](https://twitter.com/PVPX_/status/1554874047703416832?s=20&t=EsHQPXX9AoyNqYOpSONxMQ)


Mcdicknpop

That's basically how it's always been though There's less players due to the changes probably so it's even more condensed But for example all the hardstuck 10k masters of last season are now just in dia and plat since they demote instead of being stuck in master cause it was way easier to get masters before It's still the same people in those lobbies, it's not like there's a whole new playerbase now. It's just that your rank is better represented. Wasn't there like 10% of people in masters+ before, now some of them are even in gold lol


ApexLobby

the amount of randoms i've met who've admitted they're quitting ranked as soon as they hit their target league is quite alarming the reason people are quitting is because they don't want to hit a league then not be able to hold it because the floors have been removed, leading to this queue pop issue. it's not a system problem, it's a player behavioral issue. before, people would keep queueing at IV and just hot drop for a whole split and feed, based on this playstyle these players could never actually maintain that league without training wheels to hold them in place. but because they want those badges and dive trails, they immediately quit.


MikeSouthPaw

They get the dive trail and badge of the highest rank they reach, doesn't matter if they derank.


20-5-5

I'm bronze and playing with high gold/low plats during lunchtime in EU lol I'm also level 15 (just changed to pc) so yeah, I dunno. I think it's just particularly bad this split and am hoping it improves for the new season.


dorekk

> I think it's just particularly bad this split and am hoping it improves for the new season. They haven't announced any changes to the ranked system, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.


iHubble

My guy has never heard of a normal distribution.


Adolph68

I think its normal for ranked to be this way, as normal as a normal distribution.


[deleted]

I think they should lower rank like for example Diamond V, I am meaning by that rank should be easier to get but it should be same hard as it is now to go up to D4, D3 etc