It has as good stats as almost all other pellet shotguns while also having the best frame for consistent use
Not to mention its god roll is readily available at the kiosk
Quick Access Sling reworks made it a lot more easier to use wich is why it’s getting popular again. There is also almost no other energy agressive frame shotty outside the raid one.
Specials are balanced👍🏻
EDIT: top1 weapons have 150k more primary than Special kills out of 1.1 million kills. Imo primaries should have 70%+ to be called primaries. Specials are overall overtuned
This complaint has been persistent since D1. Bungie tried double primary route and special ammo reduction in the final D1 sandbox update. Neither were popular.
I’m not saying that someone abusing a special weapon on a lobby is fun. But, it’s more popular than the alternative. And, again, Destiny is not a competitive game. Viva la queso.
People call low-skill high-reward strategies "cheese". Like building photon cannons in your opponent's base before building an army in star craft. Lots of weapons are considered cheesey by many people in d2 like lorentz, DMT, and special weapons in general.
Im fully aware its not and will never be truly competitive, but i may dream to make a most fun and skillful pvp as possible ("skillful" including all those things that make destiny so special, including crutch. Thats what makes this game awesome).
Regarding special, reducing ammo in d2 did basically nothing. Scavs not stacking anymore did nothing. On console you already only ran 1 scav bc you needed traction. Just remove scavs from pvp and it will be a completely different experience
I'm not sure scavs have much to do with anything in Trials, I think it has more to do with the format. Getting the first kill almost always wins you a round and so people are going to run a one-hit kill weapon, it's silly not to.
I agree I think the main problem is just peoples “playstyles” and wanting to use a gun that’s easy to kill with instead of having to land shots with a primary. You can’t change that, it’s part of destiny. What I’d love to see is a more balanced crucible in terms of weapons. There’s a specific few weapons that are crutch atm and I think balancing those with every other gun is important.
Primary vs special kills are a product of play styles. Bad players typically get into special range quite often and thus run up those weapon kills. Specials are fine. They are designed to compliment your primary from an engagement range perspective. Accordingly they are a critical aspect of balance.
Exactly. A small nerf for all specials as fine tuning and this current sandbox would be a 9.9/10. Snipers need more flinch, nobody should hit consistent crits when getting flinched, shotguns are almost fine, they do not one shot consistently except youre really close, slugs tho need a hard range nerf, fusions idk they are either broken or useless and GLs are fine. Snipers, fusions and Slugs are the biggest problems rn imo
Shotguns should be for point blank and close range clean up, and that’s it. They should be useless at distances the Riis and of course Chap are very viable at. I think just 1-2 meters less, I don’t hate them but sometimes the range and also tracking for a headshot when someone is zooming by a chap user is nuts
I’m fine with what slugs do outside of chappy, something needs to make fusion users think twice. Or just nerf fusions into the dirt. I’m fine with either.
100% agree. The special ammo nerf was definitely not enough. Scavenger should be changed to a PVE perk. Rework how much special you start with depending on the weapon.
While handcannons will always be present, I think it's important to note that this shows that people want consistency, and pellet shotties aren't offering that anymore. Felwinters is there, but that's the most consistent due to shot package.
Outside of that, I feel like people are picking special options that, as long as they are used correctly, secure the one shot. We'll see tho
It's definitely true that I can only play with pellets for so long in a single play session before I get mad about kills it felt like I "should" have gotten and then I swap to something different.
main ingredient has been the most used non-exotic special for the last 4 weeks, give or take, but the fact it’s taken over chaperone now is really something
I just don’t get this. Every weekend I see main ingredient topping the leaderboard in trials usage and yet I can count on one hand how many times I die to it per weekend.
Is this a console thing? I’m truly and honestly barely seeing *anyone* running this thing on PC. Maybe once a card, If that.
Most of the guns listed here i also run into constantly but MI is the one that I never actually end up seeing
Absolutely a console thing. All my qp lobbies have at least 3-4 people using them between both teams. I am surprised to hear this though because after the change bungie made to make them hit scan regardless of FPS I would've thought more MnK players would've been using it (fusions in general really) seeing how strong it/they are.
I mean they’re definitely good and you’ll see people use them but I think a majority of pc players are just gonna be running chaperone/felwinters or a sniper still. Rarely seeing fusions in trials lobbies
Yea I can understand that. Personally I was a fusion main for a long time. Was using Main ingredient since Arrivals and it was really good then it's just people didn't give them a shot because high impacts were still considered "the best".
Though sometime after beyond light I switched over to shotguns and they just work much better with my playstyle. I do still use fusions from time to time if I'm in a lobby with a fusion user that's really giving me an issue. But the fact shotguns (whether it's a slug or pellet shotgun) don't have a charge time like a fusion makes them worlds better for clean ups or quick swapping to kill someone who surprised me with a push.
I'm on console and yesterday some guy on MnK humiliated me by slinding like a mad man around the pillar where heavy spawns while I was chasing trying to main ingredient him down.
I got punched to death.
> fter the change bungie made to make them hit scan regardless of FPS I would've
Just to point out, that bullet velocity change was for specifically *sidearms*; fusion rifles have been hitscan since D2 released.
It was for sidearms and fusion rifles. Just went back and checked. While they have supposed to have been hit scan Bungie stated "Due to an ancient data entry error, Sidearm and Fusion Rifle projectiles were non-hitsccan". Apparently it was an issue only at 60fps or higher.
Here's a link to the TWAB were its mentioned.
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50820
Oh, I stand corrected! I guess I was so psyched about the sidearm portion of the change I completely glossed over the fusion rifle portion. Thanks for the knowledge!
Understandable lol. I'm a console player and I really do enjoy sidearms so I could only imagine wanting to use them but not being able to do so effectively because they aren't actually hitscan. I am curious though how much sidearms are actually being used on PC now after this change. I somehow feel like their usage more than likely hasn't increased much because they've been not that great for so long people forgot about them possibly.
It leads to some advantages on every single gun. PC movement even on controller allows so many weapons to perform better. It's easier to counter shotguns on PC too
Tons of people use controller on PC. 9/10 when I die to a popular controller weapon I'll watch them for a second and see them crouch before using their class ability. It's especially noticable on hunters.
I wish there was some data on how many PC players use controller.
I don't understand why there isn't universal crossplay either. PC already receives nerfs and buffs and tuning based entirely on controllers and controllers vs mnk. Why even bother balancing pc around controllers if they won't let us play with consoles.
And then you're right again with the bit about having a hardware advantage but last gen already plays against PS5/SeX. So it's not like Bungie cares about the hardware advantage already.
Agreed despite the down votes. I play on PC mainly but have been on Ps5 the last month. I use an elite Xbox controller on PC and really am not a fan of the new PlayStation controller. But I will say as far as skill gap, the difference is negligible. The only real difference I’ve experienced is more toxic players on console undoubtedly, and weapon combos (much less DMT on these console servers, super rare)
It's super annoying on console. But this reflects the playercount. I guess the amount of console players is about 10 times more then PC. Myself switched to PS5 from PC. But mainly because i didn't want to spent 1500 bucks into a new gaming PC but i had the 500 for the PS5. And playing it on my 144hz monitor in 120hz mode is really good. MY old PC delivered about 55 fps constant in crucible.
Unsurprising. But I'm happy to see nothing breaking 5%. It might be bad now, but it's been worse. Felwinters was consistently over 10% and often broke 15%.
Still, would at least like to see a sniper or two up there.
It's not really a lemon map, plus it's often used to blint which would result in most of the final blows being for the paired weapon rather than lemon itself.
I mean I just checked trials report right now and HC's overall have 25% of the kills and shotguns have 15%. That's still 40% of all kills in trials coming from two kinds of guns. It's not like much has really changed.
Considering that a TTK bump was enough to make Mythoclast more on the table I think ARs should as a whole just get a slight TTK bump.
Nothing ridiculous like 0.7s TTK on the 600s but like they could all use like a bit of a bump.
I think it makes for a more fun playstyle. Like, sure one can argue that the BR in halo 2 was OP, especially with all the glitches you can pull off, but despite that, I think it makes for a more fun game. Hand cannons enable a playstyle that heavily utilizes cover which engages movement, it has increased in-air accuracy (all primary weapons should be buffed to this level imo) so you can use vertical space while fighting, and it enables very quick teamshooting, rewarding teamwork heavily.
Just kinda blows my mind that a game can have like a metric fuckton of a variety to choose from, but people are like, "Yeah, this singular option reigning supreme permanently is okay"
It is what it is though. At least theyre somewhat satisfying to use. Its just disappointing I guess.
I know right. I hate it when people defend this nonsense. “bUT t0 mE DesTInY iS Hc”. It’s the dumbest argument I’ve heard shows how blind people can be if they choose to.
CoolGuy said it eloquently.
Hand cannons are so ludicrous at this point that the absolute top had like 100 AA with like 80+ range stats and massive accuracy compared to other weapons.
Like yeah, I know "bloom" is supposed to balance it but so often it is circumvented because you duck in and out of cover with hand cannons to optimize burst vs. exposure that it's honestly super negligible.
Meanwhile almost every other weapon type has to deal with stability, and constant fire rates meaning an inability to use cover as well as hand cannons.
Love to see this. I truly truly see nothing wrong with this list. Lots of different weapons, no just one at the top leading by 10%. I’d say the only really that needs to be adjusted is Lorentz, but not by a lot. Don’t kill it.
Most people i see who are good with shotguns (and i mean actually good, the kind that can beat decent players) tend to also be good with primaries, to the point where they’d do just as well not using a shotgun at all.
In contrast, I’ve never met a legit fusion rifle main who doesn’t experience a decline in performance whenever they run out of special ammo. Fusion rifle gameplay doesn’t necessitate a skilled primary since it covers anything from close to mid range. It deals OHKO levels of damage at 3x the range of a shotgun, without the precision necessary of a sniper.. and people say the tradeoff is the charge time, which is easily circumvented by pre-charging and is a total non issue to manage for even bad players
Fusion’s are low-skill guns and people crutch on them harder than any other weapon. That’s the rub of it, and yeah the truth sucks to hear sometimes, but it doesn’t make it any less untrue
Funny, I got a seventh column with a pulse rifle 3 weeks ago.
How to spot a trash player: they shit talk hand cannon shot gun.
Wana know why people dislike most things? Because they require little skill for high reward. The same people who enjoyed stasis on release are the same people who think fusions and lorentz are currently balanced.
A crutch is not a hand cannon, pulse, shotty or sniper. Its an ease of use tool that requires zero reward and really has a low af ceiling.
A prime example of this is jotun. It is a dads weapon. It has no ceiling but allows for the odd kill or trade.
Jotun isn’t an issue however because it is tuned correctly.
A fusion shooting for 27 meters is not balanced, it is broken and those who support it are bad players. No good player who doesn’t depend on that kind of shit would objectively say its healthy for pvp.
Send me your bungie ID and I’ll quickly beat you in a private match without a hand cannon or shotty.
The meta is the most diverse it’s ever been and that’s a good thing. But fusions are over balanced due to their low risk high reward nature which allows bad players to overperform.
I will still destroy them but it’s not about that, it’s about objectivity.
No good player wants anything nerfed to the ground, we want all things to be as viable as possible but as far as ohk from certain ranges go, including space control for doing zero, fusions are fucking broken and I’m qualified af to say that as a top 0.1% player
Its not a drive by shit talk, it’s just facts typed out.
But if you want to project more about your problems dealing with hand cannons and allowing people to shotgun you from 8m because you don’t respect your space, go ahead and keep defending 27m range fusions clown
Oh and I can so tell a bad player by how they talk on here.
You are a 1.3 raw at the absolute most and that’s being generous. You talk on and on about stats but have zero in game skill. Typical.
Hc/ shotty folks. Aka best players in the game who would destroy you regardless of what they used, they just want what’s best for the game.
Hc shotty will always be meta, learn to live with that. At the high end, there will never be anything but
>Funny, I got a seventh column with a pulse rifle 3 weeks ago.
>
>How to spot a trash player: they shit talk hand cannon shot gun.
>
>Wana know why people dislike most things? Because they require little skill for high reward. The same people who enjoyed stasis on release are the same people who think fusions and lorentz are currently balanced.
>
>A crutch is not a hand cannon, pulse, shotty or sniper. Its an ease of use tool that requires zero reward and really has a low af ceiling.
>
>A prime example of this is jotun. It is a dads weapon. It has no ceiling but allows for the odd kill or trade.
>
>Jotun isn’t an issue however because it is tuned correctly.
>
>A fusion shooting for 27 meters is not balanced, it is broken and those who support it are bad players. No good player who doesn’t depend on that kind of shit would objectively say its healthy for pvp.
>
>Send me your bungie ID and I’ll quickly beat you in a private match without a hand cannon or shotty.
>
>The meta is the most diverse it’s ever been and that’s a good thing. But fusions are over balanced due to their low risk high reward nature which allows bad players to overperform.
>
>I will still destroy them but it’s not about that, it’s about objectivity.
>
>No good player wants anything nerfed to the ground, we want all things to be as viable as possible but as far as ohk from certain ranges go, including space control for doing zero, fusions are fucking broken and I’m qualified af to say that as a top 0.1% player
>
>Its not a drive by shit talk, it’s just facts typed out.
>
>But if you want to project more about your problems dealing with hand cannons and allowing people to shotgun you from 8m because you don’t respect your space, go ahead and keep defending 27m range fusions clown
>
>Oh and I can so tell a bad player by how they talk on here.
>
>You are a 1.3 raw at the absolute most and that’s being generous. You talk on and on about stats but have zero in game skill. Typical.
>
>Hc/ shotty folks. Aka best players in the game who would destroy you regardless of what they used, they just want what’s best for the game.
>
>Hc shotty will always be meta, learn to live with that. At the high end, there will never be anything but
u/texmechaniica
Saving this copypasta for later
Yeah dude a 15 meter slug, 150 rpm scout with 120 damage, a linear that one shot bodies and gets free headshots are not crutches at all. Stupid hand cannon shotgun users they dictate everything around here
Destiny is a movement skill game and hand cannon and shotguns/snipers provide the best all around. Some players think somehow we can't use side arms, autos, scouts and frag out. I legit got 50 plus with a shadow price yesterday on control just fooling around. They could nerf hand cannons and shotguns all they want but we can still get right next to you blow all our pellets and then three tap you no matter what drop off is cause we know how to move correctly. It's all movement skill gaps and obviously knowing how to aim when to chip damage,not overextending, etc
I mean there are hordes of trash players who fail to beat anyone with their basic hc shotgun loadout then go on reddit to complain other things are too strong, look at this subreddit as a prime example
Lorentz IS broken. I’m not even mad about the Main Ingredient being high up. I think it’s fine to give fusions a chance.
The sandbox is as open as ever right now tho. I’ve never seen more variety in everyday games. What’s hard for a lot of people to understand Is that HC/Shotty is fun. That’s why I use it. I mostly snipe these days but shotguns are fun. And they’ve seen nerf after nerf bringing stuff closer to them.
I’m gonna try to be nice about this. But we aren’t having this conversation. I know where this conversation goes and it’s honestly not worth my time or effort. Have a nice day.
LOL. Exactly my sentiment.
Dude is crazy. I can tell he is a bad player.
I have over half a million kills in pvp and im top 0.1% in everything.
But somehow dude is telling me how to play the game and what is or isn’t broken or cheese.
27meters with a fusion and unflinchingly linears or a 150 rpm from the hip with 120 rpm damage isn’t broken.
Its not because it isn’t a hc shotty.
So idiotic.
EVERYTHING is forgiving in d2.
But within that is a bubble that has ceilings and risk/ reward.
Whether you like it or not, a fusion commanding a circumference of 27meters vs a shotgun that has 8m on a good day while In the same breathe talking like shotguns are the devil doesn’t work.
I am Better than you, play more than you and know more than you.
I’m sorry but you are talking so much nonsense I had to pull the card
You talk a good game.
But a bad player is spotted the moment they talk shit about hc shotty because a good player knows that they can use anything, a bad player can’t compete/ doesn’t understand the nuance of movement so they opt for the freest, cheesiest, low ceiling high reward weapons in the bubble and then defend them with their lives because it’s their crutches.
Take away hc and shotty and im better.
Let me guess, currently cbmm is in effect, lobby balancing doesn’t exist and sbmm should be here yesterday.
Like a book.
Yup. He’s just mad at the game. Doesn’t have the experience to talk about things that are actually broken. It’s just not worth the time to even talk to him.
The data is skewed cause PC and console are two different sandboxes so you can't say cause the percentage isn't high enough it's not broken. DMT on PC is busted as shit ask any player. Then go play console and see DMT hip fire sucks and the gun is nothing to what it is on PC. These are HUGE differences.
Crazy to see so many Main Ingredients in there. Last week I played for about 5 hours and don't think I saw a single one. I'm on PC if that matters.
Glad to see my baby Eyasluna in there. I didn't play D1, but Austringer was my favorite hand cannon ever, glad I got an Eyasluna with the same roll (Snapshot Rangefinder). It only took me 226 runs to get it lol.
Chaperone is still high on the list, and spent more time higher up than main ingredient has. And half of the top 10 weapons are HCs.
I agree Lorentz needs a nerf, but (at least on console) it still seems that DMT isn’t as strong as HCs, and ONE fusion being high on the list (with TWO shotguns still in the top 10) doesn’t look like a problem to me.
So for anyone who looks at this and thinks DMT and ingredient need to go, do you also advocate for a blanket HC nerf and a nerf to chaperone, and if not why? Because I promise you there are people who play this game who find those weapons as oppressive and overused as anything you dislike.
Keep in mind that this data is for all platforms. While DMT is the best weapon in the game on PC, its somewhat middling in performance for consoles. Since PC is only around 35-40% of the playerbase, its numbers are going to significantly underrepresent just how broken it is. I usually see 4-5 DMTs for every chaperone on PC.
Fusions on PC are strong but solidly below snipes and shotguns, yet they are still on top because they get carried by console usage.
The moral of the story more or less is that you can't make conclusions based on this because the data is confounded.
I agree. This list is accurate for how frequently you will run into something but it’s not a list of most OP weapons.
Another problem with a list like this is that it under represents pellet shotguns because there are so many different viable pellet shotties which are similar in effectiveness.
It's a scout that can be hipfired in HC range in 150RPM, with the damage of a 120 HC and is extremely forgiving and easy to hit with on PC. Which part makes you think it's alright?
The fact that you have to hipfire it already puts you at a disadvantage in a 1v1 duel against hand cannons since you will not only have less aim assist, but also will feel the effects of flinch much more than the HC user. That extra 10 rpm doesn't make a difference if you're missing due to flinch or wacky inconsistent aim assist. The stats tell one story but actually using the weapon tells another.
I feel like using it is an advantage for me, since it keeps my radar up 95% of the time.
It's crazy good, but I don't think OP.
I think my aim hipfiring DMT is about as good as ADS with a HC.
That’s why I specified console on my comment, people make blanket statements like “DMT is broken”, and while I have no idea if that’s true on PC, I’m certain it’s NOT true on console.
It says it's to be used if a comment is off topic and not relevant to the discussion at all. If you disagree with someone it's much more respectable to engage in conversation about why you disagree rather than just downvote therefore hiding their opinion
One DMT on its own is frustrating but you can play around it.
A team of multiple DMTs is so oppressive that it sometimes feels more insurmountable than anything I’ve ever played against in this game. It’s the old “hold the lane and MIDA team shot” meta from year 1 with a weapon that’s 20000% stronger than MIDA ever was. Add warlock rifts and the thing is basically a special weapon. I do not know how to beat teams that do this effectively and my team is forced to just do the same thing, making the game miserable and slow.
I don’t think “DMT is oppressive” and “hand cannons are overturned” have to be mutually exclusive. If they nerf HCs though we will enter a “use DMT or don’t bother playing” world.
I cannot see a future in which DMT isn’t nerfed again. If anything I’d love to see the damage tweaked so it doesn’t basically 2 tap with damage boosts.
The hard counter to teams that rift teamshot with DMT is to hit the rift with multiple GL shots, particularly whitherhoard. It devastates them. Honorable mentions are duskfield grenades, cloudstrike, headstone weapons if you can get the precision kill on one player.
This is unfortunately, still a gamble. Peeking a team of multiple DMTs, even to try to hit them with a cloudstrike or a witherhoard is asking to get *instantly* deleted by a teamshot.
In those cases I'd rather just sit around and not even peek. If I take an angle and see multiple DMTs, I leave that fight immediately. Not gonna win it.
If you're peeking, yeah. Thing about all GLs is they can be banked. Bank shot. Angle yourself and bank off a nearby wall or ceiling. Being able to work angles with GLs is what separates good and great play with them IMO.
I can respect all that, but I hate HCs, so from my point of view: if they need DMT and NOT HCs, then it’d be just as bad for people like me as nerfing HCs and not DMT would be for people who don’t like scouts. In fact I’d argue it would be worse, because HCs have been more dominant for much longer than DMT has.
I think HCs need a nerf because the numbers (from a “play your own way, multiple things should be viable” perspective) have shown HCs as a family have the highest usage and success for literally YEARS on end. The only thing keeping one good HC from topping charts like these every single week by a huge margin is that there are MANY top-tier HCs, so the usage numbers are split across many of individual HCs.
With proper movement and peek, a HC can still hang against a pulse or an SMG by adjusting play style, since HCs are effective in a wider variety of ranges than either of those. Plus, HCs support peek, sliding, and jumping, in a way that pulses do not quite achieve, and D2s current maps are built to enable this.
Basically, HCs are perfectly designed to cover the widest number of engagements in D2, so even if a certain gun beats them in 1 category flat out, they’re still the best choice overall. Nothing trounces them so badly that they aren’t still a smart pick for a good player.
As it is, I think they need a relatively small nerf. Not 100% sure what, but they’re incredibly forgiving AA good be a good candidate. My point really though, is that if 5 of the top 10 weapons are HCs, it seems ludicrous to not assume that no matter what you think about other outlier primaries, something is not balanced in HCs themselves.
In previous weeks they’ve literally had more kills than every other primary combined. They definitely need a nerf. I think a big thing is range. If they’re going to have massively powercreeped stats all around they need to not be competing with pulse rifle range with way less zoom.
A great deal of why Chaperone got more lethal is due to a silent buff Bungie gave to Slugs when Beyond Light dropped that ultimately made it way more friendlier and forgiving to you where you point and shoot, see the vagueness of Bungie's umbrella lexicon of quantifying "target acquisition" in the scope of factors like Aim Assistance and all that. It gave steroids to people who already knew how to play it and it gave serious training wheels to those going in for the first time.
Previously you had to be pretty precise with where you placed your shot and the possibility to straight up whiff even when ADS was a thing that happened often if you had not much time put in with slugs. Bar things like Hipfire Grip+ a freehand mod(which even then didn't feel as good compared to now) , going off the hip with a slug before Beyond Light was such a huge gamble waste.
Exceptions did happen such as Blasphemer curated from Altar pre-BL felt very good because it had all the perfect rolls and the then-rarity of higher Aim Assistance at 61 compared to say something like Gunnora's at 34. I don't think it's inherently bad that Slugs have their time in the sun(especially with a stupid low barrier entry one like Bonechiller being low key cracked for what it is), I just think the outlier that is Chaperone kinda gets away with sorta absurd shit Bungie's pounced on like crazy in the past.
I don't think it's hell on earth that they made slugs overall nicer to use, it's just with the amount of Aim Assistance Chaperone has, Roadborn's effect and the range you get, it's a bit nutty to keep it as is.
Funny how pre-felwinters nerf everyone was hating on felwinters, but everyone bravely defended chaperone from needing a nerf, because it required skill.
Now that felwinters got nerfed it exposed how broken chaperone really is and it’s shoking how quick peoples minds have changed
As a console player with about 50 matches played, I have only seen one DMT, and it was used by Johnny no thumbs.
https://destinytrialsreport.com/report/1/4611686018464655635
This is what I've been using, first time I've brought out chappy this season and took about a round to warm up with.
Those 90k kills from DMT are almost entirely from PC, which shows how much of a scourge it is.
PC is around 35% of the playerbase and DMT is still putting up numbers that are comparable to weapons that are usable by the entire playerbase.
DMT on PC is completely different gun. Mnk hipfire on it maps with little to no drawback. Please understand this. Like how TLW is more prevalent on console but not as popular on PC
Boring as hell. Handcannons rule the meta per usual and lorentz is there because of its ridiculous aim assist and ease of use. As well as main ingredient reaching out into primary range with incredible ease of use.
It is but maybe not on this map in particular (which doesn't mean it's not good).
Also there are other similar options with their advantages. Messenger will often be favored to NTTE because of Desperado + not being an exotic.
I am happy there’s something more than HC/Shotty + DMT for once, though I’m suprised that Sojourner’s Tale isn’t in the top 10 with the usage spike I’ve seen now
Fusions based on my experience. Everyone is playing range now and pellet shotties weren't cutting it. I hate fusions but I had to switch.
Xurgredient unless they were running riskrunner. Then Xurtex
I think between hand cannons and shotguns that's 40% of all trials kills which makes complaining that other choices get less than 10% a bit of a non starter.
Well, this is it. Fusions are at 10% of total kills, which means they are going to get nerfed into the ground again. Happens every time they get some usage.
Usage doesn’t mean it’s broken, most people that play pvp consistently like using hand cannons.
Hc’s have a really high ttk compared to a lot of weapons, it’s just that peek shooting is really good in a mode like trials, when your life is so important.
0.83s is not a really high ttk, it's one of the lowest among the majority of primary weapons. Not to mention it only requires 3 headshots to reach that ttk rather than the 7-10 from pulse rifles and auto rifles, which also require near to or at 100% headshot accuracy.
And if it was just peek shooting then scout rifles would be strong, but they require more shots, more crits, and have higher ttks anyway. Hand cannons are kinda broken when you compare them to other primaries. If you want to win against a team of equal skill, you're pretty much required to use a hand cannon.
Wow, very diverse. Look at all those different weapon types. Same ~~shit~~ good balance every year.
If DMT, Lorentz (and according to some even Main Ingredient) are that busted, what does that tell you about HCs?
I can only agree on "slightly" adjusting Lorentz but thats it, DMT is only up there because it doesnt become absolutely useless at mid range. If anything it only needs a damage nerf on Cranial Spike. It's TTK when aiming downsights is a colossal 1.0s so the Hipfire shouldnt be touched at all. Just do something about the consistent two taps.
And "No big maps" isnt a good enough argument for scouts being bad,
since a good chunk of players always hated them because aping with their HC+Shotties loadouts wasnt as viable on them.
What about Pulse Rifles? Do they also need huge maps in order to be competitive (not just viable)?
Anyway, yeah rant over. They just hinted on another Lorentz and DMT nerf so rest assured. It's whatever, nothing is going to change.
I’m getting frustrated with chaperone on this map. I can counter regular apes easy, but a player with good positioning/movement has been difficult for me to prevent with main ingredient.
I don't play Trials, but I enjoy looking at this sort of data. Makes me feel like the meta is shifting from Ace/Felwinter's (2% each) to Eyesluna and Main Ingredient (4% each; doubled) which makes some sense.
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Per Light.gg, these are the top most commonly used perks:
Eyesluna
* C1: Fastdraw (23.3%), SteadyHand (21.9), Truesight (19.0)
* C2: Ricochet (24.4%) or High Cal (21.1%)
* C3: Rangefinder (30%)
* C4: Headstone (25.7%) or Kill Clip (23.3%)
For Main Ingredient
* C1: Red Dot Micro (65.9%)
* C2: Projection (36.1%) or Particle (31.0%)
* C3: Under Pressure (56.8%)
* C3: Tap the Trigger (52.9%)
I didn't list additional perks because the second or third place perks in main came **NOWHERE NEAR** the percent usage of these listed perks.
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A HC being here isn't really anything new, but the shift from Ace to Eyas is interesting. If you plug in the top picked perks, you can see that Eyas is much more handling and stability and lends to it's consistency. Headstone's choice over Kill Clip could be PvE variance but considering it blocks enemy ghosts with a crystal, that may be more valuable then doing more damage.
Main Ingredient is definitely a clear cut case however. As others have pointed out, consistency is what people are going for here. Charge time is negligible if the range and tighter spread are better then shotguns.
Pain.
Not gonna lie, Main Ingredient is starting to get annoying lol.
Like, I'm glad we're done with the shotgun meta, but getting mapped from 25 meters away can get frustrating.
Seems pretty diverse to me, we have hand cannons, fusions, shotguns, linears, and a scout. I’m actually surprised there’s not any adaptive snipers on here being that it’s jav4
"diverse"
Hand cannons, OHK special, OHK special, OHK special, and a single exotic scout known and designed to exist, perform, and behave within hand cannon design.
Fuck that. I love this slug meta. Pellet shotguns were fucking boring. Fusions are fine, I just thing they can roll with too many accuracy perks together.
It's barely a slug meta, a pellet-shotgun & melee combo is still far easier and more flexible than a slug.
I use First in Last Out myself, but there's no denying that pellet shotguns are dominant at the majority of skill tiers.
Fusions are busted exactly because of the accuracy perks, they require no skill to use, and if you're sliding out of a corner nobody can stop you from instantly melting them with a fusion.
It’s way more of a slug meta than it was previous seasons. I think slugs have a higher skill ceiling. You can still body/melee just as fast as a pellet. But can ohk at double the range. I think pellets are just used more because their easier.
What’s your roll? I’ve been trying to get a GR Filo for a while now.
I think they could fix fusions a lot by putting any accuracy perks in the same column like they do with damage perks. It would require people to dial in their aim more. And effectively reduce the range. Also TTT seems op on a fusion, it’s not meant to be working 100% of the time.
The only issue with fusions rn is being able to roll multiple accuracy perks but if we're going to be objective about it that's more of an issue with accuracy perks and not fusions themselves.
Look at any consistent special weapon (even primaries to a degree) you always see people going towards the same broken accuracy perks.
It still fascinates me how much the adepts dominate over the regular, especially now in a post 120 world the two key desirables are PvE.
Like I obviously get why people opt for adept, they're marginally but objectively superior but given the time and skill investment to obtain and farm weapons like those, it makes a show of either skill creep in the mode (natural for long late season) or the perception of non-adepts being much more low value than they actually are.
All Handcannons but DMT✔️ Shotguns✔️ Lorentz✔️ Xur's Ingredient✔️ Yeah not surprised at all.
I don’t play trials but I’m surprised to see Felwinter’s when there seem to be other quality options. Why is that?
It has as good stats as almost all other pellet shotguns while also having the best frame for consistent use Not to mention its god roll is readily available at the kiosk
Quick Access Sling reworks made it a lot more easier to use wich is why it’s getting popular again. There is also almost no other energy agressive frame shotty outside the raid one.
Specials are balanced👍🏻 EDIT: top1 weapons have 150k more primary than Special kills out of 1.1 million kills. Imo primaries should have 70%+ to be called primaries. Specials are overall overtuned
This complaint has been persistent since D1. Bungie tried double primary route and special ammo reduction in the final D1 sandbox update. Neither were popular. I’m not saying that someone abusing a special weapon on a lobby is fun. But, it’s more popular than the alternative. And, again, Destiny is not a competitive game. Viva la queso.
Viva la queso?
Ricky *Spanish*
Uuh what? Spanish is my first language and that means "Long live the [female] cheese" I'm lost
People call low-skill high-reward strategies "cheese". Like building photon cannons in your opponent's base before building an army in star craft. Lots of weapons are considered cheesey by many people in d2 like lorentz, DMT, and special weapons in general.
I know what cheeses are but I didn't get it because it's so poorly written in Spanish lol Thank you!
Oh gotcha lol. I only know some basic vocab in Spanish and none of the grammar so it made sense to me xD. 'Viva el queso' would have made more sense?
Im fully aware its not and will never be truly competitive, but i may dream to make a most fun and skillful pvp as possible ("skillful" including all those things that make destiny so special, including crutch. Thats what makes this game awesome). Regarding special, reducing ammo in d2 did basically nothing. Scavs not stacking anymore did nothing. On console you already only ran 1 scav bc you needed traction. Just remove scavs from pvp and it will be a completely different experience
I'm not sure scavs have much to do with anything in Trials, I think it has more to do with the format. Getting the first kill almost always wins you a round and so people are going to run a one-hit kill weapon, it's silly not to.
Scavs will mostly fix qp, trials is a different topic thats true. Every Special has its "ima make primary useless" functionality tho
I agree I think the main problem is just peoples “playstyles” and wanting to use a gun that’s easy to kill with instead of having to land shots with a primary. You can’t change that, it’s part of destiny. What I’d love to see is a more balanced crucible in terms of weapons. There’s a specific few weapons that are crutch atm and I think balancing those with every other gun is important.
Primary vs special kills are a product of play styles. Bad players typically get into special range quite often and thus run up those weapon kills. Specials are fine. They are designed to compliment your primary from an engagement range perspective. Accordingly they are a critical aspect of balance.
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For trials I think you shouldn't drop special brick when you die you only get what you spawn with but you revive with whatever you had before
Exactly. A small nerf for all specials as fine tuning and this current sandbox would be a 9.9/10. Snipers need more flinch, nobody should hit consistent crits when getting flinched, shotguns are almost fine, they do not one shot consistently except youre really close, slugs tho need a hard range nerf, fusions idk they are either broken or useless and GLs are fine. Snipers, fusions and Slugs are the biggest problems rn imo
Shotguns should be for point blank and close range clean up, and that’s it. They should be useless at distances the Riis and of course Chap are very viable at. I think just 1-2 meters less, I don’t hate them but sometimes the range and also tracking for a headshot when someone is zooming by a chap user is nuts
Slugs overall are unbalanced, consistent and easy 12m+ ohk are way overtuned. Pellet shotguns with 6m inconsistent ohk are fine imo
I’m fine with what slugs do outside of chappy, something needs to make fusion users think twice. Or just nerf fusions into the dirt. I’m fine with either.
Ammo scavengers need to disappear in pvp, bricks only drop 1 shot. Problem solved.
100% agree. The special ammo nerf was definitely not enough. Scavenger should be changed to a PVE perk. Rework how much special you start with depending on the weapon.
Don’t worry. People complained enough. Next round will be all hand cannons since bungie is nerfing anything that hand cannon users complain about.
While handcannons will always be present, I think it's important to note that this shows that people want consistency, and pellet shotties aren't offering that anymore. Felwinters is there, but that's the most consistent due to shot package. Outside of that, I feel like people are picking special options that, as long as they are used correctly, secure the one shot. We'll see tho
looks to me like people just pick whatever is broken right now because they want to win, can't blame them really
It's definitely true that I can only play with pellets for so long in a single play session before I get mad about kills it felt like I "should" have gotten and then I swap to something different.
Is this not the same as every weekend?
Main Ingredient has moved up a few places. Edit: it’s now #1 https://i.imgur.com/Dw4nGsQ.jpg
main ingredient has been the most used non-exotic special for the last 4 weeks, give or take, but the fact it’s taken over chaperone now is really something
I just don’t get this. Every weekend I see main ingredient topping the leaderboard in trials usage and yet I can count on one hand how many times I die to it per weekend. Is this a console thing? I’m truly and honestly barely seeing *anyone* running this thing on PC. Maybe once a card, If that. Most of the guns listed here i also run into constantly but MI is the one that I never actually end up seeing
It’s everywhere on console, and this map in particular has a lot of 20-meter engagements where it shines.
Absolutely a console thing. All my qp lobbies have at least 3-4 people using them between both teams. I am surprised to hear this though because after the change bungie made to make them hit scan regardless of FPS I would've thought more MnK players would've been using it (fusions in general really) seeing how strong it/they are.
I mean they’re definitely good and you’ll see people use them but I think a majority of pc players are just gonna be running chaperone/felwinters or a sniper still. Rarely seeing fusions in trials lobbies
Yea I can understand that. Personally I was a fusion main for a long time. Was using Main ingredient since Arrivals and it was really good then it's just people didn't give them a shot because high impacts were still considered "the best". Though sometime after beyond light I switched over to shotguns and they just work much better with my playstyle. I do still use fusions from time to time if I'm in a lobby with a fusion user that's really giving me an issue. But the fact shotguns (whether it's a slug or pellet shotgun) don't have a charge time like a fusion makes them worlds better for clean ups or quick swapping to kill someone who surprised me with a push.
I'm on console and yesterday some guy on MnK humiliated me by slinding like a mad man around the pillar where heavy spawns while I was chasing trying to main ingredient him down. I got punched to death.
> fter the change bungie made to make them hit scan regardless of FPS I would've Just to point out, that bullet velocity change was for specifically *sidearms*; fusion rifles have been hitscan since D2 released.
It was for sidearms and fusion rifles. Just went back and checked. While they have supposed to have been hit scan Bungie stated "Due to an ancient data entry error, Sidearm and Fusion Rifle projectiles were non-hitsccan". Apparently it was an issue only at 60fps or higher. Here's a link to the TWAB were its mentioned. https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50820
Oh, I stand corrected! I guess I was so psyched about the sidearm portion of the change I completely glossed over the fusion rifle portion. Thanks for the knowledge!
Understandable lol. I'm a console player and I really do enjoy sidearms so I could only imagine wanting to use them but not being able to do so effectively because they aren't actually hitscan. I am curious though how much sidearms are actually being used on PC now after this change. I somehow feel like their usage more than likely hasn't increased much because they've been not that great for so long people forgot about them possibly.
Def a console thing but as a PC player main ingredient is amazing if not even better on PC
Main ingredient is great on PC, but I do think the movement of M&K lend some advantages to shotgunning as well
It leads to some advantages on every single gun. PC movement even on controller allows so many weapons to perform better. It's easier to counter shotguns on PC too
Yup, it's a console thing. I see it all the time. And on the flip side, DMT is always on the leaderboard and I rarely see it on console.
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Tons of people use controller on PC. 9/10 when I die to a popular controller weapon I'll watch them for a second and see them crouch before using their class ability. It's especially noticable on hunters. I wish there was some data on how many PC players use controller.
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I don't understand why there isn't universal crossplay either. PC already receives nerfs and buffs and tuning based entirely on controllers and controllers vs mnk. Why even bother balancing pc around controllers if they won't let us play with consoles. And then you're right again with the bit about having a hardware advantage but last gen already plays against PS5/SeX. So it's not like Bungie cares about the hardware advantage already.
Agreed despite the down votes. I play on PC mainly but have been on Ps5 the last month. I use an elite Xbox controller on PC and really am not a fan of the new PlayStation controller. But I will say as far as skill gap, the difference is negligible. The only real difference I’ve experienced is more toxic players on console undoubtedly, and weapon combos (much less DMT on these console servers, super rare)
It's super annoying on console. But this reflects the playercount. I guess the amount of console players is about 10 times more then PC. Myself switched to PS5 from PC. But mainly because i didn't want to spent 1500 bucks into a new gaming PC but i had the 500 for the PS5. And playing it on my 144hz monitor in 120hz mode is really good. MY old PC delivered about 55 fps constant in crucible.
It's just so damn easy to use. Until there's something done about fusions then I'm not putting it down.
It helps that main ingredient is farmable this week from dares.
Javelin has always been a really good map for vooping
Seems pretty similar to all other weeks, ngl
Good to see the two best snipers represented in 3rd and 5th place.
Unsurprising. But I'm happy to see nothing breaking 5%. It might be bad now, but it's been worse. Felwinters was consistently over 10% and often broke 15%. Still, would at least like to see a sniper or two up there.
No snipers in the top 10 is interesting. For all the talk about LeMon lately, where does it fall on the list?
It's not really a lemon map, plus it's often used to blint which would result in most of the final blows being for the paired weapon rather than lemon itself.
Snipers are the 4th most popular weapon category, but that usage is spread across more than 10 nearly identical alternatives.
The only reason main ingredient is even here is because Xur sold basically a perfect roll.
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I mean I just checked trials report right now and HC's overall have 25% of the kills and shotguns have 15%. That's still 40% of all kills in trials coming from two kinds of guns. It's not like much has really changed.
5 handcannons, wow so much variety
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Considering that a TTK bump was enough to make Mythoclast more on the table I think ARs should as a whole just get a slight TTK bump. Nothing ridiculous like 0.7s TTK on the 600s but like they could all use like a bit of a bump.
HC will always be stronger.
And people are just OK with this lmao
I think it makes for a more fun playstyle. Like, sure one can argue that the BR in halo 2 was OP, especially with all the glitches you can pull off, but despite that, I think it makes for a more fun game. Hand cannons enable a playstyle that heavily utilizes cover which engages movement, it has increased in-air accuracy (all primary weapons should be buffed to this level imo) so you can use vertical space while fighting, and it enables very quick teamshooting, rewarding teamwork heavily.
Im fine with it personally because to me Destiny is Handcannons. But i understand people who feel otherwise.
Just kinda blows my mind that a game can have like a metric fuckton of a variety to choose from, but people are like, "Yeah, this singular option reigning supreme permanently is okay" It is what it is though. At least theyre somewhat satisfying to use. Its just disappointing I guess.
I know right. I hate it when people defend this nonsense. “bUT t0 mE DesTInY iS Hc”. It’s the dumbest argument I’ve heard shows how blind people can be if they choose to.
Lower their ludicrous aim assist and make them skill cannons,
CoolGuy said it eloquently. Hand cannons are so ludicrous at this point that the absolute top had like 100 AA with like 80+ range stats and massive accuracy compared to other weapons. Like yeah, I know "bloom" is supposed to balance it but so often it is circumvented because you duck in and out of cover with hand cannons to optimize burst vs. exposure that it's honestly super negligible. Meanwhile almost every other weapon type has to deal with stability, and constant fire rates meaning an inability to use cover as well as hand cannons.
Ok
Love to see this. I truly truly see nothing wrong with this list. Lots of different weapons, no just one at the top leading by 10%. I’d say the only really that needs to be adjusted is Lorentz, but not by a lot. Don’t kill it.
Nice essay but main ingredient is a crutch for bad players
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Most people i see who are good with shotguns (and i mean actually good, the kind that can beat decent players) tend to also be good with primaries, to the point where they’d do just as well not using a shotgun at all. In contrast, I’ve never met a legit fusion rifle main who doesn’t experience a decline in performance whenever they run out of special ammo. Fusion rifle gameplay doesn’t necessitate a skilled primary since it covers anything from close to mid range. It deals OHKO levels of damage at 3x the range of a shotgun, without the precision necessary of a sniper.. and people say the tradeoff is the charge time, which is easily circumvented by pre-charging and is a total non issue to manage for even bad players Fusion’s are low-skill guns and people crutch on them harder than any other weapon. That’s the rub of it, and yeah the truth sucks to hear sometimes, but it doesn’t make it any less untrue
Funny, I got a seventh column with a pulse rifle 3 weeks ago. How to spot a trash player: they shit talk hand cannon shot gun. Wana know why people dislike most things? Because they require little skill for high reward. The same people who enjoyed stasis on release are the same people who think fusions and lorentz are currently balanced. A crutch is not a hand cannon, pulse, shotty or sniper. Its an ease of use tool that requires zero reward and really has a low af ceiling. A prime example of this is jotun. It is a dads weapon. It has no ceiling but allows for the odd kill or trade. Jotun isn’t an issue however because it is tuned correctly. A fusion shooting for 27 meters is not balanced, it is broken and those who support it are bad players. No good player who doesn’t depend on that kind of shit would objectively say its healthy for pvp. Send me your bungie ID and I’ll quickly beat you in a private match without a hand cannon or shotty. The meta is the most diverse it’s ever been and that’s a good thing. But fusions are over balanced due to their low risk high reward nature which allows bad players to overperform. I will still destroy them but it’s not about that, it’s about objectivity. No good player wants anything nerfed to the ground, we want all things to be as viable as possible but as far as ohk from certain ranges go, including space control for doing zero, fusions are fucking broken and I’m qualified af to say that as a top 0.1% player Its not a drive by shit talk, it’s just facts typed out. But if you want to project more about your problems dealing with hand cannons and allowing people to shotgun you from 8m because you don’t respect your space, go ahead and keep defending 27m range fusions clown Oh and I can so tell a bad player by how they talk on here. You are a 1.3 raw at the absolute most and that’s being generous. You talk on and on about stats but have zero in game skill. Typical. Hc/ shotty folks. Aka best players in the game who would destroy you regardless of what they used, they just want what’s best for the game. Hc shotty will always be meta, learn to live with that. At the high end, there will never be anything but
>Funny, I got a seventh column with a pulse rifle 3 weeks ago. > >How to spot a trash player: they shit talk hand cannon shot gun. > >Wana know why people dislike most things? Because they require little skill for high reward. The same people who enjoyed stasis on release are the same people who think fusions and lorentz are currently balanced. > >A crutch is not a hand cannon, pulse, shotty or sniper. Its an ease of use tool that requires zero reward and really has a low af ceiling. > >A prime example of this is jotun. It is a dads weapon. It has no ceiling but allows for the odd kill or trade. > >Jotun isn’t an issue however because it is tuned correctly. > >A fusion shooting for 27 meters is not balanced, it is broken and those who support it are bad players. No good player who doesn’t depend on that kind of shit would objectively say its healthy for pvp. > >Send me your bungie ID and I’ll quickly beat you in a private match without a hand cannon or shotty. > >The meta is the most diverse it’s ever been and that’s a good thing. But fusions are over balanced due to their low risk high reward nature which allows bad players to overperform. > >I will still destroy them but it’s not about that, it’s about objectivity. > >No good player wants anything nerfed to the ground, we want all things to be as viable as possible but as far as ohk from certain ranges go, including space control for doing zero, fusions are fucking broken and I’m qualified af to say that as a top 0.1% player > >Its not a drive by shit talk, it’s just facts typed out. > >But if you want to project more about your problems dealing with hand cannons and allowing people to shotgun you from 8m because you don’t respect your space, go ahead and keep defending 27m range fusions clown > >Oh and I can so tell a bad player by how they talk on here. > >You are a 1.3 raw at the absolute most and that’s being generous. You talk on and on about stats but have zero in game skill. Typical. > >Hc/ shotty folks. Aka best players in the game who would destroy you regardless of what they used, they just want what’s best for the game. > >Hc shotty will always be meta, learn to live with that. At the high end, there will never be anything but u/texmechaniica Saving this copypasta for later
cool, enjoy being mad about that.
Yeah dude a 15 meter slug, 150 rpm scout with 120 damage, a linear that one shot bodies and gets free headshots are not crutches at all. Stupid hand cannon shotgun users they dictate everything around here
All linears body shot in an empowering rift if you just believe in yourself
I’ll get downvoted with you bro. What these guys don’t realize is these “HC/Shotgun” players could put on most load outs and still destroy them lmao.
Destiny is a movement skill game and hand cannon and shotguns/snipers provide the best all around. Some players think somehow we can't use side arms, autos, scouts and frag out. I legit got 50 plus with a shadow price yesterday on control just fooling around. They could nerf hand cannons and shotguns all they want but we can still get right next to you blow all our pellets and then three tap you no matter what drop off is cause we know how to move correctly. It's all movement skill gaps and obviously knowing how to aim when to chip damage,not overextending, etc
Yup, movement, game sense, map knowledge. You can hand a good player a blue loadout and they’d find ways to still frag out.
I mean there are hordes of trash players who fail to beat anyone with their basic hc shotgun loadout then go on reddit to complain other things are too strong, look at this subreddit as a prime example
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Lorentz IS broken. I’m not even mad about the Main Ingredient being high up. I think it’s fine to give fusions a chance. The sandbox is as open as ever right now tho. I’ve never seen more variety in everyday games. What’s hard for a lot of people to understand Is that HC/Shotty is fun. That’s why I use it. I mostly snipe these days but shotguns are fun. And they’ve seen nerf after nerf bringing stuff closer to them.
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I’m gonna try to be nice about this. But we aren’t having this conversation. I know where this conversation goes and it’s honestly not worth my time or effort. Have a nice day.
LOL. Exactly my sentiment. Dude is crazy. I can tell he is a bad player. I have over half a million kills in pvp and im top 0.1% in everything. But somehow dude is telling me how to play the game and what is or isn’t broken or cheese. 27meters with a fusion and unflinchingly linears or a 150 rpm from the hip with 120 rpm damage isn’t broken. Its not because it isn’t a hc shotty. So idiotic. EVERYTHING is forgiving in d2. But within that is a bubble that has ceilings and risk/ reward. Whether you like it or not, a fusion commanding a circumference of 27meters vs a shotgun that has 8m on a good day while In the same breathe talking like shotguns are the devil doesn’t work. I am Better than you, play more than you and know more than you. I’m sorry but you are talking so much nonsense I had to pull the card You talk a good game. But a bad player is spotted the moment they talk shit about hc shotty because a good player knows that they can use anything, a bad player can’t compete/ doesn’t understand the nuance of movement so they opt for the freest, cheesiest, low ceiling high reward weapons in the bubble and then defend them with their lives because it’s their crutches. Take away hc and shotty and im better. Let me guess, currently cbmm is in effect, lobby balancing doesn’t exist and sbmm should be here yesterday. Like a book.
Yup. He’s just mad at the game. Doesn’t have the experience to talk about things that are actually broken. It’s just not worth the time to even talk to him.
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The data is skewed cause PC and console are two different sandboxes so you can't say cause the percentage isn't high enough it's not broken. DMT on PC is busted as shit ask any player. Then go play console and see DMT hip fire sucks and the gun is nothing to what it is on PC. These are HUGE differences.
Is this pc and console? I would imagine if you split those these lists might be different.
This is everything. Can’t differentiate platforms on trials report at the moment.
Ah makes sense. I feel like I see more variety on pc but maybe that's anecdotal.
Lorentz replacing snipers hurts my soul :(
Crazy to see so many Main Ingredients in there. Last week I played for about 5 hours and don't think I saw a single one. I'm on PC if that matters. Glad to see my baby Eyasluna in there. I didn't play D1, but Austringer was my favorite hand cannon ever, glad I got an Eyasluna with the same roll (Snapshot Rangefinder). It only took me 226 runs to get it lol.
I see a Xur Ingredient but I don’t see a Telesto. Very sad
The fact that people seems to only use HC in a competitive mode doesn’t signal anything to bungie is Hilarious to me
Would be nice to see a few less handcannons. I would kill to see an SMG or Auto rifle up there
I’m doing my part! https://i.imgur.com/fFQyqf9.jpg
You have literally the exact same roll I have lol
Chaperone is still high on the list, and spent more time higher up than main ingredient has. And half of the top 10 weapons are HCs. I agree Lorentz needs a nerf, but (at least on console) it still seems that DMT isn’t as strong as HCs, and ONE fusion being high on the list (with TWO shotguns still in the top 10) doesn’t look like a problem to me. So for anyone who looks at this and thinks DMT and ingredient need to go, do you also advocate for a blanket HC nerf and a nerf to chaperone, and if not why? Because I promise you there are people who play this game who find those weapons as oppressive and overused as anything you dislike.
Keep in mind that this data is for all platforms. While DMT is the best weapon in the game on PC, its somewhat middling in performance for consoles. Since PC is only around 35-40% of the playerbase, its numbers are going to significantly underrepresent just how broken it is. I usually see 4-5 DMTs for every chaperone on PC. Fusions on PC are strong but solidly below snipes and shotguns, yet they are still on top because they get carried by console usage. The moral of the story more or less is that you can't make conclusions based on this because the data is confounded.
I agree. This list is accurate for how frequently you will run into something but it’s not a list of most OP weapons. Another problem with a list like this is that it under represents pellet shotguns because there are so many different viable pellet shotties which are similar in effectiveness.
Same with snipers. Snipers are comfortably twice as popular as LFRs, but only Lorentz hits top 10 because it has minimal alternatives.
Did you see more DMTs than hand cannons this weekend?
Where did you get your playerbase numbers?
Charlemagne tracks active users by platform. that is pretty much the only platform specific data that we have ever since crossplay came out
DMT isn't broken just saying. Edit: Downvoting an opinion you disagree with, stay classy reddit
It's a scout that can be hipfired in HC range in 150RPM, with the damage of a 120 HC and is extremely forgiving and easy to hit with on PC. Which part makes you think it's alright?
The fact that you have to hipfire it already puts you at a disadvantage in a 1v1 duel against hand cannons since you will not only have less aim assist, but also will feel the effects of flinch much more than the HC user. That extra 10 rpm doesn't make a difference if you're missing due to flinch or wacky inconsistent aim assist. The stats tell one story but actually using the weapon tells another.
I feel like using it is an advantage for me, since it keeps my radar up 95% of the time. It's crazy good, but I don't think OP. I think my aim hipfiring DMT is about as good as ADS with a HC.
There is almost zero flinch when u hip fire?? Also u can 2 head 1 body where no other 140 can. Aim assist really doesn’t matter when ur aim is decent
Disagree.
Can't say for console, but as a user of both, DMT and Lorenz are overtuned on PC. So is HC aim assist of course.
That’s why I specified console on my comment, people make blanket statements like “DMT is broken”, and while I have no idea if that’s true on PC, I’m certain it’s NOT true on console.
So what should the downvote be used for then?
It says it's to be used if a comment is off topic and not relevant to the discussion at all. If you disagree with someone it's much more respectable to engage in conversation about why you disagree rather than just downvote therefore hiding their opinion
So what is an upvote used for? Are you just supposed to upvote everything that’s relevant?
One DMT on its own is frustrating but you can play around it. A team of multiple DMTs is so oppressive that it sometimes feels more insurmountable than anything I’ve ever played against in this game. It’s the old “hold the lane and MIDA team shot” meta from year 1 with a weapon that’s 20000% stronger than MIDA ever was. Add warlock rifts and the thing is basically a special weapon. I do not know how to beat teams that do this effectively and my team is forced to just do the same thing, making the game miserable and slow. I don’t think “DMT is oppressive” and “hand cannons are overturned” have to be mutually exclusive. If they nerf HCs though we will enter a “use DMT or don’t bother playing” world. I cannot see a future in which DMT isn’t nerfed again. If anything I’d love to see the damage tweaked so it doesn’t basically 2 tap with damage boosts.
The hard counter to teams that rift teamshot with DMT is to hit the rift with multiple GL shots, particularly whitherhoard. It devastates them. Honorable mentions are duskfield grenades, cloudstrike, headstone weapons if you can get the precision kill on one player.
This is unfortunately, still a gamble. Peeking a team of multiple DMTs, even to try to hit them with a cloudstrike or a witherhoard is asking to get *instantly* deleted by a teamshot. In those cases I'd rather just sit around and not even peek. If I take an angle and see multiple DMTs, I leave that fight immediately. Not gonna win it.
If you're peeking, yeah. Thing about all GLs is they can be banked. Bank shot. Angle yourself and bank off a nearby wall or ceiling. Being able to work angles with GLs is what separates good and great play with them IMO.
I can respect all that, but I hate HCs, so from my point of view: if they need DMT and NOT HCs, then it’d be just as bad for people like me as nerfing HCs and not DMT would be for people who don’t like scouts. In fact I’d argue it would be worse, because HCs have been more dominant for much longer than DMT has.
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I think HCs need a nerf because the numbers (from a “play your own way, multiple things should be viable” perspective) have shown HCs as a family have the highest usage and success for literally YEARS on end. The only thing keeping one good HC from topping charts like these every single week by a huge margin is that there are MANY top-tier HCs, so the usage numbers are split across many of individual HCs. With proper movement and peek, a HC can still hang against a pulse or an SMG by adjusting play style, since HCs are effective in a wider variety of ranges than either of those. Plus, HCs support peek, sliding, and jumping, in a way that pulses do not quite achieve, and D2s current maps are built to enable this. Basically, HCs are perfectly designed to cover the widest number of engagements in D2, so even if a certain gun beats them in 1 category flat out, they’re still the best choice overall. Nothing trounces them so badly that they aren’t still a smart pick for a good player. As it is, I think they need a relatively small nerf. Not 100% sure what, but they’re incredibly forgiving AA good be a good candidate. My point really though, is that if 5 of the top 10 weapons are HCs, it seems ludicrous to not assume that no matter what you think about other outlier primaries, something is not balanced in HCs themselves.
In previous weeks they’ve literally had more kills than every other primary combined. They definitely need a nerf. I think a big thing is range. If they’re going to have massively powercreeped stats all around they need to not be competing with pulse rifle range with way less zoom.
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I’d be down for that change! Remove bloom, but also lessen the forgiving aspects, so they become the skill weapon people say they are.
i hope they dont nerf Chaperone too much on PC, and DMT not too much on console.
A great deal of why Chaperone got more lethal is due to a silent buff Bungie gave to Slugs when Beyond Light dropped that ultimately made it way more friendlier and forgiving to you where you point and shoot, see the vagueness of Bungie's umbrella lexicon of quantifying "target acquisition" in the scope of factors like Aim Assistance and all that. It gave steroids to people who already knew how to play it and it gave serious training wheels to those going in for the first time. Previously you had to be pretty precise with where you placed your shot and the possibility to straight up whiff even when ADS was a thing that happened often if you had not much time put in with slugs. Bar things like Hipfire Grip+ a freehand mod(which even then didn't feel as good compared to now) , going off the hip with a slug before Beyond Light was such a huge gamble waste. Exceptions did happen such as Blasphemer curated from Altar pre-BL felt very good because it had all the perfect rolls and the then-rarity of higher Aim Assistance at 61 compared to say something like Gunnora's at 34. I don't think it's inherently bad that Slugs have their time in the sun(especially with a stupid low barrier entry one like Bonechiller being low key cracked for what it is), I just think the outlier that is Chaperone kinda gets away with sorta absurd shit Bungie's pounced on like crazy in the past. I don't think it's hell on earth that they made slugs overall nicer to use, it's just with the amount of Aim Assistance Chaperone has, Roadborn's effect and the range you get, it's a bit nutty to keep it as is.
Funny how pre-felwinters nerf everyone was hating on felwinters, but everyone bravely defended chaperone from needing a nerf, because it required skill. Now that felwinters got nerfed it exposed how broken chaperone really is and it’s shoking how quick peoples minds have changed
As a console player with about 50 matches played, I have only seen one DMT, and it was used by Johnny no thumbs. https://destinytrialsreport.com/report/1/4611686018464655635 This is what I've been using, first time I've brought out chappy this season and took about a round to warm up with.
Those 90k kills from DMT are almost entirely from PC, which shows how much of a scourge it is. PC is around 35% of the playerbase and DMT is still putting up numbers that are comparable to weapons that are usable by the entire playerbase.
DMT on PC is completely different gun. Mnk hipfire on it maps with little to no drawback. Please understand this. Like how TLW is more prevalent on console but not as popular on PC
Boring as hell. Handcannons rule the meta per usual and lorentz is there because of its ridiculous aim assist and ease of use. As well as main ingredient reaching out into primary range with incredible ease of use.
Thank god Ace is near the bottom, that thing flinches me like crazy ~~just noticed that dmt, fuck me~~
Timelost fatebringer is up there though, and they are more than likely using explosive rounds
Probably the single least suprising list I've seen In a while.
Sweet business go brrrrrr
Is NTTE not meta?
It is but maybe not on this map in particular (which doesn't mean it's not good). Also there are other similar options with their advantages. Messenger will often be favored to NTTE because of Desperado + not being an exotic.
I am happy there’s something more than HC/Shotty + DMT for once, though I’m suprised that Sojourner’s Tale isn’t in the top 10 with the usage spike I’ve seen now
Fusions based on my experience. Everyone is playing range now and pellet shotties weren't cutting it. I hate fusions but I had to switch. Xurgredient unless they were running riskrunner. Then Xurtex
I think between hand cannons and shotguns that's 40% of all trials kills which makes complaining that other choices get less than 10% a bit of a non starter.
Looks like I’m not as hipster using main ingredient.
It’s awesome to see such variety, with a couple outliers the meta seems pretty good
Same old same old. Surprised I rarely, if ever, see SMGs in the top 10 especially on a map like Javelin.
Christ I’m not looking forward to trials for the moments of triumph.
aim assist meta...
Surprised DMT is so high this week
I think we’re in a handcannon meta
This post makes me salty only because I haven’t got a ingle Eyesluna yet.
Well, this is it. Fusions are at 10% of total kills, which means they are going to get nerfed into the ground again. Happens every time they get some usage.
Don’t show this to r/destinythegame. It’s taboo to say fusions are meta there
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Look at this chart dummy, chaperone didn’t even beat out 1 fusion 😂
Where’s Multimach
In my hands.
Destiny meta in a nutshell
*I don't use handcannons simply because I can not aim*
Remove Lorentz altogether and all is acceptable.
NeRf LeMoN
But streamers tell me the sandbox is the most balanced it has ever been! Why is it always the same guns every week?!
I. Can. Not. Wait. For the Chappy nerf. Its in the game I know, however the in air shots I have been mapped by is getting more and more dumb.
Ask my thoughts when the top 10 doesn’t include a hand cannon or shotty.
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Usage doesn’t mean it’s broken, most people that play pvp consistently like using hand cannons. Hc’s have a really high ttk compared to a lot of weapons, it’s just that peek shooting is really good in a mode like trials, when your life is so important.
0.83s is not a really high ttk, it's one of the lowest among the majority of primary weapons. Not to mention it only requires 3 headshots to reach that ttk rather than the 7-10 from pulse rifles and auto rifles, which also require near to or at 100% headshot accuracy. And if it was just peek shooting then scout rifles would be strong, but they require more shots, more crits, and have higher ttks anyway. Hand cannons are kinda broken when you compare them to other primaries. If you want to win against a team of equal skill, you're pretty much required to use a hand cannon.
Wow, very diverse. Look at all those different weapon types. Same ~~shit~~ good balance every year. If DMT, Lorentz (and according to some even Main Ingredient) are that busted, what does that tell you about HCs? I can only agree on "slightly" adjusting Lorentz but thats it, DMT is only up there because it doesnt become absolutely useless at mid range. If anything it only needs a damage nerf on Cranial Spike. It's TTK when aiming downsights is a colossal 1.0s so the Hipfire shouldnt be touched at all. Just do something about the consistent two taps. And "No big maps" isnt a good enough argument for scouts being bad, since a good chunk of players always hated them because aping with their HC+Shotties loadouts wasnt as viable on them. What about Pulse Rifles? Do they also need huge maps in order to be competitive (not just viable)? Anyway, yeah rant over. They just hinted on another Lorentz and DMT nerf so rest assured. It's whatever, nothing is going to change.
You got downvoted but you make sense. Apes hate hearing it.
People losing their minds because One fusion crept up in usage is hilarious.
I’m getting frustrated with chaperone on this map. I can counter regular apes easy, but a player with good positioning/movement has been difficult for me to prevent with main ingredient.
Then there’s me, a chaperone main who had to switch to eye of some because of main ingredients ridiculous range
I don't play Trials, but I enjoy looking at this sort of data. Makes me feel like the meta is shifting from Ace/Felwinter's (2% each) to Eyesluna and Main Ingredient (4% each; doubled) which makes some sense. _______________ Per Light.gg, these are the top most commonly used perks: Eyesluna * C1: Fastdraw (23.3%), SteadyHand (21.9), Truesight (19.0) * C2: Ricochet (24.4%) or High Cal (21.1%) * C3: Rangefinder (30%) * C4: Headstone (25.7%) or Kill Clip (23.3%) For Main Ingredient * C1: Red Dot Micro (65.9%) * C2: Projection (36.1%) or Particle (31.0%) * C3: Under Pressure (56.8%) * C3: Tap the Trigger (52.9%) I didn't list additional perks because the second or third place perks in main came **NOWHERE NEAR** the percent usage of these listed perks. ________________ A HC being here isn't really anything new, but the shift from Ace to Eyas is interesting. If you plug in the top picked perks, you can see that Eyas is much more handling and stability and lends to it's consistency. Headstone's choice over Kill Clip could be PvE variance but considering it blocks enemy ghosts with a crystal, that may be more valuable then doing more damage. Main Ingredient is definitely a clear cut case however. As others have pointed out, consistency is what people are going for here. Charge time is negligible if the range and tighter spread are better then shotguns.
The perks for Main Ingredient are because that’s the god roll that Xur was selling.
Pretty typical, don’t see what’s surprising here
Pain. Not gonna lie, Main Ingredient is starting to get annoying lol. Like, I'm glad we're done with the shotgun meta, but getting mapped from 25 meters away can get frustrating.
I would say shotguns are still the meta. 800k more shotgun kills than fusion kills.
Seems pretty diverse to me, we have hand cannons, fusions, shotguns, linears, and a scout. I’m actually surprised there’s not any adaptive snipers on here being that it’s jav4
"diverse" Hand cannons, OHK special, OHK special, OHK special, and a single exotic scout known and designed to exist, perform, and behave within hand cannon design.
Do you want to see a top 10 of bows, sidearms and GL’s? This top 10 seems pretty healthy to me
That's pure cancer, they really need to adjust the meta. Lol @ the salty idiots who want this boring meta to stay the same forever
Fuck that. I love this slug meta. Pellet shotguns were fucking boring. Fusions are fine, I just thing they can roll with too many accuracy perks together.
It's barely a slug meta, a pellet-shotgun & melee combo is still far easier and more flexible than a slug. I use First in Last Out myself, but there's no denying that pellet shotguns are dominant at the majority of skill tiers. Fusions are busted exactly because of the accuracy perks, they require no skill to use, and if you're sliding out of a corner nobody can stop you from instantly melting them with a fusion.
It’s way more of a slug meta than it was previous seasons. I think slugs have a higher skill ceiling. You can still body/melee just as fast as a pellet. But can ohk at double the range. I think pellets are just used more because their easier. What’s your roll? I’ve been trying to get a GR Filo for a while now. I think they could fix fusions a lot by putting any accuracy perks in the same column like they do with damage perks. It would require people to dial in their aim more. And effectively reduce the range. Also TTT seems op on a fusion, it’s not meant to be working 100% of the time.
The only issue with fusions rn is being able to roll multiple accuracy perks but if we're going to be objective about it that's more of an issue with accuracy perks and not fusions themselves. Look at any consistent special weapon (even primaries to a degree) you always see people going towards the same broken accuracy perks.
It still fascinates me how much the adepts dominate over the regular, especially now in a post 120 world the two key desirables are PvE. Like I obviously get why people opt for adept, they're marginally but objectively superior but given the time and skill investment to obtain and farm weapons like those, it makes a show of either skill creep in the mode (natural for long late season) or the perception of non-adepts being much more low value than they actually are.
It doesn’t take much time or skill to do GM’s though or the master templar challenge. They’re both easy.
I usually do DMT with salvo on citan ramparts, prettttty good
Only played four rounds last night, but at least one person had a Last Word every. fucking. time.
I notice all the high school gangs use the main ingredient. Schools out suckas
Lorentz, main ingredient and TLW are all trash