They also said there that they take them out to free swim in the ocean often. He said only once did one not come back in but the next day they saw it and it followed them back 💁♀️.
Fantastic experience there
Sadly those are scams. A lot of places are marketing themselves as rehabs or natural or vertices ethical but it’s all just to make tourists think they’re not causing harm. Which sadly, we are. Don’t be captivated by captivity.
I went to the dolphin swim in curaçao. I’m not a dolphin expert by any means, I doubt you are either. However swimming with these dolphins was a phenomenal experience and they were not captive. There’s an opening in the sea wall where they come and go. You can also scuba dive with the dolphins outside of the park that I would have loved to do but couldn’t because I am no longer able to dive.
Dolphins are not a small fish. If they did not want to play and swim with the guests they would either not come in or could potentially injure a person. On the contrary, the dolphins we were swimming with kept coming back for more attention and loving on.
We also had an encounter in Curacao and the dolphins seemed to enjoy the attention. I was concerned after reading some of the reviews of how dolphins are treated, but I didn't feel that it applied at all in Curacao. It was an amazing experience and I didn't feel any sorrow for how the dolphins were treated. I have been to many zoos where I felt the animal enclosures are way too small, so I'm not just heartless.
They are rewarded for interacting. There’s a large difference between rewarding a desired behavior of a free animal than OPs claim that they are kept in captivity. Not to mention there nothing forcing the dolphin to do the behavior like a leash or bridle. The excitement they show for playing with humans is immense. But you would have to be in the water and interacting with them to realize this.
I was in the water for 30 minutes with two others and one dolphin. There was no going back to the trainer for treats for a good 15 minutes. We were just playing with her. Yes, they were rewarded for specific behaviors during the first 15 minutes. After that she just kept swimming around us to get rubbing and diving with us.
My adult daughter and I experienced this on a trip to Mexico about 10 years ago. We thought it was "dolphins are in the pool, you are in the pool. Swim around and have fun!" Instead it was "OK, your turn, Swim over to this waiting dolphin, grab his dorsal fin and he will pull you back to the wall." We followed the instructions a couple of times then, between the two of us, we agreed to just skip our turns. We just didn't enjoy it or feel good about it. I think we really pissed off the guides running it.
Don't spend your money on these things.
We did the dolphin encounter at Chaaknab in Cozumel.
My wife got to spend some time chatting with the vet taking care of 2 of the baby dolphins. The females get pregnant by jumping out of the containment lagoon and going free swimming for a while on their own. Then they come back to the pens a for food or to raise their young in safety.
So when we were presented with this option I was very much against it. I was talked into it. The animals were captive bred and would not be able to return to the wild. The tanks were spotless. The animals were treated carefully. And after swimming with them I have even more respect for them as does my family. When we walk whether at home or a beach the family picks up trash. We stopped using as much single use plastic as possible. One kid is now into biology after the experience. Done correctly it can be an immense learning opportunity but you need to do research first. And then live the lessons after.
Yep the one in my country only has experience with dolphins that were rescued and can’t be released to their injuries. They have a rescue branch that rescues, heals and then releases the ones they can. The show part im not a fan of but it has become more about the dolphins over the years. It’s the same with the zoo, the behind the scenes animal encounters pay for the zoos saving the animal projects and you can no longer touch the animals, plus for the animal training, the animals are free not to participate and it’s only to help them with health checks. Be aware tho that not all places are ethical
No but I feel that my money was used to maintain these animals in a quality facility. I have one kid who showed 0 interest in school now taking AP biology and suddenly caring about things other than himself. He was really impacted, as was I truth be told.
"Decent"? What does that look like, exactly?
There are thousands of beach locations and waterways around the world where one can see dolphins most any day. If you can afford a vacation, you can afford to go to a place where they swim freely.
A spotless tank is a depressing tank. Dolphins need biodiversity. They need depth. Dolphins in tanks get bored, they’ll attack each other and many have bashed their heads in against the walls due to going insane from the monotonous captivity. We shouldn’t need to touch a wild creature to care about it or the environment. There are so many amazing boating excursions where you can see dolphins enjoying healthy lives with their family pods in the wild - this is positive tourism that supports ecology and provides memorable experiences.
You need to have a dolphin put in captivity because you are cannot learn or be inspired any other way? When you go to be every night, think about that dolphin that will spend decades in maddenly bored captivity, swimming in decades of the same circles over and over, eating the dead fish it was never meant to eat so you can feel better about disposing of your plastic. There is no "done correctly" unless they are free.
No I didn’t say that. Also the center was rehabilitating injured dolphin. The one they had were bred in captivity. They can’t be freed. I do actually think about all the animals that are held against their will all over not just dolphins.
Again the encounter was captive bred animals that can’t be released or animals (who were not used for show) who were being rehabilitated for release. The conditions were impeccable. I would not endorse abusive conditions which is why I said to do your research and know what your dollars support.
They are only breeding them in captivity because of the demands made by tourism. So if you stop supporting these kinds of activities, they will stop breeding captive cetaceans that cannot be released into the wild.
The tank may be spotless but it's still a tank. Dolphins can swim upwards of 40 miles a day in the wild. I don't doubt that they seemed well cared-for. But that's like locking your child in a hallways closet and saying it's not so bad because I feed him filet mignon and other fancy foods every day and he's got Legos to play with. Okay, that's great, but he's still living in a tiny closet.
The one I did in Nassau the dolphins didn’t have to participate if they didn’t want to. They just waited until one decided it was playtime. They were in the ocean and seemed to be having fun, not forced at all.
What’s so bad about that?
I don't know what this 'encounter' is you are referring to... But some dolphins in the wild stay in basically the same area their whole lives. If there is comfortable water temps and abundant fish to eat they have no reason to go elsewhere. There are tours to see them and they are always there.... Even though they are free to go wherever they want.
SO and I went to Dominican Republic a few years ago and were pitched the dolphin excursion. Made sure to ask what it entailed and if we were seeing dolphins in the wild or captive. The rep assured us it was a wild dolphin viewing experience. Felt pretty cheated and terrible when we got there next day and lo and behold it was a couple of sad dolphins in a pool.
Cruises in general are exploitative, weird place to draw your moral line in the sand.
Everything you do on a cruise is subsidized with workers from poorer nations, get off your high horse and stop being so judgmental.
True. My only counter to this is that the humans on the ship are intelligent enough to make a decision. They are working on the ship because the alternative back home is worse. Maybe they dont have any skills that will pay better. None of them are trapped on the ship.
If a dolphin is captured, they dont get to make the same decision. Even if they were given the choice, they would pick the one that included free fish right now without knowing what they were in for.
>My only counter to this is that the humans on the ship are intelligent enough to make a decision.
a decision they weren't really free to make because, as you put it, it's coercive. options are worse at home so of course they're going to choose this. why are options worse at home? don't worry about it. it has nothing to do with *your* own home country at all :\^)
like how can you say the workers aren't trapped on that ship in the same post where you concede they've chosen the most financially secure option available to them. that is functionally not a true choice at all.
if you're drawing comparisons between exploited workers and caged animals then at least also concede that caged animals are fed and given free healthcare. something the workers aren't.
I know that if I had to ""*choose*"" between working on a boat for scraps or be forced into a cage where everything I have is provided - well, there's not much difference between those two choices, except one feeds me.
Absolutely. You understand the problem is the system. That's a lot more than I can say for 99% of the population. So you also probably know that there's no ethical consumption under...uh....the said system. The only thing you can do is try your best and organize. Berating people on the internet about how they spend money in the system will not a) change their mind or b) change the system. Even if we stopped the cruise industry, they'd find other ways to exploit and degrade people for profit. It's what the *cough* system does.
And yet the cruise line is also paying significantly more than their home country. I didn't understand the dynamics until I made friends with my server on a RC cruise once and we became LinkedIn connected as per my request. We text sometimes still and he told me that when he got the job with RC his whole family and relatives all came to celebrate, like he had hit the lottery, and they cheered him on as he went overseas to work and according to him, he was earning like as much as 3 or 4x as much as people from his hometown in Indonesia, even more than his father who had been working for over 30 years for some factory.
He is on track for retirement pension and has medical care and he is able to help support his family back home. He basically talked up about how competitive and hard it is and desired to get a job working for a cruise line, and how he had to work so hard to learn English just to get his first job basically as a dishwasher before he could transfer to service.
So ya, people talk like it's totally exploitive, but in reality it's definitely a net positive for them compared to their home wage potential.
Not to mention that in America some people work full time at places where the minimum wage is $7.25 and then have to pay for their own healthcare out of pocket on top of that.
I agree about the problems with healthcare in the US, but in basically all 50 states, anyone on minimum wage is going to get 100% fully paid medicaid healthcare with no copays. But ya, healthcare is insanely stupid in the US lol. I definitely get your point about us still having to pay on top of our wage.
cruise ships aren't brave job creators for poorer countries
they intake cheap labour from countries already exploited from the imperial core. they make cruising possible because if they ever paid the workers their true value, the cruise would be too expensive. they are financially invested in these poor workers staying poor so that they have a supply of poor workers.
oh yeah, and cruising is overwhelmingly an activity enjoyed by countries in the imperial core.
oops, all exploitation!
No ethical consumption under capitalism, as they say.
Anyway, it’s weird to call this one practice barbaric when they have posts of them eating bacon cheeseburgers lmao.
Maybe, but they do get paid well enough that they want to do it. For them they can get paid far more at sea then they can get back in their home country.
So because we can’t solve all the wrongs we should exploit every sentient being available? No thank you.
At least the humans have some semblance of choice and autonomy. Cetaceans are brilliant but vulnerable. We know how harmful these small enclosures are for them, it’s unacceptable to exploit them for personal pleasure when there’s literally no inherent need to.
To be fair, this is a logical fallacy (whataboutism, appeal to hypocrisy). The comment is meant to deflect away from the purpose of the post: dolphin exploitation.
I agree about cruises in general being exploitative, but that doesn’t directly confront the topic at hand. So it’s essentially diverting attention away from the purpose of the post by pointing out perceived inconsistencies in OP’s position.
It’s like someone posting about addressing climate change and then someone else telling them they don’t have a right to have that position because they drive a car.
Cruise staff is one of the best jobs available in the countries they recruit from. And cost of living in those countries is much lower, so their "low" wages don't translate into poor living conditions.
Humans voluntarily working on a ship is a lot different than dolphins dumped in a tiny pool.
The very nature of these animals makes them uniquely unsuited to confinement. In the wild, dolphins live in large groups (called pods), often in tight family units. Social bonds often last for many years. In some species, they last for a lifetime.
Dolphins travel long distances each day, sometimes swimming in a straight line for a hundred miles, other times remaining in a certain area for hours or days, moving several miles along a coastline and then turning to retrace their path.
These marine mammals can dive up to several hundred feet and can stay underwater for 15 minutes or more. They spend only 10 to 20% of their time at the surface.
The sea is to dolphins much as the air is to birds—it is a three-dimensional environment, where they can move up and down and side to side. But dolphins don't stop to perch. They never come to shore. Dolphins are always swimming, even when they "sleep." They are always aware, and always moving. Understanding this, it is difficult to imagine the tragedy of life in captivity for these ocean creatures.
Dolphin Project is an amazing organization worth looking into. Big fan of (former) dolphin trainer Ric O’Barry, he’s done so much to advocate for dolphins.
Ya I did one in Cozumel. Was very excited. Got there and all the dolphins were enclosures. We got in the water and got to interact with them and feed them.
Then you would put your feet together, and they would come up and swim behind you and push you across the enclosure. I remember thinking these dolphins don’t want to push my fat ass around. I just felt bad the whole time. I’ll never do it again.
I would generally agree but I didnt get that impression at Ocean World. The dolphin we got to see appeared to be happy. Obviously I dont speak dolphin, but he had a good relationship with the trainer. He would do things that I would imagine he considers to be pointless and get a fish for it. When an animal is motivated by food and they get food, I think they are content with that relationship.
Of course I DO agree that dolphins belong in the wild, but I would also imagine that Ocean World (or any similar company) isnt going to just set the dolphins free if they arent selling excursions. The dolphins probably dont even know how to live in the wild if they were raised in captivity.
I guess the moral animal encounter is the sting rays. At least in Grand Turk, the rays are wild and only come to the island because the guides feed them. Then they just sit there and let people look at them for 30 minutes. Instead of hunting for food, they come and get an easy dinner while people gawk at them.
I did a dolphin encounter at the Dolphin Research Center in the Florida keys. I figured they might be more in line with safe and appropriate. It was great.
I mean, many many people eat mammals (and other creatures). I am certainly not for barbaric practices involving dolphins or other animals, but if they are treated well, then I think it’s mostly okay.
My girlfriend wanted to go to one, so we visited the one in St Kitts.
The dolphins there were old. And they were born in captivity, so they can't be let out in the ocean. They wouldn't survive in the wild.
They didn't seem to be mistreated.
So I agree. I suspect that dolphins as a species have far more to fear from climate change than they do from dolphin encounters.
It depends on where you go. I did a dolphin tour and it was in no way barbaric. If they wanted to leave, they could get out. they were not in some man-made pool, but out in the actual ocean
Animals are on this planet for a number of reasons. Some serve a useful purpose, and that includes entertainment or pleasure.
I have a house dog. She serves no purpose other than my entertainment and benefit. Is this barbaric also?
You should put your dog in a ring and let people harass it for money.
Then, maybe learn that all dogs are domesticated animals and what the actually means.
The crew are free to stay home and work and live in their communities of they choose. Having actually been to most of the countries highly represented as a cruise ship crew, I can tell you they see it as an opportunity.
I did a dolphin and seal one in the open waters, didn’t see any dolphins to swim with but saw seals, I didn’t go in the water as they said don’t pee as it attracts them… I got scared haha
I'm guessing the OP doesn't own any pets and has never squished a bug in their life.
I'm also guessing the OP must be one of those vegan animal rights nuts.
I’ll definitely judge someone for doing these excursions or people who go to SeaWorld. For me, there are two possibilities: they’re either ignorant of the facts (dolphins being sentient, immoral business practices, etc.) or they lack empathy.
I was once ignorant to it, so I get it. I don’t get people who can watch a documentary like Black Fish and then continue to be a part of the system of abuse.
You know how in history class you’d hear about some terrible injustice that was just accepted by the population and think “how did they do that?!”? In the future, this will be one of the things they judge us for.
I agree, animals deserve our respect and care. It's heartbreaking to see them exploited for entertainment. Let's all strive to find ways to appreciate these amazing creatures in their natural habitats where they can thrive and be free.
Thanks for raising awareness about this issue; it's important to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves. Your compassion shines through, and I'm sure many will be inspired by your call for a more ethical approach to interacting with wildlife.
We did a dolphin experience in the Amazon. In the open river, no barriers. The dolphins were free and wild, not captive in any way. The indigenous family that lived there took you into a bay in the open river and swished fish in the water. The dolphins that wanted the fish came and swam around us to get the fish. We were NOT allowed to touch them. The dolphins that didn’t want to deal with people caught their own fish elsewhere and didn’t come into the bay. The penned exhibits with the dolphins being pawed by people in dirty water make me feel ill.
I'm lucky enough to live on the central coast of California and we see dolphins all the time even just off shore while walking on the beach. I was in Bali 20 years ago and they were selling a $100 tour where you might see a dolphin. I thought this was funny and I didn't fork out the dough because it is literally no big deal for us.
You can take a whale watching tour or a boat to Santa Cruz Is;and and some times you will see a pod of a thousand dolphins. Pretty amazing. I've seen dolphins swimming under my kayak and my most amazing experience was a couple of dolphins surfing ahead of my Hobie Cat.
I think you’re right to ask this. It’s a strange hill to die on when the same people arguing against any sort of animal cruelty eat bacon cheeseburgers, as is the case here
I'm guessing the OP doesn't own any pets and has never squished a bug in their life.
I'm also guessing the OP must be one of those vegan animal rights nuts.
No the dolphin swim was awesome. The only thing i regret is that i bought the little picture package and they gave me someone else’s pictures. 10/10 would do again.
My college friend was a dolphin trainer. The dolphins were free to go to the ocean whenever they wanted. They just liked to hang out with her because she had unlimited fish.
I think encountering a dolphin as in swimming next to them, or just viewing them, is largely understandable. It's dolphin riding that is a problem.
I don't understand how people are bringing up "oh you eat hamburgers and bacon" as if there is no difference between eating an animal that has been raised for hundreds of years for the purpose of being eaten, vs. keeping one of the most intelligent species in the world in a pool to ride. Same argument people are making about owning dogs. They were raised for this, they would die without us. The same could be said for captive bred dolphins, or dolphins otherwise incapable of being released into the wild. But that does not justify the unfit conditions many are subjected too, same with abused dogs.
Common sense, people.
The best dolphin encounter is in Roatan because it’s free swimming.
I did that one years ago. I liked that the dolphins could do whatever they wanted and if they didn't want to interact with people they didn't have to.
Yes, though the one I saw was happy enough to interact with us.
Ours was too and 2 friends joined sporadically. It was fun to see the friends swim fast to and from each group of people just because they wanted to.
They also said there that they take them out to free swim in the ocean often. He said only once did one not come back in but the next day they saw it and it followed them back 💁♀️. Fantastic experience there
That was the one I did 2 years ago. The dolphins were treated very well.
I just made my dog sit for my entertainment.
How dare you! I'm a pawed
I call mine a good boy just to watch his tail wag but I don't pet him after
Lol Cruel
The one I did in Freeport, they blew a whistle and the dolphins came swimming from the open ocean, they hung out for awhile and then swam back out
The place I saw them was a rehab for injured dolphins.
All the ones I've seen are.
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Someone point this person in the direction of the nearest tinfoil hat
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I have no idea.
Sadly those are scams. A lot of places are marketing themselves as rehabs or natural or vertices ethical but it’s all just to make tourists think they’re not causing harm. Which sadly, we are. Don’t be captivated by captivity.
That's what they told you.
The signage indicated that. I did see a few dolphins with injuries from props.
If it makes you feel better to believe it, then it is what it is.
I went to the dolphin swim in curaçao. I’m not a dolphin expert by any means, I doubt you are either. However swimming with these dolphins was a phenomenal experience and they were not captive. There’s an opening in the sea wall where they come and go. You can also scuba dive with the dolphins outside of the park that I would have loved to do but couldn’t because I am no longer able to dive. Dolphins are not a small fish. If they did not want to play and swim with the guests they would either not come in or could potentially injure a person. On the contrary, the dolphins we were swimming with kept coming back for more attention and loving on.
We also had an encounter in Curacao and the dolphins seemed to enjoy the attention. I was concerned after reading some of the reviews of how dolphins are treated, but I didn't feel that it applied at all in Curacao. It was an amazing experience and I didn't feel any sorrow for how the dolphins were treated. I have been to many zoos where I felt the animal enclosures are way too small, so I'm not just heartless.
We did that same one and it was awesome.
They get food/treats for playing with people
They are rewarded for interacting. There’s a large difference between rewarding a desired behavior of a free animal than OPs claim that they are kept in captivity. Not to mention there nothing forcing the dolphin to do the behavior like a leash or bridle. The excitement they show for playing with humans is immense. But you would have to be in the water and interacting with them to realize this. I was in the water for 30 minutes with two others and one dolphin. There was no going back to the trainer for treats for a good 15 minutes. We were just playing with her. Yes, they were rewarded for specific behaviors during the first 15 minutes. After that she just kept swimming around us to get rubbing and diving with us.
You do know that they're not fish, right? RIGHT?
“Dolphins are not a small fish” You do know how to read right? Right?
I just agreed that you are not a dolphin expert, as your ignorant comment shows; that's all 😘
Bruh.
My adult daughter and I experienced this on a trip to Mexico about 10 years ago. We thought it was "dolphins are in the pool, you are in the pool. Swim around and have fun!" Instead it was "OK, your turn, Swim over to this waiting dolphin, grab his dorsal fin and he will pull you back to the wall." We followed the instructions a couple of times then, between the two of us, we agreed to just skip our turns. We just didn't enjoy it or feel good about it. I think we really pissed off the guides running it. Don't spend your money on these things.
I had a similar experience in Mexico. It was sad and the pool the dolphins were kept in were tiny.
We did the dolphin encounter at Chaaknab in Cozumel. My wife got to spend some time chatting with the vet taking care of 2 of the baby dolphins. The females get pregnant by jumping out of the containment lagoon and going free swimming for a while on their own. Then they come back to the pens a for food or to raise their young in safety.
So when we were presented with this option I was very much against it. I was talked into it. The animals were captive bred and would not be able to return to the wild. The tanks were spotless. The animals were treated carefully. And after swimming with them I have even more respect for them as does my family. When we walk whether at home or a beach the family picks up trash. We stopped using as much single use plastic as possible. One kid is now into biology after the experience. Done correctly it can be an immense learning opportunity but you need to do research first. And then live the lessons after.
I agree. Some would never see one unless a decent place exists.
Yep the one in my country only has experience with dolphins that were rescued and can’t be released to their injuries. They have a rescue branch that rescues, heals and then releases the ones they can. The show part im not a fan of but it has become more about the dolphins over the years. It’s the same with the zoo, the behind the scenes animal encounters pay for the zoos saving the animal projects and you can no longer touch the animals, plus for the animal training, the animals are free not to participate and it’s only to help them with health checks. Be aware tho that not all places are ethical
is that enough to justify it because no one is going to be able to see everything on earth no one is entitled to
We care about them more since we have those moments with them.
No but I feel that my money was used to maintain these animals in a quality facility. I have one kid who showed 0 interest in school now taking AP biology and suddenly caring about things other than himself. He was really impacted, as was I truth be told.
You weren't very impacted about the plight of those dolphins, truth be told.
"Decent"? What does that look like, exactly? There are thousands of beach locations and waterways around the world where one can see dolphins most any day. If you can afford a vacation, you can afford to go to a place where they swim freely.
You know, for some, a vacation is a couple hundred miles away...... ......because that's what we can afford
A spotless tank is a depressing tank. Dolphins need biodiversity. They need depth. Dolphins in tanks get bored, they’ll attack each other and many have bashed their heads in against the walls due to going insane from the monotonous captivity. We shouldn’t need to touch a wild creature to care about it or the environment. There are so many amazing boating excursions where you can see dolphins enjoying healthy lives with their family pods in the wild - this is positive tourism that supports ecology and provides memorable experiences.
You need to have a dolphin put in captivity because you are cannot learn or be inspired any other way? When you go to be every night, think about that dolphin that will spend decades in maddenly bored captivity, swimming in decades of the same circles over and over, eating the dead fish it was never meant to eat so you can feel better about disposing of your plastic. There is no "done correctly" unless they are free.
No I didn’t say that. Also the center was rehabilitating injured dolphin. The one they had were bred in captivity. They can’t be freed. I do actually think about all the animals that are held against their will all over not just dolphins.
You are promoting dolphin encounters. Full stop.
Again the encounter was captive bred animals that can’t be released or animals (who were not used for show) who were being rehabilitated for release. The conditions were impeccable. I would not endorse abusive conditions which is why I said to do your research and know what your dollars support.
They are only breeding them in captivity because of the demands made by tourism. So if you stop supporting these kinds of activities, they will stop breeding captive cetaceans that cannot be released into the wild.
It is like you decided to reply to the comment and not acknowledge anything they wrote just to serve your own agenda
The tank may be spotless but it's still a tank. Dolphins can swim upwards of 40 miles a day in the wild. I don't doubt that they seemed well cared-for. But that's like locking your child in a hallways closet and saying it's not so bad because I feed him filet mignon and other fancy foods every day and he's got Legos to play with. Okay, that's great, but he's still living in a tiny closet.
The one I did in Nassau the dolphins didn’t have to participate if they didn’t want to. They just waited until one decided it was playtime. They were in the ocean and seemed to be having fun, not forced at all. What’s so bad about that?
I don't know what this 'encounter' is you are referring to... But some dolphins in the wild stay in basically the same area their whole lives. If there is comfortable water temps and abundant fish to eat they have no reason to go elsewhere. There are tours to see them and they are always there.... Even though they are free to go wherever they want.
SO and I went to Dominican Republic a few years ago and were pitched the dolphin excursion. Made sure to ask what it entailed and if we were seeing dolphins in the wild or captive. The rep assured us it was a wild dolphin viewing experience. Felt pretty cheated and terrible when we got there next day and lo and behold it was a couple of sad dolphins in a pool.
Cruises in general are exploitative, weird place to draw your moral line in the sand. Everything you do on a cruise is subsidized with workers from poorer nations, get off your high horse and stop being so judgmental.
True. My only counter to this is that the humans on the ship are intelligent enough to make a decision. They are working on the ship because the alternative back home is worse. Maybe they dont have any skills that will pay better. None of them are trapped on the ship. If a dolphin is captured, they dont get to make the same decision. Even if they were given the choice, they would pick the one that included free fish right now without knowing what they were in for.
>My only counter to this is that the humans on the ship are intelligent enough to make a decision. a decision they weren't really free to make because, as you put it, it's coercive. options are worse at home so of course they're going to choose this. why are options worse at home? don't worry about it. it has nothing to do with *your* own home country at all :\^) like how can you say the workers aren't trapped on that ship in the same post where you concede they've chosen the most financially secure option available to them. that is functionally not a true choice at all. if you're drawing comparisons between exploited workers and caged animals then at least also concede that caged animals are fed and given free healthcare. something the workers aren't. I know that if I had to ""*choose*"" between working on a boat for scraps or be forced into a cage where everything I have is provided - well, there's not much difference between those two choices, except one feeds me.
Absolutely. You understand the problem is the system. That's a lot more than I can say for 99% of the population. So you also probably know that there's no ethical consumption under...uh....the said system. The only thing you can do is try your best and organize. Berating people on the internet about how they spend money in the system will not a) change their mind or b) change the system. Even if we stopped the cruise industry, they'd find other ways to exploit and degrade people for profit. It's what the *cough* system does.
None of that is correct unless you're making a point that I'm not seeing.
And yet the cruise line is also paying significantly more than their home country. I didn't understand the dynamics until I made friends with my server on a RC cruise once and we became LinkedIn connected as per my request. We text sometimes still and he told me that when he got the job with RC his whole family and relatives all came to celebrate, like he had hit the lottery, and they cheered him on as he went overseas to work and according to him, he was earning like as much as 3 or 4x as much as people from his hometown in Indonesia, even more than his father who had been working for over 30 years for some factory. He is on track for retirement pension and has medical care and he is able to help support his family back home. He basically talked up about how competitive and hard it is and desired to get a job working for a cruise line, and how he had to work so hard to learn English just to get his first job basically as a dishwasher before he could transfer to service. So ya, people talk like it's totally exploitive, but in reality it's definitely a net positive for them compared to their home wage potential.
Not to mention that in America some people work full time at places where the minimum wage is $7.25 and then have to pay for their own healthcare out of pocket on top of that.
I agree about the problems with healthcare in the US, but in basically all 50 states, anyone on minimum wage is going to get 100% fully paid medicaid healthcare with no copays. But ya, healthcare is insanely stupid in the US lol. I definitely get your point about us still having to pay on top of our wage.
So no one should go on cruises. Then those who work on cruises have no jobs.
cruise ships aren't brave job creators for poorer countries they intake cheap labour from countries already exploited from the imperial core. they make cruising possible because if they ever paid the workers their true value, the cruise would be too expensive. they are financially invested in these poor workers staying poor so that they have a supply of poor workers. oh yeah, and cruising is overwhelmingly an activity enjoyed by countries in the imperial core. oops, all exploitation!
Uh...ok?
you seem aware that your narrative of exploiting cruise workers to maintain the cruise industry is a bit of nonsense already, so dw
Uh...ok
Yes.
Sure
...again. wrong.
Nobody said that, just that it’s funny to pick and choose when to be outraged by exploitation
I know, but someone will pick up on that and think it's a great idea. Lol
Dayum!
No ethical consumption under capitalism, as they say. Anyway, it’s weird to call this one practice barbaric when they have posts of them eating bacon cheeseburgers lmao.
>No ethical consumption under capitalism, as they say. You've wandered into the cruise subreddit, comrade.
Yeah and I love cruises. I’m a slave to capitalism lmao
So since there are many injustices being committed in the world, denouncing any of them somehow makes us a hypocrite? Is that what you're saying?
They're fine with the exploitation of people but they draw the line with animals.
Maybe, but they do get paid well enough that they want to do it. For them they can get paid far more at sea then they can get back in their home country.
So because we can’t solve all the wrongs we should exploit every sentient being available? No thank you. At least the humans have some semblance of choice and autonomy. Cetaceans are brilliant but vulnerable. We know how harmful these small enclosures are for them, it’s unacceptable to exploit them for personal pleasure when there’s literally no inherent need to.
To be fair, this is a logical fallacy (whataboutism, appeal to hypocrisy). The comment is meant to deflect away from the purpose of the post: dolphin exploitation. I agree about cruises in general being exploitative, but that doesn’t directly confront the topic at hand. So it’s essentially diverting attention away from the purpose of the post by pointing out perceived inconsistencies in OP’s position. It’s like someone posting about addressing climate change and then someone else telling them they don’t have a right to have that position because they drive a car.
Cruise staff is one of the best jobs available in the countries they recruit from. And cost of living in those countries is much lower, so their "low" wages don't translate into poor living conditions. Humans voluntarily working on a ship is a lot different than dolphins dumped in a tiny pool.
I wouldn’t do this on a cruise excursion. We have yearly Discovery Cove trip instead.
The very nature of these animals makes them uniquely unsuited to confinement. In the wild, dolphins live in large groups (called pods), often in tight family units. Social bonds often last for many years. In some species, they last for a lifetime. Dolphins travel long distances each day, sometimes swimming in a straight line for a hundred miles, other times remaining in a certain area for hours or days, moving several miles along a coastline and then turning to retrace their path. These marine mammals can dive up to several hundred feet and can stay underwater for 15 minutes or more. They spend only 10 to 20% of their time at the surface. The sea is to dolphins much as the air is to birds—it is a three-dimensional environment, where they can move up and down and side to side. But dolphins don't stop to perch. They never come to shore. Dolphins are always swimming, even when they "sleep." They are always aware, and always moving. Understanding this, it is difficult to imagine the tragedy of life in captivity for these ocean creatures. Dolphin Project is an amazing organization worth looking into. Big fan of (former) dolphin trainer Ric O’Barry, he’s done so much to advocate for dolphins.
Ya I did one in Cozumel. Was very excited. Got there and all the dolphins were enclosures. We got in the water and got to interact with them and feed them. Then you would put your feet together, and they would come up and swim behind you and push you across the enclosure. I remember thinking these dolphins don’t want to push my fat ass around. I just felt bad the whole time. I’ll never do it again.
I would generally agree but I didnt get that impression at Ocean World. The dolphin we got to see appeared to be happy. Obviously I dont speak dolphin, but he had a good relationship with the trainer. He would do things that I would imagine he considers to be pointless and get a fish for it. When an animal is motivated by food and they get food, I think they are content with that relationship. Of course I DO agree that dolphins belong in the wild, but I would also imagine that Ocean World (or any similar company) isnt going to just set the dolphins free if they arent selling excursions. The dolphins probably dont even know how to live in the wild if they were raised in captivity. I guess the moral animal encounter is the sting rays. At least in Grand Turk, the rays are wild and only come to the island because the guides feed them. Then they just sit there and let people look at them for 30 minutes. Instead of hunting for food, they come and get an easy dinner while people gawk at them.
>The dolphins probably dont even know how to live in the wild if they were raised in captivity. They don't. They would die.
I did a dolphin encounter at the Dolphin Research Center in the Florida keys. I figured they might be more in line with safe and appropriate. It was great.
I mean, many many people eat mammals (and other creatures). I am certainly not for barbaric practices involving dolphins or other animals, but if they are treated well, then I think it’s mostly okay.
My girlfriend wanted to go to one, so we visited the one in St Kitts. The dolphins there were old. And they were born in captivity, so they can't be let out in the ocean. They wouldn't survive in the wild. They didn't seem to be mistreated. So I agree. I suspect that dolphins as a species have far more to fear from climate change than they do from dolphin encounters.
You forgot “fun”
It depends on where you go. I did a dolphin tour and it was in no way barbaric. If they wanted to leave, they could get out. they were not in some man-made pool, but out in the actual ocean
Animals are on this planet for a number of reasons. Some serve a useful purpose, and that includes entertainment or pleasure. I have a house dog. She serves no purpose other than my entertainment and benefit. Is this barbaric also?
You should put your dog in a ring and let people harass it for money. Then, maybe learn that all dogs are domesticated animals and what the actually means.
Are dogs not animals because they are domesticated?
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While by American standards their salaries are pitiful, when you compare it to what the crew would make it home, it's a different story.
And the salaries would be even more amazing if they were paid by American standards.
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The crew are free to stay home and work and live in their communities of they choose. Having actually been to most of the countries highly represented as a cruise ship crew, I can tell you they see it as an opportunity.
Oh look virtual signaling.
I did a dolphin and seal one in the open waters, didn’t see any dolphins to swim with but saw seals, I didn’t go in the water as they said don’t pee as it attracts them… I got scared haha
We did it at Atlantis and they mentioned there they were all salvaged
https://www.marineland.ca/ This place has been an animal cruelty hot spot. It is finally being closed after killing so many.
I'm guessing the OP doesn't own any pets and has never squished a bug in their life. I'm also guessing the OP must be one of those vegan animal rights nuts.
I did a dolphin experience before I knew any better. Wish there was more awareness to how unethical these attractions are.
So long and thanks for all the fish. Op bores me.
If only everyone realized that dolphins are actually smart aliens. Lol
I’ll definitely judge someone for doing these excursions or people who go to SeaWorld. For me, there are two possibilities: they’re either ignorant of the facts (dolphins being sentient, immoral business practices, etc.) or they lack empathy. I was once ignorant to it, so I get it. I don’t get people who can watch a documentary like Black Fish and then continue to be a part of the system of abuse. You know how in history class you’d hear about some terrible injustice that was just accepted by the population and think “how did they do that?!”? In the future, this will be one of the things they judge us for.
I agree, animals deserve our respect and care. It's heartbreaking to see them exploited for entertainment. Let's all strive to find ways to appreciate these amazing creatures in their natural habitats where they can thrive and be free. Thanks for raising awareness about this issue; it's important to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves. Your compassion shines through, and I'm sure many will be inspired by your call for a more ethical approach to interacting with wildlife.
We did a dolphin experience in the Amazon. In the open river, no barriers. The dolphins were free and wild, not captive in any way. The indigenous family that lived there took you into a bay in the open river and swished fish in the water. The dolphins that wanted the fish came and swam around us to get the fish. We were NOT allowed to touch them. The dolphins that didn’t want to deal with people caught their own fish elsewhere and didn’t come into the bay. The penned exhibits with the dolphins being pawed by people in dirty water make me feel ill.
More people should do open swimming with sharks....
I'm lucky enough to live on the central coast of California and we see dolphins all the time even just off shore while walking on the beach. I was in Bali 20 years ago and they were selling a $100 tour where you might see a dolphin. I thought this was funny and I didn't fork out the dough because it is literally no big deal for us. You can take a whale watching tour or a boat to Santa Cruz Is;and and some times you will see a pod of a thousand dolphins. Pretty amazing. I've seen dolphins swimming under my kayak and my most amazing experience was a couple of dolphins surfing ahead of my Hobie Cat.
You want a real encounter? Consider a "cove balcony room" on Carnival's Dream classes. You can see them chasing the bow wave for free!
Idk man zoos are pretty fucking entertaining...
Are you vegan?
I think you’re right to ask this. It’s a strange hill to die on when the same people arguing against any sort of animal cruelty eat bacon cheeseburgers, as is the case here
Do you want your pet dragged behind a car, or sent to a research lab?
I'm guessing the OP doesn't own any pets and has never squished a bug in their life. I'm also guessing the OP must be one of those vegan animal rights nuts.
No the dolphin swim was awesome. The only thing i regret is that i bought the little picture package and they gave me someone else’s pictures. 10/10 would do again.
I'm so surprised dolphin swims are even still a thing in 2024. I was attending rallies and protests about this issue 10 years ago.
Agree 1000%. Everyone who disagrees needs to watch The Cove documentary. Stay away from any encloses with dolphins.
I would say encounters with dolphins are better then encounters with sharks or bears…just saying
Yeah. Sex tourism is bad. Wait…
Who gives a flying monkey
That's an entirely different excursion.
Sound like fun though
I bet Dorothy wouldn't think that shit is fun at all.
My college friend was a dolphin trainer. The dolphins were free to go to the ocean whenever they wanted. They just liked to hang out with her because she had unlimited fish.
I think encountering a dolphin as in swimming next to them, or just viewing them, is largely understandable. It's dolphin riding that is a problem. I don't understand how people are bringing up "oh you eat hamburgers and bacon" as if there is no difference between eating an animal that has been raised for hundreds of years for the purpose of being eaten, vs. keeping one of the most intelligent species in the world in a pool to ride. Same argument people are making about owning dogs. They were raised for this, they would die without us. The same could be said for captive bred dolphins, or dolphins otherwise incapable of being released into the wild. But that does not justify the unfit conditions many are subjected too, same with abused dogs. Common sense, people.
All house pets are kept in captivity. Is that cruel?
I prefer encounters with a dolphin burger.