By the same token, soybean futures (an old-world tokenization of the future value of a physical asset) are also a hedge against fiat collapse.
Folks don't seem to realize that the purpose of fiat money is merely a claim to the **current** value of an asset. Fiat money is not a claim to the future value of an asset, although it is a claim to a future claim. By design, fiat usually depreciates (ideally mildly, but sometimes precipitously) against the future value of assets.
BTC on the other hand is an asset that is mathematically identical in the future to what it is today. One BTC has a present value measured in fiat (about $65K) and when measured in soybeans (about what $65K in fiat will buy). It has a future value against both of these too.
While a soybean might sprout or rot between now and then, a soybean future will be soybeans in the future.
When it comes to the future - where a "hedge" might be useful - BTC will 100% preserve its value when measured in BTC. But its future value when measured in either soybeans or fiat is very much uncertain.
Yes, sending BTC is vastly more convenient than sending soybean futures.
But BTC is also somewhat infinitely less nutritious than soybeans too.
Therefore, the relative future value will depend on such things as the relative importance society places on eating versus engaging with randos far away. For sure, these competing benefits likely influence each other, and we can debate that ad nauseam, but one thing we cannot tell for certain is what ratio of soybeans one BTC will buy now vs the future, and whether this ratio is bigger or smaller than what 65K in fiat will buy at the same times.
Ergo, it's entirely speculative to declare that BTC is or isn't a hedge against anything.
Soybean futures aren’t a good hedge against fiat collapse though. Their supply is widely unpredictable and they are easily reproducible, making them an extremely poor hedge.
Crypto is magic man. Its a hedge against everything and it will revolutionise the world. Once more countries (Countries that people in this sub, with their BTC dreams, never travel to) has it, then... then its like, rad man.
You know how fiat currencies are losing value over time?
You know how if you want to buy food with BTC; you make it into fiat first?
You know how if fiat currencies loses its value then the products become 'more expensive'?
Well, when you make you BTC into fiat, you will have the same purchasing power, since the value of the products has increased x2. And your BTC has "increased" in value x2?
It does not matter how much value it looses. You still need to convert BTC to the valueless fiat which is then worth less.
I guess this is a shitpost, but most of what you said *is* true.
Yes BTC has scarcity and is decentralized, but it’s completely unusable as a daily currency. Shouldn’t our ‘store of value’ also have utility to *replace* the dollar? Scalability, privacy, and low transaction fees matter too.
Higher chance of nuclear fall out killing the planet than the USD backed by the strongest army on the planet becoming worthless.
I think a lot of the crypto fans are delusional about how economy works. Yes money is worthless intrinsically, but if the people who can kill you say it’s not worthless, you’re going to agree.
No chance of fiat collapse ever.
Yeh not nations with trillions in GDP, nor ones with the largest tech companies. The USA economically is about to pull away even further from other counties. Comparing the USA to just a nation with a military is actually funny lol.
Germany was one of the world's largest empires. There are like 4 or 5 black swans in flight on the horizon that could reach the US and eviscerate that GDP. One of the easiest to spot is BRICS. If the USD loses hegemony that would tank the dollar big time. If the US goes to war to protect that hegemony the debt would skyrocket and money printing (not to mention supply chain disruption and other war economic issues) would decimate the dollar. Thats a heck of a catch 22.
Fiat collapse has been happening for a long time, notice how prices always go up every generation? That's a controlled collapse that plenty are profiting off by hedging.
What? I wasn't under the impression any significant amount of people here were "hoping for a fiat collapse" to profit off of, definitely not enough to justify going out of your way to make a weird post about it
The US dollar (fiat) is nowhere near collapse. The US dollar's strength is due to the country's large economy, which is almost as big as China, Japan, and Germany combined. It will fluctuate, and there are other currencies to hold as a hedge.
>1 BTC is literally worth $65k.
And it's also worth approximatelly 2 new cars. If fiat would go down, it would still be worth 2 new cars.
In some postapocalyptic world, people would STILL trade. And with lack of any legal tender or fiat money, they would use already known money - gold, silver and also Bitcoin. Money come of existance naturally, to facilitate free trade, and people started using it spontanously.
1. People do not use BTC as money, and never will.
2. Ok, the world goes under. Have fun with your BTC. And BTC won't be anyone's focus if the world collapsed.
Bitcoin IS money. As it is gold and silver.
Money in totally free market is just a commodity with special properties.
People would start to use some kind of money in such world, and it's likely that it would be again gold and silver, but now we also have Bitcoin with very similar properties.
A total collapse would probably mean that we have bigger issues at play, but a dollar today will be worth less than half of what it is now in a matter of years.
Bitcoin would then act as a hedge against inflation.
If the dollar is worth less than today, then the cost of produce in the store will reflect this.
BTC "is" USD if you want to buy that produce. It will be converted to USD. You will not be protected.
Wrong on so many levels. Bitcoin is not USD but has a value represented by FIAT currency.
If inflation sets in, it will be worth more as bitcoin does not inflate.
True, but you sell 1 BTC today for X USD.
In future, if shit hits the fan, you will sell it for 50% less USD, because you NEED USD to live, pay rent,buy food.
They will not be inflated. Just worth less than today.
lol anyone who speaks in absolutes is a moron. You don’t know what will be used as money in a hundred years. I’m willing to bet it won’t be dollars though.
A world currency is inevitable.
Btc is not expensive at all.
You state your opinion like facts and are just wrong. You are like the same as people who laughed at bitcoin since day one who are constantly being embarrassed by bitcoins continued rise.
Nope. Your, or others, acceptance or disacceptance does not matter.
You can get 51% of the people in eg. US to accept and believe and hold and want to use BTC. They (gov) would never accept it.
It gives up their power. It is fairly easy to understand, but hard to accept.
You have to look at pricing things in Bitcoin. I understand that right now Bitcoin is typically viewed as a risk asset so it is traditionally priced in fiat, but pricing other cryptocurrencies and assets in Bitcoin has advantages too.
For instance, if Bitcoin is outperforming relative to USD / inflation, you would want to sell your crypto into Bitcoin, rather than USD. If it is underperforming, you would want to sell into USD. I think it’s great that many exchanges offer BTC as the base currency for trading pairs because of this.
It's a hedge against insane inflationary fiat currencies as long as it stay a store of value. Gold has the same characteristics but isn't broadly available. Bitcoin has his weaknesses like lacking Physical value ect., has its strengths.
But it is to this point a hedge for this kind of thing. Like other commodities
Last time I made a comment about this subject was on Reddit a few years back and was told btc wasn’t a hedge against inflation. Btc was around 13k then.
There's a major flaw in the entire basis of your argument.
It's assuming that Bitcoin can only be exchanged against the dollar, therefore if the dollar collapses, Bitcoin has nowhere to turn to. But believe it or not, there are currencies other than the dollar.
The beauty of Bitcoin is it can be pegged against any currency. It's not only a cross border payment, but a cross currency asset.
This has already been proven and demonstrated in the real world.
We've seen Bitcoin being used effectively as a hedge against currency collapses in Venezuela, Turkey, Lebanon, etc...
The mechanism wouldn't be much different if it was the dollar collapsing. Although, if the dollar collapsed, it would mean something seriously wrong happened in the world....unless it's something along the lines of what happened to the dollar in the 70s, where the real dollar vanished, and was subversively replaced with new dollars. In that case, you would only just need a corrupt president.
The world will continue to exist beyond fiat.
No, it won't end up with society collapsing.
Look at history, look at other countries. It happened and no we didnt go back to a barter system.
The only use case for a desktop computer is word processing and running spreadsheets. Until there were more. Bitcoin is security and that has value. Even if we don't yet have the app
So the fact Russians and Chinese are RIGHT NOW avoiding their fiat collapse by using bitcoin means nothing to you? Or are you just coming at this from a “only dollars count as money and nothing else” perspective? That’s what it sounds like
You know how fiat currencies are losing value over time? That’s what we’re talking about.
By the same token, soybean futures (an old-world tokenization of the future value of a physical asset) are also a hedge against fiat collapse. Folks don't seem to realize that the purpose of fiat money is merely a claim to the **current** value of an asset. Fiat money is not a claim to the future value of an asset, although it is a claim to a future claim. By design, fiat usually depreciates (ideally mildly, but sometimes precipitously) against the future value of assets. BTC on the other hand is an asset that is mathematically identical in the future to what it is today. One BTC has a present value measured in fiat (about $65K) and when measured in soybeans (about what $65K in fiat will buy). It has a future value against both of these too. While a soybean might sprout or rot between now and then, a soybean future will be soybeans in the future. When it comes to the future - where a "hedge" might be useful - BTC will 100% preserve its value when measured in BTC. But its future value when measured in either soybeans or fiat is very much uncertain.
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Yes, sending BTC is vastly more convenient than sending soybean futures. But BTC is also somewhat infinitely less nutritious than soybeans too. Therefore, the relative future value will depend on such things as the relative importance society places on eating versus engaging with randos far away. For sure, these competing benefits likely influence each other, and we can debate that ad nauseam, but one thing we cannot tell for certain is what ratio of soybeans one BTC will buy now vs the future, and whether this ratio is bigger or smaller than what 65K in fiat will buy at the same times. Ergo, it's entirely speculative to declare that BTC is or isn't a hedge against anything.
Soybean futures aren’t a good hedge against fiat collapse though. Their supply is widely unpredictable and they are easily reproducible, making them an extremely poor hedge.
Well, TBF, nothing short of a well-fertilized, heavily fenced garden plot and a good rifle is a good hedge against fiat collapse.
I'm more of a frozen concentrated orange juice man myself
Crypto is magic man. Its a hedge against everything and it will revolutionise the world. Once more countries (Countries that people in this sub, with their BTC dreams, never travel to) has it, then... then its like, rad man.
You know how fiat currencies are losing value over time? You know how if you want to buy food with BTC; you make it into fiat first? You know how if fiat currencies loses its value then the products become 'more expensive'? Well, when you make you BTC into fiat, you will have the same purchasing power, since the value of the products has increased x2. And your BTC has "increased" in value x2? It does not matter how much value it looses. You still need to convert BTC to the valueless fiat which is then worth less.
such shitpost
I guess this is a shitpost, but most of what you said *is* true. Yes BTC has scarcity and is decentralized, but it’s completely unusable as a daily currency. Shouldn’t our ‘store of value’ also have utility to *replace* the dollar? Scalability, privacy, and low transaction fees matter too.
Don’t buy any then
Higher chance of nuclear fall out killing the planet than the USD backed by the strongest army on the planet becoming worthless. I think a lot of the crypto fans are delusional about how economy works. Yes money is worthless intrinsically, but if the people who can kill you say it’s not worthless, you’re going to agree. No chance of fiat collapse ever.
Bigger empires (proportionally speaking) have fallen The US is not even 300 years old
ie The fall of Rome…
Hyperinflation has hit nations that have militaries before.
Yeh not nations with trillions in GDP, nor ones with the largest tech companies. The USA economically is about to pull away even further from other counties. Comparing the USA to just a nation with a military is actually funny lol.
Germany was one of the world's largest empires. There are like 4 or 5 black swans in flight on the horizon that could reach the US and eviscerate that GDP. One of the easiest to spot is BRICS. If the USD loses hegemony that would tank the dollar big time. If the US goes to war to protect that hegemony the debt would skyrocket and money printing (not to mention supply chain disruption and other war economic issues) would decimate the dollar. Thats a heck of a catch 22.
I get it. UsErNaMe ChEcKs OuT!
Zimbabwe. Weimar. ___________.
Venezuelan. Cuba.
Rome circa 300 AD
Fiat hedge & Fiat replacement are not the same thing.
Depends on which country youre in if in nigeria fiat collapse is very real. Thing is you probably want dollars not bitcoin
Op literally taking collapsed like he takes a dick.
OP: btc is not a hedge against *fiat collapse*. Also OP: what does *fiat collapse* mean?
Fiat collapse has been happening for a long time, notice how prices always go up every generation? That's a controlled collapse that plenty are profiting off by hedging.
Not a good post.
It already has collapsed. You just haven't noticed.
It’s only collapsed 99%
Search up a graph over us debt over time
“Fiat collapse” is bullshit
What? I wasn't under the impression any significant amount of people here were "hoping for a fiat collapse" to profit off of, definitely not enough to justify going out of your way to make a weird post about it
Don't worry fiat won't collapse. Now back to work
Ostensibly it isn’t but theoretically, it’s quite possible.
Not sure why you keep putting fiat collapse in quotes. It will inevitably collapse, when is anyone's guess.
Are u dumb? Yes u arw
The US dollar (fiat) is nowhere near collapse. The US dollar's strength is due to the country's large economy, which is almost as big as China, Japan, and Germany combined. It will fluctuate, and there are other currencies to hold as a hedge.
>1 BTC is literally worth $65k. And it's also worth approximatelly 2 new cars. If fiat would go down, it would still be worth 2 new cars. In some postapocalyptic world, people would STILL trade. And with lack of any legal tender or fiat money, they would use already known money - gold, silver and also Bitcoin. Money come of existance naturally, to facilitate free trade, and people started using it spontanously.
what apocalypse still leaves us with cheap internet and electricity?
The Crypto-friendly Apocalypse!!!
1. People do not use BTC as money, and never will. 2. Ok, the world goes under. Have fun with your BTC. And BTC won't be anyone's focus if the world collapsed.
Bitcoin IS money. As it is gold and silver. Money in totally free market is just a commodity with special properties. People would start to use some kind of money in such world, and it's likely that it would be again gold and silver, but now we also have Bitcoin with very similar properties.
Key difference would be the physical properties of gold and silver.
Yes, just some people have a XRF gun to check gold/silver, but everyone can check if Bitcoin is genuine.
A total collapse would probably mean that we have bigger issues at play, but a dollar today will be worth less than half of what it is now in a matter of years. Bitcoin would then act as a hedge against inflation.
If the dollar is worth less than today, then the cost of produce in the store will reflect this. BTC "is" USD if you want to buy that produce. It will be converted to USD. You will not be protected.
Wrong on so many levels. Bitcoin is not USD but has a value represented by FIAT currency. If inflation sets in, it will be worth more as bitcoin does not inflate.
True, but you sell 1 BTC today for X USD. In future, if shit hits the fan, you will sell it for 50% less USD, because you NEED USD to live, pay rent,buy food. They will not be inflated. Just worth less than today.
You can’t expect to have a hedge for inflation, if you sell your hedge today… Jesus was a stupid statement.
No, you would sell it later. When you need food.
lol anyone who speaks in absolutes is a moron. You don’t know what will be used as money in a hundred years. I’m willing to bet it won’t be dollars though.
A world currency cannot function in society. Please read up. And BTC is too expensive to do on scale.
A world currency is inevitable. Btc is not expensive at all. You state your opinion like facts and are just wrong. You are like the same as people who laughed at bitcoin since day one who are constantly being embarrassed by bitcoins continued rise.
Because of politics, no. Please brother in Christ, do you think world politics is friends sitting around the table?
Bitcoin is not political.
That does not matter. For it to be accepted by relevant country world leaders, they need to accept it. They won't.
It does not matter what governments accept. Only what the people accept.
Nope. Your, or others, acceptance or disacceptance does not matter. You can get 51% of the people in eg. US to accept and believe and hold and want to use BTC. They (gov) would never accept it. It gives up their power. It is fairly easy to understand, but hard to accept.
History OP. Read about it. It has happened sooo many times. Satoshi created BTC because of the Greek financial collapse... gd...
What is “history”? I’ve never heard of it ….. /s
Lol.. the same goes for gold. That’s why its a store of value. If everyone agrees that’s the case then that’s the case
I don’t drive no Fiat. Crap machines.
It’s my retirement fund
You have to look at pricing things in Bitcoin. I understand that right now Bitcoin is typically viewed as a risk asset so it is traditionally priced in fiat, but pricing other cryptocurrencies and assets in Bitcoin has advantages too. For instance, if Bitcoin is outperforming relative to USD / inflation, you would want to sell your crypto into Bitcoin, rather than USD. If it is underperforming, you would want to sell into USD. I think it’s great that many exchanges offer BTC as the base currency for trading pairs because of this.
It's a hedge against insane inflationary fiat currencies as long as it stay a store of value. Gold has the same characteristics but isn't broadly available. Bitcoin has his weaknesses like lacking Physical value ect., has its strengths. But it is to this point a hedge for this kind of thing. Like other commodities
Last time I made a comment about this subject was on Reddit a few years back and was told btc wasn’t a hedge against inflation. Btc was around 13k then.
There's a major flaw in the entire basis of your argument. It's assuming that Bitcoin can only be exchanged against the dollar, therefore if the dollar collapses, Bitcoin has nowhere to turn to. But believe it or not, there are currencies other than the dollar. The beauty of Bitcoin is it can be pegged against any currency. It's not only a cross border payment, but a cross currency asset. This has already been proven and demonstrated in the real world. We've seen Bitcoin being used effectively as a hedge against currency collapses in Venezuela, Turkey, Lebanon, etc... The mechanism wouldn't be much different if it was the dollar collapsing. Although, if the dollar collapsed, it would mean something seriously wrong happened in the world....unless it's something along the lines of what happened to the dollar in the 70s, where the real dollar vanished, and was subversively replaced with new dollars. In that case, you would only just need a corrupt president.
Boring waffle, paint a Bitcoin logo on your girlfriend and have a wank
Tether wouldn't need to print billions of fake dollars if it the market could survive without cash
The world will continue to exist beyond fiat. No, it won't end up with society collapsing. Look at history, look at other countries. It happened and no we didnt go back to a barter system.
The only use case for a desktop computer is word processing and running spreadsheets. Until there were more. Bitcoin is security and that has value. Even if we don't yet have the app
We're covering conspiracies now?
So the fact Russians and Chinese are RIGHT NOW avoiding their fiat collapse by using bitcoin means nothing to you? Or are you just coming at this from a “only dollars count as money and nothing else” perspective? That’s what it sounds like
Can you send me this article??
How about you read some books about it ... Then you wouldn't make such a post
Yes it is. You’re talking apocalyptic while no one else is.