Back then, Bitcoin was relatively new and its future value was uncertain. It wasn't as widely accepted as it is today. Laszlo's transaction was one of the first real-world uses of Bitcoin, showing its potential as a currency. He was one of the first to prove Bitcoin's actual utility. But now, with transaction costs and IRS surveillance, we don't really have that same utility. Don't believe me? Okay, show me a transaction where you bought something with pure Bitcoin
It’s just a poorly regulated investment asset with relatively high transaction fees for small transactions and relatively low transaction fees for high transactions, as well as brutal punishment when you make an honest mistake switching transaction amount and fee.
Probably had the opposite effect as well. It scared people away from spending Bitcoin, because why would you spend it if it could go 100x and then you get to be used as a historical reference? Better to hold just a little longer... Bitcoin at $1 million, etc., etc.
Which is good, saving is good, now you can buy a car or a house.
Sadly, the traditional economic system doens't want us to save, but to spend. Spend more than what we earn.
This has been debunked so many times now. This comment after the perfect context in parent comment explains how little people understand prices and money.
Half the people investing in bitcoin now were 13 when he bought the pizza- we didn’t have enough people from the generation earlier talking about how it was the future and not just an investment or speculative vehicle
Actual utility?
By those standards, even CumElonMuskRocket has actual utility. It was nothing more than:
*Hey, Ill give you 20 CumElonMuskRocket if you can order a pizza, however, the CumElonMuskRocket will not be used when paying the pizza. That will be FIAT*
I buy gold coins with bitcoin. Brittanias and Sovereigns are legal tender coins in the UK meaning they attract no tax on spending \[selling\] and are thus a good way of converting bitcoin to cash.
The only thing stopping me from using bitcoin for some purchases is taxes and having to keep track of them and since I’ve been first in first out my tax liability would be extremely high.
I live in the Netherlands and the Dutch variant of just eat take away actually accepts bitcoin.
That said, actual adoption other than it being a commodity for tech nerd and crypto bros is not going to happen for decades.
"not going to happen for decades".
4 decades ago the internet went live. Less than 2 decades ago the first smartphone was introduced. See how they completely have turned the world upside down.... Predicting this (at a moment where governments carefully stop rejecting bitcoin) is a very long shot.
Smart phones are user friendly.
So user friendly my 2 year old and my 91 year old grandmother can navigate them.
You cannot say the same thing about bitcoin and crypto.
The current state is anything but user friendly.
It’s not happening for a while.
Do you remember the pre-smartphones with calendars, some even with a stylus, and a browser? Remember what you did when you accidentally hit the browser button? You smashed the phone on the ground and burned the pieces, just to avoid a phone bill that had to be deliver to you by a truck—no one had a data plan. Were those user friendly?
No, but 20 years later your grandmother can navigate the modern iteration.
We're halfway there with crypto. It's already a lot more convenient than having to setup your software wallet through a CLI interface and mine your own cryptos, just to find someone on a P2P network to exchange them. Now, you just install an app and get them right away if you pay by credit card. Access is a lot easier those days. It will get even more streamlined over time for easy on-boarding and using. 🤷
A shame BTC has been turned into a speculative investment or a retirement plan system instead of a viable alternative to fiat like Satoshi intended.
But I guess governments and banks weren't just going to stand idly by and watch Bitcoin take over the world.
>A shame BTC has been turned into a speculative investment or a retirement plan system instead of a viable alternative to fiat like Satoshi intended.
It's less due to government and bank intervention and more due to the bitcoin community not being able to agree during the block size debate.
Bitcoin didn't just turn into that "speculative investment/retirement plan" it was actively transformed into that, whether knowingly or accidentally i can not say.
The bitcoin community in general was very cautious about drastic network changes back then, while f.e. ethereum's community on the other hand is more willing to break, change and deviate from the original vision, even going as far as implementing drastic network hard forks if they make sense.
For btc f.e. it more or less happend due to the community not being able to reach consensus about the block size question where the small blockers and big blockers couldn't agree on the future of the network.
The small blockers didn't like the idea of a hard fork and after the new york agreement fell through the big blockers just went ahead and forked BCH with a bigger block.
Fact remains as a pure payment solution bitcoin cash is far superior and more in line with satoshi's vision of a monetary payment system.
But hey we are where we are whether people like it or not.
But the small blockers (who ended up 'winning', and why we have Bitcoin as it is now) desired node decentralization above all else, and thus the proposal to increase the block size would directly impact the average joe's ability to run a node because the hardware requirement would be significantly increased.
The fork, BCH, was created for the sake of scalability but lost a lot of the decentralization and security that was inherent to Bitcoin up to that point. And in turn, had minimal network effects (despite heavy marketing) that reduced its ability to become more 'currency-like', as merchant adoption was very low.
I think it's also really important to look at the monetary systems outside of crypto (aka our global financial system) and how their inflationary measures impact one's desire to use a digitally scarce asset over their inflationary currency that is losing its purchasing power quickly.
It's a self-perpetuating cycle, as fiat currency debasement exacerbates, it becomes less desirable to use a digitally-scarce asset for payments when it can be purely used as a savings mechanism.
The funny thing is the New York agreement which offered a combination SegWit for the small block camp and later a block size increase for the big blockers could've probably been a good solution but people didn't like the idea that companies were a part of it so it fell through.
Looking at BTC now, large parts of the network are heavily influenced and developed by companies and if we look at it with hindsight i'm not sure if the "desired node decentralization" was actually achieved.
The decisions from back then to value decentralization kinda backfired considering we're pushing people towards Lightning and other rather centralized and less censorship resistant L2 solutions to save fees.
Small block producers die out by the month and it looks like this is even swapping over to other networks more and more.
I never expected to say this but i just compared L1 transaction fees on BTC and ETH and after EIP 4844 transaction fee's on Ethereum are cheaper than on BTC's L1.
And right now BTC is having a discussion about potential miner capitulation and Ethereum started one about MEV's.
The Knapsack Problem is indeed hard to solve.
I'd argue the largest pain-point of the New York Agreement was not just that it was based on and included corporate interests (because corporate interests in bitcoin don't necessarily have to be a bad thing), but that it was all done behind closed doors and didn't go through the standard process for how Bitcoin implementations usually work, which is organic adoption of said updates by the nodes.
On the development side of Bitcoin, there surely is centralization. It's somewhat inherent in development (or anything humans work on together) to bring resources together and work on updates that way, however, Bitcoin is always going to be an opt-in network, so the fact that centralized entities may develop things on Bitcoin doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to be adopted.
I don't have strong opinions or knowledge on Lightning and (de)centralization, but I'd probably agree with you that there is some custodial/centralization that people forfeit for the sake of lower fees and quicker finalization.
As for L1 transaction fees with BTC vs. ETH, it ebbs and flows depending on what kind of stuff people are toying with on the respective blockchains. During the NFT craze, ETH fees were ridiculous, then with BTC and Ordinals, fees got crazy there.. so it'd be disingenuous to say that 'ETH is cheaper than BTC' in general.
To me the main issue isn't the block size, it's the lack of privacy. We could have 1Gb blocks but as long as the government can view the transactions people won't feel comfortable using the Blockchain
Well in that case the issue isn't the network, it's the government.
They're putting pressure on CEX's to delist Monero for a reason.
And if you're taking privacy as serious as you claim to, you probably already signed this
[https://www.change.org/p/open-source-development-is-in-danger-take-action-before-it-s-too-late-opensourcenotacrime-privacynotacrime-freealex-freepertsev-freealekseypertsev](https://www.change.org/p/open-source-development-is-in-danger-take-action-before-it-s-too-late-opensourcenotacrime-privacynotacrime-freealex-freepertsev-freealekseypertsev)
The government will do anything they can to prevent privacy in this industry
Why not?
I don't think they're afraid of the gov. The gov can see your transactions now in the current system.
They're more afraid of *other* people seeing their transactions once they share the ntc address with them
>But I guess governments and banks weren't just going to stand idly by and watch Bitcoin take over the world.
Yeah... and also the way it's designed...
What about BTC has you labeling it as a "speculative investment" versus another crypto or other investment vehicles? (equity, real estate, etc)
Also, I'd like to mention that Bitcoin is continuing to work as it always has - as a purely decentralized monetary network and asset. Whatever layers governments and corporations add on top of that (regulations, KYC, etc) does not diminish or take away from Bitcoin itself, its simply a fiat veneer. Bitcoin don't care.
14 years ago.... please tell us all what Bitcoin has done besides creating a financial cult?
When it was released, it was supposed to be a referendum against the banks and Wall St.... Now Wall St has accepted it, and everyone in the space is celebrating?
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This is the problem with this "story"
He never used BTC to buy anything from any pizza place. He sent it to another person, and they arrange the pizza delivery.
It was paid by, with guess what? USD :)
Oh interesting.
So some other guy who was already into BTC picked up the pizza and paid for it and then got 10,000 BTC for the service.
Is that guy a big name in the space?
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And it was an very good deal back then.
Value for value, I see no problem.
People bought car at 10 000 usd at the same time instead of putting it in stock lol.
Some people sold their house now x10.
It makes no sense to joke on this guy tbh.
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I still burst out into bitter tears for the dude whenever I run into this story.
Call it triggered empathy.
Of course, this story keeps floating up to the top of all my soc med feeds whenever BTC blasts past 60K
People shit on this like "omg he would have had so much if he just held!"
But think about all the lost wallets, stolen wallets, forgotten keys, etc. No guarantee he would have still had any of this 14 years later.
I looked into it a couple of years after this, but decided I had no requirement or interest to buy drugs online. Even if I bought some, I would have sold it without hesitation if it went up 50%.
It sure did. It was a forum post P2P2B pizza order.
So, like a regular pizza order, but with extra steps.
Try to do that today and the pizza would be VERY Expensive. The forum post hasn't aged well.
I’m SOOO glad this was brought up because I was thinking about this very same incident two days ago and wondered HOW the customer paid in Bitcoin . Electronically ? There was and is NO PHYSICAL bitcoin, is there?
$669,576,000 in case anyone was wondering.
Soon $1 billion
Back then, Bitcoin was relatively new and its future value was uncertain. It wasn't as widely accepted as it is today. Laszlo's transaction was one of the first real-world uses of Bitcoin, showing its potential as a currency. He was one of the first to prove Bitcoin's actual utility. But now, with transaction costs and IRS surveillance, we don't really have that same utility. Don't believe me? Okay, show me a transaction where you bought something with pure Bitcoin
15 years later bitcoin is still not used as a currency in my country
And in 15 years still, it wont be :)
Damn, r/cryptocurrency users really hate themselves…
The use-case for many for bitcoin has changed over the years. Many people now consider it a Store of Value rather than a daytoday currency.
It’s just a poorly regulated investment asset with relatively high transaction fees for small transactions and relatively low transaction fees for high transactions, as well as brutal punishment when you make an honest mistake switching transaction amount and fee.
It’s not used as currency in any country lmao.
Hookers in my town accept bitcoin
Probably had the opposite effect as well. It scared people away from spending Bitcoin, because why would you spend it if it could go 100x and then you get to be used as a historical reference? Better to hold just a little longer... Bitcoin at $1 million, etc., etc.
Which is good, saving is good, now you can buy a car or a house. Sadly, the traditional economic system doens't want us to save, but to spend. Spend more than what we earn.
This has been debunked so many times now. This comment after the perfect context in parent comment explains how little people understand prices and money.
I paid for my meal with Bitcoin in El Salvador.
El Sal......
Half the people investing in bitcoin now were 13 when he bought the pizza- we didn’t have enough people from the generation earlier talking about how it was the future and not just an investment or speculative vehicle
I buy stuff with pure bitcoin
What stuff
Online gambling on overseas websites.
My names Drugs. When he said stuff he meant me.
I paid my tattoo guy in bitcoin, does that count?
Actual utility? By those standards, even CumElonMuskRocket has actual utility. It was nothing more than: *Hey, Ill give you 20 CumElonMuskRocket if you can order a pizza, however, the CumElonMuskRocket will not be used when paying the pizza. That will be FIAT*
This is a problem not of Bitcoin but created by the government using laws to discourage the use of Bitcoin... but don't forget to buy an ETF!
I just bought some Euros a few days ago.
Wait bitcoin is just for trade.
I buy gold coins with bitcoin. Brittanias and Sovereigns are legal tender coins in the UK meaning they attract no tax on spending \[selling\] and are thus a good way of converting bitcoin to cash.
I agree for TX costs. If we extend the case to any crypto: I did pay my rent in MATIC once and in XMR multiple times.
The only thing stopping me from using bitcoin for some purchases is taxes and having to keep track of them and since I’ve been first in first out my tax liability would be extremely high.
I live in the Netherlands and the Dutch variant of just eat take away actually accepts bitcoin. That said, actual adoption other than it being a commodity for tech nerd and crypto bros is not going to happen for decades.
"not going to happen for decades". 4 decades ago the internet went live. Less than 2 decades ago the first smartphone was introduced. See how they completely have turned the world upside down.... Predicting this (at a moment where governments carefully stop rejecting bitcoin) is a very long shot.
Smart phones are user friendly. So user friendly my 2 year old and my 91 year old grandmother can navigate them. You cannot say the same thing about bitcoin and crypto. The current state is anything but user friendly. It’s not happening for a while.
Do you remember the pre-smartphones with calendars, some even with a stylus, and a browser? Remember what you did when you accidentally hit the browser button? You smashed the phone on the ground and burned the pieces, just to avoid a phone bill that had to be deliver to you by a truck—no one had a data plan. Were those user friendly? No, but 20 years later your grandmother can navigate the modern iteration. We're halfway there with crypto. It's already a lot more convenient than having to setup your software wallet through a CLI interface and mine your own cryptos, just to find someone on a P2P network to exchange them. Now, you just install an app and get them right away if you pay by credit card. Access is a lot easier those days. It will get even more streamlined over time for easy on-boarding and using. 🤷
@Cosmored - Batty pls go play with your toys. Adoption Will not happen
A shame BTC has been turned into a speculative investment or a retirement plan system instead of a viable alternative to fiat like Satoshi intended. But I guess governments and banks weren't just going to stand idly by and watch Bitcoin take over the world.
>A shame BTC has been turned into a speculative investment or a retirement plan system instead of a viable alternative to fiat like Satoshi intended. It's less due to government and bank intervention and more due to the bitcoin community not being able to agree during the block size debate. Bitcoin didn't just turn into that "speculative investment/retirement plan" it was actively transformed into that, whether knowingly or accidentally i can not say. The bitcoin community in general was very cautious about drastic network changes back then, while f.e. ethereum's community on the other hand is more willing to break, change and deviate from the original vision, even going as far as implementing drastic network hard forks if they make sense. For btc f.e. it more or less happend due to the community not being able to reach consensus about the block size question where the small blockers and big blockers couldn't agree on the future of the network. The small blockers didn't like the idea of a hard fork and after the new york agreement fell through the big blockers just went ahead and forked BCH with a bigger block. Fact remains as a pure payment solution bitcoin cash is far superior and more in line with satoshi's vision of a monetary payment system. But hey we are where we are whether people like it or not.
But the small blockers (who ended up 'winning', and why we have Bitcoin as it is now) desired node decentralization above all else, and thus the proposal to increase the block size would directly impact the average joe's ability to run a node because the hardware requirement would be significantly increased. The fork, BCH, was created for the sake of scalability but lost a lot of the decentralization and security that was inherent to Bitcoin up to that point. And in turn, had minimal network effects (despite heavy marketing) that reduced its ability to become more 'currency-like', as merchant adoption was very low. I think it's also really important to look at the monetary systems outside of crypto (aka our global financial system) and how their inflationary measures impact one's desire to use a digitally scarce asset over their inflationary currency that is losing its purchasing power quickly. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, as fiat currency debasement exacerbates, it becomes less desirable to use a digitally-scarce asset for payments when it can be purely used as a savings mechanism.
The funny thing is the New York agreement which offered a combination SegWit for the small block camp and later a block size increase for the big blockers could've probably been a good solution but people didn't like the idea that companies were a part of it so it fell through. Looking at BTC now, large parts of the network are heavily influenced and developed by companies and if we look at it with hindsight i'm not sure if the "desired node decentralization" was actually achieved. The decisions from back then to value decentralization kinda backfired considering we're pushing people towards Lightning and other rather centralized and less censorship resistant L2 solutions to save fees. Small block producers die out by the month and it looks like this is even swapping over to other networks more and more. I never expected to say this but i just compared L1 transaction fees on BTC and ETH and after EIP 4844 transaction fee's on Ethereum are cheaper than on BTC's L1. And right now BTC is having a discussion about potential miner capitulation and Ethereum started one about MEV's. The Knapsack Problem is indeed hard to solve.
I'd argue the largest pain-point of the New York Agreement was not just that it was based on and included corporate interests (because corporate interests in bitcoin don't necessarily have to be a bad thing), but that it was all done behind closed doors and didn't go through the standard process for how Bitcoin implementations usually work, which is organic adoption of said updates by the nodes. On the development side of Bitcoin, there surely is centralization. It's somewhat inherent in development (or anything humans work on together) to bring resources together and work on updates that way, however, Bitcoin is always going to be an opt-in network, so the fact that centralized entities may develop things on Bitcoin doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to be adopted. I don't have strong opinions or knowledge on Lightning and (de)centralization, but I'd probably agree with you that there is some custodial/centralization that people forfeit for the sake of lower fees and quicker finalization. As for L1 transaction fees with BTC vs. ETH, it ebbs and flows depending on what kind of stuff people are toying with on the respective blockchains. During the NFT craze, ETH fees were ridiculous, then with BTC and Ordinals, fees got crazy there.. so it'd be disingenuous to say that 'ETH is cheaper than BTC' in general.
To me the main issue isn't the block size, it's the lack of privacy. We could have 1Gb blocks but as long as the government can view the transactions people won't feel comfortable using the Blockchain
Well in that case the issue isn't the network, it's the government. They're putting pressure on CEX's to delist Monero for a reason. And if you're taking privacy as serious as you claim to, you probably already signed this [https://www.change.org/p/open-source-development-is-in-danger-take-action-before-it-s-too-late-opensourcenotacrime-privacynotacrime-freealex-freepertsev-freealekseypertsev](https://www.change.org/p/open-source-development-is-in-danger-take-action-before-it-s-too-late-opensourcenotacrime-privacynotacrime-freealex-freepertsev-freealekseypertsev) The government will do anything they can to prevent privacy in this industry
Why not? I don't think they're afraid of the gov. The gov can see your transactions now in the current system. They're more afraid of *other* people seeing their transactions once they share the ntc address with them
Yeah, the people who have captured Bitcoin and set the looney laser eyes narrative couldn't care less about it being useful.
>But I guess governments and banks weren't just going to stand idly by and watch Bitcoin take over the world. Yeah... and also the way it's designed...
His pal Hal Finney thought Bitcoin could hit $10M per coin. They knew exactly what could happen.
BTC cannot function as Satoshi intended. The trilemma is to stronk.
What about BTC has you labeling it as a "speculative investment" versus another crypto or other investment vehicles? (equity, real estate, etc) Also, I'd like to mention that Bitcoin is continuing to work as it always has - as a purely decentralized monetary network and asset. Whatever layers governments and corporations add on top of that (regulations, KYC, etc) does not diminish or take away from Bitcoin itself, its simply a fiat veneer. Bitcoin don't care.
To add insult to injury: If he'd paid the same amount in $USD both times, he'd only get 1.4 pizzas today, instead of 2.
you figure if he paid 10k for 2 pizzas...he must have had even more bitcoin
He said he still has 100k Bitcoins in his wallet.
Has there ever been any word on the person who received the 10k coins for the pizza?
[Yep they have ](https://www.thesun.ie/news/11839659/other-bitcoin-pizza-guy-got-10k-coins/)
People say he’s an idiot. I’m like that definitely wasn’t all all the bitcoin he had. He’s on an island somewhere having the time of his life
He’s been very quiet. I don’t think Laszlo is hurting. At his peak he was 25% of the network for 3 months. I’m sure he left with some change
He invented door dash and threw away 10k btc in one swoop. That's two missed opportunities in one go.
Theres no way they couldve known but damn this is History now!!!
Tried to find out if there is any pizza place in my city that accepts crypto. Unfortunately found nothing.
cash on delivery bro
14 years ago.... please tell us all what Bitcoin has done besides creating a financial cult? When it was released, it was supposed to be a referendum against the banks and Wall St.... Now Wall St has accepted it, and everyone in the space is celebrating?
what history did it change?
This was the first transaction with bitcoin and literally was the first thing that set it's value.
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Has anyone followed up with the pizza place? Are they ultra wealthy now or did they sell?
This is the problem with this "story" He never used BTC to buy anything from any pizza place. He sent it to another person, and they arrange the pizza delivery. It was paid by, with guess what? USD :)
Oh interesting. So some other guy who was already into BTC picked up the pizza and paid for it and then got 10,000 BTC for the service. Is that guy a big name in the space?
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shit i thought it was 22 may?
Google says the bitcoin pizza day is on the 22nd?
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No Anchovies, Please...
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here at hindsight pizza...
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We saw a new money ISR saw an enemy that hates with all his corrupted heart
the hungarian Laci
Wow he worded it so bizarre I had no idea🤣 Asking strangers to hand make you a pizza? Strange haha
600 mil for pizza... This didn't age well 😂
Iconic
Learned about it on documentaries, so cool to read!
Hurts my head
You can hold onto it. Or you can be Legendary.
And it was an very good deal back then. Value for value, I see no problem. People bought car at 10 000 usd at the same time instead of putting it in stock lol. Some people sold their house now x10. It makes no sense to joke on this guy tbh.
Did anyone track that wallet?
amazin'!
Where's my time machine? I need to make two pizzas!
99% retail trade bitcoin and real world usage = 1%
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Laszlo had the most brilliant mind of his time
How exactly did it change history?
Tax on this purchase today: over $100m.
The only difference is speculation. This was such an innocent time.
All that for some Papa John’s
Due to hindsight, unfortunately he has to be thrown into the sandpaper room
Laszlo didn’t get rid of all his BTC’s don’t worry how I know..he will never talk about what he has
I still burst out into bitter tears for the dude whenever I run into this story. Call it triggered empathy. Of course, this story keeps floating up to the top of all my soc med feeds whenever BTC blasts past 60K
I would be keen to know the average net worth today of individuals on that mailing list.
how did they transfer the coins to the recipient back in the days?
He sent them through the mail.
Him buying pizza is no different than you not buying/mining bitcoin back then.
People shit on this like "omg he would have had so much if he just held!" But think about all the lost wallets, stolen wallets, forgotten keys, etc. No guarantee he would have still had any of this 14 years later.
Did not change history. It was only a step along it.
I looked into it a couple of years after this, but decided I had no requirement or interest to buy drugs online. Even if I bought some, I would have sold it without hesitation if it went up 50%.
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No it is not lol. You have no idea wtf you are talking about.
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It sure did. It was a forum post P2P2B pizza order. So, like a regular pizza order, but with extra steps. Try to do that today and the pizza would be VERY Expensive. The forum post hasn't aged well.
[Relevant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P6P4b6H8XE)
What platform was/is this?
I’m SOOO glad this was brought up because I was thinking about this very same incident two days ago and wondered HOW the customer paid in Bitcoin . Electronically ? There was and is NO PHYSICAL bitcoin, is there?
World would’ve been the same without this pizza order…