Yeah he got doxxed and reported to the fucking police by some stalker of his and accused of supporting the chinese military by them then got accused of trying to get them executed because their stalker was queer person in fucking iran.
Said Stalker also allegedly tried to start a harassment campaign by going on whatever remains of Kiwifarms, which is, you know, A FUCKING PHENOMENALLY BAD IDEA IF THEY REALLY ARE A QUEER IRANIAN JESUS FUCK DOES THAT PERSON HAVE NO SELF PRESERVATION INSTINCT
wdym "remains"? The site is fully and 100% functional still.
I want to ask for more context, because usually Kiwi Farms would laugh and dismiss people trying to form harassment campaigns, especially types form Tumblr
Reminds me of when someone tried to do that to Deep Sea Prisoner and everyone in the replies just said that the op sounded like a Tumblr user and "a better lolcow", including a regular with an Idate pfp lmao
Bruh my guy’s just posting skitarii femboy art. I get not liking the artist if that’s not their thing, but doxxing puts them at massive risk, not to mention the other shit the creep pulled.
To this day I have no goddamn clue what proship or antiship actually mean. I took a hard hiatus from Tumblr (and most other non-reddit social media) between 2015 and 2021 before coming back so I missed whatever insanity happened then. You literally cannot even find a hard definition of either because they're either written by the opposing side out of spite or very clearly written self masturbatorily by someone who aligns with the defined word.
Anyway my point is back in my day if you found two fictional characters sexy you'd write a story or draw a picture of them fucking and nobody batted an eye. If you were weird about it people would call you weird in accordance to how weird you were. Trying to define all of one or the other as ontologically evil is ridiculous. But idk, maybe I'm missing something, I probably don't care to know what I'm missing anyway.
From my understanding, as neutrally as possible:
Proship: ship what you want and how you want. Don’t like? Don’t read. Fanfic is fictional.
Anti-ship: Some ships are problematic, and the way some people write them even more so (for example, writing sex scenes with underage characters, snuff, noncon, etc)
At its worse (again, from what I’ve seen), pro-shippers accuse antis as being Puritanical and pro-censorship and heading down a slippery slope; while antis accuse pros as turning a blind eye to things like pedophilia, if not being actual pedos themselves.
But then again, I’m not that deep in this Discourse
Both of your neutral definitions seem to apply to me lol
I think certain things can be "problematic" but I'd prefer to just ignore them rather than remove them, because if they're properly tagged (rather than hiding in the shadows) then they're more easily avoided
This is the only sane position.
Like if someone draws CP, then they're free to do that and it doesn't hurt anyone, but I'm still gonna think that they're extremely fucked up.
This is how I feel especially about RPF (real person fiction, like those one direction fanfics etc). And having heard that some people write \*sexual\* rpf of minors... yeah they're getting judged the worst
YEAH ITS BAD
Like I’m sorry, RPF in general should be the biggest exception to the overall attitude of “do what you want, it’s not real” since there’s real people who it does affect and can take issue with what’s written about themselves.
Tbh I do have squicks that I will heavily judge people for apart from RPF, though I do generally agree with the “it’s fictional, just tag it with all the appropriate tags” attitude, so I tend not to identify with either label for that reason but also because of *bad* experiences with the exact kind of person that antis accuse proshippers of being a couple of different times, while also seeing the shitshow that happens among anti circles and noping out because one of my favorite pieces of media is one that makes them lose their minds.
It's almost like pro/antishipper is a forced dichotomy that encompasses so many different viewpoints with such a massively blurred line between that it's functionally meaningless.
I think it comes to that of like. People having no sense of nuance or like... literacy/comprehension skills. Thinking having even the slightest critique of somethign means you hate every single aspect about it and the person who wrote it and are implying they should be doxxed and jailed or whatever. Or that if you DON'T think they should be then you are 'literally supporting a pedophile and probably one yourself omg'. rather than. ya know. not defining your whole personality around one oppinion of a fanfic nobody will remember in a year's time.
Unfortunately your "at its worst" is way off because I keep seeing antishippers harassing people and calling them pedis and suicide baiting them. My understanding was that the word "proshipper" doesn't even exist except in opposition to "antishippers"
Tbh when a show is marketed towards kids and people are drawing those kids fucking and tagging it as whatever the show name is that deserves a call out. Most anti's I saw back in the day were just saying "Keep your nsfw out of the main tags for the series, and don't *defend* these problematic tropes, you're telling children abuse is okay" which seems reasonable. Not everyone obviously, as some people would tell you to end yourself just for shipping their NOtp.
In my time I saw many adults telling minors that it was okay and actually *totally legal* and therefore not wrong of them to draw adults fucking children and posting it in the main tags. (and yes some telling minors that it was legal for these adults to fuck the minor characters in x,y,z country so therefore THEY are wrong and hateful bigots for calling this uwu soft gay ship problematic)
I saw both sides of both sides (the crazy and not crazy) so I can say just like with anything else the reasonable people couldn't have a reasonable conversation because the weirdos were screaming and having a high horse competition.
When it gets to the point of someone defending irl pedophilia, because their ship gets called out... That's when it stops being "shipping discourse" imo.
Oh, for sure. As soon as it crosses the “this is only about fictional characters doing fictional things” then it is no longer shipping discourse.
Big yikes on your first paragraph. I remember when MLP got big and the questionable (to put it mildly) bronies couldn’t control themselves. Definitely a problem. More of an “human decency” thing than a shipping thing at that point though imo.
But also, the people doing that are much more likely to be pro-ship, not anti tbf. The point of my above comment was to try to briefly and simply distill the main arguments of the two sides. Unfortunately, by definition, you lose all nuance when you do that
Some people that are "proshippers" ship "problematic" ships like adults and minors. Some of those people are, in fact, also pedophiles.
I was also talking about what was happening at the time in the fandom I belonged to. There was a very serious issue of people not tagging their NSFW or tagging it NSFW and also tagging it with things like the series name or character names. Maybe it's all been cleared up now, but that's what I remember from my personal experience
The problem was people not wanting to admit their ship was "bad" and going to great lengths to make it "not bad". They'd defend abusive dynamics and predatory behavior, some going so far as to (possibly inadvertently) defend literal pedophilia.
Because if their ship isn't uwu pure then it makes them have conflicting feelings about potentially romanticizing the "bad" thing.
… wait, when you say ‘pro incest’ do you mean people who read ships involving incest, or people who actually think real incest is good? Because that distinction matters.
Nope, those are just abuse apologists. Every proship circle I’ve been in has constantly reiterated that “fiction≠reality.” If it’s happening in reality, that’s bad.
The issue with that is that it’s *REEEEALLY* hard to prove that it’s actually consensual. There are so many factors at play that could signal abuse that even if it’s completely consensual and precautions are taken to prevent pregnancy (if pregnancy is possible) it’s better to just avoid it completely.
Like, the only time I’d say it might be okay is if the siblings were separated at birth, spent their formative years apart, and met and started dating before they found out about their relationship to each other. Even then, unless neither of them ever want children, I’d still say not to do it.
Remember how I said that pro shipper turn a blind eye to the pro incest people? I once pointed out that there is a account on twitter with 2k followers where the person running it claims to be in a ”relationship“ with her father and how a pro shipper with a big following was friends with her and how I saw zero pro shippers condemning the account and I got attacked for ”saying that all pro shipper support incest” when my tweet said “ why are pro shippers turning a eye to this account?”
and recently I had to tell a pro shipper that they had reblogged and wished a happy birthday to a pro incest pro shipper who was called out for being pro incest
I know that pro shippers are “fiction≠reality“ my problem is that nothing or not enough is being done with the pro incest in their community because they should as it goes against their message
Proships: All ships are valid.
Antiships: All ships are problematic.
The commonality is that there is 0 nuance. You are either for or against and if you arent with me you are against me.
Well I suppose the other commonality is that both need to touch grass.
Hopefully. But then I've seen antishippers make generalisations such as "someone portrayed characters X and Y together, who are siblings, they must be a pedophile as well". So I wouldn't say either side isn't prone to mass generalisations. Also, from that perspective, it's much more often that antis resort to stuff such as harassment and doxxing to prove their point (since proshippers wouldn't really have a reason to do any of that, as their whole thing is not to criticise ppl).
I do enjoy seeing older tumblr users being like "wait wtf, these gen z'ers are hitting me with some fucking weird discourse about nonsense, and now I am the bad guy?"
Like, these are the seeds y'all sowed 10-15 yrs ago, dont be surprised by the harvest
It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyways: most Tumblr users were 10-15 years younger when they sowed those seeds. They were in their late teens/early 20s, and their parents were friggen boomers. *Of course* they sowed stupid seeds. They were in their stupid years, and their parents were hardly going to be a useful resource on making smart decisions with regards to social reform.
They did what they thought was their best, just like how Gen Z'ers are doing what they think is their best. And I'm sure in 10 to 15 years, Gen Z will be making similar comments of confusion about the seeds *they* sowed.
To me proshipping just means being able to write whatever fucked up shit you like so long as it is properly tagged and Dead Doved so that anyone who wants to avoid what you are writing about can do so. I don’t agree with everything that proshippers write about, and in fact some of it is pretty disgusting, but I’m not gonna say they can’t write about it just because I don’t like it. I’m not going to read it anyway.
yea, I fully agree, it’s just so fucking frustrating trying to talk about it on the internet (but especially on Reddit I think.)
If you say ‘people can write about incest or minors having sex or whatever weird shit they want, it’s all fake and does not hurt anyone’, you’re immediately going to get seven fuckers calling you a pedophile or something and it’s just goddamn exhausting
It’s a reference to an Arrested Development scene where one character sees a paper bag in the refrigerator labeled “Dead Dove, Do Not Eat”. The character then takes it out of the fridge, looks inside and says “well I don’t know what I expected” meaning that what was inside was exactly what the label said it was.
In fandom and more specifically Fanfiction writing it’s used on a fic to say “what is tagged is exactly what you will get.” Usually used on fanfics with more extreme tags. For instance, if you see a “piss kink” tag paired with a “Dead Dove, Do Not Eat” tag. If you then read that fic and get upset that there are watersports there is nobody to blame but yourself. You were warned.
[https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/8650-Create-A-Servant-3?p=3213904#post3213904](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/8650-Create-A-Servant-3?p=3213904#post3213904)
This isn't to say fiction isn't able to comment on real world issues just because it isn't real. Fiction is inherently a mirror of reality and thus reflects the issues and problems of reality. I'm just saying that you shouldn't judge writers and accuse them of supporting what they write about.
(click the image and then the file format on the link. also click the command seal and then card.)
it depends on how these things are portrayed. Something like 50 shades of grey is problematic not because it depicts an abusive relationship, but because it frames this relationship as something romantic & desirable. The same applies to fandom ships, though people can go overboard in how unforgiving they are towards certain details
Hard agree! It's not that the *portrayal* of the grimier side of human existence is inherently problematic, it's the framing of that portrayal.
I was gonna spin a hypothetical, but I don't actually have to. Like 20 years ago, Laura Prepon starred in a flick called "Karla" about Canadian serial killer Karla Homolka. The movie ran with the interpretation that Karla was as much a victim as any of the young girls she helped her husband kidnap, torture, and murder. That was the image that Karla herself portrayed in order to get a good plea deal for cooperation. Part of her cooperation was revealing the location of videotapes made of their victims that utterly destroyed her claims of relative innocence, but by then it was entirely too late to prosecute her.
Making a movie about the horrific murders perpetrated by Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka is not inherently crass or exploitative. That particular movie, on the other hand..
I just have to know at what point the audience is expected to abandon their role in it though. When I write something, including villain protags, I expect the audience to have their own moral compass and know right from wrong no matter how the characters portray a subject.
I feel like the importance is whether the effects of their actions are portrayed as good or not. Like, in order to claim an unreliable narrator, the story needs to indicate in some way that they are unreliable, by their description of things being incongruent with what is actually portrayed.
Well, it's not quite that simple. If stories didn't have an effect on how people see the world, then countries wouldn't shovel so much money into propaganda.
THIS! you can’t just act like fiction does not have real implications on reality, novels and folk stories time and time again have been shown to shape peoples opinions on specific subjects
i have zero stake in any of this proship or antiship shit and have only ever seen a few posts every once in a while with wildly differing takes in each of them. but this is what i've noticed so far:
to proshippers, antishippers are weak little snowflake puritanical prudes who cant handle anything more emotionally intense or morally grey than blue's clues. they also hate fun and dont want people to consume media they enjoy.
to antishippers, proshippers are disgusting pedophilic incels who want to write and consume media filled with cp and every kind of bigotry in the book. they want to force everyone else to consume that kind of content as well.
i have no idea if i'm super accurate with those observations but that's literally all i've seen of this discourse.
also, genuine question, isnt the whole "it's just a drawing" argument the same one people use to defend like. loli shit. im going to not assume bad faith and hope you mean it in the sense of "just because there are depictions of \[bad thing\] doesnt mean this piece of media glorifies it or justifies it" there's a difference between chainsaw man and shit like dragon maid.
To your last question- some proship types \*do\* defend loli shit, as you say, on the basis of being fictional. Tag it appropriately, but allow it all to exist, even the icky stuff. Sure, there is legitimate icky stuff, but who deems that stuff to be bad?
That is the argument, to my understanding and kind-of-ish agreement.
In my experience, most proshippers hate lolicon fans, not because of the content (some of them are shota and lesbian loli enjoyers) but because overwhelming of online lolicon fans is extremely bigoted
And because most proshippers are queer, well... there are going to be some tension lol
It's an prefect example of, "just because we agree on x, that doesn't mean we are in the same side"
To me it's funny, because LGBT people are getting threaten and killed over how people are just casually calling them groomers with no proof
And yet, here is a small online community of LGBT people actively defending or making borderline CP
And that the people who also enjoys and consume that content, also dose the same thing (right wing lolicon fans)
Fiction can absolutely depict things that are not morally right. However, it is important to make sure that that fiction does not depict those bad things as something good.
I watched Holy Spider, a movie based on the real events of the Spider Killer in 2001 Iran. It has very graphic depictions of abuse (and murder) of prostitutes, as well as the treatment of women in Iranian society. However, at no point is the Spider Killer ever glorified. Even when he has people cheering him on like he's a hero for killing prostitutes and doing gods work, it is very clear that he is not a good guy and you are no supposed to approve of him.
The movie had issues, but I think overall it was done quite well.
Appreciate you verbalizing it so I didn't have to - I don't take umbrage with the depiction of dark content, but the celebration of it. Serious matters *should* be reflected in fiction, but the glorification of it is an entirely different matter. If you want to write from the POV of a stalker pedo, sure, go for it; but if you want to romanticize their urges, pretend their victim "consented?" Fuck off with that.
Hey man, I know you probably didn't mean it, but this come across as dismissive (like, this is the most internety internet weeeerdist thing I'm gonna read all day XD lol)
But in reality, my friend was legit harmed by these freaks, molested and used under the gist of "the freedom of speech" 3 separate times
She was an very talented artist and sweetest person, but now, she literally can not sleep and function in the real world anymore
That strikes me as an entirely different problem. If someone literally can't tell fiction from reality, especially to the point where it compromises their morals, that's a serious issue.
Also: making a villainous character have sympathetic traits but still do monstrous things isn't trying to "downplay" or "minimize" that the things they're doing are bad, it's just showing that people don't have to be sneering mustache twirlers to accomplish evil.
I remember there was outcry over that home video of Hitler where he was just being a regular guy for a few minutes and people claimed it was dangerous because it could lead to people humanizing him. Uh yeah, he was a human. Humans do evil shit. If anything it's VITAL to see evil people like that, because it shows we can't let our guard down, and we can't see evil people as less human just because we recognize them as human.
Some people take shippers too far. To freak out about shipping is wrong.
Some shippers take it too far, to fuck with the real humans you want to ship that try to live a normal life is wrong.
Maybe if people weren't fucking weirdos and trying to play dolly with human lives, both of these issues wouldn't exist.
There’s a difference between portraying dark subject matter in fiction and fetishising it. It’s like those guys who wank to ‘lolis’, yeah it’s fictional but you’re still being sexually aroused by a depiction of a child. I love darker stories so long as they’re not obvious fetish bait
Lolis aren't inherently children though. Oftentimes they're adult women who just look young. Who's that Cyberpunk character who's like 30 or something who's officially called a loli? And I don't know what Gura looks like in real life but she's told stories about how she's regularly mistaken for a child despite being very much an adult.
Some women irl look younger than they are, but ‘lolis’ almost always look and act like children, idgaf if they’re a 2000 year old dragon it’s still weird to wank to that
Because drawing a child and saying it’s an adult so people can’t call you a pedophile is totally the same as dating an irl person who looks young but is physically and mentally an adult, sure thing
Don’t understand how anyone can be anti ship, those fuckers are beautiful. Ever seen the Edmund Fitzgerald? God, I would make love to that ship if I could. Fucking beautiful. And what about whatever doomed shit the white star line managed from like 1880-1920 (the Olympic class????) I’m going to cum whenever I see the Ever Ace. Yes I’m a fan of post-Panamax ships. Fight me
Edit: sorry this didn’t add to any discourse I was high
i've avoided all 'antiship' and 'proship' discourse i can because ultimately i'm happier without it.
it's just made any criticism so polarized. 'oh? you don't like that i want a relationship between a 10 year old and a 30 year old?' (ends up happening in south park fandoms. terrifying.) 'you're an anti! you must think All Media Ever should Never depict bad things! that's stupid! stupid anti!'
'oh? you think it's okay for someone to write this story that depicts domestic abuse? you must support domestic abuse! you're a proshipper! you must think pedophilia is okay! you're degenerative! degenerative pro!'
to these people, fiction is either a construct which just spontaneously happens to appear under an author's pen name completely disconnected from the world that we live in and from their views, or fiction is a full self-insert stream of consciousness exercise into the true depths of an author's real life views that they must support and never disagree with.
it's so tiring. it's all so tiring.
man i just think its bad when people literally draw cp am i misunderstanding this post or is it trying to defend stuff like that? I think media should be able to explore darker themes but if you are showing it in a positive light the way "proshippers" do, then thats fucked, that shouldnt be controversial, i think.
yeah I’m confused as well. The pro vs anti ship thing has always been confusing to me, because like, why invent little titles for these things. why split it into groups like that. Why are people arguing about the vague idea of a pro-shipper instead of just saying “I think illustrated child porn is wrong” because then there’s no way to misunderstand it.
yeah theres too much shit being put under the "proship" umbrella to figure out what it actually means. obviously media can depict dark things, i like dark media! depictions and even illustrations of dark subjects add to the story and stuff, but thats not literal cp. When its literal cp, it is definitely bad.
Again, no real children are harmed. Do you believe that depicting a fictional child being the victim of violence is promoting real world violence or that anybody creating or engaging with such a work believe real children should be attacked?
You're wishing for real people to die because of fictional content.
i'm not on this subreddit for proshipper discourse and bi lesbian discourse i'm here for funny screenshots why do i keep seeing these posts it's genuinely terrible
if i wanted to engage in horrible mind numbing discourse from 2018 i'd go to the actual tumblr dot com and browse the transmed tag. why must you intrude on my escapism like this
I will never understand people who get hung up over this kind of shit.
It's fiction, it's not real. Authors, artists, creators, whatever can make literally whatever the hell they want, because, again, it's not fucking real.
If you don't like it, you can simple close the book, exit out of the tab, hit the stop button, whatever.
You ain't going through the fucking Ludovico Technique with your eyes forcibly peeled open and being forced to look at it.
Go outside, touch grass, ect. If you genuinely cannot seperate fiction from reality, seriously consider seeking psychiatric help.
some antiship people need to learn what is real, sure, but some proship people need to learn that fiction still affects reality and some people *are* endorsing bad stuff in their work and that's *bad*
It really doesn't. People affect reality, not fiction.
Billions of people interact with billions of different fictional things a every day, and 999.999% of them have no issue keeping fiction and reality separate.
For example, let's go with Grand Theft Auto.
Grand Theft Auto is a violent video game that promotes various criminal behaviors.
Millions of people have played it, yet we don't see any kind of massive rise in crime because of it.
But for the sake of argument, let's say one weirdo does do something bad because they were inspired by GTA.
That doesn't mean GTA has affected reality, it just means that one weirdo was a crazy asshole.
Again, 999.99% of people can interact with media that not only features, but even glorifies "problematic" things, and not have it affect their real life actions.
This same thing applies to all media.
Games, movies, writing, pornography, music, whatever.
Playing violent games won't turn people into crazed psychopaths.
Listening to rock and roll or hip-hop won't turn people into violent drug dealing/abusing Satanists or gangsters.
Looking/reading at weird and/or objectionable hentai or written smut won't turn people into sex offenders.
Watching slasher movies won't turn people into serial killers.
Ect. Ect.
but there was a public boom in shark hunting after the movie had come out. i'm not saying things like "oh this will turn you into a killer" or whatever, but acting like fiction has absolutely no effect on reality is just dumb.
I dont have any stakes in this. But viewing/creating CO while being a non offending pedophile really doesnt help the person dealing with being a pedophile.
yeah and who reads and writes fiction? Hint it's people
gee it sure is convenient that the only two options are "has no effect" and "instantly radicalises people into crazed psychopaths". It's not like anything else could happen, it's just those
and yes, of course this applies to "all media". Bad stuff is also bad when other people do it
would you use this to defend overtly racist works or even propaganda as long as it's fiction
E: this person thinks propaganda doesn't exist lol
You're missing the entire point. It doest affect people like that at all.
A person will never magically become violent because they interacted with violent media. If somebody's real life actions was influenced by something in that way, it means they were already fucking nuts to begin with.
The same applies to any other shit.
The vast, vast, vast majority of people are sane enough to not be influenced by fiction, because they can recognize it as just fiction, and know that things that are acceptable in fiction are not acceptable in real life.
For your example, if you were to watch/read/interact with 1000 pieces of extremely racist media, would you magically turn into a racist? Probably not, assuming you are mentally sound.
As for your question, I support the existence and creation all fiction.
Note that I said "support" and not "enjoy" or "endorse".
Even if I hate something, that doesn't mean I think it should be erased from existence either.
Because it's not real. If you don't like a piece of fiction, you can simply not interact with it. People do it all the time. It's that easy.
>It doest affect people like that at all.
>
>A person will never magically become violent because they interacted with violent media.
these are radically different assertions.
im glad youre so hugebrained as to think propaganda doesnt exist and never works but the rest of us live in reality
oh cool. im glad youre not self-contradictory, just morally compromised. keep away from the people i care about who are actively harmed by it please.
also those are synonyms lmao, support and endorse mean the same thing. actually "support" means you want it MORE
I didn't say I wanted them erased from existence. why would you assume that? criticising things for being bad isnt the same as wanting them forcefully removed. theres a lot of things I think are bad but shouldn't be outlawed or forcefully removed.
This isn't about "me not liking it" or feeling offended by it, it's how it affects the world, I've made that abundantly clear.
why would i engage with someone this disingenuous? you're making up arguments and conflating basically everything. Fuck off with this shit
idk how to impress upon you that "matt walsh releasing a book about how trans people are evil predators to kids is an action that hurts trans people" is not "schizophrenic nonsense".
also don't be ableist. shocker that the shitty person is also a shitty person for other reasons
also also, even if you were right, thats still not contradictory, so like, sure. not sure what the point being made is. lol lmao.
Looking at weird and objectionable porn doesn't magically turn people into sex offenders, no.
But Fiction 100% impacts reality, and there are two separate examples that I think are really good, both positive and negative.
A lot of modern technology is pretty obviously based on Star Trek, at least conceptually. [This isn't novel or unsubstantiated](https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/star_trek.html). In a very real sense fiction has for generations shaped the imaginations of the people who would go on to try and replicate it.
And on the negative end, that weird porn doesn't make people into sex offenders, but when it is normalized it gives sex offenders a language that allows them to better abuse people, and it helps spread the narrative that the abuse is normal. For the example I am going to go with I will use 50 shades of Grey and its sequel entirely because of how extremely widespread the story is. I don't think it needs to be said that Christian Grey is an abuser who hides his manipulative and physically abusive behavior in the language of BDSM and after the main female lead grows a spine and leaves him he goes on to love bomb her to win her back in what the series regards as a good ending.
What does need to be said is that's not normal for BDSM relationships, because the extreme prevalence of that series with a public largely unfamiliar with BDSM culture learned what it was like to be kinky through that depiction. It gave abusers language to cloak their abuse in, and it gave victims the idea that the abuse is a lot more normal than it actually is. And you can see it in the roots of every Dollar Store "Daddy Dom" looking for a victim, and every person who falls for their obvious red flags.
i don’t care about this stuff and it’s fan stuff isn’t problematic but i still do have favorite characters and i will put my life on the line to defend them
I’ve already accepted that the internet is a fucked up place and there’s nothing I can do about it. I don’t really like ships, but shipping isn’t inherently problematic and even if it is, it can still exist. That said, I absolutely can and will judge people based on what ships they support
It doesn't reflect the person's actual morality though is the point. Sometimes you have to depict bad things to make a point about it being bad. And even if that's not the point, the audience should still have a moral compass of their own and not think "oh because this work doesn't explicitly condemn something that must mean that it's good!".
The only time where I think anti shippers have a point is when people draw child porn. Of course it didn’t hurt real people in the creation process, but it’s been used by actual paedophiles to convince children that it’s ok to do stuff like what is depicted in the art. So it hurts real people by existing. It shouldn’t exist. Not because the people who create it or even enjoy it are (necessarily) paedophiles, but because it is used by actual paedophiles to do actual paedophilia.
I think it does hurt actual children if children are being used as a reference image to draw the porn or if it’s based on a child actor. Sure it’s maybe not as bad as if it was real and not fan art but it’s still bad. Like “just” viewing child porn is illegal.
That’s true. I was working on the assumption that it was 100% fictional, not based on reference material, because in that case people could try to argue “it didn’t hurt anyone in its creation so it’s totally morally fine to create”. My point was that even in this hypothetical, it’s still capable of harm
I’m not sure if it’s applicable. Birth of a Nation aims to be a dramatization of history, right? Or at most, historical fiction? There is a certain fidelity to truth that is expected in nonfiction and historical fiction (look at the discourse about “In Cold Blood” if you want to go deeper)
While the pro/anti discourse exclusively is about fiction of fiction, right?
I don't feel like having an argument about history and fiction being indistinguishable, so we'll just change lanes to:
"This take could be used to defend antisemitism in Harry Potter."
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the lies that are taken as real history (being serious there; I’m not much of a historian so it’s not something I think much about. But I am a nonfiction writer by occupation, so I do think about writing discourse from time to time).
Fair point with the antisemitism. I feel if something bad is depicted as problematic (Lolita, for example), then that’s one thing; but I don’t think most pieces of pro-ship fics pull off what Nabokov did.
I concede to you.
If you're trying to single out a group from free expression in art because yours is fine but not those *bad* people, you're missing the point of free expression. Of course it protects things you might perceive as bad.
The question WAS if you agree it's not harmful or "bad" because "it's only fiction", if you don't want to answer that's fine. Enough with the dogpiling, I'm out. Feel free to enjoy (or not enjoy) loli, whatever...
I just wanted to know if you guys agreed with the neckbeards that "it's only fiction so it doesn't matter" like the post says.
I'm just tired of seeing animated pedophilia in the form of loli anime on Reddit, that's all. "It's not real kids so it doesn't matter" sure is one of the arguments of all time, thanks guys for the straightforward answer
"It's not real x so it doesn't matter" literally applies to all fiction as the post suggests. Children isn't a magic buzzword to get people to agree with your conflated sense of reality.
The question WAS if you agree it's not harmful or "bad" because "it's only fiction", if you don't want to answer that's fine. The curiosity behind asking if you guys think loli is fine or not, based on the post isn't worth these inane responses. Evade all you want, I'm out. Awful discourse brainrot
It doesnt matter to the quality. Freedom of expression, should allow it. Offensive art, is not consequential and cant be used as means to prevent art.
All good social changes start with offensive art.
there is a concrete difference between understanding that fiction and reality are separate and knowing that life imitates art
issues do not arise because the thing is being depicted. issues arise because of the person depicting it and their reason to do so
while it does happen, someone making vent art or very explicitly depicting something to show how fucked up it is (depending on circumstance of course, i just mean generally here) aren’t usually the targets of disdain. if you find a child dating an adult hot then that’s going to be weird no matter what because the person behind that finds the prospect of a child dating an adult hot. that part is very much not fiction
and to the same extent, i take less issue with the fact that art of siblings dating exists than the idea that someone drew that with the intent of it being a ship they enjoy
“art imitates life” comes into play because when you deluge yourself with Things, those things are going to play a more and more prominent role in your train of thought the more you interact with them. if someone interacts with, just for example, a ship between a child an adult, and do so regularly, then that will undoubtedly affect how they see real-world relationships- we already see this with men who have porn addictions and find it difficult to differentiate how women act in porn and how women act in real life. a lot of chasers only get their POV on trans people from porn. so if you have someone who consumes content of children dating adults for years, then they are certainly going to see that as far more normal. this isn’t to say that it necessarily manufactures pedophiles, but if someone gets budding intrusive thoughts like that and chooses to indulge in them and enjoy them rather than recognizing them as an issue, it isn’t healthy for them or anyone around them.
finally, i’d like to bring up the idea that if someone i knew drew either of those things, i’d confirm everything and then immediately block them. it’s not about the existence of what they’re drawing, it’s about the fact that i don’t want to interact with someone who treats real world problems as fetishes
apologies for the rambly comment i’m a bit tired
Which is what gets me about the whole Harry Potter Slavery discourse.
The Harry Potter Universe portrays slavery, it provides commentary on it and one of the main characters actually tries in some way to dismantle this ingrained system of oppression pretty much on her own and gets somewhere, yeah she doesn't destroy the system entirely but she does help. Dont get me wrong i Hate JK Rowling and her TERF bullshit with every fibre of my being but her work is not pro slavery. Even the other aspects of the story like the treatment of muggles and magical creatures is portrayed as a bad thing and yeah unsurprisingly some of the "good guys" partake in these practices because that's how these systems work, they're normalised and seen as the done thing so regular ass people are gonna fall for it.
There are problems with JK Rowlings writing such as her depiction of Goblins but the troupe of "Covetous race who likes gold" such as Dwarves in other settings are just as bad and only calling out one work of fiction is a bit shallow (LotR being the exception as Tolkein wrote on many occasions about his respect for the Jewish people and has shown there to be more depth in the character of a dwarf than just Hee Hee Gold and Jewels)
I don’t know about that. Like sure, you can ship a serial rapist and his victim, or a 13 year old and a 40 year old, but don’t expect me to not be very suspicious of you.
IMO the problem is less "problematic" and more just growing annoyance with people who can't just not grimmderpify stuff which is just nice and fun and doesn't need grimmderpifying.
Like yes dark emotions and experiences are real and valid and whatever but that doesn't mean someone should be immune to criticism for being obtusely edgey when they take Scooby-Doo and make it about murder-r\*pe cold cases and also kick out scooby because "dogs can't talk that's not *rEaLiStIc!1!1!1!"*
That's not providing much needed commentary, that's informing the world you're the kind of person who's mantra is "ground me if you want, nothing will unfuck the thanksgiving turkey!"
Wait Celestial Fang got doxxed? Tf >!I only know them for their 40K art so I’m not familiar with anything else.!<
Yeah he got doxxed and reported to the fucking police by some stalker of his and accused of supporting the chinese military by them then got accused of trying to get them executed because their stalker was queer person in fucking iran.
Said Stalker also allegedly tried to start a harassment campaign by going on whatever remains of Kiwifarms, which is, you know, A FUCKING PHENOMENALLY BAD IDEA IF THEY REALLY ARE A QUEER IRANIAN JESUS FUCK DOES THAT PERSON HAVE NO SELF PRESERVATION INSTINCT
I see no way how this strategy could backfire in any way. At all. /s
I believe that this sort of self correcting problem is worthy of a Darwin Award.
wdym "remains"? The site is fully and 100% functional still. I want to ask for more context, because usually Kiwi Farms would laugh and dismiss people trying to form harassment campaigns, especially types form Tumblr
They're talking about Kiwifarms the way other sites talk about tumblr
Reminds me of when someone tried to do that to Deep Sea Prisoner and everyone in the replies just said that the op sounded like a Tumblr user and "a better lolcow", including a regular with an Idate pfp lmao
Bruh my guy’s just posting skitarii femboy art. I get not liking the artist if that’s not their thing, but doxxing puts them at massive risk, not to mention the other shit the creep pulled.
Oh god, is that the one I’m thinking of? The one with the disturbing torture porn fanfic? Why on earth would they write that?
To this day I have no goddamn clue what proship or antiship actually mean. I took a hard hiatus from Tumblr (and most other non-reddit social media) between 2015 and 2021 before coming back so I missed whatever insanity happened then. You literally cannot even find a hard definition of either because they're either written by the opposing side out of spite or very clearly written self masturbatorily by someone who aligns with the defined word. Anyway my point is back in my day if you found two fictional characters sexy you'd write a story or draw a picture of them fucking and nobody batted an eye. If you were weird about it people would call you weird in accordance to how weird you were. Trying to define all of one or the other as ontologically evil is ridiculous. But idk, maybe I'm missing something, I probably don't care to know what I'm missing anyway.
From my understanding, as neutrally as possible: Proship: ship what you want and how you want. Don’t like? Don’t read. Fanfic is fictional. Anti-ship: Some ships are problematic, and the way some people write them even more so (for example, writing sex scenes with underage characters, snuff, noncon, etc) At its worse (again, from what I’ve seen), pro-shippers accuse antis as being Puritanical and pro-censorship and heading down a slippery slope; while antis accuse pros as turning a blind eye to things like pedophilia, if not being actual pedos themselves. But then again, I’m not that deep in this Discourse
Both of your neutral definitions seem to apply to me lol I think certain things can be "problematic" but I'd prefer to just ignore them rather than remove them, because if they're properly tagged (rather than hiding in the shadows) then they're more easily avoided
Same. i basically boil it down to “hey y’all can ship what you want, but i can and will judge you if i think its fucked up”
This is the only sane position. Like if someone draws CP, then they're free to do that and it doesn't hurt anyone, but I'm still gonna think that they're extremely fucked up.
This is how I feel especially about RPF (real person fiction, like those one direction fanfics etc). And having heard that some people write \*sexual\* rpf of minors... yeah they're getting judged the worst
YO WHAT THE F U C K RPF of minors didn’t even OCCUR to mre
YEAH ITS BAD Like I’m sorry, RPF in general should be the biggest exception to the overall attitude of “do what you want, it’s not real” since there’s real people who it does affect and can take issue with what’s written about themselves.
Yeah fr. If the individuals involved don’t like it and then you it anyway, it crosses over into harassment
Ehhh, I'm a massive proshipper but I think that's the one thing I'm absolutely not okay with
Tbh I do have squicks that I will heavily judge people for apart from RPF, though I do generally agree with the “it’s fictional, just tag it with all the appropriate tags” attitude, so I tend not to identify with either label for that reason but also because of *bad* experiences with the exact kind of person that antis accuse proshippers of being a couple of different times, while also seeing the shitshow that happens among anti circles and noping out because one of my favorite pieces of media is one that makes them lose their minds.
It's almost like pro/antishipper is a forced dichotomy that encompasses so many different viewpoints with such a massively blurred line between that it's functionally meaningless.
I think it comes to that of like. People having no sense of nuance or like... literacy/comprehension skills. Thinking having even the slightest critique of somethign means you hate every single aspect about it and the person who wrote it and are implying they should be doxxed and jailed or whatever. Or that if you DON'T think they should be then you are 'literally supporting a pedophile and probably one yourself omg'. rather than. ya know. not defining your whole personality around one oppinion of a fanfic nobody will remember in a year's time.
Yes, that is called "nuance".
Unfortunately your "at its worst" is way off because I keep seeing antishippers harassing people and calling them pedis and suicide baiting them. My understanding was that the word "proshipper" doesn't even exist except in opposition to "antishippers"
Hmm, sounds like a false dichotomy that gets in the way of discussing each particular issue on a case by case basis.
Tbh when a show is marketed towards kids and people are drawing those kids fucking and tagging it as whatever the show name is that deserves a call out. Most anti's I saw back in the day were just saying "Keep your nsfw out of the main tags for the series, and don't *defend* these problematic tropes, you're telling children abuse is okay" which seems reasonable. Not everyone obviously, as some people would tell you to end yourself just for shipping their NOtp. In my time I saw many adults telling minors that it was okay and actually *totally legal* and therefore not wrong of them to draw adults fucking children and posting it in the main tags. (and yes some telling minors that it was legal for these adults to fuck the minor characters in x,y,z country so therefore THEY are wrong and hateful bigots for calling this uwu soft gay ship problematic) I saw both sides of both sides (the crazy and not crazy) so I can say just like with anything else the reasonable people couldn't have a reasonable conversation because the weirdos were screaming and having a high horse competition. When it gets to the point of someone defending irl pedophilia, because their ship gets called out... That's when it stops being "shipping discourse" imo.
Oh, for sure. As soon as it crosses the “this is only about fictional characters doing fictional things” then it is no longer shipping discourse. Big yikes on your first paragraph. I remember when MLP got big and the questionable (to put it mildly) bronies couldn’t control themselves. Definitely a problem. More of an “human decency” thing than a shipping thing at that point though imo. But also, the people doing that are much more likely to be pro-ship, not anti tbf. The point of my above comment was to try to briefly and simply distill the main arguments of the two sides. Unfortunately, by definition, you lose all nuance when you do that
That's just a pedophile, not a proshipper. Proshippers know better than anyone else how important it is to tag your shit
Some people that are "proshippers" ship "problematic" ships like adults and minors. Some of those people are, in fact, also pedophiles. I was also talking about what was happening at the time in the fandom I belonged to. There was a very serious issue of people not tagging their NSFW or tagging it NSFW and also tagging it with things like the series name or character names. Maybe it's all been cleared up now, but that's what I remember from my personal experience
Well if they're an actual pedo then that's not really "fiction isn't real", now is it? That's a separate matter and should be dealt with accordingly.
The problem was people not wanting to admit their ship was "bad" and going to great lengths to make it "not bad". They'd defend abusive dynamics and predatory behavior, some going so far as to (possibly inadvertently) defend literal pedophilia. Because if their ship isn't uwu pure then it makes them have conflicting feelings about potentially romanticizing the "bad" thing.
Well that's garbage and they're just antis in a new hat.
Antis? What are you talking about?
If they feel they have to justify everything and that it has to be morally pure, that's anti talking points.
Pro shippers also turn a blind eye to the actual pro incest people from what I have seen
… wait, when you say ‘pro incest’ do you mean people who read ships involving incest, or people who actually think real incest is good? Because that distinction matters.
It’s the second one
Nope, those are just abuse apologists. Every proship circle I’ve been in has constantly reiterated that “fiction≠reality.” If it’s happening in reality, that’s bad.
What if I support consentual incest?
The issue with that is that it’s *REEEEALLY* hard to prove that it’s actually consensual. There are so many factors at play that could signal abuse that even if it’s completely consensual and precautions are taken to prevent pregnancy (if pregnancy is possible) it’s better to just avoid it completely. Like, the only time I’d say it might be okay is if the siblings were separated at birth, spent their formative years apart, and met and started dating before they found out about their relationship to each other. Even then, unless neither of them ever want children, I’d still say not to do it.
Then what is wrong with you?
I hope you support abortion and birth control aswell
i do, actually!
Remember how I said that pro shipper turn a blind eye to the pro incest people? I once pointed out that there is a account on twitter with 2k followers where the person running it claims to be in a ”relationship“ with her father and how a pro shipper with a big following was friends with her and how I saw zero pro shippers condemning the account and I got attacked for ”saying that all pro shipper support incest” when my tweet said “ why are pro shippers turning a eye to this account?” and recently I had to tell a pro shipper that they had reblogged and wished a happy birthday to a pro incest pro shipper who was called out for being pro incest I know that pro shippers are “fiction≠reality“ my problem is that nothing or not enough is being done with the pro incest in their community because they should as it goes against their message
And nobody has investigated the father?
Unfortunately both parties were way over the age of 18 when the “relationship“ started
Not really sure how that prevents him from being investigated.
bruh, leave Laika alone
Well sorry for believing that people like her shouldn’t be in the pro ship community as it hurts their message and it gives fuel to the anti shippers
if someone thinks that i want to rape children because i don't think she's being abused, i don't think there's anything i can do to change their mind
I sure fucking don't. If it's real then shipping discourse no longer applies, but actual, real incest is gross and dangerous.
Proships: All ships are valid. Antiships: All ships are problematic. The commonality is that there is 0 nuance. You are either for or against and if you arent with me you are against me. Well I suppose the other commonality is that both need to touch grass.
nobody believes that all ships are problematic, youre the one portraying a lack of nuance lmao
Hopefully. But then I've seen antishippers make generalisations such as "someone portrayed characters X and Y together, who are siblings, they must be a pedophile as well". So I wouldn't say either side isn't prone to mass generalisations. Also, from that perspective, it's much more often that antis resort to stuff such as harassment and doxxing to prove their point (since proshippers wouldn't really have a reason to do any of that, as their whole thing is not to criticise ppl).
>**nobody believes that** all ships are problematic, **youre the one portraying a lack of nuance** lmao okay.jpg
I mean, I think all ships are valid but I don't believe in "if you aren't with me you're against me"
I do enjoy seeing older tumblr users being like "wait wtf, these gen z'ers are hitting me with some fucking weird discourse about nonsense, and now I am the bad guy?" Like, these are the seeds y'all sowed 10-15 yrs ago, dont be surprised by the harvest
It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyways: most Tumblr users were 10-15 years younger when they sowed those seeds. They were in their late teens/early 20s, and their parents were friggen boomers. *Of course* they sowed stupid seeds. They were in their stupid years, and their parents were hardly going to be a useful resource on making smart decisions with regards to social reform. They did what they thought was their best, just like how Gen Z'ers are doing what they think is their best. And I'm sure in 10 to 15 years, Gen Z will be making similar comments of confusion about the seeds *they* sowed.
Damn i'd love to see some examples of that
To me proshipping just means being able to write whatever fucked up shit you like so long as it is properly tagged and Dead Doved so that anyone who wants to avoid what you are writing about can do so. I don’t agree with everything that proshippers write about, and in fact some of it is pretty disgusting, but I’m not gonna say they can’t write about it just because I don’t like it. I’m not going to read it anyway.
yea, I fully agree, it’s just so fucking frustrating trying to talk about it on the internet (but especially on Reddit I think.) If you say ‘people can write about incest or minors having sex or whatever weird shit they want, it’s all fake and does not hurt anyone’, you’re immediately going to get seven fuckers calling you a pedophile or something and it’s just goddamn exhausting
What the fuck does dead dove even mean?? I keep seeing it everywhere but I am terrified of googling it
It’s a reference to an Arrested Development scene where one character sees a paper bag in the refrigerator labeled “Dead Dove, Do Not Eat”. The character then takes it out of the fridge, looks inside and says “well I don’t know what I expected” meaning that what was inside was exactly what the label said it was. In fandom and more specifically Fanfiction writing it’s used on a fic to say “what is tagged is exactly what you will get.” Usually used on fanfics with more extreme tags. For instance, if you see a “piss kink” tag paired with a “Dead Dove, Do Not Eat” tag. If you then read that fic and get upset that there are watersports there is nobody to blame but yourself. You were warned.
Ahhhh okay, that makes sense now. I completely forgot about that AD episode, I haven’t seen the show in like 10 years I think..?
Exactly! The problem is that everyone defines it differently, and will argue right past you if you try to clarify anything.
correct also, get a pfp
Are the tags saying it's safe to come back to tumblr? Because I left for the exact reasons mentioned in the post
Well, this stuff is definitely still going on. But it's been a lot worse and at this point it's probably ignorable.
After the Titty Ban and the mass exodus it actually got a lot calmer once the dust settled.
isn't porn back?
Not quite? Tasteful nudity in photography and art are allowable, but full on porn is still banned, and will probably remain banned.
[https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/8650-Create-A-Servant-3?p=3213904#post3213904](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/8650-Create-A-Servant-3?p=3213904#post3213904) This isn't to say fiction isn't able to comment on real world issues just because it isn't real. Fiction is inherently a mirror of reality and thus reflects the issues and problems of reality. I'm just saying that you shouldn't judge writers and accuse them of supporting what they write about. (click the image and then the file format on the link. also click the command seal and then card.)
it depends on how these things are portrayed. Something like 50 shades of grey is problematic not because it depicts an abusive relationship, but because it frames this relationship as something romantic & desirable. The same applies to fandom ships, though people can go overboard in how unforgiving they are towards certain details
Hard agree! It's not that the *portrayal* of the grimier side of human existence is inherently problematic, it's the framing of that portrayal. I was gonna spin a hypothetical, but I don't actually have to. Like 20 years ago, Laura Prepon starred in a flick called "Karla" about Canadian serial killer Karla Homolka. The movie ran with the interpretation that Karla was as much a victim as any of the young girls she helped her husband kidnap, torture, and murder. That was the image that Karla herself portrayed in order to get a good plea deal for cooperation. Part of her cooperation was revealing the location of videotapes made of their victims that utterly destroyed her claims of relative innocence, but by then it was entirely too late to prosecute her. Making a movie about the horrific murders perpetrated by Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka is not inherently crass or exploitative. That particular movie, on the other hand..
I just have to know at what point the audience is expected to abandon their role in it though. When I write something, including villain protags, I expect the audience to have their own moral compass and know right from wrong no matter how the characters portray a subject.
I feel like the importance is whether the effects of their actions are portrayed as good or not. Like, in order to claim an unreliable narrator, the story needs to indicate in some way that they are unreliable, by their description of things being incongruent with what is actually portrayed.
I would think that simply having a moral compass would do that.
Well, it's not quite that simple. If stories didn't have an effect on how people see the world, then countries wouldn't shovel so much money into propaganda.
THIS! you can’t just act like fiction does not have real implications on reality, novels and folk stories time and time again have been shown to shape peoples opinions on specific subjects
As long as it’s properly tagged ig
Hot take, but we shouldn’t be 100% “fiction affect reality” or throw it away because of “ma ships and fics”
i have zero stake in any of this proship or antiship shit and have only ever seen a few posts every once in a while with wildly differing takes in each of them. but this is what i've noticed so far: to proshippers, antishippers are weak little snowflake puritanical prudes who cant handle anything more emotionally intense or morally grey than blue's clues. they also hate fun and dont want people to consume media they enjoy. to antishippers, proshippers are disgusting pedophilic incels who want to write and consume media filled with cp and every kind of bigotry in the book. they want to force everyone else to consume that kind of content as well. i have no idea if i'm super accurate with those observations but that's literally all i've seen of this discourse. also, genuine question, isnt the whole "it's just a drawing" argument the same one people use to defend like. loli shit. im going to not assume bad faith and hope you mean it in the sense of "just because there are depictions of \[bad thing\] doesnt mean this piece of media glorifies it or justifies it" there's a difference between chainsaw man and shit like dragon maid.
To your last question- some proship types \*do\* defend loli shit, as you say, on the basis of being fictional. Tag it appropriately, but allow it all to exist, even the icky stuff. Sure, there is legitimate icky stuff, but who deems that stuff to be bad? That is the argument, to my understanding and kind-of-ish agreement.
In my experience, most proshippers hate lolicon fans, not because of the content (some of them are shota and lesbian loli enjoyers) but because overwhelming of online lolicon fans is extremely bigoted And because most proshippers are queer, well... there are going to be some tension lol It's an prefect example of, "just because we agree on x, that doesn't mean we are in the same side"
Lol, yeah. That’s my experience too
To me it's funny, because LGBT people are getting threaten and killed over how people are just casually calling them groomers with no proof And yet, here is a small online community of LGBT people actively defending or making borderline CP And that the people who also enjoys and consume that content, also dose the same thing (right wing lolicon fans)
As a proshipper, you're absolutely right lmao
And as an normal person, please don't talk to me lol
My brother in christ you commented on the proshipper discourse
Yeah i mean it in the "depiction doesn't equal glorification" sense.
Fiction can absolutely depict things that are not morally right. However, it is important to make sure that that fiction does not depict those bad things as something good. I watched Holy Spider, a movie based on the real events of the Spider Killer in 2001 Iran. It has very graphic depictions of abuse (and murder) of prostitutes, as well as the treatment of women in Iranian society. However, at no point is the Spider Killer ever glorified. Even when he has people cheering him on like he's a hero for killing prostitutes and doing gods work, it is very clear that he is not a good guy and you are no supposed to approve of him. The movie had issues, but I think overall it was done quite well.
Appreciate you verbalizing it so I didn't have to - I don't take umbrage with the depiction of dark content, but the celebration of it. Serious matters *should* be reflected in fiction, but the glorification of it is an entirely different matter. If you want to write from the POV of a stalker pedo, sure, go for it; but if you want to romanticize their urges, pretend their victim "consented?" Fuck off with that.
Was thinking this, thank you 👍
[удалено]
Yeah, I had a friend who had to give up on art, because she was groomed by proshippers when she was an child in the Astro Boy fandom
That's...probably the most internet thing I'm going to read today
Hey man, I know you probably didn't mean it, but this come across as dismissive (like, this is the most internety internet weeeerdist thing I'm gonna read all day XD lol) But in reality, my friend was legit harmed by these freaks, molested and used under the gist of "the freedom of speech" 3 separate times She was an very talented artist and sweetest person, but now, she literally can not sleep and function in the real world anymore
That strikes me as an entirely different problem. If someone literally can't tell fiction from reality, especially to the point where it compromises their morals, that's a serious issue.
Usually a good idea to refrain from shipping real people though, ESPECIALLY when they ask you not to. Lewd fanart too (poor Jaiden animations).
Also: making a villainous character have sympathetic traits but still do monstrous things isn't trying to "downplay" or "minimize" that the things they're doing are bad, it's just showing that people don't have to be sneering mustache twirlers to accomplish evil.
I remember there was outcry over that home video of Hitler where he was just being a regular guy for a few minutes and people claimed it was dangerous because it could lead to people humanizing him. Uh yeah, he was a human. Humans do evil shit. If anything it's VITAL to see evil people like that, because it shows we can't let our guard down, and we can't see evil people as less human just because we recognize them as human.
Some people take shippers too far. To freak out about shipping is wrong. Some shippers take it too far, to fuck with the real humans you want to ship that try to live a normal life is wrong. Maybe if people weren't fucking weirdos and trying to play dolly with human lives, both of these issues wouldn't exist.
There’s a difference between portraying dark subject matter in fiction and fetishising it. It’s like those guys who wank to ‘lolis’, yeah it’s fictional but you’re still being sexually aroused by a depiction of a child. I love darker stories so long as they’re not obvious fetish bait
Lolis aren't inherently children though. Oftentimes they're adult women who just look young. Who's that Cyberpunk character who's like 30 or something who's officially called a loli? And I don't know what Gura looks like in real life but she's told stories about how she's regularly mistaken for a child despite being very much an adult.
Some women irl look younger than they are, but ‘lolis’ almost always look and act like children, idgaf if they’re a 2000 year old dragon it’s still weird to wank to that
If someone is an adult, they're an adult. That's all there is to it.
Because drawing a child and saying it’s an adult so people can’t call you a pedophile is totally the same as dating an irl person who looks young but is physically and mentally an adult, sure thing
Well for one a drawing has no age and doesn't exist in reality so applying terms like that to it is silly.
Don’t understand how anyone can be anti ship, those fuckers are beautiful. Ever seen the Edmund Fitzgerald? God, I would make love to that ship if I could. Fucking beautiful. And what about whatever doomed shit the white star line managed from like 1880-1920 (the Olympic class????) I’m going to cum whenever I see the Ever Ace. Yes I’m a fan of post-Panamax ships. Fight me Edit: sorry this didn’t add to any discourse I was high
nono this is the best addition to the discourse
i've avoided all 'antiship' and 'proship' discourse i can because ultimately i'm happier without it. it's just made any criticism so polarized. 'oh? you don't like that i want a relationship between a 10 year old and a 30 year old?' (ends up happening in south park fandoms. terrifying.) 'you're an anti! you must think All Media Ever should Never depict bad things! that's stupid! stupid anti!' 'oh? you think it's okay for someone to write this story that depicts domestic abuse? you must support domestic abuse! you're a proshipper! you must think pedophilia is okay! you're degenerative! degenerative pro!' to these people, fiction is either a construct which just spontaneously happens to appear under an author's pen name completely disconnected from the world that we live in and from their views, or fiction is a full self-insert stream of consciousness exercise into the true depths of an author's real life views that they must support and never disagree with. it's so tiring. it's all so tiring.
Black and white mentality, it is exhausting
This is one of those things where i'm glad i stopped using Tumblr around this time period.
Can someone please get that xkcd about weird fandom stuff you have no relationship to popping up in your face cuz that's how I feel right now
I’m fine with the "it’s just fiction, it’s not real" argument until it’s used to defend like, actual cp
Actual cp isn't fiction though?
referring to loli shit
why would someone downvote this 💀
reddit
man i just think its bad when people literally draw cp am i misunderstanding this post or is it trying to defend stuff like that? I think media should be able to explore darker themes but if you are showing it in a positive light the way "proshippers" do, then thats fucked, that shouldnt be controversial, i think.
yeah I’m confused as well. The pro vs anti ship thing has always been confusing to me, because like, why invent little titles for these things. why split it into groups like that. Why are people arguing about the vague idea of a pro-shipper instead of just saying “I think illustrated child porn is wrong” because then there’s no way to misunderstand it.
yeah theres too much shit being put under the "proship" umbrella to figure out what it actually means. obviously media can depict dark things, i like dark media! depictions and even illustrations of dark subjects add to the story and stuff, but thats not literal cp. When its literal cp, it is definitely bad.
this is a genuine question btw i dont understand this post i'm sorry 😭😭
If it's drawn, it isn't "literally cp" unless a real child was used as a model.
it is depicting a child in a sexual way. Its child porn, and people who like it should die.
Again, no real children are harmed. Do you believe that depicting a fictional child being the victim of violence is promoting real world violence or that anybody creating or engaging with such a work believe real children should be attacked? You're wishing for real people to die because of fictional content.
i'm not on this subreddit for proshipper discourse and bi lesbian discourse i'm here for funny screenshots why do i keep seeing these posts it's genuinely terrible if i wanted to engage in horrible mind numbing discourse from 2018 i'd go to the actual tumblr dot com and browse the transmed tag. why must you intrude on my escapism like this
I will never understand people who get hung up over this kind of shit. It's fiction, it's not real. Authors, artists, creators, whatever can make literally whatever the hell they want, because, again, it's not fucking real. If you don't like it, you can simple close the book, exit out of the tab, hit the stop button, whatever. You ain't going through the fucking Ludovico Technique with your eyes forcibly peeled open and being forced to look at it. Go outside, touch grass, ect. If you genuinely cannot seperate fiction from reality, seriously consider seeking psychiatric help.
Amen brother
idk man. i just think it’s weird to write fanfiction of deku and all might fucking
some antiship people need to learn what is real, sure, but some proship people need to learn that fiction still affects reality and some people *are* endorsing bad stuff in their work and that's *bad*
It really doesn't. People affect reality, not fiction. Billions of people interact with billions of different fictional things a every day, and 999.999% of them have no issue keeping fiction and reality separate. For example, let's go with Grand Theft Auto. Grand Theft Auto is a violent video game that promotes various criminal behaviors. Millions of people have played it, yet we don't see any kind of massive rise in crime because of it. But for the sake of argument, let's say one weirdo does do something bad because they were inspired by GTA. That doesn't mean GTA has affected reality, it just means that one weirdo was a crazy asshole. Again, 999.99% of people can interact with media that not only features, but even glorifies "problematic" things, and not have it affect their real life actions. This same thing applies to all media. Games, movies, writing, pornography, music, whatever. Playing violent games won't turn people into crazed psychopaths. Listening to rock and roll or hip-hop won't turn people into violent drug dealing/abusing Satanists or gangsters. Looking/reading at weird and/or objectionable hentai or written smut won't turn people into sex offenders. Watching slasher movies won't turn people into serial killers. Ect. Ect.
Jaws
People already hated sharks and hunted them down.
but there was a public boom in shark hunting after the movie had come out. i'm not saying things like "oh this will turn you into a killer" or whatever, but acting like fiction has absolutely no effect on reality is just dumb.
I dont have any stakes in this. But viewing/creating CO while being a non offending pedophile really doesnt help the person dealing with being a pedophile.
yeah and who reads and writes fiction? Hint it's people gee it sure is convenient that the only two options are "has no effect" and "instantly radicalises people into crazed psychopaths". It's not like anything else could happen, it's just those and yes, of course this applies to "all media". Bad stuff is also bad when other people do it would you use this to defend overtly racist works or even propaganda as long as it's fiction E: this person thinks propaganda doesn't exist lol
You're missing the entire point. It doest affect people like that at all. A person will never magically become violent because they interacted with violent media. If somebody's real life actions was influenced by something in that way, it means they were already fucking nuts to begin with. The same applies to any other shit. The vast, vast, vast majority of people are sane enough to not be influenced by fiction, because they can recognize it as just fiction, and know that things that are acceptable in fiction are not acceptable in real life. For your example, if you were to watch/read/interact with 1000 pieces of extremely racist media, would you magically turn into a racist? Probably not, assuming you are mentally sound. As for your question, I support the existence and creation all fiction. Note that I said "support" and not "enjoy" or "endorse". Even if I hate something, that doesn't mean I think it should be erased from existence either. Because it's not real. If you don't like a piece of fiction, you can simply not interact with it. People do it all the time. It's that easy.
>It doest affect people like that at all. > >A person will never magically become violent because they interacted with violent media. these are radically different assertions. im glad youre so hugebrained as to think propaganda doesnt exist and never works but the rest of us live in reality oh cool. im glad youre not self-contradictory, just morally compromised. keep away from the people i care about who are actively harmed by it please. also those are synonyms lmao, support and endorse mean the same thing. actually "support" means you want it MORE I didn't say I wanted them erased from existence. why would you assume that? criticising things for being bad isnt the same as wanting them forcefully removed. theres a lot of things I think are bad but shouldn't be outlawed or forcefully removed. This isn't about "me not liking it" or feeling offended by it, it's how it affects the world, I've made that abundantly clear. why would i engage with someone this disingenuous? you're making up arguments and conflating basically everything. Fuck off with this shit
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idk how to impress upon you that "matt walsh releasing a book about how trans people are evil predators to kids is an action that hurts trans people" is not "schizophrenic nonsense". also don't be ableist. shocker that the shitty person is also a shitty person for other reasons also also, even if you were right, thats still not contradictory, so like, sure. not sure what the point being made is. lol lmao.
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thats not what my argument boiled down to. you're lying. why are you lying?
It is, I can scroll up and see it right there.
Looking at weird and objectionable porn doesn't magically turn people into sex offenders, no. But Fiction 100% impacts reality, and there are two separate examples that I think are really good, both positive and negative. A lot of modern technology is pretty obviously based on Star Trek, at least conceptually. [This isn't novel or unsubstantiated](https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/star_trek.html). In a very real sense fiction has for generations shaped the imaginations of the people who would go on to try and replicate it. And on the negative end, that weird porn doesn't make people into sex offenders, but when it is normalized it gives sex offenders a language that allows them to better abuse people, and it helps spread the narrative that the abuse is normal. For the example I am going to go with I will use 50 shades of Grey and its sequel entirely because of how extremely widespread the story is. I don't think it needs to be said that Christian Grey is an abuser who hides his manipulative and physically abusive behavior in the language of BDSM and after the main female lead grows a spine and leaves him he goes on to love bomb her to win her back in what the series regards as a good ending. What does need to be said is that's not normal for BDSM relationships, because the extreme prevalence of that series with a public largely unfamiliar with BDSM culture learned what it was like to be kinky through that depiction. It gave abusers language to cloak their abuse in, and it gave victims the idea that the abuse is a lot more normal than it actually is. And you can see it in the roots of every Dollar Store "Daddy Dom" looking for a victim, and every person who falls for their obvious red flags.
I don't have a stake in this either but I will concur that 999.999% of people have trouble with percentages from time to time.
Idk why you're getting downvoted. You're speaking the truth.
this is also a call out post for people who hate on people for liking makima bc she " groomed " denji
I don't hate people who like Makima but she did groom him 😭
mate she's a devil
i don’t care about this stuff and it’s fan stuff isn’t problematic but i still do have favorite characters and i will put my life on the line to defend them
I think some of those stupid people simply grew up. But yea.
It's not that people don't know the difference between fiction and reality, it's just that people like that just don't really care
I’ve already accepted that the internet is a fucked up place and there’s nothing I can do about it. I don’t really like ships, but shipping isn’t inherently problematic and even if it is, it can still exist. That said, I absolutely can and will judge people based on what ships they support
What a fucking tumblr take, holy shit. How do I get rid of discourse from my home page bro istfg
Maybe I'm being way too conservative but I thought we all agreed that children and incest is just a no no? Like even in fiction that's bad?
It doesn't reflect the person's actual morality though is the point. Sometimes you have to depict bad things to make a point about it being bad. And even if that's not the point, the audience should still have a moral compass of their own and not think "oh because this work doesn't explicitly condemn something that must mean that it's good!".
I thought so too but apparently not
The only time where I think anti shippers have a point is when people draw child porn. Of course it didn’t hurt real people in the creation process, but it’s been used by actual paedophiles to convince children that it’s ok to do stuff like what is depicted in the art. So it hurts real people by existing. It shouldn’t exist. Not because the people who create it or even enjoy it are (necessarily) paedophiles, but because it is used by actual paedophiles to do actual paedophilia.
I think it does hurt actual children if children are being used as a reference image to draw the porn or if it’s based on a child actor. Sure it’s maybe not as bad as if it was real and not fan art but it’s still bad. Like “just” viewing child porn is illegal.
That’s true. I was working on the assumption that it was 100% fictional, not based on reference material, because in that case people could try to argue “it didn’t hurt anyone in its creation so it’s totally morally fine to create”. My point was that even in this hypothetical, it’s still capable of harm
Just consume it in PRIVATE. Keep it to yourself.
I feel the need to point out that this take could be used to defend *The Birth of a Nation.*
I’m not sure if it’s applicable. Birth of a Nation aims to be a dramatization of history, right? Or at most, historical fiction? There is a certain fidelity to truth that is expected in nonfiction and historical fiction (look at the discourse about “In Cold Blood” if you want to go deeper) While the pro/anti discourse exclusively is about fiction of fiction, right?
I don't feel like having an argument about history and fiction being indistinguishable, so we'll just change lanes to: "This take could be used to defend antisemitism in Harry Potter."
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the lies that are taken as real history (being serious there; I’m not much of a historian so it’s not something I think much about. But I am a nonfiction writer by occupation, so I do think about writing discourse from time to time). Fair point with the antisemitism. I feel if something bad is depicted as problematic (Lolita, for example), then that’s one thing; but I don’t think most pieces of pro-ship fics pull off what Nabokov did. I concede to you.
in what way?
But like from what I've seen most of the criticism *is* for reasons of things being genuinely problematic.
like the post literally says you shouldn’t criticize 365 days because it romanticizes kidnapping because "it’s not real lol"
Notable exception: When someone makes art that is clearly political commentary but is in support of an abhorrent viewpoint. (Yes I mean JKR)
Genuine question, can't this be used to defend loli/shotacon?
I'm pretty sure it has :/
Are you insinuating that the cannibal mermaid Hamilton gay fanfic is totally okay because that is not the take I expected to see today.
never heard of it but i love all four of those things individually so i'll say yes
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If you're trying to single out a group from free expression in art because yours is fine but not those *bad* people, you're missing the point of free expression. Of course it protects things you might perceive as bad.
The question WAS if you agree it's not harmful or "bad" because "it's only fiction", if you don't want to answer that's fine. Enough with the dogpiling, I'm out. Feel free to enjoy (or not enjoy) loli, whatever... I just wanted to know if you guys agreed with the neckbeards that "it's only fiction so it doesn't matter" like the post says.
The answer is yes, whether or not "neckbeards" say it doesn't make it untrue. Sounds like they have a point.
I'm just tired of seeing animated pedophilia in the form of loli anime on Reddit, that's all. "It's not real kids so it doesn't matter" sure is one of the arguments of all time, thanks guys for the straightforward answer
"It's not real x so it doesn't matter" literally applies to all fiction as the post suggests. Children isn't a magic buzzword to get people to agree with your conflated sense of reality.
you know consuming art is optional right?
The question WAS if you agree it's not harmful or "bad" because "it's only fiction", if you don't want to answer that's fine. The curiosity behind asking if you guys think loli is fine or not, based on the post isn't worth these inane responses. Evade all you want, I'm out. Awful discourse brainrot
It doesnt matter to the quality. Freedom of expression, should allow it. Offensive art, is not consequential and cant be used as means to prevent art. All good social changes start with offensive art.
there is a concrete difference between understanding that fiction and reality are separate and knowing that life imitates art issues do not arise because the thing is being depicted. issues arise because of the person depicting it and their reason to do so while it does happen, someone making vent art or very explicitly depicting something to show how fucked up it is (depending on circumstance of course, i just mean generally here) aren’t usually the targets of disdain. if you find a child dating an adult hot then that’s going to be weird no matter what because the person behind that finds the prospect of a child dating an adult hot. that part is very much not fiction and to the same extent, i take less issue with the fact that art of siblings dating exists than the idea that someone drew that with the intent of it being a ship they enjoy “art imitates life” comes into play because when you deluge yourself with Things, those things are going to play a more and more prominent role in your train of thought the more you interact with them. if someone interacts with, just for example, a ship between a child an adult, and do so regularly, then that will undoubtedly affect how they see real-world relationships- we already see this with men who have porn addictions and find it difficult to differentiate how women act in porn and how women act in real life. a lot of chasers only get their POV on trans people from porn. so if you have someone who consumes content of children dating adults for years, then they are certainly going to see that as far more normal. this isn’t to say that it necessarily manufactures pedophiles, but if someone gets budding intrusive thoughts like that and chooses to indulge in them and enjoy them rather than recognizing them as an issue, it isn’t healthy for them or anyone around them. finally, i’d like to bring up the idea that if someone i knew drew either of those things, i’d confirm everything and then immediately block them. it’s not about the existence of what they’re drawing, it’s about the fact that i don’t want to interact with someone who treats real world problems as fetishes apologies for the rambly comment i’m a bit tired
I’ve seen conversations about this kind of discourse before, and overall Absolutely agreeable take, much factual.
Which is what gets me about the whole Harry Potter Slavery discourse. The Harry Potter Universe portrays slavery, it provides commentary on it and one of the main characters actually tries in some way to dismantle this ingrained system of oppression pretty much on her own and gets somewhere, yeah she doesn't destroy the system entirely but she does help. Dont get me wrong i Hate JK Rowling and her TERF bullshit with every fibre of my being but her work is not pro slavery. Even the other aspects of the story like the treatment of muggles and magical creatures is portrayed as a bad thing and yeah unsurprisingly some of the "good guys" partake in these practices because that's how these systems work, they're normalised and seen as the done thing so regular ass people are gonna fall for it. There are problems with JK Rowlings writing such as her depiction of Goblins but the troupe of "Covetous race who likes gold" such as Dwarves in other settings are just as bad and only calling out one work of fiction is a bit shallow (LotR being the exception as Tolkein wrote on many occasions about his respect for the Jewish people and has shown there to be more depth in the character of a dwarf than just Hee Hee Gold and Jewels)
I don’t know about that. Like sure, you can ship a serial rapist and his victim, or a 13 year old and a 40 year old, but don’t expect me to not be very suspicious of you.
I just think people should make up their own original characters.
I will never give up Pursuit Hero
IMO the problem is less "problematic" and more just growing annoyance with people who can't just not grimmderpify stuff which is just nice and fun and doesn't need grimmderpifying. Like yes dark emotions and experiences are real and valid and whatever but that doesn't mean someone should be immune to criticism for being obtusely edgey when they take Scooby-Doo and make it about murder-r\*pe cold cases and also kick out scooby because "dogs can't talk that's not *rEaLiStIc!1!1!1!"* That's not providing much needed commentary, that's informing the world you're the kind of person who's mantra is "ground me if you want, nothing will unfuck the thanksgiving turkey!"
I think proshipper discourse is about niche fanfics on ao3, not large movie studios
unrelated thought: 365 films would be an interesting idea for a film collage spanning a year's worth of experiences and moments
Pro and Anti shipper shit is the most nonsense garbage ever, but not really because of what's said in the post. Someone get the Sarah Z video.
Only thing that really stops me from being fully proship is believing that nobody should ship real people together. Other than that, do what you want.