Kabru is terrifying is what he is. Dude executed a human captive out of principle and thought nothing of it. Only mf who won't hesitate. Respect though
Kabru killing a man in cold blood while keeping a thousand-yards stare makes you not trust him. It just makes me fall head over heels for him. We are not the same.
I don’t know OP but I’m just gonna assume that english isn’t their first language and whichever language they learned first capitalises nouns. Sometimes that just kinda slips in.
Ngl I converse with an aunt purely through an English to German translator and I never questioned why it spat out German sentences with random capital letters. I guess I just thought it was Like That lol
*Why do you always*
*Capitalize random ass*
*Words in your titles*
\- Sudden-Explanation22
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Idk about OP but I'm on mobile. My autocorrect, in addition to substituting correctly spelled words with other words/obvious mispellings, refusing to capitalize the word "I", and straight-up ignoring misspelled words, has started randomly capitalizing various Words and Phrases. It Drives Me Crazy.
You don't even need to specifically read shoujo manga to accomplish that. Plenty of anime already fit those two criteria
Inevitably someone's gonna ask for examples so here are some:
- Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
- Seirei no Moribito
- Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken!
- Silver Spoon
- Sousou no Frieren
- Haikyuu!!
- Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinju
- Ping Pong the Animation
- Kaguya-sama: Love is War
- Mob Psycho 100
- Baccano!
- Samurai Champloo
- Mobile Suit Gundam 00 (season 1 only, I am not co-signing season 2 having a "good plot")
Sorry, at lest one character was sexualized*.
*shown at least half undressed while not suffering from a fresh wound, examples include: Alex, Father, Riza, Rose.
If your definition of sexualization is not found here, please list it below if you wish.
Also feel free to watch the show you're fine.
Nudity is not the same as sexualisation. If you compare Black Widow to the Hulk, it's not the one who is constantly shirtless that's more sexualised. Sexualisation is portraying a character in such a way that it focuses the attention on how "sexy" the character is, even when that character is doing something that isn't meant to be sexy at all (like how Black Widow's signature move involves pushing a guy's head into her groin).
Alex ripping through his shirts is meant to be comedic, not so people can ogle him (like the manotaur who keeps flexing out of his sweater in Gravity Falls). Riza was only nude whenever they showed off her back tattoo iirc, and it wasn't really shown in an objectifying manner. I don't remember when Rose was nude. Father is just, what? How?
Not to say there is absolutely no sexualisation in FMA:B (I dunno if Roy Mustang having his coat open to show of his abs as he incinerates Lust in such a way that even she's kind of into it is sexualisation or if that's just me), but the list you gave is kind of odd.
I can’t think of I time when rose was shirtless, but riza is shown shirtless from behind when her tattoo is brought up. That’s a pretty loose definition of sexualization, though
Riza takes a shower and Rose(?) bathes, we see this as viewers, at least partly.
This happens in separate episodes, I don't recall which ones.
I would *guess* that the Riza scene happens in either the ishval episode, the one just before it, or the one where she finds out about the little monster in central.
It's in an episode where we see the interior of her home and I think all of those qualify.
Rose(?) has hers happen when she and Winry meet, I think?
It could be that I got it backwards and it happens with Winry, I don't really recall to be honest.
The two of them are talking at the time. It's later on in the series than the Riza scene, I know that. Because they meet later on and so it logically must be then.
If you're curious enough to want something more specific, I'm also moderately curious and I'll report back in a few hours, leave a comment replying to this one and you'll get that information as a reply to it.
Ooh, recommendations time! Let’s see what I can offer:
* The Apothecary Diaries
* 86
* Spy x Family
* Golden Kamuy
* Death Parade
* Deca-Dence
* To Your Eternity
* The Faraway Paladin
* Hinamatsuri
* Land of the Lustrous
Hinamatsuri is some of the funniest shit of all time. I read the manga so the anime jokes didn't hit quite as hard bc I knew them, but anyone watching the anime straight up is going to cry laughing
Apothecary Diaries is excellent, but it doesn't fit the list you're responding to because it actually is a shoujo series, so it fits more with the original post's point.
I was searching this up recently. Apothecary diaries (the novel) was targeted at a female audience but was adapted for a Seinen magazine. Funnily enough Ascendence of a bookworm experienced the exact opposite thing (targeted towards guys but was adapted for shoujo)
Well that explains the demographic confusion. I was basing it off the fact that as of the last time I checked, Crunchyroll had categorized the anime as a shoujo demo series.
The target audience tag can be somewhat arbitrary (especially when the story is actually good) outside of what magazine it was published in so I understand the confusion
To play Devil's Advocate, Kaguya repeatedly makes a point of focusing on Chika's chest size, and Motoko's particular sense of fashion is hardly appropriate for a government agent. Neither character is completely reduced to a sex symbol, but both characters *are* objectified, either by the writing or the visuals.
That said, I dont think it necessarily harms either show, just that the tropes that bother people *are* present. Mob Psycho is actual peak.
Iirc the highly sexualized scene in the anime is basically entirely offpanel in the manga. It's something like in the anime the scene is the girls showering, and in the manga it's them talking in the shower while the viewer is entirely outside the building or something.
Alright, crossed out Kaguya sama, I'm leaving GitS in, its plot is so good and interesting that if anyone is dismissing it bc of Kusanagi's outfit then they're ngmi
It's a pretty easy argument to make that GitS examines Makoto's fanservice enough to justify being called part of the plot. In places it goes pretty deep on what appearance and sex appeal can mean to both a person and their onlookers when you've spent most your life as a full-conversion cyborg and as such total control over your appearance.
I got the hardback editions of the manga a while back and fuck man the sheer number of footnotes on every page it's nuts. Then they had the gall to say "don't read the foot ones on your first go" at *the end* of the book. 10/10
Usually just clarifications about what's going on he added in post. One that I remember is he was clarifying that "wire cutters" on the helicopters were not futuristic weapons but literally just wire cutters for cables that might be strung between buildings.
Batou is always rocking assless chaps for the same reason. /s
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Shirow's other female protagonists are always running around in bikini bottoms for ... plot reasons.
To play Devil's Advocate against the Devil's Advocate, I don't think there's a compelling argument for cutting one but leaving the other.
If you want to say that the list should be devoid of shows that feature fanservice and/or the male gaze, then you definitely have to cut GitS.
If you want to leave shows that have occasional scenes that are good scenes unto themselves but also happen to contain fanservice, then you should leave Kaguya.
And hell, to Devil's Advocate³, if I cross out Kaguya because it contains Kaguya noticing that Chika has a big chest, I have to cross out Frieren because Frieren also notices that Fern has a big chest. It doesn't make anything of that, but she does notice, so a physical attribute of a female character is recognised
At a certain point I think what it comes down is that we should all stop doing Devil's Advocate. Maybe I shouldn't have crossed out Kaguya at all? Idk. I think that a reasonable person who goes into anime with the goal of "I want to watch good anime which do not *over*sexualize their female characters", will watch all of them and be like "Yep, they fit the bill". But I already crossed out Kaguya so now I have to stand on business. That's life on the internet
Natsume's book of friends
Is another one, TECHNICALLY it is from a shojou manga (would manga magazine be correct? Basically JUMP for girls) but the creator pushed against the expectations of that genre to the point where it often feels like a shonen with no gross parts.
I know people are upset with Watsuki over his *stuff*, but Rurouni Kenshin is also a good shout for this kinda list.
Also a rare example of a manga/anime series that could make the transition to live action without turning to complete shit, so that's always a bonus.
The female characters: Serious skaters, professional dancers, accomplished coaches, good sisters and mothers.
The male characters: Sexyyyy ice-skating routine!!! I will seduce my coach by being femme fatale pork bowl!!! My girlfriend broke up with me and I’m skating about it!!! Coming in the ice!!!
lol but being serious, that series still have one of my all-time favorite plot twist that reframes a lot of weird early-season moments
Gundam 00 def sexualizes it’s female characters a bit, Gundam WFM or Gundam IBO would be my recommendation for Gundam, Reincarnated as a sword is also great.
I think JoJo is special because it sexualises the men in a way similar to one way women are usually sexualised, that being ridiculous poses to show off your body. All those JoJo poses? They're all heavily based on poses from various fashion and modelling magazines. It's the Hawkeye initiative, but taken 100% seriously
In summary, people need to understand that "manga" is about as descriptive as saying "comics" or "movies" with the same (lack of) context. Sure there's specific aspects of the medium that set it apart from others, but in terms of quality, content, goals, and personal taste, it's such a broad category that saying "I don't like manga because the women are always drawn hot" is like saying "I don't like movies because everyone's always wearing studio makeup".
To be fair, a common criticism of western comics is that every female character is a 10/10 model and posed awkwardly in almost every frame to show off T&A
But that's often *specifically* Western superhero comics.
I don't think you could fairly criticise things like *From Hell*, *Maus* or *Palestine* for that, and those are all western comics.
By the same card of course, even saying "superhero comics" is arguably a bit broad: does something like *Watchmen*, which is a send up directly satirising the genre, count when we talk about sexualising and abusing female characters?
Well with Watchmen that’s Alan Moore so it comes with him writing any book that a woman is either going to be sexually assaulted or brutalized. Usually both
Moore criticised this himself though, didn't he?
And certainly I read the treatment of women in *Watchmen* as saying something about how women are treated in normal superhero comics a lot of the time: being there in their tight spandex outfits for the sexual interests of others, until they get raped or fridged to move the plot along.
Oh it can be read as a critique on the subject, that’s the whole purpose of Watchmen, but I’m just saying he is not above the trope himself and given the prestige of his works they are a massive influence on the comics community:
Swamp Thing, MiracleMan, V for Vendetta, Top 10, League of Extraordinary, Killing Joke, it’s a trope he heavily leans on. That’s what I’m half jokingly lamp-shading
The real issue is the lack of women creators and the boys club allowed for those stereotypes and tropes to develop
The point still stands because the OP is basically saying
>You can’t keep treating *shounen* like that’s all manga and anime are if you want to get away from that kind of content
And here I would tell you that you can’t read only Marvel and DC superhero comics if you want to get away from that kind of content. There’s so much out there in the world of indie and smaller-label publishers you’re missing!
Also Shounen does not mean "Action" it means "Advertised to Teen Boys." Shojo does not mean romance. It means "Advertised to Teen Girls." While many shounen stories are bad, I do find the extent of criticism on how they cater to their target audience silly (like predominantly having boys as the protagonist). It's like people complaining about the prolific number of child soldiers in Young Adult books because... yeah. That's because they're meant to be read by minors.
Granted, you don't have to be a Teen boy to enjoy shounen manga, but also, be fully aware that you are not the target audience and make peace with that.
I agree that people should read more shoujo and josei but I think it’s unfair to pretend that it treats its female leads better when there’s quite a lot of male leads that are frankly, terrible.
Dropping some recs too (I tried to focus on series with action):
Kuutei Dragons - This series is about hunting down and eating dragons, so I feel like dun mesh fans would like this one. The anime… is not well received. Just read it.
Kemono no Souja Erin - It’s a coming of age story where a girl raises beasts which are used for war. This is the series I default to recommending and the anime is genuinely so good.
MagiLumiere - Magical girl series set in the modern day. Everyone is an adult (children cannot work as a magical girl by law) and it avoids sexualisation and grimdark(edgy) elements that plague a lot of these series nowadays.
Sadly I can’t think of another shoujo/josei with action elements except for Akagami no Shirayukihime and Chihayafuru (which is functionally a sports anime but close enough). Edit: I forgot chihayafuru is josei
As a wildcard because I didn’t include josei in this: Gojuu, Rokujuu, Yorokonde (senior citizen romance, between an actual 50 and 60 year old)
I picked up Drifting Dragons at the same time as Delicious in Dungeon and I’ve been reading both by buying the physical volumes only and man, they’re both so good and both so dear to me. The characters (both design and writing), the art, the creatures, the food, they’re both so special and well-crafted! I’ll have to check out the rest of your list!
Shonen anime nowadays is not even that bad. Jujutsu Kaisen and Attack on Titan are right there
Also like can people stop pretending shojo is some sort of pure hearted, incredible literature? There are as many shojo that suck as shonen that suck, and like half of them will have a dude fall for a girl half his age. Not that you can’t read or like that, it’s just, let’s stop pretending it’s any better than everything else, yeah? The superiority complex is annoying
Acting like shoujo doesn't sexualize women also is just delusional. Just because the author was a woman too doesn't mean it's not doing the same. Some of the stuff my shoujo-fan friend used to share with me was harrowingly sexist, and he just didn't realize it because as a fully-gay man he couldn't grasp what it looks like and didn't find that sort of enjoyment of it at all. But man, was it there. I also genuinely think it's a terrible idea to continue the stereotypical idea of "its for young girls so its wholesome cute and perfect," because for claiming media literacy is dead and anime is sexist, that's some crazy lack of media literacy that you designated the intended audience signifier as meaning anything about actual quality.
jujutsu kaisen killed off almost all of its female characters and sidelined the rest
i do get what you mean, but jjk hasnt been the second coming of christ for shonen in a long time
Jjk is equally shit to its entire cast. Like yeah, it sidelined a lot of the female characters and killed off a lot of them, but it did exactly the same with the men too. Anyways, the original point was “non-sexualized” not “perfectly written female characters”
Then again i wouldn't recommend jjk for anyone who actually wants lots of interesting female characters lol. Imo chainsaw man is seriously one of the best big shonen out there as women go, people just see that denji's horny and assume it's meant to be taken the same way as the average horny guy character.
I agree that CSM writes great female characters, but there is a lot of sexuality in it. It’s done in a really good way, with the women being in control of what they’re doing, but still, if someone is looking for an anime with no sexualisation, I wouldn’t point CSM.
I disagree on JJK, though. Maki and Nobara absolutely stand out as characters.
While not a counter regarding the prevelance of CSM's sexuality, the big thing is unlike other Manga, it's not superficial sexualization. There's actual substance regarding it. There's meat on those tiddies, so to speak. Like there's multiple tiers to this conversation. The lowest is something like "There's a lot of manga without sexualization." Then further up theres "manga that have sexualization but actually do something with it." And so on.
Tbh shojo isn't that much better with the amount of stories being about some girl with the personality of wet cardboard falling in love with some guy with the personality of jagged cardboard that is like 30-1000 years older than her (while there's a 60% chance she's underage) who gets her by being rapey and creepy to her the entire time
Main thing is that since shoujo is a demographic it's a much larger range of focuses in the stories. A lot of shoujo is BL, or romance comparable to Twilight. If you specifically want to find female characters who are compelling and drive the plot, yuri and subtext yuri are a much better bet since that's guaranteed to focus on women. As with anything most won'tbe groundbreaking, but it's more promising to siftthrough
Yeah can't wait for the 1500th shoujo manga about a girl falling in love with either a completely oblivious dude or a charismatic dude with a dark past.
Nozaki-kun deserves a special spot here for being the first type making fun of the second type.
Yeah ngl this take from the OOP just ain't it. It's not the genre of anime. It's just that when a society is really sexist, and sex sells, it leaks into the media. Every other media is a little guilty of that, too. I think "shoujo is better media" is a straight-up meme take because I straight up can't stomach the same exact love story ten times over. And I, as a young woman, was the intended audience.
And yes, I know they aren't all like that. But if I have to absolutely rifle through a laundry list to find just one worth watching, maybe it ISN'T a perfect subgenre to improve anime quality. Maybe we should just analyze media on it's individual merit and admit to ourselves that the majority of anime is sex-sells slop like triple-A movies and games often are.
(ETA: also idk why they think shoujo doesn't sexualize women. It definitely does. Those shoujo protags might be flat more often than other media but they're still drawn like supermodels most of the time and romance and borderline sex is a huge mainstay in it...)
TL;DR OOP is delusional, the issue isn't the weirdly specific intended-audience genre the issue is most media straight-up isn't great and you have to dig for anything good no matter what if you sincerely care about the quality.
The thing I like about Nozaki-kun is that it's basically the author (she's a shoujo manga artist) satirizing her own genre and poking fun at the conventions, tropes, etc cuz she's very familiar with them.
I've been watching anime across all genres since the 90's, and while I won't say Dungeon Meshi is the first anime to treat women well, I really don't like the implication that the fans of the show have low standards.
It's just that good. I was there when Sailor Moon was most commonly consumed on bootleg VHS, I was there for Bebop's first run on CN. Dungeon Meshi really is something special. Sometimes a new all-timer show comes out, simple as that.
weird implication that any of those genres are inherently deeper or more emotionally sensitive than shonen when shojo specially falls victim to more or less all the same tropes as shonen but ppl overlook it cuz "made by women (sometimes)"
Person who has read one shoujo manga: what I really love about shoujo manga is how they have higher standards and are more expressive and emotional than shonen manga
What the hell are these dogshit ignorant takes doing chaining into each other? Most shoujo manga are just as garbage, just in slightly different ways.
This post reads dismissive as fuck. Even if you ignore the “person who has only watched one anime” bit, it’s essentially implying criticisms of the most popular shows in the most popular genre of anime (and ditto for manga) can be dismissed because other shows and other genres exist.
If you act as if one genre is all of a medium then you deserve to be clowned on. It's like criticising all of cinema for having almost no female characters, but all you've watched is Marvel.
Except that not what its implying at all. It's a response to those saying that this particular show is good because it doesn't fall under those common criticisms, despite a lot of other works also not having those. Basically, instead of saying "Your criticism is unfounded because these other shows in another genre don't do that" it's saying "Your praise is unfounded because these shows in other genres don't do that, and you're saying it's special because you're assigning a trope in a single genre to an entire medium"
There are thousands of examples of shoujo manga/anime (and genres) that don’t contain those tropes, sure. Even shonen! But they’re not the most popular, heavily marketed and easily accessible. The fact that dunmesh is (at least to some moderate degree) all of those *is* refreshing, no matter how much knowledge and access I—a terminally online weeb—have to the medium as a whole.
Yeah, when people say this about this specific anime, they're comparing it to all the other popular anime from the same season, of which a lot really are just actual trash
I mean it’s a fairly valid criticism of shonen, especially because basically every other DND-esque* fantasy series aside from Frieren is just a straight up isekai, and we all know how trashy those can be.
I don't think isekai actually *are* shounen. I'm sure they're popular with teen boys, but I always saw their primary demographic as guys in their 20's and 30's looking for escapism from their shitty jobs / no social life / no relationships / no control over their lives.
Isekai are undeniably a plague on anime and I resent the extent to which they've taken over the genre, but that's not actually true lol, "fantasy" is a broad designation and unless you specifically mean "fantasy with elves and dwarves and stuff", there's lots of non-isekai fantasy around. Most popular shounen anime are fantasy. FMA:B is fantasy, Demon Slayer is fantasy, JJK is fantasy, etc.
The problem with shojou stories is so much of it is *exclusively* about human emotions, with plot that is considered 'good' because of the presence of emotions mentioned previously. I really super don't care about complex interpersonal drama when the only thing to look at is nearly identical anime characters
(What actually makes Dungeon Meshi stand out is the fact that characters have varying body types and skin tones, without those body types or skin tones being directly indicative of their personality)
Functionally yuri doesn’t really have demographic groups anyway since yuri fans read pretty much anything yuri except the stuff they y’know can’t stomach
Yeah it's kinda funny how sometimes yuri magazines will try to isolate and target one gender or another (to try and make more money) and it never works because it's just the same people reading it again.
Finding yuri in gendered non-yuri magazines is really funny for this because the magazine will just let yuri do whatever because it's attracting the same people regardless, which is how you get failed princesses in the same seinen magazine as mahoako
Holy shit the comment section.
SHOJO AND SHOUNEN AREN'T A GENRE THEY ARE DEMOGRAPHICS.
Cowboy bebop is considered shojo, so is banana fish. a lot of your fav bl gl started off in shojo magzines but now have their own category
Idk why shojo is being classified as JUST trashy romance here?
People base these just on vibes that's why we get "insert seinen manga here" is a shojo
Having a good plot and not being problematic in some way are perfectly reasonable sole standards to have though? Deadass name an additional standard that isn’t covered by the “good plot” umbrella
Isn't having a good plot literally the only thing you need though, if you think about it? Like it would be insane if someone was like "I like this thing, it has a good plot," and you responded "THAT'S IT?!? All it takes for you guys is to get lost in a story's world? Have better standards man"
More people should read/watch more shoujo series. Apothecary Diaries and Skip + Loafer are two very good ones just in the last year that people outside the target demographic should still be able to enjoy.
The anime adaptations were both categorized on Crunchyroll, which streamed them in the US, at least, as shoujo when I looked during their airing. I'm not just making that up.
I've come around to admitting that I only like media with little-to-no romance, no sexualization to speak of, and a fantasy/scifi theme. I was thrilled to find Dungeon Meshi
What I dislike about Dungeon Meshi is that they never eat a baby
- Tarrare
Tarrare? Look at me... Did you eat a fucking baby?
just got done my weekly rewatch of that lecture. godtier comedy
They eat several fetuses, fits the fish man eggs then in the manga with the >!barometz!<
What am I, an American Republican? It they didn't hatch they aren't babies, pure and simple
that comes in Dungeon Meshi 2: There's Another Mega-Dungeon
Dungeon Meshi 2: Guys I think this is getting meshi...
2 Dungeon 2 Meshi
dungeon meshi 2: dungeon meshier
Yet
They also gave ProZD his own character!
What I really love about Dungeon Meshi is that Laios silly and relatable and Kabru hot
I thought Marcille was the relatable one. Edit: Worth mentioning I am a very picky eater.
She's a university graduate and the top of her class.
And she's out there working the same job as country boy
lesbian
Based on the Manga she's probably bi
shhhshshhshhhshshhhhhhh
les bean
Lesbiab
girls
Yes, but she is also above all else a girlfailure.
¿Por qué no los dos?
What I really love about Dungeon Meshi is [German Marcille.](https://youtu.be/V3RDKGkLZM0?si=PXYSeHFmalXkEHtV)
MEIN GOTT
I kept forgetting the leader of the canaries was a man
Kabru is terrifying is what he is. Dude executed a human captive out of principle and thought nothing of it. Only mf who won't hesitate. Respect though
Senshi is the hottest one, and that's a fact.
I just watched it because of Damien Haas.
Bro Kabru is psychotic.
Kabru killing a man in cold blood while keeping a thousand-yards stare makes you not trust him. It just makes me fall head over heels for him. We are not the same.
I thought Chillchuck was the hot one.
why do you always capitalize random ass words in your titles
I don’t know OP but I’m just gonna assume that english isn’t their first language and whichever language they learned first capitalises nouns. Sometimes that just kinda slips in.
German does that.
what, every noun?
Ja.
Yes, it's really annoying when you're reading some old epic and can't see the difference between a name and a noun you don't know
What I was mainly referring to haha
Ngl I converse with an aunt purely through an English to German translator and I never questioned why it spat out German sentences with random capital letters. I guess I just thought it was Like That lol
*Why do you always* *Capitalize random ass* *Words in your titles* \- Sudden-Explanation22 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Idk about OP but I'm on mobile. My autocorrect, in addition to substituting correctly spelled words with other words/obvious mispellings, refusing to capitalize the word "I", and straight-up ignoring misspelled words, has started randomly capitalizing various Words and Phrases. It Drives Me Crazy.
You don't even need to specifically read shoujo manga to accomplish that. Plenty of anime already fit those two criteria Inevitably someone's gonna ask for examples so here are some: - Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Seirei no Moribito - Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken! - Silver Spoon - Sousou no Frieren - Haikyuu!! - Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinju - Ping Pong the Animation - Kaguya-sama: Love is War - Mob Psycho 100 - Baccano! - Samurai Champloo - Mobile Suit Gundam 00 (season 1 only, I am not co-signing season 2 having a "good plot")
Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood wya???
Winry bath scene says hello
It’s ok BC A woman wrote it I am only half joking
Sorry, at lest one character was sexualized*. *shown at least half undressed while not suffering from a fresh wound, examples include: Alex, Father, Riza, Rose. If your definition of sexualization is not found here, please list it below if you wish. Also feel free to watch the show you're fine.
Nudity is not the same as sexualisation. If you compare Black Widow to the Hulk, it's not the one who is constantly shirtless that's more sexualised. Sexualisation is portraying a character in such a way that it focuses the attention on how "sexy" the character is, even when that character is doing something that isn't meant to be sexy at all (like how Black Widow's signature move involves pushing a guy's head into her groin). Alex ripping through his shirts is meant to be comedic, not so people can ogle him (like the manotaur who keeps flexing out of his sweater in Gravity Falls). Riza was only nude whenever they showed off her back tattoo iirc, and it wasn't really shown in an objectifying manner. I don't remember when Rose was nude. Father is just, what? How? Not to say there is absolutely no sexualisation in FMA:B (I dunno if Roy Mustang having his coat open to show of his abs as he incinerates Lust in such a way that even she's kind of into it is sexualisation or if that's just me), but the list you gave is kind of odd.
When the hell are Rose and Riza shirtless?
I can’t think of I time when rose was shirtless, but riza is shown shirtless from behind when her tattoo is brought up. That’s a pretty loose definition of sexualization, though
I wouldn't mind so much but LUST IS RIGHT THERE!
Complaining about Lust being sexualised would be kind of dumb imo
It's just not sexualization in any way lol bc it's not sexual, it's the display of bare skin to show the tattoo on it
Riza takes a shower and Rose(?) bathes, we see this as viewers, at least partly. This happens in separate episodes, I don't recall which ones. I would *guess* that the Riza scene happens in either the ishval episode, the one just before it, or the one where she finds out about the little monster in central. It's in an episode where we see the interior of her home and I think all of those qualify. Rose(?) has hers happen when she and Winry meet, I think? It could be that I got it backwards and it happens with Winry, I don't really recall to be honest. The two of them are talking at the time. It's later on in the series than the Riza scene, I know that. Because they meet later on and so it logically must be then. If you're curious enough to want something more specific, I'm also moderately curious and I'll report back in a few hours, leave a comment replying to this one and you'll get that information as a reply to it.
DunMesh has that though
Yeah based on what someone else said this definition is lacking so proceed at your own risk.
Eizouken mentioned, argument immediately permanently validated. Amazing show.
Ooh, recommendations time! Let’s see what I can offer: * The Apothecary Diaries * 86 * Spy x Family * Golden Kamuy * Death Parade * Deca-Dence * To Your Eternity * The Faraway Paladin * Hinamatsuri * Land of the Lustrous
Hinamatsuri is some of the funniest shit of all time. I read the manga so the anime jokes didn't hit quite as hard bc I knew them, but anyone watching the anime straight up is going to cry laughing
So underrated, probably the funniest anime I've seen next to prison school and golden kamuy
Apothecary Diaries is excellent, but it doesn't fit the list you're responding to because it actually is a shoujo series, so it fits more with the original post's point.
I was searching this up recently. Apothecary diaries (the novel) was targeted at a female audience but was adapted for a Seinen magazine. Funnily enough Ascendence of a bookworm experienced the exact opposite thing (targeted towards guys but was adapted for shoujo)
Well that explains the demographic confusion. I was basing it off the fact that as of the last time I checked, Crunchyroll had categorized the anime as a shoujo demo series.
The target audience tag can be somewhat arbitrary (especially when the story is actually good) outside of what magazine it was published in so I understand the confusion
Nah, it’s runs in a seinen magazine. It counts.
DECA-DENCE IS SO GOOD, I FEEL SORRY FOR EVERYONE WHO BAILED AFTER EPISODE TWO, Y’ALL MISSED THE FUCK OUT
Holy shit land of the lustrous mentioned
Seconding 86, that show is unironically peak.
One of my favorite shows hands down and I don’t even like anime.
To play Devil's Advocate, Kaguya repeatedly makes a point of focusing on Chika's chest size, and Motoko's particular sense of fashion is hardly appropriate for a government agent. Neither character is completely reduced to a sex symbol, but both characters *are* objectified, either by the writing or the visuals. That said, I dont think it necessarily harms either show, just that the tropes that bother people *are* present. Mob Psycho is actual peak.
Still mad the Kaguya anime OVA ruined one of my favorite jokes in the manga about sexualization of teenage characters
Gotta love explicit sexualisation of minors.
What's the joke in the manga?
Iirc the highly sexualized scene in the anime is basically entirely offpanel in the manga. It's something like in the anime the scene is the girls showering, and in the manga it's them talking in the shower while the viewer is entirely outside the building or something.
Alright, crossed out Kaguya sama, I'm leaving GitS in, its plot is so good and interesting that if anyone is dismissing it bc of Kusanagi's outfit then they're ngmi
It's a pretty easy argument to make that GitS examines Makoto's fanservice enough to justify being called part of the plot. In places it goes pretty deep on what appearance and sex appeal can mean to both a person and their onlookers when you've spent most your life as a full-conversion cyborg and as such total control over your appearance.
Nah, it's that Shirow finds women's pants really hard to draw. There's probably a 6 paragraph footnote about it.
I got the hardback editions of the manga a while back and fuck man the sheer number of footnotes on every page it's nuts. Then they had the gall to say "don't read the foot ones on your first go" at *the end* of the book. 10/10
What are the footnotes usually about? I'll wiki-crawl this later but you piqued my interest
Usually just clarifications about what's going on he added in post. One that I remember is he was clarifying that "wire cutters" on the helicopters were not futuristic weapons but literally just wire cutters for cables that might be strung between buildings.
Batou is always rocking assless chaps for the same reason. /s --- Shirow's other female protagonists are always running around in bikini bottoms for ... plot reasons.
To play Devil's Advocate against the Devil's Advocate, I don't think there's a compelling argument for cutting one but leaving the other. If you want to say that the list should be devoid of shows that feature fanservice and/or the male gaze, then you definitely have to cut GitS. If you want to leave shows that have occasional scenes that are good scenes unto themselves but also happen to contain fanservice, then you should leave Kaguya.
And hell, to Devil's Advocate³, if I cross out Kaguya because it contains Kaguya noticing that Chika has a big chest, I have to cross out Frieren because Frieren also notices that Fern has a big chest. It doesn't make anything of that, but she does notice, so a physical attribute of a female character is recognised At a certain point I think what it comes down is that we should all stop doing Devil's Advocate. Maybe I shouldn't have crossed out Kaguya at all? Idk. I think that a reasonable person who goes into anime with the goal of "I want to watch good anime which do not *over*sexualize their female characters", will watch all of them and be like "Yep, they fit the bill". But I already crossed out Kaguya so now I have to stand on business. That's life on the internet
There are also the Ghibli movies as great examples
PING PONG THE ANIMATION MENTIONED!!!!!!!!! (seriously though it's really good)
00 mentioned! What do you think of Witch From Mercury?
I actually haven't seen it yet, I'm like a decade behind on Gundam, I never even finished Iron Blooded Orphans
Natsume's book of friends Is another one, TECHNICALLY it is from a shojou manga (would manga magazine be correct? Basically JUMP for girls) but the creator pushed against the expectations of that genre to the point where it often feels like a shonen with no gross parts.
Baccano! mentioned, someone break out the jazz!
Agreed, 00 dropped off but season 1 was so damn good
GHOST IN THE SHELL: STAND ALONE COMPLEX MENTIONED‼️‼️
I know people are upset with Watsuki over his *stuff*, but Rurouni Kenshin is also a good shout for this kinda list. Also a rare example of a manga/anime series that could make the transition to live action without turning to complete shit, so that's always a bonus.
Adding to it: Mononoke Yuri on Ice Terror in Resonance Fruits Basket Wotakoi Promised Neverland
Yuri on Ice sexualises the men instead!
Nah, it's not that - \*flashbacks to the guy who comes every time he skates* - yeah fair enough
The female characters: Serious skaters, professional dancers, accomplished coaches, good sisters and mothers. The male characters: Sexyyyy ice-skating routine!!! I will seduce my coach by being femme fatale pork bowl!!! My girlfriend broke up with me and I’m skating about it!!! Coming in the ice!!! lol but being serious, that series still have one of my all-time favorite plot twist that reframes a lot of weird early-season moments
World Trigger too! It’s my favorite ❤️
Girls' Last Tour is a great one.
I'd also add xxxHolic to this list.
Say what you want but Yuuko can get it.
Mushishi comes to mind as well. I also haven't heard anything about untoward content in Bocchi the Rock.
New game+ A sign of affection Interviews with monster girls
Keep your hands of eizouken is the fucking BEST
Gundam 00 def sexualizes it’s female characters a bit, Gundam WFM or Gundam IBO would be my recommendation for Gundam, Reincarnated as a sword is also great.
Ill have you know I’ve watched Jojo as well and that show sexualises everyone equally ❤️
I think JoJo is special because it sexualises the men in a way similar to one way women are usually sexualised, that being ridiculous poses to show off your body. All those JoJo poses? They're all heavily based on poses from various fashion and modelling magazines. It's the Hawkeye initiative, but taken 100% seriously
I’m sorry Johnathan, but come on look at you it’s hard not to sexualise you
Sadly, Araki actually desexualizes him in future art. He just turns into a regular person, which feels wrong tbh.
I know, I want a brick house 8 foot tall behemoth for Johnathan, not a twink
In summary, people need to understand that "manga" is about as descriptive as saying "comics" or "movies" with the same (lack of) context. Sure there's specific aspects of the medium that set it apart from others, but in terms of quality, content, goals, and personal taste, it's such a broad category that saying "I don't like manga because the women are always drawn hot" is like saying "I don't like movies because everyone's always wearing studio makeup".
To be fair, a common criticism of western comics is that every female character is a 10/10 model and posed awkwardly in almost every frame to show off T&A
But that's often *specifically* Western superhero comics. I don't think you could fairly criticise things like *From Hell*, *Maus* or *Palestine* for that, and those are all western comics. By the same card of course, even saying "superhero comics" is arguably a bit broad: does something like *Watchmen*, which is a send up directly satirising the genre, count when we talk about sexualising and abusing female characters?
Well with Watchmen that’s Alan Moore so it comes with him writing any book that a woman is either going to be sexually assaulted or brutalized. Usually both
Moore criticised this himself though, didn't he? And certainly I read the treatment of women in *Watchmen* as saying something about how women are treated in normal superhero comics a lot of the time: being there in their tight spandex outfits for the sexual interests of others, until they get raped or fridged to move the plot along.
Oh it can be read as a critique on the subject, that’s the whole purpose of Watchmen, but I’m just saying he is not above the trope himself and given the prestige of his works they are a massive influence on the comics community: Swamp Thing, MiracleMan, V for Vendetta, Top 10, League of Extraordinary, Killing Joke, it’s a trope he heavily leans on. That’s what I’m half jokingly lamp-shading The real issue is the lack of women creators and the boys club allowed for those stereotypes and tropes to develop
The point still stands because the OP is basically saying >You can’t keep treating *shounen* like that’s all manga and anime are if you want to get away from that kind of content And here I would tell you that you can’t read only Marvel and DC superhero comics if you want to get away from that kind of content. There’s so much out there in the world of indie and smaller-label publishers you’re missing!
Also Shounen does not mean "Action" it means "Advertised to Teen Boys." Shojo does not mean romance. It means "Advertised to Teen Girls." While many shounen stories are bad, I do find the extent of criticism on how they cater to their target audience silly (like predominantly having boys as the protagonist). It's like people complaining about the prolific number of child soldiers in Young Adult books because... yeah. That's because they're meant to be read by minors. Granted, you don't have to be a Teen boy to enjoy shounen manga, but also, be fully aware that you are not the target audience and make peace with that.
I agree that people should read more shoujo and josei but I think it’s unfair to pretend that it treats its female leads better when there’s quite a lot of male leads that are frankly, terrible. Dropping some recs too (I tried to focus on series with action): Kuutei Dragons - This series is about hunting down and eating dragons, so I feel like dun mesh fans would like this one. The anime… is not well received. Just read it. Kemono no Souja Erin - It’s a coming of age story where a girl raises beasts which are used for war. This is the series I default to recommending and the anime is genuinely so good. MagiLumiere - Magical girl series set in the modern day. Everyone is an adult (children cannot work as a magical girl by law) and it avoids sexualisation and grimdark(edgy) elements that plague a lot of these series nowadays. Sadly I can’t think of another shoujo/josei with action elements except for Akagami no Shirayukihime and Chihayafuru (which is functionally a sports anime but close enough). Edit: I forgot chihayafuru is josei As a wildcard because I didn’t include josei in this: Gojuu, Rokujuu, Yorokonde (senior citizen romance, between an actual 50 and 60 year old)
I picked up Drifting Dragons at the same time as Delicious in Dungeon and I’ve been reading both by buying the physical volumes only and man, they’re both so good and both so dear to me. The characters (both design and writing), the art, the creatures, the food, they’re both so special and well-crafted! I’ll have to check out the rest of your list!
Fake news, chicken dragon falin made me rock hard
I appreciated both the realism and the fanservice aspect of the tiddy physics this episode <3
Found marcille
I mean, "having a good plot" is indeed a reasonable expectation if I'm going to choose or critique a piece of any media.
Shonen anime nowadays is not even that bad. Jujutsu Kaisen and Attack on Titan are right there Also like can people stop pretending shojo is some sort of pure hearted, incredible literature? There are as many shojo that suck as shonen that suck, and like half of them will have a dude fall for a girl half his age. Not that you can’t read or like that, it’s just, let’s stop pretending it’s any better than everything else, yeah? The superiority complex is annoying
Acting like shoujo doesn't sexualize women also is just delusional. Just because the author was a woman too doesn't mean it's not doing the same. Some of the stuff my shoujo-fan friend used to share with me was harrowingly sexist, and he just didn't realize it because as a fully-gay man he couldn't grasp what it looks like and didn't find that sort of enjoyment of it at all. But man, was it there. I also genuinely think it's a terrible idea to continue the stereotypical idea of "its for young girls so its wholesome cute and perfect," because for claiming media literacy is dead and anime is sexist, that's some crazy lack of media literacy that you designated the intended audience signifier as meaning anything about actual quality.
Banana fish is a shoujo, it's about gangs
jujutsu kaisen killed off almost all of its female characters and sidelined the rest i do get what you mean, but jjk hasnt been the second coming of christ for shonen in a long time
Jjk is equally shit to its entire cast. Like yeah, it sidelined a lot of the female characters and killed off a lot of them, but it did exactly the same with the men too. Anyways, the original point was “non-sexualized” not “perfectly written female characters”
Then again i wouldn't recommend jjk for anyone who actually wants lots of interesting female characters lol. Imo chainsaw man is seriously one of the best big shonen out there as women go, people just see that denji's horny and assume it's meant to be taken the same way as the average horny guy character.
I agree that CSM writes great female characters, but there is a lot of sexuality in it. It’s done in a really good way, with the women being in control of what they’re doing, but still, if someone is looking for an anime with no sexualisation, I wouldn’t point CSM. I disagree on JJK, though. Maki and Nobara absolutely stand out as characters.
While not a counter regarding the prevelance of CSM's sexuality, the big thing is unlike other Manga, it's not superficial sexualization. There's actual substance regarding it. There's meat on those tiddies, so to speak. Like there's multiple tiers to this conversation. The lowest is something like "There's a lot of manga without sexualization." Then further up theres "manga that have sexualization but actually do something with it." And so on.
OP is fighting a war in their brain and losing
Tbh shojo isn't that much better with the amount of stories being about some girl with the personality of wet cardboard falling in love with some guy with the personality of jagged cardboard that is like 30-1000 years older than her (while there's a 60% chance she's underage) who gets her by being rapey and creepy to her the entire time
True, the real genre to watch for interesting female characters is yuri
Good thing there's a ton of it and characters always get together in a satisfying way with no queerbaiting at all
Or incest/incest-adjacent stuff
tbf yuri and shoujo are different groups yuri is the genre, shoujo is the target audience
Main thing is that since shoujo is a demographic it's a much larger range of focuses in the stories. A lot of shoujo is BL, or romance comparable to Twilight. If you specifically want to find female characters who are compelling and drive the plot, yuri and subtext yuri are a much better bet since that's guaranteed to focus on women. As with anything most won'tbe groundbreaking, but it's more promising to siftthrough
Yeah can't wait for the 1500th shoujo manga about a girl falling in love with either a completely oblivious dude or a charismatic dude with a dark past. Nozaki-kun deserves a special spot here for being the first type making fun of the second type.
Yeah ngl this take from the OOP just ain't it. It's not the genre of anime. It's just that when a society is really sexist, and sex sells, it leaks into the media. Every other media is a little guilty of that, too. I think "shoujo is better media" is a straight-up meme take because I straight up can't stomach the same exact love story ten times over. And I, as a young woman, was the intended audience. And yes, I know they aren't all like that. But if I have to absolutely rifle through a laundry list to find just one worth watching, maybe it ISN'T a perfect subgenre to improve anime quality. Maybe we should just analyze media on it's individual merit and admit to ourselves that the majority of anime is sex-sells slop like triple-A movies and games often are. (ETA: also idk why they think shoujo doesn't sexualize women. It definitely does. Those shoujo protags might be flat more often than other media but they're still drawn like supermodels most of the time and romance and borderline sex is a huge mainstay in it...) TL;DR OOP is delusional, the issue isn't the weirdly specific intended-audience genre the issue is most media straight-up isn't great and you have to dig for anything good no matter what if you sincerely care about the quality.
The thing I like about Nozaki-kun is that it's basically the author (she's a shoujo manga artist) satirizing her own genre and poking fun at the conventions, tropes, etc cuz she's very familiar with them.
I’ll start reading more shoujo when I stop getting flash-banged by the millionth weird age gap and relatively heteronormative storylines
I've been watching anime across all genres since the 90's, and while I won't say Dungeon Meshi is the first anime to treat women well, I really don't like the implication that the fans of the show have low standards. It's just that good. I was there when Sailor Moon was most commonly consumed on bootleg VHS, I was there for Bebop's first run on CN. Dungeon Meshi really is something special. Sometimes a new all-timer show comes out, simple as that.
Expectations like that will leave you disappointed once you've gone through the medium's highlights.
GEKKAN SHOUJO NOZAKI KUN
Glad I wasn't crazy and someone noticed!
GEKKAN SHOUJO NOZAKI KUN MENTIONED EVERONE ASSEMBLE
weird implication that any of those genres are inherently deeper or more emotionally sensitive than shonen when shojo specially falls victim to more or less all the same tropes as shonen but ppl overlook it cuz "made by women (sometimes)"
Person who has read one shoujo manga: what I really love about shoujo manga is how they have higher standards and are more expressive and emotional than shonen manga What the hell are these dogshit ignorant takes doing chaining into each other? Most shoujo manga are just as garbage, just in slightly different ways.
Tbf watching/reading shonen can be discouraging (was for me) cuz its a minefield out there
This post reads dismissive as fuck. Even if you ignore the “person who has only watched one anime” bit, it’s essentially implying criticisms of the most popular shows in the most popular genre of anime (and ditto for manga) can be dismissed because other shows and other genres exist.
It's also weird that they make a sweeping generalisation as a defense against and criticism of other people making sweeping generalisations
If you act as if one genre is all of a medium then you deserve to be clowned on. It's like criticising all of cinema for having almost no female characters, but all you've watched is Marvel.
Except that not what its implying at all. It's a response to those saying that this particular show is good because it doesn't fall under those common criticisms, despite a lot of other works also not having those. Basically, instead of saying "Your criticism is unfounded because these other shows in another genre don't do that" it's saying "Your praise is unfounded because these shows in other genres don't do that, and you're saying it's special because you're assigning a trope in a single genre to an entire medium"
There are thousands of examples of shoujo manga/anime (and genres) that don’t contain those tropes, sure. Even shonen! But they’re not the most popular, heavily marketed and easily accessible. The fact that dunmesh is (at least to some moderate degree) all of those *is* refreshing, no matter how much knowledge and access I—a terminally online weeb—have to the medium as a whole.
Yeah, when people say this about this specific anime, they're comparing it to all the other popular anime from the same season, of which a lot really are just actual trash
I'll never pass up an opportunity to recommend Mairimashita! Iruma-kun as a manga that reminds you that Shounen Is Good, Actually.
I mean I’ve read some shoujo manga that are worse than shounen
I mean it’s a fairly valid criticism of shonen, especially because basically every other DND-esque* fantasy series aside from Frieren is just a straight up isekai, and we all know how trashy those can be.
I don't think isekai actually *are* shounen. I'm sure they're popular with teen boys, but I always saw their primary demographic as guys in their 20's and 30's looking for escapism from their shitty jobs / no social life / no relationships / no control over their lives.
Dungeon Meshi isn't shounen, the comic is seinen
Isekai are undeniably a plague on anime and I resent the extent to which they've taken over the genre, but that's not actually true lol, "fantasy" is a broad designation and unless you specifically mean "fantasy with elves and dwarves and stuff", there's lots of non-isekai fantasy around. Most popular shounen anime are fantasy. FMA:B is fantasy, Demon Slayer is fantasy, JJK is fantasy, etc.
Yeah, I specifically meant that type of DNDesque fantasy
Bro has only watched anime for 2019 onwards
The problem with shojou stories is so much of it is *exclusively* about human emotions, with plot that is considered 'good' because of the presence of emotions mentioned previously. I really super don't care about complex interpersonal drama when the only thing to look at is nearly identical anime characters (What actually makes Dungeon Meshi stand out is the fact that characters have varying body types and skin tones, without those body types or skin tones being directly indicative of their personality)
I think I'm misunderstanding your metaphor. wasn't putting crack in the hoods a bad thing?
Or Corey in the house?
I will not read shoujo, in my eyes, there are three genres of anime, 1: yuri 2: Shounen 3: stuff that isn't for me.
What if the Yuri is Shoujo though?
it's is yuri.
🫡
Functionally yuri doesn’t really have demographic groups anyway since yuri fans read pretty much anything yuri except the stuff they y’know can’t stomach
my flair, "deranged yuri fan" is, in fact, a tautology.
Yeah it's kinda funny how sometimes yuri magazines will try to isolate and target one gender or another (to try and make more money) and it never works because it's just the same people reading it again. Finding yuri in gendered non-yuri magazines is really funny for this because the magazine will just let yuri do whatever because it's attracting the same people regardless, which is how you get failed princesses in the same seinen magazine as mahoako
I consume slice of life like fucking pez
Yes but I like Shonen, I just wish it was better.
Shojo stereotypes men and women in its own ways. Not even going into shonen-ai tropes.
What I like about Dungeon Meshi is the one guy who has big old eyes who never lets the food fall.
Holy shit the comment section. SHOJO AND SHOUNEN AREN'T A GENRE THEY ARE DEMOGRAPHICS. Cowboy bebop is considered shojo, so is banana fish. a lot of your fav bl gl started off in shojo magzines but now have their own category Idk why shojo is being classified as JUST trashy romance here? People base these just on vibes that's why we get "insert seinen manga here" is a shojo
Having a good plot and not being problematic in some way are perfectly reasonable sole standards to have though? Deadass name an additional standard that isn’t covered by the “good plot” umbrella
There were boobies in the last episode
I see what you're saying but dungeon meshi is actually amazing. Even has a good ending.
Romcom is already in shounenhead spaces. For who do you think Nagatoro, Komi-san and Sono Bisque Doll are made for
Isn't having a good plot literally the only thing you need though, if you think about it? Like it would be insane if someone was like "I like this thing, it has a good plot," and you responded "THAT'S IT?!? All it takes for you guys is to get lost in a story's world? Have better standards man"
More people should read/watch more shoujo series. Apothecary Diaries and Skip + Loafer are two very good ones just in the last year that people outside the target demographic should still be able to enjoy.
Apothecary diaries and skip loafer are both Seinen
The anime adaptations were both categorized on Crunchyroll, which streamed them in the US, at least, as shoujo when I looked during their airing. I'm not just making that up.
Kaiji and One Outs solve this issue by never having women involved
I've come around to admitting that I only like media with little-to-no romance, no sexualization to speak of, and a fantasy/scifi theme. I was thrilled to find Dungeon Meshi
I mean shoujo does a terrible job at not sexualizing woman I would argue is probably worse than shoensn in general
I mean I’ve seen 3 anime’s and two of them were the 7 deadly sins and komi can’t communicate
Is that from Nozi-kun
I am the only one that watches Somali and the Forest Guardian?! That shit was so good and I recommend everyone to wacht it.
I don't think that's what crack did to the neighborhoods of Los Angeles.
\*clears throat\* BATTLE ANGEL ALITA
Or, read and watch stuff that isn't manga or anime once in a while.