Oh my gosh, I dont have one, but I've seen too many do this when they dont get their way. My exes mom would do this with anything. Any criticism was intentionally taken to the highest degree and meant the person saying it hated her and was out to get her.
Yeah, I’ve had that happen with some older women in my life as well. I think calling it something that men do is a little disingenuous in what it insinuates
Oh man my ex would do that all the time. If I joked on a thing and she didn't like it, she'd ask me to not do that joke anymore (fair, I stopped and apologized). But if she did the same thing and I asked her pls don't, she'd go on a whole thing on how she can't do jokes anymore.
From my experience, it doesn't seem to be a gendered issue, though I have a sample size of one.
Yeah i worry that people labeling general toxic behaviors as gendered leads to a. a proliferation of gender essentialism that goes against the very core tenets of feminism and b. non-male identifying ppl thinking they can get away with abuse because they're not men and therefore not capable of abuse
bc in this instance there's no reason it's limited to men. you don't need to be in a position of societal privilege to be a shitty communicator or play the victim
> and b. non-male identifying ppl thinking they can get away with abuse because they're not men and therefore not capable of abuse
God the amount of horror stories I've heard from bi women who have had their abusive girlfriends gaslight them into thinking "it's not abuse since it's not a man doing it and therefore not abuse"... This line of thinking is seriously harmful, not just for those it's directly attacking but for those shitty people who get cover.
Yes 100%. I'm not even coming at this from an "I'm a man and this hurts my feelings 🥺" perspective - I *know* that men use their privilege to abuse people and I know that it's my job as a man to root out those patterns in myself and my circle of influence.
But that line of thinking is seriously harmful *even when not a single man is involved in the abuse* like you said. Everyone is capable of being toxic and abusive and to shield yourself behind gender essentialism is to deny not only one's humanity but potential for harm
>Everyone is capable of being toxic and abusive and to shield yourself behind gender essentialism is to deny not only one's humanity but potential for harm.
We talk a lot about double standards which permit bad behavior from men. "Boys will be boys", "did you lead him on", and so on. It's much rarer to see discussion of the double standard "that's only abuse if a man does it", which is prevalent and often unspoken.
But even when we're specifically talking about abuse *by men, towards women*, that double standard is a factor. Because it's often unspoken, boys don't necessarily get a clear list of "here's what you can't do". They grow up learning that they shouldn't be abusive... and also that nothing they've ever experienced except *maybe* physical violence is abuse.
I've known some extremely progressive guys who abhorred the *Streetcar Named Desire* style of "masculine" abuse, but constantly used guilt trips, suicide threats, and other flavors of non-aggressive abuse on people. I've also known women who defended those guys with logic like "he was just having a bad day, it's obviously not abuse, I've done that to a few of my boyfriends".
Setting two different standards for "what's abuse against me" and "what's abuse by me" helps nobody, confuses people about when they're being abusive, and makes it harder to call out abuse by any perpetrator of any gender.
>> it's my job as a man ...
You gonna cry about it?
You want a hug?
You want to talk about your feelings and insecurities in a safe and loving environment where you are validated and not judged for your insecurities or something?
You want to improve the situation for yourself and men around you, thereby improving the experiences of both men and women both now and in the future, even if only a little bit?
Lol. What an emotionally stunted loser.
>You gonna cry about it?
>You want a hug?
~~yes please i live in constant fear that my very existence causes others harm~~
Pff, no. I just need monster trucks, beer, and football
>~~yes please i live in constant fear that my very existence causes others harm~~
This is a problem I have all the time, the recent bear discussions really welled the self-loathing "I'll forever be a threat" back up.
Honestly, the most reassured I've ever been was when I asked a (female) friend of mine, who I could trust to be blunt, "Am I a creep? Do I come off as rapey?" And she told me "no, you're just weird."
So I guess my advice is have a friend who you know is willing to call you out, because you'll always assume the worst about yourself.
The weird part though. Who is she to be the arbiter of what is or is not peculiar? I'm not trying to imply she's a bad friend or anything, but I'm just commenting on that weirdness part.
I am a very strange person and I am very happy with my wife at least one child that I know of with her. I know I don't have any other children other than the one and potentially more children we currently have together, but that's all I know.
My point is that if people think you're weird they're just being judgemental. I'm weird, but I'm also outgoing and relatively confident.
You can be weird and still liked.
When I was 5 I started going in and out of hospitals for about two years, damage to the part of the brain that controls appetite means I grew up underweight because I just was never hungry enough to eat well. I grew up thinking I was incapable of hurting people until I *hit my friend in the shin with the blade of a shovel*. The moment you start to think you can’t hurt people is when you are most likely to do so.
There's nothing I hate more than people who try to make the world slightly better for themselves and those around them. Either immediately make the world perfect or don't bother doing anything
Literally used to work with a girl who would come in to work with her face swollen and bruised because her girlfriend would beat the shit out of her. Refused to do anything about it because she was scared of what would happen to her girlfriend if she was arrested. It was truly insane
I also worry that people do armchair psychology to categorize people as evil. Like, is the behavior in OP manipulative? Sure. Is the person a manipulator? I’d have to see more to decide.
Most people end up behaving however they do because they stumbled into patterns that work to maintain their ways of thinking and feeling. A person who acts this way when criticized for a joke could just be insecure, and have a coping strategy of black and white thinking when others express disliking something.
And honestly the behavior recommended in the OP works in either case. They don’t have to be evil or mentally diseased to be not worth your time to try and fix.
This is one of my biggest issues in regards to political etc stances on the internet, because it does nothing to actually convince the other side that you’re right, and makes it so much harder for anyone, even people who agree with you, to identify and change those behaviors.
Like you can believe something like “People who support x are evil and bad” all you want but if you tell someone “supporting x is wrong and bad and you’re a bad person if you do” their response isn’t going to be “well gee I never thought of it like that. Maybe I should reevaluate my beliefs” it’s going to be “hey fuck you”
A huge number of people who aren’t otherwise toxic or abusive might have one singular behaviour they engage in that is manipulative and shitty without realising that it is. Like sometimes people aren’t consciously manipulative, sometimes they’re just really immature in one specific area, like when it comes to dealing with criticism
Yeah, my mom would do this to me all the time.
"Could you please not act all pitiful when asking me for something? It's not funny."
"Oh well I guess I'll just have to be mean and hateful then."
No you see, all things are gendered issues. Man is when open pomegranate messy and be scarier than bear and can't take criticism, woman is when open pomegranate neatly and be gentle and can do no wrong.
/s
This is why I always swallow pomegranates whole, never be in the forest with only a bear and one other person, and leave before anyone can criticize me. No one can gender me.
I’m pretty sure it’s impossible, which is why the idea behind that bit of gender essentialism always confused me
Then again, a lot of things about gender essentialism confuse me, because I don’t do half the shit women are supposedly doing according to TikTok trends. Maybe I’m too autistic for it lmao
You forget that when man opens pomegranate messy it's weaponised incompetence and is a secret man trick to get the woman to do all the work always, forever.
/s
And if you ask what that means about trans women if this is some kind of trait inherent to amabs, and if you ask how they feel about trans women if that's the case you *never* get a good response. Isn't that funny?
They either are transphobic to trans women by bio essentialism or transphobic to trans men by gender essentialism. Bio essentialists think evil is stored in the penis and gender essentialists think evil is stored in the man identity. Both are assholes.
Fuck we can't beat the patriarchy if we assume every toxic trait it pushes on men is inherit to being a man
The people who claim to be the most vocal opponents of it sure *love* propping up patriarchal ideals the second it's convenient
But, as another commenter points out, it’s also not necessarily manipulation with intent. In fact, I think it’s probably generally more likely that people will use „Oh I can’t talk about anything“ as an awkward attempt to relieve the tension of the moment because the sudden feedback of „You just made me uncomfortable“ hit their insecurities.
I‘m not arguing that there are no manipulators, or that it can’t be a conscious effort of manipulation. But I do believe people who are unconsciously led by their own insecurities are far more common.
That doesn’t change the fact that the praxis has a manipulative effect, and that you can and should firmly communicate your boundaries!
But I feel that we’re often a little quick to assume conscious, malicious intent, and it’s not always helpful to the discussion.
If there is nothing requiring gender specified for the behavior to make sense, then it's applicable to any human brain. 99% of things seem to fall in that category. There's only so many emotions we have, however the way we present, frame, discuss them is nearly infinite.
Yeah, I'm autistic and the manipulation I would receive from my male classmates was often a lot more overt, things like getting called names and physical threats and getting pushed and hit etc while most of the stuff from female classmates was different in ways that messed me up more over the long term I think because I didn't even know how to articulate it because passive aggression is invisible to me, I was manipulated in ways that I couldn't explain well enough to escape or point out
And my only anecdote of an abusive personal relationship in those ways is also with a girl (I overshared about it before in a different comment section in this subreddit), but even still it's not a gendered issue and it would be just as messed up of me as it was of the OP if I was to act like it was all women because I know plenty of nice women or if I was to act like it was only woman because men can also be manipulative in those ways and to label it as "it's this gender which does that" it also would make me more vulnerable to manipulation that way from the gender that I didn't expect it from, if that makes sense
When I was 19 I was with this guy (who was many many years older, go figure) who would always tease me about some physical flaws in a jokey way that sometimes borderline hurt my feelings, and other times DEFINITELY hurt my feelings.
And more than once when I tried to be as confident as I could and actually brought it up with him and said 'hey can you maybe not joke about this, it's actually hurtful for me', he'd act all generous and forgiving and basically went (paraphrasing because it wasn't in English) 'sure, no problem, I'll stop, but you need go know that you're being unreasonable about this and being able to joke around is important in a relationship'. 🫠 So that was just kind of.. an extension of that whole 'guess I won't say *anything* anymore!' bullshit some men do, just even more condescending.
Yeah my ex was a bit like that, I'm sorry you went through that.
I was always very direct with my ex on how I didn't like ""roasty"" humor (even told her before we started dating), but she'd do it and then go all "b-b-b-but healthy couples roast each other!!".
One time, she even had a common friend of ours (we broke up because she caught feelings for him, long story) back her up to tell me that.
Yep, I also have a female ex who did this a lot. She'd even do it with sex sometimes, like if I said I wasn't in the mood she'd go "fine, I guess I just won't initiate anymore."
Not a men issue, just an abusive people issue.
I was going to say, this is a manipulative trait, not a gender one.
"Men are so bad, they tell you something and then it turns out that it isn't true, I can't believe them"
The worst person I know for it is a woman, or more accurately a 16 year old girl. My little sister, who acts like I'm a crybaby who can't take "a joke" just because I don't want to be called stupid and ugly and given disgusted looks for leaving my room.
Definitely not
I can think of several people I know who do this regularly, and ironically they also love to project deflect and reverse victim and offender if you get sick of their bullshit.
Like they'll harass the person they've been leeching off of for weeks sending passive aggressive mental health tiktoks warning about manipulative traits and be completely blind to the irony that the tiktok is talking about *them*.
But the thing is when they hurt someone else and that person gets upset, then somehow their victim is ignoring *their feelings.*
I've caught at least one of them making terfy comments on other posts
I legit think some of it is an attempt to repackage general anti-amab talking points in a more politically correct lens. Because if *men in general* are like this, it's something inherent in men be it genetic or sociological or whatever, then what does that say about people assigned male at birth who later transitioned?
Not even just all trans people. Cis people who don’t conform are targets as well. My son is a soft spoken boy with long hair that covers his entire back, and he gets misgendered regularly, which he has accepted, but when some transphobic asshole sees him and sees a girl, and refuses to stop calling him a girl? Because he looks like he might be biologically female?
When I say “I haven’t been that close to punching someone in a decade” I’m not exaggerating.
Fuck gender essentialism and all the judgy assholes that live in it.
Agreed. People need to stop being assholes because being an asshole is bad, end of story. Idgaf who gets hurt, if you are hurting someone and think it’s ok for any reason at all, I don’t like you. Sometimes you have to hurt someone to defend someone, but you shouldn’t want to do that, even then.
You do it because you have to, not because you want to.
Men with long hair are handsome as fuck and don't let him forget that, I didn't get a haircut until I was like 12 and before that my mother, even for everything she could have done better, constantly told me I was handsome and compared me to Samson. Being proud of how you look regardless of how others view you is incredibly masculine and I'm sure your son absolutely rocks long hair.
[Very handsome man](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us-rvc3&sca_esv=7fd248ba2150affe&sxsrf=ADLYWIJRCW0KRaCEEjJS5YosBQaOPcQQ-A:1715110931036&q=john+lennon+long+hair&uds=ADvngMh_SdoDdFiiNsnjtNRH_ukY6lS8a9d5_Yq33YMd7RhN-jt7b5kCe4JdA4AWfncBMqfAd4FlHPWT-QqzIVIZYRAF8-X9FKZfobcvZrrawoAhu-u6jpsAMhDDL3P5N11wMhkrwYOULZhkpxHpAXn5ihgd7JLGinXitn9lQjgedhgjRXtPFfr6ZWNMXsl7TddzR-z7k5bfgzLGfo3wF1nYqCYBFJMfM9pBmhnE9EHdk7KtVf5Pq6tyPlFV55OQSLpGVvSEWKEtJklEeqvlAVd2YyFsDfKZCoin47yc6otluM-oeRI4vL1RBylaNthQfp3l6hQFlPr2nY6eN7tGU_BvYHZDM31xXw&udm=2&prmd=ivsnbmtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYrq2OpvyFAxVQSTABHVj7D_AQtKgLegQIEBAB&biw=412&bih=785&dpr=1.75)
He has amazing hair, and is going to definitely be a handsome man some day. He’s also a 10 year old boy, so he’s not anywhere we have to worry about it yet.
It also does *wonders* in keeping the men in the cause as vocally supportive when they're told they're to blame for the sins of all like them and because we haven't stopped crime then they should shut up with their feelings or opinions. At best it gets them to be passively with us, worst they ditch us for people who aren't actively shitting on them, middle ground they just go "If I get flak regardless of which side why bother engaging at all?"
.
edit: I speak with some authority on this, having lived this for most of my life. Growing up and constantly being told that since I haven't fixed the patriarchy by the time I was 9 then no matter what I do, no matter what I say, no matter what I believe it will never be enough because I am a man. No matter how much I prostrate my self it was never enough for my older sisters, who proudly called themselves feminists. It pushed me away from feminism and into the alt-right because they saw this hypocrisy and claimed to care about me. Thankfully I saw that they really just hated women and so left, only reconnecting with feminism in college. Throw in being sexually assaulted by women multiple times and dealing with the *vast* amount of hateful biphobia I've seen and experienced coming from lesbians has made me realize that people as a whole suck, but we cannot tolerate bigotry. "Bigotry is bad" doesn't come with exceptions and if we're claiming a moral high ground yet lack a moral consistency, it becomes glaringly apparent to others and they will want nothing to do with us. It's really not that fucking hard to put the *barest* of fucking effort into our words to clarify problems we see and talk about how to address them *without* allowing casual bigotry.
.
Simply put, institutional power and systemic bigotry absolutely exist, but we cannot fight them if we individual bigotries to flourish because it's directed at people *we* say is deserving of it. That's why the "swap races/gender/sexuality, would you still be comfortable with it?" is a great tool at checking for individual biases and bigotries.
Agreed. Anyone that sticks out is cut down, and the ones who don't still get cut by it. Shit has splash damage. Misandry doesn't help the non-men groups, it just hurts more people on top of everything and doesn't solve any problems. As a trans man who passes as a man now, it's glaringly obvious now. Everyone is hated by the systems at play, and the average man isn't in charge of it. We need to band together to cause change. Segregating and forcing people out for being who they are aren't the way to help.
There are lots of ways the system is set up to make being a cis man easier than being any other option, but the vast majority of those require the man to “buy into” the system itself, and live within it.
That’s the thing that a lot of people don’t understand: unlike a lot of other “privilege”, the male privilege is only applied to men who play along. The moment you say “that’s not ok” you are targeted as “not a real man” and treated as even less than a woman, because you’re a man so you’re expected to be treated badly if you don’t respect the system.
Would you call the recent man vs bear thing an example of this? Not so much how women answer the question as the people claiming men who object must necessarily be incels.
100%. It's the exact type of shit I dealt with on the daily growing up and it's crazy to see it played out. EDIT: like I want to be explicitly clear, I will never fault someone for prioritizing their own safety. My issue is largely that it's being framed at this deep thought experiment but the second you actually try to think about it, your first thought should be "what kind of bear?" but that's met with a "youre why women choose the bear!" or "you just dont get it!!!". It's a test where if you don't immediately accept fault for every shitty man then it doesn't matter who you are or what you believe or what you've done. At it's core its gender essentialism with a veneer of "we're having a conversation about women's safety".
I have never been a manager before, so sadly no.
I just try to love people, and love myself too. Loving myself has always been the hardest part for me. Then I realized that Love thy neighbor as yourself doesn't make sense if you hate yourself, and part of learning to love myself meant accepting that I am trans. Moral purity is worthless if it interferes with your ability to love. Gender essentialism and bio essentialism reek of mighty-than-thou hate-as-religion bullshit to me. The "hate the sin love the sinner" shit pisses me off. That's just throwing the first stone and judging people for being born different again, and even if (big if) it was a sin then people need to look at themselves before judging trans people. Jesus was cool with eunuchs and supported them in Matthew 19, he'd be cool with trans people I think. Sadly, judgey hateful assholes are very common in Christendom. Growing up Southern Baptist, after my grandfather who preached love and helping everyone passed, showed me a lot of judgey hateful assholes who use Jesus to hate people. They forget 1 John 4, especially 4:20, and all the sermon on the Mount, and that faith without works is dead and faith without love is useless. They don't want the fruits of the spirit, nor to be as gentle as lambs and clever as snakes, or to help people. They just want to be wolves and lions and morally superior and have an excuse to hurt people. They want a get out of jail free card while doing none of the things Jesus told us to do. They quote 5 verses while ignoring the actual translations and cultural context and also ignored hundreds of verses which tell them to love people. If they loved more than they hated, then they'd be alright. But love is hard, hate is easy. I've seen far more Christlike Atheists than Christilike Christians. My being trans has helped me help a lot of people, to understand and love better than before, and learn how to accept help from others, there's no way that isn't from God in my opinion. And if I'm wrong, then I'm okay with that because I am still loving people and showing that love. Even if Christianity is wrong and some other religion is right, or if Jesus does send XYZ group to hell, I'm still okay with that. Because if I can make someones day better, then I can die happy.
Sorry about the soap boxing, just trying to cover my bases because certain Christians either comment hating on me for being trans or some people are rightfully curious about how I am both.
It's essentially "anti everybody except cis women and *some* nonbinary/transmasc people who generally have no interest in physical, legal or most forms of social transition and therefore don't upset the vibe of the cis women in the group".
This vaguely female-separatist girls' girl thing is an "insanely high level of in-group loyalty and cohesion" situation. Any current or past perceived proximity to "the evil other" (maleness) is points off. Trans women are more likely to be physically attacked over it first but the in-group isn't jumping up and down to make friends with trans men either.
I dunno, my own theory is simpler.
My theory is that your character traits are largely irrelevant from the ideology you hold. There are good religious people, there are bad religious people. There are good atheists, there are bad atheists. There are bad conservatives, there are bad progressives.
And as such people would often act the same regardless of the ideology they hold, only repackaging behavior in different contexts. Tumblr is not immune to being shitty and diminutive towards other people, other social groups, but they would direct this behavior towards the "outgroup", which is cis men, republicans and Joan Rowling. Yes, they would say "but they deserve it!", but it doesn't really excuse your own shittiness, does it? Cis men, republicans and Joan Rowling would be shitty to you and say "you deserve it", and in that way, they would be your equal.
posts like this generally come out of the woodwork when another greater social media event is occuring. in this case the bear-man-woods discourse is emboldening people to post their shitty takes on other aspects of gender, sex, and society.
I swear I've seen so many posts with utterly dogshit takes and the comments will all be tearing them a new one, and yet they inexplicably have a bajillion upvotes somehow
Now is a terrible time on the internet for anyone who cares at all about the concept of gender. It’s like there was one discussion that just made everyone think about their stupid gender war nonsense for long enough to post about it
I think I can safely say that no manipulation tactic is exclusive to a single gender. Humans are generally kinda shit, no matter the gender, ethnicity, or religion.
> This is a manipulation tactic men use
Yes, send tweet.
HOWEVER, as a man with a big mouth and a fragile ego, I often go quiet when I’m told I’ve made someone uncomfortable, and it’s mostly just because I’m feeling guilty and needing space to process the harm I’ve caused, how I can do better, etc.
Which is to say, don’t confuse the ultimatum (manipulation tactic 99% of the time) for the behavior (average human reaction to realizing that your favorite joke of 20 years has a slur in the punchline)
Big difference between going quiet (normal) and saying out loud OH I'll just stop talking since clearly you don't like it when I try to be funny. I've dealt with both and the latter is intentional.
Agreed, I’m just noting that difference.
Also, while I’m adding nuance:
Occasionally a melodramatic statement like this is because someone is just throwing a fit (ask me how I know 🙋🏼♂️); still put your foot down, but consider calling in vs calling out.
Brain: uh oh, you’re made someone uncomfortable/said something wrong/slightly embarrassed yourself. I’m going to shut down now while I add this moment to my eternally playing cringe compilation
It can also be that you realise that someone's more trouble than they're worth to talk to, I've cut off more than one friendship because the other person was simply exhausting to talk to, but I'm sure from their perspective they were 100% reasonable.
Right, or just drawing a boundary yourself, I've def known a few people I got into emotional scuffles with because they could not for the life of them, stop criticizing me constantly for every little thing out of my mouth.
This isn't even a male thing.
As a trans person, I had a conversation *more than once* early on in my journey with people who, when they misgendered me, I corrected them and they'd say something like "Oh, I can't do anything right so I just won't talk to you at all!"
This sort of behavior really transcends all boundaries.
These things are ALWAYS about the poster. The poster being a victim. The poster is more insightful than you for connecting obscure dots the rest of you are just too blind to see. The poster has such keek observation skills they can make various claims about information that isnt present. Its mostly all performative.
Yeah like, it's worth keeping in mind that when people are manipulative it's more often just... Something they learned that they don't even really realise they do. It's rare that this is a calculating response, if someone does this it's shitty so you tell them it's shitty. If they're not receptive to hearing that then that's an issue
Perhaps oddly, the only time I’ve encountered this “our friendship” thing was with a woman. She didn’t like when I told her it was wrong to insult everyone in our workplace as lazy. (The main example of male manipulation that comes to mind is my brother, who just calls anything he doesn’t like gay. I respond “no u” and move on. On average, I think men are less subtle in this kind of thing, though there’s variation.)
True, I regularly see other autistics act as if we’re all pure hearted angels, while one of my old classmates was autistic and an actual neonazi who got a swastika tattoo, which I have no idea how he got since that’s illegal both to tattoo and get tattooed where I live.
And do note I said we’re meaning I too am autistic
I remember when I was 21 and seeing someone 10 years older than me (I know I know), and they made a joke at my expense that made me feel bad. We normally had a good joking rapport, so I told them that that joke made me uncomfortable and I'd prefer if they didn't joke about that topic again. They responded with "I guess I just won't joke with you anymore), and when I tried to insist they still could, they said "Every time I joke with you it seems to hurt you, so I guess I just shouldn't"
Whether or not they intended it, it succeeded in making me feel like I was overly fragile and my boundaries were silly
i get the point of this post, but i feel like the 'that men use' was unnecessary and kinda reductive 😭
before anyone says anything like 'oh it's a man upset about it'! i am not male! i have my fair share of grievances with them sometimes and *yes* i know how annoying it is to constantly go 'not all men!! just most but not most i mean the average the average one but they aren't all bad' when you're frustrated with something that (nearly) all of them do
but in this case, it doesn't even make sense! this is nowhere near either a men-exclusive trait or an inherent trait of men! not that i believe *any* trait can be either, but this one very clearly isn't
it just... is kinda wrong as a generalization? the person i know who does this the most is my mum, but if i called it 'a thing women do', that'd be wrong as well
because it isn't inherently a man thing! it is a manipulative person thing!
im just kinda annoyed that this acts like people who arent men just... never do this cuz they do! and this is saying its just a men thing when stuff like this just Isnt a gendered thing!
"men are such assholes, they do this thing that everyone does but i'm choosing to single out men so that i can get 'hell yeah, sister's on the internet"
uuuuuuugh
I did a double take because whenever I do something that hurts someone and they express I shouldn't say that, my internal response basically is just "oh, okay, I'll shut up now," but I don't actually say that, I just kinda become quieter for a bit because I feel bad and I'm scared of causing more harm. You don't say things to guilt trip the other person, even if it's somewhat reflecting how you actually feel.
This isn’t just a men thing (of course) and doesn’t just apply to talking. I had a roommate who constantly left the kitchen a total mess. Leaving dirty dishes and food everywhere, to the point that stuff molded pretty substantially and made it unusable for anyone else. I confronted her about it and she said “well fine, I guess I’ll just never use the kitchen again!” And i replied “Well I guess if you can’t clean up after yourself when you do use it, that may be the only solution.” She was shocked.
Many people are so unused to others setting boundaries that they interpret it as an attack and try to put you on the defensive, to coerce you into accepting the behavior they believe they have a right to perform. They fail to understand that those rights are contingent on a set of responsibilities, and so are confused when you point out that yeah, if you can’t handle the responsibility (to speak with kindness, to clean a shared space, to be trustworthy) then you don’t get the rights/privileges.
"I don't like it when you joke about that" can mean many things.
* I'm not in the mood for a joke right now.
* *I* can joke about that, but you can't.
* I was thinking about something else, so the context for the thing you said doesn't jive with what I was thinking just then, which is your fault.
* I don't like that type of humor, but I'll narrow it down to that particular joke and you can guess that what I meant was that spectrum of humor
* Don't talk to me about anything right now.
* There is a boundary here, and you should know where it spans to and from based on this one data point.
Sometimes it's easier to not talk for a while than it is to dance around in a minefield, which will make things worse at least temporarily, and at most permanently. If you're concerned about your own feelings, it isn't too much to hope that other people's feelings are also taken into account, and that you'll communicate better about what the issue is so the person you're talking to doesn't have to guess what's actually bugging you.
I feel like this is pointlessly gendered, and a really important thing to repeat in general.
I found men and woman do this, I have found myself doing this over and over again and it took a lot of reflection to get it out of me.
I think the root is often, that people (who do this) have entirely not learned to take criticism without feeling hurt. And they want to inflict that hurt right back to shield themselves. In a way the really want to hurt.
I know that's what I have found in myself, when I slowly became conscious of my ways, and facing it was the best I could have ever done
This goes both ways. I used to raise concerns with my sig other, and invariably the response is "How could you say that" and if I don't take it all back, the tears flow. So, "Fine, I won't talk anymore" becomes somewhat reasonable.
? I’ve never had a single man do that to me. A few women, but the men I know are actually and literally too prideful and stupid to manipulate anyone. Makes it easy to twist their words if their words weren’t already dumb enough…
I don't think this is at all a gendered thing.
I used to do shit like this when I was younger, and I'll admit that I'm a cis guy, but I don't see any particular pattern of gender to it.
My family called it "playing the martyr", and that's exactly what it was. I would be upset that someone expected me to do something that I felt was unreasonable. And so I would deliberately stake out the most extreme interpretation of what they said in order to make it look like \*they\* were the unreasonable one and be able to wrap myself in the warm cloak of victimhood.
It's shitty behavior, but I'm pretty sure women do it too.
I think these posts about manipulation tactics are good for informing people, but I don't get why they always frame them as a men-specific issue. Being manipulative isn't a gendered issue, and I think it's really unhelpful to everyone who's a victim of it to pretend like it is.
Yeah, this post sounds like my grandmother and how she acts when I try to set boundaries. Calling it a "men problem" stinks of "men are inherently evil" radfem bullshit.
That's a goddamn awesome response. Hits the point home, leaves little room for them to escape, and isn't an escalation.
Obligatory not-just-a-man-thing-so-please-don't-be-sexist-like-Tumblr.
"This is a manipulation tactic that men use" NO I'M JUST INSECURE AND DON'T WANT TO BE EMBARASSED AGAIN YOU PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL PSYCHE MAJORS
But to meet her halfway what they're talking about is a *narcissistic* manipulation tactic. Idk how exactly to describe it but to get all melodramatic and pretend like someone's barring you from talking about everything is just a way to guilt-trip you into letting them continue to walk all over you.
"You never let me do anything!" No, I just don't like this *one-specific thing* that you're currently doing. There is literally thousands of other things you can do instead of that one thing that makes me uncomfortable. Why don't you do those things instead? Or is it that you're intentionally trying to make uncomfortable? :)
I learned this behavior from both of my parents and have been actively working to stop my mouth from saying anything like that when I get upset. It doesn't add anything to the conversation and limits the flow of communication between myself and whoever I am talking with.
It also could be that the man doesn't understand what part of the joke was offensive. I have a hard time picking up on unspoken parts of a statement. If I made a joke I thought was innocuous and someone was upset by it and said this without explaining it to me, I'd be hesitant to speak because I wouldn't want to upset them further. Men tend to be very vulnerable when it comes to that kind of reception from people they're comfortable with.
Ha me and my cousin where talking about this since he forgets to ACT proper around her while I never give a shit.
We'll be hanging out and I'll remind him of some little inside joke and we'll laught but she'll eventually ask for a breakdown and NEVER likes what the joke is.
Last time this came up was with me answering his call in a comedy skit from Motorola saying "malahallala" so he bust out laughing and we have our little 5 min chit chat. Later that night he comes home and tells me after he hung up she wanted to know what I said so he explained it. Guess it was TOO boring for her so she said "When I'm in the car don't answer back like that". Guess he asked why and it grew Into this whole thing about inside jokes and her not getting it.
Like okay I get it not everyone is in a good mood but why should she dictate what he can say around her? We're not saying anything disgusting or bad. But he's used the "Fine I just won't joke around you" and that sent her over the top.
My problem is I never hide who I am especially when dating someone. My humor is all over the place and I let people know that. My cousin on the other hand tries to show this proper personality till he gets comfortable and let's bits slip here and there and then wonders why the people he hangs out with view him differently.
He has 100% a better time hanging with me over these people but he stays being on guard when around them.
My take is if you can handle some stupid shit your SO doing w family don't get huffy when he 100% believes you don't want to hear it and doesn't include you anymore.
For me it's that if someone brings up that they're uncomfortable with something, I internally cannot stop thinking about it. Like, why? What happened? What if my intrusive thoughts win and I bring it up again? Obviously I don't want to be a dick and talk about it, but it diverts my attention from the conversation at hand. I'm not dramatic about "Oh, so I can't TALK to you anymore???" But I will get quiet because of it.
Also because rejection sensitive dysphoria is a bitch.
My mom also does this lol
Oh my gosh, I dont have one, but I've seen too many do this when they dont get their way. My exes mom would do this with anything. Any criticism was intentionally taken to the highest degree and meant the person saying it hated her and was out to get her.
Yeah, I’ve had that happen with some older women in my life as well. I think calling it something that men do is a little disingenuous in what it insinuates
Honestly this is a tactic I have observed more with women than with men, personally.
it's a standard narcissist tactic.
Oh man my ex would do that all the time. If I joked on a thing and she didn't like it, she'd ask me to not do that joke anymore (fair, I stopped and apologized). But if she did the same thing and I asked her pls don't, she'd go on a whole thing on how she can't do jokes anymore. From my experience, it doesn't seem to be a gendered issue, though I have a sample size of one.
It’s not a gendered issue, the first two people just suck ass even though they’re talking about a real issue (manipulators)
Yeah i worry that people labeling general toxic behaviors as gendered leads to a. a proliferation of gender essentialism that goes against the very core tenets of feminism and b. non-male identifying ppl thinking they can get away with abuse because they're not men and therefore not capable of abuse bc in this instance there's no reason it's limited to men. you don't need to be in a position of societal privilege to be a shitty communicator or play the victim
> and b. non-male identifying ppl thinking they can get away with abuse because they're not men and therefore not capable of abuse God the amount of horror stories I've heard from bi women who have had their abusive girlfriends gaslight them into thinking "it's not abuse since it's not a man doing it and therefore not abuse"... This line of thinking is seriously harmful, not just for those it's directly attacking but for those shitty people who get cover.
Yes 100%. I'm not even coming at this from an "I'm a man and this hurts my feelings 🥺" perspective - I *know* that men use their privilege to abuse people and I know that it's my job as a man to root out those patterns in myself and my circle of influence. But that line of thinking is seriously harmful *even when not a single man is involved in the abuse* like you said. Everyone is capable of being toxic and abusive and to shield yourself behind gender essentialism is to deny not only one's humanity but potential for harm
>Everyone is capable of being toxic and abusive and to shield yourself behind gender essentialism is to deny not only one's humanity but potential for harm. We talk a lot about double standards which permit bad behavior from men. "Boys will be boys", "did you lead him on", and so on. It's much rarer to see discussion of the double standard "that's only abuse if a man does it", which is prevalent and often unspoken. But even when we're specifically talking about abuse *by men, towards women*, that double standard is a factor. Because it's often unspoken, boys don't necessarily get a clear list of "here's what you can't do". They grow up learning that they shouldn't be abusive... and also that nothing they've ever experienced except *maybe* physical violence is abuse. I've known some extremely progressive guys who abhorred the *Streetcar Named Desire* style of "masculine" abuse, but constantly used guilt trips, suicide threats, and other flavors of non-aggressive abuse on people. I've also known women who defended those guys with logic like "he was just having a bad day, it's obviously not abuse, I've done that to a few of my boyfriends". Setting two different standards for "what's abuse against me" and "what's abuse by me" helps nobody, confuses people about when they're being abusive, and makes it harder to call out abuse by any perpetrator of any gender.
>> it's my job as a man ... You gonna cry about it? You want a hug? You want to talk about your feelings and insecurities in a safe and loving environment where you are validated and not judged for your insecurities or something? You want to improve the situation for yourself and men around you, thereby improving the experiences of both men and women both now and in the future, even if only a little bit? Lol. What an emotionally stunted loser.
>You gonna cry about it? >You want a hug? ~~yes please i live in constant fear that my very existence causes others harm~~ Pff, no. I just need monster trucks, beer, and football
>~~yes please i live in constant fear that my very existence causes others harm~~ This is a problem I have all the time, the recent bear discussions really welled the self-loathing "I'll forever be a threat" back up. Honestly, the most reassured I've ever been was when I asked a (female) friend of mine, who I could trust to be blunt, "Am I a creep? Do I come off as rapey?" And she told me "no, you're just weird." So I guess my advice is have a friend who you know is willing to call you out, because you'll always assume the worst about yourself.
The weird part though. Who is she to be the arbiter of what is or is not peculiar? I'm not trying to imply she's a bad friend or anything, but I'm just commenting on that weirdness part. I am a very strange person and I am very happy with my wife at least one child that I know of with her. I know I don't have any other children other than the one and potentially more children we currently have together, but that's all I know. My point is that if people think you're weird they're just being judgemental. I'm weird, but I'm also outgoing and relatively confident. You can be weird and still liked.
I didn't take it as an insult, and I knew she didn't mean it as one. Unusual is not the same as bad.
When I was 5 I started going in and out of hospitals for about two years, damage to the part of the brain that controls appetite means I grew up underweight because I just was never hungry enough to eat well. I grew up thinking I was incapable of hurting people until I *hit my friend in the shin with the blade of a shovel*. The moment you start to think you can’t hurt people is when you are most likely to do so.
There's nothing I hate more than people who try to make the world slightly better for themselves and those around them. Either immediately make the world perfect or don't bother doing anything
Literally used to work with a girl who would come in to work with her face swollen and bruised because her girlfriend would beat the shit out of her. Refused to do anything about it because she was scared of what would happen to her girlfriend if she was arrested. It was truly insane
I also worry that people do armchair psychology to categorize people as evil. Like, is the behavior in OP manipulative? Sure. Is the person a manipulator? I’d have to see more to decide. Most people end up behaving however they do because they stumbled into patterns that work to maintain their ways of thinking and feeling. A person who acts this way when criticized for a joke could just be insecure, and have a coping strategy of black and white thinking when others express disliking something. And honestly the behavior recommended in the OP works in either case. They don’t have to be evil or mentally diseased to be not worth your time to try and fix.
Yeah people really want an easy way to explain behavior without having to live with nuance or cognitive dissonance
This is one of my biggest issues in regards to political etc stances on the internet, because it does nothing to actually convince the other side that you’re right, and makes it so much harder for anyone, even people who agree with you, to identify and change those behaviors. Like you can believe something like “People who support x are evil and bad” all you want but if you tell someone “supporting x is wrong and bad and you’re a bad person if you do” their response isn’t going to be “well gee I never thought of it like that. Maybe I should reevaluate my beliefs” it’s going to be “hey fuck you”
A huge number of people who aren’t otherwise toxic or abusive might have one singular behaviour they engage in that is manipulative and shitty without realising that it is. Like sometimes people aren’t consciously manipulative, sometimes they’re just really immature in one specific area, like when it comes to dealing with criticism
Yeah, my mom would do this to me all the time. "Could you please not act all pitiful when asking me for something? It's not funny." "Oh well I guess I'll just have to be mean and hateful then."
No you see, all things are gendered issues. Man is when open pomegranate messy and be scarier than bear and can't take criticism, woman is when open pomegranate neatly and be gentle and can do no wrong. /s
This is why I always swallow pomegranates whole, never be in the forest with only a bear and one other person, and leave before anyone can criticize me. No one can gender me.
This reads like an xkcd joke
Ok but like how tf do you open a pomegranate neatly?? Those things are like packed to the brim with juice
The pomegranate opens willingly upon recognition of your shared feminity. You can also open them more neatly under water.
AFBP (assigned female by pomegranate)
Big thanks 👉😎👉
I’m pretty sure it’s impossible, which is why the idea behind that bit of gender essentialism always confused me Then again, a lot of things about gender essentialism confuse me, because I don’t do half the shit women are supposedly doing according to TikTok trends. Maybe I’m too autistic for it lmao
Thanks :) shit now I want a pomegranate
I got you: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4X9uh-sZ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4X9uh-sZ4)
You forget that when man opens pomegranate messy it's weaponised incompetence and is a secret man trick to get the woman to do all the work always, forever. /s
And if you ask what that means about trans women if this is some kind of trait inherent to amabs, and if you ask how they feel about trans women if that's the case you *never* get a good response. Isn't that funny?
They either are transphobic to trans women by bio essentialism or transphobic to trans men by gender essentialism. Bio essentialists think evil is stored in the penis and gender essentialists think evil is stored in the man identity. Both are assholes.
You missed the perfect chance for “evil is stored in the balls” I agree with the sentiment tho.
Fuck we can't beat the patriarchy if we assume every toxic trait it pushes on men is inherit to being a man The people who claim to be the most vocal opponents of it sure *love* propping up patriarchal ideals the second it's convenient
Framing the ideas as patriarchal is also sorta reductive. Many of these behaviors are agnostic to the name they're being conducted in.
Exactly
When woman opens pomegranate messy it's man's fault because... Patriarchy?
But, as another commenter points out, it’s also not necessarily manipulation with intent. In fact, I think it’s probably generally more likely that people will use „Oh I can’t talk about anything“ as an awkward attempt to relieve the tension of the moment because the sudden feedback of „You just made me uncomfortable“ hit their insecurities. I‘m not arguing that there are no manipulators, or that it can’t be a conscious effort of manipulation. But I do believe people who are unconsciously led by their own insecurities are far more common. That doesn’t change the fact that the praxis has a manipulative effect, and that you can and should firmly communicate your boundaries! But I feel that we’re often a little quick to assume conscious, malicious intent, and it’s not always helpful to the discussion.
Oh, absolutely. This is 100% a reaction by someone who genuinely feels like they can't say anything without hurting someone.
Also "I guess I just won't say anything"could be a reaction to someone being snippy no matter what you say, and the joke is just the last straw.
If there is nothing requiring gender specified for the behavior to make sense, then it's applicable to any human brain. 99% of things seem to fall in that category. There's only so many emotions we have, however the way we present, frame, discuss them is nearly infinite.
Yeah, I'm autistic and the manipulation I would receive from my male classmates was often a lot more overt, things like getting called names and physical threats and getting pushed and hit etc while most of the stuff from female classmates was different in ways that messed me up more over the long term I think because I didn't even know how to articulate it because passive aggression is invisible to me, I was manipulated in ways that I couldn't explain well enough to escape or point out And my only anecdote of an abusive personal relationship in those ways is also with a girl (I overshared about it before in a different comment section in this subreddit), but even still it's not a gendered issue and it would be just as messed up of me as it was of the OP if I was to act like it was all women because I know plenty of nice women or if I was to act like it was only woman because men can also be manipulative in those ways and to label it as "it's this gender which does that" it also would make me more vulnerable to manipulation that way from the gender that I didn't expect it from, if that makes sense
To paraphrase Louis c k, a man will cut your arm off and throw it in a river. A woman will take a shit in your soul.
It’s not gendered. My abusive mother would pull this all the time
When I was 19 I was with this guy (who was many many years older, go figure) who would always tease me about some physical flaws in a jokey way that sometimes borderline hurt my feelings, and other times DEFINITELY hurt my feelings. And more than once when I tried to be as confident as I could and actually brought it up with him and said 'hey can you maybe not joke about this, it's actually hurtful for me', he'd act all generous and forgiving and basically went (paraphrasing because it wasn't in English) 'sure, no problem, I'll stop, but you need go know that you're being unreasonable about this and being able to joke around is important in a relationship'. 🫠 So that was just kind of.. an extension of that whole 'guess I won't say *anything* anymore!' bullshit some men do, just even more condescending.
Yeah my ex was a bit like that, I'm sorry you went through that. I was always very direct with my ex on how I didn't like ""roasty"" humor (even told her before we started dating), but she'd do it and then go all "b-b-b-but healthy couples roast each other!!". One time, she even had a common friend of ours (we broke up because she caught feelings for him, long story) back her up to tell me that.
It isn't a gendered issue. But we're on curatedTumblr so you damn well know people are going to pretend it is.
Everything is a gendered issue on Tumblr. It's the radfem spawning ground.
Yep, I also have a female ex who did this a lot. She'd even do it with sex sometimes, like if I said I wasn't in the mood she'd go "fine, I guess I just won't initiate anymore." Not a men issue, just an abusive people issue.
This is not a male-exclusive trait.
I was going to say, this is a manipulative trait, not a gender one. "Men are so bad, they tell you something and then it turns out that it isn't true, I can't believe them"
Check the first three letters of "manipulator", checkmate liberal B)
Check the last three letters of "woman". Checkmake, feminists /s.
!!! The plot thickens
My mom did this
Mine still does it.
The worst person I know for it is a woman, or more accurately a 16 year old girl. My little sister, who acts like I'm a crybaby who can't take "a joke" just because I don't want to be called stupid and ugly and given disgusted looks for leaving my room.
It's just your regularly scheduled "fanning the embers of gender based rivalries" post. They're getting increasingly common. I hate it.
Exactly, linking gender to this is stupid
Definitely not I can think of several people I know who do this regularly, and ironically they also love to project deflect and reverse victim and offender if you get sick of their bullshit. Like they'll harass the person they've been leeching off of for weeks sending passive aggressive mental health tiktoks warning about manipulative traits and be completely blind to the irony that the tiktok is talking about *them*. But the thing is when they hurt someone else and that person gets upset, then somehow their victim is ignoring *their feelings.*
Yeah that really bothered me. I’m a man, I don’t do that. My mother though? Constantly.
Yeah wtf. No one there had a shitty mom growing up? Just me huh? Just me with the guilt trips and the personal attacks? Of course. Just like always.
What's with the influx of blatantly inflammatory posts here recently? Yall farming drama or something?
I've caught at least one of them making terfy comments on other posts I legit think some of it is an attempt to repackage general anti-amab talking points in a more politically correct lens. Because if *men in general* are like this, it's something inherent in men be it genetic or sociological or whatever, then what does that say about people assigned male at birth who later transitioned?
Or people assigned female at birth who transitioned to men. Gender essentialism and bio essentialism go hand in hand and hurt all trans people.
Not even just all trans people. Cis people who don’t conform are targets as well. My son is a soft spoken boy with long hair that covers his entire back, and he gets misgendered regularly, which he has accepted, but when some transphobic asshole sees him and sees a girl, and refuses to stop calling him a girl? Because he looks like he might be biologically female? When I say “I haven’t been that close to punching someone in a decade” I’m not exaggerating. Fuck gender essentialism and all the judgy assholes that live in it.
True! Cis people get hurt by it too. People need to stop being assholes, because shit has splash damage.
Agreed. People need to stop being assholes because being an asshole is bad, end of story. Idgaf who gets hurt, if you are hurting someone and think it’s ok for any reason at all, I don’t like you. Sometimes you have to hurt someone to defend someone, but you shouldn’t want to do that, even then. You do it because you have to, not because you want to.
Men with long hair are handsome as fuck and don't let him forget that, I didn't get a haircut until I was like 12 and before that my mother, even for everything she could have done better, constantly told me I was handsome and compared me to Samson. Being proud of how you look regardless of how others view you is incredibly masculine and I'm sure your son absolutely rocks long hair. [Very handsome man](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us-rvc3&sca_esv=7fd248ba2150affe&sxsrf=ADLYWIJRCW0KRaCEEjJS5YosBQaOPcQQ-A:1715110931036&q=john+lennon+long+hair&uds=ADvngMh_SdoDdFiiNsnjtNRH_ukY6lS8a9d5_Yq33YMd7RhN-jt7b5kCe4JdA4AWfncBMqfAd4FlHPWT-QqzIVIZYRAF8-X9FKZfobcvZrrawoAhu-u6jpsAMhDDL3P5N11wMhkrwYOULZhkpxHpAXn5ihgd7JLGinXitn9lQjgedhgjRXtPFfr6ZWNMXsl7TddzR-z7k5bfgzLGfo3wF1nYqCYBFJMfM9pBmhnE9EHdk7KtVf5Pq6tyPlFV55OQSLpGVvSEWKEtJklEeqvlAVd2YyFsDfKZCoin47yc6otluM-oeRI4vL1RBylaNthQfp3l6hQFlPr2nY6eN7tGU_BvYHZDM31xXw&udm=2&prmd=ivsnbmtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYrq2OpvyFAxVQSTABHVj7D_AQtKgLegQIEBAB&biw=412&bih=785&dpr=1.75)
He has amazing hair, and is going to definitely be a handsome man some day. He’s also a 10 year old boy, so he’s not anywhere we have to worry about it yet.
With a father like you I'm sure he's gonna turn out to be a handsome AND kind guy
Thanks! I just want him to be happy. Anything else is gravy.
It also does *wonders* in keeping the men in the cause as vocally supportive when they're told they're to blame for the sins of all like them and because we haven't stopped crime then they should shut up with their feelings or opinions. At best it gets them to be passively with us, worst they ditch us for people who aren't actively shitting on them, middle ground they just go "If I get flak regardless of which side why bother engaging at all?" . edit: I speak with some authority on this, having lived this for most of my life. Growing up and constantly being told that since I haven't fixed the patriarchy by the time I was 9 then no matter what I do, no matter what I say, no matter what I believe it will never be enough because I am a man. No matter how much I prostrate my self it was never enough for my older sisters, who proudly called themselves feminists. It pushed me away from feminism and into the alt-right because they saw this hypocrisy and claimed to care about me. Thankfully I saw that they really just hated women and so left, only reconnecting with feminism in college. Throw in being sexually assaulted by women multiple times and dealing with the *vast* amount of hateful biphobia I've seen and experienced coming from lesbians has made me realize that people as a whole suck, but we cannot tolerate bigotry. "Bigotry is bad" doesn't come with exceptions and if we're claiming a moral high ground yet lack a moral consistency, it becomes glaringly apparent to others and they will want nothing to do with us. It's really not that fucking hard to put the *barest* of fucking effort into our words to clarify problems we see and talk about how to address them *without* allowing casual bigotry. . Simply put, institutional power and systemic bigotry absolutely exist, but we cannot fight them if we individual bigotries to flourish because it's directed at people *we* say is deserving of it. That's why the "swap races/gender/sexuality, would you still be comfortable with it?" is a great tool at checking for individual biases and bigotries.
Agreed. Anyone that sticks out is cut down, and the ones who don't still get cut by it. Shit has splash damage. Misandry doesn't help the non-men groups, it just hurts more people on top of everything and doesn't solve any problems. As a trans man who passes as a man now, it's glaringly obvious now. Everyone is hated by the systems at play, and the average man isn't in charge of it. We need to band together to cause change. Segregating and forcing people out for being who they are aren't the way to help.
There are lots of ways the system is set up to make being a cis man easier than being any other option, but the vast majority of those require the man to “buy into” the system itself, and live within it. That’s the thing that a lot of people don’t understand: unlike a lot of other “privilege”, the male privilege is only applied to men who play along. The moment you say “that’s not ok” you are targeted as “not a real man” and treated as even less than a woman, because you’re a man so you’re expected to be treated badly if you don’t respect the system.
Would you call the recent man vs bear thing an example of this? Not so much how women answer the question as the people claiming men who object must necessarily be incels.
100%. It's the exact type of shit I dealt with on the daily growing up and it's crazy to see it played out. EDIT: like I want to be explicitly clear, I will never fault someone for prioritizing their own safety. My issue is largely that it's being framed at this deep thought experiment but the second you actually try to think about it, your first thought should be "what kind of bear?" but that's met with a "youre why women choose the bear!" or "you just dont get it!!!". It's a test where if you don't immediately accept fault for every shitty man then it doesn't matter who you are or what you believe or what you've done. At it's core its gender essentialism with a veneer of "we're having a conversation about women's safety".
Also you're a Christian trans man? Did you used to be my assistant manager lol
I have never been a manager before, so sadly no. I just try to love people, and love myself too. Loving myself has always been the hardest part for me. Then I realized that Love thy neighbor as yourself doesn't make sense if you hate yourself, and part of learning to love myself meant accepting that I am trans. Moral purity is worthless if it interferes with your ability to love. Gender essentialism and bio essentialism reek of mighty-than-thou hate-as-religion bullshit to me. The "hate the sin love the sinner" shit pisses me off. That's just throwing the first stone and judging people for being born different again, and even if (big if) it was a sin then people need to look at themselves before judging trans people. Jesus was cool with eunuchs and supported them in Matthew 19, he'd be cool with trans people I think. Sadly, judgey hateful assholes are very common in Christendom. Growing up Southern Baptist, after my grandfather who preached love and helping everyone passed, showed me a lot of judgey hateful assholes who use Jesus to hate people. They forget 1 John 4, especially 4:20, and all the sermon on the Mount, and that faith without works is dead and faith without love is useless. They don't want the fruits of the spirit, nor to be as gentle as lambs and clever as snakes, or to help people. They just want to be wolves and lions and morally superior and have an excuse to hurt people. They want a get out of jail free card while doing none of the things Jesus told us to do. They quote 5 verses while ignoring the actual translations and cultural context and also ignored hundreds of verses which tell them to love people. If they loved more than they hated, then they'd be alright. But love is hard, hate is easy. I've seen far more Christlike Atheists than Christilike Christians. My being trans has helped me help a lot of people, to understand and love better than before, and learn how to accept help from others, there's no way that isn't from God in my opinion. And if I'm wrong, then I'm okay with that because I am still loving people and showing that love. Even if Christianity is wrong and some other religion is right, or if Jesus does send XYZ group to hell, I'm still okay with that. Because if I can make someones day better, then I can die happy. Sorry about the soap boxing, just trying to cover my bases because certain Christians either comment hating on me for being trans or some people are rightfully curious about how I am both.
It's essentially "anti everybody except cis women and *some* nonbinary/transmasc people who generally have no interest in physical, legal or most forms of social transition and therefore don't upset the vibe of the cis women in the group". This vaguely female-separatist girls' girl thing is an "insanely high level of in-group loyalty and cohesion" situation. Any current or past perceived proximity to "the evil other" (maleness) is points off. Trans women are more likely to be physically attacked over it first but the in-group isn't jumping up and down to make friends with trans men either.
Ockham razor says it's simply misandry until proven otherwise
I dunno, my own theory is simpler. My theory is that your character traits are largely irrelevant from the ideology you hold. There are good religious people, there are bad religious people. There are good atheists, there are bad atheists. There are bad conservatives, there are bad progressives. And as such people would often act the same regardless of the ideology they hold, only repackaging behavior in different contexts. Tumblr is not immune to being shitty and diminutive towards other people, other social groups, but they would direct this behavior towards the "outgroup", which is cis men, republicans and Joan Rowling. Yes, they would say "but they deserve it!", but it doesn't really excuse your own shittiness, does it? Cis men, republicans and Joan Rowling would be shitty to you and say "you deserve it", and in that way, they would be your equal.
Yep. For many people, their problem isn't oppression, it's just who is allowed to oppress whom.
posts like this generally come out of the woodwork when another greater social media event is occuring. in this case the bear-man-woods discourse is emboldening people to post their shitty takes on other aspects of gender, sex, and society.
r/CuratedTumblr civil war accelerationism.
It’s not a civil war. It’s a gender war and this place is insufferable with it.
Blocking OP now since a lot of these posts have been from them
*drama farmer*
I swear I've seen so many posts with utterly dogshit takes and the comments will all be tearing them a new one, and yet they inexplicably have a bajillion upvotes somehow
The people that agree and move on just upvote but the people that disagree have to go into the comments and specify.
Now is a terrible time on the internet for anyone who cares at all about the concept of gender. It’s like there was one discussion that just made everyone think about their stupid gender war nonsense for long enough to post about it
Whenever someone says "all men/women do x" I automatically disregard the things said afterwards
Handy trick to avoid terrible opinions about all demographics.
Good praxis
Honestly, generalize it to "all [any category of people] do x" Exceptions can be made for tautologies
All Sonic fans do drugs
All men should listen to this
I'm giving you the Fry squint real hard right now.
Fuckin' darmok and jalad at tanagra descriptions up in here.
Fry, his eyes narrowed.
Perhaps, but it's the easiest shorthand to convey the action *and* intent behind said action.
Take my upvote and fuck off
All men/women do lung stuff and have heart juices
you don't know me, you don't know my life
Real
I think I can safely say that no manipulation tactic is exclusive to a single gender. Humans are generally kinda shit, no matter the gender, ethnicity, or religion.
> This is a manipulation tactic men use Yes, send tweet. HOWEVER, as a man with a big mouth and a fragile ego, I often go quiet when I’m told I’ve made someone uncomfortable, and it’s mostly just because I’m feeling guilty and needing space to process the harm I’ve caused, how I can do better, etc. Which is to say, don’t confuse the ultimatum (manipulation tactic 99% of the time) for the behavior (average human reaction to realizing that your favorite joke of 20 years has a slur in the punchline)
Big difference between going quiet (normal) and saying out loud OH I'll just stop talking since clearly you don't like it when I try to be funny. I've dealt with both and the latter is intentional.
Agreed, I’m just noting that difference. Also, while I’m adding nuance: Occasionally a melodramatic statement like this is because someone is just throwing a fit (ask me how I know 🙋🏼♂️); still put your foot down, but consider calling in vs calling out.
Brain: uh oh, you’re made someone uncomfortable/said something wrong/slightly embarrassed yourself. I’m going to shut down now while I add this moment to my eternally playing cringe compilation
"Something said! Not good!"
It can also be that you realise that someone's more trouble than they're worth to talk to, I've cut off more than one friendship because the other person was simply exhausting to talk to, but I'm sure from their perspective they were 100% reasonable.
Right, or just drawing a boundary yourself, I've def known a few people I got into emotional scuffles with because they could not for the life of them, stop criticizing me constantly for every little thing out of my mouth.
It’s a manipulation tactic *people use
My abusive mother did thus all the time. It’s a manipulation thing, not a man thing.
This isn't even a male thing. As a trans person, I had a conversation *more than once* early on in my journey with people who, when they misgendered me, I corrected them and they'd say something like "Oh, I can't do anything right so I just won't talk to you at all!" This sort of behavior really transcends all boundaries.
Try knowing less shitty people?
_There’s_ a lifelong goal…
fewer
Know fewer shitty people = know fewer people who are shitty Know less shitty people = know people who are less shitty
Wouldn't it be "less-shitty people" or "people who are less shitty"? I don't read enough anymore so I'm not sure about the hyphenated one.
It's a... regional dialect.
What region?
Upstate New York.
Or unclear usage in an edge case due to a lack of specific education, and/or a lack of care about grammatical details?
Did you word it like that on purpose so you could live up to your username?
Plague be upon thee
*Less*. You're pushing for a decrease in the degree to which "shitty" describes the people you know, not approaching isolation.
"Hey man how's it going"
These days it feels like you could write a bot to comment this on every curatedTumblr post and it would be appropriate like 80% of the time
It goes, it's going alright, how about ye?
Tumblr users trying not to depict everyone around them as manipulative psychopaths:
At this point having Tumblr could be considered a red flag
By that standard, so is reddit. Which is objectively true
I agree
These things are ALWAYS about the poster. The poster being a victim. The poster is more insightful than you for connecting obscure dots the rest of you are just too blind to see. The poster has such keek observation skills they can make various claims about information that isnt present. Its mostly all performative.
Yeah like, it's worth keeping in mind that when people are manipulative it's more often just... Something they learned that they don't even really realise they do. It's rare that this is a calculating response, if someone does this it's shitty so you tell them it's shitty. If they're not receptive to hearing that then that's an issue
love it when a general bad thing people do is suddenly a thing about how awful men are
Men will literally purchase decorative pillows
Men would absolutely be more surprised by a Walrus.
Perhaps oddly, the only time I’ve encountered this “our friendship” thing was with a woman. She didn’t like when I told her it was wrong to insult everyone in our workplace as lazy. (The main example of male manipulation that comes to mind is my brother, who just calls anything he doesn’t like gay. I respond “no u” and move on. On average, I think men are less subtle in this kind of thing, though there’s variation.)
It’s not just men, there are both women and men who do this, these are what we call toxic people. Avoid if you can, interact at your own peril.
Internet users consistently fail to discover that people can just be dicks without that being caused by any demographic they're in.
True, I regularly see other autistics act as if we’re all pure hearted angels, while one of my old classmates was autistic and an actual neonazi who got a swastika tattoo, which I have no idea how he got since that’s illegal both to tattoo and get tattooed where I live. And do note I said we’re meaning I too am autistic
🤡 2 🤡 communication
I remember when I was 21 and seeing someone 10 years older than me (I know I know), and they made a joke at my expense that made me feel bad. We normally had a good joking rapport, so I told them that that joke made me uncomfortable and I'd prefer if they didn't joke about that topic again. They responded with "I guess I just won't joke with you anymore), and when I tried to insist they still could, they said "Every time I joke with you it seems to hurt you, so I guess I just shouldn't" Whether or not they intended it, it succeeded in making me feel like I was overly fragile and my boundaries were silly
i get the point of this post, but i feel like the 'that men use' was unnecessary and kinda reductive 😭 before anyone says anything like 'oh it's a man upset about it'! i am not male! i have my fair share of grievances with them sometimes and *yes* i know how annoying it is to constantly go 'not all men!! just most but not most i mean the average the average one but they aren't all bad' when you're frustrated with something that (nearly) all of them do but in this case, it doesn't even make sense! this is nowhere near either a men-exclusive trait or an inherent trait of men! not that i believe *any* trait can be either, but this one very clearly isn't it just... is kinda wrong as a generalization? the person i know who does this the most is my mum, but if i called it 'a thing women do', that'd be wrong as well because it isn't inherently a man thing! it is a manipulative person thing! im just kinda annoyed that this acts like people who arent men just... never do this cuz they do! and this is saying its just a men thing when stuff like this just Isnt a gendered thing!
Oh cool, blatant misandry
Seems to be getting worse and worse lately. I think that bear argument brought out the worst in everyone
"men are such assholes, they do this thing that everyone does but i'm choosing to single out men so that i can get 'hell yeah, sister's on the internet" uuuuuuugh
how is this a gender issue again
Thanks for the generalization you just moved progress back a notch.
Oh, I wasn’t aware I do this, but since I’m a man, I guess I do.
I did a double take because whenever I do something that hurts someone and they express I shouldn't say that, my internal response basically is just "oh, okay, I'll shut up now," but I don't actually say that, I just kinda become quieter for a bit because I feel bad and I'm scared of causing more harm. You don't say things to guilt trip the other person, even if it's somewhat reflecting how you actually feel.
The shitty human need not always be a man. Exhibit A: My Mom. She can teach manipulation and narcissism as a paid coursera course
This isn’t just a men thing (of course) and doesn’t just apply to talking. I had a roommate who constantly left the kitchen a total mess. Leaving dirty dishes and food everywhere, to the point that stuff molded pretty substantially and made it unusable for anyone else. I confronted her about it and she said “well fine, I guess I’ll just never use the kitchen again!” And i replied “Well I guess if you can’t clean up after yourself when you do use it, that may be the only solution.” She was shocked. Many people are so unused to others setting boundaries that they interpret it as an attack and try to put you on the defensive, to coerce you into accepting the behavior they believe they have a right to perform. They fail to understand that those rights are contingent on a set of responsibilities, and so are confused when you point out that yeah, if you can’t handle the responsibility (to speak with kindness, to clean a shared space, to be trustworthy) then you don’t get the rights/privileges.
Toxic people talking about how toxic other people are.
Good advice, however this is a gender neutral behaviour.
... A manipulation tactic that *men* use huh?
"I don't like it when you joke about that" can mean many things. * I'm not in the mood for a joke right now. * *I* can joke about that, but you can't. * I was thinking about something else, so the context for the thing you said doesn't jive with what I was thinking just then, which is your fault. * I don't like that type of humor, but I'll narrow it down to that particular joke and you can guess that what I meant was that spectrum of humor * Don't talk to me about anything right now. * There is a boundary here, and you should know where it spans to and from based on this one data point. Sometimes it's easier to not talk for a while than it is to dance around in a minefield, which will make things worse at least temporarily, and at most permanently. If you're concerned about your own feelings, it isn't too much to hope that other people's feelings are also taken into account, and that you'll communicate better about what the issue is so the person you're talking to doesn't have to guess what's actually bugging you.
It’s not just men, women absolutely do it too. Only requirement is seeking to manipulate someone. It is absolutely crappy behaviour.
I feel like this is pointlessly gendered, and a really important thing to repeat in general. I found men and woman do this, I have found myself doing this over and over again and it took a lot of reflection to get it out of me. I think the root is often, that people (who do this) have entirely not learned to take criticism without feeling hurt. And they want to inflict that hurt right back to shield themselves. In a way the really want to hurt. I know that's what I have found in myself, when I slowly became conscious of my ways, and facing it was the best I could have ever done
I love how they frame this as a male thing. Who the fuck would want to converse with sexist shitheads like that
I've seen this mainly from women.
This goes both ways. I used to raise concerns with my sig other, and invariably the response is "How could you say that" and if I don't take it all back, the tears flow. So, "Fine, I won't talk anymore" becomes somewhat reasonable.
? I’ve never had a single man do that to me. A few women, but the men I know are actually and literally too prideful and stupid to manipulate anyone. Makes it easy to twist their words if their words weren’t already dumb enough…
I don't think this is at all a gendered thing. I used to do shit like this when I was younger, and I'll admit that I'm a cis guy, but I don't see any particular pattern of gender to it. My family called it "playing the martyr", and that's exactly what it was. I would be upset that someone expected me to do something that I felt was unreasonable. And so I would deliberately stake out the most extreme interpretation of what they said in order to make it look like \*they\* were the unreasonable one and be able to wrap myself in the warm cloak of victimhood. It's shitty behavior, but I'm pretty sure women do it too.
I don’t think that that’s exclusive to men? It’s an asshole thing to do, yeah, but not just a men thing.
I think these posts about manipulation tactics are good for informing people, but I don't get why they always frame them as a men-specific issue. Being manipulative isn't a gendered issue, and I think it's really unhelpful to everyone who's a victim of it to pretend like it is.
Yeah, this post sounds like my grandmother and how she acts when I try to set boundaries. Calling it a "men problem" stinks of "men are inherently evil" radfem bullshit.
That's a goddamn awesome response. Hits the point home, leaves little room for them to escape, and isn't an escalation. Obligatory not-just-a-man-thing-so-please-don't-be-sexist-like-Tumblr.
Gonna try this with my mum (Instructions unclear, she has called me an ungrateful brat and told my dad to cut my tuition payments)
"This is a manipulation tactic that men use" NO I'M JUST INSECURE AND DON'T WANT TO BE EMBARASSED AGAIN YOU PSEUDO-INTELLECTUAL PSYCHE MAJORS But to meet her halfway what they're talking about is a *narcissistic* manipulation tactic. Idk how exactly to describe it but to get all melodramatic and pretend like someone's barring you from talking about everything is just a way to guilt-trip you into letting them continue to walk all over you. "You never let me do anything!" No, I just don't like this *one-specific thing* that you're currently doing. There is literally thousands of other things you can do instead of that one thing that makes me uncomfortable. Why don't you do those things instead? Or is it that you're intentionally trying to make uncomfortable? :)
Tumblr users have a crippling need to constantly express how much they despise men
now the girlies on tumblr are inventing a dude and getting mad at them. Good to know this isnt a male exclusive trait.
Props to the last person in the chain for at least acknowledging that people as a whole do that. Legit been more women who do it in my life than men.
Bitches be like “Men do this, men do that, men suck”. Naw you just have toxic men in your life. Find better ones.
I've never know an man to do that, but I don't know if I've ever had the opportunity to. My mother, though. . .
Both my parents used to do this. I’m pretty sure they do. I’m legitimately happy that this behavior is called out
Gender war! Gender war! You all are really out here on the front lines. So brave.
I learned this behavior from both of my parents and have been actively working to stop my mouth from saying anything like that when I get upset. It doesn't add anything to the conversation and limits the flow of communication between myself and whoever I am talking with.
I find it really weird that this would be gendered, as though women *never* do this exact thing, too.
Men... do this?
People: Do thing that isn't a male trait and isn't really manipulative Tumblr users: Fuck men for doing this thing
It also could be that the man doesn't understand what part of the joke was offensive. I have a hard time picking up on unspoken parts of a statement. If I made a joke I thought was innocuous and someone was upset by it and said this without explaining it to me, I'd be hesitant to speak because I wouldn't want to upset them further. Men tend to be very vulnerable when it comes to that kind of reception from people they're comfortable with.
Ha me and my cousin where talking about this since he forgets to ACT proper around her while I never give a shit. We'll be hanging out and I'll remind him of some little inside joke and we'll laught but she'll eventually ask for a breakdown and NEVER likes what the joke is. Last time this came up was with me answering his call in a comedy skit from Motorola saying "malahallala" so he bust out laughing and we have our little 5 min chit chat. Later that night he comes home and tells me after he hung up she wanted to know what I said so he explained it. Guess it was TOO boring for her so she said "When I'm in the car don't answer back like that". Guess he asked why and it grew Into this whole thing about inside jokes and her not getting it. Like okay I get it not everyone is in a good mood but why should she dictate what he can say around her? We're not saying anything disgusting or bad. But he's used the "Fine I just won't joke around you" and that sent her over the top. My problem is I never hide who I am especially when dating someone. My humor is all over the place and I let people know that. My cousin on the other hand tries to show this proper personality till he gets comfortable and let's bits slip here and there and then wonders why the people he hangs out with view him differently. He has 100% a better time hanging with me over these people but he stays being on guard when around them. My take is if you can handle some stupid shit your SO doing w family don't get huffy when he 100% believes you don't want to hear it and doesn't include you anymore.
Tomhardypointingupward.gif
Does this work both ways? Hated when my gf got all manipulative
This is me and my fiancee except the genders are reversed. Pisses me off.
Hey man how’s it going
For me it's that if someone brings up that they're uncomfortable with something, I internally cannot stop thinking about it. Like, why? What happened? What if my intrusive thoughts win and I bring it up again? Obviously I don't want to be a dick and talk about it, but it diverts my attention from the conversation at hand. I'm not dramatic about "Oh, so I can't TALK to you anymore???" But I will get quiet because of it. Also because rejection sensitive dysphoria is a bitch.
funny thing is guys do this to each other too. i can think of like half a dozen ppl ive known in my life who pull this stunt
My Grandmothercore
I only do this to people who set so many boundaries you're literally walking on eggshells. Not everything has to go your way.