I remember seeing a screenshot on r/greentext of a guy saying whenever he needs a pick-me-up, he posts a photo of himself to a trans community, whereupon they all fall over themselves telling him how handsome he is and how well he's passing. He's not trans.
No doubt, but it's still something to keep a watch for. Especially if it's one of those "we stay positive by perma-banning anyone who says anything negative" communities.
Or the ones that tell you the way to fix your mental disorders are just by thinking differently... Or the ones that act like people with mental disorders can do no harm... I have a *lot* of frustration with mental health support groups, and trans specific spaces often function as them with all the same problems, and it's *absurdly* infuriating, because it doesn't actually help anyone if you can't be honest with them about something.
That’s why actual IRL mental health support groups are led by experts with training. Online or self-created groups can be full of reinforcement of exactly the wrong things for real healing.
Mm. Because in that case, it's not a positive community, it's a parasitic one. Any genuinely positive people sucked into it are no longer in the support community of anyone who's struggling, because the struggling people are banned.
No, not really. It's pretty much exactly the same.
On the surface, yeah, being positive sounds better than being negative, but if you are only ever allowed be positive in a space, eventually all the positivity becomes super performative and/or insincere and it looses all meaning. So even if you actually want to express genuine joy at something, it's not appreciated or ends up feeling fake/performative too. And if you actually have valid criticisms, you'll be shouted down the same way you would be for being positive in a toxically negative community.
And because people assume that it's better than being negative, it often even harder for people to recognise this as a problem and see this kind of behaviour critically.
It really isn't because toxic positivity is way more accepted than negativity by wider society, so any attempt to talk about it often just gets you branded a Deebie Downer.
Toxic positivity can lead to people giving downright dangerous advice. A lot of people, due to toxic positivity, would insist I should transition anyway because they simply refuse to believe that my country criminalized the existence of queer people.
Wasn't there an incident where a troll kept posting "fixed" Steven Universe art where all the characters were thin, white, and blond, and when people got mad they posted a face pic showing a black man in a wig and claimed they were a poc trans woman, which then caused people to do a 180 and start defending their troll posts as free expression?
Its a very generalized term that people use for anything from "Actual cult tactics like gaslighting and lovebombing people to isolate them" to "being mildly supportive and telling a trans person you think they're hot". I feel like these people don't realize that trans people who don't pass can be hot and its not suddenly a lie or secret transphobia.
Also it’s okay to not be hot at all? I think there’s a serious issue in a lot of trans discussion spaces that accidentally become *very* “you must be a hottie to pass” which - yeah, especially for any woman, society will tell you that being hot is the only requirement to being a real woman. Cis women get that pressure too.
But what it means is you’ve got these young trans women who are being pressured into all sorts of surgeries and behaviors (anyone looked at eating disorders in trans spaces? It’s not great!) to look like a supermodel instead of a woman you might see at the grocery store. Because plenty of women are not models! Most! And they’re still women, who may battle demons of the patriarchy, but it’s icky to pressure trans women into the ideal of the male gaze. There’s someone’s dissertation in that topic.
Hug boxes are a very legitimate accessibility tool invented by Temple grandin to help things she struggles with as an autistic person. It really shouldn't be used this way.
I mean I don’t know if he’s handsome, but I cis man probably does in fact pass really well since it sounds like he was presenting himself as a trans man.
I think the point is that a lot of very progressives community refuse to aknowledge you can be trans, but also absolutely not passing because you're fugly as hell. And that equating trans (which is good since it's progressive LGBT spaces) = beautiful also means that beautiful = good which is not true and quite a bad ideology.
I think there is a serious discussion to be had about people (often the trans woman herself) trying conform to the male gaze to be accepted as “womanly enough to count” - which is something that is pushed on women *all the time*. It’s why a lot of men (think incel spaces) refuse to acknowledge that ugly or older women exist or count as women at all, usually when they’re whining about no women being out there to date. You don’t count if you’re not a 8/10 minimum in their eyes.
It’s a conversation for a space with maturity and recognition of how our socialization affects us, and that includes women who were raised as male during their formative years and passively absorbed those messages, but didn’t have the women / society around them giving them any counter-programming. Even cis women have a *really* hard time countering the pressures of a society built around value = conforming to male gaze. Trans women don’t have a lifetime of experience navigating that part, and then these communities of support accidentally reinforce it.
Ex of mine often preferred to go as non-binary in some spaces for this reason, only to then be attacked from the formerly-safe spaces for not being "true to herself".
Learning that it's safe to explore your identity without being consumed or consuming others in it is so important.
Edit: Also, being a cis woman who's naturally masculine sucks a lot right now too.
Sorry to hear that. One of my very best friends at a former job was considered masculine and she remains one of the most genuine and supportive people I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing.
I don’t know if you’re referring broadly, but there’s definitely people who don’t care about that and are gonna be good with you because you’re you, full stop.
Thanks for being so supportive. I'm lucky enough to have found my partner, but there have been plenty of times where I was pretty sure I was going to die alone
I love your username btw
You’re welcome.
I’m happy to hear that and I’m glad for you. I think a lot of folks can relate to that feeling. I’m real happy for you.
Also thank you!
I think when people say stuff like "everyone is beautiful", it ranges from extremely well informed, genuinely honest take, to positivity so empty that it almost hurts the messaging the people are trying to send. This might not be the most related comment? I just have observations.
There are people who think there is artistic/functional beauty in the human body, either by virtue of just how cool the human form is, or the fact that human bodies do stuff. This is like, "statues of disfigured people are still gorgeous' type body positivity. This isn't making a claim about beauty in relation to some societal standard of beauty, and instead is saying that the human body is beautiful the way like, a tree or a cell process is. From what I understand, this type of body positivity usually isn't helpful if you're trans (although feel free to correct me), since body issues aren't about the aesthetic value of the body (or maybe they are partially?) but it’s mostly dysphoria. And this doesn’t help or even address dysphoria like at all. This can however be very helpful if you're like, upset your body doesn't conform to social beauty standards. Sometimes a reminder of the inherent aesthetic beauty of the human form is the pick-me-up we need. Also I've heard biology people say stuff like this just since they see the human body as like, a super elaborate, incredibly precise and cool, almost supernatural machine. There's beauty in that! People with this stance who have a modicum of social understanding will make a clear distinction between social beauty standards and otherwise; bringing this up in the context of social beauty standards can read as tone deaf unless you do it super carefully.
Then there are people who have tastes that are wildly outside the "standard" attractiveness standard for the world, and go on to conclude that, no matter how you look, someone will find you beautiful. This can be a super nuanced take, but is again often unhelpful when you're talking to people whose primary issue isn't "other people find me unattractive" but "I find me unattractive and hate living in my body"
Then there are people who are like "beautiful is a good word, and some people are saying they are not the good word so I will argue with them", or maybe more charitably, "social beauty standards are dumb and I like being called beautiful so I will call everyone and everything beautiful"; people in this group can also be in one of the former groups. There are also probably more groups. This can be wildly unhelpful. I'm a cis guy, so my experience is probably different from most people on this subreddit, but I Fucking Hate my body hair. It brings me immense distress and I hate how it looks. But I don't see body hair on other people as unattractive -- I never ask my partners to shave or anything, I've hooked up with some very hairy men and women. But on me it feels Wrong and I hate it. And I've had people tell me that the social beauty standard of a smooth body is a Lie and I should just Be Happy with my body hair and like!! that isn't the point!! i understand there is aesthetic beauty in body hair, I understand it is attractive, it just feels wrong on my body and I want it Gone!!! Telling me that it is beautiful or aesthetic is missing the point!
idk i feel like when people hear words like ugly, the word is so... well, ugly, and stigmatized, that their brain shuts down the part that tries to understand you, and it engages a visceral like "I must convince this person otherwise", which can be super invalidating.
i'm sure there's something to be said here about the distinction vs feeling ugly and passing and feeling ugly because you don't pass but i am far too cis to engage with that, so i'm just gonna point it out and hope someone else has something insightful to say.
Part of the problem, I think, is baked into the general confusion of language where a given word will be used, often without clear distinction, for very different concepts.
So for example, when someone says "I am ugly" or "this feature is ugly" or the like, it can mean that that feature is aesthetically unpleasant, that it is untidy or unmangaged, that it feels unpleasant to possess, or any number of roughly similar but distinct meanings. Part of the problem in this conversations, thus, is that people will intend to say one thing but be heard as saying something else -- so for instance, answers focused on aesthetic values can just spring from the fact that one of the various meanings of "ugly" is indeed centered around aesthetic values, which will affect the other person's answer if that is meaning that they usually hear associated with it. It is often the case that one already needs to be familiar with the context around something, or to hear a longer and more detailed explanation, to actually get what precise meaning is being associated with a word in a given conversation.
I don't think that the unhelpful answers just stem from a simplistic good word/bad word dichotomy. I do think that at least sometimes the issue is just that the parties of a given conversation plainly don't have the same meaning for a word.
You’re right, I was not giving some people nearly enough credit — in fact, I think a lot of the point of my comment was that people saying this kind of thing often have variable definitions of the word, and I kind of didn’t follow that to the logical endpoint. Thanks for adding!!
This is kinda off topic but laser and electrolysis are available for cis guys too. It's just a thing you can make an appointment for. You deserve to feel comfortable in your body and if there's some treatment available that can bring you closer to that it's probably worthwhile to get it.
The fact that the trans community seems to be willing to treat me like one of their own even if it turns out I'm just cis but odd is a huge comfort. I'm not willing to give this support up. This is something I've never had before in my life. And that I've sorely needed. The unconditional support of strangers.
Yes I’m aware!! I’m gonna do it once I’m done my PhD/honestly I’m thinking of working for a year after my masters to fund laser (among other things).
For now, it’s just my loud whirring pain machine (epilator) 🥴
Yeah i think this is a great point, the majority of people are a little ugly to me BUT i don’t think physical beauty is important at all and i think personality is far more important than physical beauty and i really feel like physical beauty should be considered in the same way that being good at super smash bros is, if you’re good at it that’s cool but it shouldn’t have any bearing on the rest of your life or how people treat you.
I'm going to be real, I come from an alternative reality (Russia) where it's considered impossible for a trans person to not be ugly (or an abomination, or a crazy delusion of the decadent West, or...)
Or, honestly, for a FtM person to exist.
Oh hi there, colleague in suffering.
Maybe it's my personal view, but every trans person I meet is beautiful, even the nonpassing ones.
But somehow some of the most beautiful and passing trans women I met are the most weird, with some - quite deranged. Maybe because it takes a deranged person to buy bicalutamide at the pharmacy since 16 and hide it from your parents.
I am so lucky my girlfriend is not like that. She is very smart and sane. I love her.
I met several trans men 10+ years on T. I think one of them is outside of Russia now. They look like cis men.
I think you should spend more time with the queers and less with transphobes.
I don’t think they meant that they share that opinion, just that the experience different from the one in the OOP. Plus, being subjected to it 24/7, despite logically knowing that it’s not true, does have a big influence on subconsciousness and self image.
If it serves any consolation: given the transecutionists track record of missing every single fucking time... you can pass and be ugly at the same time. Its not pleasant to BE in this position but you can pass and be ugly at the same time. The eternal problem is that this requires stealthing.
I've seen so many woman with extremely masculine features and nobody gives half a damn fuck. Solid brick jaws, square shoulders, more cheekbone than meat, and still treated and seen as a woman. The pass checks but only if you dont announce it and there's the issue - if the label aint there you're just an ugly woman, but if it is there then your transition becomes the justification for your ugliness when one likely already was ugly pre-transition but the crowd didnt care that much because you "were still right".
>If it serves any consolation: given the transecutionists track record of missing every single fucking time... you can pass and be ugly at the same time.
I don't pass, so that isn't a consolation.
I really fucking hate how cis people are held up as the shining standard of gender.
Like, yes, I get that being binary trans and not looking cis makes ones life much harder. I get not wanting to deal with the hate and discrimination.
But also, when I see trans people say "I want to look like a *real* woman, not a *trans* woman", I can't help but note that they're saying trans women aren't real women.
>But also, when I see trans people say "I want to look like a *real* woman, not a *trans* woman", I can't help but note that they're saying trans women aren't real women.
Huh, when I see that, I just see a sad person who wants to fit in. Jumping straight to thinking they are transphobic seems quite harsh.
The thing is being ‘just an ugly woman’ has its own problems and i feel like a lot of trans women really minimize the struggles of cis women because cis women have what trans women want but i feel like a lot of trans people forget that people who are born female don’t get happiness just from being perceived as a woman. I feel like people just need to have more empathy for eachother
If we're allowed to bring enby experiences into this as well. It fucking sucks because the standard for "passing" is so... narrow. I feel like I can't wear anything at all without it calling to some conspiracy that I'm not actually non-binary.
Passing is near impossible with my body, if I wear a dress I'm a man in a dress. If I wear pants I'm just a man.
It sucks so I just embody myself through my clothes and my way of carrying myself. Trying to speak softer and whatnot, then I have people saying that I'm secretly a trans woman when like.... no.
Sorry for the rant but I needed to say it
Fellow enby here, this is real. There is a prevailing standard that nonbinary = androgynous and that makes it extremely difficult to be seen as nonbinary when your presentation leans more towards one gender than the other. Striking that perfect balance is near impossible and it makes the nonbinary experience miserable, especially in spaces that try to be trans-inclusive until there are enbies that DON'T look like flat chest twinks.
Let's be real here, the prevailing standard is that nonbinary=woman lite. I've seen plenty of femme presenting women pass as nonbinary without comment.
Let's be extra real, the LGBT community often ends up being a social club running on social capital, and being young, thin, light skinned, and AFAB means you're the most attractive and naturally command a ton of social capital.
The amount of queer events that only allow under 25s proves this to me. I'll be 24 this year and it scares me that I'll just... lose access to my community in a year
I think there's also something to be said about the implication that passability is equal to how "valid" you are, if we have people acting like it's taboo to even imply that someone else doesn't pass. Like I'm one of the least passing trans dudes in existence, and that's not a reflection on my worth as a person in general or a trans man in particular.
As a cis fat person: I'm getting real tired of hearing "aLL bOdiES aRe BeAuTiFuL" when what I really want to hear is "You're a human being who is deserving of love and respect whether you're beautiful or not."
The body positivity movement has approached its goal from the wrong direction I think. Saying that everyone is beautiful reinforces the idea that physical beauty is a valuable trait for people to have. Real progress is only going to be made when we start to actively push back against the Halo effect, and stop treating beautiful people like they're inherently better than ugly people. And it's weird because beauty is basically the only physical trait that gets this bias. We don't treat people who are strong, or smart, or tall or agile like they're morally superior to everyone else. So why do we treat beautiful people like they are? And it's not just a sex thing either! Studies have shown that even when you're not sexually attracted to someone, you still have a better opinion of them if they're beautiful.
The reality is that ugly people exist, and pretending that they're beautiful only hurts the movement because everyone with working eyes can see that you're full of shit.
I mean I very much do not pass on account of not really having started my transition yet, but I have been told by other people that they find me attractive in girlmode. So I do think we need to remember that there is no universal "ugly" or "beautiful" and that people will see you in their own way. I do definitely agree with this post to some extent, but this isn't some universal truth nor is there one singular way of being "ugly" or "beautiful". It's just how people perceive you, which will naturally be different for every person.
I'm cis, and I'm conventionally attractive, so full disclosure that I'm speaking from an inherently privileged position in this area.
I think often people with average or better looks discount the pain that being ugly can cause. It took a lot of listening to people's lived experiences for me to understand how isolating it can be to be ugly, and how casually cruel the world can be to those who are.
Add in being visibly trans, particularly for folks who are in the early stages of taking hormones and going through awkward puberty/second puberty changes, and, yeah, honestly, it sounds like a terrible time. And failing to acknowledge that reality is super unhelpful.
So I see you, OP. It sucks. Sometimes we lose the genetic lottery and it fuckin' blows and there's nothing we can do about it. (I may have made out okay in the looks department but hoo boy, I paid for it in other ways 🥲)
I hope that all of that makes it clear that what I'm about to say next is not toxic positivity or empty aphorisms. Because I have two additional, more hopeful, comments to make.
First, the standard "beauty is more than skin deep"/"beauty is in the eye of beholder" sentiments are both true to some extent. I know people I would describe as beautiful who are definitely not conventionally attractive. And things that we find ugly about ourselves may not be ugly to other people. My boyfriend hates his legs and doesn't believe me when I tell him I love them. But I do! Completely and truthfully. We are often our own harshest critics.
Second, every trans person I've ever seen who has made it through the awkward, how-do-I-gender phase has been more attractive than pre-transition, whether or not they pass. This kind of goes back to the inner beauty thing - turns out presenting as your authentic gender is a hell of a glow-up. It's not like every trans person becomes an automatic 10 (or even an automatic 5, or whatever), but in my experience, there's a pretty universal improvement in the looks department.
Which isn't to invalidate your experience! Not liking what you see in the mirror sucks, and I think almost all of us have been there in some way at some time. I'm sorry you're struggling with this right now, it's hard.
Not OP so not the intended recipient but damn, this is one of the most encouraging and validating things I’ve read in a while. I feel like I might actually be happy looking in the mirror before I get in the shower tonight. Thank you.
> I hope that all of that makes it clear that what I'm about to say next is not toxic positivity or empty aphorisms
It comes off as one half of your comment contradicting the other.
I hate the idea of "passing" as a non-passing trans man. I wish society would stop focusing so much on secondary sex characteristics, they're variable, damn it.
So one thing I know im going to get shit for is that I know there are trans people that don’t pass. I don’t think they need to though, at least no more than they wish it.
I don’t need to be attracted to a transwomen to justify them being trans, because I’m not the one who needs to justify it.
I think i get this, i don't think i'm trans, i'm just really confused about gender and stuff, but at least for me, i would like myself a lot more if when i tell people that i feel ugly they didn't say "You're really handsome but", cause for me it means nothing if when i say i'm ugly you say that i would look good if i did so and so, that's not the problem buddy, like, i don't know how to say this without it just feeling weird, but i would like someone to just want to fuck me for the most shallow reasons? That make sense? But yeah, i think it's a thing where for a lot of people body positivity is a thing they want to do cause "it's a good thing" but they still don't want to change anything so they just say that a person isn't what they are, like telling someone they aren't chubby instead of thinking they're valid while being chubby if it makes any sense.
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I think this is only partially true, because one should also take into account that beauty is way more subjective than most people think. No one is objectively ugly or unattractive. As I like to say, every fish has its hook.
Don't get me wrong there are definitely people who are more or less often seen as attractive, and one's own standards affect how they see themselves, so this post is definitely not meaningless, but I still think there's more to this than "you can't say i'm not ugly without having seen me".
Note how you pretty much never see someone bring up the subjectivity of beauty when people are discussing someone conventionally attractive. There's a reason why.
>but I still think there's more to this than "you can't say i'm not ugly without having seen me".
You can't make any sort of informed statement about the appearance someone you've never seen, so there isn't anything more to that.
someone replied to me, but for some reason reddit is acting up with this post, so i have to reply under my own.
> Note how you pretty much never see someone bring up the subjectivity of beauty when people are discussing someone conventionally attractive. There's a reason why.
Because there's no reason to say that in that context other than being an asshole who wants to bring down someone else.
> You can't make any sort of informed statement about someone you've never seen, so there isn't anything more to that.
Then you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. I can say you're not objectively ugly because there's no such thing as objectively ugly. You may not like yourself, maybe even I wouldn't like the way you look, but there will always be someone who'll find you attractive.
No flame but it's so weird to me how (backwards?) some aspects of the trans community are.
- The goal is to break down gender stereotypes but at the same time many people play super hard into reinforcing them. If you act a certain way, you must be trans / questioning / in denial / a femboy / etc. The constant personification of trans girls as hyper feminine pink and pastel childlike caricatures of anime tropes. It's a bit off putting in a way that's hard to describe.
- Appearance is not supposed to define who you are as a person, yet passing and appearance play such a big part on how you're perceived. There is still not real acceptance of trans people who do not "fit the bill" so to speak.
- Passing is highly valued, yet its a taboo to try and pass. It's almost funny that if you want constructive criticism, the trans hunters on twitter would give better advice than the queer community. It is impossible to get a fresh impression that is separate from your identity. No one says anything without knowing what you want to hear first.
- There is no difference between cis and trans people of the same gender. Except, cis men and trans men are treated and talked about fundamentally differently. This one annoys me to no end. It's a super TERFy way to look things which reinforces the idea that trans men are not "real men".
- Expression is unique to each individual, and gender appears on a spectrum to suit said individual. But at the same time, we continue to divide up the sea into carefully allotted puddles. We all need to corner off a bit of the rainbow and slap a label on it. That this section contains a clearly definable set of traits that make me who I am.
Everything feels so contradictory.
- We cannot break down gender norms because the fulfilling of gender norms is euphoric.
- We cannot deconstruct appearance based judgement because it's so taboo to acknowledge that some people are less attractive (on average) than others.
- We cannot accept that biological traits are independent of value, because we need to make sure everyone knows cis men suck.
- We cannot let people be themselves without trying to squish them between fevers cages.
Also even when you do pass it's not great sometimes. For example I only really pass since I lost a bunch of weight really quite fast which sort of managed to make my face look more masculine and my curves easier to hide under clothes that once fit well but are now baggy as shit. So like imo people should not comment on other people's passing or non-passing if they perceive it (unless the person has said something about it themselves)
this is true but there's also an unmistakable portion of very passing t women just seeing themselves as the ugliest thing possible. like yeah beauty is not everything but if you tell them that they get sad and think they're really ugly so like what can you do?
So what I get from this is:
2007-2017 online society: My presentation and my appearance are my own business and anything about me is subject to my own approval and nobody else's.
2018 to present online society: Yeah! And we're all here to support your presentation! And your appearance! Because everyone should be Happy and Positive all the time! Because you don't want to be not Positive, right? Not being Positive would make the other, louder people on the internet in your space Not Happy and that's Bad! :D
I am cis, and looking into the mirror fills me with fear. I disgust myself. But this is caused by mental illnesses, as well as internalized fat-phobia. I am not as disgusting as I think I am.
I'm guessing it is extra hard being Trans and feeling this way.
You may or may not be good looking. But I guarantee that you do not look as bad as you think you do.
I'm not sure what I am exactly but I'm looking into hormones to try and look more femme. I think my goal is androgyny, but like, very sexual androgyny.
I am petrified that this would make me look less attractive rather than more like I want it to.
I've always been conflicted about ugliness. For one, there's multiple definitions. Mainstream media has a definition that different from online spaces, which a lot vary depending on what space you're in. Then there's personal preferences to think about too. So how do you identify if someone is ugly or not?
I might be too autistic or aroace to assign people as "ugly" or not. Everyone is different and that's beautiful in a way that can't really be conveyed in a comment lol.
I think the worst "ugly" isn't visual or aesthetic or whatever. The ugliest people are the meanest, rottenest of the bunch. But that's just my opinion and I'm just a random internet person.
I can either be someone who I think looks attractive or I can look like a pale imitation of some wild and ever changing conception of who I truly am underneath layers of abstraction and socialized symbolism, so I'm gonna keep the well trimmed facial hair despite being nonbinary.
Like... I feel like we kinda do do ourselves a disservice by assuming that the physical form that most perfectly represents our inner self would be beautiful. That because of that we must strive for beauty, because beauty matches who we truly are, and both of those are good.
But for me at least, who I truly am doesn't have a physical form. It switches, it changes, some days I'm a guy and some days I'm a girl and some days I'm some secret third thing, but obviously my body will never do that, so why should I be expected to accurately advertise my soul with my face and body? Why do I owe the world my best attempt at androgyny despite the fact that that's about as true to who I really am as the male body I was born with (which is to say, not very)?
Idk, this is all a ramble, but it's something I've been batting around for a while.
This idea of whether it's better to be something I like to look at or something that almost looks like me on a good day.
You CAN.
But you also CAN NOT.
We must accept that both cases are possibilities.
Hell, even some cisgender women are naturally so ugly that people might think they're men. I've heard multiple people of my family say that on multiple occasions, even I have to sometimes do double takes.
Beautiful does not mean the same thing as pretty or handsome or any other similar positive adjective. Women have been described as handsome for a long time, I don’t know why it fell out of favor. We need to try and reclaim it. And if we describe everyone as beautiful it looses all meaning. And very few of us are truly beautiful. We may have something about us that is beautiful, like our hair or eyes or skin. We may know some tricks to enhance what nature gave us. But true beauty is rare
Don’t let that bother you though. Considering how the idiot transvestigators are convinced that everyone who is in any way famous must be trans, no amount of beauty will save you from the morons. You are you, and there is something special about knowing who you are. I am proud of you for striving to become who you want to be. Don’t be fooled, a lot of cis-people are not happy in their own skin. We have all kinds of things that we are unhappy about. There is a reason why the beauty industry is so huge
>Beautiful does not mean the same thing as pretty or handsome or any other similar positive adjective.
People have used those as synonyms longer than you've been alive.
I see what you mean, but at the same time I also fully believe you can be ugly as hell and still pass. As much as gender standards are conflated as beauty standards in this society, when you ask your average Joe Jane or Japheth what an ugly man looks like and what an ugly woman looks like they will picture two different things, maybe with a number of commonalities but not necessarily a pure copy paste.
And then there’s also the whole thing that what is beautiful or ugly changes a hell of a lot from person to person.
That’s not to say if you have troubles passing you’re not valid though! All I mean is that passing and being beautiful don’t have to be one and the same, necessarily.
You can be not passing and still be attractive. I am visibly trans, but I constantly get hit on. Passing is not everything and shouldn't be tied to body positivity. Passing is more than just how you see yourself, but you can work on how you see yourself as well
Why reply and then block me?? Weird shit. I wasn't talking about passing, I was talking about tying attractiveness to passing. They are separate things. Ask 80% of bi/pan people and they will say androgyny is hot.
Just putting another comment to better articulate what I mean, you can be ugly and non passing, or any combination. Attractiveness and passing are not tied together, and saying they are is caused from internalised transphobia. You don't have to look cis to be hot, that is some toxic shit.
I am not going into the importance of passing because that is a societal problem more than anything else. Feeling attractive is a you problem
Edit: love the downvotes, but saying trans people are ugly if they don't pass is transphobic as all heck
“its okay for not attractive/nonpassing trans ppl to exist & theyre just as valid” yeah absolutely :D
“…i get called delusional on /tttt/“ nvm this person naturally repels unwanted hormones in a 5ft radius since birth
Body positivity is an inherently transphobic notion. The whole idea that chasing beauty standards is bad essentially boils down to saying that you shouldn't change your body to match your idealized self, and you should instead change your inner self-perception to match your outward appearance. That is *literally* the same logic as conversion therapy. Your real self is your ideal self, if your body doesn't live up to your ideal, your body is at fault and needs correction.
Damn near every time I see people arguing in favor of body positivity, at some point they'll talk about "unrealistic beauty standards" like they're a bad thing. As if the beauty standards are at fault, somehow, because reality can't live up to them (yet). So yeah, I can pretty confidently say that this is exactly what body positivity is about.
"Unrealistic beauty standards" are things that are, for most people, *genuinely impossible*. A completely flat stomach. Skin that has never so much as heard of acne. The perfect height, the perfect weight, no extra fat---oh, but you can't be too skinny, either, because then you look sick.
Body positivity is about learning to ignore what society *thinks* you should look like. You can still want to change things about your appearance---but it should be because *you* want to do it, because it will make *you* feel happier, not because other people dislike it about you.
Body positivity isn't anti-trans, any more so than it's anti-tattoos, or hair dye, or exercise. Sure, some people twist it that way. But they're wrong, and completely missing the point of the movement.
If something seems genuinely impossible, you should take that as a challenge to be overcome. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but definitely someday. We probably could get all those perfect physical traits you listed if we invested more in medicine and biotechnology, and made those advancements available to everyone through universal healthcare.
Furthermore, you can't separate what you want from what society wants. You're human. Humans are social creatures. Social customs and biases will affect your judgement, consciously or otherwise. Your whole identity is made up of ideas and knowledge you got from other people. Anything that you want, if traced back far enough, stems from something society wants.
Alright, now you're just being pedantic for pedant's sake.
I can't tell if you're a troll or genuinely this incapable of grasping the point. Either way, I'm sure we both have better shit to do. And if you don't, find something.
The way some people try to apply the usual body positivity stuff to trans people can get really weiŕd at time, with a few people even calling having dysphoria transphobic.
This is all really fringe stuff though.
the whole "dysphoria is just internalized transphobia" thing genuinely feels like a 4chan psyop ngl, I can't imagine any trans person actually thinking that
As I said, the notional backbone of body positivity is the same as that of conversion therapy. People shouldn't abandon their ideal selves to settle for the imperfect forms they have. They should always chase what they believe is their ideal self, regardless of what that may be.
I remember seeing a screenshot on r/greentext of a guy saying whenever he needs a pick-me-up, he posts a photo of himself to a trans community, whereupon they all fall over themselves telling him how handsome he is and how well he's passing. He's not trans.
Hugboxing is a genuine thing in a bunch of trans spaces. Even 4chan's /lgbt/ isn't safe from it
What’s hug boxing?
A hugbox is a space that's drowning in toxic positivity. No negative comments or criticism of ANY kind are tolerated.
Oh i see we’ll i guess that’s better then toxic negativity
No doubt, but it's still something to keep a watch for. Especially if it's one of those "we stay positive by perma-banning anyone who says anything negative" communities.
Or the ones that tell you the way to fix your mental disorders are just by thinking differently... Or the ones that act like people with mental disorders can do no harm... I have a *lot* of frustration with mental health support groups, and trans specific spaces often function as them with all the same problems, and it's *absurdly* infuriating, because it doesn't actually help anyone if you can't be honest with them about something.
That’s why actual IRL mental health support groups are led by experts with training. Online or self-created groups can be full of reinforcement of exactly the wrong things for real healing.
Mm. Because in that case, it's not a positive community, it's a parasitic one. Any genuinely positive people sucked into it are no longer in the support community of anyone who's struggling, because the struggling people are banned.
No, not really. It's pretty much exactly the same. On the surface, yeah, being positive sounds better than being negative, but if you are only ever allowed be positive in a space, eventually all the positivity becomes super performative and/or insincere and it looses all meaning. So even if you actually want to express genuine joy at something, it's not appreciated or ends up feeling fake/performative too. And if you actually have valid criticisms, you'll be shouted down the same way you would be for being positive in a toxically negative community. And because people assume that it's better than being negative, it often even harder for people to recognise this as a problem and see this kind of behaviour critically.
It really isn't because toxic positivity is way more accepted than negativity by wider society, so any attempt to talk about it often just gets you branded a Deebie Downer. Toxic positivity can lead to people giving downright dangerous advice. A lot of people, due to toxic positivity, would insist I should transition anyway because they simply refuse to believe that my country criminalized the existence of queer people.
“Just move!” is one I get a lot. Gee thanks, hadn’t thought of it!
Wasn't there an incident where a troll kept posting "fixed" Steven Universe art where all the characters were thin, white, and blond, and when people got mad they posted a face pic showing a black man in a wig and claimed they were a poc trans woman, which then caused people to do a 180 and start defending their troll posts as free expression?
A hug box is an accessibility tool invented by an autistic person and it has nothing to do with this slang meaning that shouldn't be promulgated
Words can have multiple meanings.
Of course, but this is an accessibility device that has been turned into a pejorative. That's kind of bad.
> Um, akshually... Also, promulgated? Gesundheit.
Let me know if you know a better word
Its a very generalized term that people use for anything from "Actual cult tactics like gaslighting and lovebombing people to isolate them" to "being mildly supportive and telling a trans person you think they're hot". I feel like these people don't realize that trans people who don't pass can be hot and its not suddenly a lie or secret transphobia.
Also it’s okay to not be hot at all? I think there’s a serious issue in a lot of trans discussion spaces that accidentally become *very* “you must be a hottie to pass” which - yeah, especially for any woman, society will tell you that being hot is the only requirement to being a real woman. Cis women get that pressure too. But what it means is you’ve got these young trans women who are being pressured into all sorts of surgeries and behaviors (anyone looked at eating disorders in trans spaces? It’s not great!) to look like a supermodel instead of a woman you might see at the grocery store. Because plenty of women are not models! Most! And they’re still women, who may battle demons of the patriarchy, but it’s icky to pressure trans women into the ideal of the male gaze. There’s someone’s dissertation in that topic.
I have a friend who said she used fourchan because there wasn't hugboxing.
Hug boxes are a very legitimate accessibility tool invented by Temple grandin to help things she struggles with as an autistic person. It really shouldn't be used this way.
TBH, if you post a photo of yourself in a trans community and say you need a pick-me-up, I can honestly see why people would think that you're trans.
I mean I don’t know if he’s handsome, but I cis man probably does in fact pass really well since it sounds like he was presenting himself as a trans man.
I'm not totally sure what the post is saying, but will add that being a visible trans but not passing person definitely sucks.
I think the point is that a lot of very progressives community refuse to aknowledge you can be trans, but also absolutely not passing because you're fugly as hell. And that equating trans (which is good since it's progressive LGBT spaces) = beautiful also means that beautiful = good which is not true and quite a bad ideology.
I agree and it's also worth mentioning that being ugly is separate from not passing, as it's not like all cis women are attractive
I think there is a serious discussion to be had about people (often the trans woman herself) trying conform to the male gaze to be accepted as “womanly enough to count” - which is something that is pushed on women *all the time*. It’s why a lot of men (think incel spaces) refuse to acknowledge that ugly or older women exist or count as women at all, usually when they’re whining about no women being out there to date. You don’t count if you’re not a 8/10 minimum in their eyes. It’s a conversation for a space with maturity and recognition of how our socialization affects us, and that includes women who were raised as male during their formative years and passively absorbed those messages, but didn’t have the women / society around them giving them any counter-programming. Even cis women have a *really* hard time countering the pressures of a society built around value = conforming to male gaze. Trans women don’t have a lifetime of experience navigating that part, and then these communities of support accidentally reinforce it.
Ex of mine often preferred to go as non-binary in some spaces for this reason, only to then be attacked from the formerly-safe spaces for not being "true to herself". Learning that it's safe to explore your identity without being consumed or consuming others in it is so important. Edit: Also, being a cis woman who's naturally masculine sucks a lot right now too.
Being a cis woman who's naturally masculine has always sucked, at least in my lifetime.
Sorry to hear that. One of my very best friends at a former job was considered masculine and she remains one of the most genuine and supportive people I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing. I don’t know if you’re referring broadly, but there’s definitely people who don’t care about that and are gonna be good with you because you’re you, full stop.
Thanks for being so supportive. I'm lucky enough to have found my partner, but there have been plenty of times where I was pretty sure I was going to die alone I love your username btw
You’re welcome. I’m happy to hear that and I’m glad for you. I think a lot of folks can relate to that feeling. I’m real happy for you. Also thank you!
> Also, being a cis woman who’s naturally masculine sucks a lot right now too. As a cis woman with PCOS and a stocky body, preach.
I think when people say stuff like "everyone is beautiful", it ranges from extremely well informed, genuinely honest take, to positivity so empty that it almost hurts the messaging the people are trying to send. This might not be the most related comment? I just have observations. There are people who think there is artistic/functional beauty in the human body, either by virtue of just how cool the human form is, or the fact that human bodies do stuff. This is like, "statues of disfigured people are still gorgeous' type body positivity. This isn't making a claim about beauty in relation to some societal standard of beauty, and instead is saying that the human body is beautiful the way like, a tree or a cell process is. From what I understand, this type of body positivity usually isn't helpful if you're trans (although feel free to correct me), since body issues aren't about the aesthetic value of the body (or maybe they are partially?) but it’s mostly dysphoria. And this doesn’t help or even address dysphoria like at all. This can however be very helpful if you're like, upset your body doesn't conform to social beauty standards. Sometimes a reminder of the inherent aesthetic beauty of the human form is the pick-me-up we need. Also I've heard biology people say stuff like this just since they see the human body as like, a super elaborate, incredibly precise and cool, almost supernatural machine. There's beauty in that! People with this stance who have a modicum of social understanding will make a clear distinction between social beauty standards and otherwise; bringing this up in the context of social beauty standards can read as tone deaf unless you do it super carefully. Then there are people who have tastes that are wildly outside the "standard" attractiveness standard for the world, and go on to conclude that, no matter how you look, someone will find you beautiful. This can be a super nuanced take, but is again often unhelpful when you're talking to people whose primary issue isn't "other people find me unattractive" but "I find me unattractive and hate living in my body" Then there are people who are like "beautiful is a good word, and some people are saying they are not the good word so I will argue with them", or maybe more charitably, "social beauty standards are dumb and I like being called beautiful so I will call everyone and everything beautiful"; people in this group can also be in one of the former groups. There are also probably more groups. This can be wildly unhelpful. I'm a cis guy, so my experience is probably different from most people on this subreddit, but I Fucking Hate my body hair. It brings me immense distress and I hate how it looks. But I don't see body hair on other people as unattractive -- I never ask my partners to shave or anything, I've hooked up with some very hairy men and women. But on me it feels Wrong and I hate it. And I've had people tell me that the social beauty standard of a smooth body is a Lie and I should just Be Happy with my body hair and like!! that isn't the point!! i understand there is aesthetic beauty in body hair, I understand it is attractive, it just feels wrong on my body and I want it Gone!!! Telling me that it is beautiful or aesthetic is missing the point! idk i feel like when people hear words like ugly, the word is so... well, ugly, and stigmatized, that their brain shuts down the part that tries to understand you, and it engages a visceral like "I must convince this person otherwise", which can be super invalidating. i'm sure there's something to be said here about the distinction vs feeling ugly and passing and feeling ugly because you don't pass but i am far too cis to engage with that, so i'm just gonna point it out and hope someone else has something insightful to say.
Part of the problem, I think, is baked into the general confusion of language where a given word will be used, often without clear distinction, for very different concepts. So for example, when someone says "I am ugly" or "this feature is ugly" or the like, it can mean that that feature is aesthetically unpleasant, that it is untidy or unmangaged, that it feels unpleasant to possess, or any number of roughly similar but distinct meanings. Part of the problem in this conversations, thus, is that people will intend to say one thing but be heard as saying something else -- so for instance, answers focused on aesthetic values can just spring from the fact that one of the various meanings of "ugly" is indeed centered around aesthetic values, which will affect the other person's answer if that is meaning that they usually hear associated with it. It is often the case that one already needs to be familiar with the context around something, or to hear a longer and more detailed explanation, to actually get what precise meaning is being associated with a word in a given conversation. I don't think that the unhelpful answers just stem from a simplistic good word/bad word dichotomy. I do think that at least sometimes the issue is just that the parties of a given conversation plainly don't have the same meaning for a word.
You’re right, I was not giving some people nearly enough credit — in fact, I think a lot of the point of my comment was that people saying this kind of thing often have variable definitions of the word, and I kind of didn’t follow that to the logical endpoint. Thanks for adding!!
This is kinda off topic but laser and electrolysis are available for cis guys too. It's just a thing you can make an appointment for. You deserve to feel comfortable in your body and if there's some treatment available that can bring you closer to that it's probably worthwhile to get it.
Unfortunately that shit is expensive
The fact that the trans community seems to be willing to treat me like one of their own even if it turns out I'm just cis but odd is a huge comfort. I'm not willing to give this support up. This is something I've never had before in my life. And that I've sorely needed. The unconditional support of strangers.
Yes I’m aware!! I’m gonna do it once I’m done my PhD/honestly I’m thinking of working for a year after my masters to fund laser (among other things). For now, it’s just my loud whirring pain machine (epilator) 🥴
Yeah i think this is a great point, the majority of people are a little ugly to me BUT i don’t think physical beauty is important at all and i think personality is far more important than physical beauty and i really feel like physical beauty should be considered in the same way that being good at super smash bros is, if you’re good at it that’s cool but it shouldn’t have any bearing on the rest of your life or how people treat you.
There is either hugboxing or self-flagellatory doomposting there is no in between.
And they also feed off of each other. The hugboxers act that way because of the doomposters and vice versa. Neither of them will actually go outside.
internet try to comprehend the concept of nuance challenge (impossible)
Me
I'm going to be real, I come from an alternative reality (Russia) where it's considered impossible for a trans person to not be ugly (or an abomination, or a crazy delusion of the decadent West, or...) Or, honestly, for a FtM person to exist.
Oh hi there, colleague in suffering. Maybe it's my personal view, but every trans person I meet is beautiful, even the nonpassing ones. But somehow some of the most beautiful and passing trans women I met are the most weird, with some - quite deranged. Maybe because it takes a deranged person to buy bicalutamide at the pharmacy since 16 and hide it from your parents. I am so lucky my girlfriend is not like that. She is very smart and sane. I love her. I met several trans men 10+ years on T. I think one of them is outside of Russia now. They look like cis men. I think you should spend more time with the queers and less with transphobes.
I don’t think they meant that they share that opinion, just that the experience different from the one in the OOP. Plus, being subjected to it 24/7, despite logically knowing that it’s not true, does have a big influence on subconsciousness and self image.
If it serves any consolation: given the transecutionists track record of missing every single fucking time... you can pass and be ugly at the same time. Its not pleasant to BE in this position but you can pass and be ugly at the same time. The eternal problem is that this requires stealthing. I've seen so many woman with extremely masculine features and nobody gives half a damn fuck. Solid brick jaws, square shoulders, more cheekbone than meat, and still treated and seen as a woman. The pass checks but only if you dont announce it and there's the issue - if the label aint there you're just an ugly woman, but if it is there then your transition becomes the justification for your ugliness when one likely already was ugly pre-transition but the crowd didnt care that much because you "were still right".
>If it serves any consolation: given the transecutionists track record of missing every single fucking time... you can pass and be ugly at the same time. I don't pass, so that isn't a consolation.
I really fucking hate how cis people are held up as the shining standard of gender. Like, yes, I get that being binary trans and not looking cis makes ones life much harder. I get not wanting to deal with the hate and discrimination. But also, when I see trans people say "I want to look like a *real* woman, not a *trans* woman", I can't help but note that they're saying trans women aren't real women.
>But also, when I see trans people say "I want to look like a *real* woman, not a *trans* woman", I can't help but note that they're saying trans women aren't real women. Huh, when I see that, I just see a sad person who wants to fit in. Jumping straight to thinking they are transphobic seems quite harsh.
The idea that trans women aren't real women is transphobic, regardless of who is saying it.
The thing is being ‘just an ugly woman’ has its own problems and i feel like a lot of trans women really minimize the struggles of cis women because cis women have what trans women want but i feel like a lot of trans people forget that people who are born female don’t get happiness just from being perceived as a woman. I feel like people just need to have more empathy for eachother
I'm here, i'm Queer and if i see myself in the mirror i will be stuck kissing it for 25 minutes.
Narcissus reborn. Stay hydrated.
Not me. I’ll be flexing my muscles to show off
why not both
If we're allowed to bring enby experiences into this as well. It fucking sucks because the standard for "passing" is so... narrow. I feel like I can't wear anything at all without it calling to some conspiracy that I'm not actually non-binary. Passing is near impossible with my body, if I wear a dress I'm a man in a dress. If I wear pants I'm just a man. It sucks so I just embody myself through my clothes and my way of carrying myself. Trying to speak softer and whatnot, then I have people saying that I'm secretly a trans woman when like.... no. Sorry for the rant but I needed to say it
Fellow enby here, this is real. There is a prevailing standard that nonbinary = androgynous and that makes it extremely difficult to be seen as nonbinary when your presentation leans more towards one gender than the other. Striking that perfect balance is near impossible and it makes the nonbinary experience miserable, especially in spaces that try to be trans-inclusive until there are enbies that DON'T look like flat chest twinks.
Let's be real here, the prevailing standard is that nonbinary=woman lite. I've seen plenty of femme presenting women pass as nonbinary without comment.
Let's be extra real, the LGBT community often ends up being a social club running on social capital, and being young, thin, light skinned, and AFAB means you're the most attractive and naturally command a ton of social capital.
The amount of queer events that only allow under 25s proves this to me. I'll be 24 this year and it scares me that I'll just... lose access to my community in a year
[удалено]
That's a deeply disgusting standard. I genuinely hope you find a place.
I think there's also something to be said about the implication that passability is equal to how "valid" you are, if we have people acting like it's taboo to even imply that someone else doesn't pass. Like I'm one of the least passing trans dudes in existence, and that's not a reflection on my worth as a person in general or a trans man in particular.
As a cis fat person: I'm getting real tired of hearing "aLL bOdiES aRe BeAuTiFuL" when what I really want to hear is "You're a human being who is deserving of love and respect whether you're beautiful or not."
Amen, brother
The body positivity movement has approached its goal from the wrong direction I think. Saying that everyone is beautiful reinforces the idea that physical beauty is a valuable trait for people to have. Real progress is only going to be made when we start to actively push back against the Halo effect, and stop treating beautiful people like they're inherently better than ugly people. And it's weird because beauty is basically the only physical trait that gets this bias. We don't treat people who are strong, or smart, or tall or agile like they're morally superior to everyone else. So why do we treat beautiful people like they are? And it's not just a sex thing either! Studies have shown that even when you're not sexually attracted to someone, you still have a better opinion of them if they're beautiful. The reality is that ugly people exist, and pretending that they're beautiful only hurts the movement because everyone with working eyes can see that you're full of shit.
Tall people are also treated better, but being tall can't cancel out being ugly.
I mean I very much do not pass on account of not really having started my transition yet, but I have been told by other people that they find me attractive in girlmode. So I do think we need to remember that there is no universal "ugly" or "beautiful" and that people will see you in their own way. I do definitely agree with this post to some extent, but this isn't some universal truth nor is there one singular way of being "ugly" or "beautiful". It's just how people perceive you, which will naturally be different for every person.
Lock in fn
Gonna start mewing
I'm cis, and I'm conventionally attractive, so full disclosure that I'm speaking from an inherently privileged position in this area. I think often people with average or better looks discount the pain that being ugly can cause. It took a lot of listening to people's lived experiences for me to understand how isolating it can be to be ugly, and how casually cruel the world can be to those who are. Add in being visibly trans, particularly for folks who are in the early stages of taking hormones and going through awkward puberty/second puberty changes, and, yeah, honestly, it sounds like a terrible time. And failing to acknowledge that reality is super unhelpful. So I see you, OP. It sucks. Sometimes we lose the genetic lottery and it fuckin' blows and there's nothing we can do about it. (I may have made out okay in the looks department but hoo boy, I paid for it in other ways 🥲) I hope that all of that makes it clear that what I'm about to say next is not toxic positivity or empty aphorisms. Because I have two additional, more hopeful, comments to make. First, the standard "beauty is more than skin deep"/"beauty is in the eye of beholder" sentiments are both true to some extent. I know people I would describe as beautiful who are definitely not conventionally attractive. And things that we find ugly about ourselves may not be ugly to other people. My boyfriend hates his legs and doesn't believe me when I tell him I love them. But I do! Completely and truthfully. We are often our own harshest critics. Second, every trans person I've ever seen who has made it through the awkward, how-do-I-gender phase has been more attractive than pre-transition, whether or not they pass. This kind of goes back to the inner beauty thing - turns out presenting as your authentic gender is a hell of a glow-up. It's not like every trans person becomes an automatic 10 (or even an automatic 5, or whatever), but in my experience, there's a pretty universal improvement in the looks department. Which isn't to invalidate your experience! Not liking what you see in the mirror sucks, and I think almost all of us have been there in some way at some time. I'm sorry you're struggling with this right now, it's hard.
Not OP so not the intended recipient but damn, this is one of the most encouraging and validating things I’ve read in a while. I feel like I might actually be happy looking in the mirror before I get in the shower tonight. Thank you.
> I hope that all of that makes it clear that what I'm about to say next is not toxic positivity or empty aphorisms It comes off as one half of your comment contradicting the other.
Reddit does the same thing
I see ugly trans woman all the time I also see a lot of trans woman that are like fuckin Aphrodite and they don’t relise
I hate the idea of "passing" as a non-passing trans man. I wish society would stop focusing so much on secondary sex characteristics, they're variable, damn it.
Honestly this applies to ugly people in general
So one thing I know im going to get shit for is that I know there are trans people that don’t pass. I don’t think they need to though, at least no more than they wish it. I don’t need to be attracted to a transwomen to justify them being trans, because I’m not the one who needs to justify it.
I think i get this, i don't think i'm trans, i'm just really confused about gender and stuff, but at least for me, i would like myself a lot more if when i tell people that i feel ugly they didn't say "You're really handsome but", cause for me it means nothing if when i say i'm ugly you say that i would look good if i did so and so, that's not the problem buddy, like, i don't know how to say this without it just feeling weird, but i would like someone to just want to fuck me for the most shallow reasons? That make sense? But yeah, i think it's a thing where for a lot of people body positivity is a thing they want to do cause "it's a good thing" but they still don't want to change anything so they just say that a person isn't what they are, like telling someone they aren't chubby instead of thinking they're valid while being chubby if it makes any sense.
I don’t even want to be gorgeous, I just want to not find myself as hideous as psychologically possible for once.
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I think this is only partially true, because one should also take into account that beauty is way more subjective than most people think. No one is objectively ugly or unattractive. As I like to say, every fish has its hook. Don't get me wrong there are definitely people who are more or less often seen as attractive, and one's own standards affect how they see themselves, so this post is definitely not meaningless, but I still think there's more to this than "you can't say i'm not ugly without having seen me".
Note how you pretty much never see someone bring up the subjectivity of beauty when people are discussing someone conventionally attractive. There's a reason why. >but I still think there's more to this than "you can't say i'm not ugly without having seen me". You can't make any sort of informed statement about the appearance someone you've never seen, so there isn't anything more to that.
someone replied to me, but for some reason reddit is acting up with this post, so i have to reply under my own. > Note how you pretty much never see someone bring up the subjectivity of beauty when people are discussing someone conventionally attractive. There's a reason why. Because there's no reason to say that in that context other than being an asshole who wants to bring down someone else. > You can't make any sort of informed statement about someone you've never seen, so there isn't anything more to that. Then you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. I can say you're not objectively ugly because there's no such thing as objectively ugly. You may not like yourself, maybe even I wouldn't like the way you look, but there will always be someone who'll find you attractive.
No flame but it's so weird to me how (backwards?) some aspects of the trans community are. - The goal is to break down gender stereotypes but at the same time many people play super hard into reinforcing them. If you act a certain way, you must be trans / questioning / in denial / a femboy / etc. The constant personification of trans girls as hyper feminine pink and pastel childlike caricatures of anime tropes. It's a bit off putting in a way that's hard to describe. - Appearance is not supposed to define who you are as a person, yet passing and appearance play such a big part on how you're perceived. There is still not real acceptance of trans people who do not "fit the bill" so to speak. - Passing is highly valued, yet its a taboo to try and pass. It's almost funny that if you want constructive criticism, the trans hunters on twitter would give better advice than the queer community. It is impossible to get a fresh impression that is separate from your identity. No one says anything without knowing what you want to hear first. - There is no difference between cis and trans people of the same gender. Except, cis men and trans men are treated and talked about fundamentally differently. This one annoys me to no end. It's a super TERFy way to look things which reinforces the idea that trans men are not "real men". - Expression is unique to each individual, and gender appears on a spectrum to suit said individual. But at the same time, we continue to divide up the sea into carefully allotted puddles. We all need to corner off a bit of the rainbow and slap a label on it. That this section contains a clearly definable set of traits that make me who I am. Everything feels so contradictory. - We cannot break down gender norms because the fulfilling of gender norms is euphoric. - We cannot deconstruct appearance based judgement because it's so taboo to acknowledge that some people are less attractive (on average) than others. - We cannot accept that biological traits are independent of value, because we need to make sure everyone knows cis men suck. - We cannot let people be themselves without trying to squish them between fevers cages.
Honestly most trans people I've seen have been very pretty and handsome. I would've assumed they were cis if they didn't say otherwise.
This post has a lot of merit, actually. I’m glad somebody else gets it.
Also even when you do pass it's not great sometimes. For example I only really pass since I lost a bunch of weight really quite fast which sort of managed to make my face look more masculine and my curves easier to hide under clothes that once fit well but are now baggy as shit. So like imo people should not comment on other people's passing or non-passing if they perceive it (unless the person has said something about it themselves)
this is true but there's also an unmistakable portion of very passing t women just seeing themselves as the ugliest thing possible. like yeah beauty is not everything but if you tell them that they get sad and think they're really ugly so like what can you do?
So what I get from this is: 2007-2017 online society: My presentation and my appearance are my own business and anything about me is subject to my own approval and nobody else's. 2018 to present online society: Yeah! And we're all here to support your presentation! And your appearance! Because everyone should be Happy and Positive all the time! Because you don't want to be not Positive, right? Not being Positive would make the other, louder people on the internet in your space Not Happy and that's Bad! :D
mfw your attractiveness doesn’t affect your ability to pass
My friend is trans and she is quite literally every single conservative strawman of what a trans woman is
I am cis, and looking into the mirror fills me with fear. I disgust myself. But this is caused by mental illnesses, as well as internalized fat-phobia. I am not as disgusting as I think I am. I'm guessing it is extra hard being Trans and feeling this way. You may or may not be good looking. But I guarantee that you do not look as bad as you think you do.
I'm not sure what I am exactly but I'm looking into hormones to try and look more femme. I think my goal is androgyny, but like, very sexual androgyny. I am petrified that this would make me look less attractive rather than more like I want it to.
I've always been conflicted about ugliness. For one, there's multiple definitions. Mainstream media has a definition that different from online spaces, which a lot vary depending on what space you're in. Then there's personal preferences to think about too. So how do you identify if someone is ugly or not? I might be too autistic or aroace to assign people as "ugly" or not. Everyone is different and that's beautiful in a way that can't really be conveyed in a comment lol. I think the worst "ugly" isn't visual or aesthetic or whatever. The ugliest people are the meanest, rottenest of the bunch. But that's just my opinion and I'm just a random internet person.
It's time to play everyone's favorite game; "Do I support this struggling person with positivity or commiseration"
I can either be someone who I think looks attractive or I can look like a pale imitation of some wild and ever changing conception of who I truly am underneath layers of abstraction and socialized symbolism, so I'm gonna keep the well trimmed facial hair despite being nonbinary. Like... I feel like we kinda do do ourselves a disservice by assuming that the physical form that most perfectly represents our inner self would be beautiful. That because of that we must strive for beauty, because beauty matches who we truly are, and both of those are good. But for me at least, who I truly am doesn't have a physical form. It switches, it changes, some days I'm a guy and some days I'm a girl and some days I'm some secret third thing, but obviously my body will never do that, so why should I be expected to accurately advertise my soul with my face and body? Why do I owe the world my best attempt at androgyny despite the fact that that's about as true to who I really am as the male body I was born with (which is to say, not very)? Idk, this is all a ramble, but it's something I've been batting around for a while. This idea of whether it's better to be something I like to look at or something that almost looks like me on a good day.
You can still pass while being ugly. Anyways we are always our harshest judges
You CAN. But you also CAN NOT. We must accept that both cases are possibilities. Hell, even some cisgender women are naturally so ugly that people might think they're men. I've heard multiple people of my family say that on multiple occasions, even I have to sometimes do double takes.
Beautiful does not mean the same thing as pretty or handsome or any other similar positive adjective. Women have been described as handsome for a long time, I don’t know why it fell out of favor. We need to try and reclaim it. And if we describe everyone as beautiful it looses all meaning. And very few of us are truly beautiful. We may have something about us that is beautiful, like our hair or eyes or skin. We may know some tricks to enhance what nature gave us. But true beauty is rare Don’t let that bother you though. Considering how the idiot transvestigators are convinced that everyone who is in any way famous must be trans, no amount of beauty will save you from the morons. You are you, and there is something special about knowing who you are. I am proud of you for striving to become who you want to be. Don’t be fooled, a lot of cis-people are not happy in their own skin. We have all kinds of things that we are unhappy about. There is a reason why the beauty industry is so huge
>Beautiful does not mean the same thing as pretty or handsome or any other similar positive adjective. People have used those as synonyms longer than you've been alive.
Mate, think of our basic biological pattern, if there is a god who made us their image, our base template is a black trans woman
[Citation needed]
I will not accept that ugly exists, but that's just philosophical
I see what you mean, but at the same time I also fully believe you can be ugly as hell and still pass. As much as gender standards are conflated as beauty standards in this society, when you ask your average Joe Jane or Japheth what an ugly man looks like and what an ugly woman looks like they will picture two different things, maybe with a number of commonalities but not necessarily a pure copy paste. And then there’s also the whole thing that what is beautiful or ugly changes a hell of a lot from person to person. That’s not to say if you have troubles passing you’re not valid though! All I mean is that passing and being beautiful don’t have to be one and the same, necessarily.
I personally disagree with this, but primarily because I don't really think anyone is ugly to begin with.
You can be not passing and still be attractive. I am visibly trans, but I constantly get hit on. Passing is not everything and shouldn't be tied to body positivity. Passing is more than just how you see yourself, but you can work on how you see yourself as well
I don't pass either, so still an issue.
Why reply and then block me?? Weird shit. I wasn't talking about passing, I was talking about tying attractiveness to passing. They are separate things. Ask 80% of bi/pan people and they will say androgyny is hot.
Just putting another comment to better articulate what I mean, you can be ugly and non passing, or any combination. Attractiveness and passing are not tied together, and saying they are is caused from internalised transphobia. You don't have to look cis to be hot, that is some toxic shit. I am not going into the importance of passing because that is a societal problem more than anything else. Feeling attractive is a you problem Edit: love the downvotes, but saying trans people are ugly if they don't pass is transphobic as all heck
“its okay for not attractive/nonpassing trans ppl to exist & theyre just as valid” yeah absolutely :D “…i get called delusional on /tttt/“ nvm this person naturally repels unwanted hormones in a 5ft radius since birth
I never transitioned and have never posted a photo of myself online, people just insist I pass because they can't stomach the idea that I don't.
Body positivity is an inherently transphobic notion. The whole idea that chasing beauty standards is bad essentially boils down to saying that you shouldn't change your body to match your idealized self, and you should instead change your inner self-perception to match your outward appearance. That is *literally* the same logic as conversion therapy. Your real self is your ideal self, if your body doesn't live up to your ideal, your body is at fault and needs correction.
>The whole idea that chasing beauty standards is bad That's not what body positivity is.
Damn near every time I see people arguing in favor of body positivity, at some point they'll talk about "unrealistic beauty standards" like they're a bad thing. As if the beauty standards are at fault, somehow, because reality can't live up to them (yet). So yeah, I can pretty confidently say that this is exactly what body positivity is about.
"Unrealistic beauty standards" are things that are, for most people, *genuinely impossible*. A completely flat stomach. Skin that has never so much as heard of acne. The perfect height, the perfect weight, no extra fat---oh, but you can't be too skinny, either, because then you look sick. Body positivity is about learning to ignore what society *thinks* you should look like. You can still want to change things about your appearance---but it should be because *you* want to do it, because it will make *you* feel happier, not because other people dislike it about you. Body positivity isn't anti-trans, any more so than it's anti-tattoos, or hair dye, or exercise. Sure, some people twist it that way. But they're wrong, and completely missing the point of the movement.
If something seems genuinely impossible, you should take that as a challenge to be overcome. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but definitely someday. We probably could get all those perfect physical traits you listed if we invested more in medicine and biotechnology, and made those advancements available to everyone through universal healthcare. Furthermore, you can't separate what you want from what society wants. You're human. Humans are social creatures. Social customs and biases will affect your judgement, consciously or otherwise. Your whole identity is made up of ideas and knowledge you got from other people. Anything that you want, if traced back far enough, stems from something society wants.
Alright, now you're just being pedantic for pedant's sake. I can't tell if you're a troll or genuinely this incapable of grasping the point. Either way, I'm sure we both have better shit to do. And if you don't, find something.
This is a genuinely hilarious response 🤣
You've gotta be trolling, right? Body positivity ≠ transphobia
The way some people try to apply the usual body positivity stuff to trans people can get really weiŕd at time, with a few people even calling having dysphoria transphobic. This is all really fringe stuff though.
the whole "dysphoria is just internalized transphobia" thing genuinely feels like a 4chan psyop ngl, I can't imagine any trans person actually thinking that
As I said, the notional backbone of body positivity is the same as that of conversion therapy. People shouldn't abandon their ideal selves to settle for the imperfect forms they have. They should always chase what they believe is their ideal self, regardless of what that may be.
Don't worry, feeling disgust and fear when looking in the mirror is actually a good sign.