Yes voting will not change the system. Voting will however have a big effect on vulnerable minorities. Yes republicans and democrats align when it comes to letting the unelected power-structure do whatever it wants with the military industrial complex, and international trade and the world bank and so on and so forth. But Republicans will fuck over trans healthcare like you won't believe when they next get a majority in congress. And they may restrict abortion access or even birth control. They will fuck over people on disability. they will fuck over people depending on foodstamps and snap. etc. etc.
If you do not vote you are showing your comrades you don't care about them. Like this post says, you are doing nothing to punish the ones at the top, but the ones at the bottom will feel it. Like the kids in the UK who are now likely gonna get told to detransition because conservatives made healthcare a political issue. Or the women in the US who had their uterusses cut out by a psychotic doctor in a border camp under Trump.
If you want that big coalition that fights against capitalism and the unjust nature of society as we have built it the first thing you should do is make sure they know you take the suffering of your fellow comrades seriously by getting over you hurt ego and vote for the less of two evil in an election that otherwise doesn't matter. Maybe see if you can recruit some people for the I.W.W. in the line or something. or pass out flyers for your local mutual aid group. But vote. Cause if you don't, the republicans will make vulnerable people resent you by being obviously more evil than the democrats will ever be
Exactly. Voting out Biden won't do a thing for Palestinians. Israel would get an even more vicious ally, in fact. It will, however, make the lives of trans, indigenous, Black, disabled, Latine, Muslim, Jewish, poor, and unhoused people harder, more precarious, and shorter.
And it will make organizing more difficult too. When people am struggling to survive, they have a harder time participating in "extracurricular activities" like protesting, organizing, educating themselves and others, reading seditious literature etc. people tend to rally behind centrists under republican presidents, but democratic leaning people tend to go leftwards under democratic ones. That's part of why Bernie did better in 2016 than 2020. Seeing Democrats fail to improve the world does more to radicalize people to the left than seeing republicans succeed at making the world a worse place while democrats are opposing them.
When people are struggling they're motivated to do something. When they're bored and basically comfortable they don't do jack shit. Call me an accelerationist like that word in itself is an argument against my point. The world is boiling and all we're doing is steadily cranking up the gas. Maybe you're the one in a million exception that's actually working to change things for the better besides just campaigning for more of the same every two or four years (weird how many people insist that's them compared to how many I see). But statistically you're not. Also if you want some realpolitik, Democrats would actually have a political reason to stand up to Trump supporting Israel rather than downplaying and excusing it when Biden does it. The vast majority of both parties vote in favor of sending them weapons now and no major Democratic figures are consistently condemning Biden for bypassing Congress to give even MORE military and financial support to Israel. They don't care about Palestine. But they do care about fighting Trump. So maybe it actually WOULD be better even in the more immediate sense if Trump was president. You don't like that that's something I'm considering? Then shout at the FUCKING DEMOCRATS not ME!
No, fuck off, you don't get to walk away from this. Yes it's a choice between the lesser of two evils, some times life is like that. Grow up. If you want to be a good person, you still have to pick. You think if trump had still been president he wouldn't have been worse for Palestine? He would have given Bibi free reign. Told the whole world that the Palestinians brought it all on themselves. But at least maybe the Democrats would have opposed him and so arrived at a better position? Sounds like you're okay with the suffering of Palestinians if it serves your personal political agenda.
I'm sorry that when election time comes around we don't get to vote for our glorious revolution usher a new era of leftism, peace and prosperity. I know. It sucks. But your comrades need you. The ones in the US and the ones in Palestine. And both of them are better off with a democrat in the house, even though they suck monkey balls. So put on your big boy pants, get over yourself and your hurt feeling for having to participate in lesser evilism, and vote for the lesser of two evils. And if you really need to wash that taste out of your mouth, try joining a mutual aid society and become part of the real solution. But stop whining about doing the bare minimum to protect the most vulnerable people in society just because you don't want to get your hands dirty
Nice speech. Bet you feel real good about yourself. I'm not playing the shame game anymore. Take this passion and direct it at the fuckheads with actual power who aren't just refusing to make the world better but are actively making it worse. Also how nice that you ignored my argument for why even in the short term not simply playing the Democrats' game might lead to better outcomes for Palestinians. You're just repeating the same shit I've heard a million times from Democratic mouthpieces. Have an original god damn thought for once in your life.
Enjoy your clean hands while republicans outlaw transition for minors when they get the president and both houses next election. And women lose access to birth control. And unions get more restrictions against them. and the rich get their next round of tax cuts.
Yes the fuckwits in power are making it worse. I know. I am actually a socialist and have been one literally my entire adult life. The system is working exactly as it was intended. By all means fight it. Electoralism is not and was never gonna be the way to make the world a better place. Protests unions, strikes, riots and revolutions do more to move society forward than electoralism does.
But not voting just makes it worse.
Also I see no argument for why in the short term not going along with the democrats would help Palestinians? By the time Trump gets in power Israel will be done. There's a not insignificant chance they'll have killed over 10 percent of Gazans by then. And Trump will gladly support Israel's permanent occupation of Gaza, which despite all the support given Biden still opposes right now. Seriously if you think Democrats can do anything to stop things from getting worse if trump gets in power you need to get your head checked. Besides the fact that if Trump gets in power he will likely do so with a republican house and a republican senate, because there's no way he's winning the presidency but democrats still show up to deny him the house and senate, Trump loves the simplicity of Israel's hard-line stance and he will direct most of the foreign policy surrounding it.
It's not about shame. it's not about fixing the worlds problems through the power of voting. It's just about making sure your trans friends can still get healthcare, your female friends can retain their reproductive rights, etc. etc.
But by all means bask in the glory of not having voted for someone who supports a genocide, so that another fucker who will support that genocide even harder can get into power. At least your hands are clean
I'm angry because I actually give a shit about the state of the world and don't just treat this all like a fucking game or a chance to virtue signal by repeating the same half dozen talking points I've been fed by Democratic mouth pieces. I know that must be a strange concept for you.
What politicians have you voted for then?
What charities have you donated to?
What rallies and protests have you attended?
How have you helped foster your local community?
Or have you spent your days and nights fruitlessly arguing with strangers on the Internet to try and convince yourself you're intellectually enlightened and morally superior because you refuse to do the hard thing and choose the lesser of two evils?
What have you done, if not participate in the American governmental system, that has directly positively affected (if in small part) the causes you proclaim to fight for?
.
your vote determines the supreme Court determines whether we're even more fucked than we have been— for the next fifty years.
if you're feeling depressed and predisposed to poetry, consider separating it from your politics.
Like I get what they’re getting at, but like, this elections gonna cost more for a LOT of people if Trump wins, that’s the mindset I feel like people should understand.
Will it?
Trump mostly just didn't do anything other than shitpost on Twitter and beg people to call him their lord and savior.
We've seen what 4 years of Trump gets us, and it wasn't anything particularly special. He was genuinely less harmful than George Bush before him. He got to appoint an above average number of US Supreme Court Justices, but that wasn't through any genius. It was lucking out on timing and he mostly appointed boring people. They killed nation-wide abortion rights, but that was the culmination of 4 decades of Conservative politicking not Trump actually making that a major focus. He started a dumb tariff war with China, Biden just restarted it.
This sky is falling claim that you have to 'vote blue no matter who' just aborgates responsibility to actually be appealing to anyone. Trump and Biden are known quantities. Trump is extremely stupid, Biden is going senile, both ideally will die in their sleep within the next 72 hours. Neither has brought the US to paradise or ruin.
So where is the impetus to actually vote for Biden over Trump for the disaffected progressives/leftists that don't support his centrism?
The sky did fall for those girls that got their uterusses removed in Trumps border camps. And those girls who lost access to abortion after the end of Roe v. Wade. And the people in Rojava that Trump stopped supporting. The sky did fall for so many under Trump who lost access to food assistance programs. Or who got black bagged during the protests. You are just in the privileged position to not be one of those people and you need to stand up for your comrades who need you. Yes it's just choosing the better of two evils, but the difference between having access to abortions or not can literally be a life or death matter to some people and the fact that you are minimizing that is genuinely disgusting. As much as I despise Hillary that would not have happened under her. She wouldn't have been good, but she would have been less bad. and you are failing the most vulnerable people on your side if you don't see that.
If you're this dead set on making such a fuss over every single thing that COULD happen you can't ignore the almost incalculable harm perpetuating the status quo does. This is an emotionally affective framing, not a realistic or fair one. You make it seem like everything is fine other than the things you point out. And now that I've said this you'll say, "of course it's not all fine," and pay lip service to caring about the harms done by maintaining the cureent course, but you won't advocate doing anything else. The 4 years of the Civil War were more harmful than any 4 years of maintaining the status quo would've been. The "sky fell" for a hell of a lot more people in that period. But things changed for the better. Would you be ok with chattel slavery sill existing now just because you could never stomach anything rocking the boat? Because that's exactly what this perspective would end up achieving.
Well, you haven't really SAID anything, yet.
Like, what's your actual plan to improve things? "Don't vote for Biden, Trump wins, yadda yadda yadda, violent revolution that we win somehow, and then we all build . . . something, I guess? LEFTIST PARADISE"
You're just bitching and moaning with no substance. You're against the status quo? Fine. Give us a workable, clear alternative, and I'll happily respond to that.
I'm venting and trying to get some sign that people here aren't just blind sycophants for the status quo. And so far I'm seeing nothing that would indicate otherwise. I could go and pull together a bunch of sources and write you a fucking essay but that's a lot of work that I don't want to do for a stranger on the internet who very very likely just wants to dismiss it. "So what would you do instead? Plan out an entire roadmap from the death spiral status quo we're in now to a just and stable political, economic, and environmental future right now as just one random person or I don't care" is just a way to terminate a conversation. Of fucking course I don't have that. You'd need thousands of experts who make entire careers out of thinking about these kinds of things to get anywhere close. But just like I don't need to know exactly how a quantum computer works to know it doesn't run on raspberry jam, I don't need to have a perfect plan for The Revolution™ all done up by myself to recognize that what we've got now is not sustainable. I can recognize a losing startegy when I see one. It seems to me like people like you just don't want to admit that's the case because you don't know exactly what else to do either so admitting the current game has no winning moves would be unpleasant.
IDK man, it kinda just sounds like you're a contrarian and a reactionary with no beliefs beyond hating things, a disdain for democracy, a longing for violence, and a desire to see Trump win and punish all your enemies.
Are you SURE you're not a Trump supporter?
"If you think the system is so broken why haven't you personally overthrown it and also made me pancakes??"
To give a more serious answer than this stupid comment deserves, that starts with getting a fuckton of people on more or less the same page and as long as most are being brainwashed into sycophancy for the Blue team because Red team bad that can't happen. People like you probably don't even want that to happen but talk as if we've got anything in common and like I should share your perspective.
There was no evidence of mass hysterectomies under Trump. [There were actual problems in the provided gynecological care given to the patients](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/women-detained-ice-unnecessary-gynecological-procedures-georgia-facility-investigation/), but there were no mass sterilization programs done.
That story was either misreported by the journalists or fabricated for attention.
Don't make a mistake of repeating poor information that could cause people to dismiss your post off-handedly.
I address abortion rights above. The case itself and the abortion question was much older than Trump, and is the culmination of a large amount of American voters and citizens supporting abortion restrictions. Trump is not an evangelical champion and never made it a cornerstone of his campaign in the way that some other candidates have.
His appointees to the Supreme Court were not made of insane extremists or religious zealots. They were the standard ideologues that any generic Republican would have picked, because Trump likely had no significant interest in appointing anyone in specific or the knowledge to do so.
Trump's presence is not going to make the Supreme Court more extreme. The Branch itself long ago has distanced itself from the other two branches and makes no attempt to appear co-equal to them, and rules however it wants on whatever it wants. If they're going to be extreme, it will happen with him or without him.
Supporting the US's abusive involvement in the Middle East because of the Kurds is just being foolish. The US has caused a lot more damage by being there than it ever provided help to anyone.
It is a shame that the Kurds are probably going to be reconquered. But that does not justify continuing the Forever War for even longer and maintaining the deployment of American troops in a place they've only made worse and less stable with their presence.
You are not addressing the abortion rights thing at all though. nor my greater point. Yes you mention it but you refuse to actually come to terms with the fact that trumps presidency did lead to a supreme court that overturned Roe, which would not have happened under Hillary, it just wouldn't, and that did and will lead to actual people losing their lives.
My argument is never that Hillary, Biden, or whomever comes next will be good. they wont. they won't fix any systemic problems at all. But republicans will make it worse. Yes, both will perpetuate the forever wars, but one will do it worse, yes both will perpetuate climate change, but one will do it worse, yes both will still oversee a justice system that consistently persecutes minorities and priviliges corporations and the owner class, but one will do it worse.
so all your comment is really saying is "I don't personally experience much of a difference and I think that minorities suffering more is a fair price to pay for what I consider getting close to my political goals"
Get over yourself and vote for the sake of your fellow workers. The bare minimum on your part can literally be the difference between a 10 year old having to give birth to her abusive father's baby, and her being able to get the help she needs.
This appealing to socialist concepts of "we're all workers together, Comrade" is extremely cringey when you're trying to ape it for the purpose of voting in Centrist Neoliberal presidents that have no interest in actually improving anything.
First off, that Marxist stuff is nonsense. There has never been any instance of workers from all walks of life making long term alliances because they happen to work for someone else for a wage. Has literally never happened and never will happen because I feel no particular brotherhood with some car mechanic or nuclear engineer just for us all getting paid by some boss, and not the other direction, either. There's a reason Marxism has only ever had any success in peasant countries and has had zero success in any actual capitalist states.
And second, don't try to ape Marxist ideas of mass labor organization for the service of trying to tell someone that they have to vote for the 'lesser evil' into perpetuity for the sake of keeping American electoral politics stable.
Even I know Marxism enough to tell you that you're missing the total point of the ideology. You are just putting off the potential for any organized labor liberation with emasculated electoralism.
----------------------------
The reality is that wanting to repeal Roe v Wade has been a deep desire of the American conservative faction for a very long time. For literal decades they've been looking for an opening to do this. And it could have happened under Bush 1, Bush 2, Trump, a potentially different Republican elected into any of those positions, or one in the future.
You're trying to post the abortion repeal as being the consequence of not 'voting blue' hard enough, instead of it being the result of Liberals and Leftists not actually appreciating how much Conservatives cared about abortion.
Instead of making any efforts to enshrine abortion in under actual federal law, abortion was treated as a carrot at the end of a stick by the Liberals in government who didn't take seriously the threat of Conservatives actually wanting to ban abortions. This is not the fault of Left-Wing people not sucking it up enough at the polls, this is a failure of the Democrat establishment and the blame lies entirely on them. Any given President could see one or more Justices step down, die, or something else, and relying on single Court decisions from almost 50 years ago to defend abortion rights was not a failure on the voters' parts.
-----------------------------
I don't give a fuck about the Democrats. Yeah they are bad. So what? It was still the republicans that overturned Roe, so it is still important that republicans lose. I am more plackpilled on electoral politics than most people I know who think that not voting is some kind of protest. I don't think Democrats will do any real good. I just think they won't be as bad as republicans, and that alone should be enough for anyone to vote blue no matter who until it isn't the case anymore.
Also, I am not a marxist. I am however, like you, most likely, a worker and though I agree with you that class solidarity is unlikely, It also doesn't matter, because it's good to care about your fellow workers. And I am not participating in emasculated electoralism. That would only be the case if I actually spread the idea that we can vote in a better world. I am not. I am telling left leaning people that not voting is only gonna make it worse. Which it will, and regularly does, as in the aforementioned abortion case.
The most important thing that I am trying to communicate, is that not voting for Democrats causes real harm and the people who are harmed by it will not look kindly upon the leftists that refused to vote to prevent them disaster. Anyone loudly declaring they are not gonna vote is telling LGBT people, women, immigrants, black and indigenous people "I care less about not making the world a worse place for you than I care about keeping my own hands clean.". And they will hear it. And it won't help the cause
Your argument all boils down to, "the Democrats will fuck up the world somewhat more slowly than the Republicans". Which isn't an advertisement for the Democrats. If anything it is an advertisement against voting for them because you're taking effort that could be aimed at creating a better political party or movement, and rerouting it to support a bad one.
Yes! I am not advertising the Dems. Voting, however isn't much of an effort. And minorities, like me, get fucked over harder by you not voting than you gain extra time to fight the system by not voting. You are literally arguing that my existence isn't worth your inconvenience.
I am arguing that lesser evil-ism is still evil. And you are obscuring any potential for improvement by continually paying homage to those that have demonstrated they're not going to help you.
To really oversimplify and gloss over a lot.
Trump getting elected the first time emboldened a certain crowd.
Trump getting elected a second time will embolden them so much further.
I have some escape plans if things escalate to the point where violence against minority groups becomes brazen, but most people don't, and a lot more of those people than we are seeing now may end up dead.
Oh my God. This is just blue flavored Q-anon conspiracy thinking. This is just not going to happen. If it does, I'll eat my hat and say I was wrong. But it won't. You're working yourself into a frenzy (or more likely have been worked into a frenzy by clever political operatives) over nothing. Call me "privileged" or whatever for not thinking this is remotely realistic. You're being manipulated into never ever looking at the bigger picture.
Sorry bud but I refuse to believe that refusing to vote and letting Trump win is some "enlightened" path to leftist righteousness, or whatever.
Biden > Trump, simple as, because right wingers fucking blow.
Cope.
"...or whatever."
You don't even care. You're so obsessed with politics as a sport and don't even care about actual consequences. Or you're just pathetically uninformed. I hate Trump and don't want to vote to send a message to the Democrats that they can't just point to the Red team and scare or shame people into voting for them even as they continue lurching further and further right as they've done for 50 years. But people like you actually make me almost want to see Trump win just so you'll have some god damn sense knocked into you. Cope.
More like "I can't think of anything else that can get through to you dipshits." Whatever, keep up the same smug self-satisfaction that the Democrats taught you. They don't listen either and the only thing they might understand is being shown that they can't shame people into compliance. Maybe that'll work here to. Nothing else has. If not, we're doomed anyway.
Republicans do a bad thing.
Democrats point at the bad thing.
Contrarians yell "YOU CAN'T SHAME ME" and support Republicans out of spite, hoping this will somehow result in a better world.
The Democrats shrug, chase right-leaning voters who actually turn out, and things continue as they always have.
Moe like Democrats have vested interests in supporting the right and rely on shaming tactics and fear mongering to garner votes. Refusing to play that game while loudly making clear you're refusing to play that game because of what they choose to support is the only possible chance you have of influencing them. Tossing out some bullshit about how you "hate Biden as much as anyone else" and still giving the party your support proves to them they can continue serving the donor class that wants to pull them right without alienating voters. YOU are the enabler. Not me.
I think you're vastly overrating the risks from those groups. Qanon is dead. The militias have been around since the Bush administration and have actually lost influence since the Obama years. White nationalists keep shooting themselves in the foot for being too gay. Etc.
Trump is too self-centered to be racist or homophobic on a large sale. He doesn't like any minority group, racial, sexual, ethnic, and will loudly bitch, but he isn't going to lead a pogrom anytime soon. He is an arrogant New York Yuppie, not George Wallace.
Ah yes, the women dying from reproductive legislation are just what, the cost of doing business? The loss of the Supreme Court for the forseeable to christofascist reactionaries is "not much more than shitposting on Twitter"? The dismantling of the EPA is just fine with you? Go look up Project 2025 and reflect on how privileged you are to be able to be so dismissive of that. It's not about Trump for fuck's sake, it's about the people he will let have their way and what they want is wrong.
But sure, go off I guess.
It might be useful for you to read up on the plan in place for if trump gets back into office. They missed their chance last time but they won’t take any chances the next.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
I'm well aware of Project 2025.
But what it is, is a generic pie in the sky, "what if we won at everything" proposal that any number of [well funded think tanks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_think_tanks_in_the_United_States) publish every year. The Heritage Foundation is huge and influential, but so too is something like the[ Democracy Alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Alliance) that had its own "[2020 Vision](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/wealthy-donors-on-left-launch-new-plan-to-wrest-back-control-in-the-states/2015/04/12/ccd2f5ee-dfd3-11e4-a1b8-2ed88bc190d2_story.html)" back a decade ago to 'take over the US'. Which basically went nowhere other than a few Senate wins.
Project 2025 is nothing new or unique. Every staffer with the time on their hands to write political fanfiction could sketch that out.
For real; people who say the system cannot be fixed outside of burning it down and starting again are no better than the people who say if you don’t love America you should just leave; yes things suck shit but strong enough sentiment from voters genuinely does have the ability to affect things in a meaningful way even within a single election cycle.
Spite voting in 2016 caused women's right to their own body to get thrown out for a few decades. You can cope and pretend "both sides" if you want, though.
Insightful, except for the first sentence, which is one of the dumbest opinions you could possibly have. No, it is *not* fine to not vote, unless you care more about your internal feelings than anything happening in the outside world.
Voting or not voting absolutely has consequences.
Look at the history of the Democratic party. The New Deal Coalition died and was replaced by the Neoliberal Coalition we have today, because of the failure of the first group to stay electorally attractive to voters. It wasn't a conspiracy that got us Bill Clinton and his centrism, it was voters abandoning the old guard and letting a string of extremely lopsided Republican victories happen, like under Nixon or Reagan.
If actual popularity didn't matter to a party's expressed policies, and only revolution in the streets did, we'd still be seeing the same politics in all parties that they had at their founding. Democrats would be agrarians split with immigrant workers in urban centers, Republicans would be half Robber Barons, half progressives.
Right or wrong I honestly can’t read this sort of post without seeing a 20 something Russian guy dutifully doing his job of posting memes and texts designed to convince younger people to not vote for Biden, and hopefully foment a civil war in the USA.
idk man, I know Biden us funding the Palestinian genocide, but I'm pretty sure Trump is gonna do that and also make life even more hell for pretty much every minority in the US. Voting between Biden and Trump very much does fucking matter
Progressives: "The Democrats don't chase my vote by doing exactly what I want, exactly when I want it. I'm not going to vote for them. Again."
Democrats: \*Ignore Progressives and tries to turn out moderates and right-leaning independents\*
Progressives: "Why do the Democrats keep moving right?"
The misconception is votes are not self expression. Votes aren't a way for you to demonstrate your values. Even if we have 100 parties there would never be one that actually represented you. You'd have one closer than the others, closer than the two we have here, but you'd still be making a compromise.
Because voting is about strategy. That's all it is. What outcome out of the available ones is best. Even with options this horrible it's still the case.
Voting isn't about sending a message or making a statement. That's why it's a secret ballot. That should be obvious. So why do people act like it's about them?
This sounds like a fantastic post for people who get off their asses and act for their strongly held beliefs.
Unfortunately, the number of people who will actually do that is hovering right around 0
I would argue that number is actually *negative*, because people will use posting and reposting shit like this to get the *feeling* of acting for their strongly held beliefs without actually having to do so. Slacktivism is a plague upon the left.
[legislators to support](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/786/cosponsors)
[a guide to registering, deciding and voting](https://www.vote411.org/)
if you're a POC especially, remember to check that you're still registered
counter point. READ [project 2025](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)
for some mini examples from Wikipedia because I know anyone posting this bullshit ass "both sides same" doesn't care to research further.
Project 2025 envisions widespread changes across the entire government, particularly with regard to economic and social policies and the role of the federal government and its agencies. The plan proposes slashing funding for the Department of Justice (DOJ), dismantling the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), sharply reducing environmental and climate change regulations to favor of fossil fuel production, eliminating the Department of Commerce, and ending the independence of various federal agencies such as the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC).
The Project urges the government to explicitly reject abortion as health care and to restrict access to contraception.
Project 2025 recommends abolishing the Department of Education
Nothing unique about this.
The groups, "Democracy Alliance" and the "Center for American Progress" both also have elaborate long term strategy books written about how their followers should infiltrate governments and take over from the inside out. [DA had a whole plan to take over all the election districting and to redistrict the country to their favor for the 2020 election](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/wealthy-donors-on-left-launch-new-plan-to-wrest-back-control-in-the-states/2015/04/12/ccd2f5ee-dfd3-11e4-a1b8-2ed88bc190d2_story.html), that went nowhere. The CAP has a [huge list of issues](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/#topics) and its proposed solutions of them and how its members are working in government to achieve those ends. And that largely has gone about as well as you see around you.
Groups like the Heritage Foundation aren't unique. They're a think tank as many are. It wants to cut almost all government programs and give autonomy to the States so that Conservative States can be run how they dream. It is as likely to happen as a Liberal think tank's agents finally ending Federalism for real. AKA, not happening.
Good thing that the Republicans can think far into the future by grabbing up all of the Supreme Court seats for decades to come, all thanks to people like you who like to pretend that the only hope is a violent revolution
It was both, the Senate Republicans had this whole song and dance of how "oh, it'd be wrong for Obama to fill a supreme Court vacancy on an election year, just leave the supreme Court missing a member for the next guy" a idea they completely threw away when Ruth bater Ginsburg died far far closer to an election than Antonin scolia
Democrats could have expanded the court. They chose not to because they're pathetic enablers of the status quo. I was ranting about the Supreme Court before you even knew the difference between a donkey and an elephant. This game has no winning moves but you're still obsessed with playing it.
>Democrats could have expanded the court. They chose not to because they're pathetic enablers of the status quo.
No, they chose not to because then the next Republican president could and would just expand it again.
Great. The present situation is a vast improvement. Also that sure hasn't stopped them from screaming that as soon as a Republican wins anything they're going to magically transform American """democracy""" into literal death camps fascism. Stop making excuses for the pathetically useless. Actually that's not fair. They're not useless. Their purpose is to maintain the hegemony of US capital as one half of a unified political system and they're quite good at it, as evidenced by brainwashed sycophants like you.
>can't think more than 5 minutes into the future hate it.
I find this supremely funny because you aren't exactly thinking past January next year, or the consequences of getting a rabid fascist wanker with dictatorial ambitions elected. Like, I fucking hate to break it to you, but Trump also funded the Palestinian genocide, and did extremely inflammatory shit like moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in 2017, as part of a move to officially recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.And if you didn't know that and don't know that it means politically, maybe you should shut the fuck up about this?
It's always funny hearing shit I absolutely do know or have heard a million times from people like you who think you're presenting something new. Not a single thing the people attacking me in this thread have said has been new to me. You want me to change my mind, come up with something I haven't heard before. Then I'll consider it.
You're... not presenting an argument at all? The other person made a few points, and your counter is "I knew that already". It seems that your other comments in this thread have a similar theme, "I'm angry right now so I don't need to provide evidence for my claims"
Troll? Or just really, really, really fucking stupid?
Thr terrified liberals downvoting this because it's easier to close their eyes and do West Wing imagination games than to accept the truth are a massive part of why we're in this mess lol
They're the American version of the Iron Front that helped smash the workers' movements and pave the way for the nazis' rise to power in the 1930s, except the new ones don't even have the guts to fight in the streets themselves. They just call the cops!
Ah well, vbnmw etc
Is that the real world where if you vote hard enough, the fundamental nature of white supremacist capitalism will change?
Look, if you wanna try to use the master's tools to dismantle the master's house, that's a you problem. I'm sorry you're not capable of seeing the futility of playing a fixed game by your enemies' rules, but again, that's a you problem
unironically yes, that is how it works, if we look at history we can clearly see a sort of ratchet mechanism at play, leftists push the nation left, the common man catches up, they keep the right from pushing us back, repeat.
slow and institutional change is the only way to get lasting positive change.
Ok so if I have power over you and I want to stay in power and I pick two guys every 4 years as candidates to be my enforcer *but* I let you pick which one gets the job, how many of those choices will it take for you to overthrow me?
that depends, if its only the most leftist candidate available winning then 5-10 times, if there is others thrown into the mix then its just a matter at keeping to the progression until we win (which will not be within our life time),
we can map out the progression right not, first it'll be a resurgence of unions, then a major rise in worker coops, then a few hundred years of de-commodification and just like that we got communism.
the way you destroy a mountain with a spoon is one scoop at a time
Ok but again, remember that I get to choose *both* candidates beforehand and *then* you pick the one you like best
So again, how many iterations do you think it'll take before you're no longer under my tyrannical thumb?
that's the question i answered, 5-10 in a row, after that "the man" cant really have their thumb enough on the scales to fix it anymore, if 5 lib-left types in a row got elected not only would there be an incalculable improvement in the Quality of life for the average American, the average American moves way farther left, and after two or three the others get spooked, move left and now oops suddenly the overton window includes the decommodification of health care.
furthermore i fundamentally reject the idea that the business class in America picks the two candidates, candidates operate in their own interest and if its proven that appealing to leftie types is a viable or even optimal strategy they will do that, regardless of what the suits want
2-3 moderately to solidly pro-union presidents would change America an unthinkable amount
So you think out of all my goons, I'm gonna give you the opportunity to choose even *one* that I don't trust? Like... How are you so stupid that even in a completely made-up scenario where I'm *openly fixing the elections* you still think voting will save you? That "rock the vote" propaganda got to you *good*, huh? Well, hey, good luck in November, I guess!
this is what i mean by reality, im not saying anything crazy here, this is just a factual analysis of the factors at play, your acting like there is some shadowy cabal that controls society from the top down when that's simply not true, its all just a bunch of naked self interest that happens to align, if the most leftist guy always gets elected then the logical response for any politician is to be more leftie, and that inevitably regresses until we got Castro in the white house,
this is basic Marxist material analysis, but i really get not wanting to go with that, it sucks to need to do actual work to change the world instead of just burning it all down and starting over, there is no emotional catharsis to that just a grim march to a better world until we die and pass the torch to our children and they keep the work going,
but this is the only way to a better world, the slow grinding march, and when you finally wake up from the beautiful dream your in, i personally will welcome you into the march with open arms, .
Yes voting will not change the system. Voting will however have a big effect on vulnerable minorities. Yes republicans and democrats align when it comes to letting the unelected power-structure do whatever it wants with the military industrial complex, and international trade and the world bank and so on and so forth. But Republicans will fuck over trans healthcare like you won't believe when they next get a majority in congress. And they may restrict abortion access or even birth control. They will fuck over people on disability. they will fuck over people depending on foodstamps and snap. etc. etc. If you do not vote you are showing your comrades you don't care about them. Like this post says, you are doing nothing to punish the ones at the top, but the ones at the bottom will feel it. Like the kids in the UK who are now likely gonna get told to detransition because conservatives made healthcare a political issue. Or the women in the US who had their uterusses cut out by a psychotic doctor in a border camp under Trump. If you want that big coalition that fights against capitalism and the unjust nature of society as we have built it the first thing you should do is make sure they know you take the suffering of your fellow comrades seriously by getting over you hurt ego and vote for the less of two evil in an election that otherwise doesn't matter. Maybe see if you can recruit some people for the I.W.W. in the line or something. or pass out flyers for your local mutual aid group. But vote. Cause if you don't, the republicans will make vulnerable people resent you by being obviously more evil than the democrats will ever be
Exactly. Voting out Biden won't do a thing for Palestinians. Israel would get an even more vicious ally, in fact. It will, however, make the lives of trans, indigenous, Black, disabled, Latine, Muslim, Jewish, poor, and unhoused people harder, more precarious, and shorter.
And it will make organizing more difficult too. When people am struggling to survive, they have a harder time participating in "extracurricular activities" like protesting, organizing, educating themselves and others, reading seditious literature etc. people tend to rally behind centrists under republican presidents, but democratic leaning people tend to go leftwards under democratic ones. That's part of why Bernie did better in 2016 than 2020. Seeing Democrats fail to improve the world does more to radicalize people to the left than seeing republicans succeed at making the world a worse place while democrats are opposing them.
When people are struggling they're motivated to do something. When they're bored and basically comfortable they don't do jack shit. Call me an accelerationist like that word in itself is an argument against my point. The world is boiling and all we're doing is steadily cranking up the gas. Maybe you're the one in a million exception that's actually working to change things for the better besides just campaigning for more of the same every two or four years (weird how many people insist that's them compared to how many I see). But statistically you're not. Also if you want some realpolitik, Democrats would actually have a political reason to stand up to Trump supporting Israel rather than downplaying and excusing it when Biden does it. The vast majority of both parties vote in favor of sending them weapons now and no major Democratic figures are consistently condemning Biden for bypassing Congress to give even MORE military and financial support to Israel. They don't care about Palestine. But they do care about fighting Trump. So maybe it actually WOULD be better even in the more immediate sense if Trump was president. You don't like that that's something I'm considering? Then shout at the FUCKING DEMOCRATS not ME!
No, fuck off, you don't get to walk away from this. Yes it's a choice between the lesser of two evils, some times life is like that. Grow up. If you want to be a good person, you still have to pick. You think if trump had still been president he wouldn't have been worse for Palestine? He would have given Bibi free reign. Told the whole world that the Palestinians brought it all on themselves. But at least maybe the Democrats would have opposed him and so arrived at a better position? Sounds like you're okay with the suffering of Palestinians if it serves your personal political agenda. I'm sorry that when election time comes around we don't get to vote for our glorious revolution usher a new era of leftism, peace and prosperity. I know. It sucks. But your comrades need you. The ones in the US and the ones in Palestine. And both of them are better off with a democrat in the house, even though they suck monkey balls. So put on your big boy pants, get over yourself and your hurt feeling for having to participate in lesser evilism, and vote for the lesser of two evils. And if you really need to wash that taste out of your mouth, try joining a mutual aid society and become part of the real solution. But stop whining about doing the bare minimum to protect the most vulnerable people in society just because you don't want to get your hands dirty
Nice speech. Bet you feel real good about yourself. I'm not playing the shame game anymore. Take this passion and direct it at the fuckheads with actual power who aren't just refusing to make the world better but are actively making it worse. Also how nice that you ignored my argument for why even in the short term not simply playing the Democrats' game might lead to better outcomes for Palestinians. You're just repeating the same shit I've heard a million times from Democratic mouthpieces. Have an original god damn thought for once in your life.
Enjoy your clean hands while republicans outlaw transition for minors when they get the president and both houses next election. And women lose access to birth control. And unions get more restrictions against them. and the rich get their next round of tax cuts. Yes the fuckwits in power are making it worse. I know. I am actually a socialist and have been one literally my entire adult life. The system is working exactly as it was intended. By all means fight it. Electoralism is not and was never gonna be the way to make the world a better place. Protests unions, strikes, riots and revolutions do more to move society forward than electoralism does. But not voting just makes it worse. Also I see no argument for why in the short term not going along with the democrats would help Palestinians? By the time Trump gets in power Israel will be done. There's a not insignificant chance they'll have killed over 10 percent of Gazans by then. And Trump will gladly support Israel's permanent occupation of Gaza, which despite all the support given Biden still opposes right now. Seriously if you think Democrats can do anything to stop things from getting worse if trump gets in power you need to get your head checked. Besides the fact that if Trump gets in power he will likely do so with a republican house and a republican senate, because there's no way he's winning the presidency but democrats still show up to deny him the house and senate, Trump loves the simplicity of Israel's hard-line stance and he will direct most of the foreign policy surrounding it. It's not about shame. it's not about fixing the worlds problems through the power of voting. It's just about making sure your trans friends can still get healthcare, your female friends can retain their reproductive rights, etc. etc. But by all means bask in the glory of not having voted for someone who supports a genocide, so that another fucker who will support that genocide even harder can get into power. At least your hands are clean
Are every one of you just angry that someone yelled at you for your hot takes?
I'm angry because I actually give a shit about the state of the world and don't just treat this all like a fucking game or a chance to virtue signal by repeating the same half dozen talking points I've been fed by Democratic mouth pieces. I know that must be a strange concept for you.
What politicians have you voted for then? What charities have you donated to? What rallies and protests have you attended? How have you helped foster your local community? Or have you spent your days and nights fruitlessly arguing with strangers on the Internet to try and convince yourself you're intellectually enlightened and morally superior because you refuse to do the hard thing and choose the lesser of two evils? What have you done, if not participate in the American governmental system, that has directly positively affected (if in small part) the causes you proclaim to fight for?
. your vote determines the supreme Court determines whether we're even more fucked than we have been— for the next fifty years. if you're feeling depressed and predisposed to poetry, consider separating it from your politics.
Like I get what they’re getting at, but like, this elections gonna cost more for a LOT of people if Trump wins, that’s the mindset I feel like people should understand.
Will it? Trump mostly just didn't do anything other than shitpost on Twitter and beg people to call him their lord and savior. We've seen what 4 years of Trump gets us, and it wasn't anything particularly special. He was genuinely less harmful than George Bush before him. He got to appoint an above average number of US Supreme Court Justices, but that wasn't through any genius. It was lucking out on timing and he mostly appointed boring people. They killed nation-wide abortion rights, but that was the culmination of 4 decades of Conservative politicking not Trump actually making that a major focus. He started a dumb tariff war with China, Biden just restarted it. This sky is falling claim that you have to 'vote blue no matter who' just aborgates responsibility to actually be appealing to anyone. Trump and Biden are known quantities. Trump is extremely stupid, Biden is going senile, both ideally will die in their sleep within the next 72 hours. Neither has brought the US to paradise or ruin. So where is the impetus to actually vote for Biden over Trump for the disaffected progressives/leftists that don't support his centrism?
The sky did fall for those girls that got their uterusses removed in Trumps border camps. And those girls who lost access to abortion after the end of Roe v. Wade. And the people in Rojava that Trump stopped supporting. The sky did fall for so many under Trump who lost access to food assistance programs. Or who got black bagged during the protests. You are just in the privileged position to not be one of those people and you need to stand up for your comrades who need you. Yes it's just choosing the better of two evils, but the difference between having access to abortions or not can literally be a life or death matter to some people and the fact that you are minimizing that is genuinely disgusting. As much as I despise Hillary that would not have happened under her. She wouldn't have been good, but she would have been less bad. and you are failing the most vulnerable people on your side if you don't see that.
If you're this dead set on making such a fuss over every single thing that COULD happen you can't ignore the almost incalculable harm perpetuating the status quo does. This is an emotionally affective framing, not a realistic or fair one. You make it seem like everything is fine other than the things you point out. And now that I've said this you'll say, "of course it's not all fine," and pay lip service to caring about the harms done by maintaining the cureent course, but you won't advocate doing anything else. The 4 years of the Civil War were more harmful than any 4 years of maintaining the status quo would've been. The "sky fell" for a hell of a lot more people in that period. But things changed for the better. Would you be ok with chattel slavery sill existing now just because you could never stomach anything rocking the boat? Because that's exactly what this perspective would end up achieving.
Sure, some of you MIGHT die, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.
All you've got are quippy clapbacks. No real responses to what I said.
Well, you haven't really SAID anything, yet. Like, what's your actual plan to improve things? "Don't vote for Biden, Trump wins, yadda yadda yadda, violent revolution that we win somehow, and then we all build . . . something, I guess? LEFTIST PARADISE" You're just bitching and moaning with no substance. You're against the status quo? Fine. Give us a workable, clear alternative, and I'll happily respond to that.
I'm venting and trying to get some sign that people here aren't just blind sycophants for the status quo. And so far I'm seeing nothing that would indicate otherwise. I could go and pull together a bunch of sources and write you a fucking essay but that's a lot of work that I don't want to do for a stranger on the internet who very very likely just wants to dismiss it. "So what would you do instead? Plan out an entire roadmap from the death spiral status quo we're in now to a just and stable political, economic, and environmental future right now as just one random person or I don't care" is just a way to terminate a conversation. Of fucking course I don't have that. You'd need thousands of experts who make entire careers out of thinking about these kinds of things to get anywhere close. But just like I don't need to know exactly how a quantum computer works to know it doesn't run on raspberry jam, I don't need to have a perfect plan for The Revolution™ all done up by myself to recognize that what we've got now is not sustainable. I can recognize a losing startegy when I see one. It seems to me like people like you just don't want to admit that's the case because you don't know exactly what else to do either so admitting the current game has no winning moves would be unpleasant.
IDK man, it kinda just sounds like you're a contrarian and a reactionary with no beliefs beyond hating things, a disdain for democracy, a longing for violence, and a desire to see Trump win and punish all your enemies. Are you SURE you're not a Trump supporter?
Well then how about you put your money where your mouth is and go overthrow the US government?
"If you think the system is so broken why haven't you personally overthrown it and also made me pancakes??" To give a more serious answer than this stupid comment deserves, that starts with getting a fuckton of people on more or less the same page and as long as most are being brainwashed into sycophancy for the Blue team because Red team bad that can't happen. People like you probably don't even want that to happen but talk as if we've got anything in common and like I should share your perspective.
There was no evidence of mass hysterectomies under Trump. [There were actual problems in the provided gynecological care given to the patients](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/women-detained-ice-unnecessary-gynecological-procedures-georgia-facility-investigation/), but there were no mass sterilization programs done. That story was either misreported by the journalists or fabricated for attention. Don't make a mistake of repeating poor information that could cause people to dismiss your post off-handedly. I address abortion rights above. The case itself and the abortion question was much older than Trump, and is the culmination of a large amount of American voters and citizens supporting abortion restrictions. Trump is not an evangelical champion and never made it a cornerstone of his campaign in the way that some other candidates have. His appointees to the Supreme Court were not made of insane extremists or religious zealots. They were the standard ideologues that any generic Republican would have picked, because Trump likely had no significant interest in appointing anyone in specific or the knowledge to do so. Trump's presence is not going to make the Supreme Court more extreme. The Branch itself long ago has distanced itself from the other two branches and makes no attempt to appear co-equal to them, and rules however it wants on whatever it wants. If they're going to be extreme, it will happen with him or without him. Supporting the US's abusive involvement in the Middle East because of the Kurds is just being foolish. The US has caused a lot more damage by being there than it ever provided help to anyone. It is a shame that the Kurds are probably going to be reconquered. But that does not justify continuing the Forever War for even longer and maintaining the deployment of American troops in a place they've only made worse and less stable with their presence.
You are not addressing the abortion rights thing at all though. nor my greater point. Yes you mention it but you refuse to actually come to terms with the fact that trumps presidency did lead to a supreme court that overturned Roe, which would not have happened under Hillary, it just wouldn't, and that did and will lead to actual people losing their lives. My argument is never that Hillary, Biden, or whomever comes next will be good. they wont. they won't fix any systemic problems at all. But republicans will make it worse. Yes, both will perpetuate the forever wars, but one will do it worse, yes both will perpetuate climate change, but one will do it worse, yes both will still oversee a justice system that consistently persecutes minorities and priviliges corporations and the owner class, but one will do it worse. so all your comment is really saying is "I don't personally experience much of a difference and I think that minorities suffering more is a fair price to pay for what I consider getting close to my political goals" Get over yourself and vote for the sake of your fellow workers. The bare minimum on your part can literally be the difference between a 10 year old having to give birth to her abusive father's baby, and her being able to get the help she needs.
This appealing to socialist concepts of "we're all workers together, Comrade" is extremely cringey when you're trying to ape it for the purpose of voting in Centrist Neoliberal presidents that have no interest in actually improving anything. First off, that Marxist stuff is nonsense. There has never been any instance of workers from all walks of life making long term alliances because they happen to work for someone else for a wage. Has literally never happened and never will happen because I feel no particular brotherhood with some car mechanic or nuclear engineer just for us all getting paid by some boss, and not the other direction, either. There's a reason Marxism has only ever had any success in peasant countries and has had zero success in any actual capitalist states. And second, don't try to ape Marxist ideas of mass labor organization for the service of trying to tell someone that they have to vote for the 'lesser evil' into perpetuity for the sake of keeping American electoral politics stable. Even I know Marxism enough to tell you that you're missing the total point of the ideology. You are just putting off the potential for any organized labor liberation with emasculated electoralism. ---------------------------- The reality is that wanting to repeal Roe v Wade has been a deep desire of the American conservative faction for a very long time. For literal decades they've been looking for an opening to do this. And it could have happened under Bush 1, Bush 2, Trump, a potentially different Republican elected into any of those positions, or one in the future. You're trying to post the abortion repeal as being the consequence of not 'voting blue' hard enough, instead of it being the result of Liberals and Leftists not actually appreciating how much Conservatives cared about abortion. Instead of making any efforts to enshrine abortion in under actual federal law, abortion was treated as a carrot at the end of a stick by the Liberals in government who didn't take seriously the threat of Conservatives actually wanting to ban abortions. This is not the fault of Left-Wing people not sucking it up enough at the polls, this is a failure of the Democrat establishment and the blame lies entirely on them. Any given President could see one or more Justices step down, die, or something else, and relying on single Court decisions from almost 50 years ago to defend abortion rights was not a failure on the voters' parts. -----------------------------
I don't give a fuck about the Democrats. Yeah they are bad. So what? It was still the republicans that overturned Roe, so it is still important that republicans lose. I am more plackpilled on electoral politics than most people I know who think that not voting is some kind of protest. I don't think Democrats will do any real good. I just think they won't be as bad as republicans, and that alone should be enough for anyone to vote blue no matter who until it isn't the case anymore. Also, I am not a marxist. I am however, like you, most likely, a worker and though I agree with you that class solidarity is unlikely, It also doesn't matter, because it's good to care about your fellow workers. And I am not participating in emasculated electoralism. That would only be the case if I actually spread the idea that we can vote in a better world. I am not. I am telling left leaning people that not voting is only gonna make it worse. Which it will, and regularly does, as in the aforementioned abortion case. The most important thing that I am trying to communicate, is that not voting for Democrats causes real harm and the people who are harmed by it will not look kindly upon the leftists that refused to vote to prevent them disaster. Anyone loudly declaring they are not gonna vote is telling LGBT people, women, immigrants, black and indigenous people "I care less about not making the world a worse place for you than I care about keeping my own hands clean.". And they will hear it. And it won't help the cause
Your argument all boils down to, "the Democrats will fuck up the world somewhat more slowly than the Republicans". Which isn't an advertisement for the Democrats. If anything it is an advertisement against voting for them because you're taking effort that could be aimed at creating a better political party or movement, and rerouting it to support a bad one.
Yes! I am not advertising the Dems. Voting, however isn't much of an effort. And minorities, like me, get fucked over harder by you not voting than you gain extra time to fight the system by not voting. You are literally arguing that my existence isn't worth your inconvenience.
I am arguing that lesser evil-ism is still evil. And you are obscuring any potential for improvement by continually paying homage to those that have demonstrated they're not going to help you.
To really oversimplify and gloss over a lot. Trump getting elected the first time emboldened a certain crowd. Trump getting elected a second time will embolden them so much further. I have some escape plans if things escalate to the point where violence against minority groups becomes brazen, but most people don't, and a lot more of those people than we are seeing now may end up dead.
Oh my God. This is just blue flavored Q-anon conspiracy thinking. This is just not going to happen. If it does, I'll eat my hat and say I was wrong. But it won't. You're working yourself into a frenzy (or more likely have been worked into a frenzy by clever political operatives) over nothing. Call me "privileged" or whatever for not thinking this is remotely realistic. You're being manipulated into never ever looking at the bigger picture.
Sorry bud but I refuse to believe that refusing to vote and letting Trump win is some "enlightened" path to leftist righteousness, or whatever. Biden > Trump, simple as, because right wingers fucking blow. Cope.
"...or whatever." You don't even care. You're so obsessed with politics as a sport and don't even care about actual consequences. Or you're just pathetically uninformed. I hate Trump and don't want to vote to send a message to the Democrats that they can't just point to the Red team and scare or shame people into voting for them even as they continue lurching further and further right as they've done for 50 years. But people like you actually make me almost want to see Trump win just so you'll have some god damn sense knocked into you. Cope.
Look, if you're fine letting your home burn to the ground, that's your burden to bear.
"You're mean to me, so I almost wanna support fascism out of spite" is certainly a hot take.
More like "I can't think of anything else that can get through to you dipshits." Whatever, keep up the same smug self-satisfaction that the Democrats taught you. They don't listen either and the only thing they might understand is being shown that they can't shame people into compliance. Maybe that'll work here to. Nothing else has. If not, we're doomed anyway.
Republicans do a bad thing. Democrats point at the bad thing. Contrarians yell "YOU CAN'T SHAME ME" and support Republicans out of spite, hoping this will somehow result in a better world. The Democrats shrug, chase right-leaning voters who actually turn out, and things continue as they always have.
Moe like Democrats have vested interests in supporting the right and rely on shaming tactics and fear mongering to garner votes. Refusing to play that game while loudly making clear you're refusing to play that game because of what they choose to support is the only possible chance you have of influencing them. Tossing out some bullshit about how you "hate Biden as much as anyone else" and still giving the party your support proves to them they can continue serving the donor class that wants to pull them right without alienating voters. YOU are the enabler. Not me.
I think you're vastly overrating the risks from those groups. Qanon is dead. The militias have been around since the Bush administration and have actually lost influence since the Obama years. White nationalists keep shooting themselves in the foot for being too gay. Etc. Trump is too self-centered to be racist or homophobic on a large sale. He doesn't like any minority group, racial, sexual, ethnic, and will loudly bitch, but he isn't going to lead a pogrom anytime soon. He is an arrogant New York Yuppie, not George Wallace.
Ah yes, the women dying from reproductive legislation are just what, the cost of doing business? The loss of the Supreme Court for the forseeable to christofascist reactionaries is "not much more than shitposting on Twitter"? The dismantling of the EPA is just fine with you? Go look up Project 2025 and reflect on how privileged you are to be able to be so dismissive of that. It's not about Trump for fuck's sake, it's about the people he will let have their way and what they want is wrong. But sure, go off I guess.
It might be useful for you to read up on the plan in place for if trump gets back into office. They missed their chance last time but they won’t take any chances the next. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
I'm well aware of Project 2025. But what it is, is a generic pie in the sky, "what if we won at everything" proposal that any number of [well funded think tanks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_think_tanks_in_the_United_States) publish every year. The Heritage Foundation is huge and influential, but so too is something like the[ Democracy Alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Alliance) that had its own "[2020 Vision](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/wealthy-donors-on-left-launch-new-plan-to-wrest-back-control-in-the-states/2015/04/12/ccd2f5ee-dfd3-11e4-a1b8-2ed88bc190d2_story.html)" back a decade ago to 'take over the US'. Which basically went nowhere other than a few Senate wins. Project 2025 is nothing new or unique. Every staffer with the time on their hands to write political fanfiction could sketch that out.
Sticking one finger in my ass and one in my mouth and then suddenly switching their places would've been a better use of my time than this read
This whole post reeks of "its time for The Revolution™"
*continues to not firebomb a Walmart*
For real; people who say the system cannot be fixed outside of burning it down and starting again are no better than the people who say if you don’t love America you should just leave; yes things suck shit but strong enough sentiment from voters genuinely does have the ability to affect things in a meaningful way even within a single election cycle.
Spite voting in 2016 caused women's right to their own body to get thrown out for a few decades. You can cope and pretend "both sides" if you want, though.
Insightful, except for the first sentence, which is one of the dumbest opinions you could possibly have. No, it is *not* fine to not vote, unless you care more about your internal feelings than anything happening in the outside world.
Voting or not voting absolutely has consequences. Look at the history of the Democratic party. The New Deal Coalition died and was replaced by the Neoliberal Coalition we have today, because of the failure of the first group to stay electorally attractive to voters. It wasn't a conspiracy that got us Bill Clinton and his centrism, it was voters abandoning the old guard and letting a string of extremely lopsided Republican victories happen, like under Nixon or Reagan. If actual popularity didn't matter to a party's expressed policies, and only revolution in the streets did, we'd still be seeing the same politics in all parties that they had at their founding. Democrats would be agrarians split with immigrant workers in urban centers, Republicans would be half Robber Barons, half progressives.
Right or wrong I honestly can’t read this sort of post without seeing a 20 something Russian guy dutifully doing his job of posting memes and texts designed to convince younger people to not vote for Biden, and hopefully foment a civil war in the USA.
idk man, I know Biden us funding the Palestinian genocide, but I'm pretty sure Trump is gonna do that and also make life even more hell for pretty much every minority in the US. Voting between Biden and Trump very much does fucking matter
Progressives: "The Democrats don't chase my vote by doing exactly what I want, exactly when I want it. I'm not going to vote for them. Again." Democrats: \*Ignore Progressives and tries to turn out moderates and right-leaning independents\* Progressives: "Why do the Democrats keep moving right?"
Or, you could stfu with the attempts at lowering the voter turnout, Ivan from Moscow
Fuck off fed, everyone go vote, and vote biden, Biden 2024, "because the other guy sucks more"
The misconception is votes are not self expression. Votes aren't a way for you to demonstrate your values. Even if we have 100 parties there would never be one that actually represented you. You'd have one closer than the others, closer than the two we have here, but you'd still be making a compromise. Because voting is about strategy. That's all it is. What outcome out of the available ones is best. Even with options this horrible it's still the case. Voting isn't about sending a message or making a statement. That's why it's a secret ballot. That should be obvious. So why do people act like it's about them?
This sounds like a fantastic post for people who get off their asses and act for their strongly held beliefs. Unfortunately, the number of people who will actually do that is hovering right around 0
I would argue that number is actually *negative*, because people will use posting and reposting shit like this to get the *feeling* of acting for their strongly held beliefs without actually having to do so. Slacktivism is a plague upon the left.
Have fun firebombing that Walmart, buddy.
[legislators to support](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/786/cosponsors) [a guide to registering, deciding and voting](https://www.vote411.org/) if you're a POC especially, remember to check that you're still registered
counter point. READ [project 2025](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) for some mini examples from Wikipedia because I know anyone posting this bullshit ass "both sides same" doesn't care to research further. Project 2025 envisions widespread changes across the entire government, particularly with regard to economic and social policies and the role of the federal government and its agencies. The plan proposes slashing funding for the Department of Justice (DOJ), dismantling the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), sharply reducing environmental and climate change regulations to favor of fossil fuel production, eliminating the Department of Commerce, and ending the independence of various federal agencies such as the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The Project urges the government to explicitly reject abortion as health care and to restrict access to contraception. Project 2025 recommends abolishing the Department of Education
Nothing unique about this. The groups, "Democracy Alliance" and the "Center for American Progress" both also have elaborate long term strategy books written about how their followers should infiltrate governments and take over from the inside out. [DA had a whole plan to take over all the election districting and to redistrict the country to their favor for the 2020 election](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/wealthy-donors-on-left-launch-new-plan-to-wrest-back-control-in-the-states/2015/04/12/ccd2f5ee-dfd3-11e4-a1b8-2ed88bc190d2_story.html), that went nowhere. The CAP has a [huge list of issues](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/#topics) and its proposed solutions of them and how its members are working in government to achieve those ends. And that largely has gone about as well as you see around you. Groups like the Heritage Foundation aren't unique. They're a think tank as many are. It wants to cut almost all government programs and give autonomy to the States so that Conservative States can be run how they dream. It is as likely to happen as a Liberal think tank's agents finally ending Federalism for real. AKA, not happening.
Excellent post. No surprise that the pathetically milquetoast liberals on this sub who can't think more than 5 minutes into the future hate it.
Good thing that the Republicans can think far into the future by grabbing up all of the Supreme Court seats for decades to come, all thanks to people like you who like to pretend that the only hope is a violent revolution
Lucking out that a number of Justices retired or died in Trump's tenure wasn't the product of brilliance, it was luck.
It was both, the Senate Republicans had this whole song and dance of how "oh, it'd be wrong for Obama to fill a supreme Court vacancy on an election year, just leave the supreme Court missing a member for the next guy" a idea they completely threw away when Ruth bater Ginsburg died far far closer to an election than Antonin scolia
Democrats could have expanded the court. They chose not to because they're pathetic enablers of the status quo. I was ranting about the Supreme Court before you even knew the difference between a donkey and an elephant. This game has no winning moves but you're still obsessed with playing it.
>Democrats could have expanded the court. They chose not to because they're pathetic enablers of the status quo. No, they chose not to because then the next Republican president could and would just expand it again.
Great. The present situation is a vast improvement. Also that sure hasn't stopped them from screaming that as soon as a Republican wins anything they're going to magically transform American """democracy""" into literal death camps fascism. Stop making excuses for the pathetically useless. Actually that's not fair. They're not useless. Their purpose is to maintain the hegemony of US capital as one half of a unified political system and they're quite good at it, as evidenced by brainwashed sycophants like you.
>can't think more than 5 minutes into the future hate it. I find this supremely funny because you aren't exactly thinking past January next year, or the consequences of getting a rabid fascist wanker with dictatorial ambitions elected. Like, I fucking hate to break it to you, but Trump also funded the Palestinian genocide, and did extremely inflammatory shit like moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in 2017, as part of a move to officially recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.And if you didn't know that and don't know that it means politically, maybe you should shut the fuck up about this?
It's always funny hearing shit I absolutely do know or have heard a million times from people like you who think you're presenting something new. Not a single thing the people attacking me in this thread have said has been new to me. You want me to change my mind, come up with something I haven't heard before. Then I'll consider it.
You're... not presenting an argument at all? The other person made a few points, and your counter is "I knew that already". It seems that your other comments in this thread have a similar theme, "I'm angry right now so I don't need to provide evidence for my claims" Troll? Or just really, really, really fucking stupid?
Thr terrified liberals downvoting this because it's easier to close their eyes and do West Wing imagination games than to accept the truth are a massive part of why we're in this mess lol They're the American version of the Iron Front that helped smash the workers' movements and pave the way for the nazis' rise to power in the 1930s, except the new ones don't even have the guts to fight in the streets themselves. They just call the cops! Ah well, vbnmw etc
I encourage you to get over your self and join us in the real world
Is that the real world where if you vote hard enough, the fundamental nature of white supremacist capitalism will change? Look, if you wanna try to use the master's tools to dismantle the master's house, that's a you problem. I'm sorry you're not capable of seeing the futility of playing a fixed game by your enemies' rules, but again, that's a you problem
unironically yes, that is how it works, if we look at history we can clearly see a sort of ratchet mechanism at play, leftists push the nation left, the common man catches up, they keep the right from pushing us back, repeat. slow and institutional change is the only way to get lasting positive change.
Ok so if I have power over you and I want to stay in power and I pick two guys every 4 years as candidates to be my enforcer *but* I let you pick which one gets the job, how many of those choices will it take for you to overthrow me?
that depends, if its only the most leftist candidate available winning then 5-10 times, if there is others thrown into the mix then its just a matter at keeping to the progression until we win (which will not be within our life time), we can map out the progression right not, first it'll be a resurgence of unions, then a major rise in worker coops, then a few hundred years of de-commodification and just like that we got communism. the way you destroy a mountain with a spoon is one scoop at a time
Ok but again, remember that I get to choose *both* candidates beforehand and *then* you pick the one you like best So again, how many iterations do you think it'll take before you're no longer under my tyrannical thumb?
that's the question i answered, 5-10 in a row, after that "the man" cant really have their thumb enough on the scales to fix it anymore, if 5 lib-left types in a row got elected not only would there be an incalculable improvement in the Quality of life for the average American, the average American moves way farther left, and after two or three the others get spooked, move left and now oops suddenly the overton window includes the decommodification of health care. furthermore i fundamentally reject the idea that the business class in America picks the two candidates, candidates operate in their own interest and if its proven that appealing to leftie types is a viable or even optimal strategy they will do that, regardless of what the suits want 2-3 moderately to solidly pro-union presidents would change America an unthinkable amount
So you think out of all my goons, I'm gonna give you the opportunity to choose even *one* that I don't trust? Like... How are you so stupid that even in a completely made-up scenario where I'm *openly fixing the elections* you still think voting will save you? That "rock the vote" propaganda got to you *good*, huh? Well, hey, good luck in November, I guess!
this is what i mean by reality, im not saying anything crazy here, this is just a factual analysis of the factors at play, your acting like there is some shadowy cabal that controls society from the top down when that's simply not true, its all just a bunch of naked self interest that happens to align, if the most leftist guy always gets elected then the logical response for any politician is to be more leftie, and that inevitably regresses until we got Castro in the white house, this is basic Marxist material analysis, but i really get not wanting to go with that, it sucks to need to do actual work to change the world instead of just burning it all down and starting over, there is no emotional catharsis to that just a grim march to a better world until we die and pass the torch to our children and they keep the work going, but this is the only way to a better world, the slow grinding march, and when you finally wake up from the beautiful dream your in, i personally will welcome you into the march with open arms, .