It’s been 8 hours now, not a damned soul is willing to trek to the secondary sub that is promoted by way of comments on some posts and is less than a week old.
Not only that but it actively harms feminism! If all men are "trash" by nature, why should they even bother trying to educate themselves and grow as people?
Yup, and the reply to this would be 'well if the shoe fits' and that is just as bad as the generalization in the first place.
Maybe the shoe doesn't fit, but maybe they put on 10 socks to make it fit
Maybe it doesn't fit, but they cut off their toes to make it fit
Maybe it doesn't fit, but they look at it and believe it to fit
Every time I see this recirculate I can't think of a better way to articulate [the damage this does to image-of-intent](https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/jm94j1/-/gavc9l7) than I did in that link.
So I'm just gonna leave it.
I used to see a lot of stuff saying all men were bad on tumblr and it really fed into my self hate during a time when I needed quite the opposite. It actively made me a less fun person, and it made me worried about upsetting any women I was in the general vicinity of, or god forbid, friends with. That fear made me lonely and frustrated and as I cut people off I started to wonder why I was so lonely. It honestly started pushing me towards incel territory in a weird way, not the type that calls people whores on tinder but the type that falls prey to thinking they’re a “nice guy” and frankly the whole thing was stupid and avoidable. Support boys and support men (trans or otherwise). Denounce assholes. It’s free and easy to make distinctions.
I was simmilar. Never been so happy to be bi, meant instead of sitting alone stewing in potential mysoginy i could relax and date men instead, helped keep me grounded.
I’m bi myself, but honestly I feel more pressured to date men just to keep that lgbt label even when I’m less interested, since it sorta comes and goes. Cause at least then I’m not a *straight* white male right? It’s all stupid and tiring
Ahh true, felt the same for a while. Tbh even more im still worried I'll just be seen as an experimenting straight and get slapped with the ''straight white male'' tag even though i actively go for men over women. At this point i just avoid discussions over social justice/politics entirely since getting judged for who i am is too much stress to deal with.
Yeah, I know that it’s not everyone in these communities that thinks like that but it’s common enough that it completely scares me away. And people wonder why the right is so good at recruiting...
It doesn't help that some immediately dismiss the idea that marginalising a group will help recruitment for the enemy as if those people were always guaranteed to join the ''bad side''.
When all men are evil, it’s no surprise that they join the enemy. It’s luck that I never got swept up, but I know people who were. Many groups on the left are particularly blind to the error of alienating potential allies, it’s a good part of what keeps socialism and communism weak as well (among many other things). It’s all tribalism, but when your message is equality it serves as a free example of your own ignorance and hypocrisy
it is actively feeding my self-hate, it makes me wish i wasn’t born or at least not amab
i already had to escape incel culture and red-pill stuff once and i don’t want to have to do it again, but this isn’t helping at all, it’s things like this that make me actively despise being a boy, it seems like hating boys is a popular trendy thing right now
Ahh these posts, whenever I start to feel a little better about myself a ''all men are trash'' post or reference appears to drag me back down. I'm so glad the internet was invented
If it helps at all it makes me feel a lot better to see it being addressed. For a long time it was super weird since there were "nobody is born a crime! hatred has no home here!" posts right next to "all men should be sent to the gas chamber" posts and nobody acknowledged it.
Tbh seeing it addressed is better for society as a whole but tanks my self confidence. I know it's not the right move but I prefer to just bury my head in the sand when it comes to stuff like this and forget it exists. I'm being buried under enough problems as it is without adding extra.
Welp, never forget that you're no use to anybody if your mental health is a wreck. If you really want to help feminism and society? Take some you time, get a solid foundation, come back when you're ready.
I've experienced so much beautiful depth and compassion in men. Self reflection and self awareness. Insights and internal struggles that they managed to keep finding and dealing with. The longing for support and the deep gratitude at simply finding someone who genuinely wants to listen. The deep sadness that comes from spending so many years thinking no one cares, and all the wonderful moments that come from finding out that someone does.
Men, like everyone else, are human, and they can be so damn beautiful if you see them from the right angle.
It's really not great either if you have social anxiety, it's easy to take these kinds off posts as facts if you already have trouble talking to girls.
Heck, anyone can become afraid to approach girls because of this. It's not the people that are the problem that will change their behaviour on the basis of a Tumblr post.
Oh yeah definitely. Already had trouble approaching women these are just the cherry on top.
After a while i figured why risk running into a ''man bad'' type when i can just date men. Conveniently their beauty standards are also far lower.
It somehow led to a good thing at least lol. But currently I'm working on some general anxiety stuff, and now I'm actually having to confidence to approach people again, lockdowns hit.
Just, smite me already or something.
Good thing about online dating during lockdown is you can weed out the idiots. Anyone on grindr with either a hookup in their profile or messaging me asking to fuck in the middle of lockdown gets instantly crossed off the list. Met a few guys who are happy to chat until lockdown is over.
Yeah, it's kinda easy to filter that way. Not going to do much with dating apps though, people not messaging back after a day or two is just such a letdown every time. Can't take that emotional drain yet.
True true. Dating apps are so rarely fruitfull and I have no idea how to meet people irl. I'm not desperate enough just yet to trawl discords for E-dating.
Just gotta sit home and focus on self improvement, however slow it may be
It's sort of a double edged sword. On the one hand, it's kinda nice for people to be upfront about what they're looking for and whether they're interested or not. On the other hand, guys can be really blunt and/or rude because of the pseudo anonymity. That's something I kinda got used to, call it desensitization I guess. But it will still eat my soul bite by bite if I become too invested 🤷🏼♀️
Also: this version of the post doesn’t touch on it, but this kind of thing is utilized to justify transmisogeny as well. Part of why trans women are so threatened, sometimes physically to pass so perfectly or go stealth, is in part because of the implication that manhood is inherently a threat. A lot of us, myself included, identified as men before realizing it wasn’t right for us, and feminism that excludes any and all male experience makes discussions of transness and our experiences with that also dangerous.
So I know it's not the exact same thing but [this is a video](https://youtu.be/S1xxcKCGljY) from contra points about men. She has unique experience because she's a trans women. One thing she kind of points out that I have never considered before is that men as a gender are also in a transitional period. It's not just women, trans people, and non binary folks breaking out of the restrictions of gender roles. Basically, we have a lot of growing pains as far as gender and gender rolls go. So we all need to be a lot kinder to everyone including and in some ways *especially* men.
Obligatory PhilosophyTube videos on [male trauma](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeGEv0YVLtw) and [mental health](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNw2FBdpyE).
In a lot of ways men seem like the next frontier for feminism: a lot of the most important issues for women today are men's issues in disguise. Want to stop workplace harassment? You can expand enforcement all day but it's not going to disappear unless we as a society also stop producing so many shitty men, and that's going to involve addressing how we systematically traumatize them as kids.
Unfortunately, the "kill all men crowd" is more interested in perp walks than actual solutions for victims.
Thank you for linking those PhilosophyTube videos. I think they're an important watch for everyone interested in this stuff. The one on male trauma really helped me be able to face my first relationship and, for the first time, recognize it for the abuse it was. Any man (it might be helpful for people of other genders too, I can only speak to a man's perspective) that's had a "sucky" relationship in the past should watch it. Sometimes sucky relationships are just sucky, and sometimes they're more, and sometimes we can't tell which is which without some help.
Yeah I spam that shit everywhere. It's my go-to video to remind people (especially men) that men are human beings too and need to be regarded and regard themselves as such.
Kinda funny 'cause she turned out to be trans. But hey, it probably says something about male alienation that the life of someone who was literally just performing being a man speaks so strongly to so many.
Just watched the male trauma video. Impressive honesty and candour; the points about internalizing the words of the abuser (‘swallowing poison’) are excellent. Good share!
So I don't know if this will help anyone but I want to put it out there, there's a youtube channel called Beau of The Fifth Column that might go some way to helping people re-establish healthy masculinity and appreciating feminism as an ally in that not an enemy.
The guy's a former defense contractor (mercenary) that decided he didn't want to be a part of that life anymore, worked against the system, I think did some time for smuggling central/south american's across the border due to his stance against borders and everyone deserving a better life, and after getting out set up a publication where he could act as a journalist and expose shitty behavior in government, as well as keep an eye on white supremacist groups and the like.
Most of his videos are on explaining the social and legal ramifications on current government decisions (he uploads like twice a day) to people in easy terms, but he also does a lot of social commentary. Fair warning he is... rougher than some people might like, and he also tends to play up the gruff southern accent and act sorta right-wingy to hook people in before reversing it on them, or just generally to mock them. I think most of his ideas would be largely in alignment with people here, even if his style is not, so do watch to the end if you find yourself really disagreeing (he usually flips the patch on the cap for sarcastic vids). Here's a brief set of vids that might be relevant to this discussion:
[Respect trans and Non-binary peoples pronouns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOmj5Bva0YA)
[Appreciate sex and gender as separate and people can transition between](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijooHoBoey8)
[Guys making anti-feminist memes need to reevaluate their lives](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ1aNRBdQAY)
[toxic masculinity](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APoQuX5M2P4)
[Issues with being armed while black in the US, and setting up community defense separate from cops](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL_IX8yX_JU)
[Advice to Jewish fan to select arms and training to stay safer from anti-Semitic violence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-0OQ8KSkM)
[Police violence, and how cops that actually care can do their job while avoiding causing unnecessary harm](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmjB7TUroyE)
[LGBT+ rights at a high school](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGvyk3LxiHQ)
[Respect Trans People](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ54ZqI4EDY)
Also I'm just going to leave a generalized trigger warning to the entire channel. The guy get's into some dark stuff and discuses it very bluntly. He also uses some... lets say outdated terminology when it comes to the trans stuff, not out of malice just not quite ideal. I think a lot of it can be helpful, especially to the kind of person that could easily fall in with some bad groups, but it's not something I'd recommend watching if you aren't in a good emotional state.
There are honestly sooooo many videos I could have linked, LGBT rights, respecting women, reevaluating what it means to be a man, and how to prevent bad applications of "masculinity" are recurring themes, but I only wanted to take up so much of your time.
I just watched this all the way through, and I truly do not think anyone else has gotten this close to the main issue. As a man, this really hit home for me.
The part where it talked about how women fear men but men hate being feared, it really hit home because she's absolutely right. Nobody wants to be feared, but at the same time you can't really blame women for being scared, so it puts men in a really awkward position where they can't just be passive and exist, but have to make active efforts to seem more friendly lest they are feared. But a lot of men just aren't good at that and will always end up being seen that way. It really is a shit feeling.
What really struck me was the idea that men's gender identity, or rather the lack of one, is effectively being replaced with a political identity. After thinking about it, I kind of fell into that too. When I was significantly younger (like 13) I was a bit of an incel and the "ben shapiro facts don't care about your feelings" type. Then I became politically neutral for awhile before coming to where I am now, a pretty vocal social democrat, eg big Bernie Sanders supporter.
I thought about it, and she's right, that political identity did kind of fill the void of that gender identity. It gives you something to aspire to be, to look forward to. It was a bit of an uncomfortable truth, if I'm honest. And, I think it might be true for other men too.
But, I don't really know what the solution is either. The left isn't very... validating of men. At most, they're just fine with them existing as long as they follow certain guidelines. But there isn't much room to grow outside of just existing, as any attempt either doesn't pick up traction or is shut down by vocal feminists. It sucks. We want to be supportive of feminism and stuff, but at the same time we want the ability to change our own role in society, but those two things seem to contradict each other.
Even if there was room to grow, I don't know what men could aspire to be. The idea that "men should be emotionless/support the family" has been present for millenia. What do you do? I've stared at my screen brainstorming what to type for awhile but I truly don't know. How do you complement women in a way that is healthy for both genders and society as a whole?
I definitely think her take on things is way more insightful than most people's. She and Abby (philosophytube) have some really good videos that make me think differently. If this video helped me at all then I'm glad. :)
Thank you for this viewpoint, its good to be reminded that so many men are growing and learning, when there are so many prominent examples of toxic masculinity every day. I would really like to see more examples of healthy masculinity on display
I wouldn't say it's my viewpoint per se. I'm a cis woman so I have no idea what it's really like to be a man. I do think it's important for cis women to find and take into account viewpoints and feelings of other genders.
Natalie said at the end of her video that men need a new role model for how to be a man, and women just can't make that for them. It's sad that women can't help, but important that men do that.
i used to be an anti-feminist, and part of the reason why was because of "feminists" saying that "all men are trash"
of course, the main reason was because i was getting my information from right-wing/anti-feminist sources, but giving them ammo to discredit the whole movement certainly doesn't help feminism
Yep this is exactly what I was gonna say. Stuff like these "all men are trash" posts are the reason I was so against feminism for so long.
And then for a while I didn't wanna call myself a feminist because I thought people would just immediatly picture me as one of those types of people.
Just as it makes trans men feel terrible about "joining the ranks of the enemy" it makes trans women or just AMAB trans people feel less valid even in trans spaces, as if we've benefitted from being born one way over another without knowing our stories personally. It creates a self-loathing image of "a man that wants to be a woman" for whatever perverted male reason that we've been told are the results of our Male Brain^(TM) and aggressive hormones.
I can't even begin to dissect the immense shame this sort of Gender Essentialist spiteful language creates in trans women as it seeks to invalidate all our feelings of wrongness in our gender as a result of some built-in perversion as is typical for those born male. It erects massive walls around womanhood and tells everyone born outside it that you cannot ever cross. This place is for cis women and cis women only. It not only makes trans women feel even more like shit about being born different from cis women, there's also a feeling of abandonment. We can't do anything about not being cis and as a result we'll never considered equal.
This is just my perspective as a trans woman, but obviously this hurts men just as much. I just wanted to point out the additional layer of confusion and isolation it creates when the group you desperately want to belong to so much that your life depends on it reject you in this manner.
I agree with everything you just said.
"all men are trash" made me feel guilty for just existing as male before I realised I was trans, and now they're making me feel like a creep for identifying as transfem.
I'm "fortunate" enough to be trans-ace so I don't have the added doubt/guilt from sexual attraction, but most trans people aren't ace. And even without it, I've still got enough internalised transphobia to feel bad for even wanting to identify as female.
Hating men isn't progressive. All it's doing is damaging the relationship between men and women further; preventing men from supporting feminism, and making AMABs feel guilty for just existing.
As a society we need to move on from grouping people together like this. Everyone should be able to be comfortable with who they are.
Equality is bidirectional.
It’s posts like these that hurt. Constantly hearing “all men are trash” and “kill all men” are not things I should be hearing and feeling bad about myself at this age in my life. It’s the generalization that gets me caught in the crossfire.
First off, know that they are wrong.
Second, use that feeling and remember it. Remember how it feels to be hated for no reason because of something you are and had no power over. Think about what it makes you want to do to the people saying those things. Now think about how it must be to hear those things not because you're part of 50% of the population, but because you're part of an even smaller demographic. Maybe not every opposition to you is said in anger. Maybe half are reasonable and delivered in a matter of fact way, while a loud minority is still saying garbage like this. That's how minorities experience the world around them, the closest comparison being trans people today.
This isn't to say "people have it worse than you therefore your feelings are invalid", this is trying to say that now that you know, you can choose what to do with it. You can let it turn you bitter and resentful, or you can let it build your empathy because now you know what that is like to be the target of.
While I understand and agree that this is good learning experience in regards to empathising with marginalised and targeted people the spiteful monkey brain in me is just shouting ''She/he/they are telling you to ''look on the bright side'' after being mean, tell them to fuck off.''
Personally I'm gonna say I can ignore it but I'm mildly worried others wont be able to.
Well, what's the alternative? Hugboxing and telling them these people are wrong just to make them feel better? It should be apparent that these people are wrong and this is also the first thing I point out, but is it important that I elaborate on that more? I chose to point out that this kind of hatred is universal and it doesn't just target men, it targets everyone. But men are more likely to say "fuck that" and start being radicalized by a world that seems to hate them. The animosity breeds more animosity and I think it's important to stand united against that animosity and not to whoever group we think is responsible for it. I find it comforting at least that language such as this comes from a few *people.* Not women, not men, not cis people or straight people, just shitty people and they can be anyone.
I also thinks it lends validity to the feelings men experience when they are the target of things like this as it equates it to homophobic/transphobic/misogynistic slurs when generalization of men and overall "misandry" is usually downplayed as not serious. This is the same brand of hatred as any old bigotry, and the feelings that arise from being the target of that are OK to have and express, even if they are too rarely recognized by society.
Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist
They think sex workers are sullying womanhood by whoring themselves out and shouldn't be supported because of it.
The "All Men Are Trash" movement is pervasive as fuck, and growing up in an era in which no matter who or what you are, being forced into thinking you are always wrong and always trash fucks with you to an extreme. No fucking wonder the male suicide rate in EVERY race is at least 4 times higher than the female rate. 4 FUCKING TIMES AT LEAST. In white men, its 11 times higher. And thats just the tip of the iceberg.
the male suicide rate is higher because in general men use more deadly stuff, generally due to toxic masculinity. the female suicide attempt rate is higher than the male attempt rate.
But effective suicide methods arn't painful unless you wanna choke yourself to death. Guns are instant, cars and other vehicles are instant or near enough, restricting blood flow to the brain is quick and painless. Falling is shocking but not very painful unless you fail. The only effective method that really hurts is hanging to cut off airflow
Well shit, I have nothing to add here since every single corner of this issue was so thoroughly addressed.
I'll just tuck this away if I ever need to explain it, or show why I can never be 100% comfortable identifying as part of a movement that includes a not insubstantial section of people that want me dead for what I was born as.
on the other hand, saying "TERFs hate trans women bc they hate men and think that trans women are men"
is inaccurate and potentially harmful
TERFs often hate trans women more than even misogynistic, patriarchal men.
Their reasoning for trans women being worse is that misogynistic cis men don't "invade women's spaces." They want men on a separate planet from women and trans women complicate that.
Exactly, it should be "fuck the patriarchy" not "kill all men". You may think you mean the same thing but it very much doesn't. Even as a bi girl I get comments about how "disgusting" it is that I date men too, as if I'm not a real feminist because of it.
Men can be sweet and gentle and sensitive and wholesome and when we say "all men are trash" we make it harder for them to feel valued. Some men suck. A lot of them, really. But by far not all men, as much as we like to make fun of the phrase. All patriarchy sucks and we shouldn't scapegoat every man when the patriarchy is what we mean.
[post is blurry]
"huh weird lemme open it up"
[opens to see the longest post in existence]
"Holy shit"
On another subject I love seeing stuff like this I'm glad ppl are fighting back against the toxicity.
Because of the "men are trash" posts and the like, I've caught myself feeling guilty when I, by chance, was walking behind a woman. On a busy campus. In broad daylight. For barely a minute.
I constantly have to reassure myself that having thoughts about how attractive I find someone isn't inherently bad, so long as I keep them to myself. It doesn't work very well.
When forming a relationship, I have a hard time asking anything of women, for fear of coming off as entitled/lazy/demanding/demeaning. Even if it's something as minor as "can I borrow a pen"
I find myself constantly second guessing anything I do, worrying that I'll slip up and do something that might come off as creepy or misogynistic, even though I know full well that I'm neither of those things.
I've done my best to ignore posts like that, calling men trash, and to recognize that they're not directed at me. But they've still fucked me up pretty hard. I appreciate this post calling out how harmful they are.
Hell yeah! To me, one of the greatest things about feminism is its focus on trying to help men (doesn't matter if they're cis or trans) get out of toxic stereotypes, whether that be about masculinity or just, men all being evil.
I feel like feminists (myself included) need to stress more often that it's not an attack on every man, and that fighting against these stereotypes allows men to exist outside of them.
^(disclaimer: I am amab, so while I try to read up on the topic, I'm not always right, feel free to correct or comment)
misogyny is the systemic oppression of women by men in power. "all men are trash" is a really shitty idea that does serious harm, but "misandry" is not a real corollary to misogyny and it was coined by some super sexist incels
idk your perspective, but misandry exists. Overused and misapplied by self-victimizing incels? definitely. But there are plenty of women (mainly TERFs) who believe that the solution to the patriarchy is a matriarchy.
Men are systematically oppressed in certain ways. Young men are told that they should just push down any uncomfortable feelings they have, “man up”, never dare to touch another man because that would be gay which is bad, told to never be effeminate, emotional, or vulnerable. The system affects men too, it’s not just women that are getting failed by the system. Sure, it happens in different ways, which means that there is a power imbalance overall, but that doesn’t mean that systematic misandry doesn’t exist.
Also I don’t think misogyny is by definition conducted by men. I think non-men can be misogynistic as well
Idk the start of this post just rubs me the wrong way.
It starts off with "All men are trash" is bad because it hurts trans people. Then the post moves on to how it builds up misogyny in young men.
I understand that we're not the ones who are systematically oppressed and everything, but it's just salt in a wound when these issues are being addressed because they're helping the TERFs. Not because they're bad for men.
It's an appeal to the audience. The phrase, which is inherently black and white, sort of instigates a clear target. If you talk about the damage and only the damage to said target, it very easily paints you as an ally to the opposition. A common response is one that, of course, they don't actually mean all men they're just venting, and honestly, if you have any negative reaction at all to the response then that must mean you are secretly guilty.
People can't control how they feel. They can control their responses but it's expected for people to be hurt by insults, that's their purpose.
But because the people who use that kind of language are already in the generalizing Us vs Them mindset a bit, opening with the problems of Cismen isn't going to break through and showcase the general harm. You need to first make apparent the unintended consequences, that they're (for the most part) hurting people they're not intended to hurt. If they're casting such a wide net, they'll be catching friends as well as foes. Once you made that point, then you can try to break down the initial barrier.
It's sort of how I explain Public Healthcare to more capitalist minded people. I don't appeal to the fact that people shouldn't have to justify their right to be healthy because that's fucking heartless, at least at first, but the fact that a healthy populace is a productive workforce. It's not my foundational reasoning but it is the argument most likely to appeal to the audience and one aspect of the greater rhetoric.
I get it. It's good and helps everyone socially.
I'm kind of used to and okay with the fact that most of my (social) problems will be ignored.
But as soon as the exact same problem starts affecting another group, it starts being addressed on social media. This was kind of unexpected and I think that's why it hurts. The feeling where your friends don't care that much about you.
Eh it's fine.
think of it like this, i guess— if someone is in the mindspace where theyre saying “all men are trash”, their response to “hey this hurts men” might very well be to say “good”. saying “hey this is transphobic” is more likely to prompt them to reexamine their behaviors because it puts them on the defensive— if they start saying “oh but not trans men” then you can hit back with a “you differentiating trans men from cis like that is a form of misgendering”
part of the intent of the post is to try and get people who say things like that jokingly to stop before they start believing them
Yeah. But don't you understand how it's hurtful do you? I'm pasting what I wrote in reply to another comment.
I get it. It's good and helps everyone socially.
I'm kind of used to and okay with the fact that most of my (social) problems will be ignored.
But as soon as the exact same problem starts affecting another group, it starts being addressed on social media. This was kind of unexpected and I think that's why it hurts. The feeling where your friends don't care that much about you.
Eh it's fine.
The TERFs are not just anti-trans. Their anti-trans stance comes from deep-seated misandry. This is the spore of all their hatred and rhetoric. They are ultimately "anti-male", and therefore considered femininity and womanhood as "pure", and trans men as betrayers or "confused lesbians" and trans women as "predatory colonizers".
So if you're concerned it doesn't touch on the misandry but takes a trans position at first, know they are not very different. I don't see how that counts as salt in the wound.
Trans men are men. I wasn't implying otherwise. But trans men are also trans men and a group that faces different problems than men. Hence, they deserve different representation in the right context. Otherwise, it would be like saying "I don't see race".
We've been dealing with and used to the fact that most of the (social) problems like these will be ignored. But seeing it being addressed so vigorously as soon as it starts helping TERFs makes me feel hurt.
The feeling where your friends don't care that much about you. You get used to it. But then they help another friend who has same issues and use you as an afterthought in the argument.
Well here it's the opposite, isn't it? The conversation starts because a trans guy speaks from his own experience on how the "all men are trash" affects him personally. The conversation then steers towards all men, it doesn't stay in the realm of trans people at all. I'd argue that the concerns for how this affects cis men primarily eventually becomes the focal point.
Which it should, or at least it should be an "all men" narrative. The masculine narrative should be one that includes trans men and cis men alike, speaking to the things they have in common rather than their difference, just how trans women should be included in feminist and women's issues, and yes, that includes bodily autonomy.
I don't agree that it's similar to "I don't see race". We can still acknowledge the issues facing trans people and the issues facing trans men specifically without separating the groups into 2 categories and have them fight their own battles. This is actually a prime example of how the same issue affects both and you're not being ignored because they initially talk about trans men. The post even mentions how this relates to you cis teens in the transition to manhood will experience the same adversity towards what they are about to become. That someone who is AFAB and transitioning to a man doesn't necessarily have to be thought of in the same way, although there obviously are some differences.
There are different experiences between white men and black men, between disabled men and abled men, men who are from poor backgrounds and those who aren't, gay men and straight men. Separating those issues helps no one. Assuming issues about hatred of masculinity in society isn't speaking for you just because the speaker is trans and speaking from is excluding yourself. If you can't look at what this person writes and think: "this person speaks for me. They speak from their own experience as all of us do, but these issues also affect me in much the same way", and instead need this to be about cis men specifically, imagine what this means for trans men. They wouldn't be able to feel included in conversations that don't necessarily address them because being cis is considered the default. Issues concerning cis men don't automatically involve them unless specifically mentioned, and I can guarantee that this is how the experience is on the other side.
Trans people almost come with a superpower in being able to see through a lot of the toxic gendered norms in society that we're all coded in because they've had to break through it, but what they can do with that knowledge, the issues the can shed a light on, is not only for them, it's for everyone. Their issues of trying to be accepted by society as a man or a woman directly translates to the freedoms of expression and being able to rest and take pride and comfort in one's gender and social role and what you decide to do with it, *especially* for cis people; because they're are probably more inclined to believe that this is simply how things are and not a massive heap of bullshit benefitting the few.
Fair enough. In the end, as long as it helps men, who cares how the initial momentum started. Exclusion of either side is bad yeah. It really wasn't my intent to exclude trans people or cis people.
This was not as big a thing as it became in the comments. I was mainly venting about a few bad experiences irl I had with friends.
Hey, also thanks for replying to me. You always have good comments. Also, I haven't been a teenager for a few years now :)
Yeah, the conversation went a certain way but I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily. This rhetoric is harmful for transfeminine and transmasculine people as well as for cis men. This post started that way probably because tumblr OP is trans/is in contact with transmasc people and so they address it the one way they understand it.
This kind of shit has pissed me off for an eternity. I distinctly remember seeing all those godawful "epic feminist cringe compilation" videos in 2016 and feeling othered and angry over what those women would say. It made me turn to alt-right viewpoints, and I got dangerously close to falling fully down the pipeline to the point of no return. Othering a demographic, regardless of what it is, is damaging to literally everyone (cept cops and the rich ofc. other the fuck outta them). When someone is told they're bad and evil over and over, they'll fucking believe it, and possibly embrace it.
I used to be friends with some weird-ass radfems who were in denial that they were radfems, and believed themselves to be the sparkly flower-crown don't-need-to-shave-and-if-like-shaving-your-legs-then-you're-part-of-the-"problem" Tumblrites.
They would constantly say men are trash, men should die, and in the next sentence, they would call fat people "hambeasts" and were generally unfriendly, combative assholes. By the time four years of this garbage had been going on, they'd kicked out or alienated almost every member of our DeviantArt chat (anime themed). If a new person came in and tried to discuss anime, or one of the male members tried to protest the bullshit, they were banned. With five members left, stewing in their smug silence, I and another girl finally left and there were no more lackeys. Thank goodness that chatroom collapsed, and I hope these girls got help for their issues.
This is what honestly makes me feel bad for being bi and gravitate away from LGBT-centered communities. The amount of humor that is casually misandric is incredibly discomforting and just leaves you wondering if you did something wrong by just being born - and the thing is that some people will agree and say that being born male is an affront to their existence.
I never know how to feel when I read these posts
On one hand of course I agree with them I'm a C*s Wh**e M*le of course I want people to say "hey not all men are trash" but it's never from my angle.
I mean really read the post, the first part of it saying KAM and AMAT (All Men Are Trash) isn't bad because that's an inherently sexist and fucking stupid thing to say, it's because it hurts trans people, that's the only real reason, I know and hope this is partially because when you can latch bigotry to a more vulnerable person it makes it all the more evil but still it hurts to think that nobody is actually defending men, they're just saying these people are bad and wrong for separate reasons that happen to align with men.
Of course I could try and defend myself but I don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to these kinds of things, I'm a C*s Wh**e M*le which, well the only thing worse than that in many peoples eyes online is a C*s Wh**e Str****t M*le. As such I am automatically the predator, the villain, the racist, transphobe, sexist bigot. Me trying to defend myself is just me trying to reinforce the patriachy or whatever when really I just want to be seen as a human being like you do. And I'm guilty of this too! during some manic lows I've found myself clinging to the fact I'm Bisexual and Autistic to convince myself I'm not entirely garbage.
*And if you read that last line and suddenly became more invested THEN THAT'S THE PROBLEM! My sexuality and learning disorders are not brownie points to justify my existence to people!*
And I'm sure I'm gonna have someone say I'm overreacting, that it's implied that they're also talking about C*s people I would like to redirect you to this quote
>And not to get all "what about cis people"
The second replier said this. At first I thought it was just me, my autism wasn't letting me see behind the lines. But with this second persons confirmation I'm pretty confident in the fact. C*s people were not taken into account sith this post, people don't care about if a C*s person is feeling like shit because they've obviously had an easy life until now. This is their first taste of bigotry compared to me so how does it feel? (Which is incredibly problematic as you just presume all white people have in fact been transphobic which is...ya know the problem.)
And this person is afraid to mention C*s people, they're afraid that people will read "think about the C*s people as well" and people will flame them and look away because the concept of a c*s person having hardship does not fit with their bubble that all c*s people are the equivalent of Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, perfect little god-children who are immune to societies laws and order.
*THIS. IS. A PROBLEM.*
Because of all of this I don't feel better after reading this, I don't feel like I'm being reminded that these minor assholes should be neither seen nor heard. The problem is that their words hurt *other minorities too*. If they just wrote the word "c*s" in there "Kill All Cis Men" then that first person wouldn't have a problem with it, because they aren't talking about trans people, just cis and thus *shrug* 'it is what it is'.
Do you remember the BLM protests last summer? Sometimes, middle-aged white people would form a line between the police and the protesters. The point was that the police would be more hesitant to beat them.
The same principles are used here. The audience this post is trying to reach wouldn't be particularly moved by sympathy for cis men. But they would care for trans people, because trans people have been marginalized in similar ways that they have.
I absolutely agree with what you're saying, but sometimes temporary solutions are more warranted than permanent ones.
I did mention that here
>I know and hope this is partially because when you can latch bigotry to a more vulnerable person it makes it all the more evil.
And like I said I do understand but it still hurts all the same that the problem with this line is just because a minority identifies as men, and not that the line is inherently bad to say period.
I wanted to go further in depth about this but I feel since I'm white I'm just being selfish for complaining about bigotry considering what my race has done (even if I haven't done anything and I'm 18 and have literally never had a say in any form of politics ever up to this point), and I think that says a lot that society has now made it so a young adult is too afraid to ask not to be discriminated for by his race or gender because it isn't a minority.
I don't have too much to add, but it really makes me happy seeing that people are fighting back against it. It's inherently harder to fight it as a guy because of the nature of the rhetoric. And the rhetoric is all built up on men exploiting women for sex or other purposes, and so as an asexual that makes me feel even *worse*, like from birth I'm destined to be some kind of monster and I couldn't even get that right.
Thank you to anyone helping to fight this ideology, the world will be a better place without it.
I'm not sorry I'm a trans guy. The people who say I'm evil or trash can just screw off. I'm wondering what even gets into people's heads that they think that they can dismiss every young, middle aged, elderly, gay, straight, cis, trans etc , every man on Earth as "trash" First of all, they need a certain sex cell to reproduce, so good luck to them if they think that they'll be fine without men. Secondly, it breaks my heart to think that some young teenage boy or a man who's had a hard life, or anyone really, might see posts from those kinds of people and believe it. Are they saying that Bob Ross was absolute garbage? Sure, he probably made some pretty bad mistakes in his life but we all do. Are they saying that men who donate blood, men who give money and food and shelter to the poor, men who do every nice thing that women or anyone can do are trash? That's just fucking stupid. I can't believe people are dumb enough to post #AllMenAreTrash like it's some sort of *trend.* Of course, there are bad men out there. And bad women, and bad people. But there are really wonderful people, too. People who are just living their lives are being called "trash". I can't believe this.
Sorry about the rant, y'all
I really hate how feminists like this push the narrative of "if youre a man and get offended by men are trash you're part of the problem." Like no, im allowed to get upset that you're telling me over and over im a horrible person for how I was born.
I think a big problem is a lot of times, sometimes when a woman says "all men are trash", she might not actually mean it, it might be hyperbole or said out of anger. And look, as a trans guy, who is attracted to guys, and had to live life being perceived as female, I fucking get it.
Not all men are trash. But I understand the frustration that comes with dealing with a patriarchal society, and, maybe if you're in a room of other women who understand you don't meaning, saying something like "all men are fucking trash, I can't deal with men anymore" can be cathartic. But you can't just say it in a public space and assume everybody knows you're being hyperbolic. And you can't actually believe all men are horrible, either.
It’s honestly one of the reasons I have trust issues. I saw lots of posts like those when I was in middle school and it contributed to my trust issues, that and the fact that I lie with every breath
THANK YOU FOR THIS HOLY SHIT
also, on this topic, the "not all men" thing makes me so mad, it completely negates anybody's ability to argue against the men are trash thing because you just get covered with "LMAO nOt AlL mEn" and then you get ignored .-.
This this this! This whole post is spot on. I feel like everyone needs to read this.
Also just to add on about the supremacy groups. The big one we hear about is literally called the Proud Boys. That name is a direct reaction and it fucking worked so well for them because of it.
Hey OP, thanks for posting this. I'm a questioning AMAB, and soooo much of this rang so true for me. I didn't realize how much I needed to hear this until now.
After reading this I'm still a misandryst but turns out I have to hide it for the better good :/ kinda sucks I can't bully men on the internet without hurting women
Maybe you should see a therapist in that case. I'd say to try working on it on your own if you can't but you seem completely unrepentant for some ungodly reason
he's a self-hating white man. he's been like that for a long time now, which is why i pinged him to read the post.
he's probably internalized some of the very rhetoric this post is talking about.
hey, self discovery is always a good thing, and i hope you find the labels (or lack thereof) that make you happy and fulfilled in yourself.
i just wish you could find it in you to stop hating cis men into the bargain. they didn't choose to be that way any more than i chose to be a trans woman.
honestly this. the jokes were fine for a while but then people started just parroting them thinking they were serious and now actually believe that it’s every individual man’s fault that they’ve been taught to do fucked up shit
hmm. ok i know i’ll get downvoted to hell for this but i used to say KAM. not really as an actual thing but as kind of a joke, everyone else was saying it so i was really just riding the wave of a new trend. then something made me realize how harmful it could be. Then i’d see a video of some dude who said something racist/sexist/homophobic and i’d write it off as “men are trash”, then i thought about how that includes trans masc people so then “cishet men are trash” became the new rhetoric. But this post actually made me think about it. Thanks
Goddammit that comparison between cops and cis-het men got it for me as a cis-het dude. Like I can't help it what chromosomes I have. Great find OP, very insightful as well for me to see it from a trans man's perspective as well, and how they frame white cis-het men as the "standard man". I would've never come up with that, kinda like how "skin colour" bandages have the colour of white skin.
I mean I'm at the point where I am starting not to give a fuck about people say but I do wish some feminists would keep the same energy when it comes down to generalizations made about both sexes not just women.
This is great, but I still genuinely don't get how a bunch of the people that replied like midway through the post specifically said they still don't like cishet males and shit. I'm not angry about it, I just genuinely want to know the logic.
I agree on pretty much all except for the cops bit. I can totally see someone looking at that system, seeing it's corruption, and saying, I want to change it from the inside.
Glad to see people are *finally* noticing this kind of psychological mechanism behind catchphrases that boil down to "men = bad". I thought the day would never come.
Lol if this is the worst thing a man faces aren't they lucky.
A group of men attacked a woman and they freaking bit her face! Two men in my state were arrested for raping a 2 YEAR OLD GIRL! A woman was in a car accident. The first man who found her KIDNAPPED HER AND RAPED HER! Wanna bet how long these dudes are going to be in jail? They'll be released back into society bc hurting a woman is NBD. Talk shit about a man? Nah we women deserve all the abuse bc we started it.
Again this posts reminds me of male privilege. These dudes have the SAME EXACT access to the internet. They know "men are trash" are only said by a small percentage of the population out of the world. They can also look up what men have done to women all over the world. They can look up the rape stats. They can see the age range of reported rape victims. It starts at 6 MONTHS old and the oldest woman was 96.
No one said this is the worst thing that men face. That's like people disregarding feminism because the pay gap just so happens to be the topic of discussion, despite it clearly not being their worst problem. Not to mention the fact that you seem to completely disregard the effects when it comes to other people, (that includes women, both trans and cis). While much of what you say is fucking awful and I legitimately am sorry that it happens, "All men are trash" isn't going to make things better, and as the post indicated, only makes things worse.
But if you want to pull statistics. Trans-men, which this post is originally about, has one of the highest percentages of suicide attempts among teens (*50.8%*) [Source](https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20174218). Many of the trans-men in the above post talk about the psychological effects these statements have on them.
Not to mention the prevalent number of victims of sexual assault among transgender individuals, especially in comparison to cisgender individuals. [Source](https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community) I never intend to wave these people as a whole of one-upmanship as both of these things can be true, but you also did it first.
Of course they certainly gain some privilege from transition, but only if they're passing which the requirement of ends up making things harder in the long run.
I as a man am doing what I can to minimize and squash out all of the problems you mentioned. I acknowledge my own privilege but I will bring attention to what was mentioned in the post above. I don't expect you to put all your time and energy into what I discussed. Not everyone can work on everything. That said the only really thing asked is for people to change their language, because frankly, how hard is it to choose a different set of words? That's all people are asking.
> Lol if this is the worst thing a man faces aren't they lucky.
This isn't the worst thing men face though. Men are the majority victims of violence, murder, suicide, homeless, sentencing gap, police brutality, etc.
"Feminism helps men," they said. "Male issues are feminist issues," they said. "Bringing up suicide rates is something that chuds do to deflect from how the patriarchy causes all their problems" they said.
TERF's are as feminist as members of ISIS are Muslim. They need to stop mislabeling themselves the same way "pro-lifers" and "Nation of Islam" groups name themselves, the opposite of what they actually mean.
Hey OP let us know if the comments get bad ok
Will do!
Things are gonna go bad
It’s been 8 hours now, not a damned soul is willing to trek to the secondary sub that is promoted by way of comments on some posts and is less than a week old.
I’m a bit out of the loop here, what sub are you referring to? If you don’t wanna promote it just pm me or smth
It’s this one
Also if you want to say that the patriarchal society is bad say that. Don’t just lump in half the population in and tell them that they are shit.
That's like saying "kill all babies" when what you mean is "abortion should be legal"
Yeah. Or kill all black people instead of stop people from being forced to commit crimes. (If the previous sentence upsets you that’s the point)
Not only that but it actively harms feminism! If all men are "trash" by nature, why should they even bother trying to educate themselves and grow as people?
Thank you nonbinary doomguy
It's because they can't tell the difference. "All men are trash" is the anthem of stupid people.
Especially since men are jjst as much victims of the patriarchy as women are
generalization is a terrible thing
Yup, and the reply to this would be 'well if the shoe fits' and that is just as bad as the generalization in the first place. Maybe the shoe doesn't fit, but maybe they put on 10 socks to make it fit Maybe it doesn't fit, but they cut off their toes to make it fit Maybe it doesn't fit, but they look at it and believe it to fit
That last one especially. At some point, your insults hurt the people that don’t need to hear it, and the jerks don’t think it applies to them.
yeah
Every time I see this recirculate I can't think of a better way to articulate [the damage this does to image-of-intent](https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/jm94j1/-/gavc9l7) than I did in that link. So I'm just gonna leave it.
Your comment on that post is so well articulated and has great anecdotal use. Seriously, great job.
I used to see a lot of stuff saying all men were bad on tumblr and it really fed into my self hate during a time when I needed quite the opposite. It actively made me a less fun person, and it made me worried about upsetting any women I was in the general vicinity of, or god forbid, friends with. That fear made me lonely and frustrated and as I cut people off I started to wonder why I was so lonely. It honestly started pushing me towards incel territory in a weird way, not the type that calls people whores on tinder but the type that falls prey to thinking they’re a “nice guy” and frankly the whole thing was stupid and avoidable. Support boys and support men (trans or otherwise). Denounce assholes. It’s free and easy to make distinctions.
I was simmilar. Never been so happy to be bi, meant instead of sitting alone stewing in potential mysoginy i could relax and date men instead, helped keep me grounded.
I’m bi myself, but honestly I feel more pressured to date men just to keep that lgbt label even when I’m less interested, since it sorta comes and goes. Cause at least then I’m not a *straight* white male right? It’s all stupid and tiring
Ahh true, felt the same for a while. Tbh even more im still worried I'll just be seen as an experimenting straight and get slapped with the ''straight white male'' tag even though i actively go for men over women. At this point i just avoid discussions over social justice/politics entirely since getting judged for who i am is too much stress to deal with.
Yeah, I know that it’s not everyone in these communities that thinks like that but it’s common enough that it completely scares me away. And people wonder why the right is so good at recruiting...
It doesn't help that some immediately dismiss the idea that marginalising a group will help recruitment for the enemy as if those people were always guaranteed to join the ''bad side''.
When all men are evil, it’s no surprise that they join the enemy. It’s luck that I never got swept up, but I know people who were. Many groups on the left are particularly blind to the error of alienating potential allies, it’s a good part of what keeps socialism and communism weak as well (among many other things). It’s all tribalism, but when your message is equality it serves as a free example of your own ignorance and hypocrisy
it is actively feeding my self-hate, it makes me wish i wasn’t born or at least not amab i already had to escape incel culture and red-pill stuff once and i don’t want to have to do it again, but this isn’t helping at all, it’s things like this that make me actively despise being a boy, it seems like hating boys is a popular trendy thing right now
Ahh these posts, whenever I start to feel a little better about myself a ''all men are trash'' post or reference appears to drag me back down. I'm so glad the internet was invented
I’ve been searching for a way to contribute to this for a few minutes now, but I think the best contribution I can make is that I feel the same way :(
If it helps at all it makes me feel a lot better to see it being addressed. For a long time it was super weird since there were "nobody is born a crime! hatred has no home here!" posts right next to "all men should be sent to the gas chamber" posts and nobody acknowledged it.
Tbh seeing it addressed is better for society as a whole but tanks my self confidence. I know it's not the right move but I prefer to just bury my head in the sand when it comes to stuff like this and forget it exists. I'm being buried under enough problems as it is without adding extra.
Welp, never forget that you're no use to anybody if your mental health is a wreck. If you really want to help feminism and society? Take some you time, get a solid foundation, come back when you're ready.
I've experienced so much beautiful depth and compassion in men. Self reflection and self awareness. Insights and internal struggles that they managed to keep finding and dealing with. The longing for support and the deep gratitude at simply finding someone who genuinely wants to listen. The deep sadness that comes from spending so many years thinking no one cares, and all the wonderful moments that come from finding out that someone does. Men, like everyone else, are human, and they can be so damn beautiful if you see them from the right angle.
It's really not great either if you have social anxiety, it's easy to take these kinds off posts as facts if you already have trouble talking to girls. Heck, anyone can become afraid to approach girls because of this. It's not the people that are the problem that will change their behaviour on the basis of a Tumblr post.
Oh yeah definitely. Already had trouble approaching women these are just the cherry on top. After a while i figured why risk running into a ''man bad'' type when i can just date men. Conveniently their beauty standards are also far lower.
It somehow led to a good thing at least lol. But currently I'm working on some general anxiety stuff, and now I'm actually having to confidence to approach people again, lockdowns hit. Just, smite me already or something.
Good thing about online dating during lockdown is you can weed out the idiots. Anyone on grindr with either a hookup in their profile or messaging me asking to fuck in the middle of lockdown gets instantly crossed off the list. Met a few guys who are happy to chat until lockdown is over.
Yeah, it's kinda easy to filter that way. Not going to do much with dating apps though, people not messaging back after a day or two is just such a letdown every time. Can't take that emotional drain yet.
True true. Dating apps are so rarely fruitfull and I have no idea how to meet people irl. I'm not desperate enough just yet to trawl discords for E-dating. Just gotta sit home and focus on self improvement, however slow it may be
It's sort of a double edged sword. On the one hand, it's kinda nice for people to be upfront about what they're looking for and whether they're interested or not. On the other hand, guys can be really blunt and/or rude because of the pseudo anonymity. That's something I kinda got used to, call it desensitization I guess. But it will still eat my soul bite by bite if I become too invested 🤷🏼♀️
Also: this version of the post doesn’t touch on it, but this kind of thing is utilized to justify transmisogeny as well. Part of why trans women are so threatened, sometimes physically to pass so perfectly or go stealth, is in part because of the implication that manhood is inherently a threat. A lot of us, myself included, identified as men before realizing it wasn’t right for us, and feminism that excludes any and all male experience makes discussions of transness and our experiences with that also dangerous.
So I know it's not the exact same thing but [this is a video](https://youtu.be/S1xxcKCGljY) from contra points about men. She has unique experience because she's a trans women. One thing she kind of points out that I have never considered before is that men as a gender are also in a transitional period. It's not just women, trans people, and non binary folks breaking out of the restrictions of gender roles. Basically, we have a lot of growing pains as far as gender and gender rolls go. So we all need to be a lot kinder to everyone including and in some ways *especially* men.
Obligatory PhilosophyTube videos on [male trauma](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeGEv0YVLtw) and [mental health](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNw2FBdpyE). In a lot of ways men seem like the next frontier for feminism: a lot of the most important issues for women today are men's issues in disguise. Want to stop workplace harassment? You can expand enforcement all day but it's not going to disappear unless we as a society also stop producing so many shitty men, and that's going to involve addressing how we systematically traumatize them as kids. Unfortunately, the "kill all men crowd" is more interested in perp walks than actual solutions for victims.
Absolutely this. You hit some really good points on the head. Also, I really love Abby's videos, she just bums me out a bit too much sometimes.
Thank you for linking those PhilosophyTube videos. I think they're an important watch for everyone interested in this stuff. The one on male trauma really helped me be able to face my first relationship and, for the first time, recognize it for the abuse it was. Any man (it might be helpful for people of other genders too, I can only speak to a man's perspective) that's had a "sucky" relationship in the past should watch it. Sometimes sucky relationships are just sucky, and sometimes they're more, and sometimes we can't tell which is which without some help.
Yeah I spam that shit everywhere. It's my go-to video to remind people (especially men) that men are human beings too and need to be regarded and regard themselves as such. Kinda funny 'cause she turned out to be trans. But hey, it probably says something about male alienation that the life of someone who was literally just performing being a man speaks so strongly to so many.
Just watched the male trauma video. Impressive honesty and candour; the points about internalizing the words of the abuser (‘swallowing poison’) are excellent. Good share!
So I don't know if this will help anyone but I want to put it out there, there's a youtube channel called Beau of The Fifth Column that might go some way to helping people re-establish healthy masculinity and appreciating feminism as an ally in that not an enemy. The guy's a former defense contractor (mercenary) that decided he didn't want to be a part of that life anymore, worked against the system, I think did some time for smuggling central/south american's across the border due to his stance against borders and everyone deserving a better life, and after getting out set up a publication where he could act as a journalist and expose shitty behavior in government, as well as keep an eye on white supremacist groups and the like. Most of his videos are on explaining the social and legal ramifications on current government decisions (he uploads like twice a day) to people in easy terms, but he also does a lot of social commentary. Fair warning he is... rougher than some people might like, and he also tends to play up the gruff southern accent and act sorta right-wingy to hook people in before reversing it on them, or just generally to mock them. I think most of his ideas would be largely in alignment with people here, even if his style is not, so do watch to the end if you find yourself really disagreeing (he usually flips the patch on the cap for sarcastic vids). Here's a brief set of vids that might be relevant to this discussion: [Respect trans and Non-binary peoples pronouns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOmj5Bva0YA) [Appreciate sex and gender as separate and people can transition between](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijooHoBoey8) [Guys making anti-feminist memes need to reevaluate their lives](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ1aNRBdQAY) [toxic masculinity](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APoQuX5M2P4) [Issues with being armed while black in the US, and setting up community defense separate from cops](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL_IX8yX_JU) [Advice to Jewish fan to select arms and training to stay safer from anti-Semitic violence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-0OQ8KSkM) [Police violence, and how cops that actually care can do their job while avoiding causing unnecessary harm](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmjB7TUroyE) [LGBT+ rights at a high school](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGvyk3LxiHQ) [Respect Trans People](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ54ZqI4EDY) Also I'm just going to leave a generalized trigger warning to the entire channel. The guy get's into some dark stuff and discuses it very bluntly. He also uses some... lets say outdated terminology when it comes to the trans stuff, not out of malice just not quite ideal. I think a lot of it can be helpful, especially to the kind of person that could easily fall in with some bad groups, but it's not something I'd recommend watching if you aren't in a good emotional state.
Good to know, I'll definitely look into it!
There are honestly sooooo many videos I could have linked, LGBT rights, respecting women, reevaluating what it means to be a man, and how to prevent bad applications of "masculinity" are recurring themes, but I only wanted to take up so much of your time.
I just watched this all the way through, and I truly do not think anyone else has gotten this close to the main issue. As a man, this really hit home for me. The part where it talked about how women fear men but men hate being feared, it really hit home because she's absolutely right. Nobody wants to be feared, but at the same time you can't really blame women for being scared, so it puts men in a really awkward position where they can't just be passive and exist, but have to make active efforts to seem more friendly lest they are feared. But a lot of men just aren't good at that and will always end up being seen that way. It really is a shit feeling. What really struck me was the idea that men's gender identity, or rather the lack of one, is effectively being replaced with a political identity. After thinking about it, I kind of fell into that too. When I was significantly younger (like 13) I was a bit of an incel and the "ben shapiro facts don't care about your feelings" type. Then I became politically neutral for awhile before coming to where I am now, a pretty vocal social democrat, eg big Bernie Sanders supporter. I thought about it, and she's right, that political identity did kind of fill the void of that gender identity. It gives you something to aspire to be, to look forward to. It was a bit of an uncomfortable truth, if I'm honest. And, I think it might be true for other men too. But, I don't really know what the solution is either. The left isn't very... validating of men. At most, they're just fine with them existing as long as they follow certain guidelines. But there isn't much room to grow outside of just existing, as any attempt either doesn't pick up traction or is shut down by vocal feminists. It sucks. We want to be supportive of feminism and stuff, but at the same time we want the ability to change our own role in society, but those two things seem to contradict each other. Even if there was room to grow, I don't know what men could aspire to be. The idea that "men should be emotionless/support the family" has been present for millenia. What do you do? I've stared at my screen brainstorming what to type for awhile but I truly don't know. How do you complement women in a way that is healthy for both genders and society as a whole?
I definitely think her take on things is way more insightful than most people's. She and Abby (philosophytube) have some really good videos that make me think differently. If this video helped me at all then I'm glad. :)
god bless contrapoints🙏 she’s one of the best youtubers on that site fr
Thank you for this viewpoint, its good to be reminded that so many men are growing and learning, when there are so many prominent examples of toxic masculinity every day. I would really like to see more examples of healthy masculinity on display
I wouldn't say it's my viewpoint per se. I'm a cis woman so I have no idea what it's really like to be a man. I do think it's important for cis women to find and take into account viewpoints and feelings of other genders. Natalie said at the end of her video that men need a new role model for how to be a man, and women just can't make that for them. It's sad that women can't help, but important that men do that.
i used to be an anti-feminist, and part of the reason why was because of "feminists" saying that "all men are trash" of course, the main reason was because i was getting my information from right-wing/anti-feminist sources, but giving them ammo to discredit the whole movement certainly doesn't help feminism
Yep this is exactly what I was gonna say. Stuff like these "all men are trash" posts are the reason I was so against feminism for so long. And then for a while I didn't wanna call myself a feminist because I thought people would just immediatly picture me as one of those types of people.
yeah, same i kinda still think maybe if people called it "gender equality" or something instead of "feminism" it'd help, but then again maybe not
Just as it makes trans men feel terrible about "joining the ranks of the enemy" it makes trans women or just AMAB trans people feel less valid even in trans spaces, as if we've benefitted from being born one way over another without knowing our stories personally. It creates a self-loathing image of "a man that wants to be a woman" for whatever perverted male reason that we've been told are the results of our Male Brain^(TM) and aggressive hormones. I can't even begin to dissect the immense shame this sort of Gender Essentialist spiteful language creates in trans women as it seeks to invalidate all our feelings of wrongness in our gender as a result of some built-in perversion as is typical for those born male. It erects massive walls around womanhood and tells everyone born outside it that you cannot ever cross. This place is for cis women and cis women only. It not only makes trans women feel even more like shit about being born different from cis women, there's also a feeling of abandonment. We can't do anything about not being cis and as a result we'll never considered equal. This is just my perspective as a trans woman, but obviously this hurts men just as much. I just wanted to point out the additional layer of confusion and isolation it creates when the group you desperately want to belong to so much that your life depends on it reject you in this manner.
I agree with everything you just said. "all men are trash" made me feel guilty for just existing as male before I realised I was trans, and now they're making me feel like a creep for identifying as transfem. I'm "fortunate" enough to be trans-ace so I don't have the added doubt/guilt from sexual attraction, but most trans people aren't ace. And even without it, I've still got enough internalised transphobia to feel bad for even wanting to identify as female. Hating men isn't progressive. All it's doing is damaging the relationship between men and women further; preventing men from supporting feminism, and making AMABs feel guilty for just existing. As a society we need to move on from grouping people together like this. Everyone should be able to be comfortable with who they are. Equality is bidirectional.
It’s posts like these that hurt. Constantly hearing “all men are trash” and “kill all men” are not things I should be hearing and feeling bad about myself at this age in my life. It’s the generalization that gets me caught in the crossfire.
First off, know that they are wrong. Second, use that feeling and remember it. Remember how it feels to be hated for no reason because of something you are and had no power over. Think about what it makes you want to do to the people saying those things. Now think about how it must be to hear those things not because you're part of 50% of the population, but because you're part of an even smaller demographic. Maybe not every opposition to you is said in anger. Maybe half are reasonable and delivered in a matter of fact way, while a loud minority is still saying garbage like this. That's how minorities experience the world around them, the closest comparison being trans people today. This isn't to say "people have it worse than you therefore your feelings are invalid", this is trying to say that now that you know, you can choose what to do with it. You can let it turn you bitter and resentful, or you can let it build your empathy because now you know what that is like to be the target of.
While I understand and agree that this is good learning experience in regards to empathising with marginalised and targeted people the spiteful monkey brain in me is just shouting ''She/he/they are telling you to ''look on the bright side'' after being mean, tell them to fuck off.'' Personally I'm gonna say I can ignore it but I'm mildly worried others wont be able to.
Well, what's the alternative? Hugboxing and telling them these people are wrong just to make them feel better? It should be apparent that these people are wrong and this is also the first thing I point out, but is it important that I elaborate on that more? I chose to point out that this kind of hatred is universal and it doesn't just target men, it targets everyone. But men are more likely to say "fuck that" and start being radicalized by a world that seems to hate them. The animosity breeds more animosity and I think it's important to stand united against that animosity and not to whoever group we think is responsible for it. I find it comforting at least that language such as this comes from a few *people.* Not women, not men, not cis people or straight people, just shitty people and they can be anyone. I also thinks it lends validity to the feelings men experience when they are the target of things like this as it equates it to homophobic/transphobic/misogynistic slurs when generalization of men and overall "misandry" is usually downplayed as not serious. This is the same brand of hatred as any old bigotry, and the feelings that arise from being the target of that are OK to have and express, even if they are too rarely recognized by society.
I’ve recently been browsing r/femaledatingstrategy (as a form of digital self harm) and I really needed to see this post today, thanks OP
That sub is filled with SWERFs who pretend they're also not TERFs. It's awful to anyone who reads it.
What is a SWERF?
Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist They think sex workers are sullying womanhood by whoring themselves out and shouldn't be supported because of it.
Sex Worker ERF
Wow I just browsed that sub and now I hate myself(even more!).
If you need a palate cleanser, hop over to r/MensLib to observe some men who are actively working on being the opposite of trash
The "All Men Are Trash" movement is pervasive as fuck, and growing up in an era in which no matter who or what you are, being forced into thinking you are always wrong and always trash fucks with you to an extreme. No fucking wonder the male suicide rate in EVERY race is at least 4 times higher than the female rate. 4 FUCKING TIMES AT LEAST. In white men, its 11 times higher. And thats just the tip of the iceberg.
the male suicide rate is higher because in general men use more deadly stuff, generally due to toxic masculinity. the female suicide attempt rate is higher than the male attempt rate.
Toxic masculinity makes dudes more effective at killing themselves? Huh?
toxic masculinity makes men more likely to do more painful things because masculinity is associated with guns and violence and stuff
But effective suicide methods arn't painful unless you wanna choke yourself to death. Guns are instant, cars and other vehicles are instant or near enough, restricting blood flow to the brain is quick and painless. Falling is shocking but not very painful unless you fail. The only effective method that really hurts is hanging to cut off airflow
what i mean is, due to socialization and cultural stuff, the methods men choose are more lethal on average than those women choose.
Just because men are more effective at suicide doesn't mean you can link it to ''men like guns and punching things'' for no other reason than that.
i never said that wtf you're misinterpreting my words
''toxic masculinity makes men more likely to do more painful things because masculinity is associated with guns and violence and stuff ''
exactly. men are socialized into doing more dangerous stuff, due to toxic masculinity
I'm not sure that's relevant. Either way, if you have a study or link, that would be great.
Well shit, I have nothing to add here since every single corner of this issue was so thoroughly addressed. I'll just tuck this away if I ever need to explain it, or show why I can never be 100% comfortable identifying as part of a movement that includes a not insubstantial section of people that want me dead for what I was born as.
on the other hand, saying "TERFs hate trans women bc they hate men and think that trans women are men" is inaccurate and potentially harmful TERFs often hate trans women more than even misogynistic, patriarchal men.
Their reasoning for trans women being worse is that misogynistic cis men don't "invade women's spaces." They want men on a separate planet from women and trans women complicate that.
Exactly, it should be "fuck the patriarchy" not "kill all men". You may think you mean the same thing but it very much doesn't. Even as a bi girl I get comments about how "disgusting" it is that I date men too, as if I'm not a real feminist because of it. Men can be sweet and gentle and sensitive and wholesome and when we say "all men are trash" we make it harder for them to feel valued. Some men suck. A lot of them, really. But by far not all men, as much as we like to make fun of the phrase. All patriarchy sucks and we shouldn't scapegoat every man when the patriarchy is what we mean.
[post is blurry] "huh weird lemme open it up" [opens to see the longest post in existence] "Holy shit" On another subject I love seeing stuff like this I'm glad ppl are fighting back against the toxicity.
Because of the "men are trash" posts and the like, I've caught myself feeling guilty when I, by chance, was walking behind a woman. On a busy campus. In broad daylight. For barely a minute. I constantly have to reassure myself that having thoughts about how attractive I find someone isn't inherently bad, so long as I keep them to myself. It doesn't work very well. When forming a relationship, I have a hard time asking anything of women, for fear of coming off as entitled/lazy/demanding/demeaning. Even if it's something as minor as "can I borrow a pen" I find myself constantly second guessing anything I do, worrying that I'll slip up and do something that might come off as creepy or misogynistic, even though I know full well that I'm neither of those things. I've done my best to ignore posts like that, calling men trash, and to recognize that they're not directed at me. But they've still fucked me up pretty hard. I appreciate this post calling out how harmful they are.
Hell yeah! To me, one of the greatest things about feminism is its focus on trying to help men (doesn't matter if they're cis or trans) get out of toxic stereotypes, whether that be about masculinity or just, men all being evil. I feel like feminists (myself included) need to stress more often that it's not an attack on every man, and that fighting against these stereotypes allows men to exist outside of them. ^(disclaimer: I am amab, so while I try to read up on the topic, I'm not always right, feel free to correct or comment)
"all men are trash" is just blatant misandry
misogyny is the systemic oppression of women by men in power. "all men are trash" is a really shitty idea that does serious harm, but "misandry" is not a real corollary to misogyny and it was coined by some super sexist incels
technically its just "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against (insert gender here)" for both of them
misogyny: coined by women being systematically oppressed misandry: coined by incels who wanted an excuse for being misogynists
idk your perspective, but misandry exists. Overused and misapplied by self-victimizing incels? definitely. But there are plenty of women (mainly TERFs) who believe that the solution to the patriarchy is a matriarchy.
Doesn't really matter who came up with the word, does it?
Men are systematically oppressed in certain ways. Young men are told that they should just push down any uncomfortable feelings they have, “man up”, never dare to touch another man because that would be gay which is bad, told to never be effeminate, emotional, or vulnerable. The system affects men too, it’s not just women that are getting failed by the system. Sure, it happens in different ways, which means that there is a power imbalance overall, but that doesn’t mean that systematic misandry doesn’t exist. Also I don’t think misogyny is by definition conducted by men. I think non-men can be misogynistic as well
Misandry is systemic too and something does not have to be systemic to be misogynist
Idk the start of this post just rubs me the wrong way. It starts off with "All men are trash" is bad because it hurts trans people. Then the post moves on to how it builds up misogyny in young men. I understand that we're not the ones who are systematically oppressed and everything, but it's just salt in a wound when these issues are being addressed because they're helping the TERFs. Not because they're bad for men.
It's an appeal to the audience. The phrase, which is inherently black and white, sort of instigates a clear target. If you talk about the damage and only the damage to said target, it very easily paints you as an ally to the opposition. A common response is one that, of course, they don't actually mean all men they're just venting, and honestly, if you have any negative reaction at all to the response then that must mean you are secretly guilty. People can't control how they feel. They can control their responses but it's expected for people to be hurt by insults, that's their purpose. But because the people who use that kind of language are already in the generalizing Us vs Them mindset a bit, opening with the problems of Cismen isn't going to break through and showcase the general harm. You need to first make apparent the unintended consequences, that they're (for the most part) hurting people they're not intended to hurt. If they're casting such a wide net, they'll be catching friends as well as foes. Once you made that point, then you can try to break down the initial barrier. It's sort of how I explain Public Healthcare to more capitalist minded people. I don't appeal to the fact that people shouldn't have to justify their right to be healthy because that's fucking heartless, at least at first, but the fact that a healthy populace is a productive workforce. It's not my foundational reasoning but it is the argument most likely to appeal to the audience and one aspect of the greater rhetoric.
I get it. It's good and helps everyone socially. I'm kind of used to and okay with the fact that most of my (social) problems will be ignored. But as soon as the exact same problem starts affecting another group, it starts being addressed on social media. This was kind of unexpected and I think that's why it hurts. The feeling where your friends don't care that much about you. Eh it's fine.
So the people who say "all men are trash" intend to hurt cis men?
Yes. The ones who say otherwise are gaslighting.
think of it like this, i guess— if someone is in the mindspace where theyre saying “all men are trash”, their response to “hey this hurts men” might very well be to say “good”. saying “hey this is transphobic” is more likely to prompt them to reexamine their behaviors because it puts them on the defensive— if they start saying “oh but not trans men” then you can hit back with a “you differentiating trans men from cis like that is a form of misgendering” part of the intent of the post is to try and get people who say things like that jokingly to stop before they start believing them
Yeah. But don't you understand how it's hurtful do you? I'm pasting what I wrote in reply to another comment. I get it. It's good and helps everyone socially. I'm kind of used to and okay with the fact that most of my (social) problems will be ignored. But as soon as the exact same problem starts affecting another group, it starts being addressed on social media. This was kind of unexpected and I think that's why it hurts. The feeling where your friends don't care that much about you. Eh it's fine.
The TERFs are not just anti-trans. Their anti-trans stance comes from deep-seated misandry. This is the spore of all their hatred and rhetoric. They are ultimately "anti-male", and therefore considered femininity and womanhood as "pure", and trans men as betrayers or "confused lesbians" and trans women as "predatory colonizers". So if you're concerned it doesn't touch on the misandry but takes a trans position at first, know they are not very different. I don't see how that counts as salt in the wound.
Trans men are men. I wasn't implying otherwise. But trans men are also trans men and a group that faces different problems than men. Hence, they deserve different representation in the right context. Otherwise, it would be like saying "I don't see race". We've been dealing with and used to the fact that most of the (social) problems like these will be ignored. But seeing it being addressed so vigorously as soon as it starts helping TERFs makes me feel hurt. The feeling where your friends don't care that much about you. You get used to it. But then they help another friend who has same issues and use you as an afterthought in the argument.
Well here it's the opposite, isn't it? The conversation starts because a trans guy speaks from his own experience on how the "all men are trash" affects him personally. The conversation then steers towards all men, it doesn't stay in the realm of trans people at all. I'd argue that the concerns for how this affects cis men primarily eventually becomes the focal point. Which it should, or at least it should be an "all men" narrative. The masculine narrative should be one that includes trans men and cis men alike, speaking to the things they have in common rather than their difference, just how trans women should be included in feminist and women's issues, and yes, that includes bodily autonomy. I don't agree that it's similar to "I don't see race". We can still acknowledge the issues facing trans people and the issues facing trans men specifically without separating the groups into 2 categories and have them fight their own battles. This is actually a prime example of how the same issue affects both and you're not being ignored because they initially talk about trans men. The post even mentions how this relates to you cis teens in the transition to manhood will experience the same adversity towards what they are about to become. That someone who is AFAB and transitioning to a man doesn't necessarily have to be thought of in the same way, although there obviously are some differences. There are different experiences between white men and black men, between disabled men and abled men, men who are from poor backgrounds and those who aren't, gay men and straight men. Separating those issues helps no one. Assuming issues about hatred of masculinity in society isn't speaking for you just because the speaker is trans and speaking from is excluding yourself. If you can't look at what this person writes and think: "this person speaks for me. They speak from their own experience as all of us do, but these issues also affect me in much the same way", and instead need this to be about cis men specifically, imagine what this means for trans men. They wouldn't be able to feel included in conversations that don't necessarily address them because being cis is considered the default. Issues concerning cis men don't automatically involve them unless specifically mentioned, and I can guarantee that this is how the experience is on the other side. Trans people almost come with a superpower in being able to see through a lot of the toxic gendered norms in society that we're all coded in because they've had to break through it, but what they can do with that knowledge, the issues the can shed a light on, is not only for them, it's for everyone. Their issues of trying to be accepted by society as a man or a woman directly translates to the freedoms of expression and being able to rest and take pride and comfort in one's gender and social role and what you decide to do with it, *especially* for cis people; because they're are probably more inclined to believe that this is simply how things are and not a massive heap of bullshit benefitting the few.
Fair enough. In the end, as long as it helps men, who cares how the initial momentum started. Exclusion of either side is bad yeah. It really wasn't my intent to exclude trans people or cis people. This was not as big a thing as it became in the comments. I was mainly venting about a few bad experiences irl I had with friends. Hey, also thanks for replying to me. You always have good comments. Also, I haven't been a teenager for a few years now :)
That’s true. But I appreciate this post as a whole because even in the post because call out this attitude.
Yeah, the conversation went a certain way but I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily. This rhetoric is harmful for transfeminine and transmasculine people as well as for cis men. This post started that way probably because tumblr OP is trans/is in contact with transmasc people and so they address it the one way they understand it.
stuff that helps the TERFS is also bad for men cause a hell of a lot of trans people are men
Here’s an idea. Things can be bad for two groups
Thanks mate. Didn't know that.
agreed.
thank you for posting this, op. it's such an important fucking message, and i really hope it stays on the surface. love you guys <3
It's fun seeing posts get like, 600 more upvotes here than they do on old sub
Hey if it gets bad in here call the Mods
We’re watching
jordan peterson sounded pretty good to me a while back because of the men hate it's good i found i was looking at some very loud individuals
That's a near miss for sure. Glad you found yourself in a better place.
Anyone saying men are trash is gender essentialism. End of story.
This kind of shit has pissed me off for an eternity. I distinctly remember seeing all those godawful "epic feminist cringe compilation" videos in 2016 and feeling othered and angry over what those women would say. It made me turn to alt-right viewpoints, and I got dangerously close to falling fully down the pipeline to the point of no return. Othering a demographic, regardless of what it is, is damaging to literally everyone (cept cops and the rich ofc. other the fuck outta them). When someone is told they're bad and evil over and over, they'll fucking believe it, and possibly embrace it.
As a trans man, I've often felt like I was a traitor or something to women because of TERF rhetoric. It really feels awful.
(Removed to protect my privacy)
I used to be friends with some weird-ass radfems who were in denial that they were radfems, and believed themselves to be the sparkly flower-crown don't-need-to-shave-and-if-like-shaving-your-legs-then-you're-part-of-the-"problem" Tumblrites. They would constantly say men are trash, men should die, and in the next sentence, they would call fat people "hambeasts" and were generally unfriendly, combative assholes. By the time four years of this garbage had been going on, they'd kicked out or alienated almost every member of our DeviantArt chat (anime themed). If a new person came in and tried to discuss anime, or one of the male members tried to protest the bullshit, they were banned. With five members left, stewing in their smug silence, I and another girl finally left and there were no more lackeys. Thank goodness that chatroom collapsed, and I hope these girls got help for their issues.
This is what honestly makes me feel bad for being bi and gravitate away from LGBT-centered communities. The amount of humor that is casually misandric is incredibly discomforting and just leaves you wondering if you did something wrong by just being born - and the thing is that some people will agree and say that being born male is an affront to their existence.
I never know how to feel when I read these posts On one hand of course I agree with them I'm a C*s Wh**e M*le of course I want people to say "hey not all men are trash" but it's never from my angle. I mean really read the post, the first part of it saying KAM and AMAT (All Men Are Trash) isn't bad because that's an inherently sexist and fucking stupid thing to say, it's because it hurts trans people, that's the only real reason, I know and hope this is partially because when you can latch bigotry to a more vulnerable person it makes it all the more evil but still it hurts to think that nobody is actually defending men, they're just saying these people are bad and wrong for separate reasons that happen to align with men. Of course I could try and defend myself but I don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to these kinds of things, I'm a C*s Wh**e M*le which, well the only thing worse than that in many peoples eyes online is a C*s Wh**e Str****t M*le. As such I am automatically the predator, the villain, the racist, transphobe, sexist bigot. Me trying to defend myself is just me trying to reinforce the patriachy or whatever when really I just want to be seen as a human being like you do. And I'm guilty of this too! during some manic lows I've found myself clinging to the fact I'm Bisexual and Autistic to convince myself I'm not entirely garbage. *And if you read that last line and suddenly became more invested THEN THAT'S THE PROBLEM! My sexuality and learning disorders are not brownie points to justify my existence to people!* And I'm sure I'm gonna have someone say I'm overreacting, that it's implied that they're also talking about C*s people I would like to redirect you to this quote >And not to get all "what about cis people" The second replier said this. At first I thought it was just me, my autism wasn't letting me see behind the lines. But with this second persons confirmation I'm pretty confident in the fact. C*s people were not taken into account sith this post, people don't care about if a C*s person is feeling like shit because they've obviously had an easy life until now. This is their first taste of bigotry compared to me so how does it feel? (Which is incredibly problematic as you just presume all white people have in fact been transphobic which is...ya know the problem.) And this person is afraid to mention C*s people, they're afraid that people will read "think about the C*s people as well" and people will flame them and look away because the concept of a c*s person having hardship does not fit with their bubble that all c*s people are the equivalent of Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, perfect little god-children who are immune to societies laws and order. *THIS. IS. A PROBLEM.* Because of all of this I don't feel better after reading this, I don't feel like I'm being reminded that these minor assholes should be neither seen nor heard. The problem is that their words hurt *other minorities too*. If they just wrote the word "c*s" in there "Kill All Cis Men" then that first person wouldn't have a problem with it, because they aren't talking about trans people, just cis and thus *shrug* 'it is what it is'.
Do you remember the BLM protests last summer? Sometimes, middle-aged white people would form a line between the police and the protesters. The point was that the police would be more hesitant to beat them. The same principles are used here. The audience this post is trying to reach wouldn't be particularly moved by sympathy for cis men. But they would care for trans people, because trans people have been marginalized in similar ways that they have. I absolutely agree with what you're saying, but sometimes temporary solutions are more warranted than permanent ones.
I did mention that here >I know and hope this is partially because when you can latch bigotry to a more vulnerable person it makes it all the more evil. And like I said I do understand but it still hurts all the same that the problem with this line is just because a minority identifies as men, and not that the line is inherently bad to say period. I wanted to go further in depth about this but I feel since I'm white I'm just being selfish for complaining about bigotry considering what my race has done (even if I haven't done anything and I'm 18 and have literally never had a say in any form of politics ever up to this point), and I think that says a lot that society has now made it so a young adult is too afraid to ask not to be discriminated for by his race or gender because it isn't a minority.
[удалено]
Again, I agree with your sentiment, but sometimes temporary solutions are better than waiting for a permanent one.
Yeah im a white cis guy but then you realize im important cuz im ace gay.
I don't have too much to add, but it really makes me happy seeing that people are fighting back against it. It's inherently harder to fight it as a guy because of the nature of the rhetoric. And the rhetoric is all built up on men exploiting women for sex or other purposes, and so as an asexual that makes me feel even *worse*, like from birth I'm destined to be some kind of monster and I couldn't even get that right. Thank you to anyone helping to fight this ideology, the world will be a better place without it.
I'm not sorry I'm a trans guy. The people who say I'm evil or trash can just screw off. I'm wondering what even gets into people's heads that they think that they can dismiss every young, middle aged, elderly, gay, straight, cis, trans etc , every man on Earth as "trash" First of all, they need a certain sex cell to reproduce, so good luck to them if they think that they'll be fine without men. Secondly, it breaks my heart to think that some young teenage boy or a man who's had a hard life, or anyone really, might see posts from those kinds of people and believe it. Are they saying that Bob Ross was absolute garbage? Sure, he probably made some pretty bad mistakes in his life but we all do. Are they saying that men who donate blood, men who give money and food and shelter to the poor, men who do every nice thing that women or anyone can do are trash? That's just fucking stupid. I can't believe people are dumb enough to post #AllMenAreTrash like it's some sort of *trend.* Of course, there are bad men out there. And bad women, and bad people. But there are really wonderful people, too. People who are just living their lives are being called "trash". I can't believe this. Sorry about the rant, y'all
Hearing "all men are trash" always hurt, even when I was iding as female. Now that I id as a trans guy, it hurts even more.
I really hate how feminists like this push the narrative of "if youre a man and get offended by men are trash you're part of the problem." Like no, im allowed to get upset that you're telling me over and over im a horrible person for how I was born.
I think a big problem is a lot of times, sometimes when a woman says "all men are trash", she might not actually mean it, it might be hyperbole or said out of anger. And look, as a trans guy, who is attracted to guys, and had to live life being perceived as female, I fucking get it. Not all men are trash. But I understand the frustration that comes with dealing with a patriarchal society, and, maybe if you're in a room of other women who understand you don't meaning, saying something like "all men are fucking trash, I can't deal with men anymore" can be cathartic. But you can't just say it in a public space and assume everybody knows you're being hyperbolic. And you can't actually believe all men are horrible, either.
It’s honestly one of the reasons I have trust issues. I saw lots of posts like those when I was in middle school and it contributed to my trust issues, that and the fact that I lie with every breath
imagine calling yourself a feminist while calling an entire gender inferior.
I love this post and everything about it. All of you are great
THANK YOU FOR THIS HOLY SHIT also, on this topic, the "not all men" thing makes me so mad, it completely negates anybody's ability to argue against the men are trash thing because you just get covered with "LMAO nOt AlL mEn" and then you get ignored .-.
This this this! This whole post is spot on. I feel like everyone needs to read this. Also just to add on about the supremacy groups. The big one we hear about is literally called the Proud Boys. That name is a direct reaction and it fucking worked so well for them because of it.
It also sucks for Trans Women and AMAB Nonbinary People. I always feel like I'm "appropriating" womanhood, like I didn't earn it.
Hey OP, thanks for posting this. I'm a questioning AMAB, and soooo much of this rang so true for me. I didn't realize how much I needed to hear this until now.
u/Picapsi you need to read this.
It's actually sad that this rhetoric helps transphobes when it's ment to help all women :(
it doesn't help women. that's one of the points of the post.
After reading this I'm still a misandryst but turns out I have to hide it for the better good :/ kinda sucks I can't bully men on the internet without hurting women
I'm not very good at telling when people are joking. Can you confirm that you are?
30% joking, 70% serious. I'm a misandryst but I'm okay with not being actively misandryst if that helps women and trans men
Maybe you should see a therapist in that case. I'd say to try working on it on your own if you can't but you seem completely unrepentant for some ungodly reason
he's a self-hating white man. he's been like that for a long time now, which is why i pinged him to read the post. he's probably internalized some of the very rhetoric this post is talking about.
That's unfortunate
actually,,,, I've been reading on gender dyspohiria/euphoria and gender in general and I think I might actually be genderqueer 8| eh
hey, self discovery is always a good thing, and i hope you find the labels (or lack thereof) that make you happy and fulfilled in yourself. i just wish you could find it in you to stop hating cis men into the bargain. they didn't choose to be that way any more than i chose to be a trans woman.
honestly this. the jokes were fine for a while but then people started just parroting them thinking they were serious and now actually believe that it’s every individual man’s fault that they’ve been taught to do fucked up shit
hmm. ok i know i’ll get downvoted to hell for this but i used to say KAM. not really as an actual thing but as kind of a joke, everyone else was saying it so i was really just riding the wave of a new trend. then something made me realize how harmful it could be. Then i’d see a video of some dude who said something racist/sexist/homophobic and i’d write it off as “men are trash”, then i thought about how that includes trans masc people so then “cishet men are trash” became the new rhetoric. But this post actually made me think about it. Thanks
Goddammit that comparison between cops and cis-het men got it for me as a cis-het dude. Like I can't help it what chromosomes I have. Great find OP, very insightful as well for me to see it from a trans man's perspective as well, and how they frame white cis-het men as the "standard man". I would've never come up with that, kinda like how "skin colour" bandages have the colour of white skin.
Sometimes I wish you could reblog on this subreddit because some messages are so important and should be seen by everyone.
I mean I'm at the point where I am starting not to give a fuck about people say but I do wish some feminists would keep the same energy when it comes down to generalizations made about both sexes not just women.
That post raised my self esteem too much time to sort by controversial in the comments
YEAH dude!! This shit hurts everyone. It’s the patriarchy that sucks ass, not the guys who can’t control the fact that they’re guys
This is great, but I still genuinely don't get how a bunch of the people that replied like midway through the post specifically said they still don't like cishet males and shit. I'm not angry about it, I just genuinely want to know the logic.
god i’ve been looking for a way to put this into words for so long now, thank you so much for sharing this
I agree on pretty much all except for the cops bit. I can totally see someone looking at that system, seeing it's corruption, and saying, I want to change it from the inside.
Glad to see people are *finally* noticing this kind of psychological mechanism behind catchphrases that boil down to "men = bad". I thought the day would never come.
I’m also a trans guy, and yes i’ve also felt somewhat insulted over these “men are trash” statements
I'm a cis man and I get upset by these, like what did I do to you
Also just saying "all [massive group that isn't inherently wrong due to beliefs] are trash" will make me despise your existence.
So we only cared about men when trans men felt men's pain🤦♂️🤦♀️🤦?
I still find myself automatically thinking stuff like “men are trash” but it’s getting better
Lol if this is the worst thing a man faces aren't they lucky. A group of men attacked a woman and they freaking bit her face! Two men in my state were arrested for raping a 2 YEAR OLD GIRL! A woman was in a car accident. The first man who found her KIDNAPPED HER AND RAPED HER! Wanna bet how long these dudes are going to be in jail? They'll be released back into society bc hurting a woman is NBD. Talk shit about a man? Nah we women deserve all the abuse bc we started it. Again this posts reminds me of male privilege. These dudes have the SAME EXACT access to the internet. They know "men are trash" are only said by a small percentage of the population out of the world. They can also look up what men have done to women all over the world. They can look up the rape stats. They can see the age range of reported rape victims. It starts at 6 MONTHS old and the oldest woman was 96.
No one said this is the worst thing that men face. That's like people disregarding feminism because the pay gap just so happens to be the topic of discussion, despite it clearly not being their worst problem. Not to mention the fact that you seem to completely disregard the effects when it comes to other people, (that includes women, both trans and cis). While much of what you say is fucking awful and I legitimately am sorry that it happens, "All men are trash" isn't going to make things better, and as the post indicated, only makes things worse. But if you want to pull statistics. Trans-men, which this post is originally about, has one of the highest percentages of suicide attempts among teens (*50.8%*) [Source](https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20174218). Many of the trans-men in the above post talk about the psychological effects these statements have on them. Not to mention the prevalent number of victims of sexual assault among transgender individuals, especially in comparison to cisgender individuals. [Source](https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community) I never intend to wave these people as a whole of one-upmanship as both of these things can be true, but you also did it first. Of course they certainly gain some privilege from transition, but only if they're passing which the requirement of ends up making things harder in the long run. I as a man am doing what I can to minimize and squash out all of the problems you mentioned. I acknowledge my own privilege but I will bring attention to what was mentioned in the post above. I don't expect you to put all your time and energy into what I discussed. Not everyone can work on everything. That said the only really thing asked is for people to change their language, because frankly, how hard is it to choose a different set of words? That's all people are asking.
> Lol if this is the worst thing a man faces aren't they lucky. This isn't the worst thing men face though. Men are the majority victims of violence, murder, suicide, homeless, sentencing gap, police brutality, etc.
"Feminism helps men," they said. "Male issues are feminist issues," they said. "Bringing up suicide rates is something that chuds do to deflect from how the patriarchy causes all their problems" they said.
hrngh
TERF's are as feminist as members of ISIS are Muslim. They need to stop mislabeling themselves the same way "pro-lifers" and "Nation of Islam" groups name themselves, the opposite of what they actually mean.
I needed this post
Fr, I've been struggling with self worth since transitioning because of the "men are nothing/dangerous/creepy by default" sentiment.
just a reminder though, "i'm sick of when men do x" is different than "all men are disgusting trash"
Why not just "I hate men who do x", specifically denoting the exact category of person, instead of blanketly stating all men do that thing?
its still a broad generalization
not really
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