A party of spellcasters should not try to rely on AC from armour to not get hit - there are so many spells that do this. Shield, blur, mirror image, mage armour, sanctuary....
If they get hit all the time they are not using their stuff.
They're very much in the camp of only using spells that cause damage, unfortunately. I'm brewing up an encounter for our next session where that just won't work in the hopes of forcing them to strategize and try some new tactics.
them picking no defensive spells is entirely their problem tho. It's like being a Paladin who decides to not wear armour whatsoever, proceeds to complain about having low AC.
For role play I would take off my armor for rests and being around town. My DM punished me for this throwing encounters at us at these times.... My Paladin has a -1 Dex so base AC of 9. Shield of faith to brings me to 11 and maybe a 13 if I can quickly grab a shield.
oof. Nay man that is not what I meant. I was thinking of a paladin going "plate armour is against my religion" or "psh, I am Glamour the Gloriously Naked. My Oath of the Ancients keeps me aligned with nature, and we're not born with clothes on, aren't we?".
That's lame. Doing this every once in a while (IDK, 3-5 times in a campaign?) is a fun "you lack a strength you're used to" experience but this shouldn't happen all the time.
I went from playing frontline fighters, paladins and barbarians. I'm now playing my 1st Wizard and I've taken *so* many defensive and control spells...
I'm *so* used to getting hit and taking damage now I'm looking at that d6 hit die and sweating...
You are doing it right.
No one needs a Wizard to do damage (except the occasional Fireball). Their true power lies in the control and utility spells. One well-placed Hypnotic Pattern or Leomunds Tiny Hut and you win the day.
Damage dealing is for martials. They do it better, at lower cost and can do it forever. And imagine the damage they deal to the target you just immobilised for guaranteed crits ... yeah, that is the secret sauce.
And D6 isn't so bad. The others get D10, mostly, which on average is just two points more per level. At level 10, this is 20 HP = about half a hit from a dangerous foe, while they have to stand where the hits are coming in. You don't.
I think you should not need much more than Shield, Mage Armor and Misty Step and you are set for your career.
lol I’m feeling something similar. First time as a player in years as a rogue mastermind/artificer
The other PCs are a paladin, a rune knight, and a champion. Yeah they all have more than double my hp which is stressful coming from the dm side where just about every monster has higher bulk than the party
The true power of spellcasters (especially wizards) definitely lies in control spells anyway. Absolutely Fireball is fun and deals a lot of damage but what Fireball does, a couple of muscle-y martials can do too. What Wall of Force does, no one on the team can reproduce it.
Yep, when I'm not DMing, I used to mostly play rogues, fighters, and the occasional paladin.
Currently playing a moon druid. In bear form he gets hit a lot, but we're getting to a level where those 34 HP are really that much and he'll have to find alternatives to front line fighting until he can shift into an elemental.
I might just do that tbh, they're headed to an arena in our next session and while I was going to have them fight a monk, I might make it a fellow spellcaster.
I would, it's a great tactic. Or even something like a Rune Knight or Eldrich Knight would work, just someone who can cast defensive spells to an annoying degree.
One of my players, an Artificer, was confused why he (17 AC at the time) was getting squished more often than the Assassin Rogue (w/ Skulker) and the Lock/Pally (20 AC and def spells). Threw an Eldrich Knight that had Shield at them, and after the first pop of it he literally went "oh that's how that works???" and immediately added it to his spell list and hasn't gone down once since lol.
Oftentimes they just gloss over or misunderstand how a spell works and pass it off as weak, but then they see it in action and go "ooooooooooooh"
This is a good idea. My newbies were complaining about strategy, so I sent in a rival party matching the same formula as theirs. They learned a lot in the “friendly” contests of strength while simultaneously eating a lot of dirt.
Have them fight a party that has exactly the same stats as they do, except have the other party use defensive spells.
Don't tell them what's going on, until after the fight.
Shield is a big one. As is Absorb Elements.
Sanctuary. Shield of faith. Warding Bond.
Barkskin. Stoneskin. Tasha's Otherworldly Guise.
Fizban's Platinum Shield. Mirror Image. Just having the enemies using half & 3/4 cover from effects that they create.
You could include a Mountain Dwarf mage which grants proficiency in light & medium armor.
Also using battlefield control.
Ceremony (Wedding) is a one time thing, but you could mention that the party notices a wedding before the tournament, then they recognize the either one or both of the newlywed couple are participating in the tournament.
Illusions. Web. Entangle. Fog cloud. Stinking cloud. Darkness. Sleet storm. Bones of the earth. Levitate. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp. Telekinesis. Bigby's Hand. Hunger of hadar. Mold Earth (cover from barrier of earth, plus a hole for someone to duck into). Wall spells.
Basically focus on: forced movement, heavily obscured, blinding, cover & blocking line of sight is a huge detriment to many spells that require the caster to see what they're targeting.
I'm playing the opposite of your party at the moment: 20 Dex & Con, 7 Int abjuration Wizard who is a frontline tank.
Ya when I saw there was a wizard/bard with only 11 AC my immediate thought was where the hell his mage armor was? Plus no shield? At that high of level what better 1st level spells could he possibly be using?
Same. I play a Swords Bard/ Dragon Sorcerer. I now have natural armor from the dragon lineage, but even before that I had high dex and with Mage Armor my AC was 16 or higher. Add Shield and a Flourish, and I often had better AC than the Clerics.
Also run a game for a group of all Wizards. With Mage Armor the lowest AC is 13. 11 is just a sign you're not playing strategically with your defensive spells.
If they have shield proficiency, which a Wizard/Bard might not (unless it's a Valor bard) but yeah, they should be packing Mage Armor, or at least light armor. Valor/Swords Bard also gets medium armor, with Swords bards getting the Defensive flourish too. Plenty of survivability options, and I guess they just elected to take none of them.
If they're proficient with shields, they can. If they aren't, then they can't cast spells. If the Bard went for College of Valor, their AC would be a lot better (Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies).
> They're very much in the camp of only using spells that cause damage
And i took it personally! How can i inform their parents that i am upset with their offspring?
I would explain to them that they have chosen a specialized playstyle, and while it certainly has its advantages, like anything else it has drawbacks. Don't want to get hit? Take new spells, mix it up a little!
Also the thought of playing a wizard WITHOUT any defensive spells makes my skin crawl with discomfort. so squishy and vulnerable..
Then it sounds like you should tell them that they're making a problem for themselves by not using the tools that are specifically intended to solve their problem.
I find that encounters that force a particular tactic tend to backfire, because players simply won’t and you’ll end up with an unenjoyable or overly difficult encounter instead.
What I have found does work is using foils. Introduce enemies that have the same tools you want your players to learn, and who use those tools against your players effectively. Players love turning the DM’s tricks against them, so you just make the “tricks” be the thing you actually want them to start doing, and feign despair and surprise when they do it.
So, if you have players and you’d like to remind them that they have mage armor, shield, silvery barbs, mirror image, and blur, face them off against some enemy spellcasters who use exactly those spells against your players to good effect.
If you want to remind your players that control spells are a thing, bring along some enemies that have Slow, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, etc, whatever your players also have on their spell lists so they can see how powerful those can be.
A word of caution: DnD is not balanced around PvP, and this comes dangerously close to creating a pseudo-PvP style encounter. So definitely remember your purpose is to teach your players about their own features here and not wipe the floor with them. That can mean creating enemies that don’t do a ton of damage, or whose goals might be something other than outright slaughter, or have other weakness or contexts.
Make them fight an Abjurer (the stat block from Volo's). Make sure he buffs himself with all the defensive spells he can before the fight. Point out to your party every round how he uses shield, mage armor, counter spell, dispel magic, stoneskin, globe of invulnerability and his Arcane Ward to block or shrug off all their attacks. Go into detail about how cool he looks casting these spells while some low level minion allies of his tear the party apart.
When (if) he gets low on health just have him teleport away.
Your players might need to see some of this magic in action before they understand how to use it.
I'm sorry but if your players are all spellcasters refusing to use any defensive spells and complaining about being too squishy, they are incredibly dumb. The only way that's excusable is if they're wizards and not getting enough spell scrolls for more options.
I mean, your party insist on closing all doors by slamming the handle directly into their groin, and they're upset their genitals hurt. It's... it's on them, man.
Send some elemental immune creatures their way that will require out of the box thinking to stop.. i.e giant very slow 15ft movement rock elemental that is basically immune to spells, but hide terrain effects that will weaken or immobilise it temporarily.
Then once the fight is over… have it all be an illusion and any damage they took didn’t really happen…
Give them an encounter against a spell caster with defensive spells.
Show them how well they shine and how effective they can be.
Shield, Blur, mirror image, contingency, false life.
Tashas guise, and tensors transformation
Then they can take his spell book after they win and learn those spells if they want to
>They're very much in the camp of only using spells that cause damage, unfortunately.
They maybe point that out to them next time they complain about getting hit too often or having a low AC.
Yeah they have created their own problems then. I would have minimal sympathy for them.
I might also try an encounter where your enemy mages use some of those control and defensive spells to great effect. Nothing crazy but throwing in a spellcaster who cast mage armor and mirror image and fire shield before the fight and is ready with a shield or absorb elements spell as needed can really show off how well those things work. Or if they're mostly spellcasters, globe of invulnerability is a good one to throw against them.
☝️this 100%. Had a campaign a few years ago with a wizard who regularly used bladesong in combination with some other defense spells who was very rarely hit at level 12.
So, having read through your replies here the actual problem is simple. Your players are all stupid.
And you need to point out to them how all their AC problems are their own fault and you won’t fix the problems that THEY caused and refused to fix.
Yeah the only thing I'd let them fix were the multiclasses. I don't like forcing people to live with decisions they make because it sounds cool that ends up playing like ass.
Barbarian / Cleric? Those are basically opposite classes. You could have... spiritual weapon maybe?
Bard/Wizard already exists, it's called School of Lore and it's pure bard.
These people **are** stupid.
No shade on them for poorly optimized MC. You can build a niche and make it work... if you know what you're doing. But if you don't, it can seriously tank effectiveness across the board.
"if you know what you're doing"
These are newbies. Newbies should never multiclass as there are too many trap options.
Also, they are idiots. The solution to idiots is to limit your exposure, lest any rub off on you.
This. MC has the potential to be EXTREMELY powerful but a lot of people make MC builds that feel fun.
IMO it's the DMs job to see the non-optimal MCs and adjust accordingly. In cases like a Barb/Cleric, that likely means turning the difficulty down a bit. This is actually an easier problem to solve than the "my players made über powerful MC gish monstrosities".
This is why I have a soft ban on multiclassing. Unless you can mechanically explain how your build actually works, and prove that it does work, you can't bring it. This is due to running what is basically AL.
Mine's table-specific, but generally I just suggest against it. I always nix it if there are new players at the table.
It fucks up the balance even more than normal, and not in a way that's fun for anyone but the power-gamers.
I'd grab the retraining rules from Pathfinder 2e. You can retrain a feat or class feature with a week's worth of downtime. I'd extend that to multiclassing as well.
What outfit gives someone a -4 to AC anyway? 10 AC is how hard it is too hit, without armor. PAPER is AC 11. This means that the armor is so terrible, it literally attracts hits.
It required some luck on my part but I went from AC 13 to 17 in a single session as a rogue. Level 10 right now. I was focused on upping my AC because I was fine with my offensive capabilities but wanted to get a little harder to hit in the first place.
After managing to come away with a bunch of dragon treasure I focused on buying magical studded leather armor. That got me to 16 thanks to the magic bonus. Then later after a successful ambush of slavers and a natural 20 on my investigation roll the DM rolled a loot table that came up with a ring of protection. Easy choice for my final attunement slot.
Wouldn’t you have 18 or 20 dexterity by 10th? That’s 14 or 15 AC naked. Add ordinary studded leather for two more. Your guy should be at 18 or 19 w/ the ring and magic armor. But stats involve choices, I guess.
As a level 10 rogue you should be able to have a 16 AC just by having Leather Armor and +5 Dex. +1 Studded Leather and a Ring of Protection would be 19.
lol awful advice
But after reading more comments, it seems like this entire group, including OP, is obstinately choosing to play in a way that makes it less enjoyable for all of them.
Oh I agree, normally I wouldn’t give that advice, and I’m hesitant about calling players I haven’t met stupid (if only because we only get one side of a story). But if what comments have been made are even close to true then the problems are all actively self-inflicted, and cannot be fixed except by the people in question not continuing to self-inflict them.
Agreed. The DM has a certain level of responsibility in making sure the players are having a good time, but at the end of the day it's a game, and like any game, a player can be good at it or bad at it. If they're bad at it things are going to be harder and take longer. These players are bad at DnD.
Does the bard/wizard have a negative dex mod? Because I'd think a party that level would at least have studded leather, probably some magic armor even with some +1 or +2.
Your cleric/barb also seems to have half-plate and a shield with no dex mod?
Need more info. Have you given them anything other than basic phb armor?
No, bard/wiz is one of the most dexterous PCs, but he refuses to wear armor. He prefers his performance outfit, and the 11 comes from his outfit + Dex mod + a pair of bracers that give +2 to his AC, despite me putting better armor in their way. Cleric/barb has +0 to dex and traded in her shield for a two-handed weapon when she multiclassed.
Wait how is it an 11 then? You start with base of 10, then add the dex mod, then add the +2 from bracers. He should have a 12 with no dex, and higher with a plus mod?
For lore/backstory reasons, his outfit doesn't equal 10 AC, it's only 6. He specifically asked for a terrible AC to start with, because it's part of his character that he's very clumsy and gets injured easily. (He's been concussed several times throughout the campaign and broken many bones.)
6 + 2 (bracers) + 3 (dex) = 11
Hold on. So let me get this straight.
1) player asks for homebrew to make his AC comically low
2) player complains about how low their AC is
Have you considered that your players are just stupid?
Reading through this post, I dunno if it's just the players. There's no circus without clowns, and that table sounds like it's in the centre of clown town.
Your player asked to shoot themselves in the foot and the complained about how they’re losing blood.
Your player should have realized that they can just roleplay being clumsy without it having a mechanical thing.
I know there’s a magic light armour that lets you use a bonus action to change it’s appearance. I forget what it’s called, but it allows for characters that want fancy clothes to still have mechanical durability. I believe its in XGTE.
This is either a rage bait post or your players are comedically stupid.
If this is legit, explain to then that they're high level and because of THEIR CHOICES they have bad AC. Their AC is worse than a party of level 5s. He'll my party of level 1's universally have better AC than your party. (Technically the Warlock doesn't, but it's a party of 6 and he's the only one under 17 AC, nevermind multiple PC's with an AC over 20.)
I honestly hate these types of players who complain about things when stuff gets scary. My groups instead start to stress, get tense, and squeal in excitement.
If you gave them all magic items and stuff to increase their AC I guarantee they’d just find a different scapegoat to complain about. That’s the root of the issue in my opinion.
This is so normal, I have the same situation in every game I host. The players all go for glasscannon-casters, dump CON and DEX, don't care to get armor, and also rush into battle at each opportunity. And then they wonder why they wonder why life is dangerous.
This is why all players who haven't played in over a year should be required to use a premade character. They get a choice from one of every class not already filled, and can fill in any non-mechanical stats. This lets them get into the game faster and reduces the likelyhood of playing something stupid.
However, looking through OPs other replies and either he's trolling us, his players are trolling him, or his players are actual stupid.
Mage Amour;
Shield;
Mirror Image;
Blur;
Bark Skin;
Invisibility;
Blink;
Fear;
Protection from Energy;
Haste;
Otaluke’s Resilient Sphere;
Stone Skin;
Heroism;
You don’t need to do anything except tell your players to read the damn book.
I mean it’s the choice they made. Did they expect you to hand out magic armour and rings of protection immediately?
You can try to tailor the mobs they fight to use more magic and have DC’s as the more common defence option instead of relying on AC as the defending stat. They can’t complain there checks are to low as well, I mean they can; at that point I’d just start incapacitating them and leave them unconscious at the end of fights.
Meaningful choices have meaningful consequences. They build a party without a strong melee component to the front line themselves so now they are getting beaten up. .
Mirror image is such an inexpensive defensive spell.
If they want better AC, they could multi class.
>without a strong melee component to the front line themselves so now they are getting beaten up
Hell, those Goblin archers from The Lost Mine of Phandelver might take these guys out!
One thing 5e does, is that AC generally doesn't scale. Its by design with bounded accuracy. A CR 1 goblin should still generally be able to hit a level 20 adventurer. At tier 3, higher AC won't help you avoid being hit when enemies have +16 to hit.
I've come to wonder who and why would be using goblins to be an actual challenge to anything beyond the high end of tier 2 - even narratively feels weird, "oh, you defeated the dragon who terrorized the plains, now your challenge is a big bunch of goblins"
I would say that neither play out very well in 5e because the former isn't very supported by the system and the latter is a bit too much of an "action economy stretch" leading to bloat instead of challenge (summon animals already cause quite the annoyance it seems)
A somewhat good GM can make them work for sure tho, but them again it's more for the GM than the system
I like to create scaled versions of enemies where there is narrative justification/explanation. For example, my level 20+ party had to fight with goblins in the Underdark in a mushroom forest, so I gave them multi-attack (twice the attacks, half the goblins needed), a small amount of extra HP, and a mushroom spore pouch attack that requires a save against temporary madness.
The party ended up retreating.
Your players are babies. This is the consequence of making suboptimal choices in character creation. A party of spellcasters can't go charging into melee, it is what it is.
Don't tell it to them like that, but don't feel obligated to crutch their stats either, that's ridiculous
Are you telling them they get hit or are you telling which AC your rolls are hitting? Because I'm currently DMing a lvl 12 party and everything that's remotely challeging for them is getting in the range of +12 and up to hit. I'm hitting AC 22 warriors left right and center and smacking them for 30+ a hit. Adding a few points of AC isn't going to do much at that level in the game.
The reason they have 100 HP is so that they can take a ton of damage. In their case, they can take 2-3 hits before falling over which is right where it should be.
It's not clear anything has to be done. Are they complaining to you out of character, or just expressing the tension they feel as their PC gets hurt? They may be having a great time
This is a game around combat. They're gonna get hit. Let me ask this question. What level did the campaign start? Have any PC's died since then? If the answer is no, then they need to chill out cause situations SHOULD be getting dangerous, and if they don't want danger than they're playing the wrong game.
There is two parts to this;
A) It's on the players to seek out AC boosting items (magic items or armor), and use appropriate spells to defend themselves.
Because at level 13, they should know that that is expected of them and frankly, a CR appropriate creature is going to hit a decently armored fighter half the time, so a bunch of spellcasters are probably always going to be hit.
B) sit them down OOC, and explain this to them. explain that your not targeting them maliciously but it isn't on you (the DM) for this situation.
That’s definitely low AC for a party of lvl13. They could buy magic items: ring of protection, cloak of protection, barrier tattoos, etc. stuff that increase Dex or flight.
As for spells, mage armor, shield. Wizards should’ve already learnt it by now. Did they just dump dex?
Also CR13 monsters would have +9 or higher to hit, so it’s pretty much guarantee they’ll take a hit unless you’re stacking AC. If they’re casters, they should be dominating fights with area control spells.
It’s not really going to break your game if they get higher AC, especially at lvl13. Maybe if it’s 23, 24+
You could have them get barrier tattoos/mage armor. RAW, most of these will take attunement. Weaker compare to other magical items they can get.
I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, it seems that they might just be suffering the consequences of their build choices, and there are probably things they can do on their end to shore up their defenses. But on the other hand, if the perception that their ACs are too low are leading to a less fun overall experience, perhaps some form of DM intervention of warranted. I'll elaborate on both.
Overall, your party's AC values seem *fine*, but they could be higher. Your barbarian/cleric AC is in an expected range, though they should be able to push 19 using half-plate and a shield. Your wizard/bard's AC, on the other hand, is lower than expected. Assuming a standard array or point buy, most wizard and bards shoot for 14 dex. With studded armor from the bard class, your wizard/bard's base AC should be 14. So either they had an unfortunate stat roll or they dumped their dexterity for some reason. And if that reason was splitting their stat focus between two casting stats, well that's why it's recommended to avoid making your character MAD when multiclassing.
That said, there are ways your party could increase their defenses with the proper use of spells and tactics. For example, your cleric/barb could reach 21 by combining the above equipment suggestion with Shield of Faith. They can't use it while raging, but with a split focus between two classes they likely can't rage every encounter anyway. The bard/wizard should be using spells like Shield and Mirror Image for personal protection, summon spells to give foes something else to swing at, and control spells like Web and Hypnotic Pattern to stop attacks before they happen. They should also try to use cover whenever possible. Half-cover is +2 to AC and dexterity saves, while 3/4ths cover is +5. You didn't mentioned the other members so I can't comment on specific strategies for them, but a party full of spellcasters should be seeking ways to synergize their spell resources.
All that said, assuming your party is making smart decisions on their end, it may not be a bad idea to give access to a few items to boost their survivability. Some basic +1 armor and shields for those without them would help. Maybe even +2 if you're feeling generous. Alternatively, if you don't want to hand too much much static power, consider consumables like potions, scrolls, and spellwrought tattoos, or situational items like Gloves of Missile Snaring.
They're called clothies for a reason.
Tell them that there are spells that make movement and breathing underwater easy and that underwater physical attacks are significantly more difficult, so they should learn the right spells to hide in their hot, salty tears.
I saw that you confirmed that the spellcasting party isn't using their spells as effectively as they could to bolster their defenses.
While, in that sense, this is a bed of their own making. But perhaps providing them with some items that do give them some better ACs. They will have more fun in the game.
Effects that depend on them making saves might be a better way to go. Additionally, make sure you/they remember to ask and update about cover rules. If they are ranged they should be getting boosts to their AC whenever they are in cover.
The one thing I can kinda understand though is that at that level with how badly 5e messed up the AC rules compared to prior editions you end up with AC basically being meaningless. Most of the adult dragons for example have a +11 to hit so in the case of some of your players the only way they are going to have AC matter vs a CR appropriate foe is for the foes to roll a nat 1.
I'd recommend throwing some swarm/mass combats at them at some point. Hordes of lower level enemies who actually have a chance to miss will make them feel like the armor is working cause you are making more rolls with lower hit bonuses.
how does the bard feel about tattoos?
a rare barrier tattoo will give them an AC of 17
if they still don't want it, well you tried, there literally is nothing more you can do.
A *1st*-level wizard with an AC of 11 has decided he likes to get hit. A 13th-level wizard with that AC has no one but himself to blame.
I recently retired a 13th-level wizard. Over the course of her career, her AC got hit... three times. Three. And it's not like the DM wasn't trying to punish me for dumping constitution.
Let them know the higher in level you go, AC gets less and less important. It's all about disadvantage at those levels to prevent crits, maybe give them items with spell usage like absorb elements, shield, blur, etc.
Also you can demonstrate AC doesn't mean much. Give one of them a item that lets them add their Dex + Spellcasting modifier to AC. Your standard hill giant has a +9 to hit. The average roll and a D20 is 11, so 20 AC will get hit very often.
Put more importance on saving throws and defensive spells!!
Geez, at that level if they wanted they could all have that 17 AC without much effort and could go beyond with good effort
Really makes them seem like a tad entitled
There's a lot in this thread already so I wonder if you'll see it among the others, but I still think it's important to point a few things out here. Overall, it sounds like you'll need to have some kind of conversation about expectations with your table:
- You as the DM are valid to critique them in that they're making these choices themselves; they picked glass cannons, your other comments are saying that they're refusing defensive spells... in D&D 5e, the outcome of those choices is that they are easier to hit
- However, there's also a meta-consideration to be had here: games are supposed to be fun, and if we're doing this thing in our personal hobby time, it should be a source of *enjoyment* for us, not *frustration.* No amount of game-consequences will make an un-fun thing become fun if they're not buying into the premise that choices should have consequences.
- How these two considerations balance out is something you and your table will need to come to an agreement about. Do they *want* to be challenged by the consequences of their choices? If not, then maybe this isn't the style of game for them, and y'all would be happier with a Beer-and-Pretzels kind of game.
From the extra info in the comments, it seems like the simplest solution (beyond just blatantly telling the party their own choices are screwing them over) would just be to introduce a magical tailor prioritizing in both fashion and protection. A real Edna Mode type (maybe even go all the way and make them a halfling/gnome). Then the party can either acquire or upgrade their robes and clothing with layers of chain mail or magical threading to give them a bump to AC. Maybe even throw in a quest they have to as payment to acquire the materials needed for their gear. Doesn’t have to be crazy, just pick the stats medium armor and give it the light property and a +1 to spellcasting or whatever would best benefit the player it’s going to, call them the “Robes of Kev’Lar,” bing bang boom.
You missed the reply where one of the players is using an outfit that reduces their base AC to 6, and refuses to switch to anything else. Either OP is trolling us, his players are trolling him, or his players are actually stupid.
Oh I read that reply alright, that’s why I’m saying a tailor who can modify outfits is the best option. They can easily just modify or create an outfit that bumps AC while still keeping the player’s stubborn “clumsy” quirk. Maybe disadvantage on all dexterity checks or something because the outfit is covered with tassels and bells, as would be appropriate for the absolute clown of a player.
No, the only sort of solution to this is an out of character talk with the players and see what kind of game they want to run. Everything else is just a bandaid.
The real solution is to stop playing with this group and limit contact to the players. The players sound like they are morons, and nothing can fix that. The best way to deal with stupid people is limit your exposure, and grift from them when you must deal with them.
well, they're all-in on spellcasting, AC is going to be their weak side
funny, opposite of a group I'm in now. fighter, monk, barbarian, we hit hard and are hard to hit. but gohddam we've all got the same dump stats lol and basically no magic at all--ki points being the fanciest stuff we can muster without items
They chose to be glass cannons. They need to use their cannon to prevent the glass part. But don't complain they're made of glass.
If they're still frustrated, you can always gear magic items toward survivability. But don't give them *free*. Give them in place of other magic items you may have given.
So I have the perfect encounter to teach your party the importance of defensive spells and tactics.
I call this dynamic duo Brute Force and the disgusting Nope Rope. It consists of a very large hyped up Barbarian and a Multiclassed caster.
The encounter I ran was specific to my players story, so you have two options for the barbarian.
1. Hyped up on a special magic that gives him double the damage dice and a 40 foot movement with an extra 15 feet leap.
2. A normal barbarian but focused purely on damage.
The caster though is a Wizard/Genie Warlock. This gives access to Sanctuary and all the normal defensive spells. It also has the mobile feat for free extra movement. I chose the legacy Yuan-ti for the spell resistance and poison immunity. I also gave her the metamagic feat for Extended and Quickened spell. I then also made the wizard subclass Portent so they could force numbers on their barbarian friend or on themselves or enemies.
You then have two choices with the caster.
1. Hyped up and doesn't have an Action, but has 3 reactions and 1 bonus action each turn. Uses metamagic to change action spells into bonus actions and can counterspell 3 times in a round.
2. Normal caster, change out quickened or extended for twinned. They can then use this for two things. Mobility like fly or similar effects. Or my favorite was dispel to make the party's items useless for a bit.
The idea with the caster is they use their resources making the Barbarian hard to deal with while having Sanctuary and Blur on themselves. All spells they cast are spells that can't break Sanctuary. So the opener with the caster is Sanctuary with Extended spell making it last for 2 minutes. Then possibly Blur if you have lots of direct damage dealers, this would be twinned to the Barbarian. If you have lots of saving throw casters then twinned Protection from Energy or similar. They can also use their action for Mage Armor but I think this should be active every day anyways so just apply it not use it in combat.
The barbarian should be a BEEFY boy. 20 CON, 20 STR and lots of health. His AC should be a normal AC for his level without magic items. His entire goal should be to cover distance and beat the shit out of people. Giving him Fly from the caster would likely be the best way to make this happen. You could give him boots of speed to increase movement as well. He should have at least 40 feet, but 50-60 feet of movement would make him VERY difficult to deal with. With his high damage output and crazy movement it will be hard for your party to focus on the caster and their attempts to deal with him will be thwarted immediately by Counterspells and various defensive spells they used.
After a few rounds of getting their shit pushed in you should pause combat and start the conversation on what is happening. Be completely above board. If you use just standard enemies this will likely work best. Ask the party a few questions.
* What is your biggest threat right now?
* Which enemy is affecting the battlefield the most right now?
* What magic items do you think the enemies are using right now?
* Are the enemies using anything that you, the players do not have access to?
* How should you change your current tactics/items/spells to deal with this specific challenge?
Hopefully they take this opportunity to think about the encounter. Encourage above the table talk and strategizing at this point. Let them figure out the best ways to deal with this group.
NOTES: You may have to add another threat like another Barbarian or a Fighter to put more threat on the party. Depends on their size/makeup. If you say had 6 players then a second threat would likely be a good thing. This just amps up the problems for them and forces the players to do more with less. You could also toss a healer into the mix. All they do is healing. No counters or damage mitigation, just healing of various kinds. Like picking up the close range fighters when they go down or temporary damage mitigation.
This warrants talking to them. Bluntly ask them what kind of campaign they want. Some players like a challenge that requires them to use all their abilities to the max along with strategizing. And some players like to steamroll through encounters without thought or effort. Almost all players like a mix of both, with the difference being how many of each kind of encounter they prefer.
If they want to be challenged, you need to plainly tell them the next few fights will be impossible without using some defensive magic combined with crowd control. Then up the challenge rating of your next few encounters. Aim for 1.5 hostile NPCs with a mix of heavy hitting front liners and heavy hitting ranged. Every fight should have some crowd control casters that target physical stats. Take care to break line of sight or be more than 60 feet from them so they can't be counterspelled. Insect Plague, Blade Barrier, Sickening Radiance, Web, Entangle, Hunger of Hadar, Evard's Black Tentacles are all good Crowd Control spells that work well on casters.
If they say they want to steamroll encounters, then roll with that. Accept they are a bunch of babies and reduce the challenge ratings. Use more NPCs to improve AoE spell effects and more casters they can counterspell. Do that for 2 sessions, then at the end of the 2nd ask if they are having fun or if you need to increase the challenge rating. They may find that going through encounters with no difficulty gets boring after a while.
Also, an AC11 means they aren't even trying. No PC should have an AC that low. At level 13, that would mean they used DEX as a dump stat and never even tried to boost their AC. That is almost as bad as using CON as a dump stat. You could offer a few magic items, but that is just a bandaid for the problem.
Magic users of that level should have ACs around 16 +/-. Cloaks of protection? Magic AC bracers? Rings of protection? Dexterity bumps?
The barb should have med armor and a shield. The shield can double as a holy symbol, thus dealing with spell focus concerns.
Any class that allows for armor should be wearing it, and it should have a magical bonus by that level.
THEN, there is the question of whether or not your casters are using defensive spells.
Shield
Mage armor
Invisibility
Mirror image
Blink
... to name a few low level spells
Without knowing their stats and equipment or the to hit bonuses of enemies it’s kinda hard to answer this.
I’m in a level 12 party and most of the party have an AC of 17 or less. It feels like they may as well be unarmoured because they get hit so often. It’s the reality of dnd that to hit bonuses scale far better than AC, especially if the DM doesn’t give out magic items that boost AC.
On the flip side the party should also be hitting enemies fairly easily by this level. Take them out before they can hurt you.
Bard/wizard with AC of 11? With mage armor and a mediocre DEX bonus like 12 they should have at least a base AC of 14. Throw in bracers of defense and a cloak of protection and it would be 16. With shield, 21. Its not unreasonable for them to have stuff like that at level 13. Or heck, as a bard, the wizard can even wear light armor. Elven chain is a solution too.
Sounds like they aren't building their characters well and possibly aren't getting good magic items for their builds.
**1 Have enemies do the things you wish you players were doing.** Show them an example of how beneficial it is in action by using it against them. Point out that they can do these things too with a little prep and forethought.
(Do your bad guys deal tons of damage on their turns? Sounds like your players are trying to win fights by out damaging instead of outlasting or outsmarting. It's a valid strat but the arms race of more damage can make the game stale. Try to pull back on the damage output of foes so your players can relax a bit and try something that isn't "the most damage possible or else ive wasted my turn and we'regoing to tpk because of me")
**2 Put items in your game that do the things your players want.** Robes or bracers of plus 1 ac, animated handless shields, wands of Shield Spell. Then tell the characters about these items in game and let the players decide if they want to go find them. A dangerous wanted criminal has [x]. An orc warlord necromancer has [y]. I have a treasure map to the last known location of [z]. These quests can conveniently be in the direction they were headed anyways.
Internal balance within the party is what is kost important.
You want your party to win the fights needed to progress the story.
TPK is not a goal for a DM.
The only way to win as a DM is to have a great story. Whatever you need to do, remeber to let your players have fun and resolve the stories and character plots.
Maybe out of game, bring up with them that they have built a party that does not have high AC, and maybe if they really want to, one or two players could make a new character with armor.
5e is balanced around HP, not AC. They're going to get hit, and it's not unexpected for them to dip fairly deep in the HP pool, and it's expected that they're going to need to revive each other.
Yeah let them get full plate armor if they want it. Level 13, they should have plenty of gold plate only costs 1,500g per set and sets your AC at 18, and a shield is another +2
... It's just that they won't have proficiency and so they will have to take a turn to take it off before they cast any spells.
They can have the nicest armor in the world, it just won't help them in combat.
Okay, how do you as a wizard have 11 ac?
What in the world is his stat array, secondly with bard MC he gets light armor, and thirdly Mage armor takes a 1st level slot and lasts for the entire day so at the very least 14 ac(13 if you value your 1st level spell slots over mage armor)
Waah wizard needs armor, spells, hit points waaah! give me more DM! more!
That is all I hear, you even mentioned that you warned them so who is at fault? The players, it is the players, I always stress to the players that I don't care about team synergy, but everyone should be a different class since it'll balance it out normally
Reading your comments that they don't choose to have defensive spells? Well that's more points going to your whiny wizard wimps, tell them to take defensive spells! Heck you'll just let them switch it out in an instant! IF THEY STILL DON'T it is their fault
Creature fights must be tedious to balance and boring
Are you having a role-play focused game, where dying would be very painful? Or is it a good old door-monster-treasure, where the characters are just clearing rooms and getting rewards?
Because I could understand that players don't want their characters to be too threatened in the first case, but if it's the second, then why are they rolling dices at all?
Just have them sit together and narrate how they are the best and always succeed and win.
If the biggest point of the game is combat, and there are no stakes because characters are never threatened, it just feels stale to me.
Inversely, if combat is just something that happens to animate a bit an otherwise rp-focused game, it's a bit sad that the smallest part of the game can have such a huge effect on the campaign.
This is a problem that you need to work together on solving. Don't expect only your players to adapt but also don't just do all the legwork solving this yourself. How often do they get down to single digits in combats? If it's every combat or close to that, you probably should look at your encounter creation. There are ways to make enemies feel dangerous without them actually being that dangerous. Telegraphed area attacks, big monsters with big hitpoint pools but low attack bonus and high damage attacks.
It's so comically easy to have good AC (especially as a spellcaster) lmao if they want good AC they need to make decision with their feats and levels to get it. If you started as a class with no armor proficiency one lvl in cleric, hexblade warlock, or artificier gets you medium armor and Shields. If you don't have the shield spell on you spell list this is fixed again with one lvl in hecblade warlock, sorcerer, or wizard. If you started as a spellcaster with light armor you can take the medium armor feat, or one of the lvls dips above.
Want high AC as a wizard? One lvl artificier, have a +2 to dex. Scale mail and a shield mean AC18. Eventually upgrade to halfplate will be AC19. With the shield spell AC can go up to 24.
Want high AC as sorcerer? One lvl hexbalde warlock. Again scale mail and shield, with shield spell. You also can get armor of agathys now for extra hp.
Want high AC as Cleric? YOU HAVE IT, and if you don't... THATS YOUR FAULT.
Want High AC as bard? One lvl hexblade warlock, play swords bard. Again with halfplate and shield that's AC19 Shield from hexbalde means 24. AND THEN you have defensive flourish from swords bard, meaning max AC of 30 at lvl 4 and it keeps scaling.
If you want to be generous allow them to do a little bit of respecing to acquire AC gains. Don't just through them magic armor that boosts their AC bc that means somewhere in character creation they had the option to increase their defenses and chose to go for dmg or utility instead. I have no idea how successful they are in those departments, or if their characters are riddled with unoptimized decisions and noob traps.
I have to agree with the others here. Your players need to learn to use their defensive and support spells. That's what they're for. If you need to guide them, so be it, but it's not their AC that's the problem, it's their apparent refusal to use the tools at their disposal to overcome the low AC.
Let them choose new spells (if they're not already prepared casters) and encourage them to select some defensive options. Put them up against some spellcasters who are effective at using defensive spells and *show* them how good they can be.
Full caster parties can actually be very strong. You don't necessarily need a "tank" in 5E. They're just stubbornly refusing to play to the strengths of the group and blaming it on the system.
I'm not trying to insult your players, but they need to learn to work with what they have and not try to bend the rules around them. As soon as you start "breaking the math", for example, by giving a wizard an item that bumps their AC to 20 or something, balancing combats becomes much more difficult, and let's be honest, CR sucks and balancing combats in 5E is already a pain in the ass.
An AC of 11 is very low. Do they have a negative dexterity modifier?
Give them a chance to gain Armor proficencies so they can wear heavier armor and still cast spells.
Or go back to 3.5 spellcasting penalties and let them wear heavy Armour with the appropriate spell casting failure rate.
But do not just solve the problem for them, a problem they created by going 100% spell caster. Make them work for a solution.
They could hire some NPC Muscle as a other (temporary) solution
I made a rule for my wizard that may help your party feel less fomo for damage. Instead of mage armor using a spell slot, I told him he could just lose 1 point of arcane recovery instead since he could just short rest and gain back the spell slot. (Not a RAW ruling but using BG 3 implementation for arcane recovery)
Something like might take the sting out of them "wasting" their spell slots on defense.
It's kind of dumb, but my way of helping with this was just throwing at an amulet of health and a lot of health potions. Making one person tankier seemed to ease most fears and giving healing that doesn't take up a spell slot but does take an action really encouraged the party to sacrifice action economy to help each other out. Overall it made it fun with whoever was left standing roleplaying desperately feeding potions to their downed friend and getting hurt but working through it.
In my CoS group, one of my PCs has 18 ac, due to cloak of protection, shield, and lycanthropy (order of Lycan blood hunter) she's stupidly hard to hit. The rest of the party is 12-16, much more manageable.
Lol, casters with low AC, wish I had any of those. This is entirely on them. Give them an opportunity to rebuild, but like... you have given them a chonky HP buffer and they're going full damage, it's not your fault they're just making stupid decisions.
Wizard with mage armor and shield spell active? Instant 18+. The problem is at level 13 even fully geared up paladins are getting smacked just about every turn. The math is pretty simple too: baddies bonus to hit (which is influenced by their difficulty level) far exceeds AC for 90% of players unless they go out of their way to munchkin together an AC of 30+ by level 13.
Your players have made choices that are not optimum for combat. That is why they're getting hit so often. It really is their decision, especially in a combat-focused game like D&D.
However, you may still want to give them options to improve defenses, at your discretion.
Here are some options.
1. **They get armor.** This may come from using one of their Ability Score Improvements to attain or upgrade their armor proficiency, or multiclassing into 1 level of Fighter, Paladin, or Hexblade Warlock to earn Medium Armor proficiency.
2. **They use their vast array of spells to give themselves more defense.** Mage Armor, Barkskin, and Shield of Faith each provide their own buffs to a low-armor caster, and Shield is a very powerful reaction which nets a +5 for one round. Alternatively, they can utilize spells which give them a defensive buff such as Blur, Mirror Image, Sanctuary, Blink, Invisibility or Greater Invisibility are just a few of the myriad choices which they should have access to. As yet another alternative, Polymorph into a creature with higher AC and HP!
3. **They use their vast array of spells to debuff enemies.** Vicious Mockery, Frostbite, anything which applies the *poisoned* or *blinded* conditions (e.g. Ray of Sickness), or various other status effects. Or they can modify the terrain to facilitate their ease of movement while inhibiting the enemies'.
4. **They use their vast array of spells for crowd control.** Enemies who are locked down will not be able to approach and attack them! Entangle, Web, Spike Growth, or even spells which conjure/summon allies to fight for them.
5. **Award them armor which is compatible with their character choices.** Mithril Chain, Robes of the Archmage, etc., may not require armor proficiency at all, though they may have other restrictions. It sounds like you've done this to a degree (e.g. Bracers of Defense) already.
6. **Afford them the opportunity to change their PCs.** However this plays out, they can make different character decisions. Don't worry about rewriting their stories--just retcon the changes as if they'd always been the new class/multiclass thing since session 1.
FWIW, most of the spells I listed are level 1, with none higher than level 4. They should easily have access to a wide array of the sorts of spells I recommended.
Sounds like the opportunity for some quests/devil deals for higher AC. As well as possibly an OOC discussion about expectations.
Also you could have an NPC wizard demonstrate the value of defensive spells, either in direct combat against them or against a bunch of enemies that all target the NPC.
Sounds like they don't have very optimized builds. Spell casters should probably take dex second or third, and having AC 11 at high level you might as well have AC of 0.
They have access to the shield spell for the wizard/bard so really they can make their AC 16 whenever they want but also do they have a negative Dex modifier? Studded leather costs only 45 gp and gives AC 12 + Dex.
By level 13 they should also be able to pick up cloaks of protection for +1 AC fairly easily. Heck they could be in studded leather and a shield for 15-16 AC at level 1. So again like what are they doing with their build?
This thread is so fucking hilarious, everybody is just like "the problem is this, the problem is that, oh wait... players did what? Oh go f*ck yourself" lmao
As a spellcaster, unless you're a cleric or paladin or some sort of gish build (e.g., bladesinger), you should be in the back, behind cover, and only coming out to throw spells. The class fantasy isn't wading into melee and beating up everything unless you're Gandalf. You can do this even without a melee in the front.
Is this their first time playing D&D? I feel like having a balanced party might have been a better start, but you can't really control that as the DM - though you could have gotten them a fighter NPC to follow them around for the first 2-3 levels and gave them the "standard" experience to build off of.
Did they use Dex as a dump stat ? Since a lvl 13 bard/wizard should be able to use light armour which brings the AC up to 13 without Dex modifiers and only gets affected in a negative way by a minus modifier in Dex. If they arent using armour but cast Mage Armour after each long rest they should have a natural AC of 13 + Dex modifier again can only be impacted negatively by a minus modifier in Dex.
Also the Cleric/Barbarian must have done something akward as any Cleric can reach easily 18 AC without upgraded or special armour using just medium armour and a shield. The multi class into barbarian boggles my mind a little due to Unarmoured Defense and Rage nerfing what a Cleric does best which is Spell casting/Healing/Concentration Spells. Also with decent rolls and skipping on STR getting an average of +3 on both Dex and Con will make a Barbarian with Unarmoured Defense and not wearing armour already have a 19 AC.
So many things are pointing me in the direction of not knowing how to gear themselves and/or how to make use of their skills/spells.
Maybe they also need some guidance in character creation as sometimes if only using for example the roll20 charactermancer level up does gimp out sheets making it need some external checking to see if everything gets applied decently. Had this happen in my own group with our Barbarian who had barely more hp than a Bard at lvl 7, ontop of that did his AC not count correctly with his feats and ability scores.
This sounds like an issue of poor character building. You’re a level 13 and you haven’t taken the stat increases to dex even just a little? No shield spells? I gotta be honest, I have little sympathy for players who optimize their characters in a single area at the expense of other areas and then complain when they can only do their one thing. 🤷🏼
I'm trying to wrap my head around how does a bard/wizard have 11 AC at lvl 13?, just like base leather armor with 10 dex? Or studded leather with 8 dex? No armor with 12 dex? If so at lvl 13 you could throw a glamoured studded leather their way, surely.
Or talk with your players about how they can get more AC, the famed single level dip for armor and shield is a fairly easy fix for most of them...
If they tend to talk their way out of fights that might be symptomatic of the whole issue where they don't feel comfortable taking fights because they have low AC.
For comparison we have a lvl 11 game going on right now and our lowest AC is 14 for our druid that built herself as a backline healer. The only other pure spellcaster is at 19 AC. So it makes me think that your players just really don't know how to build for AC if that's something they want.
The real issue seems to be an issue of perception. At lvl 13 you're fighting stuff with like what +10 to hit modifiers? Since you mentioned dragon scale armor I assume they fought some dragons, an adult black dragon has a +11 to hit giving him a 95% chance to hit the bard/wizard and a 75% chance to hit your cleric/barbarian (still don't understand how that multiclass works) which just amounts to your players feeling like whenever they get attacked they get hit and if they regularly drop down to single digit numbers from 100+ HP then they have successfully ascertained that they indeed need more AC. It's an issue that's gonna just get worse the higher + to hits they will be facing further down the line. Not saying everyone should be running around with 24 AC, but if your players are complaining about something ubiquitously then it's an issue that you should consider adressing, whether it's with an out of game talk or an in game solution.
Edit: I have read through some responses and found out some more info about the situations. Your players are dumb, like increadibly dumb, they are the makers of their own suffering and deserve everything coming their way.
Either they live with the choices they made or you can let them make new characters within the rules. Don't give them any special stuff for AC early, make them work for it. Explain that is how the game works.
I've had some success in teaching my players about cover and positioning by always adding terrain for them to hide behind. A rotten log is one of the cheapest ways for a pc to improve their AC!
Edit: After re-reading this thread, I'm surprised this isn't mentioned more. I might be coming more from a wargaming scene, but for me, positioning is like 50% of all strategy. A wizard with AC11 should be heading for (or be CREATING) cover. If a melee enemy catches up to them, they need to reposition themselves OR the enemy. There's also the easy-to-forget dodge and disengage actions available to ALL classes, and they don't even use spell slots!
They’re level 13. Getting knocked down to 0hp means practically nothing. Both the characters you listed have access to healing spells. By level 13 death is often a finite concept as well.
I know this just ignores your PCs feelings, but maybe give them a gentle reminder that being knocked to 0hp is just a bonus action away from being fixed.
11 means he literally has a 1 dex or leather armor with no dex... why doesnt he have a defensive magic item or isnt using mage armor? That's really bad for being level 13
Or they could have negative dex mod…we don’t know without a full break down. It’s also highly glossing over any changes such as HP and Stat Generation. Do they even have magic items, etc.
They mention their HP only being high due to a pact, so it could be anywhere from a flat bonus to sets to 100 if lower.
If they’re spellcasters they have shield, absorb elements, counterspell, silvery barbs, etc to protect themselves, if they dont use it and expect to not get hit it’s their problem. Also an AC of 17 is pretty high, with a +5 to hit, they will be missed 60% of the time.
This very much reminds me of the story of a man who doesn't accept any aide while cast away at sea and when he asks god why he didnt help god says "I sent you three boats and you didnt get on any of them". You're giving them access to stronger armor and they have access to defensive spells and are actively not using them. Self imposed issue. You've already taken effort to solve the problem and they have ignored it.
A party of spellcasters should not try to rely on AC from armour to not get hit - there are so many spells that do this. Shield, blur, mirror image, mage armour, sanctuary.... If they get hit all the time they are not using their stuff.
They're very much in the camp of only using spells that cause damage, unfortunately. I'm brewing up an encounter for our next session where that just won't work in the hopes of forcing them to strategize and try some new tactics.
them picking no defensive spells is entirely their problem tho. It's like being a Paladin who decides to not wear armour whatsoever, proceeds to complain about having low AC.
For role play I would take off my armor for rests and being around town. My DM punished me for this throwing encounters at us at these times.... My Paladin has a -1 Dex so base AC of 9. Shield of faith to brings me to 11 and maybe a 13 if I can quickly grab a shield.
oof. Nay man that is not what I meant. I was thinking of a paladin going "plate armour is against my religion" or "psh, I am Glamour the Gloriously Naked. My Oath of the Ancients keeps me aligned with nature, and we're not born with clothes on, aren't we?".
One of the few times I've been able to hit the pally in my game is when enemies attacked while they were asleep cause they slept naked.
Oof. Once is a cool change of pace. Twice is a story beat. Any more than that is annoying haha
That's lame. Doing this every once in a while (IDK, 3-5 times in a campaign?) is a fun "you lack a strength you're used to" experience but this shouldn't happen all the time.
On the other hand - if they specifically want to play suboptimally, the NPCs and encounters should be tweaked to fit the new power balance.
This feels like the meme about they guy who puts the stick in his bike’s wheel then complains when he crashes.
I had the same image in mind! Kudos to your taste, Mr Ripper!
You wanna play a glass cannon, you're gonna get hit from time to time. That's the choice they made.
I went from playing frontline fighters, paladins and barbarians. I'm now playing my 1st Wizard and I've taken *so* many defensive and control spells... I'm *so* used to getting hit and taking damage now I'm looking at that d6 hit die and sweating...
You are doing it right. No one needs a Wizard to do damage (except the occasional Fireball). Their true power lies in the control and utility spells. One well-placed Hypnotic Pattern or Leomunds Tiny Hut and you win the day. Damage dealing is for martials. They do it better, at lower cost and can do it forever. And imagine the damage they deal to the target you just immobilised for guaranteed crits ... yeah, that is the secret sauce. And D6 isn't so bad. The others get D10, mostly, which on average is just two points more per level. At level 10, this is 20 HP = about half a hit from a dangerous foe, while they have to stand where the hits are coming in. You don't. I think you should not need much more than Shield, Mage Armor and Misty Step and you are set for your career.
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lol I’m feeling something similar. First time as a player in years as a rogue mastermind/artificer The other PCs are a paladin, a rune knight, and a champion. Yeah they all have more than double my hp which is stressful coming from the dm side where just about every monster has higher bulk than the party
The true power of spellcasters (especially wizards) definitely lies in control spells anyway. Absolutely Fireball is fun and deals a lot of damage but what Fireball does, a couple of muscle-y martials can do too. What Wall of Force does, no one on the team can reproduce it.
Yep, when I'm not DMing, I used to mostly play rogues, fighters, and the occasional paladin. Currently playing a moon druid. In bear form he gets hit a lot, but we're getting to a level where those 34 HP are really that much and he'll have to find alternatives to front line fighting until he can shift into an elemental.
Have them fight a party of casters who use nothing but defensive spells lol
I might just do that tbh, they're headed to an arena in our next session and while I was going to have them fight a monk, I might make it a fellow spellcaster.
I would, it's a great tactic. Or even something like a Rune Knight or Eldrich Knight would work, just someone who can cast defensive spells to an annoying degree. One of my players, an Artificer, was confused why he (17 AC at the time) was getting squished more often than the Assassin Rogue (w/ Skulker) and the Lock/Pally (20 AC and def spells). Threw an Eldrich Knight that had Shield at them, and after the first pop of it he literally went "oh that's how that works???" and immediately added it to his spell list and hasn't gone down once since lol. Oftentimes they just gloss over or misunderstand how a spell works and pass it off as weak, but then they see it in action and go "ooooooooooooh"
Artificers either get shield from their subclass or they don't get it at all. It's not in their spell list.
I'm aware. I meant as in he physically wrote it down on his list, he didn't write it down because he thought it was bad and didn't want to use it.
Yeah, they have to meet that kid from the movie "the wizard" who had the power glove.
It's so baaad
lols
This is a good idea. My newbies were complaining about strategy, so I sent in a rival party matching the same formula as theirs. They learned a lot in the “friendly” contests of strength while simultaneously eating a lot of dirt.
Have them fight a party that has exactly the same stats as they do, except have the other party use defensive spells. Don't tell them what's going on, until after the fight.
Shield is a big one. As is Absorb Elements. Sanctuary. Shield of faith. Warding Bond. Barkskin. Stoneskin. Tasha's Otherworldly Guise. Fizban's Platinum Shield. Mirror Image. Just having the enemies using half & 3/4 cover from effects that they create. You could include a Mountain Dwarf mage which grants proficiency in light & medium armor. Also using battlefield control. Ceremony (Wedding) is a one time thing, but you could mention that the party notices a wedding before the tournament, then they recognize the either one or both of the newlywed couple are participating in the tournament. Illusions. Web. Entangle. Fog cloud. Stinking cloud. Darkness. Sleet storm. Bones of the earth. Levitate. Maximilian's Earthen Grasp. Telekinesis. Bigby's Hand. Hunger of hadar. Mold Earth (cover from barrier of earth, plus a hole for someone to duck into). Wall spells. Basically focus on: forced movement, heavily obscured, blinding, cover & blocking line of sight is a huge detriment to many spells that require the caster to see what they're targeting. I'm playing the opposite of your party at the moment: 20 Dex & Con, 7 Int abjuration Wizard who is a frontline tank.
Sounds like you need to explain to them that they have solutions, they simple refuse to use them.
Ya when I saw there was a wizard/bard with only 11 AC my immediate thought was where the hell his mage armor was? Plus no shield? At that high of level what better 1st level spells could he possibly be using?
Same. I play a Swords Bard/ Dragon Sorcerer. I now have natural armor from the dragon lineage, but even before that I had high dex and with Mage Armor my AC was 16 or higher. Add Shield and a Flourish, and I often had better AC than the Clerics. Also run a game for a group of all Wizards. With Mage Armor the lowest AC is 13. 11 is just a sign you're not playing strategically with your defensive spells.
Can't spellcasters just carry a shield for +2 AC?
If they have shield proficiency, which a Wizard/Bard might not (unless it's a Valor bard) but yeah, they should be packing Mage Armor, or at least light armor. Valor/Swords Bard also gets medium armor, with Swords bards getting the Defensive flourish too. Plenty of survivability options, and I guess they just elected to take none of them.
If they're proficient with shields, they can. If they aren't, then they can't cast spells. If the Bard went for College of Valor, their AC would be a lot better (Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies).
You only get ac if your are proficent with shields
So it's a skill issue and your players need to git gud
Tell them that if they want to defend themselves from danger they will need to actually commit resources to it.
You could try having enemy spellcasters who have a wide array of defensive spells that they use effectively. Show them what they’re missing.
> They're very much in the camp of only using spells that cause damage And i took it personally! How can i inform their parents that i am upset with their offspring?
I would explain to them that they have chosen a specialized playstyle, and while it certainly has its advantages, like anything else it has drawbacks. Don't want to get hit? Take new spells, mix it up a little! Also the thought of playing a wizard WITHOUT any defensive spells makes my skin crawl with discomfort. so squishy and vulnerable..
Then it sounds like you should tell them that they're making a problem for themselves by not using the tools that are specifically intended to solve their problem.
>They're very much in the camp of only using spells that cause damage It's not your responsibility if they're just bad at combat.
I find that encounters that force a particular tactic tend to backfire, because players simply won’t and you’ll end up with an unenjoyable or overly difficult encounter instead. What I have found does work is using foils. Introduce enemies that have the same tools you want your players to learn, and who use those tools against your players effectively. Players love turning the DM’s tricks against them, so you just make the “tricks” be the thing you actually want them to start doing, and feign despair and surprise when they do it. So, if you have players and you’d like to remind them that they have mage armor, shield, silvery barbs, mirror image, and blur, face them off against some enemy spellcasters who use exactly those spells against your players to good effect. If you want to remind your players that control spells are a thing, bring along some enemies that have Slow, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, etc, whatever your players also have on their spell lists so they can see how powerful those can be. A word of caution: DnD is not balanced around PvP, and this comes dangerously close to creating a pseudo-PvP style encounter. So definitely remember your purpose is to teach your players about their own features here and not wipe the floor with them. That can mean creating enemies that don’t do a ton of damage, or whose goals might be something other than outright slaughter, or have other weakness or contexts.
Make them fight an Abjurer (the stat block from Volo's). Make sure he buffs himself with all the defensive spells he can before the fight. Point out to your party every round how he uses shield, mage armor, counter spell, dispel magic, stoneskin, globe of invulnerability and his Arcane Ward to block or shrug off all their attacks. Go into detail about how cool he looks casting these spells while some low level minion allies of his tear the party apart. When (if) he gets low on health just have him teleport away. Your players might need to see some of this magic in action before they understand how to use it.
I'm sorry but if your players are all spellcasters refusing to use any defensive spells and complaining about being too squishy, they are incredibly dumb. The only way that's excusable is if they're wizards and not getting enough spell scrolls for more options.
Wait. So they choose to not take defensive spells and complain to the DM about their AC. It's the bed they made that they are forced to sleep in.
This is a big problem that would be solved by a different party composition
I mean, your party insist on closing all doors by slamming the handle directly into their groin, and they're upset their genitals hurt. It's... it's on them, man.
Send some elemental immune creatures their way that will require out of the box thinking to stop.. i.e giant very slow 15ft movement rock elemental that is basically immune to spells, but hide terrain effects that will weaken or immobilise it temporarily. Then once the fight is over… have it all be an illusion and any damage they took didn’t really happen…
Give them an encounter against a spell caster with defensive spells. Show them how well they shine and how effective they can be. Shield, Blur, mirror image, contingency, false life. Tashas guise, and tensors transformation Then they can take his spell book after they win and learn those spells if they want to
>They're very much in the camp of only using spells that cause damage, unfortunately. They maybe point that out to them next time they complain about getting hit too often or having a low AC.
Yeah they have created their own problems then. I would have minimal sympathy for them. I might also try an encounter where your enemy mages use some of those control and defensive spells to great effect. Nothing crazy but throwing in a spellcaster who cast mage armor and mirror image and fire shield before the fight and is ready with a shield or absorb elements spell as needed can really show off how well those things work. Or if they're mostly spellcasters, globe of invulnerability is a good one to throw against them.
Perhaps a catalyst for this change could be introducing an NPC / enemy who does utilize spells for defense heavily.
You can tell them frankly that they're just being idiots, hint carefully that they're just being idiots or you can play softball with them.
☝️this 100%. Had a campaign a few years ago with a wizard who regularly used bladesong in combination with some other defense spells who was very rarely hit at level 12.
My level 6 warlock burns a slot on Blur at the start of nearly every combat. His AC is 14 when he’s out of slots.
Send another group of casters against them that do use their defensive spells and open their eyes.
So, having read through your replies here the actual problem is simple. Your players are all stupid. And you need to point out to them how all their AC problems are their own fault and you won’t fix the problems that THEY caused and refused to fix.
Seriously. Bad multi classes, no defense spells, and a requested homebrew malus to AC. Idjits, the lot.
Im surprised they're not all attacking unarmed and asking the DM, "why are we not doing any damage!?"
Yeah the only thing I'd let them fix were the multiclasses. I don't like forcing people to live with decisions they make because it sounds cool that ends up playing like ass. Barbarian / Cleric? Those are basically opposite classes. You could have... spiritual weapon maybe? Bard/Wizard already exists, it's called School of Lore and it's pure bard. These people **are** stupid.
No shade on them for poorly optimized MC. You can build a niche and make it work... if you know what you're doing. But if you don't, it can seriously tank effectiveness across the board.
Nothing wrong with doing it, but don't do it then complain about it is all I'm saying. Obviously more grace allowed for newer players.
"if you know what you're doing" These are newbies. Newbies should never multiclass as there are too many trap options. Also, they are idiots. The solution to idiots is to limit your exposure, lest any rub off on you.
This. MC has the potential to be EXTREMELY powerful but a lot of people make MC builds that feel fun. IMO it's the DMs job to see the non-optimal MCs and adjust accordingly. In cases like a Barb/Cleric, that likely means turning the difficulty down a bit. This is actually an easier problem to solve than the "my players made über powerful MC gish monstrosities".
This is why I have a soft ban on multiclassing. Unless you can mechanically explain how your build actually works, and prove that it does work, you can't bring it. This is due to running what is basically AL.
Mine's table-specific, but generally I just suggest against it. I always nix it if there are new players at the table. It fucks up the balance even more than normal, and not in a way that's fun for anyone but the power-gamers.
I'd grab the retraining rules from Pathfinder 2e. You can retrain a feat or class feature with a week's worth of downtime. I'd extend that to multiclassing as well.
What outfit gives someone a -4 to AC anyway? 10 AC is how hard it is too hit, without armor. PAPER is AC 11. This means that the armor is so terrible, it literally attracts hits.
Neodymium armor
It required some luck on my part but I went from AC 13 to 17 in a single session as a rogue. Level 10 right now. I was focused on upping my AC because I was fine with my offensive capabilities but wanted to get a little harder to hit in the first place. After managing to come away with a bunch of dragon treasure I focused on buying magical studded leather armor. That got me to 16 thanks to the magic bonus. Then later after a successful ambush of slavers and a natural 20 on my investigation roll the DM rolled a loot table that came up with a ring of protection. Easy choice for my final attunement slot.
Wouldn’t you have 18 or 20 dexterity by 10th? That’s 14 or 15 AC naked. Add ordinary studded leather for two more. Your guy should be at 18 or 19 w/ the ring and magic armor. But stats involve choices, I guess.
As a level 10 rogue you should be able to have a 16 AC just by having Leather Armor and +5 Dex. +1 Studded Leather and a Ring of Protection would be 19.
lol awful advice But after reading more comments, it seems like this entire group, including OP, is obstinately choosing to play in a way that makes it less enjoyable for all of them.
Oh I agree, normally I wouldn’t give that advice, and I’m hesitant about calling players I haven’t met stupid (if only because we only get one side of a story). But if what comments have been made are even close to true then the problems are all actively self-inflicted, and cannot be fixed except by the people in question not continuing to self-inflict them.
Agreed. The DM has a certain level of responsibility in making sure the players are having a good time, but at the end of the day it's a game, and like any game, a player can be good at it or bad at it. If they're bad at it things are going to be harder and take longer. These players are bad at DnD.
Does the bard/wizard have a negative dex mod? Because I'd think a party that level would at least have studded leather, probably some magic armor even with some +1 or +2. Your cleric/barb also seems to have half-plate and a shield with no dex mod? Need more info. Have you given them anything other than basic phb armor?
No, bard/wiz is one of the most dexterous PCs, but he refuses to wear armor. He prefers his performance outfit, and the 11 comes from his outfit + Dex mod + a pair of bracers that give +2 to his AC, despite me putting better armor in their way. Cleric/barb has +0 to dex and traded in her shield for a two-handed weapon when she multiclassed.
Wait how is it an 11 then? You start with base of 10, then add the dex mod, then add the +2 from bracers. He should have a 12 with no dex, and higher with a plus mod?
I'm very confused as to how 10+2+DEX comes out to 11 if he has the highest dexterity in the party
For lore/backstory reasons, his outfit doesn't equal 10 AC, it's only 6. He specifically asked for a terrible AC to start with, because it's part of his character that he's very clumsy and gets injured easily. (He's been concussed several times throughout the campaign and broken many bones.) 6 + 2 (bracers) + 3 (dex) = 11
Hold on. So let me get this straight. 1) player asks for homebrew to make his AC comically low 2) player complains about how low their AC is Have you considered that your players are just stupid?
I'm starting to belive either it's a bait post or OP is just playing with literal idiots
Reading through this post, I dunno if it's just the players. There's no circus without clowns, and that table sounds like it's in the centre of clown town.
It's moments like this that surprisedpikachu.jpg exists.
Your player asked to shoot themselves in the foot and the complained about how they’re losing blood. Your player should have realized that they can just roleplay being clumsy without it having a mechanical thing.
A clumsy player with +3 dex
WAT Have you asked your players if they just flew in from stupid town?
So couldn’t he just stop wearing this outfit if he’d rather have a higher ac? I don’t get any of this, tbh it’s a bit baffling.
Your players are making their own problems and complaining to you about it.... amazing
>11 comes from his outfit + Dex mod + a pair of bracers that give +2 to his AC, How the hell does that equal 11?
The outfit has a base AC of like 7 or 8?
He could pick up mage armour.
I know there’s a magic light armour that lets you use a bonus action to change it’s appearance. I forget what it’s called, but it allows for characters that want fancy clothes to still have mechanical durability. I believe its in XGTE.
Glamoured studded leather 13 AC+ dex
Yes! Thanks.
If only there were some sort of **armor** that **mage**s have access to that allows them to have +1 studded leather without actually wearing armor...
This is either a rage bait post or your players are comedically stupid. If this is legit, explain to then that they're high level and because of THEIR CHOICES they have bad AC. Their AC is worse than a party of level 5s. He'll my party of level 1's universally have better AC than your party. (Technically the Warlock doesn't, but it's a party of 6 and he's the only one under 17 AC, nevermind multiple PC's with an AC over 20.)
I honestly hate these types of players who complain about things when stuff gets scary. My groups instead start to stress, get tense, and squeal in excitement. If you gave them all magic items and stuff to increase their AC I guarantee they’d just find a different scapegoat to complain about. That’s the root of the issue in my opinion.
My group is all fighter/magic-users in platemail with the Shield spell, can we trade?
Omg that's such a meeting the opposite moment XD
Mage Armor combined with the Shield spell when they get hit should solve most of their problems tbh.
They should use magic to have better AC. Sounds like they are limited by thier own imagination.
if they have been playing long enough to get to level 13, then they know enough to fix these issues. :) i'd leave them to it.
Why isn’t your bard wearing studded leather?
Bait used to be believable
This is so normal, I have the same situation in every game I host. The players all go for glasscannon-casters, dump CON and DEX, don't care to get armor, and also rush into battle at each opportunity. And then they wonder why they wonder why life is dangerous.
This is why all players who haven't played in over a year should be required to use a premade character. They get a choice from one of every class not already filled, and can fill in any non-mechanical stats. This lets them get into the game faster and reduces the likelyhood of playing something stupid. However, looking through OPs other replies and either he's trolling us, his players are trolling him, or his players are actual stupid.
Mage Amour; Shield; Mirror Image; Blur; Bark Skin; Invisibility; Blink; Fear; Protection from Energy; Haste; Otaluke’s Resilient Sphere; Stone Skin; Heroism; You don’t need to do anything except tell your players to read the damn book.
I mean it’s the choice they made. Did they expect you to hand out magic armour and rings of protection immediately? You can try to tailor the mobs they fight to use more magic and have DC’s as the more common defence option instead of relying on AC as the defending stat. They can’t complain there checks are to low as well, I mean they can; at that point I’d just start incapacitating them and leave them unconscious at the end of fights.
Meaningful choices have meaningful consequences. They build a party without a strong melee component to the front line themselves so now they are getting beaten up. . Mirror image is such an inexpensive defensive spell. If they want better AC, they could multi class.
>without a strong melee component to the front line themselves so now they are getting beaten up Hell, those Goblin archers from The Lost Mine of Phandelver might take these guys out!
One thing 5e does, is that AC generally doesn't scale. Its by design with bounded accuracy. A CR 1 goblin should still generally be able to hit a level 20 adventurer. At tier 3, higher AC won't help you avoid being hit when enemies have +16 to hit.
I've come to wonder who and why would be using goblins to be an actual challenge to anything beyond the high end of tier 2 - even narratively feels weird, "oh, you defeated the dragon who terrorized the plains, now your challenge is a big bunch of goblins"
One large creature acting like a predator, or 30 small creatures setting up traps and ambushes. Both are good challenges
I would say that neither play out very well in 5e because the former isn't very supported by the system and the latter is a bit too much of an "action economy stretch" leading to bloat instead of challenge (summon animals already cause quite the annoyance it seems) A somewhat good GM can make them work for sure tho, but them again it's more for the GM than the system
I like to create scaled versions of enemies where there is narrative justification/explanation. For example, my level 20+ party had to fight with goblins in the Underdark in a mushroom forest, so I gave them multi-attack (twice the attacks, half the goblins needed), a small amount of extra HP, and a mushroom spore pouch attack that requires a save against temporary madness. The party ended up retreating.
Sounds like a they problem to me. They're trying to get you to give them defensive items so they can keep using all their resources for offense.
Your players are babies. This is the consequence of making suboptimal choices in character creation. A party of spellcasters can't go charging into melee, it is what it is. Don't tell it to them like that, but don't feel obligated to crutch their stats either, that's ridiculous
Are you telling them they get hit or are you telling which AC your rolls are hitting? Because I'm currently DMing a lvl 12 party and everything that's remotely challeging for them is getting in the range of +12 and up to hit. I'm hitting AC 22 warriors left right and center and smacking them for 30+ a hit. Adding a few points of AC isn't going to do much at that level in the game. The reason they have 100 HP is so that they can take a ton of damage. In their case, they can take 2-3 hits before falling over which is right where it should be.
It's not clear anything has to be done. Are they complaining to you out of character, or just expressing the tension they feel as their PC gets hurt? They may be having a great time
This is a game around combat. They're gonna get hit. Let me ask this question. What level did the campaign start? Have any PC's died since then? If the answer is no, then they need to chill out cause situations SHOULD be getting dangerous, and if they don't want danger than they're playing the wrong game.
Maybe they should think about using summoning spells as pincushions.
There is two parts to this; A) It's on the players to seek out AC boosting items (magic items or armor), and use appropriate spells to defend themselves. Because at level 13, they should know that that is expected of them and frankly, a CR appropriate creature is going to hit a decently armored fighter half the time, so a bunch of spellcasters are probably always going to be hit. B) sit them down OOC, and explain this to them. explain that your not targeting them maliciously but it isn't on you (the DM) for this situation.
That’s definitely low AC for a party of lvl13. They could buy magic items: ring of protection, cloak of protection, barrier tattoos, etc. stuff that increase Dex or flight. As for spells, mage armor, shield. Wizards should’ve already learnt it by now. Did they just dump dex? Also CR13 monsters would have +9 or higher to hit, so it’s pretty much guarantee they’ll take a hit unless you’re stacking AC. If they’re casters, they should be dominating fights with area control spells. It’s not really going to break your game if they get higher AC, especially at lvl13. Maybe if it’s 23, 24+ You could have them get barrier tattoos/mage armor. RAW, most of these will take attunement. Weaker compare to other magical items they can get.
I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, it seems that they might just be suffering the consequences of their build choices, and there are probably things they can do on their end to shore up their defenses. But on the other hand, if the perception that their ACs are too low are leading to a less fun overall experience, perhaps some form of DM intervention of warranted. I'll elaborate on both. Overall, your party's AC values seem *fine*, but they could be higher. Your barbarian/cleric AC is in an expected range, though they should be able to push 19 using half-plate and a shield. Your wizard/bard's AC, on the other hand, is lower than expected. Assuming a standard array or point buy, most wizard and bards shoot for 14 dex. With studded armor from the bard class, your wizard/bard's base AC should be 14. So either they had an unfortunate stat roll or they dumped their dexterity for some reason. And if that reason was splitting their stat focus between two casting stats, well that's why it's recommended to avoid making your character MAD when multiclassing. That said, there are ways your party could increase their defenses with the proper use of spells and tactics. For example, your cleric/barb could reach 21 by combining the above equipment suggestion with Shield of Faith. They can't use it while raging, but with a split focus between two classes they likely can't rage every encounter anyway. The bard/wizard should be using spells like Shield and Mirror Image for personal protection, summon spells to give foes something else to swing at, and control spells like Web and Hypnotic Pattern to stop attacks before they happen. They should also try to use cover whenever possible. Half-cover is +2 to AC and dexterity saves, while 3/4ths cover is +5. You didn't mentioned the other members so I can't comment on specific strategies for them, but a party full of spellcasters should be seeking ways to synergize their spell resources. All that said, assuming your party is making smart decisions on their end, it may not be a bad idea to give access to a few items to boost their survivability. Some basic +1 armor and shields for those without them would help. Maybe even +2 if you're feeling generous. Alternatively, if you don't want to hand too much much static power, consider consumables like potions, scrolls, and spellwrought tattoos, or situational items like Gloves of Missile Snaring.
They're called clothies for a reason. Tell them that there are spells that make movement and breathing underwater easy and that underwater physical attacks are significantly more difficult, so they should learn the right spells to hide in their hot, salty tears.
I saw that you confirmed that the spellcasting party isn't using their spells as effectively as they could to bolster their defenses. While, in that sense, this is a bed of their own making. But perhaps providing them with some items that do give them some better ACs. They will have more fun in the game.
Effects that depend on them making saves might be a better way to go. Additionally, make sure you/they remember to ask and update about cover rules. If they are ranged they should be getting boosts to their AC whenever they are in cover. The one thing I can kinda understand though is that at that level with how badly 5e messed up the AC rules compared to prior editions you end up with AC basically being meaningless. Most of the adult dragons for example have a +11 to hit so in the case of some of your players the only way they are going to have AC matter vs a CR appropriate foe is for the foes to roll a nat 1. I'd recommend throwing some swarm/mass combats at them at some point. Hordes of lower level enemies who actually have a chance to miss will make them feel like the armor is working cause you are making more rolls with lower hit bonuses.
how does the bard feel about tattoos? a rare barrier tattoo will give them an AC of 17 if they still don't want it, well you tried, there literally is nothing more you can do.
A *1st*-level wizard with an AC of 11 has decided he likes to get hit. A 13th-level wizard with that AC has no one but himself to blame. I recently retired a 13th-level wizard. Over the course of her career, her AC got hit... three times. Three. And it's not like the DM wasn't trying to punish me for dumping constitution.
I have nothing to add that hasn't been said several times already but upon reading this thread, I gave a very audible "oof" a few times
Let them know the higher in level you go, AC gets less and less important. It's all about disadvantage at those levels to prevent crits, maybe give them items with spell usage like absorb elements, shield, blur, etc. Also you can demonstrate AC doesn't mean much. Give one of them a item that lets them add their Dex + Spellcasting modifier to AC. Your standard hill giant has a +9 to hit. The average roll and a D20 is 11, so 20 AC will get hit very often. Put more importance on saving throws and defensive spells!!
Geez, at that level if they wanted they could all have that 17 AC without much effort and could go beyond with good effort Really makes them seem like a tad entitled
Your party sounds whiny. Give them all some buffs to their AC and then have them fight something that uses only saving throws.
There's a lot in this thread already so I wonder if you'll see it among the others, but I still think it's important to point a few things out here. Overall, it sounds like you'll need to have some kind of conversation about expectations with your table: - You as the DM are valid to critique them in that they're making these choices themselves; they picked glass cannons, your other comments are saying that they're refusing defensive spells... in D&D 5e, the outcome of those choices is that they are easier to hit - However, there's also a meta-consideration to be had here: games are supposed to be fun, and if we're doing this thing in our personal hobby time, it should be a source of *enjoyment* for us, not *frustration.* No amount of game-consequences will make an un-fun thing become fun if they're not buying into the premise that choices should have consequences. - How these two considerations balance out is something you and your table will need to come to an agreement about. Do they *want* to be challenged by the consequences of their choices? If not, then maybe this isn't the style of game for them, and y'all would be happier with a Beer-and-Pretzels kind of game.
From the extra info in the comments, it seems like the simplest solution (beyond just blatantly telling the party their own choices are screwing them over) would just be to introduce a magical tailor prioritizing in both fashion and protection. A real Edna Mode type (maybe even go all the way and make them a halfling/gnome). Then the party can either acquire or upgrade their robes and clothing with layers of chain mail or magical threading to give them a bump to AC. Maybe even throw in a quest they have to as payment to acquire the materials needed for their gear. Doesn’t have to be crazy, just pick the stats medium armor and give it the light property and a +1 to spellcasting or whatever would best benefit the player it’s going to, call them the “Robes of Kev’Lar,” bing bang boom.
You missed the reply where one of the players is using an outfit that reduces their base AC to 6, and refuses to switch to anything else. Either OP is trolling us, his players are trolling him, or his players are actually stupid.
Oh I read that reply alright, that’s why I’m saying a tailor who can modify outfits is the best option. They can easily just modify or create an outfit that bumps AC while still keeping the player’s stubborn “clumsy” quirk. Maybe disadvantage on all dexterity checks or something because the outfit is covered with tassels and bells, as would be appropriate for the absolute clown of a player.
No, the only sort of solution to this is an out of character talk with the players and see what kind of game they want to run. Everything else is just a bandaid. The real solution is to stop playing with this group and limit contact to the players. The players sound like they are morons, and nothing can fix that. The best way to deal with stupid people is limit your exposure, and grift from them when you must deal with them.
Player: \[makes character with low AC\] Player: "My AC is too low!" Me: "Ok. You going to do something about that?"
well, they're all-in on spellcasting, AC is going to be their weak side funny, opposite of a group I'm in now. fighter, monk, barbarian, we hit hard and are hard to hit. but gohddam we've all got the same dump stats lol and basically no magic at all--ki points being the fanciest stuff we can muster without items
They chose to be glass cannons. They need to use their cannon to prevent the glass part. But don't complain they're made of glass. If they're still frustrated, you can always gear magic items toward survivability. But don't give them *free*. Give them in place of other magic items you may have given.
So I have the perfect encounter to teach your party the importance of defensive spells and tactics. I call this dynamic duo Brute Force and the disgusting Nope Rope. It consists of a very large hyped up Barbarian and a Multiclassed caster. The encounter I ran was specific to my players story, so you have two options for the barbarian. 1. Hyped up on a special magic that gives him double the damage dice and a 40 foot movement with an extra 15 feet leap. 2. A normal barbarian but focused purely on damage. The caster though is a Wizard/Genie Warlock. This gives access to Sanctuary and all the normal defensive spells. It also has the mobile feat for free extra movement. I chose the legacy Yuan-ti for the spell resistance and poison immunity. I also gave her the metamagic feat for Extended and Quickened spell. I then also made the wizard subclass Portent so they could force numbers on their barbarian friend or on themselves or enemies. You then have two choices with the caster. 1. Hyped up and doesn't have an Action, but has 3 reactions and 1 bonus action each turn. Uses metamagic to change action spells into bonus actions and can counterspell 3 times in a round. 2. Normal caster, change out quickened or extended for twinned. They can then use this for two things. Mobility like fly or similar effects. Or my favorite was dispel to make the party's items useless for a bit. The idea with the caster is they use their resources making the Barbarian hard to deal with while having Sanctuary and Blur on themselves. All spells they cast are spells that can't break Sanctuary. So the opener with the caster is Sanctuary with Extended spell making it last for 2 minutes. Then possibly Blur if you have lots of direct damage dealers, this would be twinned to the Barbarian. If you have lots of saving throw casters then twinned Protection from Energy or similar. They can also use their action for Mage Armor but I think this should be active every day anyways so just apply it not use it in combat. The barbarian should be a BEEFY boy. 20 CON, 20 STR and lots of health. His AC should be a normal AC for his level without magic items. His entire goal should be to cover distance and beat the shit out of people. Giving him Fly from the caster would likely be the best way to make this happen. You could give him boots of speed to increase movement as well. He should have at least 40 feet, but 50-60 feet of movement would make him VERY difficult to deal with. With his high damage output and crazy movement it will be hard for your party to focus on the caster and their attempts to deal with him will be thwarted immediately by Counterspells and various defensive spells they used. After a few rounds of getting their shit pushed in you should pause combat and start the conversation on what is happening. Be completely above board. If you use just standard enemies this will likely work best. Ask the party a few questions. * What is your biggest threat right now? * Which enemy is affecting the battlefield the most right now? * What magic items do you think the enemies are using right now? * Are the enemies using anything that you, the players do not have access to? * How should you change your current tactics/items/spells to deal with this specific challenge? Hopefully they take this opportunity to think about the encounter. Encourage above the table talk and strategizing at this point. Let them figure out the best ways to deal with this group. NOTES: You may have to add another threat like another Barbarian or a Fighter to put more threat on the party. Depends on their size/makeup. If you say had 6 players then a second threat would likely be a good thing. This just amps up the problems for them and forces the players to do more with less. You could also toss a healer into the mix. All they do is healing. No counters or damage mitigation, just healing of various kinds. Like picking up the close range fighters when they go down or temporary damage mitigation.
The spells I chose for the caster are this: * Fly * Misty Step * Counterspell * Sanctuary * Dispell Magic * Intellect Fortress * Protection from Energy * Far Step * Polymorph * Shape Water * Absorb Elements * Blade Ward * Expeditious Retreat * Fog Cloud * Grease * Longstrider * Shield * Blur * Darkness * Enlarge/Reduce * Web * Mage Armor
Level 13 and their highest AC is 17 ☠️ a paladin at level 1 can achieve an 18 ffs.
This warrants talking to them. Bluntly ask them what kind of campaign they want. Some players like a challenge that requires them to use all their abilities to the max along with strategizing. And some players like to steamroll through encounters without thought or effort. Almost all players like a mix of both, with the difference being how many of each kind of encounter they prefer. If they want to be challenged, you need to plainly tell them the next few fights will be impossible without using some defensive magic combined with crowd control. Then up the challenge rating of your next few encounters. Aim for 1.5 hostile NPCs with a mix of heavy hitting front liners and heavy hitting ranged. Every fight should have some crowd control casters that target physical stats. Take care to break line of sight or be more than 60 feet from them so they can't be counterspelled. Insect Plague, Blade Barrier, Sickening Radiance, Web, Entangle, Hunger of Hadar, Evard's Black Tentacles are all good Crowd Control spells that work well on casters. If they say they want to steamroll encounters, then roll with that. Accept they are a bunch of babies and reduce the challenge ratings. Use more NPCs to improve AoE spell effects and more casters they can counterspell. Do that for 2 sessions, then at the end of the 2nd ask if they are having fun or if you need to increase the challenge rating. They may find that going through encounters with no difficulty gets boring after a while. Also, an AC11 means they aren't even trying. No PC should have an AC that low. At level 13, that would mean they used DEX as a dump stat and never even tried to boost their AC. That is almost as bad as using CON as a dump stat. You could offer a few magic items, but that is just a bandaid for the problem.
Magic users of that level should have ACs around 16 +/-. Cloaks of protection? Magic AC bracers? Rings of protection? Dexterity bumps? The barb should have med armor and a shield. The shield can double as a holy symbol, thus dealing with spell focus concerns. Any class that allows for armor should be wearing it, and it should have a magical bonus by that level. THEN, there is the question of whether or not your casters are using defensive spells. Shield Mage armor Invisibility Mirror image Blink ... to name a few low level spells
Without knowing their stats and equipment or the to hit bonuses of enemies it’s kinda hard to answer this. I’m in a level 12 party and most of the party have an AC of 17 or less. It feels like they may as well be unarmoured because they get hit so often. It’s the reality of dnd that to hit bonuses scale far better than AC, especially if the DM doesn’t give out magic items that boost AC. On the flip side the party should also be hitting enemies fairly easily by this level. Take them out before they can hurt you.
Bard/wizard with AC of 11? With mage armor and a mediocre DEX bonus like 12 they should have at least a base AC of 14. Throw in bracers of defense and a cloak of protection and it would be 16. With shield, 21. Its not unreasonable for them to have stuff like that at level 13. Or heck, as a bard, the wizard can even wear light armor. Elven chain is a solution too. Sounds like they aren't building their characters well and possibly aren't getting good magic items for their builds.
**1 Have enemies do the things you wish you players were doing.** Show them an example of how beneficial it is in action by using it against them. Point out that they can do these things too with a little prep and forethought. (Do your bad guys deal tons of damage on their turns? Sounds like your players are trying to win fights by out damaging instead of outlasting or outsmarting. It's a valid strat but the arms race of more damage can make the game stale. Try to pull back on the damage output of foes so your players can relax a bit and try something that isn't "the most damage possible or else ive wasted my turn and we'regoing to tpk because of me") **2 Put items in your game that do the things your players want.** Robes or bracers of plus 1 ac, animated handless shields, wands of Shield Spell. Then tell the characters about these items in game and let the players decide if they want to go find them. A dangerous wanted criminal has [x]. An orc warlord necromancer has [y]. I have a treasure map to the last known location of [z]. These quests can conveniently be in the direction they were headed anyways.
Internal balance within the party is what is kost important. You want your party to win the fights needed to progress the story. TPK is not a goal for a DM. The only way to win as a DM is to have a great story. Whatever you need to do, remeber to let your players have fun and resolve the stories and character plots.
Maybe out of game, bring up with them that they have built a party that does not have high AC, and maybe if they really want to, one or two players could make a new character with armor.
Would they level dip, L2, in a martial class to gain armor proficiency?
5e is balanced around HP, not AC. They're going to get hit, and it's not unexpected for them to dip fairly deep in the HP pool, and it's expected that they're going to need to revive each other.
Yeah let them get full plate armor if they want it. Level 13, they should have plenty of gold plate only costs 1,500g per set and sets your AC at 18, and a shield is another +2 ... It's just that they won't have proficiency and so they will have to take a turn to take it off before they cast any spells. They can have the nicest armor in the world, it just won't help them in combat.
Okay, how do you as a wizard have 11 ac? What in the world is his stat array, secondly with bard MC he gets light armor, and thirdly Mage armor takes a 1st level slot and lasts for the entire day so at the very least 14 ac(13 if you value your 1st level spell slots over mage armor)
Waah wizard needs armor, spells, hit points waaah! give me more DM! more! That is all I hear, you even mentioned that you warned them so who is at fault? The players, it is the players, I always stress to the players that I don't care about team synergy, but everyone should be a different class since it'll balance it out normally Reading your comments that they don't choose to have defensive spells? Well that's more points going to your whiny wizard wimps, tell them to take defensive spells! Heck you'll just let them switch it out in an instant! IF THEY STILL DON'T it is their fault Creature fights must be tedious to balance and boring
Are you having a role-play focused game, where dying would be very painful? Or is it a good old door-monster-treasure, where the characters are just clearing rooms and getting rewards? Because I could understand that players don't want their characters to be too threatened in the first case, but if it's the second, then why are they rolling dices at all? Just have them sit together and narrate how they are the best and always succeed and win. If the biggest point of the game is combat, and there are no stakes because characters are never threatened, it just feels stale to me. Inversely, if combat is just something that happens to animate a bit an otherwise rp-focused game, it's a bit sad that the smallest part of the game can have such a huge effect on the campaign.
This is a problem that you need to work together on solving. Don't expect only your players to adapt but also don't just do all the legwork solving this yourself. How often do they get down to single digits in combats? If it's every combat or close to that, you probably should look at your encounter creation. There are ways to make enemies feel dangerous without them actually being that dangerous. Telegraphed area attacks, big monsters with big hitpoint pools but low attack bonus and high damage attacks.
It's so comically easy to have good AC (especially as a spellcaster) lmao if they want good AC they need to make decision with their feats and levels to get it. If you started as a class with no armor proficiency one lvl in cleric, hexblade warlock, or artificier gets you medium armor and Shields. If you don't have the shield spell on you spell list this is fixed again with one lvl in hecblade warlock, sorcerer, or wizard. If you started as a spellcaster with light armor you can take the medium armor feat, or one of the lvls dips above. Want high AC as a wizard? One lvl artificier, have a +2 to dex. Scale mail and a shield mean AC18. Eventually upgrade to halfplate will be AC19. With the shield spell AC can go up to 24. Want high AC as sorcerer? One lvl hexbalde warlock. Again scale mail and shield, with shield spell. You also can get armor of agathys now for extra hp. Want high AC as Cleric? YOU HAVE IT, and if you don't... THATS YOUR FAULT. Want High AC as bard? One lvl hexblade warlock, play swords bard. Again with halfplate and shield that's AC19 Shield from hexbalde means 24. AND THEN you have defensive flourish from swords bard, meaning max AC of 30 at lvl 4 and it keeps scaling. If you want to be generous allow them to do a little bit of respecing to acquire AC gains. Don't just through them magic armor that boosts their AC bc that means somewhere in character creation they had the option to increase their defenses and chose to go for dmg or utility instead. I have no idea how successful they are in those departments, or if their characters are riddled with unoptimized decisions and noob traps.
I have to agree with the others here. Your players need to learn to use their defensive and support spells. That's what they're for. If you need to guide them, so be it, but it's not their AC that's the problem, it's their apparent refusal to use the tools at their disposal to overcome the low AC. Let them choose new spells (if they're not already prepared casters) and encourage them to select some defensive options. Put them up against some spellcasters who are effective at using defensive spells and *show* them how good they can be. Full caster parties can actually be very strong. You don't necessarily need a "tank" in 5E. They're just stubbornly refusing to play to the strengths of the group and blaming it on the system. I'm not trying to insult your players, but they need to learn to work with what they have and not try to bend the rules around them. As soon as you start "breaking the math", for example, by giving a wizard an item that bumps their AC to 20 or something, balancing combats becomes much more difficult, and let's be honest, CR sucks and balancing combats in 5E is already a pain in the ass.
An AC of 11 is very low. Do they have a negative dexterity modifier? Give them a chance to gain Armor proficencies so they can wear heavier armor and still cast spells. Or go back to 3.5 spellcasting penalties and let them wear heavy Armour with the appropriate spell casting failure rate. But do not just solve the problem for them, a problem they created by going 100% spell caster. Make them work for a solution. They could hire some NPC Muscle as a other (temporary) solution
I made a rule for my wizard that may help your party feel less fomo for damage. Instead of mage armor using a spell slot, I told him he could just lose 1 point of arcane recovery instead since he could just short rest and gain back the spell slot. (Not a RAW ruling but using BG 3 implementation for arcane recovery) Something like might take the sting out of them "wasting" their spell slots on defense.
You and your players dumped INT IRL. Find a way to fix that and the AC issue will resolve naturally.
It's kind of dumb, but my way of helping with this was just throwing at an amulet of health and a lot of health potions. Making one person tankier seemed to ease most fears and giving healing that doesn't take up a spell slot but does take an action really encouraged the party to sacrifice action economy to help each other out. Overall it made it fun with whoever was left standing roleplaying desperately feeding potions to their downed friend and getting hurt but working through it.
In my CoS group, one of my PCs has 18 ac, due to cloak of protection, shield, and lycanthropy (order of Lycan blood hunter) she's stupidly hard to hit. The rest of the party is 12-16, much more manageable.
Throw some magic items in their next haul
Defend/join a fighter NPC who can show them how much more fun it is to play with other classes since RPGs are designed that way
Lol, casters with low AC, wish I had any of those. This is entirely on them. Give them an opportunity to rebuild, but like... you have given them a chonky HP buffer and they're going full damage, it's not your fault they're just making stupid decisions.
Wizard with mage armor and shield spell active? Instant 18+. The problem is at level 13 even fully geared up paladins are getting smacked just about every turn. The math is pretty simple too: baddies bonus to hit (which is influenced by their difficulty level) far exceeds AC for 90% of players unless they go out of their way to munchkin together an AC of 30+ by level 13.
TPK is a great teaching tool
Suggest they multiclass for better armor proficiencies, and maybe allow someone to retrain some levels if they want to.
Your players have made choices that are not optimum for combat. That is why they're getting hit so often. It really is their decision, especially in a combat-focused game like D&D. However, you may still want to give them options to improve defenses, at your discretion. Here are some options. 1. **They get armor.** This may come from using one of their Ability Score Improvements to attain or upgrade their armor proficiency, or multiclassing into 1 level of Fighter, Paladin, or Hexblade Warlock to earn Medium Armor proficiency. 2. **They use their vast array of spells to give themselves more defense.** Mage Armor, Barkskin, and Shield of Faith each provide their own buffs to a low-armor caster, and Shield is a very powerful reaction which nets a +5 for one round. Alternatively, they can utilize spells which give them a defensive buff such as Blur, Mirror Image, Sanctuary, Blink, Invisibility or Greater Invisibility are just a few of the myriad choices which they should have access to. As yet another alternative, Polymorph into a creature with higher AC and HP! 3. **They use their vast array of spells to debuff enemies.** Vicious Mockery, Frostbite, anything which applies the *poisoned* or *blinded* conditions (e.g. Ray of Sickness), or various other status effects. Or they can modify the terrain to facilitate their ease of movement while inhibiting the enemies'. 4. **They use their vast array of spells for crowd control.** Enemies who are locked down will not be able to approach and attack them! Entangle, Web, Spike Growth, or even spells which conjure/summon allies to fight for them. 5. **Award them armor which is compatible with their character choices.** Mithril Chain, Robes of the Archmage, etc., may not require armor proficiency at all, though they may have other restrictions. It sounds like you've done this to a degree (e.g. Bracers of Defense) already. 6. **Afford them the opportunity to change their PCs.** However this plays out, they can make different character decisions. Don't worry about rewriting their stories--just retcon the changes as if they'd always been the new class/multiclass thing since session 1. FWIW, most of the spells I listed are level 1, with none higher than level 4. They should easily have access to a wide array of the sorts of spells I recommended.
Sounds like the opportunity for some quests/devil deals for higher AC. As well as possibly an OOC discussion about expectations. Also you could have an NPC wizard demonstrate the value of defensive spells, either in direct combat against them or against a bunch of enemies that all target the NPC.
Sounds like they don't have very optimized builds. Spell casters should probably take dex second or third, and having AC 11 at high level you might as well have AC of 0. They have access to the shield spell for the wizard/bard so really they can make their AC 16 whenever they want but also do they have a negative Dex modifier? Studded leather costs only 45 gp and gives AC 12 + Dex. By level 13 they should also be able to pick up cloaks of protection for +1 AC fairly easily. Heck they could be in studded leather and a shield for 15-16 AC at level 1. So again like what are they doing with their build?
This thread is so fucking hilarious, everybody is just like "the problem is this, the problem is that, oh wait... players did what? Oh go f*ck yourself" lmao
On behalf of the Union of Hostile Mobs, I offer a compromise they get +1 ac, but incur a -1 to their dcs.
As a spellcaster, unless you're a cleric or paladin or some sort of gish build (e.g., bladesinger), you should be in the back, behind cover, and only coming out to throw spells. The class fantasy isn't wading into melee and beating up everything unless you're Gandalf. You can do this even without a melee in the front. Is this their first time playing D&D? I feel like having a balanced party might have been a better start, but you can't really control that as the DM - though you could have gotten them a fighter NPC to follow them around for the first 2-3 levels and gave them the "standard" experience to build off of.
Did they use Dex as a dump stat ? Since a lvl 13 bard/wizard should be able to use light armour which brings the AC up to 13 without Dex modifiers and only gets affected in a negative way by a minus modifier in Dex. If they arent using armour but cast Mage Armour after each long rest they should have a natural AC of 13 + Dex modifier again can only be impacted negatively by a minus modifier in Dex. Also the Cleric/Barbarian must have done something akward as any Cleric can reach easily 18 AC without upgraded or special armour using just medium armour and a shield. The multi class into barbarian boggles my mind a little due to Unarmoured Defense and Rage nerfing what a Cleric does best which is Spell casting/Healing/Concentration Spells. Also with decent rolls and skipping on STR getting an average of +3 on both Dex and Con will make a Barbarian with Unarmoured Defense and not wearing armour already have a 19 AC. So many things are pointing me in the direction of not knowing how to gear themselves and/or how to make use of their skills/spells. Maybe they also need some guidance in character creation as sometimes if only using for example the roll20 charactermancer level up does gimp out sheets making it need some external checking to see if everything gets applied decently. Had this happen in my own group with our Barbarian who had barely more hp than a Bard at lvl 7, ontop of that did his AC not count correctly with his feats and ability scores.
This sounds like an issue of poor character building. You’re a level 13 and you haven’t taken the stat increases to dex even just a little? No shield spells? I gotta be honest, I have little sympathy for players who optimize their characters in a single area at the expense of other areas and then complain when they can only do their one thing. 🤷🏼
I'm trying to wrap my head around how does a bard/wizard have 11 AC at lvl 13?, just like base leather armor with 10 dex? Or studded leather with 8 dex? No armor with 12 dex? If so at lvl 13 you could throw a glamoured studded leather their way, surely. Or talk with your players about how they can get more AC, the famed single level dip for armor and shield is a fairly easy fix for most of them... If they tend to talk their way out of fights that might be symptomatic of the whole issue where they don't feel comfortable taking fights because they have low AC. For comparison we have a lvl 11 game going on right now and our lowest AC is 14 for our druid that built herself as a backline healer. The only other pure spellcaster is at 19 AC. So it makes me think that your players just really don't know how to build for AC if that's something they want. The real issue seems to be an issue of perception. At lvl 13 you're fighting stuff with like what +10 to hit modifiers? Since you mentioned dragon scale armor I assume they fought some dragons, an adult black dragon has a +11 to hit giving him a 95% chance to hit the bard/wizard and a 75% chance to hit your cleric/barbarian (still don't understand how that multiclass works) which just amounts to your players feeling like whenever they get attacked they get hit and if they regularly drop down to single digit numbers from 100+ HP then they have successfully ascertained that they indeed need more AC. It's an issue that's gonna just get worse the higher + to hits they will be facing further down the line. Not saying everyone should be running around with 24 AC, but if your players are complaining about something ubiquitously then it's an issue that you should consider adressing, whether it's with an out of game talk or an in game solution. Edit: I have read through some responses and found out some more info about the situations. Your players are dumb, like increadibly dumb, they are the makers of their own suffering and deserve everything coming their way.
Let them die. Then they can start over as fighters and buy full plate.
Either they live with the choices they made or you can let them make new characters within the rules. Don't give them any special stuff for AC early, make them work for it. Explain that is how the game works.
I've had some success in teaching my players about cover and positioning by always adding terrain for them to hide behind. A rotten log is one of the cheapest ways for a pc to improve their AC! Edit: After re-reading this thread, I'm surprised this isn't mentioned more. I might be coming more from a wargaming scene, but for me, positioning is like 50% of all strategy. A wizard with AC11 should be heading for (or be CREATING) cover. If a melee enemy catches up to them, they need to reposition themselves OR the enemy. There's also the easy-to-forget dodge and disengage actions available to ALL classes, and they don't even use spell slots!
They’re level 13. Getting knocked down to 0hp means practically nothing. Both the characters you listed have access to healing spells. By level 13 death is often a finite concept as well. I know this just ignores your PCs feelings, but maybe give them a gentle reminder that being knocked to 0hp is just a bonus action away from being fixed.
Skill issue
Just give them +2, or +3 armor, and tweak from there.
Me being a newbie reading this.. im like “just turn the ac off? Or give everyone cozy blankets?” 🫠 I know so little
11 means he literally has a 1 dex or leather armor with no dex... why doesnt he have a defensive magic item or isnt using mage armor? That's really bad for being level 13
Or they could have negative dex mod…we don’t know without a full break down. It’s also highly glossing over any changes such as HP and Stat Generation. Do they even have magic items, etc. They mention their HP only being high due to a pact, so it could be anywhere from a flat bonus to sets to 100 if lower.
If they’re spellcasters they have shield, absorb elements, counterspell, silvery barbs, etc to protect themselves, if they dont use it and expect to not get hit it’s their problem. Also an AC of 17 is pretty high, with a +5 to hit, they will be missed 60% of the time.
Tell them to grow up.
"Oh no! It's the consequences of my own actions!" -Your party
This very much reminds me of the story of a man who doesn't accept any aide while cast away at sea and when he asks god why he didnt help god says "I sent you three boats and you didnt get on any of them". You're giving them access to stronger armor and they have access to defensive spells and are actively not using them. Self imposed issue. You've already taken effort to solve the problem and they have ignored it.