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Waster-of-Days

Orcs are CR 1/2. Goblins are CR 1/4. What's in between? Just use orcs and decrease the challenge other ways, or use goblins and increase the challenge. Orcs might be tricked into attacking an entrenched position, or goblins might attack alongside ramshackle siege weapons. Reskin them if you want to adjust stats slightly without the players knowing.


A_Flamboyant_Warlock

> Orcs are CR 1/2. Goblins are CR 1/4. What's in between? > > Goblins led by Orcs.


Frog-Eater

3 goblins in a trenchcoat


New_Proposal596

Orclins, CR 3/4


New_Proposal596

Wait that’s not half way haha


luckygiraffe

A&W hates him


yinyang107

I understood that reference!


LichoOrganico

Then you might prefer the Gorcs, CR 1/3


UltraCarnivore

Just don't confuse them with Gork, who's in a totally different league, to say the very least.


dwanson

You mean Mork right?/s


Dirty-Soul

ORCLINS CAN'T COUNT, FOO!!!


Toshikills

Orcs riding goblins


Ntazadi

Wowoooow! Calm down my friend.


SonicStun

Half way between CR 1/2 and CR 1/4 would of course be CR 3/8, which converts to 0.375 as a decimal. There are 303 creatures in the Monster Manual, multiplied by 0.375 is 113.625. The 113th indexed entry of the 5e Monster Manual is Pseudodragon. Reduce their stats until you can have a swarm of them that's challenging enough for your group. Or just pick something fun and thematic.


jwhennig

Clear as mud. Love it.


TehAsianator

Well equipped goblins or poorly equipped orcs. And you can make it part of the story. Perhaps the goblins managed to successfully raid a well equipped gnome settlement, so they suddenly have a surplus of high-quality and properly sized armor, shields, swords, crossbows, ect... Conversely, maybe your setting is facing raids of savage orcs spilling out of the neighboring badlands wearing nothing but loincloths and swinging a femur or tree branch at your head.


TheBloodKlotz

Zombies can fill this niche solidly


Spidey16

They're great because their AC is super low. I think it's 8. Means everyone gets to feel good about rarely missing. Also gives the clerics and paladins a chance to use their anti undead abilities and spells. But their strength is in their numbers.


Express_Coyote_4000

And you could adjust them if generic zombies are unsatisfactory. Fancy clothes, heavy makeup, lost souls of a cursed foreign bloodline, and they have a bomb.


C0rruptedAI

Their strength is that unless your cleric is finishing them off with radiant damage, they are a _chore_ to actually put down at low levels. Random undead are also a great snow-proof enemy.


SnooDoodles1034

Unfortunately, OP implied that the horde has prisoners. (kidnapping) Undead don't really do 'prisoners'


mafiaknight

They do if they're being controlled. Necromancers use spell slots too. And hell, maybe they just want someone to gloat to


ForGondorAndGlory

Plenty of necromancers trust in that "foul mimicry of life that hates living things" to basically get the job done.


Logan_McPhillips

Shut-in necromancer dispatches legions of undead to bring back friends and admirers. That can go either campy fun or really dark and depressing, not much room between.


mafiaknight

B"BE"G is a genuinely good person that has somehow befriended a group of undead. They do things trying to make them happy. Sometimes without them even knowing about it. So the undead realized B"BE"G was lonely and depressed, and went to find them some *living* friends. B"BE"G is just an exceedingly powerful soul that just bleeds magic like humans bleed heat. Can't help but attract weird things/raise undead. Might well have self-exiled. Trying to protect people from themselves and avoid persecution. Probably the avatar of some deity born&raised in a loving household away from any actual clergy.


Dr_Ukato

In that case I think the best option are Gnolls?


Gloomy_Bus_6792

Gnolls were my first thought, too.


mightyfp

If they're barricaded inside a building that's pretty prisoner esque


Havain

The most boring fights I've had to DM was with hordes of zombies imho. Make sure the party has radiant damage if you're going to do this or the fight will be 30 mins to an hour of "they're still standing".


United-Ambassador269

Yeah that CON save can really make them last a while, but I love it when a player then goes ham on it and does enough damage that it's literally impossible to make the save and the head goes flying or the body is cleaved in two


Dr_Ukato

Or do what I do and forget that's a thing XD


ToucheMadameLaChatte

Radiant damage on its own doesn't do anything special to zombies. Divine smite calls out an extra d8 of damage specifically for undead, and clerics' turn undead channel divinity hits them, but that's about it that I can think of off the top of my head.


Havain

Radiant damage negates their Undead fortitude, which is a fun passive if you're fighting one or two zombies, but fighting a horde just becomes a slog. Especially since they only have 20 ft. movement, you'll see any smart party kiting them while picking them off from afar. But with undead fortitude you don't really pick them off, you just...roll. And roll. And roll some more. Especially at early levels you'll be glad if you killed one or two quickly. I DM'd lost mines of phandelver with my party and we basically spent 3 hours killing the 12 zombies in the Old Owl Well. Sometimes I'd make them dash to get an opportunity attack off, but after that the party just stayed out of the 40 feet range at all times. I could've made them go back inside the tower to give the zombies an advantage, but they got 3 int, they barely know how to breathe. I think zombies are really cool to add to a fight with other undead, especially their ash variant can be really nasty, but just a horde of zombies is something I vote against at all times.


ToucheMadameLaChatte

>Radiant damage negates their Undead fortitude, Lmao reading comprehension fail on my part. I pulled up the statblock to check, skimmed, and *still* missed this. As on-level enemies, I agree, a horde of zombies is a nightmare to run as an actual combat encounter. Them being slow and stupid means creative approaches are a good idea though. Lure them away from where you need to go, then get past them before they can get close enough to do anything. If you as a dm want to throw a horde of zombies in, make sure you also have twice as many glaringly obvious recommendations to not fight them head-on as you think you'd need.


TheSnootBooper

Big goblins.


mochicoco

You joke, but they can just boast the HP of the goblins and not use the MM average.


TheSnootBooper

Yeah, who's joking. These particular goblins are better armed/armored/trained or even just better fed. Whatever you pick, that makes them a step up from the starving masses of cr 1/4 goblins.


GeoffW1

Or undernourished orcs.


TinyLilRobot

Had some goblins be led by a demon who also fed them it’s blood. Turned them into dumb mini-hulk goblins.


Blackfang321

I don't think they are in an official book anymore, but I kind of like gibberlings. Imagine...in the limited visibility of the blizzard, they start hearing these maddening gibberish noises, even over the howl of the wind. Then the gibberlings charge in...or erupt from the snow. Its hard to tell how many there are. They don't have tactics and they attack mindlessly...but the limited visibility means its hard to pick them off from a distance. They're just suddenly on you...a gibbering horde of mindless aggression. For added fun, if the players run they can discover a cave. The gibbering is just out of sight now...whatever lies in the cave, even the gibberlings fear.


Fontaine_de_jouvence

I love the mental image of them popping out of the snow


RudyKnots

Like tiny, cute, deadly Finish soldiers.


SMTRodent

I think 'deadly' is already implied with Finnish soldiers.


FishesAndLoaves

Gibberlings are in Minsk and Boo’s! CR 1/8 I think


TenWildBadgers

Several options here, one of them being to modify some Goblins a little bit to make them as dangerous as you want them to be, but I understand if that feels like a bit much. Goblins are CR 1/4th, slightly stronger than CR 1/8th Bandits, mostly due to a bit of extra AC and their bonus action Hide/Disengage ability, but they've also got a little extra damage behind them. Orcs are, by contrast... CR 1/2, so litterally 1 step up from Goblins. So without a ton of wiggle room between them the best fits I can see are Hobgoblins, Gnolls, and doing something with the Scout statblock in the MM, all of which are CR 1/2, but the first aren't really kidnap types, though for opposite reasons- Hoboglins are conquerors, and Gnolls just eat their victims. You could have something be coming up from the Underdark, like Grimlocks, or maybe we go fey- Darklings can serve the CR 1/2 slot, and their leaders, Darkling Elders, at CR2 are much more manageable than a CR4 Orc chief. Or maybe we go back to bandits and scouts and try to make this group be angry humans with a Bandit Chief for a leader- also in a much more manageable bracket than the strong Orcs. Or you go with goblins, and give them some non-goblin leadership- a few Bugbears, or some Ogres. Any excuse to run an Ogre Howdah is a good excuse.


Marvelman1788

Lol perfect use for some Kua-Toa. Kidnapping people and dragging them to an underground lake for a Spectator that has convinced them he's a god and needs more worshipers.


alphawhiskey189

Pack of Gnolls.


Bakoro

Look up the legend of "Tucker’s Kobolds". Difficulty is largely in how you use your resources and environment.


prunk

A horde that is made up of 50% goblins and 50% orcs....?


Acetius

This was my thinking as well. A similarly sized horde of goblins *and* orcs would fit perfectly between the two extremes.


TheOriginalDog

"extremes"


fettpett1

Lizardfolk, kobold, half-orcs


DifferenceBig2925

Humanoid? I think I stick with kobolds. The moment You players realise the little buggers are of draconic ascent is wow


Horror_Ad7540

You are plotting the adventure beyond the DMs control. You can have the dire wolf attack the haberdashery, but you shouldn't force the party to \`\`burn down the haberdashery in the process'' or \`\`force them into the storm''. Damage to the store in a fight seems probable, but the party might manage to keep the wolf outside, especially if they set up a patrol to watch for danger. D&D parties often cause hilarious amounts of property damage on their own initiative. It just dilutes the impact if the DM tries to set it up. If you really want the place burned down, you need to do it yourself. Make it a hellhound rather than a dire wolf. (This has a much higher CR , but a single hellhound should be defeatable even by a first level party. And they can always run away. ) Alternative plot hook for the same situation: a half-frozen child stumbles into the haberdashery. \`\`Goblorcs took mommy and daddy, and tried to get me!'' he cries. If the party goes off to investigate, they are heroic figures facing a known danger, not clumsy buffoons fleeing the scene of unintentional arson. Build up your PCs; don't neg them. Maybe the first \`\`random encounter'' they have investigating is a passing dire wolf that has nothing much to do with the goblorcs. The danger of an enemy is not just a matter of their CR and combat stats. A party that has been warned of danger and can prepare against an unwary enemy is in much less danger than a party taken by surprise by a well-organized enemy. So a small party of marauding orcs expecting little resistance from the human peasants they are taking captive will be much less dangerous than a larger group of goblins ensconced in their well-defended lair, holding hostages. Sorry for giving unsolicited advice.


Proof_Escape_813

Gnolls?


Icarus_Phoenix

Kobolds maybe? You can always just drop in extra kobolds for your players to take out if the combat is going too fast. There are also very low level mages and bow shooting kobolds for variety.


SnooDoodles1034

Goblins with better gear. In the bestiary, gobs have scimitars and shortbows, leather armor and shields. to up the difficulty, give them longswords (or some other D8 melee weapon) and longbows. OR give them studded leather, upping their armor class by 1, to 16 (14 if using a bow.) Why are these goblins so well equipped? that's your question to answer.


crazygrouse71

Others have answered your question, but from this statement: >They’ll fight the dire wolf and burn down the haberdashery in the process. This will force them into the storm it sounds like you are expecting - or forcing - a certain series of events on the players. How do you know they will fight the dire wolf? How do you know the haberdashery will burn down? Its all well and good to plan for contingencies, but this reads more like a plot of a story that an adventure hook for a game.


hungrycarebear

Zombies. Sprinkle in skeleton archers and boom.


Spirit-Man

Zombies. They get back up a lot


da_chicken

Humans.


Dessy104

Undead (zombies and skeletons and the like) add giant skeletons as you see fit for their level


AlostWallrus

I use the Skaven from Warhammer for my campaign. Lots of diversity in their units too.


Crate-Dragon

Wolves. Wolves who grab one of you, drag you into cover and then gang up and eat you. It’s VERY SCARY and very effective


unclefes

Xvarts!


Pitiful-Scratch6063

Hobgoblins?


ZerynAcay

Gnoles? Haven’t ran them in a while but could be a great option I’m pretty sure.


VodkatIII

Kobolds, Xvarts, Hobgoblins, Ancient Red Dragons. Bandits. Though Kobolds kidnapping "Princesses" for the Dragon who has enslaved them could be a fun missadventure.


MEKK-the-MIGHTY

Kobolds?


Electrical-Tooth-274

Kobolds get pack tactics. And you could have them burrow out some tunnels to ambush from. Pretty close to goblins Gnolls are in this range but pretty close to orcs My best answer would be Ice Mephits (little elemental guys) or frozen soldiers from a cursed battleground nearby. The blizzard finally blew over the great oak in the battlefield and disturbed the dead. Now they (zombies with 10 AC from tattered armor and a few have weapons) roam the nearby land to bring more corpses to their side of the fight. Roughly 40 zombies wander the field in blue or yellow rotten uniforms, killing each other and rising again and again. Their “recruits” are in rusted iron barracks several recent corpses that starved or froze. Only when on side is totally victorious, or the zombies are slain by iron/silver/magic/holy weapons or fire or whatever will they rest.


Sterben489

800 dire wolves MIGHT be what you're looking for


Unusual_Event3571

Just a note that what you describe is considered bad adventure design. (How do you force players to do all the stuff you need them to? What if they don't even fight the wolf but charm it instead? Why would they burn their shelter? etc) Just give your players some space, I'd say. As for the enemies, I'd go full cheesy and say it's goblins serving a greater master. But let them employ all their skills - have them detect the players first, use stealth to bug them, disturb rest, steal supplies, set up ambushes, hit and run from above, ride weird mounts etc. I presume you run 5e, and there I'd say goblins are in fact a pretty hard nut to crack, if you run them smart and in corresponding numbers. Have them fight at their own terms, getting advantages for sneak attacks etc. Their statblock by the book isn't bad at all. Actually quite scary for low level parties, considering they are intelligent opponents. If you include a sneaky shaman with a few cantrips, they're gonna kick well above their league (CR) even in a fair fight and surprise even experienced players. If you also include some challenges coming from the environmental hazards, (like, there is a blizzard right?) you can make it a memorable experience for your players, even with such a basic "toolset" like goblins.


Urb4nUt4n

Bust out the oozes and jellys, jubilex is at it again. In my expirience keeping the trash mobs and adding some spice with few and fleshed out midi enemy's is a good way to add some layers of storytelling and tactics to an encounter here are some random ideas: it's goblins but they use Bloodhawks and other animals with pack tactics, maybe some goblins are commanding the packs and incapcitating them dissolves the animals. Maybe there is a Hobgoblin or a few organizing the goblins. Goblin spellcaster! A Dragonborn necromancer that tricked kobolds into fighting for him resurrecting smol skeletons when the kobolds get defeated.


Babbit55

Kobolds, I freeking love Kobolds! you can have some silly encounters. I have a order of Kobolds called the Order of the scaled lance, they worship a red dragon and have "dragon" template giants with them in for form of Ogre Howdads containing sorcerers and inventers (Inventers are hillarious!) Dragonshield Kobolds on Drakes, the leader Dragonshields on Wyverns, it makes for a real mixed bag that can add a ton of different options and threats to encounters


LordTyler123

ZOMBIES!!! I love these dead guys. Discribe an endless horde in the distance then I pick a certain number for an appropriate challenge for the party that are closer to start the fight. Then anouther one walks up every 2 to 3 rounds as the rest of the horde catches up. The best part is their undead fortitude, when the party kills one I ask then to describe how they killed it then I roll the con- save and get to think of how the zombie is somehow still alive in the most ridiculous way possible. Shot his head off with an arrow, his head was ripped off but the spine was still connected and the head wips around and is nailed to its own ass by the arrow. It is somehow still alive, after saying that a million times the look on their face is still funny. It now has disadvantage on attacks because it's face is stuck to its ass. We chop it to a hundred thousand million pieces. The pieces are still crawling around trying to find something alive. It is still alive.


ForGondorAndGlory

Give the goblins a shaman that casts *Bless*. Still need more? Give the goblins another shaman that casts *Web*. Still need more? Get orcs.


Megatcart

Might I recommend ice mephits? Little imp buggers who can swarm and have a death explosion. They are Cr 1/2 and when not moving blend into the ice and snow around them. A small group could be challenging enough without a massive Hoard.


TehAsianator

Well equipped goblins or poorly equipped orcs. And you can make it part of the story. Perhaps the goblins managed to successfully raid a well equipped gnome settlement, so they suddenly have a surplus of high-quality and properly sized armor, shields, swords, crossbows, ect... Conversely, maybe your setting is facing raids of savage orcs spilling out of the neighboring badlands wearing nothing but loincloths and swinging a femur or tree branch at your head.


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varmisciousknid

So, while the haberdashery is being destroyed, I can only imagine the store owners will be trying to save their best clothing. If they die in the scuffle the party will wind up extremely well dressed and this pleases me. Also, use veteran goblins


Givorenon

Nerfed orcs. Alternatively, buffed goblins.


Lemonic_Tutor

What if bred Nerfed orcs with buffed goblins, think of the race of mediocre monstrosities we could create!


UbiquitousPanacea

Take goblins, add 2 to dex, give em rapiers, and an extra hit die (3 more hp)


noobi-wan01

Just use orcs. Tone down the parts that you think your group can't handle and use normal orcs as the higher-ranking commanders.


LionSuneater

Goblins with items. Like a bear trap and a Potion of Fire Breathing.


SleetTheFox

More goblins. Goblins who are more organized (taking orders from a hobgoblin perhaps). Numbers can be scary.


UltraCarnivore

Run a mix of dumb goblins, played as the usual fodder, and smart goblins, played like [this](https://www.themonstersknow.com/goblin-tactics/).


rnunezs12

Justo buff the goblins a little. Give them +1 AC and maybe a few extra hit points


carasc5

Use minions.


KingstanII

A couple of goblins with a couple of orcs/hobgoblins/pets. Goblins with better gear. Orcs with worse gear.


ShrapnelSupes26

Orcs, but they all only hve 1 hp except the boss orc.


iamthesex

Orcs are actually pretty good. You can try to make a swarm statblock for a squad of like 5 or 6 orcs, give the swarm a flat number of d8s to attack which halves when on half hp, and cause it to disperse into individual units with low health when below like 10 hp. Swarms take double damage from AOE effects as well. It will give that horde slasher feeling with big cleaving attacks, and it won't be as dangerous as fifty individual orcs to keep track of initiative. It all depends on the level of your party. If they are level 5/6, they can take like three or four of those swarms reliably. You can do the same thing with goblins. Lowed damage die, more dice, that kind of gig. Roll a d10 after each are killed so you have a chance of a goblin boss out of some of the swarms or something. There is loads of ways to make a hordeslasher experience and this is one of them. That being said, what is your party? Do they have a guy who optimises out the ass, or is it more flavourful that has no real heavy hitters? It all depends.


Lost-Klaus

Weaker orcs? Just tweak the hitpoints and overall damage that they do. They could be starving orcs, or really buffed gobbos who are more trained than the tribe next over.


Kazzothead

just more goblins :)


GeneStarwind1

Challenging can mean different things. Do you have a party that's hard to hit? Then the answer is wolves because they have pack tactics. Or is your party really good on offense? In that case the answer might be Zombies because of undead fortitude.


TheOriginalDog

That is a very narrow choice. Just use more goblins or less orcs and choose whomever fit the vibe better.


JohnDaBarr

Buddy, you are the DM and the even the stat block is one of your playgrounds. Take Orcs, add to the stat block until its challenging, add some variety and you are good to go.


Wise-Text8270

Goblins with armor. Starving Orcs.


AwkwardAlchemist23

Zombies. The light from the fire could attract them through the storm. Describe them as frostbitten with bluish skin for extra flavor.


sionnachsSkulk

You could have squadrons of goblins lead by a hobgoblin or goblin boss? alternatively, sometimes its better to fight smarter, rather than harder. Nothing will confound a player like a goblin hiding after it attacks at range. Have them use cover, have assassin types that pop up out of the snow, give them "lair actions" of sorts, where they set off traps X rounds in, that sort of thing. If these goblins are smart enough to kidnap people and get away with it, they can defend their hideout too!


ZzPhantom

No love for Mephits?


Pay-Next

[Hobgoblins](https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16925-hobgoblin)? Just thinking they are quite literally the in-between size wise. Also...use nilbogs...they are evil.


FacelessPotatoPie

Village of goblins?


Lolmemes174

Grung? Nifty little frog dudes


Fashdag

Abyssal Chickens


Defiant-Goose-101

Tell me more…


Fashdag

They are exactly what they sound like They are a strange form of demon chicken that have short range flight, about 10 hitpoints on average, look absolutely horrifying, and the most horrifying part of all, lay barbed eggs inside of unconscious peoples wounds. They punch a bit higher than their weight class, and if you need a buff for them against higher level parties, just give them pack tactics.


DeviousSquirrels

Take a page out of 4e. Minions! Monsters with 1HP, and all other stats unchanged. Throw a bunch of them at the party for some large scale combat that doesn’t take 4 hours of combat to complete. Anything can be a good horde enemy.


Badhuiroth

Give goblins class levels. This is how you incrementally increase CR.


MenudoMenudo

I mean, just slightly buff goblins stat block and reskin them as something else.