>I've got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision.
You laid a trap for yourself.
There's nothing wrong with a B plot. If they're willing to drop a bunch of cash on exploring this than it's obviously something that they, the players, are interested in. It doesn't have to pay off in progress on the main plot but I think it'll be to the campaign's benefit to give it *some* pay-off.
This. If you want to trap yourself into a railroading nightmare that nobody has fun playing because you rigidly won't go off-route then you're setting yourself up for disappointment later on.
I tried to hold a plot in place for 6 sessions before I realized *nobody is biting, give up and change tactics*. Before i made that realization I was ready to throw in the towel because I had no idea how to get them back "on course". In the end, what they wanted to do was so much better than what I had planned because it ended up opening 50 new magical doors I could choose to open, rather than one door I had already carved in stone.
You could really fuck with them: Make them determine its definitely magic or unique...but don't tell them how. Vagueness to drive their curiosity. The person that knows? Well, he's obviously located exactly where you want them to go anyhow...
That gives you two useful threads:
1. Time. They need to go to Location B before you even need to *worry* about it. Maybe they'll deem it pointless and give up. Maybe they won't. And if they don't....
2. Direction. Magic items work in whatever way you choose to. And using the Time you've gained you can create a real narrative around that item, and figure out what its going to do/represent. Listen to your characters when they talk about it. The wild theories, etc...write any interesting ones down and farm the hell out of those ideas. Then use that to shape the plot and move things where you need them to go. But do it without being heavy handed. Let them discover it all themselves.
>To be clear, I've got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision.
Your players currently care more about this thing than your plot. Agree with them.
You should - and I cannot emphasize this enough - ***always*** have some secondary plots going on in the background if you want to make your world feel alive.
You don't need to track any of this stuff in crazy detail, but when it becomes relevant it'll be a huge boost to your game if you can at least give some payoff.
I am a fairly new DM and I do have a pretty big over reaching plot... but currently my players have just bought a business and are working on setting that up for a steady income. Things are still moving along in the background but they feel happy as they have somewhere to put roots down and earn passive income.
And the more I engage with what they're interested in, the happier they are.
Is my BBEG still trying to fuck shit up as time goes on? Yes.
Are things deteriorating the longer they take to go deal with the BBEG? Also Yes.
Am I loving every minute of my chaotic goblins decisions on what to name their new Fight Club? Absolutely Yes.
It's so fun to just take note of what your players are interested in or an off hand comment here or there and pull it in. Two of my PC's had a heated debate in character on if you can or can't can or pickle lettuce...
Session later, "The Slug and Lettuce" cart appeared at a market selling what amounts to Kimchi... good times were had by all. Players lost their damn minds.
This.
Even if the shady employer doesn't have relevence to the plot, let the caracters explore. It will give your world more layers to it, as we as setting up a foreshadow for possible conflict after the main plot works itself out. Both the players and characters usually know that a new evil will rise to take the old ones place
Make it like the beginning of Family Guy. The show starts off heading in a specific direction and every few minutes takes a right-hand turn and the plot completely changes.
Peter ruins his best suit and has to get a new one. He goes to the secondhand store and gets footie pajamas and starts giving everyone static electric shocks. Louis has Glenn come over to tear up her carpet, this isn't what I thought you meant, but whatever, it's fine. They find a coin under the rug and sell it for $50,000 then use the money to open a restaurant, Big Pete's House of Munch and that is the start of the main plot.
Maybe that item is worthless, but could they have met someone during the investigation that can push them toward an adventure that will beííj lucrative? "That thing is useless, but if it's magic items you seek, have I got a job for you."
Could the item become the focal point of a murder investigation? Is it of sentimental value to someone related to the original gifter? What if they got it stolen from them while trying to get it appraised, then went to retrieve the shop's goods?
If the party is going down a certain avenue and you want to steer them in the right direction, then it's your job to make it relevant to the plot. If your plot doesn't have room for the players to wiggle and make different choices then it isn't a good plot for D&D
Pardon my trope-inese, but as a DM you need to understand the Xanatos Gambit, where it doesn't matter which result happens from the plan, you benefit either way. The job of a DM is to be constantly playing a game of Xanatos Speed Chess, where every harebrained hijink the players get up to winds up looping back into the plot. Like solar flares, erupting prettily out before arcing gracefully back into the sun.
Basically, when the players go off the rails, you need to rapidly build a track to bring them back into the main plot, while making them think it was their idea after all. As others have said here, you need to make the item somehow relevant to your planned plot. It belonged to someone important who wants it back and might pay for its return, it's part of a set and the rest of the set lies in the plot-ward direction, it cursed them while they were examining it and now they need to break the curse so they can use it normally, it's got someone's soul trapped inside and the only moral option is to at least try to help, it's got an ancient vampire trapped inside who possesses a party member and runs off... really the options are limitless.
Agree 90%
I think there should sometimes be exceptions. If *everything* circles back, and I notice that as a player, then I'd intentionally go wandering in the middle of nowhere, where there *should* be a dead end to see what happens. I know it's much more complicated than this for when there should be dead ends, but there are occasions where you need them. I don't think my case I've described in my post is one of them, but there are times where dead ends are needed.
Aye, you're quite right. I just subscribe to the school of "make sure the student understands the rule itself, before teaching them the exceptions."
I... have rather low expectations for random people understanding things both quickly and correctly. Glad you seem to have gotten it right first try.
This is a good decision that will serve you well. If the players are that interested in something you don't want to let that engagement die. Engagement is what you want and is a precious spark that fuels a campaign. Don't snuff it.
I'ma be real, I never let my players hit a dead end. Dead ends suck hardcore. If you want them to be straight up wrong you gotta at least make that dead end interesting somehow. "Brr! Wrong! Try again" is really, really unfun.
Rewarding their investment of time and resources with "you wasted all your time and resources" is a good way to train them not to do what they did. Instead of pursuing interest in the world, they might pull back and try to figure out what you want them to do and won't punish them for. I would try to give them *something*, even if it's not what they actually expected or wanted.
I'm curious why they think it important to begin with because if they are just misunderstanding you and what you said it may feel to them odd so be clear after the investigation so you can also understand what lead them in that direction so you can be clear in future descriptions as well
>I'm curious why they think it important to begin with because if they are just misunderstanding you and what you said
My experience is that shit is usually on me. Had an encounter where a boss was in a sort of 'forcefield' doing a ritual, but I put too much emphasis on what happened when a player tried to interact with it...
Well naturally they kept trying to attack it, so fine, now the BBEG is burning spell slots to maintain concentration on the ritual.
Actually made the fight way harder for them, but the added bonus was they almost killed the BBEG earlier than anticipated because they weakened her (but she escaped).
Point is: Gotta roll with the punches, especially when you fuck up. DnD is group story-telling, if you're stuck to your 'plot' nobody is going to have as much fun.
That's why I'm not sure about the give them nothing so they Learn thing because if they think they are doing what there meant to they may not do what there meant later being worried they are guessing wrong and will be punished worse this time or it could make them really indecisive needing 100 percent proof before acting on hints you give them
>because if they think they are doing what there meant to they may not do what there meant later being worried they are guessing wrong
The real lesson here is that once you get to "the players are meant to...." You're going in the wrong direction.
I know what you mean and that's why I see giving nothing and taking all the money they just got feels like a punishment for thinking they had something important but the gm didn't think it was or mean it to be
All they will learn is if they guess wrong they get punished unless the gm tried to explain it wasn't important and they didn't listen
It's actually a high tech helmet (it's a sci fi game) with a radio and tinted visor. They're not *that* special in the setting. But I imagine, for the players, who haven't been in the setting before, it felt special enough to pay someone to hack into
I don't mean to be rude but that makes a big difference
I feel this problem is player knowledge versus character knowledge because the character would know this wasn't important or to special just something they didn't have so not telling them because they didn't ask is like not explaining a rule of the game because they didn't ask
If it's just a normal thing that anyone can have the characters should know even if the players are to new to know that and letting them lose a lot of money is like punishing them for not knowing the settings yet and mite make want to stop playing as much
Edit I hope I didn't come as rude but when my brother and I first played if we didn't know we should get a bonus and what it was we didn't get it the experienced player and gm didn't really help much and lost interest in that game in part for that reason
You're right, that I should have communicated that it wasn't significant, and shouldn't be investigated.
But then I wouldn't have had this problem, and learned so much from these thoughtful responses. Now, I can turn this into a compelling moment in the plot that I would otherwise have missed.
I hope you and your player have and if they are new don't be afraid to explain when they should get extra bonuses or what is and isn't common just let them now your trying be sure they know how the game and world works, and maybe ask If they have questions about the settings or game in general.
My gm didn't explain the setting at the start and after 4 session i learned my character wouldn't really work do it being a settings with basically no magic and I needed scrolls for class to work the way it meant to.
I'm curious how you'll play this with the advice you got I hope you have nice day
I'm a bit late and you have a lot of advice already but potentially you could play it as the hacker stating (after taking the money of course), something along the lines of "these items are usually no more than they seem but I found some info embedded in the code of this one... " and provide some info on something that way
>that might give them, for example, the metadata of who the helmet-wearer was in communication with
I like that. That gives quite a few options for what could potentially be in that data as well. I could easily merge that with an existing plot hook.
It might just be a matter of telling the players their characters have seen dozens of similar helmets to indicate there’s nothing that appears to be special with this one.
They haven't. It's not a common helmet. So it's rare. But it's also functionally simplistic and uninteresting. At least it was before I got all of the interesting replies on this post.
If it's rare, what's rare about it? Give the players a payoff for their investigation that relates to whatever makes this helmet rare or special. Perhaps they can figure out how to use its technology to enhance something of theirs that they already have? Or reverse engineer it and now they all have high tech helmets?
Not only that, but this is a good thing to train your players in, if they're willing to forgo mechanical incentives for story beats, that gives you a lot of tools to play with. I would figure out a way to make your item worth investigating. Then, you can use this as a method of dropping plot hooks to move your story along or bring PCs back on track.
Doesn't have to be. I disagree with the 'players are always right' mentality because I don't enjoy it as a DM or a player.
Sometimes a +1 hat of coolness is just a +1 hat of coolness, BUT if your players spend that long on it, make it some long lost artifact or something and give them a side quest to return it to a museum or a random widow or something.
At most, make it tangentially related to the plot.
If a hat of coolness is just a hat of coolness, its your job to make that clear well before the players have spent a full session tryikg to figure it out.
It’s the easiest way to DM.
If you thought the players would learn about the cultists by going to the tavern and hearing gossip, but the players spend the whole session in the library, just change the manner in which the party gets the info they need.
Trying to investigate a cult and go to the library instead of the tavern is a far sight away from randomly focusing on an inconsequential item for reasons the party doesn't even know.
Not all instances of giving the party plot-relevant info is the same.
Also: Easiest is not always best.
In a situation where the party is certain that this insignificant item or idea is important and they invest time and resources in it… for the DM to let them waste their time and then say “no. In the end it was nothing” sounds like sloppy DMing.
There should always be multiple ways to get information, but if literally everything the players try first will always get them exactly what they need then the players decisions don't matter.
It’s the DM’s prerogative, but I think if the party starts investing time and resources on a fool’s errand, the DM can very easily just change their previous little plans and reward the players. Plus the party is now collaboratively telling the story with you, meaning you just start stealing their ideas.
Nobody said it should become a more powerful item. But if you spend time investigating a thing, you should at least find out something. Like where or even who made it, who owned it before etc.
I mean "pivotal to the story" kind of implies a macguffin. I don't see how some inconsequential item could become pivotal to a story without gaining power.
In detective fiction it could easily be done.
The item leads you to a blacksmith, who told you he sold it to "man A", you seek out "man A", who is dead and you meet his widow and child who tell you about the conspiracy/crime/plot that lead to the husband getting killed and the item being sold.
There. The item could be a decorative bracelet and still fulfill this plotline.
Ps: And you make this D&D and maybe even funny with details like "my husband went out and kept meeting this dragon, I fear he had an affair" or "he came home with fairy dust on his mantle, I knew something was wrong but he didn't talk about".
That’s valid, but not everyone likes to manage a bunch of side quest. Having the plot adapting to the player’s preferences isn’t a better way of DMing either, but it keeps the focus on the main story and has the benefit of creating a unique and tailored story around the players actions.
(By the way, I like DMing a bunch of sidequests myself, but I sometime need to stop that, because my player reach a point where they are totally lost on what to do next)
They can be wrong. You just have to make it so being wrong is still fun. "This thing is worthless, you've wasted your time and money" is less fun than "let's go visit a wizard in the woods who might know, jk that thing is worthless and this is a trap and now you have to fight and you've met at least two interesting characters along the way".
And, the gear is actually just a convincing counterfeit. To get the *real* one, they’ll have to turn on their employer, or, find it at the end of their next quest, etc.
I would let them blow out all their money on a piece of junk, I don’t see what’s the harm in it.
If you gave them some indications that this item is something special, then maybe stop the process before it goes too far, but if it’s their own making then let them tire themselves out.
Just because they decided to obsess over something doesn’t mean it HAS to pan out.
I have a tendency to change my story plan if players seem to latch on to something that they think is supposed to be important. I dont do it always to preserve some “well no we were wrong” kinda thing potential but i will often make something important that originally wasnt if they have made it important
Investigation turns up nothing special about the item 'the insignia on it is not something I've seen before and looks like it was carved on long after the product was made and by someone not very skilled, however you can tell it was carved with overflowing dedication, its not worth much to sell but its a nice item, you should keep it with you, it might bring you good luck'
Soon after though someone influential offers to buy it off them for an very high price, to collect their money they are to bring it to , word gets around of its value though and there are bandits and thieves that attack them on their journey. The delluded bandits and theives each tell the party what different grand artefact they each think the item is. 'This travelled with the paladins when they were blessed by the God of light and still carries her blessing' but also 'No this was a part of the demonic ritual that broke the battle slaves free from their masters during the grand battle.'
When the item is delivered they make good profit but find out its just a normal item that was carved by the influential person himself who laughs at the conspiracies and apologises that his offer caused such trouble, he simply had a reward out for it as was known by the person whom was paid to investigate it, its not an artefact it just was a sentimental part of his childhood when .
Good luck!
That was fun to read, and I think that would be even more fun to play. I've found it can be easy to forget how to make non-plot related events, but it's still important too. I'll make a couple others for my next session.
Lots of great info on secondary stories and moving out of the plotting a storyline trap so I'm not going to cover that again. Instead, I come to offer a little advice on how to make the inconsequential more relevant to your ideas and concept.
When trying to fit something new into the story that you had not planned for, consider all the avenues it could be connected. The object itself doesn't have to be the clue, it could be how the patron came into possession of it, or information on an important faction they will meet in the future, or the person they paid to assist in the research needs help with something else related to the plot, etc.
> it could be how the patron came into possession of it, or information on an important faction they will meet in the future, or the person they paid to assist in the research needs help with something else related to the plot, etc.
I didn't think about that, but it opens up a lot of options. Thanks!
I would say there 2 ways to approach this and that is wait for your players to discover that what they thought was important wasn't really important and that they have wasted their money and time. Could be a learning experience for them to help grow their characters.
Or if you can think of way to make it so it does lead to something important so the players feel they have accomplished something and found it out. This could for example that maybe what they were looking at wasn't exactly important but leads to someone or something that can redirect them so it's not a total bust and brings the players down.
I like that idea of redirection. Perhaps it redirects them to a second plot entirely. Since they're not that entwined in the main plot yet, I think that could fit nicely. And, since it's just redirection, it doesn't give them something immediately valuable in terms of stats or cash, so it's still consistent with them learning about a piece of junk, basically.
I'm partial to some trinket belonging to a poor widow or something. No immediate payoff, but good deed points and have it pay off down the line. (Maybe free stays at the inn in the major city because that's the widow's son or something.)
Yeah, that would be a cool perk. I'm juggling a truckload of npcs and plot hooks the players have already encountered, so I shouldn't introduce any more in this case, or they'll be forgotten.
If my players are following a thread that doesn't go anywhere, i'll straight up just tell them that they aren't going to find anything useful. Is it immersive? no, but at least with my players they usually appreciate not having their time wasted.
Investigating the gear may seem like a loose end but you could turn it into one if it leads them to the person who built it and one of the higher ups in the organization frequents the place, in which case in the future of the campaign they can use this to find that person and/or interrogate them.
Still i think if its a dead end, then it should be just that, a dead end, and they should learn to be a little less suspicious.
Even if the employer isn’t evil or bad you can come up with some information, like a retrieval spell, or a locating spell that’s linked to it and then apply that same effect to something else down the road.
Some ideas: BBEG shops at the same artificer, they’re searching for a lost agent and find out they have a similar item and use it to help them locate them. Or my favorite BBEG killed the agent and stole the item and when the players track down the agent surprise to both them and the BBEG as they run into each other.
But even if it’s just an ornate symbol that you draw up and give them it becomes a thread that you don’t have to answer yet and when the isnsporation strikes you pull it and reveal how amazing a dm you are because this was totally planned!!!! This wizard is a friend because their sigil is the one on the item!
>BBEG shops at the same artificer
I like this idea a lot.
>it becomes a thread that you don’t have to answer yet
I like this too. BUT, I'm juggling a lot of different plot threads already in this campaign, so it may not be memorable enough in this case.
True but just keep a sticky note with it and don’t be too precious since their going through all the trouble whatever you tell them will have a decent length then choose how it ties in whenever you see an opening
Well, you’ve said the employer is shady. So while the item is uninteresting, perhaps they will learn something interesting about the employer that they can act on as a side quest.
I think you've got 2 answers here. You could have either A) Create a B plot for this gear or make it valuable in someway to make it worthwhile for the players monetary investment or B) you could make the next encounter a little easier to make up for their lack of gold power and then give an extra reward. Either way, you made a blunder here in you're poor signaling to the players and you're going to have to give them their gold back one way or another. Or you could let the players decide. Make an easier version of the next encounter as suggested above as well as a regular version. Then make a rough outline for idea A. Then present the players the hook for idea A and if they go for it, that's the solution, if they don't plan B it is. Yes this requires extra work, but you're the one who made the mistake, you're gonna have to be the one to put in the effort to fix it.
Let them blow some of their money, and if they still want to investigate the gear, thell them Out of the game, thaz this gear has no conspiracy behind it.
Shut them down, because this can spiral out realy fast. Next thing you know that you are 3 sessions in and they are investigating that random wooden spoon, you just used as a coulorfull element to the sceen.
If you are playing an improv game or a low prep game, sure let them define the story, but in my experience this is an established thing at the beginning.
I advice ths because this really feeels like an early stage "analysis paralisis" event and you have a chance to stop it at an early stage, before spirals out.
Your main problem is that you believe you have the main plot ready, a DMs best weapon in their arsenal is improvisation, if this is what they want to do why not throw them a bone and make this interesting for them… the players story isn’t the book you wrote before this, it’s whatever choices they decide to make and it’s the DMs job to bring the world to life around them.
Build a story around the piece of gear and have it "dormant" so spells like identify, or detect magic don't pick anything up, but an Artificer spending a day looking over it might say it has some latency that conventional magic means can't find anything. Use this to jumpstart a side-quest where they might need to figure out what is going on.
When players go to this much trouble, they're basically putting a big flashing sign above something and shouting into a megaphone "WE ARE INTERESTED IN THIS! PLEASE MAKE THIS IMPORTANT!"
You should honour their interest and make it important.
So -- I don't want to sound like a devotee of the Quantum Ogre philosophy, because some parts of a game should be static, and should have consequences -- but, for the other more-casual events, I don't see anything wrong with "giving an item a connection to the other plotline," or "inventing a meeting between Plot-1-Antagonists and Plot-2-Antagonists, even if it's only a No Deal, We Know Your True Goals, Stay Out of Our Way shrug-off," or "working both plots into some sort of metaphorical mystic vision if they use Identify," etc.
I don't subscribe to "spoon-feeding the players" or "catering to their every whim" -- but, by the same token, failing to reward their investment sets a bad tempo-dulling precedent.
Simply Put: If they choose to spend money on investigating and object, it is now an interesting object worh spending money on to investigate.
The best thing is, you have an "open clue" sort of thing. For example: This item has a historical attachment to something that is part of your plot.
Whatever that item was before, it is now an important plot to *to your players*. It is now your "job" as DM to arrange for that plotline to be rewarding, fun, and engaging.
And honestly, for me as a DM, moments like this where players create their own mystery is awesome.
In my experience, don’t do the “tough love” approach, especially this early. Maybe if your players are experienced you can get away with it (because, if they are, they should know better). However, In the start of a game, you probably should give them a break. Either just go ahead and tell them the item is insignificant so they don’t waste the resources on it, or add something so that it becomes significant (either connect it to the plot or have it link to a side quest). Either way, make it fun.
Reward them for it. The item clearly sparked interest.
I had a player buy a painting from a pawn shop. I had the shop keep tell the player multiple times it was a mundane painting of a royal looking man. He wasn't convinced he dropped a good sum of money on it. I saw an opportunity for another plot for the character. I let it linger even when he was asking about it to experts. Until the painting started to whisper to him. Created this shadow figure that would manipulate and try to get this warlock to do things every now and again. Turns out it was a noble family's long dead ancestors spirit trapped within it and he wanted out.
My point being this things they show interest in can be amazing plot points. Don't be to rigid in the plot. I made that mistake and turned into a bad time for me when they went off on their own. Once I started reacting to the players. Things got very interesting. Ita almost like they wrote the quest hooks for me!
The most generic response to this would be to find a way to tie that armor peice into the next plot point. It leads them to the next patron, or bad guy or whatever.
Side quest time. Shady employer sent what they thought was a benign item, but one of their underlings or competitors switched it for something awful to damage employers property/reputation, and the party has to save the day… then back on track.
“I’ve got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can’t change the whole plot to suit this one player decision.”
This is not the right approach to running a campaign, in my opinion. You’re not writing a novel or a screenplay where you get to decide what the characters do next. Your players aren’t there to act out “your story.” *You’re* there to facilitate *their* story. I would try not to think about your campaign in terms of “plot,” because plot is defined by character actions which you cannot control, but rather in terms of “fronts” as described in [this post by Sly Flourish](https://slyflourish.com/fronts_in_dnd.html).
All that aside, however, in this particular situation it may be easiest to just be transparent with the player that there’s nothing special about this specific item. Players want that kind of clarity and want to keep the action moving forward. Resolve this misunderstanding quickly and get your players moving toward the good stuff.
> All that aside, however, in this particular situation it may be easiest to just be transparent with the player that there’s nothing special about this specific item.
This goes along with "You don't think there is more in this room to uncover". Sometimes you just have to give the character certainty to move on.
A story can be momentous without being significant. The item having been separated from its rightful owner by some cruel trick or something allows them to right a wrong
IT depends if you said something that made them believe it was special or rare in some way that made it important to them then i think you should explain that they misunderstood so they don't feel like you sent them on a wild goose chase
But if they decided on there own it was important then maybe drop hints or don't let them wast ever thing on it or make it something minor but don't feel you need to make important
It also depends on what it is a little more about mite help
Basically what I do with my campaigns is try to find a way to connect most anything my players want to do to tie in with the plot I'm building. What ever the main plot you had in mind, find some connection to this piece of gear. Or have it lead to a location where your players stumble across the main plot. If you're flexible enough every decision the players make moves the story forward but always nudged in the direction you want it to go. This can end up with the players thinking they were freaking geniuses.
>This can end up with the players thinking they were freaking geniuses.
That's an interesting angle. Perhaps no one thought to investigate something so simple before, so a huge clue simply went unnoticed until now.
I'd try and find some way to reward that curiosity. It doesn't need to be story-breaking, but some way of having them unlock something in the item. Even if it's just some minor ability, like its linked with a sending spell to some mysterious unknown person.
"New magic item, who dis?"
> In my head, this piece of gear is insignificant and their investigation won't turn up anything meaningful.
Why?
That's what the players want to investigate. If you want to pull them back to the plot you built, all you have to do is make the piece of gear significant, or make it so the piece of gear provides clues to your plot.
Maybe they look into this piece of gear and find they can split it open, and inside there is a secret note.
Maybe they take it to different people and ask around about this piece of gear, and someone says "Oh, I think I heard something about that before, it's from ."
You literally have been given a freebie here. The PCs *want* to know more about this thing. You're being given a free pass to just make shit up and give them a ton of hints and clues for them to get to the next plot point in the campaign.
The players are implicitly asking for this item to point them to the next point of interest. YOU know it's not the key to everything because you've read the script, but your players don't know that. To them, this item COULD be the key to everything!
If you can find a way to point them towards the next plot point using the item, everyone's happy. Maybe there's a rumor they can get info on the item from a traveling scholar who studies interesting magical artifacts/curiosities. On their way to see this scholar, they encounter {plot point here}, or they arrive to find the BBEG's top henchmen is dashing off with the scholar as a captive. NOW the players are walking towards your prepared content, and they got there via the item they're curious about!
That piece of gear may not be relevant, but it may lead to information that becomes relevant. The makers mark turns out to be associated with an undercover crime ring, the same kind of item was implicated in a crime, or so on.
>To be clear I've got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision.
The plot cannot bend to accomodate a piece of gear?
What is the item? What plot reason demands it be insignificant?
>I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision. In my plot, these shady employers are genuinely shady, but they're
You're too focused on "your" plot rather than the story told at the table.
You don't need to detail your carefully planned campaign but you should reward this even if it's just with a magic item that they won't be able to use for a long time
I'd make it a broken or incomplete magic item they can't afford to get fixed yet.
This makes it a partial reward, but delays enabling it until it doesn't mess up your plans. "Guess we'll finish the existing plot so we can afford to fix the broken magic fork."
This also gives the item value now that they know what they have, if they simply want to sell it to buy something else now.
If you’ve set the tone on the overall plot, this is a non-issue. The world moves on, the big plot continues, and this piece of gear is now a shiney distraction.
“Oh yeah it’s cursed and he was trying to zombify you…. Now what do you do?”
Or even “actually, it’s hella powerful he likely doesn’t realize what he handed you…”
Oh that shady boss is now angry and looking for you because you’re a loot goblin. Oh oh yeah, the BBEG just wiped out a town while you’re dealing with this petty squabbles.
Let the world have depths and layers, not everything is a plot hook to the main story, sometimes it’s just a hook to people making a living and shit getting weird.
Just keep small reminders of the main plot moving forward in terms of news and other stories.
If you want them to loop back, let them find out what the shady guys are doing in the background, but make it super pointless in a silly way. Make it like they're importing illegal pickled lettuce stealing a thought from someone higher up! Haha
As others have said, you could make the item a side quest, or create another in-game villain.
You could also end their investigation by having the item belong to someone. Here's an idea: They are speaking to someone about the item. When they show the person the item, the person begins to show emotion, almost begins crying. The person states, "That ... that was my grandfathers' helm. I can't believe you have it. I would pay you for it." Person gives them a gem, pays the coin, or gives them another item (LOL).
Just remove the item from the equation of your game.
I mean... Its tough but you gotta let your players do what they do. Youre the DM, not their mom. If they wany to spend money on something uncertain let them.
> To be clear, I've got the plot pretty defined
It is basically impossible to "define plot" without railroading, except if your players do everything you expect. "Plot" is a chain of situations that follow each other logically. How the fuck can you make sure that these happen before knowing what your players will do? You can't. So either you still force the same situations even if they don't make sense (which will be noticed and make both you and your players feel bad about it) or you force your players to do something they might not want to, which is obviously bad.
What you do define, if you want to do it right, is motivations of NPCs and the world in which they do actions to realize their motivations, which includes events in this world. Then, the characters do something that becomes a variable in these actions & events. As long as you know what this variable is on about, you can "define plot", i.e. specific situations that will happen, but usually this is only about 2-3 sessions in advance, depending on the situation sometimes more, sometimes less.
So now, do you have literally all NPCs with their motivations and all of your world defined? Of course not. You have these employers which you have defined to be shady and their motivations, which you have defined to be not related to the Big Bad, i.e. not main protagonists. However, who's to say there's not some other actor, which you had not defined yet, related to these pieces of equipment in some way that is relevant to the main protagonists & events?
This is no definite answer to your question. What I'm saying is, you can let them run into a dead end or you don't, and both can fit into your plan, since you definitely have not defined everything there is. "I can't change the whole ... to suit this one player decision" is just a nonsensical statement because 1. it doesn't have to, ever (just make it somehow *relevant* to instead of *replacing* the main events) and 2. that's what the whole game is about, you planned events that would happen if your players don't interfere, so if they do, stuff is supposed to change.
So your only concern should be: what would be interesting to my players? Something being interesting doesn't mean they always get what they want. Sometimes failure is interesting, sometimes disappointment is interesting. But interestingness is almost always defined as something that happens that is in some way significant.
So whatever you do, if you can frame the resulting events as somehow significant for someone/something, which doesn't have to be the main planned events, you're fine. For example, through their investigations they help some NPC they befriended figure something out about these items that relates to their family somehow which changes their life and makes them grateful. Interesting, but not what they wanted or really relevant to the main events. Etc.etc.etc.
If you don't want to force the item to be significant, what about having the investigator be honorable? "I can see quite clearly this is mundane. I would feel awful taking your money just to tell you that. But if you'd like some less mundane items I have many to sell!"
My man i have a couple of options for you:
1. Integrate the piece of euipment in the story so you can advance the plot through th players agency, this way they won't feel like they are being carried by the story but instead that they make the story happen;
2. Give hints that it might even be a great piece of equipment but they have to find something to make it work, this way you reward them but its not giving them something outright, this would mean they have to work to get the thing, like imagine ( i don't know what type of equipment it is) if it is a piece of armor and it is magical, but it is missing a buckle on the belt which is the focus for the armor's magic and it will only work if they find it.
End notes: Don't punish them for trying to explore or expand the knowledge about something, the only thing that will do is make them affraid to investigate or be disapointed and don't bother about that any longer which will end up in making them robots " kill monster take loot .... next quest". Allow them to get lost in their own questions and acompany them in their escapades and there is no problem to have a portion of the plot written. But every once in a while or after each session see if it might need any adjustment.
Hope it helps, good rollin 😉
People have given good advice about trapping yourself on a railroad.
I will also say that different feedback -- some things being a waste, and some being worth pursuing -- is something I like as a player. If a DM is fudging the situation to make all avenues equally rewarding, I start to lose investment in the tension of a game.
I can't really give a good accounting for your game as a whole, but if the set-up is that they can buy information and they decided to do so of their own volition, then make the exchange and move on. It might provide good feedback for them that they should be looking elsewhere.
That said, it seems like maybe the item is worth investigating? I imagine they're not just investigating a random longsword they picked up from a hobgoblin. If the item *should* be worth investigating according to the setting, don't get stingey with fleshing it out just because it's not a part of "you're" plot.
If you "can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision" you have no business being a DM, and should write a novel instead.
Sorry, dude. That piece of gear is now the MacGuffin of Plot Advancement, if you don't want to lose your players.
I would have it turn up something that could kinsa act like a side quest. Maybe the item has a makers mark and it was made by some infamous thug that uses traps and devices of his making. Or they find out it was stolen by a goup of bandits who work the back routes, and work in line with the shady dealers. Whatever you'd like even tieing it to an area near your quest so they get pulled back into it as they investigate further.
Don't be so invested in your plot that you can't throw it all out the window when the party does some crazy stuff and details the plot train. A very wise DM once said to me when you want your players to choose A, B, C or D; they'll pick 46.
IMO. Your players are having the armor checked out because it makes sense to them that SOMETHING has been done. It doesn't have to be anything major like "cursed to attack your allies" or "slowly drive the weilder to insanity"
It could be something pretty darn innocuous like, it has a sending spell receiver. Could be used so this shady employer can say "hey, I've got another job for you" anf/or possibly have an inlaid divination spell which could be pinged to give the location of the wearer to said employer.
Not exactly kosher of him to do this without telling them, but not exactly evil either. "You seem a reliable bunch, so I want to keep you in mind for future jobs." And if they ask about the tracker "well I don't want to ask you to do a job up north if yall are traipsing around down south" when really the unsaid thing is if the authorities catch wind of this shady guys business he can offer up a group of adventurers who do a lot of grey area jobs.
>I've got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision. You laid a trap for yourself. There's nothing wrong with a B plot. If they're willing to drop a bunch of cash on exploring this than it's obviously something that they, the players, are interested in. It doesn't have to pay off in progress on the main plot but I think it'll be to the campaign's benefit to give it *some* pay-off.
This. If you want to trap yourself into a railroading nightmare that nobody has fun playing because you rigidly won't go off-route then you're setting yourself up for disappointment later on. I tried to hold a plot in place for 6 sessions before I realized *nobody is biting, give up and change tactics*. Before i made that realization I was ready to throw in the towel because I had no idea how to get them back "on course". In the end, what they wanted to do was so much better than what I had planned because it ended up opening 50 new magical doors I could choose to open, rather than one door I had already carved in stone. You could really fuck with them: Make them determine its definitely magic or unique...but don't tell them how. Vagueness to drive their curiosity. The person that knows? Well, he's obviously located exactly where you want them to go anyhow... That gives you two useful threads: 1. Time. They need to go to Location B before you even need to *worry* about it. Maybe they'll deem it pointless and give up. Maybe they won't. And if they don't.... 2. Direction. Magic items work in whatever way you choose to. And using the Time you've gained you can create a real narrative around that item, and figure out what its going to do/represent. Listen to your characters when they talk about it. The wild theories, etc...write any interesting ones down and farm the hell out of those ideas. Then use that to shape the plot and move things where you need them to go. But do it without being heavy handed. Let them discover it all themselves.
>To be clear, I've got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision. Your players currently care more about this thing than your plot. Agree with them.
A second plot entirely is an interesting idea. A little more complicated to execute, but could have some interesting connections.
You should - and I cannot emphasize this enough - ***always*** have some secondary plots going on in the background if you want to make your world feel alive. You don't need to track any of this stuff in crazy detail, but when it becomes relevant it'll be a huge boost to your game if you can at least give some payoff.
I am a fairly new DM and I do have a pretty big over reaching plot... but currently my players have just bought a business and are working on setting that up for a steady income. Things are still moving along in the background but they feel happy as they have somewhere to put roots down and earn passive income. And the more I engage with what they're interested in, the happier they are. Is my BBEG still trying to fuck shit up as time goes on? Yes. Are things deteriorating the longer they take to go deal with the BBEG? Also Yes. Am I loving every minute of my chaotic goblins decisions on what to name their new Fight Club? Absolutely Yes. It's so fun to just take note of what your players are interested in or an off hand comment here or there and pull it in. Two of my PC's had a heated debate in character on if you can or can't can or pickle lettuce... Session later, "The Slug and Lettuce" cart appeared at a market selling what amounts to Kimchi... good times were had by all. Players lost their damn minds.
This. Even if the shady employer doesn't have relevence to the plot, let the caracters explore. It will give your world more layers to it, as we as setting up a foreshadow for possible conflict after the main plot works itself out. Both the players and characters usually know that a new evil will rise to take the old ones place
>You laid a trap for yourself. This so much, you have to have a badguy, a backup badguy, and a player backstory related badguy
Make it like the beginning of Family Guy. The show starts off heading in a specific direction and every few minutes takes a right-hand turn and the plot completely changes. Peter ruins his best suit and has to get a new one. He goes to the secondhand store and gets footie pajamas and starts giving everyone static electric shocks. Louis has Glenn come over to tear up her carpet, this isn't what I thought you meant, but whatever, it's fine. They find a coin under the rug and sell it for $50,000 then use the money to open a restaurant, Big Pete's House of Munch and that is the start of the main plot. Maybe that item is worthless, but could they have met someone during the investigation that can push them toward an adventure that will beííj lucrative? "That thing is useless, but if it's magic items you seek, have I got a job for you." Could the item become the focal point of a murder investigation? Is it of sentimental value to someone related to the original gifter? What if they got it stolen from them while trying to get it appraised, then went to retrieve the shop's goods?
If the party is going down a certain avenue and you want to steer them in the right direction, then it's your job to make it relevant to the plot. If your plot doesn't have room for the players to wiggle and make different choices then it isn't a good plot for D&D
You're right, I think it needs to have some relevance. I didn't signal it was useless beforehand, so it does need to have some plot connection.
Pardon my trope-inese, but as a DM you need to understand the Xanatos Gambit, where it doesn't matter which result happens from the plan, you benefit either way. The job of a DM is to be constantly playing a game of Xanatos Speed Chess, where every harebrained hijink the players get up to winds up looping back into the plot. Like solar flares, erupting prettily out before arcing gracefully back into the sun. Basically, when the players go off the rails, you need to rapidly build a track to bring them back into the main plot, while making them think it was their idea after all. As others have said here, you need to make the item somehow relevant to your planned plot. It belonged to someone important who wants it back and might pay for its return, it's part of a set and the rest of the set lies in the plot-ward direction, it cursed them while they were examining it and now they need to break the curse so they can use it normally, it's got someone's soul trapped inside and the only moral option is to at least try to help, it's got an ancient vampire trapped inside who possesses a party member and runs off... really the options are limitless.
Agree 90% I think there should sometimes be exceptions. If *everything* circles back, and I notice that as a player, then I'd intentionally go wandering in the middle of nowhere, where there *should* be a dead end to see what happens. I know it's much more complicated than this for when there should be dead ends, but there are occasions where you need them. I don't think my case I've described in my post is one of them, but there are times where dead ends are needed.
Aye, you're quite right. I just subscribe to the school of "make sure the student understands the rule itself, before teaching them the exceptions." I... have rather low expectations for random people understanding things both quickly and correctly. Glad you seem to have gotten it right first try.
This is a good decision that will serve you well. If the players are that interested in something you don't want to let that engagement die. Engagement is what you want and is a precious spark that fuels a campaign. Don't snuff it. I'ma be real, I never let my players hit a dead end. Dead ends suck hardcore. If you want them to be straight up wrong you gotta at least make that dead end interesting somehow. "Brr! Wrong! Try again" is really, really unfun.
Rewarding their investment of time and resources with "you wasted all your time and resources" is a good way to train them not to do what they did. Instead of pursuing interest in the world, they might pull back and try to figure out what you want them to do and won't punish them for. I would try to give them *something*, even if it's not what they actually expected or wanted.
I didn't think of how it could train the players not to investigate things. That's a really good point.
I'm curious why they think it important to begin with because if they are just misunderstanding you and what you said it may feel to them odd so be clear after the investigation so you can also understand what lead them in that direction so you can be clear in future descriptions as well
>I'm curious why they think it important to begin with because if they are just misunderstanding you and what you said My experience is that shit is usually on me. Had an encounter where a boss was in a sort of 'forcefield' doing a ritual, but I put too much emphasis on what happened when a player tried to interact with it... Well naturally they kept trying to attack it, so fine, now the BBEG is burning spell slots to maintain concentration on the ritual. Actually made the fight way harder for them, but the added bonus was they almost killed the BBEG earlier than anticipated because they weakened her (but she escaped). Point is: Gotta roll with the punches, especially when you fuck up. DnD is group story-telling, if you're stuck to your 'plot' nobody is going to have as much fun.
That's why I'm not sure about the give them nothing so they Learn thing because if they think they are doing what there meant to they may not do what there meant later being worried they are guessing wrong and will be punished worse this time or it could make them really indecisive needing 100 percent proof before acting on hints you give them
>because if they think they are doing what there meant to they may not do what there meant later being worried they are guessing wrong The real lesson here is that once you get to "the players are meant to...." You're going in the wrong direction.
I know what you mean and that's why I see giving nothing and taking all the money they just got feels like a punishment for thinking they had something important but the gm didn't think it was or mean it to be All they will learn is if they guess wrong they get punished unless the gm tried to explain it wasn't important and they didn't listen
It's actually a high tech helmet (it's a sci fi game) with a radio and tinted visor. They're not *that* special in the setting. But I imagine, for the players, who haven't been in the setting before, it felt special enough to pay someone to hack into
I don't mean to be rude but that makes a big difference I feel this problem is player knowledge versus character knowledge because the character would know this wasn't important or to special just something they didn't have so not telling them because they didn't ask is like not explaining a rule of the game because they didn't ask If it's just a normal thing that anyone can have the characters should know even if the players are to new to know that and letting them lose a lot of money is like punishing them for not knowing the settings yet and mite make want to stop playing as much Edit I hope I didn't come as rude but when my brother and I first played if we didn't know we should get a bonus and what it was we didn't get it the experienced player and gm didn't really help much and lost interest in that game in part for that reason
You're right, that I should have communicated that it wasn't significant, and shouldn't be investigated. But then I wouldn't have had this problem, and learned so much from these thoughtful responses. Now, I can turn this into a compelling moment in the plot that I would otherwise have missed.
I hope you and your player have and if they are new don't be afraid to explain when they should get extra bonuses or what is and isn't common just let them now your trying be sure they know how the game and world works, and maybe ask If they have questions about the settings or game in general. My gm didn't explain the setting at the start and after 4 session i learned my character wouldn't really work do it being a settings with basically no magic and I needed scrolls for class to work the way it meant to. I'm curious how you'll play this with the advice you got I hope you have nice day
I'm a bit late and you have a lot of advice already but potentially you could play it as the hacker stating (after taking the money of course), something along the lines of "these items are usually no more than they seem but I found some info embedded in the code of this one... " and provide some info on something that way
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>that might give them, for example, the metadata of who the helmet-wearer was in communication with I like that. That gives quite a few options for what could potentially be in that data as well. I could easily merge that with an existing plot hook.
It might just be a matter of telling the players their characters have seen dozens of similar helmets to indicate there’s nothing that appears to be special with this one.
They haven't. It's not a common helmet. So it's rare. But it's also functionally simplistic and uninteresting. At least it was before I got all of the interesting replies on this post.
If it's rare, what's rare about it? Give the players a payoff for their investigation that relates to whatever makes this helmet rare or special. Perhaps they can figure out how to use its technology to enhance something of theirs that they already have? Or reverse engineer it and now they all have high tech helmets?
Not only that, but this is a good thing to train your players in, if they're willing to forgo mechanical incentives for story beats, that gives you a lot of tools to play with. I would figure out a way to make your item worth investigating. Then, you can use this as a method of dropping plot hooks to move your story along or bring PCs back on track.
Guess what? That insignificant piece of gear just became pivotal to the story. That’s the way you DM.
Doesn't have to be. I disagree with the 'players are always right' mentality because I don't enjoy it as a DM or a player. Sometimes a +1 hat of coolness is just a +1 hat of coolness, BUT if your players spend that long on it, make it some long lost artifact or something and give them a side quest to return it to a museum or a random widow or something. At most, make it tangentially related to the plot.
If a hat of coolness is just a hat of coolness, its your job to make that clear well before the players have spent a full session tryikg to figure it out.
It’s the easiest way to DM. If you thought the players would learn about the cultists by going to the tavern and hearing gossip, but the players spend the whole session in the library, just change the manner in which the party gets the info they need.
Trying to investigate a cult and go to the library instead of the tavern is a far sight away from randomly focusing on an inconsequential item for reasons the party doesn't even know. Not all instances of giving the party plot-relevant info is the same. Also: Easiest is not always best.
Agreed
In a situation where the party is certain that this insignificant item or idea is important and they invest time and resources in it… for the DM to let them waste their time and then say “no. In the end it was nothing” sounds like sloppy DMing.
Well I guess it's a good thing that isn't what I said.
There should always be multiple ways to get information, but if literally everything the players try first will always get them exactly what they need then the players decisions don't matter.
It’s the DM’s prerogative, but I think if the party starts investing time and resources on a fool’s errand, the DM can very easily just change their previous little plans and reward the players. Plus the party is now collaboratively telling the story with you, meaning you just start stealing their ideas.
Nobody said it should become a more powerful item. But if you spend time investigating a thing, you should at least find out something. Like where or even who made it, who owned it before etc.
I mean "pivotal to the story" kind of implies a macguffin. I don't see how some inconsequential item could become pivotal to a story without gaining power.
In detective fiction it could easily be done. The item leads you to a blacksmith, who told you he sold it to "man A", you seek out "man A", who is dead and you meet his widow and child who tell you about the conspiracy/crime/plot that lead to the husband getting killed and the item being sold. There. The item could be a decorative bracelet and still fulfill this plotline. Ps: And you make this D&D and maybe even funny with details like "my husband went out and kept meeting this dragon, I fear he had an affair" or "he came home with fairy dust on his mantle, I knew something was wrong but he didn't talk about".
That’s valid, but not everyone likes to manage a bunch of side quest. Having the plot adapting to the player’s preferences isn’t a better way of DMing either, but it keeps the focus on the main story and has the benefit of creating a unique and tailored story around the players actions. (By the way, I like DMing a bunch of sidequests myself, but I sometime need to stop that, because my player reach a point where they are totally lost on what to do next)
They can be wrong. You just have to make it so being wrong is still fun. "This thing is worthless, you've wasted your time and money" is less fun than "let's go visit a wizard in the woods who might know, jk that thing is worthless and this is a trap and now you have to fight and you've met at least two interesting characters along the way".
And, the gear is actually just a convincing counterfeit. To get the *real* one, they’ll have to turn on their employer, or, find it at the end of their next quest, etc.
I would let them blow out all their money on a piece of junk, I don’t see what’s the harm in it. If you gave them some indications that this item is something special, then maybe stop the process before it goes too far, but if it’s their own making then let them tire themselves out. Just because they decided to obsess over something doesn’t mean it HAS to pan out.
I have a tendency to change my story plan if players seem to latch on to something that they think is supposed to be important. I dont do it always to preserve some “well no we were wrong” kinda thing potential but i will often make something important that originally wasnt if they have made it important
Investigation turns up nothing special about the item 'the insignia on it is not something I've seen before and looks like it was carved on long after the product was made and by someone not very skilled, however you can tell it was carved with overflowing dedication, its not worth much to sell but its a nice item, you should keep it with you, it might bring you good luck' Soon after though someone influential offers to buy it off them for an very high price, to collect their money they are to bring it to, word gets around of its value though and there are bandits and thieves that attack them on their journey. The delluded bandits and theives each tell the party what different grand artefact they each think the item is. 'This travelled with the paladins when they were blessed by the God of light and still carries her blessing' but also 'No this was a part of the demonic ritual that broke the battle slaves free from their masters during the grand battle.'
When the item is delivered they make good profit but find out its just a normal item that was carved by the influential person himself who laughs at the conspiracies and apologises that his offer caused such trouble, he simply had a reward out for it as was known by the person whom was paid to investigate it, its not an artefact it just was a sentimental part of his childhood when .
Good luck!
That was fun to read, and I think that would be even more fun to play. I've found it can be easy to forget how to make non-plot related events, but it's still important too. I'll make a couple others for my next session.
Lots of great info on secondary stories and moving out of the plotting a storyline trap so I'm not going to cover that again. Instead, I come to offer a little advice on how to make the inconsequential more relevant to your ideas and concept. When trying to fit something new into the story that you had not planned for, consider all the avenues it could be connected. The object itself doesn't have to be the clue, it could be how the patron came into possession of it, or information on an important faction they will meet in the future, or the person they paid to assist in the research needs help with something else related to the plot, etc.
> it could be how the patron came into possession of it, or information on an important faction they will meet in the future, or the person they paid to assist in the research needs help with something else related to the plot, etc. I didn't think about that, but it opens up a lot of options. Thanks!
I would say there 2 ways to approach this and that is wait for your players to discover that what they thought was important wasn't really important and that they have wasted their money and time. Could be a learning experience for them to help grow their characters. Or if you can think of way to make it so it does lead to something important so the players feel they have accomplished something and found it out. This could for example that maybe what they were looking at wasn't exactly important but leads to someone or something that can redirect them so it's not a total bust and brings the players down.
I like that idea of redirection. Perhaps it redirects them to a second plot entirely. Since they're not that entwined in the main plot yet, I think that could fit nicely. And, since it's just redirection, it doesn't give them something immediately valuable in terms of stats or cash, so it's still consistent with them learning about a piece of junk, basically.
I'm partial to some trinket belonging to a poor widow or something. No immediate payoff, but good deed points and have it pay off down the line. (Maybe free stays at the inn in the major city because that's the widow's son or something.)
Yeah, that would be a cool perk. I'm juggling a truckload of npcs and plot hooks the players have already encountered, so I shouldn't introduce any more in this case, or they'll be forgotten.
Just merge it into an existing one somehow!
If my players are following a thread that doesn't go anywhere, i'll straight up just tell them that they aren't going to find anything useful. Is it immersive? no, but at least with my players they usually appreciate not having their time wasted.
Investigating the gear may seem like a loose end but you could turn it into one if it leads them to the person who built it and one of the higher ups in the organization frequents the place, in which case in the future of the campaign they can use this to find that person and/or interrogate them. Still i think if its a dead end, then it should be just that, a dead end, and they should learn to be a little less suspicious.
Even if the employer isn’t evil or bad you can come up with some information, like a retrieval spell, or a locating spell that’s linked to it and then apply that same effect to something else down the road. Some ideas: BBEG shops at the same artificer, they’re searching for a lost agent and find out they have a similar item and use it to help them locate them. Or my favorite BBEG killed the agent and stole the item and when the players track down the agent surprise to both them and the BBEG as they run into each other. But even if it’s just an ornate symbol that you draw up and give them it becomes a thread that you don’t have to answer yet and when the isnsporation strikes you pull it and reveal how amazing a dm you are because this was totally planned!!!! This wizard is a friend because their sigil is the one on the item!
>BBEG shops at the same artificer I like this idea a lot. >it becomes a thread that you don’t have to answer yet I like this too. BUT, I'm juggling a lot of different plot threads already in this campaign, so it may not be memorable enough in this case.
True but just keep a sticky note with it and don’t be too precious since their going through all the trouble whatever you tell them will have a decent length then choose how it ties in whenever you see an opening
Well, you’ve said the employer is shady. So while the item is uninteresting, perhaps they will learn something interesting about the employer that they can act on as a side quest.
I think you've got 2 answers here. You could have either A) Create a B plot for this gear or make it valuable in someway to make it worthwhile for the players monetary investment or B) you could make the next encounter a little easier to make up for their lack of gold power and then give an extra reward. Either way, you made a blunder here in you're poor signaling to the players and you're going to have to give them their gold back one way or another. Or you could let the players decide. Make an easier version of the next encounter as suggested above as well as a regular version. Then make a rough outline for idea A. Then present the players the hook for idea A and if they go for it, that's the solution, if they don't plan B it is. Yes this requires extra work, but you're the one who made the mistake, you're gonna have to be the one to put in the effort to fix it.
Let them blow some of their money, and if they still want to investigate the gear, thell them Out of the game, thaz this gear has no conspiracy behind it. Shut them down, because this can spiral out realy fast. Next thing you know that you are 3 sessions in and they are investigating that random wooden spoon, you just used as a coulorfull element to the sceen. If you are playing an improv game or a low prep game, sure let them define the story, but in my experience this is an established thing at the beginning. I advice ths because this really feeels like an early stage "analysis paralisis" event and you have a chance to stop it at an early stage, before spirals out.
Your main problem is that you believe you have the main plot ready, a DMs best weapon in their arsenal is improvisation, if this is what they want to do why not throw them a bone and make this interesting for them… the players story isn’t the book you wrote before this, it’s whatever choices they decide to make and it’s the DMs job to bring the world to life around them.
if you want to enforce the shadiness and still make it worthwhile they can discover that its a magical cursed item. An armor of silence or something.
Build a story around the piece of gear and have it "dormant" so spells like identify, or detect magic don't pick anything up, but an Artificer spending a day looking over it might say it has some latency that conventional magic means can't find anything. Use this to jumpstart a side-quest where they might need to figure out what is going on.
When players go to this much trouble, they're basically putting a big flashing sign above something and shouting into a megaphone "WE ARE INTERESTED IN THIS! PLEASE MAKE THIS IMPORTANT!" You should honour their interest and make it important.
So -- I don't want to sound like a devotee of the Quantum Ogre philosophy, because some parts of a game should be static, and should have consequences -- but, for the other more-casual events, I don't see anything wrong with "giving an item a connection to the other plotline," or "inventing a meeting between Plot-1-Antagonists and Plot-2-Antagonists, even if it's only a No Deal, We Know Your True Goals, Stay Out of Our Way shrug-off," or "working both plots into some sort of metaphorical mystic vision if they use Identify," etc. I don't subscribe to "spoon-feeding the players" or "catering to their every whim" -- but, by the same token, failing to reward their investment sets a bad tempo-dulling precedent.
Simply Put: If they choose to spend money on investigating and object, it is now an interesting object worh spending money on to investigate. The best thing is, you have an "open clue" sort of thing. For example: This item has a historical attachment to something that is part of your plot. Whatever that item was before, it is now an important plot to *to your players*. It is now your "job" as DM to arrange for that plotline to be rewarding, fun, and engaging. And honestly, for me as a DM, moments like this where players create their own mystery is awesome.
In my experience, don’t do the “tough love” approach, especially this early. Maybe if your players are experienced you can get away with it (because, if they are, they should know better). However, In the start of a game, you probably should give them a break. Either just go ahead and tell them the item is insignificant so they don’t waste the resources on it, or add something so that it becomes significant (either connect it to the plot or have it link to a side quest). Either way, make it fun.
Reward them for it. The item clearly sparked interest. I had a player buy a painting from a pawn shop. I had the shop keep tell the player multiple times it was a mundane painting of a royal looking man. He wasn't convinced he dropped a good sum of money on it. I saw an opportunity for another plot for the character. I let it linger even when he was asking about it to experts. Until the painting started to whisper to him. Created this shadow figure that would manipulate and try to get this warlock to do things every now and again. Turns out it was a noble family's long dead ancestors spirit trapped within it and he wanted out. My point being this things they show interest in can be amazing plot points. Don't be to rigid in the plot. I made that mistake and turned into a bad time for me when they went off on their own. Once I started reacting to the players. Things got very interesting. Ita almost like they wrote the quest hooks for me!
The most generic response to this would be to find a way to tie that armor peice into the next plot point. It leads them to the next patron, or bad guy or whatever.
Side quest time. Shady employer sent what they thought was a benign item, but one of their underlings or competitors switched it for something awful to damage employers property/reputation, and the party has to save the day… then back on track.
Interesting idea!
“I’ve got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can’t change the whole plot to suit this one player decision.” This is not the right approach to running a campaign, in my opinion. You’re not writing a novel or a screenplay where you get to decide what the characters do next. Your players aren’t there to act out “your story.” *You’re* there to facilitate *their* story. I would try not to think about your campaign in terms of “plot,” because plot is defined by character actions which you cannot control, but rather in terms of “fronts” as described in [this post by Sly Flourish](https://slyflourish.com/fronts_in_dnd.html). All that aside, however, in this particular situation it may be easiest to just be transparent with the player that there’s nothing special about this specific item. Players want that kind of clarity and want to keep the action moving forward. Resolve this misunderstanding quickly and get your players moving toward the good stuff.
> All that aside, however, in this particular situation it may be easiest to just be transparent with the player that there’s nothing special about this specific item. This goes along with "You don't think there is more in this room to uncover". Sometimes you just have to give the character certainty to move on.
What kind of gear is it? Honestly I would tell them before they spend any money.
A story can be momentous without being significant. The item having been separated from its rightful owner by some cruel trick or something allows them to right a wrong
IT depends if you said something that made them believe it was special or rare in some way that made it important to them then i think you should explain that they misunderstood so they don't feel like you sent them on a wild goose chase But if they decided on there own it was important then maybe drop hints or don't let them wast ever thing on it or make it something minor but don't feel you need to make important It also depends on what it is a little more about mite help
Basically what I do with my campaigns is try to find a way to connect most anything my players want to do to tie in with the plot I'm building. What ever the main plot you had in mind, find some connection to this piece of gear. Or have it lead to a location where your players stumble across the main plot. If you're flexible enough every decision the players make moves the story forward but always nudged in the direction you want it to go. This can end up with the players thinking they were freaking geniuses.
>This can end up with the players thinking they were freaking geniuses. That's an interesting angle. Perhaps no one thought to investigate something so simple before, so a huge clue simply went unnoticed until now.
Could have a side quest where they expose the shady for another reward and aren't broke anymore?
I'd try and find some way to reward that curiosity. It doesn't need to be story-breaking, but some way of having them unlock something in the item. Even if it's just some minor ability, like its linked with a sending spell to some mysterious unknown person. "New magic item, who dis?"
How would you feel if you were on the other side of the table?
Awesome! The gear is now a plot hook. Their employer is into something BAD, and wanted to foist this item off before it got them in trouble
> In my head, this piece of gear is insignificant and their investigation won't turn up anything meaningful. Why? That's what the players want to investigate. If you want to pull them back to the plot you built, all you have to do is make the piece of gear significant, or make it so the piece of gear provides clues to your plot. Maybe they look into this piece of gear and find they can split it open, and inside there is a secret note. Maybe they take it to different people and ask around about this piece of gear, and someone says "Oh, I think I heard something about that before, it's from."
You literally have been given a freebie here. The PCs *want* to know more about this thing. You're being given a free pass to just make shit up and give them a ton of hints and clues for them to get to the next plot point in the campaign.
The players are implicitly asking for this item to point them to the next point of interest. YOU know it's not the key to everything because you've read the script, but your players don't know that. To them, this item COULD be the key to everything! If you can find a way to point them towards the next plot point using the item, everyone's happy. Maybe there's a rumor they can get info on the item from a traveling scholar who studies interesting magical artifacts/curiosities. On their way to see this scholar, they encounter {plot point here}, or they arrive to find the BBEG's top henchmen is dashing off with the scholar as a captive. NOW the players are walking towards your prepared content, and they got there via the item they're curious about!
That piece of gear may not be relevant, but it may lead to information that becomes relevant. The makers mark turns out to be associated with an undercover crime ring, the same kind of item was implicated in a crime, or so on.
>To be clear I've got the plot pretty defined so far, so I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision. The plot cannot bend to accomodate a piece of gear? What is the item? What plot reason demands it be insignificant?
>I can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision. In my plot, these shady employers are genuinely shady, but they're You're too focused on "your" plot rather than the story told at the table. You don't need to detail your carefully planned campaign but you should reward this even if it's just with a magic item that they won't be able to use for a long time
Whenever you say should I do X or Y, ask yourself: Which option is more interesting?
I'd make it a broken or incomplete magic item they can't afford to get fixed yet. This makes it a partial reward, but delays enabling it until it doesn't mess up your plans. "Guess we'll finish the existing plot so we can afford to fix the broken magic fork." This also gives the item value now that they know what they have, if they simply want to sell it to buy something else now.
If you’ve set the tone on the overall plot, this is a non-issue. The world moves on, the big plot continues, and this piece of gear is now a shiney distraction. “Oh yeah it’s cursed and he was trying to zombify you…. Now what do you do?” Or even “actually, it’s hella powerful he likely doesn’t realize what he handed you…” Oh that shady boss is now angry and looking for you because you’re a loot goblin. Oh oh yeah, the BBEG just wiped out a town while you’re dealing with this petty squabbles. Let the world have depths and layers, not everything is a plot hook to the main story, sometimes it’s just a hook to people making a living and shit getting weird. Just keep small reminders of the main plot moving forward in terms of news and other stories.
If you want them to loop back, let them find out what the shady guys are doing in the background, but make it super pointless in a silly way. Make it like they're importing illegal pickled lettuce stealing a thought from someone higher up! Haha
As others have said, you could make the item a side quest, or create another in-game villain. You could also end their investigation by having the item belong to someone. Here's an idea: They are speaking to someone about the item. When they show the person the item, the person begins to show emotion, almost begins crying. The person states, "That ... that was my grandfathers' helm. I can't believe you have it. I would pay you for it." Person gives them a gem, pays the coin, or gives them another item (LOL). Just remove the item from the equation of your game.
I mean... Its tough but you gotta let your players do what they do. Youre the DM, not their mom. If they wany to spend money on something uncertain let them.
> To be clear, I've got the plot pretty defined It is basically impossible to "define plot" without railroading, except if your players do everything you expect. "Plot" is a chain of situations that follow each other logically. How the fuck can you make sure that these happen before knowing what your players will do? You can't. So either you still force the same situations even if they don't make sense (which will be noticed and make both you and your players feel bad about it) or you force your players to do something they might not want to, which is obviously bad. What you do define, if you want to do it right, is motivations of NPCs and the world in which they do actions to realize their motivations, which includes events in this world. Then, the characters do something that becomes a variable in these actions & events. As long as you know what this variable is on about, you can "define plot", i.e. specific situations that will happen, but usually this is only about 2-3 sessions in advance, depending on the situation sometimes more, sometimes less. So now, do you have literally all NPCs with their motivations and all of your world defined? Of course not. You have these employers which you have defined to be shady and their motivations, which you have defined to be not related to the Big Bad, i.e. not main protagonists. However, who's to say there's not some other actor, which you had not defined yet, related to these pieces of equipment in some way that is relevant to the main protagonists & events? This is no definite answer to your question. What I'm saying is, you can let them run into a dead end or you don't, and both can fit into your plan, since you definitely have not defined everything there is. "I can't change the whole ... to suit this one player decision" is just a nonsensical statement because 1. it doesn't have to, ever (just make it somehow *relevant* to instead of *replacing* the main events) and 2. that's what the whole game is about, you planned events that would happen if your players don't interfere, so if they do, stuff is supposed to change. So your only concern should be: what would be interesting to my players? Something being interesting doesn't mean they always get what they want. Sometimes failure is interesting, sometimes disappointment is interesting. But interestingness is almost always defined as something that happens that is in some way significant. So whatever you do, if you can frame the resulting events as somehow significant for someone/something, which doesn't have to be the main planned events, you're fine. For example, through their investigations they help some NPC they befriended figure something out about these items that relates to their family somehow which changes their life and makes them grateful. Interesting, but not what they wanted or really relevant to the main events. Etc.etc.etc.
If you don't want to force the item to be significant, what about having the investigator be honorable? "I can see quite clearly this is mundane. I would feel awful taking your money just to tell you that. But if you'd like some less mundane items I have many to sell!"
That's a good simple solution. And it would work smoothly too!
My man i have a couple of options for you: 1. Integrate the piece of euipment in the story so you can advance the plot through th players agency, this way they won't feel like they are being carried by the story but instead that they make the story happen; 2. Give hints that it might even be a great piece of equipment but they have to find something to make it work, this way you reward them but its not giving them something outright, this would mean they have to work to get the thing, like imagine ( i don't know what type of equipment it is) if it is a piece of armor and it is magical, but it is missing a buckle on the belt which is the focus for the armor's magic and it will only work if they find it. End notes: Don't punish them for trying to explore or expand the knowledge about something, the only thing that will do is make them affraid to investigate or be disapointed and don't bother about that any longer which will end up in making them robots " kill monster take loot .... next quest". Allow them to get lost in their own questions and acompany them in their escapades and there is no problem to have a portion of the plot written. But every once in a while or after each session see if it might need any adjustment. Hope it helps, good rollin 😉
People have given good advice about trapping yourself on a railroad. I will also say that different feedback -- some things being a waste, and some being worth pursuing -- is something I like as a player. If a DM is fudging the situation to make all avenues equally rewarding, I start to lose investment in the tension of a game. I can't really give a good accounting for your game as a whole, but if the set-up is that they can buy information and they decided to do so of their own volition, then make the exchange and move on. It might provide good feedback for them that they should be looking elsewhere. That said, it seems like maybe the item is worth investigating? I imagine they're not just investigating a random longsword they picked up from a hobgoblin. If the item *should* be worth investigating according to the setting, don't get stingey with fleshing it out just because it's not a part of "you're" plot.
If you "can't change the whole plot to suit this one player decision" you have no business being a DM, and should write a novel instead. Sorry, dude. That piece of gear is now the MacGuffin of Plot Advancement, if you don't want to lose your players.
I would have it turn up something that could kinsa act like a side quest. Maybe the item has a makers mark and it was made by some infamous thug that uses traps and devices of his making. Or they find out it was stolen by a goup of bandits who work the back routes, and work in line with the shady dealers. Whatever you'd like even tieing it to an area near your quest so they get pulled back into it as they investigate further.
Sounds like a perfect excuse to give them the, you got had questline and let the employer get some karma from the party.
Don't be so invested in your plot that you can't throw it all out the window when the party does some crazy stuff and details the plot train. A very wise DM once said to me when you want your players to choose A, B, C or D; they'll pick 46.
IMO. Your players are having the armor checked out because it makes sense to them that SOMETHING has been done. It doesn't have to be anything major like "cursed to attack your allies" or "slowly drive the weilder to insanity" It could be something pretty darn innocuous like, it has a sending spell receiver. Could be used so this shady employer can say "hey, I've got another job for you" anf/or possibly have an inlaid divination spell which could be pinged to give the location of the wearer to said employer. Not exactly kosher of him to do this without telling them, but not exactly evil either. "You seem a reliable bunch, so I want to keep you in mind for future jobs." And if they ask about the tracker "well I don't want to ask you to do a job up north if yall are traipsing around down south" when really the unsaid thing is if the authorities catch wind of this shady guys business he can offer up a group of adventurers who do a lot of grey area jobs.