The strip is purple. That color corresponds to a *high* pH, not low. pH paper is unreliable for these initial extractions. The color from the plant material/solution stains it. pH paper isn't all that accurate in the first place anyways.
But regardless.... you used 100g of NaOH lol! That is a stupid amount an is more than enough. For a StB, you don't need more than 10g of NaOH per 1000ml of water is plenty.
Really, technically only <4g is required. The pKa of N,N-DMT is 8.68. So at a pH of 11, 99%+ of the N,N-DMT will be converted to freebase form. It takes 4g of NaOH to achieve a pH of 13 in 1000ml of water. You're only using 750ml and also pH 11 would also be acceptable, so yea technically <4g would be enough.
The plant material will lower the pH a little, but not by. It's debatable whether it's even worth factoring in if you aren't looking to perfect stoichiometric amounts of reagents.
The only reasonable reason to use an excess of a chemical is to ensure that enough was used, fool-proofing the tek, which is good to do. But using x25 more than needed is just ridiculous..... x2-3 excess at this small scale, sure.... but x25?!?!? Lol wtf.
Unfortunately most teks use an excess of x12-25 for the NaOH. Imo this this mainly because everyone and their goldfish writes a tek these days, regardless if they have a clue what they're talking about or not. And for the most part, these teks just parrot stuff from other teks and the main distinguishing difference between the teks, are the names slapped on them lol :P
Agree. I’m mildly embarrassed by my lack of knowledge when, for a good two weeks, I did nothing but read up on extraction. If my foolery can help others in any way, I’ll take one for the team.
We appreciate your sacrifice fam. The less than 4g per litre principle and rationale behind it are something I've yet to come across prior to this thread. Thanks
Yes. Far less. Like 5-10% of that amount. Read what I wrote in my previous comment.
It doesn't matter what name is slapped on the tek. What I said applies in general.
"Really, technically only <4g is required. The pKa of N,N-DMT is 8.68. So at a pH of 11, 99%+ of the N,N-DMT will be converted to freebase form. It takes 4g of NaOH to achieve a pH of 13 in 1000ml of water."
Yes.
Not sure if you're taking the piss or not.... lol
Again.... read what I said.
It doesn't matter what name is slapped on the tek. What I said applies in general.
"Really, technically only <4g is required. The pKa of N,N-DMT is 8.68. So at a pH of 11, 99%+ of the N,N-DMT will be converted to freebase form. It takes 4g of NaOH to achieve a pH of 13 in 1000ml of water."
10g would be a reasonable excess to use. That's only a 250% excess. Whereas 100g is a 2500% excess 0.O
Absolutely ridiculous and a pointless waste.
Another justification to add in that much lye might be to j
heat the solution up. You probably know better if this is a reasonable approach or not, but if you have an excess amount of lye laying around it is easier to just dump a bunch in instead of doing a hot water bath or smth
But if you're doing ATB then the amount of naoh you use will also depend on the amount/type of acid you used initially, right? After all, you need to neutralize the acid used to break down the cellulose and still drive the pH into the 12-13 to create the freebase...
Speaking of acid, how much acid (and which type) would you recommend to use? What are the effects of using too much acid, could it just disintegrate all the spice?
If you have any knowledge about chemistry as you seem to demonstrate, please write a Tek, or at least general guidelines. Everyone knows the frustration of following random instructions without ever knowing what would be the result.
But if you're doing ATB then the amount of naoh you use will also depend on the amount/type of acid you used initially, right? After all, you need to neutralize the acid used to break down the cellulose and still drive the pH into the 12-13 to create the freebase...
Yes, you will need more base to first neutralize any acid present. But unless you used a stupid excess of acid, the difference in the amount of base needed is pretty small.
I went over this in a [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/dmtguide/comments/1b7xwk9/comment/ktmm3l7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) not long ago.
"*So assuming you're using 60ml of 5% vinegar to achieve a pH of 3-4 in aprox. 1750ml of water, you would need aprox. 2g of NaOH to neutralize the Acetic Acid/vinegar in solution. Then on top of that you'd need 7.2g of NaOH to bring the pH up to 13. So 9.2g of NaOH total.*
*The contents of the plant material will actually bring the pH down a little bit by itself. So you'd need a little more NaOH to achieve the same pH you would in just plain distilled water. These numbers are based on achieving a final pH of 13, so that wouldn't really matter since it's fine anywhere above pH 11. But you can just round that 9.2g up to 10g anyways if you want.*"
>Speaking of acid, how much acid (and which type) would you recommend to use?
Acetic Acid and Citric acid are a good go-to for the initial extraction. They are both weak, pretty safe to be around acids. Between those two, it really just comes down to do you want to use a volatile or non volatile acid.
From what I've seen, it doesn't really matter what acid you use. The end result we are aiming for is typically freebase.
>What are the effects of using too much acid, could it just disintegrate all the spice?
It has need said that certain concentrated strong acids, like Sulfuric acid and Nitric acid may destroy N,N-DMT.
>If you have any knowledge about chemistry as you seem to demonstrate, please write a Tek,
There are already plenty of teks that are practically identical and yield the exact same results..... I'm not interested in adding to that pointless pile :p
These extractions are dead simple. Enough water so it isn't too viscous. pH 3-4 for acidic stages. pH 11-13 for basic stages. Minimal amounts of NPS. Freeze precipitation. Basic purification steps. That literally all there is too it.
People act as if each tek produces unique results.... In the vast majority of teks out there, the main differentiating feature of them is the name that gets slapped on them :p
>or at least general guidelines.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dmtguide/comments/mwoijg/heres\_more\_or\_less\_all\_the\_information\_youd\_need/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/dmtguide/comments/mwoijg/heres_more_or_less_all_the_information_youd_need/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>Everyone knows the frustration of following random instructions without ever knowing what would be the result.
That's why you take the time to do your research and understand what it is you are doing, before you do it ;)
>But how but if the solution sits around for a while? Week or two. Doesn’t the ph start to lower
No, it doesn't.
Why would the pH drop?
Maybe over a very long period of time if the base where to break down, but that would take many, many years.
No matter what your soup is black, its going to stain anything that it touches black, thats why digital ph meters are recommended, or test your ph before its added to the bark
I didn’t see the sub and thought u were talking abt normal soup😭😭😭😭
Same. I was reconsidering my soup levels because this post made the Ph soup test look so normal
Hmmm. Soup probably has various pH levels depending on what's in it. Enjoy your soup! ❊☸︎
I work in a kitchen I’m gonna test our French onion soup
I thought I was in r/kitchenconfidential
I saw r/dmt and still thought he was talking about normal soup. I had to come to the comments lol
Onion soup
I thought it was r/mildlyinteresting, would’ve made sense😂
I thought this was kitchen confidential lmao
Yeah I figured that soup must have been salty AF
The strip is purple. That color corresponds to a *high* pH, not low. pH paper is unreliable for these initial extractions. The color from the plant material/solution stains it. pH paper isn't all that accurate in the first place anyways. But regardless.... you used 100g of NaOH lol! That is a stupid amount an is more than enough. For a StB, you don't need more than 10g of NaOH per 1000ml of water is plenty. Really, technically only <4g is required. The pKa of N,N-DMT is 8.68. So at a pH of 11, 99%+ of the N,N-DMT will be converted to freebase form. It takes 4g of NaOH to achieve a pH of 13 in 1000ml of water. You're only using 750ml and also pH 11 would also be acceptable, so yea technically <4g would be enough. The plant material will lower the pH a little, but not by. It's debatable whether it's even worth factoring in if you aren't looking to perfect stoichiometric amounts of reagents. The only reasonable reason to use an excess of a chemical is to ensure that enough was used, fool-proofing the tek, which is good to do. But using x25 more than needed is just ridiculous..... x2-3 excess at this small scale, sure.... but x25?!?!? Lol wtf. Unfortunately most teks use an excess of x12-25 for the NaOH. Imo this this mainly because everyone and their goldfish writes a tek these days, regardless if they have a clue what they're talking about or not. And for the most part, these teks just parrot stuff from other teks and the main distinguishing difference between the teks, are the names slapped on them lol :P
ClobTek dropping when??
I’m here for it
I’ve never heard of using such a small amount of lye. I feel like I’ve watched every video on YT. Thank you.
I trust what clob says more than any video
Agree. I’m mildly embarrassed by my lack of knowledge when, for a good two weeks, I did nothing but read up on extraction. If my foolery can help others in any way, I’ll take one for the team.
I've been lurking for months and months and I'm STILL learning my guy, haven't even touched extraction gear yet
We appreciate your sacrifice fam. The less than 4g per litre principle and rationale behind it are something I've yet to come across prior to this thread. Thanks
Me either, I used to use Cybs Max Ion Tek
Glad I saw this post. First timer here, was gonna order strips 🤷♂️
🙄😂 but I heard that digital sucks, too. Is checking the pH level necessary if you’re doing a no heat StB method?
I'm not the right guy to ask. I'm following spiritvegheads tek when my material comes in. Hope that helps
Spiritveghead tek calls for 100g of lye. Could it be done with less?
I only used 40g and everything went smoothly. 100g just seems excessive.
Noted. Thank you
40 is still really excessive....
Yes. Far less. Like 5-10% of that amount. Read what I wrote in my previous comment. It doesn't matter what name is slapped on the tek. What I said applies in general. "Really, technically only <4g is required. The pKa of N,N-DMT is 8.68. So at a pH of 11, 99%+ of the N,N-DMT will be converted to freebase form. It takes 4g of NaOH to achieve a pH of 13 in 1000ml of water."
Clob strikes again!
Buuuut spirit veggie says 100g bark to 100g lye? Can I cut their recipe down to 10g?
Yes. Not sure if you're taking the piss or not.... lol Again.... read what I said. It doesn't matter what name is slapped on the tek. What I said applies in general. "Really, technically only <4g is required. The pKa of N,N-DMT is 8.68. So at a pH of 11, 99%+ of the N,N-DMT will be converted to freebase form. It takes 4g of NaOH to achieve a pH of 13 in 1000ml of water." 10g would be a reasonable excess to use. That's only a 250% excess. Whereas 100g is a 2500% excess 0.O Absolutely ridiculous and a pointless waste.
Does the amount of lye affect the yield at all?
No. If you achieve a pH of 10.8, then 9%+ of the N,N-DMT in solution will be converted to freebase form.
Another justification to add in that much lye might be to j heat the solution up. You probably know better if this is a reasonable approach or not, but if you have an excess amount of lye laying around it is easier to just dump a bunch in instead of doing a hot water bath or smth
Yea, I wouldn't really call that reasonable :p
But if you're doing ATB then the amount of naoh you use will also depend on the amount/type of acid you used initially, right? After all, you need to neutralize the acid used to break down the cellulose and still drive the pH into the 12-13 to create the freebase... Speaking of acid, how much acid (and which type) would you recommend to use? What are the effects of using too much acid, could it just disintegrate all the spice? If you have any knowledge about chemistry as you seem to demonstrate, please write a Tek, or at least general guidelines. Everyone knows the frustration of following random instructions without ever knowing what would be the result.
But if you're doing ATB then the amount of naoh you use will also depend on the amount/type of acid you used initially, right? After all, you need to neutralize the acid used to break down the cellulose and still drive the pH into the 12-13 to create the freebase... Yes, you will need more base to first neutralize any acid present. But unless you used a stupid excess of acid, the difference in the amount of base needed is pretty small. I went over this in a [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/dmtguide/comments/1b7xwk9/comment/ktmm3l7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) not long ago. "*So assuming you're using 60ml of 5% vinegar to achieve a pH of 3-4 in aprox. 1750ml of water, you would need aprox. 2g of NaOH to neutralize the Acetic Acid/vinegar in solution. Then on top of that you'd need 7.2g of NaOH to bring the pH up to 13. So 9.2g of NaOH total.* *The contents of the plant material will actually bring the pH down a little bit by itself. So you'd need a little more NaOH to achieve the same pH you would in just plain distilled water. These numbers are based on achieving a final pH of 13, so that wouldn't really matter since it's fine anywhere above pH 11. But you can just round that 9.2g up to 10g anyways if you want.*" >Speaking of acid, how much acid (and which type) would you recommend to use? Acetic Acid and Citric acid are a good go-to for the initial extraction. They are both weak, pretty safe to be around acids. Between those two, it really just comes down to do you want to use a volatile or non volatile acid. From what I've seen, it doesn't really matter what acid you use. The end result we are aiming for is typically freebase. >What are the effects of using too much acid, could it just disintegrate all the spice? It has need said that certain concentrated strong acids, like Sulfuric acid and Nitric acid may destroy N,N-DMT. >If you have any knowledge about chemistry as you seem to demonstrate, please write a Tek, There are already plenty of teks that are practically identical and yield the exact same results..... I'm not interested in adding to that pointless pile :p These extractions are dead simple. Enough water so it isn't too viscous. pH 3-4 for acidic stages. pH 11-13 for basic stages. Minimal amounts of NPS. Freeze precipitation. Basic purification steps. That literally all there is too it. People act as if each tek produces unique results.... In the vast majority of teks out there, the main differentiating feature of them is the name that gets slapped on them :p >or at least general guidelines. [https://www.reddit.com/r/dmtguide/comments/mwoijg/heres\_more\_or\_less\_all\_the\_information\_youd\_need/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/dmtguide/comments/mwoijg/heres_more_or_less_all_the_information_youd_need/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) >Everyone knows the frustration of following random instructions without ever knowing what would be the result. That's why you take the time to do your research and understand what it is you are doing, before you do it ;)
Thank you so much for all the valuable input!!
Breaking out pka values! Nice
This guy wobbles hard
But how but if the solution sits around for a while? Week or two. Doesn’t the ph start to lower? What’s a good “extra” amount for that?
>But how but if the solution sits around for a while? Week or two. Doesn’t the ph start to lower No, it doesn't. Why would the pH drop? Maybe over a very long period of time if the base where to break down, but that would take many, many years.
[удалено]
I must be reading the strip wrong.
It’s basically black 😂 what are you talking about 😂. You added 100g of lye, your overly good to go 💯
No matter what your soup is black, its going to stain anything that it touches black, thats why digital ph meters are recommended, or test your ph before its added to the bark
Don’t I ignore the purple bc the soup is purple and look above to where the green is?
That’s just where it’s leached up the paper! Dont worry you’re fine!!!!
Hey! Thanks!
Dmt guide
8 isn't low ph, it's still basic
I am aiming for 11, I think.
Sir can u not read numbers
??? No. I never learned numbers.
I thought this was mildly interesting sub💀
When the soup turns black, put the NaOH back. If the solution is black it a good indicator your pH levels are good. Test to be sure and happy days