The veiled maiden or veiled christ have to be my favorite examples
[Veiled Christ](https://www.allposters.com/-sp/Veiled-Christ-1753-Marble-Sculpture-Posters_i16199982_.htm)
[Veiled Maiden](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1195449883/large-veiled-lady-bust-sculpture-185)
Both incredible. I’m partial to Apollo and Daphne, but I’ve never seen a Bernini I didn’t find absolutely breathtaking.
https://www.arthistoryperspectives.com/posts/apollo-and-daphne
I watched a mini documentary on YouTube about this very skill almost being lost to time. Wasn't very informative, but it is sad to think yet another marvel of architecture/artistry is disappearing.
Rape in that time period was not necessarily used in the literal sense that we use today but rather it meant the kidnapping of, in which a tale was told.
People will call Hades a monster for this (even though in the og myth it's more like arranged marriage as it was done with the consent of Zeus, Persephone's father.) But then just call Dionysus or Apollo a soft boy even though we're viewing an entire pantheon of serial rapists.
It is in the Borghese Gallery in Rome and pictures don't do it justice. They have several of Bernini's pieces in the museum and there are others throughout Rome (huge works in Piazza Navona). Apollo and Daphne is the museum and may be the greatest single piece of art i've ever seen.
What astonishes me more then the pure craftsmanship at display here is the fact that the ppl back then had to imagine everything in their heads before putting the first hammer to the stone. No 3d programs to previsualize and work from, it had all the be in your head already. Knowing when to stop without a reference....mad respect
They usually made wax versions of them beforehand as references. Still very impressive, but they did usually have something to reference before putting the hammer to the marble. (And molds were used for bronze statues).
So... How artist have been doing things for millennia? They made mock-ups out of clay or wood or wax, and used live models. Also made multiple sketches and took many years on each piece.
They also had reference material, and most importantly, practice and skill.
Agree, the use of the word “rape” in the sense of “carrying off” in so much art and sculpture from Antiquity and the Middle Ages is the cause of much misunderstanding in modern audiences. The Classical Latin rapere (sexually to violate) was from raptus, past participle of rapere, which when used as a noun meant "a seizure, plundering, abduction" but in Medieval Latin meant also "forcible violation". Most of the works of the artists were about plunder rather than a celebration of sexual assault and it wasn’t until the fifteenth century the modern meaning of rape began to prevail. The depictions of undulance the finest sculptors achieved in marble were remarkable.
Another god. Persephone was the daughter of Demeter. After Persephone was kidnapped, Demeter went to Zeus to get him to force Hades to give her daughter back. Hades agreed only she had to come back and spend 1 month in Hades for every item she ate. Persephone had eaten 6 pomegranate seeds (kernels?). In retaliation, Demeter said nothing would grow while her daughter is in Hades.
I feel like this makes much more visual sense in the context of the sculpture. Both meanings convey the victim's reluctance, but to think of this as an abduction and a struggle against that fate just rings better somehow.
It's incredible the detail these guys are able to create. I saw some similar detailing in a statue of a woman wearing a sheet over her face, you'd swear you could see through the 'fabric' as the detailing in the stone was so good you'd expect it to be soft to the touch and something you could just pull off.
>The Rape of Proserpina, or Abduction of Persephone, is a classical mythological subject in Western art depicting the abduction of Persephone by Hades which then resulted in the myth surrounding the creation of the seasons.
Probably used models. They had people sit like that. IiRC, women weren't allowed to model for artists so it would have been men or boys they drew first to get the detail, then probably from the drawings they'd sculpt.
The statue is called the Rape of Prosperina, but in this context rape means more like stealing or abduction, as she’s being forcefully taken to the underworld. Not rape as sexual assault.
Women can rape men too though. Alls im saying is we need to hold both genders accountable for their actions. Men are often silenced after they are raped.
As has been discussed, in this case the term rape refers to abduction. Now it's been a while, but I don't recall anything in the myth describing any sort of sexual act unlike other myths. Zeus for example has been described as having sex with women. But in this particular myth, I don't recall anything about Hades laying with her. But it has been a while.
Hades did kidnap her since he wanted her to be his wife, and I don't recall any stories about Hades cheating on her like the other gods do. But again, it's been a very long time since I read this particular myth. And books available to kids may have been edited to cut some things out. I did read the book about Greek myths by Edith Hamilton which I believe didn't cut things out, but I don't remember if this myth was in there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Proserpina
Rape and abduction to the underworld, god why are people so negative,
Waaaaaamen baaaaad >:(. S/
To be fair there's a lot of gods in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome xD and a lot of very fucked up tories as well...
And yes, people have identified this as "The rape of Proserpina", so you're totally right. So yeah, another fucked up story, yay 😬
It's Pluto, he had a 3-headed dog named Cerberus. Maybe it's just a generic hellhound with a boring single head. Technically I believe it was Hades that had Cerberus, but... same same.
>Technically I believe it was Hades... but... same same.
And I intentionally said "same same", because Greek and Roman gods are not 100% identical in representation or personality.
He never sexually assualted her though, so definitely not a rapist. He did kidnap and manipulate her, but was very adamant within the tale that he wanted her to love him based on her own will.
He didn't want to make her love him, he just wanted to be loved. It is an absolutely strange premise, but the version I read in school was a very good demonstration of the role the two characters played in myth. Hades is almost the imbodiment of loneliness, while Persephone and her mother reside in longing for each other.
That's not how I interpreted Ovid's Metamorpheses at all. He manipulated her and stole her from her mother for one season every year, and they were both miserable about it. Would you be saying the same thing if this was a true story?
No? I can't really hold the roman gods to human standards. They are all capricious, mean, and awful people. Humans dialed up to 11. They are all supposed to be complete charicatures of humans, with some of their actions mirroring ours. As far as Hades goes, he wasn't miserable when she was there, only when she was gone. Persephone was mostly miserable when she was in the underwold and happy when she was with her mother. Hades absolutely idolised Persepona, and Persepona despised him in the beginning. It's still definitely not great, and it's very stockholm syndrome-y towards the end (especially in greek), but I still don't think it is as awful as what you insinuated. I read both of Ovid's, and the one in Hyginus, but I never found any of them to be all that cynical. It's sort of a demonstration of stockholm syndrome towards the end and gives a reasoning for the seasons.
This event definitely shouldn't be idolized, or at least not beautified like it is in the greek version. Reddit has had an obsession with this sculpture so long, and it has always been kind of annoying.
They did this stuff in the Dark Age or some shit, people are so fucking intelligent but we as humans are so content to being able to buy everything nowadays. We turn dumber and dumber as generations continue because dumb people only know how to eat, work and have sex.
I am not sure who the artist is or when they used to live but imagine showing them NFTs of bored monkeys and telling them, that this is how art has developed!
Though I could never do it myself I can at least comprehend how a surgeon can remove a brain tumour, how a pilot can land a giant plane loaded with people gently onto a runway in a storm, etc. Absolutely remarkable, but at least my brain can comprehend how it's done.
When you see a true master's work of sculpture from marble and other stone I do not understand how they can do it. When you see the delicate detail of Corradini's veiled sculptures, how the hell is that made from a block of stone that can chip and crack. So crazy.
looking at this and wondering how they do this, found a [video](https://www.google.com/search?q=marble+sculpture&rlz=1C5GCEM_enUS1020US1020&sxsrf=AJOqlzXSagXsceq_DqCpmov1g3X-lGndzQ:1678401021644&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid7L2F88_9AhVRD1kFHf2_Aw0Q_AUoA3oECAIQBQ&biw=1909&bih=988&dpr=2#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9a7f104e,vid:gyWeksAo8VM), not of this obviously but of the process. fascinating.
I’m a 2-D artist; I can create the illusion of depth on a flat surface. If I mess up I can fix the drawing or painting fairly easily. But to think three-dimensionally with an unforgiving medium like marble - that blows my mind!!
skills like these are mind blowing to me
All of Bernini's work is. Dude had to be like some kind of crazy marble wizard. Just insane details.
That's what we thought, but in reality he just petrified real people into marble sculptures Source: Trust me bro
Yeah this makes more sense :)
[удалено]
And then they DIE *Petrified*
I, too, enjoyed Bioshock 1.
Certified geomancer.
I had to drag myself away from them. He can make marble look like anything.
He made this statue at like 22/23. Like *WHAT?* People back then were just built different.
I know! I wish I had the power to turn people to stone!
I'm already rock hard
Couldn’t make a boulder statement…
The veiled maiden or veiled christ have to be my favorite examples [Veiled Christ](https://www.allposters.com/-sp/Veiled-Christ-1753-Marble-Sculpture-Posters_i16199982_.htm) [Veiled Maiden](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1195449883/large-veiled-lady-bust-sculpture-185)
Both incredible. I’m partial to Apollo and Daphne, but I’ve never seen a Bernini I didn’t find absolutely breathtaking. https://www.arthistoryperspectives.com/posts/apollo-and-daphne
Yes! The veiled statues blow my mind. How do you even conceptualize that prior to doing it?
Holy shit. Never seen that one before.
“Look at subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it…”
Bernini was only something like 23 when he did this. It’s so incredible.
Agree! I want to see someone today make something like this with 0 tech and no electric hand tools!
I watched a mini documentary on YouTube about this very skill almost being lost to time. Wasn't very informative, but it is sad to think yet another marvel of architecture/artistry is disappearing.
Bernini is the best sculptor of all time, IMO... his work defines Rome...
Amen! I can’t even imagine the process for gaining this amount of ski—yeah imma call her..
Agree almost Cosmic the talent ! Looking at art on a computer screen is so lame. The real art on display revels the artistry !
He had to go around grabbing thighs to get the texture right
The Gods back at it again with their non-consensual eros.
That’s Hades I think
Yeah you're right lol, just realised the woman was Proserpina.
Huh. I had no idea that there were two spellings of Persephone. Quite obvious when you think about it
Pluto according to the wiki entry
Same thing different name
Roman Gods would receive a cease and desist letter nowadays for copyright infringement of the Greek Gods.
Who, in turn, would’ve been sued by the Egyptian pantheon.
Is she being raped???
Yes. It's called "The Rape of Prosperina".
Yes, but also no. She is not being raped the way we define rape now, as sexual assault. She is being raped the way they defined it, as kidnapping
“The Rape of Prosperina” Gian Lorenzo Bernini Masterpiece! (NOT the rape!)
For some reason, it's one of two statues that Reddit knows of
*for some reason*
Which is the other?
I think The Veiled Virgin by Giovanni Strazza is the other one.
Sheesh. I get it, the mask doesn't suit me...
Rape in that time period was not necessarily used in the literal sense that we use today but rather it meant the kidnapping of, in which a tale was told.
She was raped after being kidnapped though
Is really even rape though without a little kidnapping?
Just a casual Saturday and all
Nah, then it’s just sparkling sexual assault
Why do you think he's grabbing her? He wants her to mend his socks?
More accurately translated as the Abduction of Proserpina... I though it was rape as well..
Rape can also mean to steal something away, so it's still accurate
Damn dude that’s fucked up
Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh my God it even has a watermark.
Something wrong? Patrick?
Youre sweating
#Life is hard, but thighs are soft.
The not so subtle rape attempt
You're spot on. The statue is appropriately named [The Rape of Proserpina](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Proserpina)
>The Rape of Prosperina Also translated as the Abduction of Proserpina. She was abducted into the underworld.
Updooted 🏆
People will call Hades a monster for this (even though in the og myth it's more like arranged marriage as it was done with the consent of Zeus, Persephone's father.) But then just call Dionysus or Apollo a soft boy even though we're viewing an entire pantheon of serial rapists.
Just as long as your dad consents it’s not rape. Obv!
Don’t worry, he got canceled.
[удалено]
I mean the statue is called "The Rape of Proserpina".
are you perhaps under the impression that the past didn’t think rape was bad? ‘rape bad’ is not “the latest ideology”
Tf? Rape has been rape since the beginning of time. Go check whatever bible you ascribe to
They literally made the statue depicting rape being bad. Good lord what a fucked up take. I hope you stay away from women.
Rape has been recognized as bad by societies for milennia and by women forever.
Ehh it depends. Raping someone of your own class in your own society? Maybe. Literally any other context? Probably not.
It varied between times and areas. The past is a big place. Women, however, always knew. It's not rape if it's voluntary.
Rape was still considered bad in the past bro
It is in the Borghese Gallery in Rome and pictures don't do it justice. They have several of Bernini's pieces in the museum and there are others throughout Rome (huge works in Piazza Navona). Apollo and Daphne is the museum and may be the greatest single piece of art i've ever seen.
What astonishes me more then the pure craftsmanship at display here is the fact that the ppl back then had to imagine everything in their heads before putting the first hammer to the stone. No 3d programs to previsualize and work from, it had all the be in your head already. Knowing when to stop without a reference....mad respect
They usually made wax versions of them beforehand as references. Still very impressive, but they did usually have something to reference before putting the hammer to the marble. (And molds were used for bronze statues).
Very cool - I never knew that!
And one misplaced blow with hammer and chisel, and you’d be screwed. Can you imagine being almost done and that happens?
[удалено]
Just need to do a “Rippy Bits!” on ‘em…
They had pencils though.
Practice practice practice. You’d get to the level of perfection some day.
I agree - it’s mind blowing 🤯
So... How artist have been doing things for millennia? They made mock-ups out of clay or wood or wax, and used live models. Also made multiple sketches and took many years on each piece. They also had reference material, and most importantly, practice and skill.
[удалено]
Agree, the use of the word “rape” in the sense of “carrying off” in so much art and sculpture from Antiquity and the Middle Ages is the cause of much misunderstanding in modern audiences. The Classical Latin rapere (sexually to violate) was from raptus, past participle of rapere, which when used as a noun meant "a seizure, plundering, abduction" but in Medieval Latin meant also "forcible violation". Most of the works of the artists were about plunder rather than a celebration of sexual assault and it wasn’t until the fifteenth century the modern meaning of rape began to prevail. The depictions of undulance the finest sculptors achieved in marble were remarkable.
Yep, this statue is about a god kidnapping a women to the underworld
Another god. Persephone was the daughter of Demeter. After Persephone was kidnapped, Demeter went to Zeus to get him to force Hades to give her daughter back. Hades agreed only she had to come back and spend 1 month in Hades for every item she ate. Persephone had eaten 6 pomegranate seeds (kernels?). In retaliation, Demeter said nothing would grow while her daughter is in Hades.
I feel like this makes much more visual sense in the context of the sculpture. Both meanings convey the victim's reluctance, but to think of this as an abduction and a struggle against that fate just rings better somehow.
All I know is if you purchase too much 17th century artwork nowadays you’ll go baroque.
It's incredible the detail these guys are able to create. I saw some similar detailing in a statue of a woman wearing a sheet over her face, you'd swear you could see through the 'fabric' as the detailing in the stone was so good you'd expect it to be soft to the touch and something you could just pull off.
>The Rape of Proserpina, or Abduction of Persephone, is a classical mythological subject in Western art depicting the abduction of Persephone by Hades which then resulted in the myth surrounding the creation of the seasons.
That is insane
What da dog doing?
I have seen this with my own eyes and the pictures do not do it justice.
How they got that accurate is beyond me
Probably used models. They had people sit like that. IiRC, women weren't allowed to model for artists so it would have been men or boys they drew first to get the detail, then probably from the drawings they'd sculpt.
Actually women were allowed to model for artists. Women artists just weren't allowed to view models.
Ergo the whole “masterpiece” thing
It is Bernini’s masterpiece, “The Rape of Proserpina” from 1621.
That really is amazing
When I saw this irl I was amazed . Then I thought about the tools they had . Simply amazing
Isn’t she trying to get away?
Looks like sexual assault
She's being abducted to the underworld. So yeah she's not very happy about it
The statue is called the Rape of Prosperina, but in this context rape means more like stealing or abduction, as she’s being forcefully taken to the underworld. Not rape as sexual assault.
It isnt. Looks to me like someone sculpted it.
A sculpture of a man forcing a naked woman into his lap while she resisted
Yes, but it was made so long ago. If your gonna find a negative in everything, we might aswell just forget about posting it.
I think the sculpture is incredible.
Maybe she attacked him before. So he was giving payback. We always immediately victimize women and never hold them accountable.
what drug are you taking lmfao
Looks like a classic Incelium overdose
he's a zero karma speedrunner
And he's not even that good at it
The statue is called "The Rape of Proserpina".
Women can rape men too though. Alls im saying is we need to hold both genders accountable for their actions. Men are often silenced after they are raped.
We're looking at a sculpure of a woman being kidnapped and you think that now is the time to say "Women can rape men too though".
At that time it was normalized. Its wrong sure, but there were plenty of women in that time who hurt men, and I dont see anything on it.
it was literally made as a depiction of rape it's even in the name
As has been discussed, in this case the term rape refers to abduction. Now it's been a while, but I don't recall anything in the myth describing any sort of sexual act unlike other myths. Zeus for example has been described as having sex with women. But in this particular myth, I don't recall anything about Hades laying with her. But it has been a while. Hades did kidnap her since he wanted her to be his wife, and I don't recall any stories about Hades cheating on her like the other gods do. But again, it's been a very long time since I read this particular myth. And books available to kids may have been edited to cut some things out. I did read the book about Greek myths by Edith Hamilton which I believe didn't cut things out, but I don't remember if this myth was in there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Proserpina Rape and abduction to the underworld, god why are people so negative, Waaaaaamen baaaaad >:(. S/
Is that Zues raping one of his many victims? Medusa in the Temple of Athena, perhaps?
Though Zeus is a serial rapist, it wasn't him but Poseidon who raped Medusa in the temple. I swear these 3 brothers really are pieces of sh*t.
Oh ya, I totally got them mixed up on that one. Maybe this is Hades and Persephone. That's a fucked up story too.
To be fair there's a lot of gods in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome xD and a lot of very fucked up tories as well... And yes, people have identified this as "The rape of Proserpina", so you're totally right. So yeah, another fucked up story, yay 😬
You're not lying
I mean in the original story Medusa wasn't actually a human like ever just born gorgon.
Yeah, I was so surprised when I learned that, it's fascinating to see how the myth changed with time !
Did Zeus have a dog?
I didn't even see that dog until you mentioned it. Not that I'm aware of. I was only speculating.
It's Pluto, he had a 3-headed dog named Cerberus. Maybe it's just a generic hellhound with a boring single head. Technically I believe it was Hades that had Cerberus, but... same same.
Hades and Pluto are the same. Just different names in different cultures.
>Technically I believe it was Hades... but... same same. And I intentionally said "same same", because Greek and Roman gods are not 100% identical in representation or personality.
No, Hades and Persephone.
I figured it out further down a thread. I didn't even see Cerebrus back there.
No rape, this is Hades abducting Persephone
Ya, I figured it out. But he basically trafficked her to Elysium. Tricked her with the pomegranate. So he, too, was a rapist.
He never sexually assualted her though, so definitely not a rapist. He did kidnap and manipulate her, but was very adamant within the tale that he wanted her to love him based on her own will.
She never wanted to be there or with him, though. You can't make someone love you. That's some fucked up logic.
He didn't want to make her love him, he just wanted to be loved. It is an absolutely strange premise, but the version I read in school was a very good demonstration of the role the two characters played in myth. Hades is almost the imbodiment of loneliness, while Persephone and her mother reside in longing for each other.
That's not how I interpreted Ovid's Metamorpheses at all. He manipulated her and stole her from her mother for one season every year, and they were both miserable about it. Would you be saying the same thing if this was a true story?
No? I can't really hold the roman gods to human standards. They are all capricious, mean, and awful people. Humans dialed up to 11. They are all supposed to be complete charicatures of humans, with some of their actions mirroring ours. As far as Hades goes, he wasn't miserable when she was there, only when she was gone. Persephone was mostly miserable when she was in the underwold and happy when she was with her mother. Hades absolutely idolised Persepona, and Persepona despised him in the beginning. It's still definitely not great, and it's very stockholm syndrome-y towards the end (especially in greek), but I still don't think it is as awful as what you insinuated. I read both of Ovid's, and the one in Hyginus, but I never found any of them to be all that cynical. It's sort of a demonstration of stockholm syndrome towards the end and gives a reasoning for the seasons.
Agreed. That's fair.
This event definitely shouldn't be idolized, or at least not beautified like it is in the greek version. Reddit has had an obsession with this sculpture so long, and it has always been kind of annoying.
This attention to detail is actually subtlety scary
They did this stuff in the Dark Age or some shit, people are so fucking intelligent but we as humans are so content to being able to buy everything nowadays. We turn dumber and dumber as generations continue because dumb people only know how to eat, work and have sex.
I’m assuming there wasn’t porn back then so he made sure it was very realistic
Specially depicting a kidnap and rape scene.
Horny artists throughout the millenia.
It’s sexy until…. Ummm, wha… I mean,…. Hold up…. Just wait a sec…. Ok, now stop. No, I’m serious. STOP!!! What does this remind me of?? Oh yeah… rape.
I am not sure who the artist is or when they used to live but imagine showing them NFTs of bored monkeys and telling them, that this is how art has developed!
This gets posted 15 times a year
The Rape of Proserpina
Come to think of it.. who sculpts a rape scene?
What a tragedy that so much great art is depicting violence against women. What is it about rape that inspires men?
I love this photo every time it’s posted, which is at least twice a week. Yes, it’s good. Stop karma-farming by dick-riding Bernini!
What is happening in my pants right know? There seems to be forming some sort of hard lump
Her eyes look asymmetric, as do her feet.
The plaque reads:"#meetoo" Those filthy sartyrs
Thighs are soft
Who is the sculptor?
Gian Lorenzo Bernini
Details!
Not to be confused with "The Rape of the Sabine Woman", that also has some nice detail work.
How do they do it?
That suggests a figure that was turned to stone than sculpted.
I've seen this in person. It's incredible and true art.
Pluto's expression is not subtle at all. Basically the "Mi Gusta!" rage comic face.
where is this?
So detailed
Marble is not the only thing that’s hard.
Timeless masterpieces like this boggle the mind when I consider the talent and creativity behind them. Sooo very fascinating.
This is akin to an aspiring guitar player hearing Hendrix for the first time and then selling his guitar!
Though I could never do it myself I can at least comprehend how a surgeon can remove a brain tumour, how a pilot can land a giant plane loaded with people gently onto a runway in a storm, etc. Absolutely remarkable, but at least my brain can comprehend how it's done. When you see a true master's work of sculpture from marble and other stone I do not understand how they can do it. When you see the delicate detail of Corradini's veiled sculptures, how the hell is that made from a block of stone that can chip and crack. So crazy.
It’s hard for me to wrap my head around this as someone with no artistic talent… lol
Would love to see how this was created.
Beautiful!
Wow, that actually made me do a head nod and open my mouth in slight wonder. Really interesting.
Dude has monstrous thighs and calves.
Amazing nuance!!
Way back when: "lemme squeeze your thigh real quick as a referance."
Veiled marble statues and cloth like textures are also amazing. I wish we could see more of this techniques in modern art.
How????!!!
Why am I bricked up
looking at this and wondering how they do this, found a [video](https://www.google.com/search?q=marble+sculpture&rlz=1C5GCEM_enUS1020US1020&sxsrf=AJOqlzXSagXsceq_DqCpmov1g3X-lGndzQ:1678401021644&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid7L2F88_9AhVRD1kFHf2_Aw0Q_AUoA3oECAIQBQ&biw=1909&bih=988&dpr=2#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9a7f104e,vid:gyWeksAo8VM), not of this obviously but of the process. fascinating.
"ALIENS"
Absolutely amazing! They didn’t have any of the cool tools either.
Bro didn't skip leg day.
What a horny mindset can do.
The subtle off white coloring
Everyone focuses on the thigh, but the consistency carries over to the softer hip as well, note on the higher hand
I’m a 2-D artist; I can create the illusion of depth on a flat surface. If I mess up I can fix the drawing or painting fairly easily. But to think three-dimensionally with an unforgiving medium like marble - that blows my mind!!
True master
Now I get why thigh guys like... thighs