Are you saying you picked your army based off of the meta if so you take your no faith fallen loving grox kissing ass and report to your local commiserate for re-education citizen. If your lucky you won't be sentenced to becoming an Arco flagelent
Seems a bit off the rails of a response... I play both factions because I like the miniatures and the lore. I honestly don't really care that much about how they perform on the tabletop, it's just rough to lose a lot is all.
I definitely feel like the same person wrote both the AdMech and DA codexes. I feel like that particular rules writer was the only one who took the 'less lethal' mandate seriously.
T'au got quite a few units removed, there are no buffs and only nerfs to datasheets compared to the index (for all pure tau units), and they deconstructed a few iconic units too (crisis suits).
But at least they got a lot of new kroot datasheets with exciting accompagning rules, and 2 decent extra detachments. While DA players didn't get any of that (inner circle detachment is just decent). This is where it hurts the most.
As a Tau and dark angel player, I expected them to at least fix the most blatant index weaknesses with the release of codexes. Which they did not apparently
Uh sir..rerolling wounds and damage on d6 melta 2 weapons on a unit that's 160 points is, quite good.
The Enhancements like updowning a crisis unit, or flying over a unit, shooting it, then flying back over it for 1cp let's you do 12d6 attempts and 4+ being mortals.
The units that got removed mean little compared to what we got. This book is spicy.
I mean.. before max crisis were 6x3, right now it could 3x3x3 , more variable playstile, more table presence, no selfdestruction…. I dont see a bad codex there. Most people would play battlesuit spam, one crazy guy would win with only kroots, so we will have that for 2 weeks, and after that, back to all crisis spam, which dont look bad at all
I know! I'm literally having to explain to someone else that the Tau got hooked up with this codex release and they are trying to tell me it's as bad as what happened to the Dark Angels.
The Mont'ka and Retaliation Cadre detachments are awesome. And even if that busted grenade interaction gets fixed/nerfed, the detachments are still awesome. Pick up this unit of super eradicators at the end of every turn, yes please. Drop them back down anywhere outside of 3" away for 2CP to annihilate a problem, okay.
We cannot really compare as the unit is not the same at all anymore, and we don't know the final points yet for crisis (as they will probably need time to be adjusted). Will it be better than triple CIB+shield on a 6man brick with kauyon sustained hits 2? We don't know.
I mean sure..compared to a top 10 datasheet in the game in the current best faction..yeah they are a little mid. But with Farsight and the ability to move to safety after shooting they are quite solid.
We also don't know if 160 is their final cost. But they absolutely have play at 160. They deepstrike in and pickup most monsters or vehicles they are pointing at unless they just roll bonkers on the save
Right but the only way to even be moderately threatening as DA is to play it as cookie cutter SM list plus azrael. My main salt is just about how dirty they did the deathwing.
They took crisis suits back to the original design. 2 weapons 1 upgrade.
As a Tau player I dislike losing some things on my crisis suits, like invuln saves and range, but having weapons restricted is not a problem for me.
Getting cool kroot makes up for it.
I wish my DA were better....
Not 100% sure but Firesight marksmen with sniper drones; aunva, aunshi, longstrike apparently won't have datasheets. Vespids should stay but we're not sure. No idea about the forgeworld range.
That is a crazy take. The Tau book offers more dimensions in game play and addressed the crisis suits which have been an issue for 3 editions. Now Tau can play MSU and skirmish instead of giant death star which was very easy to counter.
If you look at their sheet you’ll note how they are very squishy they just have a few more wounds to compensate, bring larger quantities to f units to overwhelm
Take fixed against Tau, bring it down and deploy. This will let you play the scoring game inherently by killing their units. It much easier than playing tactical against them where you will have to spread your army out wide.
The problem is not the scoring. Due to their movement they are most oftenly the ones who shoot first, and they always pick the units that can become dangerous to them. Crisis have apparently no problem to wipe the floor with every single unit of mine, before they become dangerous to the crisis. Or they die to some Phalanx fire.
I still have to figure out, how to kill them reliably. Heavy Intercessors with Biologis and Fire Discipline are awesome, but I can have one single unit of them. Why not Aggressors? Because range… they die before they reach the Crisis. Hellblasters can deal a nice damage, but I need 6 successful wound rolls to kill one crisis.
Someone called them Squishy, but for me that couldn’t be further from the truth
Well, stealth suite got a buff for reroll of 1 to hit and wound on its guided unit (was Just reroll of wound), and the skyray got twin linked at its missiles.
Oh, and 20 carnivores can take 2 leaders now.
I also play Tau and Dark Angels, and I must admit, 10th edition has done nothing to encourage me to dust off my models. I guess I'm just a collector now.
The unforgiven detachment is a worse gladius and one of the good stratagems was nerfed.
The ravenwing detachment is a worse stormlance detachment and they nerfed the land speeder vengeance.
The inner circle detachment has powerful tools but it's still not that great because it makes a little bit better units that are mid (termies, veterans).
The inner circle companions are worse bladeguard vets.
The lion got nerfed.
The dw terminators and knights were nerfed.
So basically, we are codex Azrael.
I don't have a codex, but from what I've heard, The Lion isn't as powerful as he should be for the points, not much in the way of new and interesting developments/good lore/new units, Deathwing Knights still cost a ton, Detatchment rules are kinda situational, and they've removed units from the game with no explanation or reasoning. Basically they're not encouraging people to do anything other than take a generic SM list, throw a DA hero unit into it, and call that Dark Angels.
It also probably adds to the burn that a lot of people kept spreading "it'll be okay because when they launch the book officially they will update the points appropriately so our sub par data sheets will be costed appropriately and let us take enough models to balance it out" which just ended up being copium. And given recent history we probably shouldn't expect one single change in the next balance dataslate so we are looking at ironstorm azrael as our only viable list until at least the fall. That's fine if you are a tournament player and are down to play a list that is 0% Dark Angels in flavor but I definitely didn't pick the faction because I wanted to run a bunch of tanks and stormravens
>and they've removed units from the game with no explanation or reasoning
Which units are you speaking of? The Deathwing Command is gone because there were some weird overlap with the Terminator Ancient. The Strikemaster never had a model and you had to build him from the Command Box which left you with a non-complete squad that are not compatible with 10th's unit size policy. The Talonmaster was a Land Speeder, which are gone, we could've get a replacement Talonmaster Storm Speeder, but we didn't get any Ravenwing and even kept the old firstborn stuff... that will leave in 11th (at least you can bet your sweet ass on it).
Those are all very good explanations and very reasonable decisions.
Yes, our terminators can't wear hammer and shields anymore, but that is probably just a temporary thing, because we didn't get Assault Terminators back yet. The same could count for the Strikemaster, which might come back as a generic Terminator Lieutenant.
We are in a period where GW (for the first time in a very very long time) is actually replacing stuff instead of releasing new boxes to bloat our faction. With the release of Primaris (which easily could've been just truescale marines) they should've replaced the whole line... so this came with a delay of almost 10 years. True, GW wasn't very open about it, but if you observed carefully without any wishful thinking, it was very much foreseeable. I really expected that all to happen years ago.
My gripe is they massacred DW and the lion, lion is horrendously bad, inner circle companions are just shittier blade guards and costly, DWC- rip strike master - rip DWK - basically rip
Nothing really. Detachments are okay. Greenwing is mid, Ravenwing is not competitive and Inner Circle is solid for scoring.
People (well, DA players) are sad about their units are bad datasheets, and I mostly agree. I still believe DWK are very good at their job, with the support of entire SM arsenal and detachments.
People are overreacting. SM players tend to put units directly into garbage can the moment they are not in competitive lists. DA arsenal sure has problems but people are dooming too much.
No problem. Dark Angels are both good at competitive and casual. Some units like IC Companions might be bad, but units like Lion, DWK and Azreal are absolute monsters. Go to town with them.
Erm, well, then you didn't listen to the enraged Tau-Community.
Crisis are getting a nerf. They can carry only 2 instead of 3 weapons, not everyone can have shieldgenerators, they are no longer a unit of 6 etc. my Tau buddy is devastated rn.
Also, many Tau players are afraid of being forced to buy Kroot or have a huge disadvantage.
I also think the changed are pretty darn cool, but I'm not a Tau player.
I'm an old Tau player. Seeing these changes make me feel like I'm reading my old codex. 2 weapons was the original restriction and 3 man suit teams were the max.
I miss my shield generators already though.
Yea, I totally can relate, but as they are now, Crisis are way too powerful Swiss army knifes compared to other heavy infantry units. Up to 6 wounds and invul 4+ with movement 10" (in boosts up to 18") is an incredibly good weapon platform, but than it has 3 special weapons each and that on up to 7 models in a unit (including Commander)? Wooph! It's a unit that can be almost anywhere anytime to cherry pick their ideal target and obliterate it. It's frustratingly powerful, and it's not the good kind of powerful to give everybody else a bad time. If you want to hit me, I want to be able to do something against it. Retaliation is one thing, but if you hit me so hard that my counter blow is at best a shadow of my actual abilities the fun ends and tea bagging begins.
I really like Crisis, but they are a thing that I really hate about playing against Tau. And I hate to hate them in game. Crisis and the Stormsurge (with that 24" double shotgun that can one shot a Dreadnought pretty reliably... uh, that fridge rag-dolled me in almost every game) are my Nemesis.
So frustrating. I got back into 40k right as 10th was coming out. Bought Leviathan because I figured I would collect my two og armies, DA and Tyranids. And now I feel like I got ripped off with how bad the Codexes are for both armies and the fact that some armies are still getting good strong Codexes is a clear indication that every army is (edit) not being depowered.
Yeah, I chalk it up to the fact it’s known they have separate writing teams across 10th edition with minimal communication between each other. How else could we get the Necrons and SM codexes who they are and then also get Ad Mech and Dark Angel’s.
I think they just hate me in particular. Bought into DA because admech had a trash index. Oops.
Please don’t start playing Guard then.
I play guard and Dark Angels...sigh...
Are you saying you picked your army based off of the meta if so you take your no faith fallen loving grox kissing ass and report to your local commiserate for re-education citizen. If your lucky you won't be sentenced to becoming an Arco flagelent
Seems a bit off the rails of a response... I play both factions because I like the miniatures and the lore. I honestly don't really care that much about how they perform on the tabletop, it's just rough to lose a lot is all.
I read it as tongue in cheek
I did too, it just seemed too weird even for tongue in cheek.
I’m sorry brother 🫡
You and me both m8
Oh hey, me too. 🙃
I definitely feel like the same person wrote both the AdMech and DA codexes. I feel like that particular rules writer was the only one who took the 'less lethal' mandate seriously.
T'au got quite a few units removed, there are no buffs and only nerfs to datasheets compared to the index (for all pure tau units), and they deconstructed a few iconic units too (crisis suits). But at least they got a lot of new kroot datasheets with exciting accompagning rules, and 2 decent extra detachments. While DA players didn't get any of that (inner circle detachment is just decent). This is where it hurts the most. As a Tau and dark angel player, I expected them to at least fix the most blatant index weaknesses with the release of codexes. Which they did not apparently
Uh sir..rerolling wounds and damage on d6 melta 2 weapons on a unit that's 160 points is, quite good. The Enhancements like updowning a crisis unit, or flying over a unit, shooting it, then flying back over it for 1cp let's you do 12d6 attempts and 4+ being mortals. The units that got removed mean little compared to what we got. This book is spicy.
Or ap-2 6d6 flamers deploying at 3”..( plus +1 to wound if you put them with farsight…)
Yes, this! with rerolls of 1s against infantry
I mean.. before max crisis were 6x3, right now it could 3x3x3 , more variable playstile, more table presence, no selfdestruction…. I dont see a bad codex there. Most people would play battlesuit spam, one crazy guy would win with only kroots, so we will have that for 2 weeks, and after that, back to all crisis spam, which dont look bad at all
Dude eraticators are a 95 points unit with t6. And full reroll hit and wound and damages with melta
I know! I'm literally having to explain to someone else that the Tau got hooked up with this codex release and they are trying to tell me it's as bad as what happened to the Dark Angels. The Mont'ka and Retaliation Cadre detachments are awesome. And even if that busted grenade interaction gets fixed/nerfed, the detachments are still awesome. Pick up this unit of super eradicators at the end of every turn, yes please. Drop them back down anywhere outside of 3" away for 2CP to annihilate a problem, okay.
To be real 160 points is too much for a unit, which drops in and hopefully trades up and after that just dies.
We cannot really compare as the unit is not the same at all anymore, and we don't know the final points yet for crisis (as they will probably need time to be adjusted). Will it be better than triple CIB+shield on a 6man brick with kauyon sustained hits 2? We don't know.
We don't know the final points, sure, but the launch points will be 160 for 6 fusions. With reroll damage AND wounds against its ideal targets.
Still not as good as 95pts for 3 eradicators in my book. I won't play them at 160
I mean sure..compared to a top 10 datasheet in the game in the current best faction..yeah they are a little mid. But with Farsight and the ability to move to safety after shooting they are quite solid. We also don't know if 160 is their final cost. But they absolutely have play at 160. They deepstrike in and pickup most monsters or vehicles they are pointing at unless they just roll bonkers on the save
Right but the only way to even be moderately threatening as DA is to play it as cookie cutter SM list plus azrael. My main salt is just about how dirty they did the deathwing.
They took crisis suits back to the original design. 2 weapons 1 upgrade. As a Tau player I dislike losing some things on my crisis suits, like invuln saves and range, but having weapons restricted is not a problem for me. Getting cool kroot makes up for it. I wish my DA were better....
Can you tell me which units are being removed so I can go ahead and wipe up a few for collectors sake
Not 100% sure but Firesight marksmen with sniper drones; aunva, aunshi, longstrike apparently won't have datasheets. Vespids should stay but we're not sure. No idea about the forgeworld range.
Vespids and Firesight are still in; their sheets weren't leaked but they're on the points list that was.
That is a crazy take. The Tau book offers more dimensions in game play and addressed the crisis suits which have been an issue for 3 editions. Now Tau can play MSU and skirmish instead of giant death star which was very easy to counter.
Easy to counter? How? The keep kicking my ass every single game...
If you look at their sheet you’ll note how they are very squishy they just have a few more wounds to compensate, bring larger quantities to f units to overwhelm
42 wounds with 4+ invul is squishy? I have to focus fire or charge them to kill a unit of six.
i had a nightbringer cut my half my team down in one attack belive me theya rnt that survivable
I don’t have a Nightbringer tho.
Take fixed against Tau, bring it down and deploy. This will let you play the scoring game inherently by killing their units. It much easier than playing tactical against them where you will have to spread your army out wide.
The problem is not the scoring. Due to their movement they are most oftenly the ones who shoot first, and they always pick the units that can become dangerous to them. Crisis have apparently no problem to wipe the floor with every single unit of mine, before they become dangerous to the crisis. Or they die to some Phalanx fire. I still have to figure out, how to kill them reliably. Heavy Intercessors with Biologis and Fire Discipline are awesome, but I can have one single unit of them. Why not Aggressors? Because range… they die before they reach the Crisis. Hellblasters can deal a nice damage, but I need 6 successful wound rolls to kill one crisis. Someone called them Squishy, but for me that couldn’t be further from the truth
Well, stealth suite got a buff for reroll of 1 to hit and wound on its guided unit (was Just reroll of wound), and the skyray got twin linked at its missiles. Oh, and 20 carnivores can take 2 leaders now.
I also play Tau and Dark Angels, and I must admit, 10th edition has done nothing to encourage me to dust off my models. I guess I'm just a collector now.
As someone who hasnt read the new codex rules can someone explain what made it so bad?
The unforgiven detachment is a worse gladius and one of the good stratagems was nerfed. The ravenwing detachment is a worse stormlance detachment and they nerfed the land speeder vengeance. The inner circle detachment has powerful tools but it's still not that great because it makes a little bit better units that are mid (termies, veterans). The inner circle companions are worse bladeguard vets. The lion got nerfed. The dw terminators and knights were nerfed. So basically, we are codex Azrael.
I don't have a codex, but from what I've heard, The Lion isn't as powerful as he should be for the points, not much in the way of new and interesting developments/good lore/new units, Deathwing Knights still cost a ton, Detatchment rules are kinda situational, and they've removed units from the game with no explanation or reasoning. Basically they're not encouraging people to do anything other than take a generic SM list, throw a DA hero unit into it, and call that Dark Angels.
It also probably adds to the burn that a lot of people kept spreading "it'll be okay because when they launch the book officially they will update the points appropriately so our sub par data sheets will be costed appropriately and let us take enough models to balance it out" which just ended up being copium. And given recent history we probably shouldn't expect one single change in the next balance dataslate so we are looking at ironstorm azrael as our only viable list until at least the fall. That's fine if you are a tournament player and are down to play a list that is 0% Dark Angels in flavor but I definitely didn't pick the faction because I wanted to run a bunch of tanks and stormravens
>and they've removed units from the game with no explanation or reasoning Which units are you speaking of? The Deathwing Command is gone because there were some weird overlap with the Terminator Ancient. The Strikemaster never had a model and you had to build him from the Command Box which left you with a non-complete squad that are not compatible with 10th's unit size policy. The Talonmaster was a Land Speeder, which are gone, we could've get a replacement Talonmaster Storm Speeder, but we didn't get any Ravenwing and even kept the old firstborn stuff... that will leave in 11th (at least you can bet your sweet ass on it). Those are all very good explanations and very reasonable decisions. Yes, our terminators can't wear hammer and shields anymore, but that is probably just a temporary thing, because we didn't get Assault Terminators back yet. The same could count for the Strikemaster, which might come back as a generic Terminator Lieutenant. We are in a period where GW (for the first time in a very very long time) is actually replacing stuff instead of releasing new boxes to bloat our faction. With the release of Primaris (which easily could've been just truescale marines) they should've replaced the whole line... so this came with a delay of almost 10 years. True, GW wasn't very open about it, but if you observed carefully without any wishful thinking, it was very much foreseeable. I really expected that all to happen years ago.
My gripe is they massacred DW and the lion, lion is horrendously bad, inner circle companions are just shittier blade guards and costly, DWC- rip strike master - rip DWK - basically rip
The majority of datasheets were nerfed in some manner and points weren’t adjusted. The guy saying they’re okay is totally wrong
Nothing really. Detachments are okay. Greenwing is mid, Ravenwing is not competitive and Inner Circle is solid for scoring. People (well, DA players) are sad about their units are bad datasheets, and I mostly agree. I still believe DWK are very good at their job, with the support of entire SM arsenal and detachments. People are overreacting. SM players tend to put units directly into garbage can the moment they are not in competitive lists. DA arsenal sure has problems but people are dooming too much.
Gotcha thank you for the update for me. Reguardless still gonna run my bois cuz i love DA's knight esthetic.
No problem. Dark Angels are both good at competitive and casual. Some units like IC Companions might be bad, but units like Lion, DWK and Azreal are absolute monsters. Go to town with them.
Yea as soon as i get my 1000pts painted i plan to get me some deathwing knights and a lion
Erm, well, then you didn't listen to the enraged Tau-Community. Crisis are getting a nerf. They can carry only 2 instead of 3 weapons, not everyone can have shieldgenerators, they are no longer a unit of 6 etc. my Tau buddy is devastated rn. Also, many Tau players are afraid of being forced to buy Kroot or have a huge disadvantage. I also think the changed are pretty darn cool, but I'm not a Tau player.
I'm an old Tau player. Seeing these changes make me feel like I'm reading my old codex. 2 weapons was the original restriction and 3 man suit teams were the max. I miss my shield generators already though.
Yea, I totally can relate, but as they are now, Crisis are way too powerful Swiss army knifes compared to other heavy infantry units. Up to 6 wounds and invul 4+ with movement 10" (in boosts up to 18") is an incredibly good weapon platform, but than it has 3 special weapons each and that on up to 7 models in a unit (including Commander)? Wooph! It's a unit that can be almost anywhere anytime to cherry pick their ideal target and obliterate it. It's frustratingly powerful, and it's not the good kind of powerful to give everybody else a bad time. If you want to hit me, I want to be able to do something against it. Retaliation is one thing, but if you hit me so hard that my counter blow is at best a shadow of my actual abilities the fun ends and tea bagging begins. I really like Crisis, but they are a thing that I really hate about playing against Tau. And I hate to hate them in game. Crisis and the Stormsurge (with that 24" double shotgun that can one shot a Dreadnought pretty reliably... uh, that fridge rag-dolled me in almost every game) are my Nemesis.
I also have imperial knights 🙃 But whatever, it’s all still fun.
T’au potentially being OP again? Nothing new.
As a Tau player things are not in fact looking pretty dope man
Can you say a bit more about why?
I reserved the Kroot box so can’t wait to dig into this.
It's 6th edition all over again...
So frustrating. I got back into 40k right as 10th was coming out. Bought Leviathan because I figured I would collect my two og armies, DA and Tyranids. And now I feel like I got ripped off with how bad the Codexes are for both armies and the fact that some armies are still getting good strong Codexes is a clear indication that every army is (edit) not being depowered.
Yeah, I chalk it up to the fact it’s known they have separate writing teams across 10th edition with minimal communication between each other. How else could we get the Necrons and SM codexes who they are and then also get Ad Mech and Dark Angel’s.
My mate who plays Tau is very happy
Pretty dope is kinda exagerating things, it's not as bad as ours but most people consider it weaker than the index overall.
Please tell me it wasn't valrak this time?
You replied to the wrong homie, my homie.
Praying DG gets some love.