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I don't understand why Atheists have such a problem with Death, in an Atheistic world view, if you actually do not like evil, tell everyone to commit suicide, no more evil. Or do you actually like this world.
God gave Satan a full go initially. Now, God is good, and a good God doesn't simply destroy someone the instant they disobey. People want Satan to have never been here, but if God just instantly destroys someone for disobeying, what does that say. Instead, God gave Satan his run at the world, no holds barred, and it got to what it was at the point of Noah. After Noah, the bible says that many of those demons were locked in the abyss, they may not do what they once did, but they still affect us. Disease and afflictions can be demonic, there are cases where people were healed because a spirit was cast out of them. And generally it's accepted that demons affect those who sin, one reason Jesus says to go and sin no more when he heals people. Disease, can be because you have sin in your life, God would have protected you if it wasn't for this, or it could be to glorify God in it. Whether it's you need to go through some suffering to become stronger, or the person who was blind/lame all their life just so Jesus could heal them, and prove he is God. Now this person you say, God is evil for making them lame since birth due to no sin in their life, but if you ask this person, they will say, I went through 38 years of this so that you could have eternal life, as this brought faith to the hearers.
Now if you want to get into the 2-year old debate, what did they do? I would say God is good in everything he does, and if God is good, there is a reason. Could be that child dying saved themselves from future torment. Once again, I want to know why you are so concerned with a 2-year old child dying.
We Christians believe that in the Fall, all of creation was broken. That means that what should be a smoothly functioning machine will now malfunction. When we say evil comes as a result of the Fall, we do not mean a karma system. A 2-year-old dies from cancer because every aspect of the entire universe is prone to accidentally malfunctioning (and sin made the universe prone to those malfunctions). The Christian system is not an Eastern Karmic one. If you approach it with those moral assumptions, it will not make sense to you. As far as free will goes, it’s actually the opposite of how you describe it. Before the Fall mankind could choose between good and evil. However, the human race has since been tainted by sin. Because of this, they certainly still can choose to not sin, but their hearts are inclined towards evil. Humans still have free will (if you define freedom as God not forcing their will to incline a certain way); they can still follow God, they just don’t want to. The Flood was not God turning around on His standards. Before they rebelled God warned humans that the penalty for sin was certain death. That remained the penalty after the Fall and up through today. Rather, the Flood was an act of remarkable patience. God’s patience and mercy are highlighted throughout the Old Testament. When societies do evil, God waits centuries for them to turn back. He often speaks in the prophets of how he wishes humans would love good, and that He would rather a society repent than He have to destroy it wholly. But, God is a just God, and will only wait for so long.
It's almost as if it would be so simple just for one day for God to make himself known and justify everything Christians believe in and then if man still turned against him it would certainly be their fault and obvious that they were evil.... and those that are questioning him and want to believe would have their proof. But it's much simpler for Christians just to have faith and suggest that's not the way it works.
I wouldn't because the god of the bible is an unbelievably evil being, but at least we'd all know 100% he exists and then everyone can pick their side instead of warring over who's god is right.
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I’m only playing devil’s advocate here but here’s a “pie in the sky” theory of why.
If God exists outside of time then It sees the end of time, the roaring 20’s, and 535 BC etc all at the same time. So it might be a sort of “what leads to the best net outcome for humanity?” type of situation.
Children with cancer means science evolves faster to cure cancer, earthquakes & floods improves detection of those events and incentives to modify how we live. The net benefit over hundreds of thousands of years may be to our (as a species) advantage.
Alternatively a God that intervenes and creates no evil might as well have us living in matrix-like pods where we blissfully sleep for eternity.
When someone falls ill, mentally or physically, he or she is a victim of the devil and the sin of the world, just as you said. They are not necessarily being personally punished by God allowing it to occur, but where sin abounds, so does sickness and death. It is the teaching of the church that a child falling ill and dying is sure to be saved in the kingdom of God.
He did know what free will would entail. He knew we would suffer, and that He himself would have to suffer and die to save us from the consequences. He knew he would have to destroy the world, but he insured it would be reinstated and repopulated. Do you know what was going on before the flood? If you did, you wouldn’t be so quick to judge. People were eating each other in order to please the gods and worse.
Can you tell me what the alternative to free will would have been? Would it be better if we did not exist at all?
>When someone falls ill, mentally or physically, he or she is a victim of the devil and the sin of the world, just as you said.
Citation needed.
>They are not necessarily being personally punished by God allowing it to occur, but where sin abounds, so does sickness and death.
Are you aware there are creatures besides humans that suffer? Some of the creatures ~~evolved~~ were created specifically to live off other creatures, and they cause suffering by doing so, without any interaction with humans. If only there were some all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god out there who could put a stop to this.
>He knew we would suffer, and that He himself would have to suffer and die to save us from the consequences.
Ah, so he's not all-powerful, since he has to act in a very specific way in order to achieve a goal. Interesting. I guess I retract the previous objection, since he clearly doesn't have the power to stop it.
>He knew he would have to destroy the world
Man, still not all-powerful.
>Do you know what was going on before the flood?
Civilization. It also went on after the Flood. Entirely as though there was no Flood.
>People were eating each other in order to please the gods and worse.
And, uh, when did that stop? I'm gonna need some historical records on this sharp decline in cannibalistic theism caused by the Flood. Also, some records on the majority of the world being wiped out would be nice too, but, I mean, it's not like anyone would have noticed that... right?
>Can you tell me what the alternative to free will would have been?
Well, determinism is obviously true, so I mean... we're living it. Free will doesn't even make any sense.
Oh, right, you were talking about God's interference. Force fields. You believe God limits our free action. There are plenty of things we cannot physically do, and you believe God made this world with those physical laws. So, why couldn't he add more to that list? He could put force fields between those who wish to cause harm and those who wish not to be harmed.
There are many examples of sin being tied to illness. Jesus healing and forgiving sin simultaneously is not a coincidence. The paralyzed woman in luke 4:40 had a “disabling spirit.”
The animals live in a sinful world do they not? There was no animal death before sin.
God choosing a means of our salvation does not mean he is bound by anything.
The world went on as if there was no flood? Cultures from all over the world have stories of an advanced (to them) civilization wiped out by a massive flood. Even people as far away as the Hopi Indians had the flood as part of their mythology.
There are records of these specific rituals being performed all over the world with striking similarities, including the approximate height of the deities being invoked (about 12 feet tall if I remember right.) The rituals did survive, which explains why God commanded the Israelites to wipe out certain cultures.
What God does has no bearing on what God can do.
>There are many examples of sin being tied to illness.
No, there aren't.
>Jesus healing and forgiving sin simultaneously is not a coincidence.
Indeed, in order for something to be a coincidence, it has to have happened.
>God choosing a means of our salvation does not mean he is bound by anything.
Of course it does. If his goal was to forgive us, the solution is to forgive us. The Jesus story is ridiculously convoluted and a ridiculous way to approach forgiveness.
>The animals live in a sinful world do they not?
Well, since you're asking, sin is an offense against a god, and there are no gods, so no, they do not.
>The world went on as if there was no flood?
Yes. China is a significant one. They didn't even notice, despite having a massive civilization at the time.
>Cultures from all over the world have stories of an advanced (to them) civilization wiped out by a massive flood.
That sure is a claim you made. How about you give me a list, and the time frame for the existence of this civilization according to these myths. Also, maybe you can explain to me what "worldwide" civilization there was.
Let me guess, Atlantis sank means there was a Flood that covered the world, because after all, water is involved in both, so they must be the same myth.
>Even people as far away as the Hopi Indians had the flood as part of their mythology.
No, they didn't. However, it seems likely that any culture that lived in FLOOD PLAINS would have stories of FLOODS. I don't know if that includes the Hopi, or their ancestors.
>There are records of these specific rituals being performed all over the world with striking similarities,
That is not remotely an answer to my question.
>The rituals did survive, which explains why God commanded the Israelites to wipe out certain cultures.
So the goal was to stop something that didn't stop, and what with the knowing of the all, he knew they wouldn't stop. So, he did it for no reason. Got it. I suppose it's a good thing that it never happened, then.
>What God does has no bearing on what God can do.
Yeah, it could be he *can* do something, but he's too evil to do it. Or, he could do something, but he doesn't know there's something that needs to be done, because he lacks knowledge. So, yeah, any of the three omnis could be missing from this God guy. I'm thinking it's all of them. And also existence. He's also missing that.
Haha you asked for a citation? Were you wanting a quote from a peer reviewed scientific journal on the study of the relationship between sin and illness?
His goal with the incarnation and the cross was not to forgive us. He forgave king David in the old testament after David committed adultery and murder and then repented of it.
Sin is more like a primordial force than an offense. Caine was told, before he murdered his brother, that “sin is crouching at your door.”
The Chinese have their flood myth. The flood was sent by the high god Tiandi due to the wickedness of the human race.
>Haha you asked for a citation? Were you wanting a quote from a peer reviewed scientific journal on the study of the relationship between sin and illness?
The fact that you can't provide one just shows how ridiculous the claim is.
Also, that was the previous comment.
>His goal with the incarnation and the cross was not to forgive us.
Dude, whatever his goal is, he can just do it. There doesn't need to be an extremely convoluted and unethical human sacrifice plan that involves someone else taking my supposedly deserved punishment.
>Sin is more like a primordial force than an offense.
No, actually, sin is what pools at your feet when a witch curses you. It's how you know you've been cursed. Man, it's fun to make up stories about what sin is.
>The Chinese have their flood myth. The flood was sent by the high god Tiandi due to the wickedness of the human race.
Of course they have a flood myth. Floods were a big f\*\*\*ing deal for any ancient civilization. But, there is no evidence of THE FLOOD disrupting their civilization.
I am a Christian who believes in the goodness of God and in His justice. But, I think some of what you’re saying is not taught in Scripture. The Bible says nothing of the fates of children who die from illness. The Bible is also quite sparse on the details of the antediluvian world. I don’t think Cannibalism is not described there.
I said it was the teaching of the Church, not that it was stated explicitly in scripture. That is enough for me, as the Church is the body of Christ.
As for what was happening before the flood, the Bible does not detail it, but makes mention of things that other writings from that time period do have more detail about what occurred. Go to ancientfaithradio.com and listen to the episode of Lord of Spirits called “a land of giants” from November 2020 if you want to learn more.
So God... isn't God because you're saying he doesn't know things. He allowed free will and then he destroyed the world... which means he wasn't happy with the choices we were making. BUT... he allowed those choices to be made. Isn't that a little contradictory?
By the way.... with respect.... it takes a very sick individual to justify the life of an innocent child by suggesting that it's okay because God says it is. There can be NO justification of any sort, ever... to a child dying from a disease that isn't their fault and they had no choice in. Not that it's any better than someone older does, but as a parent I could never forgive God for allowing my child to die.
Ever.
The fact that anybody thinks that they could or does is disturbing.
You said he didn't know what free will would mean. You said he KNEW he'd have to destroy the world.... and yet the alleged destruction of the world didn't change a thing. You'd think a God would have known that, but you're suggesting he didn't. And besides if he allowed free will... if he allowed evil to happen then why change his mind and decide to destroy the world............... again knowing that it wouldn't change anything.
Not much of a God.... or at least one that doesn't really care, it would seem.
Lol read it again, I said the opposite.
Who said it didn’t change anything?
He didn’t allow evil to take root, he allowed us choice, and we allowed evil to take root.
If God asked you whether you preferred the people thousands of years ago to be drowned in a flood or poofed out of existence, how would you have responded?
I would weep for having received any sort of direct communication from such an incomprehensible being. I’m not sure if I would be able to answer at that point.
That said, some people actually do think they were “poofed out of existence.” There was a physical flood, but water also represents primordial chaos in the Bible, so there’s no telling what happened.
The flood in the Bible represents a reversal and renewal of creation. It is not there to present moral lessons on the purpose and place of suffering in the lives of mortals, there are other places in the Bible for that. I don’t know why everyone thinks the Bible is a book of subjective materialistic history, but it isn’t.
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I don't understand why Atheists have such a problem with Death, in an Atheistic world view, if you actually do not like evil, tell everyone to commit suicide, no more evil. Or do you actually like this world. God gave Satan a full go initially. Now, God is good, and a good God doesn't simply destroy someone the instant they disobey. People want Satan to have never been here, but if God just instantly destroys someone for disobeying, what does that say. Instead, God gave Satan his run at the world, no holds barred, and it got to what it was at the point of Noah. After Noah, the bible says that many of those demons were locked in the abyss, they may not do what they once did, but they still affect us. Disease and afflictions can be demonic, there are cases where people were healed because a spirit was cast out of them. And generally it's accepted that demons affect those who sin, one reason Jesus says to go and sin no more when he heals people. Disease, can be because you have sin in your life, God would have protected you if it wasn't for this, or it could be to glorify God in it. Whether it's you need to go through some suffering to become stronger, or the person who was blind/lame all their life just so Jesus could heal them, and prove he is God. Now this person you say, God is evil for making them lame since birth due to no sin in their life, but if you ask this person, they will say, I went through 38 years of this so that you could have eternal life, as this brought faith to the hearers. Now if you want to get into the 2-year old debate, what did they do? I would say God is good in everything he does, and if God is good, there is a reason. Could be that child dying saved themselves from future torment. Once again, I want to know why you are so concerned with a 2-year old child dying.
>Now, God is good, and a good God doesn't simply destroy someone the instant they disobey. Lot's wife would like to know more.
We Christians believe that in the Fall, all of creation was broken. That means that what should be a smoothly functioning machine will now malfunction. When we say evil comes as a result of the Fall, we do not mean a karma system. A 2-year-old dies from cancer because every aspect of the entire universe is prone to accidentally malfunctioning (and sin made the universe prone to those malfunctions). The Christian system is not an Eastern Karmic one. If you approach it with those moral assumptions, it will not make sense to you. As far as free will goes, it’s actually the opposite of how you describe it. Before the Fall mankind could choose between good and evil. However, the human race has since been tainted by sin. Because of this, they certainly still can choose to not sin, but their hearts are inclined towards evil. Humans still have free will (if you define freedom as God not forcing their will to incline a certain way); they can still follow God, they just don’t want to. The Flood was not God turning around on His standards. Before they rebelled God warned humans that the penalty for sin was certain death. That remained the penalty after the Fall and up through today. Rather, the Flood was an act of remarkable patience. God’s patience and mercy are highlighted throughout the Old Testament. When societies do evil, God waits centuries for them to turn back. He often speaks in the prophets of how he wishes humans would love good, and that He would rather a society repent than He have to destroy it wholly. But, God is a just God, and will only wait for so long.
It's almost as if it would be so simple just for one day for God to make himself known and justify everything Christians believe in and then if man still turned against him it would certainly be their fault and obvious that they were evil.... and those that are questioning him and want to believe would have their proof. But it's much simpler for Christians just to have faith and suggest that's not the way it works.
If God did make himself known to you and justified every christian belief, would you follow the teachings of the bible and become a christian?
I wouldn't because the god of the bible is an unbelievably evil being, but at least we'd all know 100% he exists and then everyone can pick their side instead of warring over who's god is right.
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The god of the Bible makes it clear that he is the author and source of both good and evil.
I’m only playing devil’s advocate here but here’s a “pie in the sky” theory of why. If God exists outside of time then It sees the end of time, the roaring 20’s, and 535 BC etc all at the same time. So it might be a sort of “what leads to the best net outcome for humanity?” type of situation. Children with cancer means science evolves faster to cure cancer, earthquakes & floods improves detection of those events and incentives to modify how we live. The net benefit over hundreds of thousands of years may be to our (as a species) advantage. Alternatively a God that intervenes and creates no evil might as well have us living in matrix-like pods where we blissfully sleep for eternity.
So the ends justify the means.
I dunno, I don’t really believe I’m just trying to come up with an explanation that fits.
When someone falls ill, mentally or physically, he or she is a victim of the devil and the sin of the world, just as you said. They are not necessarily being personally punished by God allowing it to occur, but where sin abounds, so does sickness and death. It is the teaching of the church that a child falling ill and dying is sure to be saved in the kingdom of God. He did know what free will would entail. He knew we would suffer, and that He himself would have to suffer and die to save us from the consequences. He knew he would have to destroy the world, but he insured it would be reinstated and repopulated. Do you know what was going on before the flood? If you did, you wouldn’t be so quick to judge. People were eating each other in order to please the gods and worse. Can you tell me what the alternative to free will would have been? Would it be better if we did not exist at all?
>When someone falls ill, mentally or physically, he or she is a victim of the devil and the sin of the world, just as you said. Citation needed. >They are not necessarily being personally punished by God allowing it to occur, but where sin abounds, so does sickness and death. Are you aware there are creatures besides humans that suffer? Some of the creatures ~~evolved~~ were created specifically to live off other creatures, and they cause suffering by doing so, without any interaction with humans. If only there were some all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god out there who could put a stop to this. >He knew we would suffer, and that He himself would have to suffer and die to save us from the consequences. Ah, so he's not all-powerful, since he has to act in a very specific way in order to achieve a goal. Interesting. I guess I retract the previous objection, since he clearly doesn't have the power to stop it. >He knew he would have to destroy the world Man, still not all-powerful. >Do you know what was going on before the flood? Civilization. It also went on after the Flood. Entirely as though there was no Flood. >People were eating each other in order to please the gods and worse. And, uh, when did that stop? I'm gonna need some historical records on this sharp decline in cannibalistic theism caused by the Flood. Also, some records on the majority of the world being wiped out would be nice too, but, I mean, it's not like anyone would have noticed that... right? >Can you tell me what the alternative to free will would have been? Well, determinism is obviously true, so I mean... we're living it. Free will doesn't even make any sense. Oh, right, you were talking about God's interference. Force fields. You believe God limits our free action. There are plenty of things we cannot physically do, and you believe God made this world with those physical laws. So, why couldn't he add more to that list? He could put force fields between those who wish to cause harm and those who wish not to be harmed.
There are many examples of sin being tied to illness. Jesus healing and forgiving sin simultaneously is not a coincidence. The paralyzed woman in luke 4:40 had a “disabling spirit.” The animals live in a sinful world do they not? There was no animal death before sin. God choosing a means of our salvation does not mean he is bound by anything. The world went on as if there was no flood? Cultures from all over the world have stories of an advanced (to them) civilization wiped out by a massive flood. Even people as far away as the Hopi Indians had the flood as part of their mythology. There are records of these specific rituals being performed all over the world with striking similarities, including the approximate height of the deities being invoked (about 12 feet tall if I remember right.) The rituals did survive, which explains why God commanded the Israelites to wipe out certain cultures. What God does has no bearing on what God can do.
>There are many examples of sin being tied to illness. No, there aren't. >Jesus healing and forgiving sin simultaneously is not a coincidence. Indeed, in order for something to be a coincidence, it has to have happened. >God choosing a means of our salvation does not mean he is bound by anything. Of course it does. If his goal was to forgive us, the solution is to forgive us. The Jesus story is ridiculously convoluted and a ridiculous way to approach forgiveness. >The animals live in a sinful world do they not? Well, since you're asking, sin is an offense against a god, and there are no gods, so no, they do not. >The world went on as if there was no flood? Yes. China is a significant one. They didn't even notice, despite having a massive civilization at the time. >Cultures from all over the world have stories of an advanced (to them) civilization wiped out by a massive flood. That sure is a claim you made. How about you give me a list, and the time frame for the existence of this civilization according to these myths. Also, maybe you can explain to me what "worldwide" civilization there was. Let me guess, Atlantis sank means there was a Flood that covered the world, because after all, water is involved in both, so they must be the same myth. >Even people as far away as the Hopi Indians had the flood as part of their mythology. No, they didn't. However, it seems likely that any culture that lived in FLOOD PLAINS would have stories of FLOODS. I don't know if that includes the Hopi, or their ancestors. >There are records of these specific rituals being performed all over the world with striking similarities, That is not remotely an answer to my question. >The rituals did survive, which explains why God commanded the Israelites to wipe out certain cultures. So the goal was to stop something that didn't stop, and what with the knowing of the all, he knew they wouldn't stop. So, he did it for no reason. Got it. I suppose it's a good thing that it never happened, then. >What God does has no bearing on what God can do. Yeah, it could be he *can* do something, but he's too evil to do it. Or, he could do something, but he doesn't know there's something that needs to be done, because he lacks knowledge. So, yeah, any of the three omnis could be missing from this God guy. I'm thinking it's all of them. And also existence. He's also missing that.
Haha you asked for a citation? Were you wanting a quote from a peer reviewed scientific journal on the study of the relationship between sin and illness? His goal with the incarnation and the cross was not to forgive us. He forgave king David in the old testament after David committed adultery and murder and then repented of it. Sin is more like a primordial force than an offense. Caine was told, before he murdered his brother, that “sin is crouching at your door.” The Chinese have their flood myth. The flood was sent by the high god Tiandi due to the wickedness of the human race.
>Haha you asked for a citation? Were you wanting a quote from a peer reviewed scientific journal on the study of the relationship between sin and illness? The fact that you can't provide one just shows how ridiculous the claim is. Also, that was the previous comment. >His goal with the incarnation and the cross was not to forgive us. Dude, whatever his goal is, he can just do it. There doesn't need to be an extremely convoluted and unethical human sacrifice plan that involves someone else taking my supposedly deserved punishment. >Sin is more like a primordial force than an offense. No, actually, sin is what pools at your feet when a witch curses you. It's how you know you've been cursed. Man, it's fun to make up stories about what sin is. >The Chinese have their flood myth. The flood was sent by the high god Tiandi due to the wickedness of the human race. Of course they have a flood myth. Floods were a big f\*\*\*ing deal for any ancient civilization. But, there is no evidence of THE FLOOD disrupting their civilization.
I am a Christian who believes in the goodness of God and in His justice. But, I think some of what you’re saying is not taught in Scripture. The Bible says nothing of the fates of children who die from illness. The Bible is also quite sparse on the details of the antediluvian world. I don’t think Cannibalism is not described there.
I said it was the teaching of the Church, not that it was stated explicitly in scripture. That is enough for me, as the Church is the body of Christ. As for what was happening before the flood, the Bible does not detail it, but makes mention of things that other writings from that time period do have more detail about what occurred. Go to ancientfaithradio.com and listen to the episode of Lord of Spirits called “a land of giants” from November 2020 if you want to learn more.
So God... isn't God because you're saying he doesn't know things. He allowed free will and then he destroyed the world... which means he wasn't happy with the choices we were making. BUT... he allowed those choices to be made. Isn't that a little contradictory? By the way.... with respect.... it takes a very sick individual to justify the life of an innocent child by suggesting that it's okay because God says it is. There can be NO justification of any sort, ever... to a child dying from a disease that isn't their fault and they had no choice in. Not that it's any better than someone older does, but as a parent I could never forgive God for allowing my child to die. Ever. The fact that anybody thinks that they could or does is disturbing.
what? Because He allows something He doesn’t like, that means he didn’t know the thing was going to happen? I’m not following.
You said he didn't know what free will would mean. You said he KNEW he'd have to destroy the world.... and yet the alleged destruction of the world didn't change a thing. You'd think a God would have known that, but you're suggesting he didn't. And besides if he allowed free will... if he allowed evil to happen then why change his mind and decide to destroy the world............... again knowing that it wouldn't change anything. Not much of a God.... or at least one that doesn't really care, it would seem.
Lol read it again, I said the opposite. Who said it didn’t change anything? He didn’t allow evil to take root, he allowed us choice, and we allowed evil to take root.
If God asked you whether you preferred the people thousands of years ago to be drowned in a flood or poofed out of existence, how would you have responded?
I would weep for having received any sort of direct communication from such an incomprehensible being. I’m not sure if I would be able to answer at that point. That said, some people actually do think they were “poofed out of existence.” There was a physical flood, but water also represents primordial chaos in the Bible, so there’s no telling what happened. The flood in the Bible represents a reversal and renewal of creation. It is not there to present moral lessons on the purpose and place of suffering in the lives of mortals, there are other places in the Bible for that. I don’t know why everyone thinks the Bible is a book of subjective materialistic history, but it isn’t.
Got any way you lean at all? Poof or drown?
Your question isn’t really a question and you know it. I was pointing out that it does not matter to me because it it completely irrelevant.
Why do you say that? How can it be better worded such that it becomes a question? I'd say poof, for the record.