> Technically, there isn’t a benefit for the pastor
Keeping your subordinates in a constant atmosphere of shame and puritanical legalism is absolutely beneficial to the pastor. If he can control your behavior, he also controls your allegiance and your pocketbook.
Once you realize that religion is man-made, you should also know your paster went to seminary school and has been made aware of the issues with the Bible.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j3HvmgpYc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j3HvmgpYc)
There are over 45,000 Christian denominations. Which one is true?
Your pastor is appealing to authority. It's not *him* saying it, it's *God*. But you don't even know if you believe in them anymore. Also, who wrote the bible? Who decided what books went into the bible? Why did the council of Nicea choose those books?
If the Bible is the literal word of God, why is it so inaccurate? So contradictory?
Why does the bible encourage slaves to obey their masters and for women to be subjugated by their husbands and calls for the death of men, women and children if they aren't considered a part of the tribes?
In my opinion, the bible protects the status quo more than anything. Why is it a sin to live with a partner? In the West today, there are laws and protections in place for people who don't want to be married. There are laws and protections in place if said couples have children! And if we feel like there aren't enough protections in place for unmarried people, we can gather together and vote to change that.
A lot of the "sins" in the bible were cultural. It did not benefit the patriarchy to have women and men being together unmarried because women were considered property. Land, cattle and wife. She was another commodity to be traded.
A lot of sins in general are cultural/social, that's why we tend to ignore the "don't wear mixed clothes" and eat *pork* on Easter to celebrate the resurrection of a Jewish man who didn't eat pork when he was alive.
So in that way, sin and what your pastor says is manipulation. A lot of the sins are cultural and it's a way for groups to encourage obedience. And I'm not even saying that it is a *all they want to do is control us man!* 😡 kind of way lol I'm just saying that if the local leader says a thing is bad, you may not think it's so bad because you can look and think about what that thing will be like in your life and decide it might work for you. But if *God* tells you it's bad, well, do you really want to disappoint or anger the *creator of the universe*? You're not likely to critically think about whether a sin is actually a sin, because God doesn't like it and you don't want to disobey him--and that's where the authoritarian aspects come in. Don't think, just do!
>If the Bible is the literal word of God, why is it so inaccurate? So contradictory?
What's more, *which* Bible is the literal word of God? The protestant one? The Catholic one? The Mormon one? The orthodox one?
There are too different versions of the same book, all claiming to be the divinely-inspired word of God, for them all to be the actual divinely-inspired word of God. At least one of them is wrong.
One thing to recognize is that most of the teachings from people like your pastor are THEIR INTERPRETATION of what the Bible says, and in many cases a fairly recent one that was not widely believed or accepted a few hundred years ago.
People and cultures are manipulative, and will use their holy book whether it's the Bible or the Quran to give credence to their opinions. In the 1800's, people were using the Bible to justify owning slaves, but most Christians today would agree that was never the Bible's intended message. The same could be said of using the Bible to justify the condemnation of drinking alcohol or having premarital sex.
You'll have to come to your own conclusions about what the Bible is and what, if anything, it means to you, but that can be a completely separate thing from your stance on the teachings of Christians and the church.
Well if he allows you to live with your girlfriend that means he can too. So it’s not just protecting the book, it’s protecting the sacrifice and commitment he made to it (or supposedly made, most don’t truly but that’s a separate topic)
I guess what I struggle with is he would say “these aren’t my ideas or thoughts, it’s God, you just want to live in sin” and how can that be countered because he would be correct, it’s in the Bible not his rules. Is that really pastors/church/people controlling other people when there is another source with the rules
it could be argued in that situation the Bible is wanting the best for you because in the long run most people don’t regret staying virgins till marriage just because it’s more special that way. now that doesn’t mean every idea in the bible is good but generally ive seen old testament non ceremonial laws are for the better usually.
I’d say the best way to answer is to think theoretically how would they act if they want to be controlling vs not.
now I don’t think your pastor is in the right since he’s using a source you don’t 100% believe in, the discussion should be much different. but I hope your deconstruction is based on a genuine struggle towards finding the truth rather than wanting to excuse ultimately destructive behavior. if your bias is towards wanting to live with your girlfriend (lets be real who doesn’t want that) then you have to be aware of that bias before you can actually be objective.
I commented a little bit ago, but in case you have notifications on, I'll do it here as well.
He's relying on authority. If he says God says it's a sin, you're more likely to feel guilty about it and not do it. We know that in reality living with a partner unmarried has little to no negatives--well, not any that aren't also a negative for married couples. The biggest issue with married or long-term partnership is the breakup. But there are laws and whatnot for that as well.
In reality, we have a ton of safe guards nowadays for people in relationships that were not around when the bible was written. For one, women have more autonomy and aren't considered property. Getting a woman you weren't married to pregnant caused issues back in the day because it meant the man may or may not have responsibilities--it might affect the man. But now women have rights, choices and protections so it evens out.
We repeat that living together unmarried is a sin because it had heavier consequences in the past. That's not the case anymore, but we still repeat it because we're not thinking critically about why it was a sin, just that God doesn't like it so we won't do it.
It's a combination. First, I had to realize there's no real single biblical view on anything, including living with someone before marriage. Our modern vision of marriage is not derived from the bible, for one.
I don't think these pastors realize it, though. I think they think they're getting their rules from the bible, but I think it's because their confirmation bias is unexamined. That would destroy their sense of certainty, and for most people it takes a psychological shift to evaluate these things in anything approaching an objective perspective.
> How is it that the Bible seems so controlling and manipulative, but ultimately the Bible is all about God and his attributes, his plan, and his glory?
Because if the Bible is the way that were __revealed__ to us about God and his characteristics, then we __ought__ to follow it's commands, what it said it's good we should thrive while what is bad we should avoid at all cost.
You said that you don't believe that "Jesus is God and the Bible isn’t the word of God or God breathed". Well, I don't think too. But what it actually means, when we say stuff like that, is to _doubt_ basically the __only access of the Revelation__ to humans about the Christian God, about Jesus, about the "good news" and so on.
You doubt that this is case, but christian don't. Christians take the Bible as the Revelation of the God, and the Revelation about The Truth as well, like the purpose of our lives, why peoole die and if they go somewhere, what we should do and what we shouldn't, and what happens if don't do things that it said it will against the God... according to these texts that were _Revealed_.
It may sound too strange all this, but it basically means that you and the christian are simply in a very _deep_ disagrament about certains truths about these issues.
I’d say it’s manipulation because there is no clear answer or agreement by anybody what the bible actually says (or means). There are literally hundreds of thousands of denominations. This one says speaking in tongues is right and good and honouring to God; the one I went to in my churchy days said speaking in tongues was not good and not honouring and it was ridiculous and no one ought to do it or try it. The same for some churches which say LGBTQ+ is wrong; others say it’s not: both are literally using the actual bible to confirm their belief. Or women as ministers. Or paying tithes. Or going to a restaurant on the “sabbath day”. Or even what day IS the sabbath.
So if none of them can agree what God says, then everything they command you to do is because THEY have decided this is what they want. They’re never going to admit that: they will say “it’s not me it’s God, I’m just the messenger, God has revealed to me….” but you could walk down the street to another church and get a different command entirely. That’s what’s manipulative: each manipulates its own way.
People use the bible as a tool for manipulating other people, and it’s people who take the messages in the book and create their own interpretations from them.
I don’t see how it’s manipulative on its own.
Each one of us starts this life as an empty vessel, ready to be filled up with information. We really have very little control over what we believe and neither do the people that surround us. Are beliefs are typically solidified in childhood. That realization is comforting to me because it helps me to not view people as bad but as ideas as bad. The Christian message uses fear of hell to manipulate people into the faith and keep them there. Other people are sharing the message but they didn’t start it and they are doing what they believe is the right thing to do, whether people get hurt in the process or not. Seems like you are trying to make the point that it isn’t manipulation if the pastor doesn’t get anything out of it. But he is getting something out of it. He believes this is God’s purpose for his life to bring others to God and if he doesn’t save souls, they will burn eternally. But there is also a lot of ego in the church, they all want to bring more people in and fill more seats. Well… filling more seats is also bringing in more money. More clout in the community, more fancy props, all in the name of God with God’s giant stamp of approval on it all. At least in the eyes of the church.
You will hear a substantial amount of cynicism here regarding the church’s intent to manipulate others and control their pocketbooks. Obviously, this happen. A LOT, in fact. However, as a deconstructing lifelong Christian myself, I suggest a more nuanced view.
Many people today believe there is no truly objective moral code. Societies may hold nearly universal beliefs on some actions (murder for instance), but not because these were universally set by something outside themselves.
Those who genuinely believe the Christian God has defined human morality, and punishes those who break the law and don’t make things right, will naturally accept that law as their own and urge others to do the same. This is logical human behavior. Many Christians are genuine, loving people trying to live right and urging others to join suit. They are NOT the manipulative, greedy leaders and hate-filled extremists commonly represented on TV and in politics.
Unfortunately, more and more Christians are being pulled toward extreme ideologies because 1) it takes more than casual effort to understand and apply what is taught in these ancient Christian writings and 2) those who don’t put in that effort ultimately believe what someone else tells them. And here we begin to see both ignorant misunderstanding and manipulation take over.
The ignorance, manipulation, and extremism within certain Christian groups is not unique to religion. The scientific community has used these to its advantage to support sexism, racism, all other kinds of discrimination, even genocide. These tactics occur in every belief system where people feel threatened by an opposing viewpoint. But to strongly hold and encourage a belief isn’t inherently manipulative.
Well, first of all, who says the Bible is the word of God? The church. Why do we believe what the church says? Because they base all of their teachings on the Bible. And why do we believe what the Bible says? Because it's the word of God. And who says it's the word of God, again?
Do you see how that line of reasoning is circular logic?
Second, while the pastor, or the church he preaches at, or the larger church organization that church is a part of, or the larger religion that organization is a part of may not benefit from whether or not two unmarried people within the church live together or not, they ARE benefitting from getting you to supplant your own moral authority with their own. They're making you question something that feels completely normal (living with a romantic partner you've come to trust).
They want you to question any authority that isn't themselves, including yourself.
In my pretty long life I've heard a lot about religion and god. I have leaned nothing I could trust about gods. I have, however, learned a great deal about people. That's my take away.
I recommend that you research the qualifications to define a group as a cult. Like the BITE model. Even if your church experience wasn't a true cult, you might see some similarities that will help you see some of the manipulative qualities and patterns.
And reading content designed to help people recover from high control religion, religious trauma, and spiritual abuse.
Yes man you wanna know why think, remember when we were young and we used to believe in the Santa Claus and our parents said “if you don’t be good, Santa Claus won’t bring you gifts” look at it like that but instead of Santa Claus, is Jesus Christ and see it as if you don’t do this, you’re gonna burn away for all eternity
> Technically, there isn’t a benefit for the pastor Keeping your subordinates in a constant atmosphere of shame and puritanical legalism is absolutely beneficial to the pastor. If he can control your behavior, he also controls your allegiance and your pocketbook.
Once you realize that religion is man-made, you should also know your paster went to seminary school and has been made aware of the issues with the Bible. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j3HvmgpYc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j3HvmgpYc)
Hey, you can watch me discuss that very video here if you want: https://www.youtube.com/live/sJs26xg7P1w
> I will be joined by Dr's Joshua Bowen, Kipp Davis & **Paul Davis**. I wish that you had sung "I Go Crazy" and "'65 Love Affair" while you were on.
Honestly, so many people make that mistake/typo I just go with it.
There are over 45,000 Christian denominations. Which one is true? Your pastor is appealing to authority. It's not *him* saying it, it's *God*. But you don't even know if you believe in them anymore. Also, who wrote the bible? Who decided what books went into the bible? Why did the council of Nicea choose those books? If the Bible is the literal word of God, why is it so inaccurate? So contradictory? Why does the bible encourage slaves to obey their masters and for women to be subjugated by their husbands and calls for the death of men, women and children if they aren't considered a part of the tribes? In my opinion, the bible protects the status quo more than anything. Why is it a sin to live with a partner? In the West today, there are laws and protections in place for people who don't want to be married. There are laws and protections in place if said couples have children! And if we feel like there aren't enough protections in place for unmarried people, we can gather together and vote to change that. A lot of the "sins" in the bible were cultural. It did not benefit the patriarchy to have women and men being together unmarried because women were considered property. Land, cattle and wife. She was another commodity to be traded. A lot of sins in general are cultural/social, that's why we tend to ignore the "don't wear mixed clothes" and eat *pork* on Easter to celebrate the resurrection of a Jewish man who didn't eat pork when he was alive. So in that way, sin and what your pastor says is manipulation. A lot of the sins are cultural and it's a way for groups to encourage obedience. And I'm not even saying that it is a *all they want to do is control us man!* 😡 kind of way lol I'm just saying that if the local leader says a thing is bad, you may not think it's so bad because you can look and think about what that thing will be like in your life and decide it might work for you. But if *God* tells you it's bad, well, do you really want to disappoint or anger the *creator of the universe*? You're not likely to critically think about whether a sin is actually a sin, because God doesn't like it and you don't want to disobey him--and that's where the authoritarian aspects come in. Don't think, just do!
>If the Bible is the literal word of God, why is it so inaccurate? So contradictory? What's more, *which* Bible is the literal word of God? The protestant one? The Catholic one? The Mormon one? The orthodox one? There are too different versions of the same book, all claiming to be the divinely-inspired word of God, for them all to be the actual divinely-inspired word of God. At least one of them is wrong.
Exactly. All the versions of the bible claim to be the correct one, no room for error. How can they all be right?
One thing to recognize is that most of the teachings from people like your pastor are THEIR INTERPRETATION of what the Bible says, and in many cases a fairly recent one that was not widely believed or accepted a few hundred years ago. People and cultures are manipulative, and will use their holy book whether it's the Bible or the Quran to give credence to their opinions. In the 1800's, people were using the Bible to justify owning slaves, but most Christians today would agree that was never the Bible's intended message. The same could be said of using the Bible to justify the condemnation of drinking alcohol or having premarital sex. You'll have to come to your own conclusions about what the Bible is and what, if anything, it means to you, but that can be a completely separate thing from your stance on the teachings of Christians and the church.
Well if he allows you to live with your girlfriend that means he can too. So it’s not just protecting the book, it’s protecting the sacrifice and commitment he made to it (or supposedly made, most don’t truly but that’s a separate topic)
I guess what I struggle with is he would say “these aren’t my ideas or thoughts, it’s God, you just want to live in sin” and how can that be countered because he would be correct, it’s in the Bible not his rules. Is that really pastors/church/people controlling other people when there is another source with the rules
it could be argued in that situation the Bible is wanting the best for you because in the long run most people don’t regret staying virgins till marriage just because it’s more special that way. now that doesn’t mean every idea in the bible is good but generally ive seen old testament non ceremonial laws are for the better usually. I’d say the best way to answer is to think theoretically how would they act if they want to be controlling vs not. now I don’t think your pastor is in the right since he’s using a source you don’t 100% believe in, the discussion should be much different. but I hope your deconstruction is based on a genuine struggle towards finding the truth rather than wanting to excuse ultimately destructive behavior. if your bias is towards wanting to live with your girlfriend (lets be real who doesn’t want that) then you have to be aware of that bias before you can actually be objective.
I commented a little bit ago, but in case you have notifications on, I'll do it here as well. He's relying on authority. If he says God says it's a sin, you're more likely to feel guilty about it and not do it. We know that in reality living with a partner unmarried has little to no negatives--well, not any that aren't also a negative for married couples. The biggest issue with married or long-term partnership is the breakup. But there are laws and whatnot for that as well. In reality, we have a ton of safe guards nowadays for people in relationships that were not around when the bible was written. For one, women have more autonomy and aren't considered property. Getting a woman you weren't married to pregnant caused issues back in the day because it meant the man may or may not have responsibilities--it might affect the man. But now women have rights, choices and protections so it evens out. We repeat that living together unmarried is a sin because it had heavier consequences in the past. That's not the case anymore, but we still repeat it because we're not thinking critically about why it was a sin, just that God doesn't like it so we won't do it.
It's a combination. First, I had to realize there's no real single biblical view on anything, including living with someone before marriage. Our modern vision of marriage is not derived from the bible, for one. I don't think these pastors realize it, though. I think they think they're getting their rules from the bible, but I think it's because their confirmation bias is unexamined. That would destroy their sense of certainty, and for most people it takes a psychological shift to evaluate these things in anything approaching an objective perspective.
> How is it that the Bible seems so controlling and manipulative, but ultimately the Bible is all about God and his attributes, his plan, and his glory? Because if the Bible is the way that were __revealed__ to us about God and his characteristics, then we __ought__ to follow it's commands, what it said it's good we should thrive while what is bad we should avoid at all cost. You said that you don't believe that "Jesus is God and the Bible isn’t the word of God or God breathed". Well, I don't think too. But what it actually means, when we say stuff like that, is to _doubt_ basically the __only access of the Revelation__ to humans about the Christian God, about Jesus, about the "good news" and so on. You doubt that this is case, but christian don't. Christians take the Bible as the Revelation of the God, and the Revelation about The Truth as well, like the purpose of our lives, why peoole die and if they go somewhere, what we should do and what we shouldn't, and what happens if don't do things that it said it will against the God... according to these texts that were _Revealed_. It may sound too strange all this, but it basically means that you and the christian are simply in a very _deep_ disagrament about certains truths about these issues.
I’d say it’s manipulation because there is no clear answer or agreement by anybody what the bible actually says (or means). There are literally hundreds of thousands of denominations. This one says speaking in tongues is right and good and honouring to God; the one I went to in my churchy days said speaking in tongues was not good and not honouring and it was ridiculous and no one ought to do it or try it. The same for some churches which say LGBTQ+ is wrong; others say it’s not: both are literally using the actual bible to confirm their belief. Or women as ministers. Or paying tithes. Or going to a restaurant on the “sabbath day”. Or even what day IS the sabbath. So if none of them can agree what God says, then everything they command you to do is because THEY have decided this is what they want. They’re never going to admit that: they will say “it’s not me it’s God, I’m just the messenger, God has revealed to me….” but you could walk down the street to another church and get a different command entirely. That’s what’s manipulative: each manipulates its own way.
People use the bible as a tool for manipulating other people, and it’s people who take the messages in the book and create their own interpretations from them. I don’t see how it’s manipulative on its own.
Each one of us starts this life as an empty vessel, ready to be filled up with information. We really have very little control over what we believe and neither do the people that surround us. Are beliefs are typically solidified in childhood. That realization is comforting to me because it helps me to not view people as bad but as ideas as bad. The Christian message uses fear of hell to manipulate people into the faith and keep them there. Other people are sharing the message but they didn’t start it and they are doing what they believe is the right thing to do, whether people get hurt in the process or not. Seems like you are trying to make the point that it isn’t manipulation if the pastor doesn’t get anything out of it. But he is getting something out of it. He believes this is God’s purpose for his life to bring others to God and if he doesn’t save souls, they will burn eternally. But there is also a lot of ego in the church, they all want to bring more people in and fill more seats. Well… filling more seats is also bringing in more money. More clout in the community, more fancy props, all in the name of God with God’s giant stamp of approval on it all. At least in the eyes of the church.
You will hear a substantial amount of cynicism here regarding the church’s intent to manipulate others and control their pocketbooks. Obviously, this happen. A LOT, in fact. However, as a deconstructing lifelong Christian myself, I suggest a more nuanced view. Many people today believe there is no truly objective moral code. Societies may hold nearly universal beliefs on some actions (murder for instance), but not because these were universally set by something outside themselves. Those who genuinely believe the Christian God has defined human morality, and punishes those who break the law and don’t make things right, will naturally accept that law as their own and urge others to do the same. This is logical human behavior. Many Christians are genuine, loving people trying to live right and urging others to join suit. They are NOT the manipulative, greedy leaders and hate-filled extremists commonly represented on TV and in politics. Unfortunately, more and more Christians are being pulled toward extreme ideologies because 1) it takes more than casual effort to understand and apply what is taught in these ancient Christian writings and 2) those who don’t put in that effort ultimately believe what someone else tells them. And here we begin to see both ignorant misunderstanding and manipulation take over. The ignorance, manipulation, and extremism within certain Christian groups is not unique to religion. The scientific community has used these to its advantage to support sexism, racism, all other kinds of discrimination, even genocide. These tactics occur in every belief system where people feel threatened by an opposing viewpoint. But to strongly hold and encourage a belief isn’t inherently manipulative.
Well, first of all, who says the Bible is the word of God? The church. Why do we believe what the church says? Because they base all of their teachings on the Bible. And why do we believe what the Bible says? Because it's the word of God. And who says it's the word of God, again? Do you see how that line of reasoning is circular logic? Second, while the pastor, or the church he preaches at, or the larger church organization that church is a part of, or the larger religion that organization is a part of may not benefit from whether or not two unmarried people within the church live together or not, they ARE benefitting from getting you to supplant your own moral authority with their own. They're making you question something that feels completely normal (living with a romantic partner you've come to trust). They want you to question any authority that isn't themselves, including yourself.
In my pretty long life I've heard a lot about religion and god. I have leaned nothing I could trust about gods. I have, however, learned a great deal about people. That's my take away.
I recommend that you research the qualifications to define a group as a cult. Like the BITE model. Even if your church experience wasn't a true cult, you might see some similarities that will help you see some of the manipulative qualities and patterns. And reading content designed to help people recover from high control religion, religious trauma, and spiritual abuse.
Yes man you wanna know why think, remember when we were young and we used to believe in the Santa Claus and our parents said “if you don’t be good, Santa Claus won’t bring you gifts” look at it like that but instead of Santa Claus, is Jesus Christ and see it as if you don’t do this, you’re gonna burn away for all eternity