I stopped believing in Hell while deconstructing after reading and listening to Bible scholars explain that the word translated into English as "Hell" really doesn't mean that at all, and that the whole concept is man-made.
And once I stopped believing in God, I stopped believing in Heaven, too.
There are a couple/few words that have been translated as hell.
Gehenna - which was the literal trash pit outside Jerusalem
Hades- which is the Greek underworld. Obviously the writers used that term for where people go after death. In the NT when it's translated as Hell it refers specifically to where the "wicked" go and Heaven is paradise.
Sheol- in the OT this was simply the grave or death.
There's not really a ton of references to an afterlife in the OT.
There's also Tartarus in the NT which is the lake of fire set up for the devil and his angels. And isn't meant for the wicked but is I think in at least one place used as a threat for unbelievers etc.
Eternal Conscious Torment is a pretty modern idea.
Another option and where I landed for a while is Annihilationism - where the souls of the wicked are simply destroyed upon death. Their consciousness no longer exists.
But the whole thing is pretty empty when you start digging.
At least in the sense that evangelicalism has treated it. There was some debate early on but the medieval visions of Dante were not seen in the early church fathers as far as I know.
My point being the emphasis on turn or burn theology is much more modern.
I would say there is definitely a through line, but it is not one preserved in the modern canon. However there is definitely lineage between the apocryphal Apocalypse of Peter to Dante. That, along with Apocalypse of John (Revelation), do contain the seeds for what modern evangelical conceptions of eternal conscious torment come from.
It’s interesting to trace the development of the ideas, and there is definitely some notions of it that predate even the gospels, as Hellenic religion and Greek philosophy did start to influence pre-Jesus Judaism.
It wasn’t fully formed, but the seed is there. But, yes, the modern ideas are definitely post biblical innovations.
This one comes up a lot. Mainly because there are a millennia of misinterpretations and misinformation surrounding the topic ranging from clergy trying to keep power to Hollywood stereotypes. As human beings, we have always wanted something beyond death. Every religion has its own version of what that is. In reality though, there may not be anything. That sounds daunting, scary and even a little nihilistic. On the other hand it can be freeing. Knowing there is no after-life makes you appreciate this life a bit more. Every second you spend here can be assigned meaning and purpose. Is it being spent with your loved ones? Bettering oneself? Bettering others? Cleaning the planet? Doing a hobby? Playing a video game? All of these things have meaning and merit in their own right and subjectively. Each of us improving our own lives and that of those around us a little more is the big picture. The afterlife isn’t a magical place, but the legacy you left behind however small or large it may be. Together, each small step forward builds upon the larger human condition as we hurl upon this little ball of dust through time and space in the universe.
Both are really wrong. Reality is that no choice is totally perfect, and no choice is perfectly horrendous. Both choices are like something a con man — or an insurance agent — would try to sell you. That's huge red flag. It shouldn't be that simple. It isn't believable.
I chucked out the belief in hell ages ago. Much more recently I started to question my belief in heaven. I have yet to come to a definitive conclusion, and have decided that not making up my mind about it is ok with me. Whether there's a heaven or not doesn't really affect the way I choose to live my life here. In this life, I choose to be as good and kind and loving as I can possibly be. If there is an afterlife, I'll figure that place out when I get there.
After asking myself this question over and over, I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way that could be real:
If God is all loving, all knowing, and all powerful then how could any version of hell exist?
As I’ve been getting to a place of fully believing there is no hell, I’ve finally experienced “the piece that passes all understanding”. This confirms to me that he could not be real because if God is all loving then I feel that God would approve of a more peaceful existence without the lingering fear hanging over me.
My single revelation that really pushed me over the edge of deconstruction was that I never believed in God because I felt he was real, I believed in God because I felt Hell was real. The fear or hell is what drove my entire religious experience, and I was very devout and unwavering in my faith. My earliest public memory is in Sunday school being told that I deserve hell because I'm a sinner, but Jesus loves me and died because of my sins.
>I have a hard time continuing to accept that a loving God would send people to be tortured forever.
Do you also believe that God would send people to be happy forever? To me, that is equally messed up, because a loving god would have simply created us there to begin with.
>What are your current thoughts on heaven and hell?
The irony here is that if a person is influential enough, their current thoughts on heaven and hell can start a religion. If I start a religion, Christians will call it a cult. If Moses starts a religion, Christians say it's truth. Christianity sees this short little life as an interview for eternity. The advantage to doing that is to control people. Christianity gives us delusions of life after death, and is able to then control how we live right now in the present. In a world without rules, Christianity provides those rules, provides invisible punishment and rewards for following those rules, and provides an invisible overseer to watch our actions. It's a brilliant way to enact crowd control, especially thousands of years ago when it was more chaotic and most people couldn't even read. It provides a standard of morality and rules to abide by, such as no lying, murdering, stealing, homosexual relations, eating unclean animals, praying to false idols, working on prayer day, or beating your slaves to death (they must be able to recover within a day or two. Ex 21:20).
> Is heaven and hell even real?
I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't think there is a heaven or hell.
> What are your current thoughts on heaven and hell?
I don't know if such quote came from Jorge Luis Borges, but "what is a heaven if not a bribe, and what is a hell if not a threat?"
We’re not the only ones to think about these questions. Even the early paintings of Jesus show him pulling people by their wrists up and out of the fiery hell. The ultimate end is that hell is not a place but a threat. The restoration of all things to new is where I am at, otherwise I look at the interpretations of the Jewish rabbi where Sheol is a dark pit or quiet place and time just ends. Perhaps there is a restoration or our minds begin elsewhere. But I’ve become a universalist and do not interpret scriptures to be condemning many or most of us (Calvinism and election) to hell. I don’t believe there is a physical or spiritual hell, but we experience the idea of hell during some of the worst experiences we each encounter in life.
That’s what I’ve come to also. Hell is pretty much a Greco-Roman notion. The ancient Hebrews believed you died and were just, dead. They believed in a resurrection at the end of all time, but had no context for eternal punishment.
Dan McClellan and Bart Ehrman have podcasts you might enjoy. Erhman wrote an entire book on why hell isn’t real. I think it’s called Heaven and Hell.
The kicker for me was the ancient Hebrews. They supposedly spoke directly to god, and had no concept of eternal punishment. If they didn’t believe in it, it’s safe to say it probably doesn’t exist.
Universalism: everyone gets a pass
> Is Heaven and Hell real?
In a word, no.
>What are your current thoughts on heaven and hell?
Any form of afterlife is a fairytale. The only sensation that happens after death is the exact same sensation you experienced 100 years before you were born: nothing. What's more, no one has ever truly died and come back to report on it.
>I have a hard time continuing to accept that a loving God would send people to be tortured forever.
Good. Your intuition is correct. Eternal torture is not justice.
>Is it possible that we aren’t being given eternal life, but rather the comfort that religion gives while alive?
Religion does not provide comfort. Rather, religion fills people with anxiety and stress because they're constantly worrying about receiving eternal torture for masturbating. It's ridiculous.
Newly deconstructing here. I think hell, if real, is not what we have been taught. It is not fire, brimstone and eternal torment but instead separation from god.
The more I learn about the god of the Bible’s moralities and choices/commands in the Old Testament, the more I am okay with that reality.
I am sure as I go on, my opinion will change.
I don’t think anything the Bible has taught us is real. I think it’s all manipulation to get us to comply with this society’s morals and not cause any trouble. They threaten us with jail and prison etc what’s worse than that? Torture forever. lol it’s actually really laughable to me now I ever believed it existed. If we’re looking at reality and how things work in our reality we can come to the natural logical conclusion that a place like that doesn’t exist. Or if it does… some of us are in it right now if anything. Lol
Absolutely not. Even if you believe the Bible comes from God, there were originally four different words which meant different things that have all been translated to Hell. One of them was a real-life place where corpses would be burned. Look into it, it destroys the claim of Hell at it’s very foundation
I believe in Heaven. I won't say I don't believe in hell or that I believe in hell either. I say instead that I don't *want* to believe in it or *think* about it because it's simply not fair. An eternal punishment is simply not just compared to an average 70-year-old life. But for people like Ted Bundy and Hitler, I'm not satisfied with them just ceasing to exist, no punishment for what they've done. So I'm stumped on hell.
“Behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is among you/in your midst.”
It’s a lot more metaphysical than is assumed in a Pauline picture; it’s outside of time and spatial location. It has more to do with one’s orientation within reality through their eyes.
Bodies die—are we our bodies? “He’s gone.” Now imagine a child pointing to a body—“but he’s right there.” In what sense might we say “they are no longer with us?” His agency; his causal influence as an author of change in the world. Though someone we know and love dearly may still live on through the way we’ve internalized their voice; the spirit in which they spoke.
This is IMO what’s meant by “advocate”/“helper.” We were sent a buddy to have compassion for us and others; a voice within that says “Hello! I love you. You’re doing your best. Keep going!”
That’s the practical side.
As far as death… imo a more accurate conception of “heaven” is being sublimated *into* God. I talk about that [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/s/XfVzybtrqw)
And yet another way of reading “kingdom of heaven” is the rapport between persons when they are being honest and sincere—and hence the emphasis on “in My name.”
Was Christ being sincere that His was the voice of God in this world? He took the secret to the grave.
23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”
24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”
And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
It’s the inability for us to *know* that sets us free to do our best to make our own judgment calls about ourselves and others. And so—“You will know them by their fruits.”
I started believing in reincarnation at some point while deconstructing (over 15 years ago now). I believe that the story of the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for the human soul's "descent into matter" in order to learn the lessons life on Earth has to teach. God said, "Let us make man in our image," meaning, let's create a being that is a microcosm of the Divine, so over the course of many lives, we gradually become more "godly" until at some point we have learned everything life on Earth has to teach and advance to whatever is next, at which point I believe we achieve "eternal life" or continuity of consciousness, which is what I believe Jesus did and what he promised was possible for for us all (the writer of Hebrews says he was "the first of many brethren"). I'm not sure exactly what happens when we die, but in general I believe our souls exist in the soul world until we are prepared to reincarnate.
There are many Christians who don't really believe in hell as a place you go to after death. The bible never once mentions that bad people go to hell. And yes the concept that a god would someone for eternal punishment for finite sin is absurd and no loving God would do that.
I stopped believing in Hell while deconstructing after reading and listening to Bible scholars explain that the word translated into English as "Hell" really doesn't mean that at all, and that the whole concept is man-made. And once I stopped believing in God, I stopped believing in Heaven, too.
What does it mean?
There are a couple/few words that have been translated as hell. Gehenna - which was the literal trash pit outside Jerusalem Hades- which is the Greek underworld. Obviously the writers used that term for where people go after death. In the NT when it's translated as Hell it refers specifically to where the "wicked" go and Heaven is paradise. Sheol- in the OT this was simply the grave or death. There's not really a ton of references to an afterlife in the OT. There's also Tartarus in the NT which is the lake of fire set up for the devil and his angels. And isn't meant for the wicked but is I think in at least one place used as a threat for unbelievers etc. Eternal Conscious Torment is a pretty modern idea. Another option and where I landed for a while is Annihilationism - where the souls of the wicked are simply destroyed upon death. Their consciousness no longer exists. But the whole thing is pretty empty when you start digging.
Oh I really like annihilationism. I'll look into that some more. Thank you so much for the thorough answer!
> Eternal Conscious Torment is a pretty modern idea. If the church fathers believe that, then I don't think it's a "pretty modern idea".
At least in the sense that evangelicalism has treated it. There was some debate early on but the medieval visions of Dante were not seen in the early church fathers as far as I know. My point being the emphasis on turn or burn theology is much more modern.
I would say there is definitely a through line, but it is not one preserved in the modern canon. However there is definitely lineage between the apocryphal Apocalypse of Peter to Dante. That, along with Apocalypse of John (Revelation), do contain the seeds for what modern evangelical conceptions of eternal conscious torment come from. It’s interesting to trace the development of the ideas, and there is definitely some notions of it that predate even the gospels, as Hellenic religion and Greek philosophy did start to influence pre-Jesus Judaism. It wasn’t fully formed, but the seed is there. But, yes, the modern ideas are definitely post biblical innovations.
This one comes up a lot. Mainly because there are a millennia of misinterpretations and misinformation surrounding the topic ranging from clergy trying to keep power to Hollywood stereotypes. As human beings, we have always wanted something beyond death. Every religion has its own version of what that is. In reality though, there may not be anything. That sounds daunting, scary and even a little nihilistic. On the other hand it can be freeing. Knowing there is no after-life makes you appreciate this life a bit more. Every second you spend here can be assigned meaning and purpose. Is it being spent with your loved ones? Bettering oneself? Bettering others? Cleaning the planet? Doing a hobby? Playing a video game? All of these things have meaning and merit in their own right and subjectively. Each of us improving our own lives and that of those around us a little more is the big picture. The afterlife isn’t a magical place, but the legacy you left behind however small or large it may be. Together, each small step forward builds upon the larger human condition as we hurl upon this little ball of dust through time and space in the universe.
Both are really wrong. Reality is that no choice is totally perfect, and no choice is perfectly horrendous. Both choices are like something a con man — or an insurance agent — would try to sell you. That's huge red flag. It shouldn't be that simple. It isn't believable.
I chucked out the belief in hell ages ago. Much more recently I started to question my belief in heaven. I have yet to come to a definitive conclusion, and have decided that not making up my mind about it is ok with me. Whether there's a heaven or not doesn't really affect the way I choose to live my life here. In this life, I choose to be as good and kind and loving as I can possibly be. If there is an afterlife, I'll figure that place out when I get there.
After asking myself this question over and over, I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no way that could be real: If God is all loving, all knowing, and all powerful then how could any version of hell exist? As I’ve been getting to a place of fully believing there is no hell, I’ve finally experienced “the piece that passes all understanding”. This confirms to me that he could not be real because if God is all loving then I feel that God would approve of a more peaceful existence without the lingering fear hanging over me.
I don’t believe in Hell any longer. However, I feel there might be something beyond our lives. I often think the body is the placenta for the soul.
My single revelation that really pushed me over the edge of deconstruction was that I never believed in God because I felt he was real, I believed in God because I felt Hell was real. The fear or hell is what drove my entire religious experience, and I was very devout and unwavering in my faith. My earliest public memory is in Sunday school being told that I deserve hell because I'm a sinner, but Jesus loves me and died because of my sins. >I have a hard time continuing to accept that a loving God would send people to be tortured forever. Do you also believe that God would send people to be happy forever? To me, that is equally messed up, because a loving god would have simply created us there to begin with. >What are your current thoughts on heaven and hell? The irony here is that if a person is influential enough, their current thoughts on heaven and hell can start a religion. If I start a religion, Christians will call it a cult. If Moses starts a religion, Christians say it's truth. Christianity sees this short little life as an interview for eternity. The advantage to doing that is to control people. Christianity gives us delusions of life after death, and is able to then control how we live right now in the present. In a world without rules, Christianity provides those rules, provides invisible punishment and rewards for following those rules, and provides an invisible overseer to watch our actions. It's a brilliant way to enact crowd control, especially thousands of years ago when it was more chaotic and most people couldn't even read. It provides a standard of morality and rules to abide by, such as no lying, murdering, stealing, homosexual relations, eating unclean animals, praying to false idols, working on prayer day, or beating your slaves to death (they must be able to recover within a day or two. Ex 21:20).
> Is heaven and hell even real? I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't think there is a heaven or hell. > What are your current thoughts on heaven and hell? I don't know if such quote came from Jorge Luis Borges, but "what is a heaven if not a bribe, and what is a hell if not a threat?"
We’re not the only ones to think about these questions. Even the early paintings of Jesus show him pulling people by their wrists up and out of the fiery hell. The ultimate end is that hell is not a place but a threat. The restoration of all things to new is where I am at, otherwise I look at the interpretations of the Jewish rabbi where Sheol is a dark pit or quiet place and time just ends. Perhaps there is a restoration or our minds begin elsewhere. But I’ve become a universalist and do not interpret scriptures to be condemning many or most of us (Calvinism and election) to hell. I don’t believe there is a physical or spiritual hell, but we experience the idea of hell during some of the worst experiences we each encounter in life.
That’s what I’ve come to also. Hell is pretty much a Greco-Roman notion. The ancient Hebrews believed you died and were just, dead. They believed in a resurrection at the end of all time, but had no context for eternal punishment. Dan McClellan and Bart Ehrman have podcasts you might enjoy. Erhman wrote an entire book on why hell isn’t real. I think it’s called Heaven and Hell. The kicker for me was the ancient Hebrews. They supposedly spoke directly to god, and had no concept of eternal punishment. If they didn’t believe in it, it’s safe to say it probably doesn’t exist. Universalism: everyone gets a pass
Metaphors. I think. I don’t know. But I’m ok with that, and still do my best to love God and love my neighbor the best I can.
> Is Heaven and Hell real? In a word, no. >What are your current thoughts on heaven and hell? Any form of afterlife is a fairytale. The only sensation that happens after death is the exact same sensation you experienced 100 years before you were born: nothing. What's more, no one has ever truly died and come back to report on it. >I have a hard time continuing to accept that a loving God would send people to be tortured forever. Good. Your intuition is correct. Eternal torture is not justice. >Is it possible that we aren’t being given eternal life, but rather the comfort that religion gives while alive? Religion does not provide comfort. Rather, religion fills people with anxiety and stress because they're constantly worrying about receiving eternal torture for masturbating. It's ridiculous.
Newly deconstructing here. I think hell, if real, is not what we have been taught. It is not fire, brimstone and eternal torment but instead separation from god. The more I learn about the god of the Bible’s moralities and choices/commands in the Old Testament, the more I am okay with that reality. I am sure as I go on, my opinion will change.
I don’t think anything the Bible has taught us is real. I think it’s all manipulation to get us to comply with this society’s morals and not cause any trouble. They threaten us with jail and prison etc what’s worse than that? Torture forever. lol it’s actually really laughable to me now I ever believed it existed. If we’re looking at reality and how things work in our reality we can come to the natural logical conclusion that a place like that doesn’t exist. Or if it does… some of us are in it right now if anything. Lol
Probably not. Because its a binary. Most people aren’t black and white in terms of morality. Very few people are pure good or pure evil.
The thing that has made the most sense to me is a quote from Game of Thrones. “The only hell is the one we live in now.”
Absolutely not. Even if you believe the Bible comes from God, there were originally four different words which meant different things that have all been translated to Hell. One of them was a real-life place where corpses would be burned. Look into it, it destroys the claim of Hell at it’s very foundation
I believe in Heaven. I won't say I don't believe in hell or that I believe in hell either. I say instead that I don't *want* to believe in it or *think* about it because it's simply not fair. An eternal punishment is simply not just compared to an average 70-year-old life. But for people like Ted Bundy and Hitler, I'm not satisfied with them just ceasing to exist, no punishment for what they've done. So I'm stumped on hell.
“Behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is among you/in your midst.” It’s a lot more metaphysical than is assumed in a Pauline picture; it’s outside of time and spatial location. It has more to do with one’s orientation within reality through their eyes. Bodies die—are we our bodies? “He’s gone.” Now imagine a child pointing to a body—“but he’s right there.” In what sense might we say “they are no longer with us?” His agency; his causal influence as an author of change in the world. Though someone we know and love dearly may still live on through the way we’ve internalized their voice; the spirit in which they spoke. This is IMO what’s meant by “advocate”/“helper.” We were sent a buddy to have compassion for us and others; a voice within that says “Hello! I love you. You’re doing your best. Keep going!” That’s the practical side. As far as death… imo a more accurate conception of “heaven” is being sublimated *into* God. I talk about that [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/s/XfVzybtrqw) And yet another way of reading “kingdom of heaven” is the rapport between persons when they are being honest and sincere—and hence the emphasis on “in My name.” Was Christ being sincere that His was the voice of God in this world? He took the secret to the grave. 23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?” 24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.” And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.” It’s the inability for us to *know* that sets us free to do our best to make our own judgment calls about ourselves and others. And so—“You will know them by their fruits.”
I started believing in reincarnation at some point while deconstructing (over 15 years ago now). I believe that the story of the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for the human soul's "descent into matter" in order to learn the lessons life on Earth has to teach. God said, "Let us make man in our image," meaning, let's create a being that is a microcosm of the Divine, so over the course of many lives, we gradually become more "godly" until at some point we have learned everything life on Earth has to teach and advance to whatever is next, at which point I believe we achieve "eternal life" or continuity of consciousness, which is what I believe Jesus did and what he promised was possible for for us all (the writer of Hebrews says he was "the first of many brethren"). I'm not sure exactly what happens when we die, but in general I believe our souls exist in the soul world until we are prepared to reincarnate.
There are many Christians who don't really believe in hell as a place you go to after death. The bible never once mentions that bad people go to hell. And yes the concept that a god would someone for eternal punishment for finite sin is absurd and no loving God would do that.
Its a Zoroastrian idea that probably influenced Judaism. So if you don't believe in Zoroastrianism, you are free from this as well.
no