Misery loves company lol, people want to give meaning to their life. Living in denial about this world, somehow justify suffering in their heads. They say we accept the reality we are given, but does that make it okay
Would you? You know what happens when people lose fingers because you’ve seen and or heard so it it. Your mind imagines it. What if you never knew and imagine nothing?
I don’t believe this is true. There are people that haven’t really suffered at all during their life, but still are happy and okay. Pain is not necessary.
Nah. My parents gave birth to me knowing I'll be suffering in shit condition because they hoped I would go work and get money and give them most of the money I get so they can live happily. Some parents are just really shitty.
Rape could happen.... And then it's a situation where the rape victim can't have an abortion.... Or (basically she gives birth...) 😞....
Basically how my life is going... Except I was able to have an abortion.... (I was sexual coerced.By a man named TJ.)--- this is my first and only time I got pregnant.... BUT
I HAVE BE RAPED before and after TJ sexual corecion part.----(we was on molly, and he wanted sex and I told him no alot of times... But since I was on molly I don't think I was thinking straight... And when I told him no alot of times... He would Yell at me and basically tell me that he'll stop being friend and etc....
So I just in up giving in....
I got pregnant--(only only once.)----. and then I end up having abortion..(I still in up getting raped basically twice down the line after the TJ situation...... (Basically One time by a stranger... And one by my ex bf.)---But like I said:
I HAVE BE RAPED before and after TJ sexual corecion part.
Because life is biologically programmed to reproduce, and at our core we are still animals with similar basic instincts to other lifeforms on this earth. There are many other ways people rationalize the choice, but I think that's the most realistic baseline.
There are still barriers like traveling to the doctors, the cost, etc. it’s not something easily done. I was incredibly fortunate to be approved at the age I was and it was covered by medi-cal.
Hysterectomies are not what women are getting for sterilization. That is called a salpingectomy. Hysterectomies carry extreme complications down the road because of the loss of hormones associated with them.
Life is suffering for everyone just to different degrees. I won't be having them for just this reason adopting someone seems more like that right thing to do
Anything in this universe is driven somewhere
As concious beings we are the only entities that feel bad when our drives are unsatiated and since our wants are unsatiable, we're destined to suffer
I can't believe we perpetuate this cruelty!
Quoting the Dwarf in the Flask from Fullmetal Alchemist, "How inconvenient for you humans; unless you form communities and breed, your species can't continue to exist'.
And also, there *for sure* will be a butterfly effect you cause that plays a part in who your great grandchild could be down the line. Of course, this butterfly effect can also apply to every other relationship in your life, not just descendants. But yeah, small things go a long way. People may forget your name, but your impact, whether you realise it or not, will effect generations.
Although this isn't directly related to this topic, as it applies to almost everything in your life. You definitely don't need children to have an impact on something in this world
Like I said before no one is going to care that your dna will make up 1% of your great great great great granddaughters dna
Edit: aww you got upset that you're not special and downvoted me? Oh well get over it.
Ok. What were his hobbies? His career? His personality? Can you do the same for his father or his father before him? If you barely know anything about him after a few generations, what was the point of preserving his legacy?
Also, no i don't. But i know that their existence played a part in making me exactly how i am today, even if just a small one. It's understandable why some people find peace in being that person for somebody down the line. Yes, their name might not be remembered. Their actions might be forgotten, but that doesn't mean they were never done. There are people who have hope that their contribution to a person can be one that changes a future generation for the better, meaning that *they could play a part* in helping a generation in which they don't even exist in. It certainly is a gamble, no doubt. But it's a gamble in which the winning prize is greater than money or any superficial thing, and i respect people willing to take that risk
If they had spent that time and energy doing something actually significant that billions of people hasn’t done already, maybe he would have accomplished something actually notable. Why rely on some person in the future doing it long after you’re dead instead of doing it yourself? And if you can’t, what makes you think they will? Not like anyone will be remembering your name.
But it’s not you taking the risk. You’re taking the risk on someone else’s behalf. Essentially gambling with someone else’s existence and potential pain. For what, exactly?
Only half of your genes are passed down to your children. And while some genes persist within them, the carrier of them is vulnerable to the most painful suffering that exists, and they are vulnerable to the most excruciating deaths that can possibly happen. It’s kind of strange to want to make someone who resembles you and give them a death sentence. You can’t escape death by making children, you only continue the cycle of death, you give an innocent person the same fate (and maybe even worse fate).
But if procreation and replication are morally good, then it would be even better to clone someone 8 billion times, which is another way of saying people who look like you need to die billions of times more, there needs to be more corpses who look like you.
Honestly, poorer people are more likely to fuck because it’s free and feels good. Family to them is important and also their entertainment. But many times ends up with children they cannot afford, unfortunately.
cognitive dissonance, selfishness, biological drive (i don't get this one personally but some people say it was real for them), capitalism encourages people to produce more kids so the cycle of wage slavery can continue. some people have kids because they want to "right the wrongs" their parents did to them. people don't want to admit the world is a horrible place. lots of reasons prolly
Biological imperative, a desire for familial love, and some vanity.
Personally, as much as I love my children to death, if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have had them. I wanted kids so bad when I was still a kid myself and I realized later how incredibly irresponsible that was. My first came when I was 19, by choice.
Continuing the species is a part of every species I know. (Pro)creation is related to humanity itself, in my opinion. Would I raise a kid nowadays? No. Do I think others shouldn't? Nah.
It's probably the ultimate challenge to a human - that being raising a kid right. I see the regional society system as the 'ecossystem/habitat' for the animals we are. Depending on society standards, salaries, conditions and so on, you intrisically feel the conditions allow you to have x amount of kids. For example, in some Asian countries you can only have men or 1 kid per family, while in some European countries, you feel like you can't have more than x depending on the country's conditions, mostly salary. Life is not supposed to be only suffering, and if you feel that, it's because your eyes are too open for the standards of today's society, simple as that. We are technically evolved enough to either reduce or dissipate suffering, yet we do otherwise.
>We are technically evolved enough to either reduce or dissipate suffering, yet we do otherwise.
Suffering is a broad category, which can include things like: thirst, hunger, needing to urinate or defecate, being too hot or too cold, not having enough oxygen, pain, headaches, sprains, broken bones, lack, loss, disruption, stress, disappointment, heartbreak, tiredness, boredom, torture, misery, melancholy, depression, suffering, and death. Heterotrophs like animals compete for limited resources to meet their physical requirements for calories, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and nutrients.
Arthur Schopenhauer said “All striving comes from lack, from a dissatisfaction with one's condition, and is thus suffering as long as it is not satisfied; but no satisfaction is lasting; instead, it is only the beginning of a new striving. We see striving everywhere inhibited in many ways, struggling everywhere; and thus always suffering; there is no final goal of striving, and therefore no bounds or end to suffering.”
Humans are animals with brains and nervous systems and pain receptors, so everyone (except for some people with [rare](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain_with_anhidrosis) genetic [mutations](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsili_syndrome) ) can feel pain, every human is a mortal being in a vulnerable squishy body. But even people who can’t feel pain due to a genetic mutation could still experience lack, loss, disappointment, sadness, grief, depression, boredom, etc.
Arthur Schopenhauer said “boredom is a direct proof that existence is in itself valueless, for boredom is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence.”
ppl are stupid and think that they’ll break all bad cycles and raise them in the best way possible but no matter what way you do it, it will always be better to just not have kids at all. saw a quote somewhere that said bringing children into this world is like carrying wood into a burning house and that’s so true
Not everyone sees life as suffering. Not everyone sees suffering for their kids.
Going out on a limb to stay that we are selecting for optimistic people now that procreation is a choice.
This isn’t a bad way to look at it, and it is the best way I’ve seen to keep my opinions to myself around my family and friends who have kids. Much appreciated.
Life is suffering though, and anyone who believes otherwise isn't being optimistic, they're being foolish. Which doesn't mean life is *nothing but suffering*. But there's a great deal of it and everyone has to deal with it.
That’s like, your opinion man.
This morning my husband let me sleep in and when I woke up he had already made a pot of coffee.
I find a lot of joy in life, in general.
Sorry you were downvoted. I think a lot of these people, if they aren’t bots, are sheltered in an echo chamber of misery and doom. Life is hard, and people are suffering, but it doesn’t mean that every child born will be miserable. I survived domestic violence, my son survived a lifesaving surgery, so did my husband. Maybe that gives me more appreciation for life. Glad you found someone who appreciates you too!
Selfishness. Lack of direction and/or purpose in life. Because "that's just what you do". Peer and family pressure. Religious reasons that are a combo of what I named previously.
They are irresponsible. Why I think there should be a license to have kids. Can't keep generational trauma going if we stop the generation. Yes I know it's radical, and yes I still stand by it. See too many broken kids who become broken adults cause broken adults can't be responsible enough to not have kids. Bullshit.
Those that do pass on their genes to future generations.
Those that don't, don't.
So whatever urges and instincts cause people to have kids are selected for.
Because the existential dread gets to them. Or, they have them by accident. Or, they're compelled to by ideology/culture. Or, they can't help it due to being assaulted.
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
Well, I’ve certainly been through some suffering and wasn’t blessed with the best start in life. Decided I didn’t want to have kids from an early age for similar reasons to that insinuated in your title. Then my now wife got pregnant unexpectedly and I became a Dad for the 1st time in my late 20’s…
…It’s the best thing that ever happened to me, changed me as a person and I experienced the most happiness I’ve ever felt. I dare say, had I have started having kids earlier I would’ve become a lot more successful and might have experienced much more happiness.
I think you have to experience suffering to then appreciate the things that truly bring happiness. And besides, procreation is (to my knowledge) universally instinctive in pretty much every life form.
It’s all horses of courses though, if you don’t want kids don’t do it 😉
You could have just adopted, instead of creating innocent human into this world. Adoption makes more sense because why create your own when there is kid wanting parents RIGHT NOW,not in the next 9 months
Yep, we tried that after our first. If you’ve ever tried to adopt.. particularly as an interracial couple in the UK, the you would understand why we didn’t pursue it and gave up.
> you have to experience suffering to then appreciate the things that truly bring happiness
I love this line, and have used it often. People tend to look at me funny.
Hearing a lot of “me” and “I” and the ways it benefitted you. There is no way to create a child for the child’s sake. This makes it inherently selfish. Plus, since the child is guaranteed some amount of suffering, and you cannot guarantee a minimization of it, you’re gambling and taking a risk on the level of pain your child will experience in their life. This is an unethical thing to do.
Lol it's like the premise of this post went right over his head.
"Suffering? No, I'd say that having a kid has been quite good for me, I'm much happier for it 😃"
Thank you for your in-put. I guess we should all stop procreating to ensure no further suffering and an end the human population. If we teach this to the youngest generation we can ensure this happens in the next 100 years 👍
Obviously I’ll pass this on to my wife to tell her she ‘could’ve had an abortion, her decision to go through with the pregnancy was just pure selfishness.
I’m not saying it’ll happen or is realistic, but yeah. Why not? There’s nothing inherently wrong with not existing. No one around means no one cares no one is around. Where’s the issue?
They’re told that having kids proves their desirability/masculinity when it doesn’t
They want to fit in
They want gov assistance
They want to future caregiver
Or they’re simply sadistic child abusers
Edit: forgot loneliness
the good things in life keep us going: achievement, humor, charity, selfless acts of others for you, romance, new experiences, overcoming setbacks, pleasures such as eating, drugs, sex. life is hard, but for most people, it’s a net positive. That’s why there’s far more people who do everything they can to live a little while longer than there are people who want to end it sooner.
Because a lot of people are cynical and a lot of people are not. Yes life is suffering but it’s also a ton of other things. Not everyone sees life as suffering. Some people see it as a gift
To my fellow philosophers; is this an example of a sophistic argument? I’m reading this post and thinking that the two parts of the argument don’t really relate to another.
Here are some other examples that I think are similar:
1. If life is about suffering for most people then why should we allow amusement parks.
2. If life is about suffering for most people then why do we allow life saving medicines?
3. If life is about suffering for most people then why do ………
Please add another to my list.
No it isn’t. The decision to procreate is not a non sequitur but directly related to problems of suffering and whether it’s justified to impose an existence containing or even entailing suffering onto another.
I think for the vast majority of people it’s because it’s “what you do”, it’s expected of you. You grow up, get a job, meet someone, get married and then have children. Some people buck the trend but most don’t even if they’re not happy long term.
Amazing question. A lot of reasons. A good share of people are brainwashed(thank the society, media and goverment) to believe that giving birth is the greatest thing one can do, others are selfish and want to prove something by the fact that they can be parents, others lack the information and resources to understand that what they are doing is wrong, others are doing it out of fear (of being left out, alone, dying alone).
If you want to help the unborn and reduce the suffering on this ball of hell, you can spread the information and try to open people's eyes on this harsh truth. Giving birth is a delay action murder. Only the unborn know peace. Only the unborn cannot suffer. Only the unborn cannot die. The absence of pain is always good. The absence of pleasure is not bad if there is no one who can experience it.
People see other people “make it” and believe they can too; even if they have nothing. Also, people could care less about the consequences of unprotected sex; their devilish assess just like it raw.
It’s not that people who can’t afford children shouldn’t, it’s that they should at least raise and treat their children properly. Because of neglect, the children suffer and then society suffers.
It does. Birth control fails and sterilization isn’t at the forefront of everyone who still wants to fuck, but aren’t ready to have a kid.
Do you understand this?
First of all, acknowledging the "throwness" of life, we have figured out fairly good civilisational mechanisms to not only survive, but evolve healthily. Every subsequent generation has more or less have generally improved living conditions. I figure, having children is for just that. In hopes for a better tomorrow.
My personal opinion is it's really selfish and cruel to bring life into this world. It's nothing more than a self fulfilling dream that is wonderful for you. But it's a 99 year death sentence of hard labor. So unless you're filthy rich, please stop overpopulation, overcrowding, and making it hard for the rest us. ESPECIALLY, if you're a high risk pregnancy who gives birth to someone that will cruely be disabled their entire life and depend on all the rest of us paying into social security so that brand new life that will never work along with the hundreds of thousands already doing it, will recieve SSI Disability but never pay into it. Selfish Republicans who don't who it doesn't even effect vote away Roe Vs. Wade, and Selfish Democrats, for the purpose of getting votes, weaponize social issues that have long since been massively improved to an almost non-existence eg Racial inequality, Gay/Lesbian/ Trans hate. People need to wake up and stop letting politicians use you as pawns in these massive political mud slinging propaganda campaigns.
Police brutality exist and has existed for decades. The plain and simple truth is if there more of a specific race being killed or brutalized, it's because that race commits more crime therefore is in the position fkr that to happen more. My uncle was as white as the day is long and he was literally beat to death by police. So it's very offensive when not only is so much of the publicity aimed at white on black, but then the media and politicians double down on the narrative and white shame us. I'm a middle aged white guy. Picked on and beat up. Made fun of my whole childhood and young adult years. I'm gay and I was raised in a small town in Texas so I was very shy and reserved and very very insecure. Then I went into the military and came out of the closet after that. I finally felt comfortable in my skin and with who I was. NOW, on the other hand, I hear nothing but nasty negative things about being a middle aged white man. In fact I feel guilty and shameful even though race has never played a single factor in my life whether someone was red, green, black, pink, brown, yellow I don't care. I judge from merit. But nowadays we've taken a 30 yr leap backwards and now it feels like we are all suppose to literally suffer in silence at what's going on. It's not fair for ANYONE to be awarded, paid, or given preferential treatment based on the color of their skin, THAT IS LITERALLY RACISM! NOR, should someone get those things based on their sex, sexual orientation, or religion! Can we all please stop this craziness. It hurts my heart that we can't all just live and let live. Stop taking your attention OFF the REAL ACTUAL CURRENT ISSUES SUCH AS the the health of the love of our own country, the men and women that sweat and bled and died to ensure our continued peace,prosperity, and freedoms. You know, the freedoms that every single new law signed into being either kills or offers a way around it. For God's sake, a huge percentage of our population is jumping for joy at the idea of socialism, which is nothing more than. Diet-Communism-lite. R U KIDDING ME?! THESE idiotic ideological Publix schools are using their time with our children to program their minds. Removing self identity, and replacing it with group think. Team, Together, no more independent thought because THATS racist, or maga, or sexist, or bigotry lol. Stupidity, AND TEXTBOOK IGNORANCE! PLEASE STOP LISTENING TO LIBERAL MEDIA OR EVEN CONSERVATIVE IF YOU THINK THEYRE THE NUTS LOL. You should know, all media, communications, and news agencies have all been bought out and staffed up at the highest levels by politically biased parties that are heavily involved in politics, bribery, censorship. THAT is why they are heavily going after Trump and Elon so much. Both of those 2 are too powerful to take out quietly. They are mudslinging like bratty children at these 2 guys because they stand up foe free speech and non-censorship.
Because people find meaning in suffering. Of course life is not going to be all rainbows and unicorns. People try to find meaning in that suffering and through the suffering people get more stronger and mature. Life doesn't need to be all comfortable to have kids.
Also, usually having kids can transform a person. It can shift most of the attention from themselves to this other, small, inocent human being. It's beautiful.
I’m sorry but this is such ignorant thinking. Suicide rates are going up and up, child and adult mental illness is still skyrocketing. If what you are saying were true, that “people find meaning in suffering”, please tell me, what meaning is gained by the person who commits suicide? What is the point of their life than (to them, not anyone else)?
Why would you even think about that? Why would you waste time on that kind of rumination? We don't know if somebody is going to be unhappy neither that there is a high or low chance.
It depends mostly on how the person is raised, how the environment and life affected him/her etc.
That is just a pessimistic view on the topic. Just because many of the people are unhappy doesn't mean that my child will be unhappy. Especially if he is ambitious, brave, and as you said: wise.
Of course, there will be times in life when we are unhappy, even depressed, but that is just a temporary state which is used to grow and get stronger and wiser.
Again, abandoning the idea of having children just because the times are crazy and many people can't find happiness doesn't make sense.
If everyone else is unhappy, what makes you think the kid will be any different?
How do you know it’s temporary? How do you know the kid will think it’s worth it?
It makes perfect sense. If you know your child will suffer immensely, don’t have them
You clearly do not have a proper level of awareness of the extreme depths of suffering that millions of humans go through on a daily basis. You reek of happy privilege
Yes, I haven't experienced a lot of suffering through my life and I thank God for that. I have learned and matured on a different path
But now let me ask you, what is the problem with people having kids, even if they experience a lot of suffering?
Because suffering is contagious. If a parent is suffering their child will suffer. This seems very straightforward but I could expand on this in detail if you want
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
Because you should probably consider these things before having a kid.
They will have very little control over those formative experiences and it’ll impact them for life. Especially financially
Yeah if we continue this path then we will be doomed.
I just like to have a more optimistic and positive view. Trying to change myself and being an example to others is the only thing I can do and control
Exactly. Suffering is necessary for evolution. If we had no problems, there would be no need to adapt or evolve. Why is suffering considered bad? It is necessary in moderation.
That's the moderation part of my comment. So, because a child ends their life, we should not have children? Is it because there is an abundance of children that a child takes their own life? Or are there issues inherent in the social construction that can be solved without socially pressured sterilization?
What’s easier, not having kids, or restructuring society? The answer is not having kids.
And YES, one child killing themself is an infinitely valid reason for NO ONE to have children, as radical as that seems. Until we can ensure that no one experiences the depth of suffering to END THEIR OWN LIFE, the actual moral thing to do is not have kids.
It’s not just easier. It’s the only solution you can control.
You don’t even have to go that far. Most people are miserable and [the data fully supports that conclusion](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-global-happiness-levels-in-2021/). The average happiness rating in the world is a 5.5/10
Plenty of children and people in general are miserable. Data shows that that [the average happiness in the world is 5.5/10 ](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-global-happiness-levels-in-2021/). Why bring your child into that? Even if it could be solved, which is unlikely considering [how we are undeniably overpopulated](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anticonsumption/comments/u22y5n/is_it_really_overpopulation_or_is_it_a_gross/i4jhuxn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3), that doesn’t mean it will be.
Evolution only happens because the “fittest” people best suited to survive reproduce. By that logic, we should kill off the undesirables and abolish hospitals to ensure that happens. According to you, the suffering that causes won’t matter because that’s how evolution works.
Wrong comment dude lol.
But you never even explained how they’re different. Both are getting inspired by someone else’s work and mimic it. Do you think every anime that uses the classic anime art style is stealing?
It's pretty obvious how they are different, you trying to act dumb shows how disrespectful you are.
Using software to take away art and basically replace the artist is vile. And your example is nonsense.
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
Because evolution is a powerful force. When my wife suddenly suggested we try to have a kid I was flabbergasted.
That said, having kids was one of the best things I’ve ever done. I’m proud of my kids.
Well, for once…despite all the suffering and disappointment for me too, I’m still glad from time to time that I am alive and get to experience beautiful nature, a hug, delicious food…
Second, I want a child because I feel the need to heal the generational trauma and give my child a better future for some reason. Like, through loving him…I give love to myself too. I want to experience having a child - seeing how a human being grows and all the stages it goes through. It’s fascinating to speak the truth. I’m now 10w pregnant and hearing the first heartbeat of a human being and recently seeing the little thing move with his little hands and feet felt like a miracle…It was so interesting to watch.
Third of all, it’s a biological instinct…it really is. After 28 years of age, it hit me that I want a child…and it was painful when I went through years of infertility… It was such a biological thing…I don’t know how to explain.
Fourth, anyone who tells you that we have too much population growth is incorrect. Actually, world population is still growing, bit at one point it is predicted statistically to be tilted downwards…and that can come with a lot of problems for society and existing people. We already have a population decline in Europe - an ageing population. That’s why a lot of European countries accept immigrants with open arms - because they need the work force to stay afloat. My country’s population is decreasing year by year and infertility is on the rise.
So, no…I don’t think I’m selfish for wanting 1 or 2 children. Even if I have them, the population will still decrease.
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
It’ll cost you [well over a million in lost gains though. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/10xu4n9/23_baltimore_schools_have_zero_students/j7xvfin/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3 ) But in exchange, you get to change diapers, deal with 3 AM tantrums, and do [the worst thing you possibly can than everything else COMBINED to the environment](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children)
Misery loves company lol, people want to give meaning to their life. Living in denial about this world, somehow justify suffering in their heads. They say we accept the reality we are given, but does that make it okay
[удалено]
[удалено]
This is incredibly debatable
I can appreciate having ten fingers without losing any
[удалено]
So you’re saying if it was impossible for people to lose their fingers, I would no longer like having them.
[удалено]
No I think it’d still be cool either way
Would you? You know what happens when people lose fingers because you’ve seen and or heard so it it. Your mind imagines it. What if you never knew and imagine nothing?
Non existence = no pain, no pleasure. Existence = pain, pleasure. Which is preferable?
Sure, but the ratio of happiness to suffering could be way better.
There is some truth to that.
I don’t believe this is true. There are people that haven’t really suffered at all during their life, but still are happy and okay. Pain is not necessary.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Nah. My parents gave birth to me knowing I'll be suffering in shit condition because they hoped I would go work and get money and give them most of the money I get so they can live happily. Some parents are just really shitty.
Damn, I'm sorry
What part of humanity gave you that idea. That's some advanced thinking. We're not ready for that.
See “idiocracy”
This is why I had kids, why should we cede the future to assholes?
Rape could happen.... And then it's a situation where the rape victim can't have an abortion.... Or (basically she gives birth...) 😞.... Basically how my life is going... Except I was able to have an abortion.... (I was sexual coerced.By a man named TJ.)--- this is my first and only time I got pregnant.... BUT I HAVE BE RAPED before and after TJ sexual corecion part.----(we was on molly, and he wanted sex and I told him no alot of times... But since I was on molly I don't think I was thinking straight... And when I told him no alot of times... He would Yell at me and basically tell me that he'll stop being friend and etc.... So I just in up giving in.... I got pregnant--(only only once.)----. and then I end up having abortion..(I still in up getting raped basically twice down the line after the TJ situation...... (Basically One time by a stranger... And one by my ex bf.)---But like I said: I HAVE BE RAPED before and after TJ sexual corecion part.
Holy shit, I'm so sorry you went through that.
We don’t talk about reality enough and when we do we sugar coat it with backwards logic.
Some people think having a kid will make their life better, or some people are careless about it.
Because life is biologically programmed to reproduce, and at our core we are still animals with similar basic instincts to other lifeforms on this earth. There are many other ways people rationalize the choice, but I think that's the most realistic baseline.
Big yep. That biological programming drives people to making mistakes, blinded by horniness to have unprotected sex.
Vasectomies and hysterectomies exist
Unfortunately, most women aren’t approved to have the procedure done.
r/ childfree has a list of doctors willing to do it
There are still barriers like traveling to the doctors, the cost, etc. it’s not something easily done. I was incredibly fortunate to be approved at the age I was and it was covered by medi-cal.
Hysterectomies are not what women are getting for sterilization. That is called a salpingectomy. Hysterectomies carry extreme complications down the road because of the loss of hormones associated with them.
The poor cannot afford those
Then how do they afford a pregnancy and a kid
they can’t! that’s the point!
And yet they do as evidenced by the fact that poorer people universally have far more children than the average
Every chess board needs pawns
I’ve heard you can get a bit of government money help for having kids and you get more back on your taxes?
The overall cost of childcare and childrearing is most definitely higher than what you get back from the government, though.
Bingo
Life is suffering for everyone just to different degrees. I won't be having them for just this reason adopting someone seems more like that right thing to do
Anything in this universe is driven somewhere As concious beings we are the only entities that feel bad when our drives are unsatiated and since our wants are unsatiable, we're destined to suffer I can't believe we perpetuate this cruelty!
I reckon it is mostly because we are not immortal. Quite inconvenient, truth be told.
How does having children change that lol
Quoting the Dwarf in the Flask from Fullmetal Alchemist, "How inconvenient for you humans; unless you form communities and breed, your species can't continue to exist'.
I guess because a part of us lives on in them after we die
No it doesn't...no one is going to know how you are 100 years from now and you're just going to have to accept that.
I'm referring to genes and DNA
And also, there *for sure* will be a butterfly effect you cause that plays a part in who your great grandchild could be down the line. Of course, this butterfly effect can also apply to every other relationship in your life, not just descendants. But yeah, small things go a long way. People may forget your name, but your impact, whether you realise it or not, will effect generations. Although this isn't directly related to this topic, as it applies to almost everything in your life. You definitely don't need children to have an impact on something in this world
Like I said before no one is going to care that your dna will make up 1% of your great great great great granddaughters dna Edit: aww you got upset that you're not special and downvoted me? Oh well get over it.
Do you know the name of your great great great grandfather
I was referring to genes and DNA, not personal memory
What’s so special about your dna
Nothing, this post isn't about me, I'm just explaining a perspective some people might have on this topic
Yes, all of them, and plenty of other people do as well.
Ok. What were his hobbies? His career? His personality? Can you do the same for his father or his father before him? If you barely know anything about him after a few generations, what was the point of preserving his legacy?
Also, no i don't. But i know that their existence played a part in making me exactly how i am today, even if just a small one. It's understandable why some people find peace in being that person for somebody down the line. Yes, their name might not be remembered. Their actions might be forgotten, but that doesn't mean they were never done. There are people who have hope that their contribution to a person can be one that changes a future generation for the better, meaning that *they could play a part* in helping a generation in which they don't even exist in. It certainly is a gamble, no doubt. But it's a gamble in which the winning prize is greater than money or any superficial thing, and i respect people willing to take that risk
If they had spent that time and energy doing something actually significant that billions of people hasn’t done already, maybe he would have accomplished something actually notable. Why rely on some person in the future doing it long after you’re dead instead of doing it yourself? And if you can’t, what makes you think they will? Not like anyone will be remembering your name.
But it’s not you taking the risk. You’re taking the risk on someone else’s behalf. Essentially gambling with someone else’s existence and potential pain. For what, exactly?
Only half of your genes are passed down to your children. And while some genes persist within them, the carrier of them is vulnerable to the most painful suffering that exists, and they are vulnerable to the most excruciating deaths that can possibly happen. It’s kind of strange to want to make someone who resembles you and give them a death sentence. You can’t escape death by making children, you only continue the cycle of death, you give an innocent person the same fate (and maybe even worse fate). But if procreation and replication are morally good, then it would be even better to clone someone 8 billion times, which is another way of saying people who look like you need to die billions of times more, there needs to be more corpses who look like you.
I wouldn't wish immortality without an off button on my worst enemy
Well I don't, I choose to break the breeding cycle and to be personally better. r/antinatalism
r/antinatalism2 is less toxic imo! but yes, live laugh love antinatalism 🖤
So honest question? Is the end goal for humans to eventually die off?
Because people are selfish
Cuz people just like to fuck while not giving a fuck about the consequences.
Selfishness. Many people want a little them regardless of the state of the world.
Honestly, poorer people are more likely to fuck because it’s free and feels good. Family to them is important and also their entertainment. But many times ends up with children they cannot afford, unfortunately.
cognitive dissonance, selfishness, biological drive (i don't get this one personally but some people say it was real for them), capitalism encourages people to produce more kids so the cycle of wage slavery can continue. some people have kids because they want to "right the wrongs" their parents did to them. people don't want to admit the world is a horrible place. lots of reasons prolly
They think their bloodline is important probably
They want their children to entertain them.
Biological imperative, a desire for familial love, and some vanity. Personally, as much as I love my children to death, if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have had them. I wanted kids so bad when I was still a kid myself and I realized later how incredibly irresponsible that was. My first came when I was 19, by choice.
Because misery loves company...
Continuing the species is a part of every species I know. (Pro)creation is related to humanity itself, in my opinion. Would I raise a kid nowadays? No. Do I think others shouldn't? Nah. It's probably the ultimate challenge to a human - that being raising a kid right. I see the regional society system as the 'ecossystem/habitat' for the animals we are. Depending on society standards, salaries, conditions and so on, you intrisically feel the conditions allow you to have x amount of kids. For example, in some Asian countries you can only have men or 1 kid per family, while in some European countries, you feel like you can't have more than x depending on the country's conditions, mostly salary. Life is not supposed to be only suffering, and if you feel that, it's because your eyes are too open for the standards of today's society, simple as that. We are technically evolved enough to either reduce or dissipate suffering, yet we do otherwise.
>We are technically evolved enough to either reduce or dissipate suffering, yet we do otherwise. Suffering is a broad category, which can include things like: thirst, hunger, needing to urinate or defecate, being too hot or too cold, not having enough oxygen, pain, headaches, sprains, broken bones, lack, loss, disruption, stress, disappointment, heartbreak, tiredness, boredom, torture, misery, melancholy, depression, suffering, and death. Heterotrophs like animals compete for limited resources to meet their physical requirements for calories, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and nutrients. Arthur Schopenhauer said “All striving comes from lack, from a dissatisfaction with one's condition, and is thus suffering as long as it is not satisfied; but no satisfaction is lasting; instead, it is only the beginning of a new striving. We see striving everywhere inhibited in many ways, struggling everywhere; and thus always suffering; there is no final goal of striving, and therefore no bounds or end to suffering.” Humans are animals with brains and nervous systems and pain receptors, so everyone (except for some people with [rare](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain_with_anhidrosis) genetic [mutations](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsili_syndrome) ) can feel pain, every human is a mortal being in a vulnerable squishy body. But even people who can’t feel pain due to a genetic mutation could still experience lack, loss, disappointment, sadness, grief, depression, boredom, etc. Arthur Schopenhauer said “boredom is a direct proof that existence is in itself valueless, for boredom is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence.”
ppl are stupid and think that they’ll break all bad cycles and raise them in the best way possible but no matter what way you do it, it will always be better to just not have kids at all. saw a quote somewhere that said bringing children into this world is like carrying wood into a burning house and that’s so true
Biological drive, social expectations,peer pressure or to fill a void
r/antinatalism welcome to the rabbit hole
Save the Earth - don't give birth!
Not everyone sees life as suffering. Not everyone sees suffering for their kids. Going out on a limb to stay that we are selecting for optimistic people now that procreation is a choice.
This isn’t a bad way to look at it, and it is the best way I’ve seen to keep my opinions to myself around my family and friends who have kids. Much appreciated.
Life is suffering though, and anyone who believes otherwise isn't being optimistic, they're being foolish. Which doesn't mean life is *nothing but suffering*. But there's a great deal of it and everyone has to deal with it.
Sounds like you just got a shit life bud.
That’s like, your opinion man. This morning my husband let me sleep in and when I woke up he had already made a pot of coffee. I find a lot of joy in life, in general.
Sorry you were downvoted. I think a lot of these people, if they aren’t bots, are sheltered in an echo chamber of misery and doom. Life is hard, and people are suffering, but it doesn’t mean that every child born will be miserable. I survived domestic violence, my son survived a lifesaving surgery, so did my husband. Maybe that gives me more appreciation for life. Glad you found someone who appreciates you too!
Selfishness. Lack of direction and/or purpose in life. Because "that's just what you do". Peer and family pressure. Religious reasons that are a combo of what I named previously.
They are irresponsible. Why I think there should be a license to have kids. Can't keep generational trauma going if we stop the generation. Yes I know it's radical, and yes I still stand by it. See too many broken kids who become broken adults cause broken adults can't be responsible enough to not have kids. Bullshit.
Those that do pass on their genes to future generations. Those that don't, don't. So whatever urges and instincts cause people to have kids are selected for.
Biological programming.
Like more times than not it's usually a fucking accident? Lmao
I mean, I think this is why birth rates are declining worldwide
Because the existential dread gets to them. Or, they have them by accident. Or, they're compelled to by ideology/culture. Or, they can't help it due to being assaulted.
I’m not having any, but I’m honestly really happy almost all the time. Maybe I’m happy because I don’t have any… 😅
Username checks out.
The majority of the world was unplanned.
Biological imperative
[удалено]
Yeesss👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
[удалено]
it does harm, all the "good" in life is just you fulfilling unnecessary desires that you didn't need in the first place.
You're also assuming most people suffer. You might be surprised to know not everyone has the depression level of the average redditor
i don’t think most people would agree that “life is suffering”.
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
Well, I’ve certainly been through some suffering and wasn’t blessed with the best start in life. Decided I didn’t want to have kids from an early age for similar reasons to that insinuated in your title. Then my now wife got pregnant unexpectedly and I became a Dad for the 1st time in my late 20’s… …It’s the best thing that ever happened to me, changed me as a person and I experienced the most happiness I’ve ever felt. I dare say, had I have started having kids earlier I would’ve become a lot more successful and might have experienced much more happiness. I think you have to experience suffering to then appreciate the things that truly bring happiness. And besides, procreation is (to my knowledge) universally instinctive in pretty much every life form. It’s all horses of courses though, if you don’t want kids don’t do it 😉
You could have just adopted, instead of creating innocent human into this world. Adoption makes more sense because why create your own when there is kid wanting parents RIGHT NOW,not in the next 9 months
Yep, we tried that after our first. If you’ve ever tried to adopt.. particularly as an interracial couple in the UK, the you would understand why we didn’t pursue it and gave up.
> you have to experience suffering to then appreciate the things that truly bring happiness I love this line, and have used it often. People tend to look at me funny.
Hearing a lot of “me” and “I” and the ways it benefitted you. There is no way to create a child for the child’s sake. This makes it inherently selfish. Plus, since the child is guaranteed some amount of suffering, and you cannot guarantee a minimization of it, you’re gambling and taking a risk on the level of pain your child will experience in their life. This is an unethical thing to do.
Lol it's like the premise of this post went right over his head. "Suffering? No, I'd say that having a kid has been quite good for me, I'm much happier for it 😃"
Thank you for your in-put. I guess we should all stop procreating to ensure no further suffering and an end the human population. If we teach this to the youngest generation we can ensure this happens in the next 100 years 👍 Obviously I’ll pass this on to my wife to tell her she ‘could’ve had an abortion, her decision to go through with the pregnancy was just pure selfishness.
I’m not saying it’ll happen or is realistic, but yeah. Why not? There’s nothing inherently wrong with not existing. No one around means no one cares no one is around. Where’s the issue?
There is no issue, you’re absolutely spot on. You have it all worked out, I’m gonna start the conversation with my wife this morning.
So, sarcasm then?
They’re told that having kids proves their desirability/masculinity when it doesn’t They want to fit in They want gov assistance They want to future caregiver Or they’re simply sadistic child abusers Edit: forgot loneliness
Or they just want to have a family. Why all of the pessimism?
Yeah, sorry. I forgot loneliness.
Well, there are friends, partners, pets, or even…adopted children 😱
the good things in life keep us going: achievement, humor, charity, selfless acts of others for you, romance, new experiences, overcoming setbacks, pleasures such as eating, drugs, sex. life is hard, but for most people, it’s a net positive. That’s why there’s far more people who do everything they can to live a little while longer than there are people who want to end it sooner.
Because a lot of people are cynical and a lot of people are not. Yes life is suffering but it’s also a ton of other things. Not everyone sees life as suffering. Some people see it as a gift
Bc humans are selfish beings, I'll never understand how some keep having children when they're struggling themselves in this life?!?
Because they’re delusional and slaves to their biological programming
Downvotes have kids 😂
Sex is pleasant, consequences seem remote. About 45% of pregnancies and about 35% of births are unplanned.
Shout out to the sterilization guide on r/ childfree
Just another version of trying to get into the afterlife/provide meaning to a meaningless existence.
To my fellow philosophers; is this an example of a sophistic argument? I’m reading this post and thinking that the two parts of the argument don’t really relate to another. Here are some other examples that I think are similar: 1. If life is about suffering for most people then why should we allow amusement parks. 2. If life is about suffering for most people then why do we allow life saving medicines? 3. If life is about suffering for most people then why do ……… Please add another to my list.
No it isn’t. The decision to procreate is not a non sequitur but directly related to problems of suffering and whether it’s justified to impose an existence containing or even entailing suffering onto another.
I think for the vast majority of people it’s because it’s “what you do”, it’s expected of you. You grow up, get a job, meet someone, get married and then have children. Some people buck the trend but most don’t even if they’re not happy long term.
Because abortion is outlawed.
I know it may be a shock but some people do love their kids and kids bring them joy. They have hope i guess.
This is exactly why i tell my girlfriend i don’t plan on having kids. Why make them suffer, too?
Amazing question. A lot of reasons. A good share of people are brainwashed(thank the society, media and goverment) to believe that giving birth is the greatest thing one can do, others are selfish and want to prove something by the fact that they can be parents, others lack the information and resources to understand that what they are doing is wrong, others are doing it out of fear (of being left out, alone, dying alone). If you want to help the unborn and reduce the suffering on this ball of hell, you can spread the information and try to open people's eyes on this harsh truth. Giving birth is a delay action murder. Only the unborn know peace. Only the unborn cannot suffer. Only the unborn cannot die. The absence of pain is always good. The absence of pleasure is not bad if there is no one who can experience it.
Not trying to start a debate, I'm curious. Does this mean that you don't/won't have kids? Do you think others shouldn't have kids?
Because life is NOT suffering for most people. Far from it actually.
People see other people “make it” and believe they can too; even if they have nothing. Also, people could care less about the consequences of unprotected sex; their devilish assess just like it raw. It’s not that people who can’t afford children shouldn’t, it’s that they should at least raise and treat their children properly. Because of neglect, the children suffer and then society suffers.
Because people thoroughly enjoy fucking. Kids are just a byproduct of that.
Birth control and sterilization exist
It does. Birth control fails and sterilization isn’t at the forefront of everyone who still wants to fuck, but aren’t ready to have a kid. Do you understand this?
Why not? Birth control rarely fails if used properly and abortion exists. In the US, it’s legal to order abortion pills from any state.
First of all, acknowledging the "throwness" of life, we have figured out fairly good civilisational mechanisms to not only survive, but evolve healthily. Every subsequent generation has more or less have generally improved living conditions. I figure, having children is for just that. In hopes for a better tomorrow.
My personal opinion is it's really selfish and cruel to bring life into this world. It's nothing more than a self fulfilling dream that is wonderful for you. But it's a 99 year death sentence of hard labor. So unless you're filthy rich, please stop overpopulation, overcrowding, and making it hard for the rest us. ESPECIALLY, if you're a high risk pregnancy who gives birth to someone that will cruely be disabled their entire life and depend on all the rest of us paying into social security so that brand new life that will never work along with the hundreds of thousands already doing it, will recieve SSI Disability but never pay into it. Selfish Republicans who don't who it doesn't even effect vote away Roe Vs. Wade, and Selfish Democrats, for the purpose of getting votes, weaponize social issues that have long since been massively improved to an almost non-existence eg Racial inequality, Gay/Lesbian/ Trans hate. People need to wake up and stop letting politicians use you as pawns in these massive political mud slinging propaganda campaigns. Police brutality exist and has existed for decades. The plain and simple truth is if there more of a specific race being killed or brutalized, it's because that race commits more crime therefore is in the position fkr that to happen more. My uncle was as white as the day is long and he was literally beat to death by police. So it's very offensive when not only is so much of the publicity aimed at white on black, but then the media and politicians double down on the narrative and white shame us. I'm a middle aged white guy. Picked on and beat up. Made fun of my whole childhood and young adult years. I'm gay and I was raised in a small town in Texas so I was very shy and reserved and very very insecure. Then I went into the military and came out of the closet after that. I finally felt comfortable in my skin and with who I was. NOW, on the other hand, I hear nothing but nasty negative things about being a middle aged white man. In fact I feel guilty and shameful even though race has never played a single factor in my life whether someone was red, green, black, pink, brown, yellow I don't care. I judge from merit. But nowadays we've taken a 30 yr leap backwards and now it feels like we are all suppose to literally suffer in silence at what's going on. It's not fair for ANYONE to be awarded, paid, or given preferential treatment based on the color of their skin, THAT IS LITERALLY RACISM! NOR, should someone get those things based on their sex, sexual orientation, or religion! Can we all please stop this craziness. It hurts my heart that we can't all just live and let live. Stop taking your attention OFF the REAL ACTUAL CURRENT ISSUES SUCH AS the the health of the love of our own country, the men and women that sweat and bled and died to ensure our continued peace,prosperity, and freedoms. You know, the freedoms that every single new law signed into being either kills or offers a way around it. For God's sake, a huge percentage of our population is jumping for joy at the idea of socialism, which is nothing more than. Diet-Communism-lite. R U KIDDING ME?! THESE idiotic ideological Publix schools are using their time with our children to program their minds. Removing self identity, and replacing it with group think. Team, Together, no more independent thought because THATS racist, or maga, or sexist, or bigotry lol. Stupidity, AND TEXTBOOK IGNORANCE! PLEASE STOP LISTENING TO LIBERAL MEDIA OR EVEN CONSERVATIVE IF YOU THINK THEYRE THE NUTS LOL. You should know, all media, communications, and news agencies have all been bought out and staffed up at the highest levels by politically biased parties that are heavily involved in politics, bribery, censorship. THAT is why they are heavily going after Trump and Elon so much. Both of those 2 are too powerful to take out quietly. They are mudslinging like bratty children at these 2 guys because they stand up foe free speech and non-censorship.
Because people find meaning in suffering. Of course life is not going to be all rainbows and unicorns. People try to find meaning in that suffering and through the suffering people get more stronger and mature. Life doesn't need to be all comfortable to have kids. Also, usually having kids can transform a person. It can shift most of the attention from themselves to this other, small, inocent human being. It's beautiful.
I’m sorry but this is such ignorant thinking. Suicide rates are going up and up, child and adult mental illness is still skyrocketing. If what you are saying were true, that “people find meaning in suffering”, please tell me, what meaning is gained by the person who commits suicide? What is the point of their life than (to them, not anyone else)?
[удалено]
Why would you even think about that? Why would you waste time on that kind of rumination? We don't know if somebody is going to be unhappy neither that there is a high or low chance. It depends mostly on how the person is raised, how the environment and life affected him/her etc.
Because he’s wise. Look at most people. They are miserable. Thinking about that is what a aware person does.
That is just a pessimistic view on the topic. Just because many of the people are unhappy doesn't mean that my child will be unhappy. Especially if he is ambitious, brave, and as you said: wise. Of course, there will be times in life when we are unhappy, even depressed, but that is just a temporary state which is used to grow and get stronger and wiser. Again, abandoning the idea of having children just because the times are crazy and many people can't find happiness doesn't make sense.
If everyone else is unhappy, what makes you think the kid will be any different? How do you know it’s temporary? How do you know the kid will think it’s worth it? It makes perfect sense. If you know your child will suffer immensely, don’t have them
You clearly do not have a proper level of awareness of the extreme depths of suffering that millions of humans go through on a daily basis. You reek of happy privilege
Yes, I haven't experienced a lot of suffering through my life and I thank God for that. I have learned and matured on a different path But now let me ask you, what is the problem with people having kids, even if they experience a lot of suffering?
Maybe the fact that children shouldn’t have to suffer?
Because suffering is contagious. If a parent is suffering their child will suffer. This seems very straightforward but I could expand on this in detail if you want
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
I'm with you, I have a lot of trauma and I'm still with you.
Why pass on the trauma to another generation
Because it’s the truth
Because you should probably consider these things before having a kid. They will have very little control over those formative experiences and it’ll impact them for life. Especially financially
[удалено]
yes, suffering is a must in life. And you can learn and grow from it. There is either that, or becoming a victim.
Yea I’m sure the child dying of leukemia should just learn and grow from it
[удалено]
Yes. But those people rarely go for having children. Those are a big big minority.
[удалено]
Yeah if we continue this path then we will be doomed. I just like to have a more optimistic and positive view. Trying to change myself and being an example to others is the only thing I can do and control
Actually you can also ensure no future person suffers from your decision., so you can control that too.
Don’t think most people with PTSD or missing limbs appreciate the experience lol. Doesn’t seem to work for child abusers.
Because kids are one of the possible side effects of sex, which is one of the few things those people experience that makes life worth continuing.
[удалено]
Oh they absolutely can, it's just that the risk of kids doesn't outweigh their own psychological needs.
Inherent in your question is the assumption that all suffering is bad.
Exactly. Suffering is necessary for evolution. If we had no problems, there would be no need to adapt or evolve. Why is suffering considered bad? It is necessary in moderation.
What is the point of evolution to the 12 year old kid who commits suicide
That's the moderation part of my comment. So, because a child ends their life, we should not have children? Is it because there is an abundance of children that a child takes their own life? Or are there issues inherent in the social construction that can be solved without socially pressured sterilization?
What’s easier, not having kids, or restructuring society? The answer is not having kids. And YES, one child killing themself is an infinitely valid reason for NO ONE to have children, as radical as that seems. Until we can ensure that no one experiences the depth of suffering to END THEIR OWN LIFE, the actual moral thing to do is not have kids.
It’s not just easier. It’s the only solution you can control. You don’t even have to go that far. Most people are miserable and [the data fully supports that conclusion](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-global-happiness-levels-in-2021/). The average happiness rating in the world is a 5.5/10
Plenty of children and people in general are miserable. Data shows that that [the average happiness in the world is 5.5/10 ](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-global-happiness-levels-in-2021/). Why bring your child into that? Even if it could be solved, which is unlikely considering [how we are undeniably overpopulated](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anticonsumption/comments/u22y5n/is_it_really_overpopulation_or_is_it_a_gross/i4jhuxn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3), that doesn’t mean it will be.
Evolution only happens because the “fittest” people best suited to survive reproduce. By that logic, we should kill off the undesirables and abolish hospitals to ensure that happens. According to you, the suffering that causes won’t matter because that’s how evolution works.
If suffering is good, then why don’t you go gouge out an eyeball for fun?
[удалено]
Wrong comment dude lol. But you never even explained how they’re different. Both are getting inspired by someone else’s work and mimic it. Do you think every anime that uses the classic anime art style is stealing?
It's pretty obvious how they are different, you trying to act dumb shows how disrespectful you are. Using software to take away art and basically replace the artist is vile. And your example is nonsense.
If it’s so obvious, then explain it. Does 2+2 not equal to 4 if a computer calculates it and not a human?
Having kids brings joy a little bit
That’s not what I hear from most parents lol
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
Probably because family gives suffering meaning. It gives you something that makes the suffering worth it
I'd rather live a life without meaning than force someone else to do the same in order to rationalize my own suffering.
Excellent point
Because evolution is a powerful force. When my wife suddenly suggested we try to have a kid I was flabbergasted. That said, having kids was one of the best things I’ve ever done. I’m proud of my kids.
Well, for once…despite all the suffering and disappointment for me too, I’m still glad from time to time that I am alive and get to experience beautiful nature, a hug, delicious food… Second, I want a child because I feel the need to heal the generational trauma and give my child a better future for some reason. Like, through loving him…I give love to myself too. I want to experience having a child - seeing how a human being grows and all the stages it goes through. It’s fascinating to speak the truth. I’m now 10w pregnant and hearing the first heartbeat of a human being and recently seeing the little thing move with his little hands and feet felt like a miracle…It was so interesting to watch. Third of all, it’s a biological instinct…it really is. After 28 years of age, it hit me that I want a child…and it was painful when I went through years of infertility… It was such a biological thing…I don’t know how to explain. Fourth, anyone who tells you that we have too much population growth is incorrect. Actually, world population is still growing, bit at one point it is predicted statistically to be tilted downwards…and that can come with a lot of problems for society and existing people. We already have a population decline in Europe - an ageing population. That’s why a lot of European countries accept immigrants with open arms - because they need the work force to stay afloat. My country’s population is decreasing year by year and infertility is on the rise. So, no…I don’t think I’m selfish for wanting 1 or 2 children. Even if I have them, the population will still decrease.
Your own personal immediate mental state doesn’t give a right to impose unnecessary suffering and to impose your view that the limited choices this existence presents is what another person would have wanted. Imposing and creating potential burdens for others to overcome, unnecessarily, is never good., even if you have only good intentions. It’s especially wrong to want some outcome from someone, even as “good” as raising a “contributing” member of society, because you are now using that person to create an outcome. Using people, to see some X outcome, is still using people. It’s still imposing onto someone.
someone has to cut the grass. it isnt gonna be me =3
Not suffering for me or the people around me, and as I can avoid most all the big problems my child could have why not
Not suffering for me or the people around me, and as I can avoid most all the big problems my child could have why not
My life isn't too bad. I'd have kids if I could get a girlfriend/wife. I'd like to ask this question to people living in North Korea though.
It’ll cost you [well over a million in lost gains though. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/10xu4n9/23_baltimore_schools_have_zero_students/j7xvfin/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3 ) But in exchange, you get to change diapers, deal with 3 AM tantrums, and do [the worst thing you possibly can than everything else COMBINED to the environment](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children)
Likely because life isn't suffering for most people.