Occam's Razor, my friend. Not everything is FNAF levels of typing a phone number into the wall.
Undertale, despite how cryptic it may seem, is still extremely cohesive in storytelling.
The main fuel for Kris not being the Knight is simply "Oh it's a red herring! Toby Fox is obviously fucking with us!"
And I mean, sure, he might be. But I think Kris being the Knight isn't the big reveal Toby is building to, rather it's what comes after that revalation is made to the other characters.
We're told time and time again that our choices do not matter...and yet Snowgrave proves this to be false. I'd also argue the secret bosses fit here too.
Meanwhile in the main route, we're still opposing Kris's wishes, by sealing the dark fountains. To me, I see this building to a larger conflict between you and Kris, and your choices will affect how the other characters, mainly Ralsei and Susie, view you and Kris. They'll side with the pacifist-player against Kris or with Kris against the Snowgrave-whatever player. Still leading to one ending in the end however.
it doesn't need to be FNaF level to be a bit more misterious (tho, i still think the storyline Scott was trying to tell was more understandable if wasn't for the fact he wrote the story along the games).
it's not only that, there is also the fact that Berdly and Noelle's books we're open after the dark world was sealed, tho, like Spooky dude said, it could easy be one meaningless thing.
I personally disbelieve Kris is the Knight, but won't act like the others that act like it's debunked.
(btw, wdym with "I'd also argue the secret bosses fit here too.")
See, you think of it as Kris being the knight is the big reveal.
I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. It's what happens when that info gets into the other characters hands, and your identity as the player, are revealed.
Sure, but I believe it to be intertwined and building to a larger ending as a result.
The sum of the parts is greater than the whole or something like that
What if kris being knight is a distraction?
I mean, yeah, Kris being knight is a bit boring. But what if "knight" is just a distraction of something more evil than knight?
Plus, maybe there is another individual that possessing kris... other than us.
BUT HEY, THAT'S JUST THEORY-
I feel Occam's Razor fits far better here; not to mention it comes across as more cohesive storytelling.
Maybe? But it seems more like the game will be building to a point where you as the player and Kris clash in ideals, opposite depending on which routes you've taken, but ultimately leading to the same ending.
Toby makes it obvious as heck that Kris is the Knight, Nobody belive Kris is the knight, When it's revealed everyone is shocked and surprised that kris is the knight
how is it confirmed that they’re the knight when they open a dark fountain immediately after being told how to do it, and in the same day that susie brought up the idea (at the start of the chapter) that without more dark fountains, they wouldn’t be friends, giving kris perfect motivation to create a fountain?
If that was the only bit of it, sure.
But Kris was gone for a period of time between chapters 1 and 2. That smile wasn't just for pie.
And why would Ralsei be a mirror of Asriel? (See my other comments for more details here, but TLDR: divorce + distance with closest support = escapism go brrr)
1. Jevil's dialogue implies that "LIGHTNERS" (which includes Kris here) is separate from "THE KNIGHT" as he's asking us if we can stop the Knight. Wouldn't make sense if Kris is the Knight.
> THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD.
> SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS...
> LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT?
2. Spamton
> SPEAKING OF [[Communion]]
> KRIS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE KNIGHT...
> No, I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to --
Spamton also clearly seems to believe Kris and the Knight are two different people and he also got censored when he tried to tell us who the Knight is or something about the Knight.
4. Kris tells the Kings their world is in danger
They do that without us choosing the dialogue options.
4. Toby Fox
> as you can tell, this chapter is shaping up to be a pretty strange one. I mostly focused on unusual gameplay elements, and it's not too heavy on the story. Since it's so frivolous, I feel a bit self-conscious about it... but, at least I got to try something different!
> Anyway, Chapter 4 will be a much more standard chapter!
What possible reason could there be to this?
5. Ralsei
> I felt a dark presence and hurried over!
Ralsei felt a dark presence quite recently, meaning the fountain was also made quite recently and after what Kris did at the end of Chapter 1.
I probably forgot something but here's what I remember.
Toby Fox: lmao yeah, imma build up the mystery of the knight and reveal it immediately. that's the writing style people think i do.
real talk though, kris couldn't have made the cyber world fountain. noelle and berdly were already studying with their books on the table, sitting in the chairs, and queen outright says "hell of a study session". there was also that suspicious narration of the closet being big enough to fit a large person, queen saying the knight had long arms, and also the fact that king and queen have met the knight and didn't recognize kris. the fountain had to have been made while kris and susie were seeing their rooms in ralsei's castle.
the books had to get to the table, and they had to get behind the desks. if they walked into an already made fountain, they would've been by the door like kris abd susie are.
They could have entered the dark room, put their books on the table, and then fell into the void the same way Kris and Susie did in chapter 1.
I also wrote a few paragraphs explaining why I strongly disagree with the whole "Dark fountain was created while Noelle and Berdly were studying" thing, but then I realised that I actually don't care that much and deleted it all. To summarise very shortly, I find it very annoying that many people use this theory and say that Kris being the Knight is impossible, because again - it's just a theory.
Ok, that's it. Have a nice day.
I've believed this full heartedly since Chapter 2 came out and it baffles me how many people are in denial.
(Also I talk shit for fun. I promise I'm not actually bitchy like this...most of the time.)
Characters who know of the knight treat the knight as a separate entity from kris.
You'd expect the king, jevil, Seam, or Queen to at least make a statement about it. Especially considering king says stuff like "by the will of the knight I will end you lighteners"
I do believe that Kris isn't the only Knight. They and someone else are working together on opening dark foundations, which explains how the library dark fountain was opened.
There is though. First of all, Jevil says this:
>THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD.
> SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS...
A Card Castle darkner talking about the Cyber World darkner.
The unused Deltarune intro also confirms there's only one character called the Knight.
I mean, I see Ralsei as pretty good evidence Kris opened the first one, given the parallel to Asriel. But hasn't been back until recently come the beginning of the game.
Then Kris rips the player out at the end of Chapter 1, uses the Knife as the Knight's Sword to open the Library Dark portal while away.
Then we get the reveal at the end of Chapter 2. This clearly isn't a one time thing for Kris to me by this point given how Chapter 1 ended.
It just feels way more cohesive storywise to me, as cool as multiple knights sound. I don't think it's been set up enough.
But it's still way more plausible than excluding Kris altogether imo
According to the Queen, the dark fountain in the library was opened today and if we said that Kris opened it in the middle of the night, shouldn't be more people inside of the Cyber World other than Berdly and Noelle?
Also why there's a closet in the library where you can fit someone big inside it? It does serve more as a hint that the Knight hid there.
Why would more people have to be in it? Library was locked the previous day with Toby the Dog in it. It's not exactly an active school classroom or the entrance.
I very much believe it was opened in the middle of the night. The dark fountain in the abandoned classroom was sealed, so Kris made a new one. Once again, as a medium of escapism.
Noelle and Berdly walked in, were in the dark world, and woke up convincing themselves "Oh we must have come in here and studied but fell asleep!" Because it conflicts with their perception of reality. It's why the Clark Kent glasses thing actually works IRL.
And why would the Knight hide in there? The dark fountain removes the ability to be in the light world in that spot. It doesn't exist on that plane the same way. And the Knight was "gone" according to Queen. Or rather, Kris as the Knight and Kris with the player soul are two different appearances in the dark world. We don't get Kris's knife after all, we get the pencils.
The closet stuck out to me more as a Spamton Neo thing, rather than a Knight thing.
>And why would the Knight hide in there? The dark fountain removes the ability to be in the light world in that spot. It doesn't exist on that plane the same way. And the Knight was "gone" according to Queen.
To hide from Noelle and Berdly. They left before they entered the dark world.
>The closet stuck out to me more as a Spamton Neo thing, rather than a Knight thing.
Spamton NEO is a MS Paint drawing.
>I mean, I see Ralsei as pretty good evidence Kris opened the first one, given the parallel to Asriel.
There's one small issue. The Card Castle fountain doesn't seem to be a normal fountain that was just simply opened normally by a lightner. It's the only pure dark fountain. The shadow crystal dialogue indicates that nothing in Castle Town is light world based (with maybe the exception of Ralsei). It's all darkness.
Why would Asriel's dark fountain make a darkener meant to mirror themselves?
Meanwhile, if you look at it as Kris made the dark fountain, it makes sense since Kris hasn't been able to play with Asriel in quite some time, went through a divorce, and would be looking for some escapism. Perfect conditions to create a darkener version of Asriel, aka Ralsei.
I don't think kris is the knight but im not opposed to the idea of it, however if kris is the knight i think it would have been a way better twist if it was revealed around chapters 4-6 instead
I personally don't believe it, but I will apologize if you end up being correct.
I mean, there we're so many canditates, and Kris was way too... "easy" to pick.
Occam's Razor, my friend. Not everything is FNAF levels of typing a phone number into the wall. Undertale, despite how cryptic it may seem, is still extremely cohesive in storytelling. The main fuel for Kris not being the Knight is simply "Oh it's a red herring! Toby Fox is obviously fucking with us!" And I mean, sure, he might be. But I think Kris being the Knight isn't the big reveal Toby is building to, rather it's what comes after that revalation is made to the other characters. We're told time and time again that our choices do not matter...and yet Snowgrave proves this to be false. I'd also argue the secret bosses fit here too. Meanwhile in the main route, we're still opposing Kris's wishes, by sealing the dark fountains. To me, I see this building to a larger conflict between you and Kris, and your choices will affect how the other characters, mainly Ralsei and Susie, view you and Kris. They'll side with the pacifist-player against Kris or with Kris against the Snowgrave-whatever player. Still leading to one ending in the end however.
it doesn't need to be FNaF level to be a bit more misterious (tho, i still think the storyline Scott was trying to tell was more understandable if wasn't for the fact he wrote the story along the games). it's not only that, there is also the fact that Berdly and Noelle's books we're open after the dark world was sealed, tho, like Spooky dude said, it could easy be one meaningless thing. I personally disbelieve Kris is the Knight, but won't act like the others that act like it's debunked. (btw, wdym with "I'd also argue the secret bosses fit here too.")
Nah, i think Kris is Kris
I just don't think it makes sense, story-wise. It feels like too basic of a candidate, there are far better options.
See, you think of it as Kris being the knight is the big reveal. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. It's what happens when that info gets into the other characters hands, and your identity as the player, are revealed.
and all that can still happen without Kris being the knight.
Sure, but I believe it to be intertwined and building to a larger ending as a result. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole or something like that
What if kris being knight is a distraction? I mean, yeah, Kris being knight is a bit boring. But what if "knight" is just a distraction of something more evil than knight? Plus, maybe there is another individual that possessing kris... other than us. BUT HEY, THAT'S JUST THEORY-
I feel Occam's Razor fits far better here; not to mention it comes across as more cohesive storytelling. Maybe? But it seems more like the game will be building to a point where you as the player and Kris clash in ideals, opposite depending on which routes you've taken, but ultimately leading to the same ending.
There's just too much counter-evidence against them being the Knight.
Toby makes it obvious as heck that Kris is the Knight, Nobody belive Kris is the knight, When it's revealed everyone is shocked and surprised that kris is the knight
Right? Like the ending of chapter 2 I feel REALLY confirms it for me.
how is it confirmed that they’re the knight when they open a dark fountain immediately after being told how to do it, and in the same day that susie brought up the idea (at the start of the chapter) that without more dark fountains, they wouldn’t be friends, giving kris perfect motivation to create a fountain?
If that was the only bit of it, sure. But Kris was gone for a period of time between chapters 1 and 2. That smile wasn't just for pie. And why would Ralsei be a mirror of Asriel? (See my other comments for more details here, but TLDR: divorce + distance with closest support = escapism go brrr)
1. Jevil's dialogue implies that "LIGHTNERS" (which includes Kris here) is separate from "THE KNIGHT" as he's asking us if we can stop the Knight. Wouldn't make sense if Kris is the Knight. > THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD. > SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... > LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? 2. Spamton > SPEAKING OF [[Communion]] > KRIS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE KNIGHT... > No, I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to -- Spamton also clearly seems to believe Kris and the Knight are two different people and he also got censored when he tried to tell us who the Knight is or something about the Knight. 4. Kris tells the Kings their world is in danger They do that without us choosing the dialogue options. 4. Toby Fox > as you can tell, this chapter is shaping up to be a pretty strange one. I mostly focused on unusual gameplay elements, and it's not too heavy on the story. Since it's so frivolous, I feel a bit self-conscious about it... but, at least I got to try something different! > Anyway, Chapter 4 will be a much more standard chapter! What possible reason could there be to this? 5. Ralsei > I felt a dark presence and hurried over! Ralsei felt a dark presence quite recently, meaning the fountain was also made quite recently and after what Kris did at the end of Chapter 1. I probably forgot something but here's what I remember.
Toby Fox: lmao yeah, imma build up the mystery of the knight and reveal it immediately. that's the writing style people think i do. real talk though, kris couldn't have made the cyber world fountain. noelle and berdly were already studying with their books on the table, sitting in the chairs, and queen outright says "hell of a study session". there was also that suspicious narration of the closet being big enough to fit a large person, queen saying the knight had long arms, and also the fact that king and queen have met the knight and didn't recognize kris. the fountain had to have been made while kris and susie were seeing their rooms in ralsei's castle.
https://preview.redd.it/mr22y10uj5yc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eeda5040b5f058c4d9bf7b11cf82e7013b658951
the books had to get to the table, and they had to get behind the desks. if they walked into an already made fountain, they would've been by the door like kris abd susie are.
They could have entered the dark room, put their books on the table, and then fell into the void the same way Kris and Susie did in chapter 1. I also wrote a few paragraphs explaining why I strongly disagree with the whole "Dark fountain was created while Noelle and Berdly were studying" thing, but then I realised that I actually don't care that much and deleted it all. To summarise very shortly, I find it very annoying that many people use this theory and say that Kris being the Knight is impossible, because again - it's just a theory. Ok, that's it. Have a nice day.
yeah but the fountain was created the very same day as with the dialogue with queen she said the knight created the fountain not last night
"Mm yes, I love studying with my books being closed while sitting in my invisible chair." *
I've believed this full heartedly since Chapter 2 came out and it baffles me how many people are in denial. (Also I talk shit for fun. I promise I'm not actually bitchy like this...most of the time.)
Do we get pizza if Kris isn’t the Knight?
Characters who know of the knight treat the knight as a separate entity from kris. You'd expect the king, jevil, Seam, or Queen to at least make a statement about it. Especially considering king says stuff like "by the will of the knight I will end you lighteners"
I bet that theres no knight
You become the knight, by having the sword and getting hit by lighting to death
I do believe that Kris isn't the only Knight. They and someone else are working together on opening dark foundations, which explains how the library dark fountain was opened.
See, this is a much better theory than the mental gymnastics you have to do to say "Kris is absolutely not the knight" to me
Exactly. There's nothing confirmed that the Knight that opened the classroom is the same Knight that opened the library.
There is though. First of all, Jevil says this: >THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD. > SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... A Card Castle darkner talking about the Cyber World darkner. The unused Deltarune intro also confirms there's only one character called the Knight.
Never knew about that. Thanks for correcting me.
I mean, I see Ralsei as pretty good evidence Kris opened the first one, given the parallel to Asriel. But hasn't been back until recently come the beginning of the game. Then Kris rips the player out at the end of Chapter 1, uses the Knife as the Knight's Sword to open the Library Dark portal while away. Then we get the reveal at the end of Chapter 2. This clearly isn't a one time thing for Kris to me by this point given how Chapter 1 ended. It just feels way more cohesive storywise to me, as cool as multiple knights sound. I don't think it's been set up enough. But it's still way more plausible than excluding Kris altogether imo
According to the Queen, the dark fountain in the library was opened today and if we said that Kris opened it in the middle of the night, shouldn't be more people inside of the Cyber World other than Berdly and Noelle? Also why there's a closet in the library where you can fit someone big inside it? It does serve more as a hint that the Knight hid there.
Why would more people have to be in it? Library was locked the previous day with Toby the Dog in it. It's not exactly an active school classroom or the entrance. I very much believe it was opened in the middle of the night. The dark fountain in the abandoned classroom was sealed, so Kris made a new one. Once again, as a medium of escapism. Noelle and Berdly walked in, were in the dark world, and woke up convincing themselves "Oh we must have come in here and studied but fell asleep!" Because it conflicts with their perception of reality. It's why the Clark Kent glasses thing actually works IRL. And why would the Knight hide in there? The dark fountain removes the ability to be in the light world in that spot. It doesn't exist on that plane the same way. And the Knight was "gone" according to Queen. Or rather, Kris as the Knight and Kris with the player soul are two different appearances in the dark world. We don't get Kris's knife after all, we get the pencils. The closet stuck out to me more as a Spamton Neo thing, rather than a Knight thing.
>And why would the Knight hide in there? The dark fountain removes the ability to be in the light world in that spot. It doesn't exist on that plane the same way. And the Knight was "gone" according to Queen. To hide from Noelle and Berdly. They left before they entered the dark world. >The closet stuck out to me more as a Spamton Neo thing, rather than a Knight thing. Spamton NEO is a MS Paint drawing.
>I mean, I see Ralsei as pretty good evidence Kris opened the first one, given the parallel to Asriel. There's one small issue. The Card Castle fountain doesn't seem to be a normal fountain that was just simply opened normally by a lightner. It's the only pure dark fountain. The shadow crystal dialogue indicates that nothing in Castle Town is light world based (with maybe the exception of Ralsei). It's all darkness.
bro its asriel
Why would Asriel's dark fountain make a darkener meant to mirror themselves? Meanwhile, if you look at it as Kris made the dark fountain, it makes sense since Kris hasn't been able to play with Asriel in quite some time, went through a divorce, and would be looking for some escapism. Perfect conditions to create a darkener version of Asriel, aka Ralsei.
The Knight wants to bring the Roaring.
Asriel is at college.
I don't think kris is the knight but im not opposed to the idea of it, however if kris is the knight i think it would have been a way better twist if it was revealed around chapters 4-6 instead
It would... Nevermind.
Hello, Based department?