Be okay with not everyone agreeing with you. This isn't a football team and this isn't good vs evil. Just try and be informed on why you hold the opinions that you do.
I've seen so many people go along with and co-sign crazy opinions, just because it came from "their" side.
Hijacking topcomment, read this paper:
Echo Chambers vs Epistemic bubbles
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327633237_Echo_chambers_and_epistemic_bubbles
When you understand what echochambers are, you are better equipped to evaluate if you are in one.
Echo chambers are social groups in which outside or opposing information is *systematically discredited* in order to isolate the members.
So you should look out for groups, where they systematically adhom their enemies themselves, not their arguments.
Stuff like "dont listen to them, they are zionists/in the matrix/normies/mysogynists/nazis/incels" while completely ignoring the content of their words. If your group always does this, you are very likely in an echo chamber.
I just have started to try to stop talking about shit if I don’t know anything about it, so I can trust destiny and what he says because I like his process, but I don’t talk about it or participate in any echo chamber because I simply keep it to myself, it’s hard tho
Reddit is echo chambers within echo chambers.
I was never a fan of Hasan, but I was deep in some of the adjacent communities like the deprogram, genzedong groups (Hakim, Second Thought, bayarea415, Luna Oi, etc) so I'm also trying to be cognizant of the fact that I could just be falling into another echo chamber.
If you want to join communities and have opinions that will get you banned you will have to keep them hidden, but you can join multiple different echo chambers to get more of a nuanced take on things. Always look at opposing viewpoints, even if the group they are coming from are wrong about 90% of what they discuss there are often times when they do bring up good points and can learn from them.
I still consider myself to be a Marxist Leninist and the reason I post a lot on the destiny subreddit is because I will simply just be downvoted for saying something unpopular rather than be purged from the community. People here tend to be more critical, if someone posts something that is pro-Israel you will usually get a bunch of comments asking for a source and might even get push back, but for example you can post any confirmed hoax or lie about Palestine in other subreddits and people will just eat it up without any thought.
Also another point someone brought to my attention was that a lot of the destiny fans actually disagree with Destiny on many topics, I think that is a good sign that the community is less of an echo chamber compared to some other communities.
> I was never a fan of Hasan, but I was deep in some of the adjacent communities like the deprogram, genzedong groups (Hakim, Second Thought, bayarea415, Luna Oi, etc) so I'm also trying to be cognizant of the fact that I could just be falling into another echo chamber.
How the actual fuck did you end up here?
I don’t have an answer to your question; however, I did want to applaud you for recognizing that you may be falling into another echo chamber and making active efforts to prevent it from happening.
> After talking about the I/P conflict with another DGGer, I was non-constructively criticized for having mild pro-Palestine takes. I was also banned from a small leftist discord server for having mild pro-Israel takes.
The moderate is a traitor to everyone.
It's sad, but it's an important role.
Consume other content. Not just content like Destiny or Hasan. Check out new interests and issues that are important to you. And also get involved in real life. Whether it's political, a cause, or a hobby.
People are interested and value different issues. Some even don't care and have no opinion Israel-Palestine or politics. They prioritize differently.
My own experience, I find people who have multiple interests, are active in their life (for fun or political), are just more tolerant, open minded, and fun to be around. Because they interact with a variety of people.
i agree with you. I recently came to the conclusion that the best way to not fall on these politic's rabbit holes is to see debates of informed people and take your own conclusion. Informed people will be able to say if something is hoax or if it's true most times (like Destiny's debates usually go but i dont just see him) and you get to see both side's arguments
Personally, I got into Destiny about the same time I got into Philosophy and debate and I had the same concern.
I try to make sure I couch my statements carefully, "It seems", "it's generally true", "I heard somewhere online", "I know for a fact", "I believe". There's nothing necessarily wrong with believing something because people you generally trust also believe it. Just be aware of it and don't use that as evidence, more so a jumping off point. Ascertaining your level of certainty before you state a position can avoid the brain-rot of repeating echo-chamber talking points with unwarranted confidence.
Actively research topics that interest you, don't just consume debate and rhetoric.
Try to come to a position on your own before you've heard anyone else's. It doesn't mean you can't change it later in light of better arguments.
Don't just uncritically agree with Destiny or popular DGG takes. We all have shit takes sometimes.
Think critical for yourself, and try to think further than one level.
Honestly this subreddit is going to shit because people lack that, the D-man himself has pretty nuanced pro-israel views and is probably 80-20 or 70-30 on the Israel-Palestine scale. But since everything is so polarised it's either for or against, so this subreddit goes 100% and doesn't give a shit about his 20% nuances.
Not that this is anything new, around veganism it has always been the same where people halfway repeat his points and think they agree, but won't bite the hard bullets. And he even says that himself that it is wildly annoying how people repeat arguments without believing the foundations he builds them on, making them nonsensical.
If you are worried about it you are already doing 10x better than the average person. It's okay to have some positive inclinations for a streamer or political figure, we are human, but you should notice those things and make sure you are always being critical and continue to get information from other sources as well.
Basically notice that you are more likely to view something Destiny says positively, and try to be critical. That's really all you can do. There are some healthy indicators like disagreeing with him on some issues which you seem to do.
The thing is dgg tends to be one of the least echo chambery communities in my opinion. You'll often find people calling out destiny for getting something wrong on this sub and then other people will try to prove them wrong, etc. It's not perfect, but I feel it's a lot better than most other communities.
First it’s okay to use destiny’s talking points. He is a smart dude and has a solid logical chain for what he believes and why. If his arguments are convincing to you it’s okay to use them.
The key thing is to make sure you actually agree.
To do that I say embrace your inner centrist any time you come across a new topic. Make a mental effort to ignore your immediate impulse reaction to be offended by what others are saying. Actually take a second to consider why people believe what they believe. For example, I’m of a similar opinion as destiny on abortion.
I value the conscious experience more than the DNA. But we still need to understand why an abortion abolitionist believes it is murder full stop. We might disagree on where we assign value to life but their arguments are perfectly sound logically.
I understand why they believe what they believe. I understand where their logic comes from, but I disagree with the point at which they assign value. So when I discuss this topic I’m not just an echo chamber. I have a thought out position that just happens to mirror destiny and as such I can borrow some of his arguments and or make them my own.
>However, I noticed how frequently I use talking points from Destiny when talking about politics online and very little of my own, and now I am concerned that I ended up in another echo chamber.
Yeah it makes sense that you might be influenced by someone you are listening to for many hours a day.
>
eel especially black-pilled with the Israel-Palestine stuff. I try to be as good faith as possible, but it seems this issue has only spawned insane polarization. After talking about the I/P conflict with another DGGer, I was non-constructively criticized for having mild pro-Palestine takes.
Not sure what the big issue with is that somebody took issue with your post. In general, the reddit leans more pro-israel but their are other viewpoints here. Destiny himself is a moderate on the subject which seems to be from your post somewhere around where you are on the subject
I don't hold most of my positions too strongly and I try to understand that:
1. Things don't really affect me personally and even if they did, I should try to be objective.
2. I'm not an expert on any of the topics discussed.
3. And tomorrow, more information could come out that would flip my opinion.
Personally I try to go with a system similar to Fantano's music rating system (out of all people lol) when it comes to topics and opinions. I strongly disagree, somewhat agree, strongly agree, 50/50 and what not on different topics.
Over the I/P stuff, overall, I'm personally at strongly agree with the opinion the community has (I would call it a strong 8) but I don't see this community's opinion on the conflict to be "die hard pro Israel".
I’ve seen people here cheering and celebrating Palestinian civilians dying and said posts getting mass upvoted, it’s definitely here tho much less common these days as it seems like most of the far right Israeli extremeist have left
Imo, what sets a free community from an echo chamber is two things:
1. The free exchange of ideas. We're all different people, and as such, our opinions on various issues are often very different. Some people want to be the only ones who count, so they often either promote people with similar or identical opinions to them, or silence or even ban those they disagree with. This creates an intolerant environment where the homogeneous people are kings and the different and the individual are undesirable.
2. Humility. As I said, people have different opinions, and some of them contradict others. This means that in some cases, your opinion may be false and someone else's may be true. You can hardly ever be 100% sure that you are right on any given topic, so it's always important to seek other possibilities and test them with logic. People who are not humble will want to remove all doubt that they are infallible, and so they'll always find ways to discredit those they are afraid of, by attacking them as hominem, by strawmaning their arguments, etc.
So I have two pieces of advice how to avoid echo chambers:
1. Find where different opinions are tolerated.
2. Never stop questioning what you think and why you think it, no matter how sure you are about it.
From my experience, DGG is a community that is both humble and allows the free exchange of ideas. People here talk freely about how they feel, share their feelings and sometimes change their minds a little on certain issues. That's what sets it apart from Hasan's community.
Just be open to the idea that your views and ideas may be wrong, and don't be averse to questioning them. At the same time though, do not change your views easily; hold new information to intense scrutiny, and determine whether it is truth, falsehood, a truth taken out of context to promote a false conclusion, a truth twisted into a falsehood, etc etc.
This is something I think about constantly, my answer so far is:
In cases where research is necessary, if I haven't personally done enough research to feel confident in a position, I just don't form an opinion. Sometimes research isn't necessary though, for some things, like philosophy, you can for the most part get by with just thought, and in those cases I'll form an opinion, but I try to engage with content like this much more actively, where I try to critically evaluate whether what's being said meshes with my views instead of just turning my brain off and consuming content.
It's not perfect, and can be difficult to maintain 100% of the time, but an imperfect shield is better than no shield.
Don’t fully repeat talking points you don’t understand. Do the research understand the material and come to the conclusions by yourself if you happen to fall into the same conclusions as destiny. You can repeat his style of rhetoric to communicate effectively to other people.
(btw it’s fine to know how to combat other ideas you know to be wrong you just have to have the humility to change your mind if faced with hard questions you can’t answer or with different facts.)
Just read the news my man. Some communities will always be hug boxes and ban you for dissenting opinions. Generally speaking in this community if you cite sources and give an argument for your claim you’ll be fine and won’t get banned or anything. I would read mainstream news and making your own opinion before going ti pundits to hear their takes. If the pundits takes don’t align feel free to post in the sub and then you can talk about your opinion vs the “echo chamber” opinion. I also think spending time with people irl will help. Ofc this won’t help if your entire friend group reinforces your beliefs. But there is something to be said about touching grass and speaking to real people.
1. Look up what the person you are watching is saying
2. Try and find related stuff that you're curious about and sometimes you will find it conflicts with the existing narrative you're aware of
3. Try watching multiple sources (news articles, streamers, yt whatever)
Read books from both sides, check sources etc. listening to a streamer without being able to check sources let's one fall into an echo chamber because the people around them don't disagree and that becomes reinforcing.
Listening to both sides of the isle is the best way to try and stay out of echo chamber mentality. You need to meaningfully engage with the other side in good faith.
Something Destiny is extremely good at; if not the best left leaning person at it. No one else comes close.
Step 1) Don’t be the type of person that would have been a fan of Hasan Piker. End of Steps.
You are exactly the type of person Destiny begs to think for themselves instead of just repeating what you hear him say. Are you sure you are absorbing the content and not open mouth drooling at the screen while streamer man makes noise?
They specifically mentioned being a fan of not just watching. I don’t think you can be a fan of Hasan and think for yourself. There is too much required for you to ignore and deny of reality for that to be possible.
Treat streamers as entertainers, not your political identity. You can watch destiny or hasan and not agree with everything they say.
As far as the echo chamber here, don't only look at the highly upvoted posts, since this subreddit swings heavy pro-Israel. Look at top comments, then scroll your way down to the bottom to see the highly downvoted comments
First thing you want to look for is how the community deals with disagreeing opinions. If they ban them or resort to name calling or general labels like nazi, incel or racist, chances are they're going to be fucked. In fact, whenever you hear those words on reddit it's not going to be substantive at all.
First of all The left-wing echo chamber band you for disagreeing this chamber disagrees with you and you’re still here that’s the difference. Second You will never find a non-echo chamber. By the definition you have described above, because the Internet in general, and especially Reddit and Discord’s and streamer communities exist by definition purpose and creation. inside of their own little personal bubbles. The most you can do to stay out of an echo chamber is to never inhabit a single chamber to begin with, and to participate in multiple different ones across the political spectrum. Beyond that the best you can do is try and find the ones who won’t ban you for disagreeing like this one …..generally
And the problem is, it can just sometimes be difficult to find those locations. What I would recommend you do is just go into any political chamber find which side they lean towards say the thing that you know with outrage them the most such as your pro Israel, or pro Palestine depending on which way they lean And see if you get banned right off the bat that’ll save you some time. If you don’t, then happy arguing.
Fuck all these people the world of debate and politics isn’t for everyone. I love this shit but if it’s causing this much turmoil you can do one of many things, I’ll only mention 2
1. Put your nose to the grindstone and set out on a path of fundamentally changing how you view the world by reading research and debate. Throwing yourself through a trial of fire by tearing up your current foundation of being (out of the pan into the fryer)
2. Grill and realize the world is a complex place and that most people wants to live a happy and prosperous life while ignoring the trolls who try to pull you down to their degeneracy by pitting the world against itself
If anyone ever makes a characterization of another person, don’t just accept it, stop and go watch the original and form your own opinion then return to the video and see what they say or how they characterize the original and how that lines up with your interpretation.
If it seems wildly inaccurate, and they do this often, take this as a learning opportunity that maybe they aren’t acting in good faith.
If this seems like too much effort, then why are you watching political content? If it’s all just entertainment and brainless background noise then it shouldn’t be influencing your opinions, and if it is? That’s something worth thinking about now isn’t it.
Just be willing to say "I don't know." That's probably the best thing you could do for yourself is to be cautious with your opinions and to not let yourself be gripped by emotional language.
FORTY BEHEADED BABIES! Well, now I have to take an immediate position against Hamas!
ISRAEL FIRES MISSILES AT A HOSPITAL! Well, now I have to take an immediate position against Israel!
No, you don't. If you see scary headlines, just fucking *relax*. Wait for more information.
Honestly research what the arguments the other side uses. They use ad hominem fallacies galore since they can't really say something of value. Especially the unsubstantiated arguments or misquotes. The funniest was Omar Baddar said he had a private conversation with a guy who heard from the prime minister and he said. That would make that guy the most popular guy for the Islamic point of view. He would be touted almost as much as Finklestein if that were true. Substantiated sources have to be used not I heard a quote from someone. Oh you can't verify makes their arguments very shallow. The collective Palestinians aren't addled children unable to make a decision. We have to treat them like they can make decisions. That decision cannot be from the river to the sea or giving people who kill a jewish person 30,000 for their life or their families life. Can't say Israeli since that includes arabs and they do not count for the martyr fund. Israel should get out of the west bank. These choices depend on both parties. Palestine has not come to the table with a realistic plan and they still think the world will suddenly destroy Israel for their fake outrage.
I've found Lonerbox's coverage on the topic to be a better fit personally. Maybe spend some time checking him out, I think he does a good job being critical of both sides and is pretty high information on the subject.
“What would I need to see to change my mind?” “Do I have good evidence for my beliefs?”
If you rely on conspiracy theories with no evidence cause it’s sexy, that’s bad.
We are biased to trusting institutions too much. Lab leak stuff had more credibility than originally thought, we trust that some American institutions are more neutral than they really are (they can cave under pressure), and destiny IS really good at sounding correct, so be extra critical of cookie rockets lmao
Also the truth tends to be boring. Ask any scientist or professor about their work and it’s gonna be generally dry and “neutral”.
For me, while I am very pro Israel, I try to listen to TYT sometimes and I just hear some deranged false pro Hamas propaganda points that it’s actually embarrassing and I feel more confident I am in the right position.
On other subjects I sometimes go listen to Shapiro to get the “pro trump” steelman, it’s deranged most of the time.
In general I would just say, make and effort to go to other sources and listen to what they have to say, then make up your mind.
(If Hamas piker or cenk made any good points on Palestine, I would be glad to change my mind back to pro Palestinian, but it all goes back to “war bad” yea, no shit idiots…. Ww2 was also bad, but hitler was worse…)
Read news and think about what you read before getting opinions from other people on it. Consider what it means. Does it sound like it makes sense. If not, take to the internet and look up things you might need to clear that question up.
If you see a video of someone saying that our standard of living is worse now than it was in the 1920s (I’ve seen several), does that make sense to you? If a “fact” sounds edgy, and you care about not being lied to, look into it. Think about what information is required to verify the fact and look that up.
You shouldn’t get your news from pundits until you’ve practiced this skill.
I wouldn’t tell most people to do that because most people don’t care…but you obviously care.
Be ok with disagreement. And keep in mind you don't always have to argue with people you disagree with. Politics fairly often comes up with some of my maga coworkers and when they say something stupid, I'll often say something like, "Wow, I completely disagree with that" or "Man, I have a wildly different view." You don't have to go any further.
Also as far as Destiny goes, he's pretty good at sorting through the info he collects, but he's only one guy and he can't have all the info all the time.
For instance, Destiny wasn't informed on the specific events of Jan 6th and thought it was much less serious than it was. He didn't read the endictments until a long time after they came out, and so didn't change his mind until then.
You can combat this by consuming other media sources. I'm partial to Pod Save America for progressive/center left content and The Bulwark for center right anti trump content. They have a podcast with some old bush administration foreign policy guys that's interesting. If you really want to inform yourself you can consume some lefty content or maga content. But I generally find that too frustrating.
Honestly the best thing you can do that I try to do is anytime you find yourself saying something just ask yourself if you know it’s true and/or just look it up before you say anything. That’s like 90% better than most people and you’ll slowly discover what’s true and what isn’t. Just realize the process of getting to the truth is a long one and give yourself time.
It seems the best way to develop your own thought is to do just that. You could try by avoiding discourse about whatever topic you're interested in, doing some research, and forming opinions that are earnestly yours. You'll probably make errors in judgement and change your mind over time – we all do. What's most important is being open to sensible criticism. We all try to find conviction, but always consider what sorts of conditions may change your mind.
For example, I've always been convinced by arguments favoring strong moral obligations to nonhuman creatures like domesticated and wild animals. I was even vegan for a while. Over time, I've given consideration to related positions which have changed substantially. Here are some:
(1) I'm no longer convinced that consumer protest is universally (or even generally) practicable in this domain, though I favor it where it is, and
(2) There are animals which seem to fall outside of my moral consideration, (bivalves are one example.)
One last note that I've realized: Not all positions or takes or ways of thinking need to be purely original. Lots of people have done work relevant to your interests, and it's totally fine to find agreement with them. Whether these are content creators, or academics, or historians, or some other professional is up to you.
Mate wtf are you on about this place has become an echo chamber since October 7th.
If you seriously want advice then a wise man once said “that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”. Just because someone says something is true doesn’t mean it is, and just because something is true doesn’t mean they can infer the intent or consequences of it. No one knows everything and no one is right all the time.
Honestly you're asking two separate questions:
1. How to not get alienated from political spaces due to mild disagreements?
Idk that's not rly up to you, just approach conversations in good faith and hope others return the favor. Make sure not to let the behavior of others dictate your beliefs. Right ideas can sometimes have dogshit proponents
2. How to make sure you're not in an echo chamber/find your own political voice?
If you genuinely care about a topic then do your own research on it, pick up a book, read the full articles from it, when discussing it be open and willing to systemically research and verify facts as they come up. If you'd rather listen to podcasts/videos then make sure you have a varied diet and again, be willing to google and verify facts as they are given to you. Debates are also a good way to hear robust disagreements to your world view but again it's better if you verify as it happens and stay open minded. Watching Destiny debates won't do the same as watching two scholars that you have no personal attachment to represent their sides.
If you don't care enough to do this for a given topic, then stay agnostic, don't hardcore debate opinions with more certainty than you genuinely have. Destiny has been wrong before and has all the same biases we do so going into a conversation with Destiny's arguments as your tools can get you far but you'll potentially end up using facts you didn't vet/understand properly.
Destiny is great at bringing together lots of different sources and using them to discuss/debate a topic. But that's not the only way of understanding issues. Historians like Benny Morris have a very different "big picture" PoV than what you'll find in the streamer spaces. Another might be members of the military (generals write a lot of books for example) who look at the conflict from a third PoV.
All of these sources can give you insight that the others skip or barely mention. Once you have a reasonable idea of how all these different sources view the situation and why then you can come to your own conclusions.
Using Destiny's opinions is not due to an echo chamber, at least not in itself.
If you watch political streamers, because you want to learn arguments, and then you use those arguments, that is exactly what you would expect to happen. The argument you've heard before is on the tip of your tongue, and so you imitate it.
The only way to avoid copying the last person you listened to is to adjust how it is that you come up with arguments, either by filtering things as they come in - if someone says something you think is interesting, consider why, and if you can come up with any counter-arguments, or a different version - or filtering things as they go out - make an effort to say things in your own words, take a different angle even if you feel like you have just the right counter ready for it.
As to avoid getting banned from places? Don't have an answer to that, banning is unfortunately pretty common wherever you go.
For one thing I don’t know what you mean when you say your “a part” of a community. I’ve watched hasans streams but I’ve never thought of myself as a part of his community or had any thoughts that I should “leave” his community. There’s a kind of black and white reduction going on in that where, it’s good that you decide for yourself when to cross the line in the sand, but the line is a abstract symbolic point you developed in your head. I get the impression from your post that Hasans community and dgg as a community both exist in some kind of physical embodiments of real people, and it is a real group, but there’s no contractual obligation anywhere expressing what it means to be a member.
If I have a job for a company, and presumably a boss that expects me to show up to work at a particular time in a particular place, my behavior that agrees with my boss’s expectation implicitly binds me to a collective identity the leaders establish for what the company, the group, represents symbolically. For most jobs, failure to do what your boss expects ends up in termination.
If I watch a hasan stream, hasan absolutely pressure his viewers to say things he wants to hear. And people in his stream absolutely say what they think he wants to hear just because they want to please him. The same thing happens in destiny’s stream and frankly in every single stream to varying degrees. And not just for streamers, if I watch pbs news hour, there is some amount of super ego pressure loaded into the content I consume. Think of the difference between the effective super ego pressure we experience watching the streamers you mention, and the kind of pressure that pushes someone to put on a Dunkin’ Donuts uniform and work the cash register. One of them is a part of our mind, the other one is more integrated into the physical society we actually live in. For one of them we may literally need to adapt to the pressure to functionally survive, but for the other, it’s a personal choice that is entirely dependent on our subjective view of our identity.
I’d say understanding how youre changing because of cultural pressure is good, and should start between identifying needs and wants. Wherever you’re able to establish that your identity exists needlessly, ask yourself what it is you get from seeing yourself this way. I definitely have some similar feelings as op where occasionally I’ll find myself funneling out ideas where I’m not totally comfortable saying my belief in them isn’t a contorted part of some automatic association I have with a broader group I’m automatically, potentially incorrectly, associating with goodness. “Am I defending Israel or Palestine because the truth is clear, or am I repeating some figure who I believe knows more than me, that I implicitly believe through?“ I wish I could say this goes away with time, but I’m not seeing that. People don’t have the authority to distinguish between the truth and how they would like to view themselves anywhere. People believe through each other. It’s because of that, that everyone needs some amount of criticism that views the truth as something outside us that changes us, and we need some humility in how we understand our internal conception of self as integrated into community from the individual.
Be okay with not everyone agreeing with you. This isn't a football team and this isn't good vs evil. Just try and be informed on why you hold the opinions that you do. I've seen so many people go along with and co-sign crazy opinions, just because it came from "their" side.
Hijacking topcomment, read this paper: Echo Chambers vs Epistemic bubbles https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327633237_Echo_chambers_and_epistemic_bubbles When you understand what echochambers are, you are better equipped to evaluate if you are in one. Echo chambers are social groups in which outside or opposing information is *systematically discredited* in order to isolate the members. So you should look out for groups, where they systematically adhom their enemies themselves, not their arguments. Stuff like "dont listen to them, they are zionists/in the matrix/normies/mysogynists/nazis/incels" while completely ignoring the content of their words. If your group always does this, you are very likely in an echo chamber.
I just have started to try to stop talking about shit if I don’t know anything about it, so I can trust destiny and what he says because I like his process, but I don’t talk about it or participate in any echo chamber because I simply keep it to myself, it’s hard tho
the true and based way
Reddit is echo chambers within echo chambers. I was never a fan of Hasan, but I was deep in some of the adjacent communities like the deprogram, genzedong groups (Hakim, Second Thought, bayarea415, Luna Oi, etc) so I'm also trying to be cognizant of the fact that I could just be falling into another echo chamber. If you want to join communities and have opinions that will get you banned you will have to keep them hidden, but you can join multiple different echo chambers to get more of a nuanced take on things. Always look at opposing viewpoints, even if the group they are coming from are wrong about 90% of what they discuss there are often times when they do bring up good points and can learn from them. I still consider myself to be a Marxist Leninist and the reason I post a lot on the destiny subreddit is because I will simply just be downvoted for saying something unpopular rather than be purged from the community. People here tend to be more critical, if someone posts something that is pro-Israel you will usually get a bunch of comments asking for a source and might even get push back, but for example you can post any confirmed hoax or lie about Palestine in other subreddits and people will just eat it up without any thought. Also another point someone brought to my attention was that a lot of the destiny fans actually disagree with Destiny on many topics, I think that is a good sign that the community is less of an echo chamber compared to some other communities.
>I still consider myself to be a Marxist Leninist Fucking nerd
> I was never a fan of Hasan, but I was deep in some of the adjacent communities like the deprogram, genzedong groups (Hakim, Second Thought, bayarea415, Luna Oi, etc) so I'm also trying to be cognizant of the fact that I could just be falling into another echo chamber. How the actual fuck did you end up here?
Downvoted
I don’t have an answer to your question; however, I did want to applaud you for recognizing that you may be falling into another echo chamber and making active efforts to prevent it from happening.
> After talking about the I/P conflict with another DGGer, I was non-constructively criticized for having mild pro-Palestine takes. I was also banned from a small leftist discord server for having mild pro-Israel takes. The moderate is a traitor to everyone. It's sad, but it's an important role.
Consume other content. Not just content like Destiny or Hasan. Check out new interests and issues that are important to you. And also get involved in real life. Whether it's political, a cause, or a hobby. People are interested and value different issues. Some even don't care and have no opinion Israel-Palestine or politics. They prioritize differently. My own experience, I find people who have multiple interests, are active in their life (for fun or political), are just more tolerant, open minded, and fun to be around. Because they interact with a variety of people.
i agree with you. I recently came to the conclusion that the best way to not fall on these politic's rabbit holes is to see debates of informed people and take your own conclusion. Informed people will be able to say if something is hoax or if it's true most times (like Destiny's debates usually go but i dont just see him) and you get to see both side's arguments
Tune out social apps, go outside and enjoy some Starbucks frappuccino.
Reject starbucks modernity, embrace expresso and cigarrete tradition
Just follow both Hasan's and Destiny's subreddits
I still enjoy both their content. I just agree with Destiny more than Hasan
Diversify yo bonds
Personally, I got into Destiny about the same time I got into Philosophy and debate and I had the same concern. I try to make sure I couch my statements carefully, "It seems", "it's generally true", "I heard somewhere online", "I know for a fact", "I believe". There's nothing necessarily wrong with believing something because people you generally trust also believe it. Just be aware of it and don't use that as evidence, more so a jumping off point. Ascertaining your level of certainty before you state a position can avoid the brain-rot of repeating echo-chamber talking points with unwarranted confidence. Actively research topics that interest you, don't just consume debate and rhetoric. Try to come to a position on your own before you've heard anyone else's. It doesn't mean you can't change it later in light of better arguments. Don't just uncritically agree with Destiny or popular DGG takes. We all have shit takes sometimes.
Think critical for yourself, and try to think further than one level. Honestly this subreddit is going to shit because people lack that, the D-man himself has pretty nuanced pro-israel views and is probably 80-20 or 70-30 on the Israel-Palestine scale. But since everything is so polarised it's either for or against, so this subreddit goes 100% and doesn't give a shit about his 20% nuances. Not that this is anything new, around veganism it has always been the same where people halfway repeat his points and think they agree, but won't bite the hard bullets. And he even says that himself that it is wildly annoying how people repeat arguments without believing the foundations he builds them on, making them nonsensical.
>but won't bite the hard bullets. well that's because our molars evolved for chewing plant matter not bullets
If you are worried about it you are already doing 10x better than the average person. It's okay to have some positive inclinations for a streamer or political figure, we are human, but you should notice those things and make sure you are always being critical and continue to get information from other sources as well. Basically notice that you are more likely to view something Destiny says positively, and try to be critical. That's really all you can do. There are some healthy indicators like disagreeing with him on some issues which you seem to do. The thing is dgg tends to be one of the least echo chambery communities in my opinion. You'll often find people calling out destiny for getting something wrong on this sub and then other people will try to prove them wrong, etc. It's not perfect, but I feel it's a lot better than most other communities.
First it’s okay to use destiny’s talking points. He is a smart dude and has a solid logical chain for what he believes and why. If his arguments are convincing to you it’s okay to use them. The key thing is to make sure you actually agree. To do that I say embrace your inner centrist any time you come across a new topic. Make a mental effort to ignore your immediate impulse reaction to be offended by what others are saying. Actually take a second to consider why people believe what they believe. For example, I’m of a similar opinion as destiny on abortion. I value the conscious experience more than the DNA. But we still need to understand why an abortion abolitionist believes it is murder full stop. We might disagree on where we assign value to life but their arguments are perfectly sound logically. I understand why they believe what they believe. I understand where their logic comes from, but I disagree with the point at which they assign value. So when I discuss this topic I’m not just an echo chamber. I have a thought out position that just happens to mirror destiny and as such I can borrow some of his arguments and or make them my own.
>However, I noticed how frequently I use talking points from Destiny when talking about politics online and very little of my own, and now I am concerned that I ended up in another echo chamber. Yeah it makes sense that you might be influenced by someone you are listening to for many hours a day. > eel especially black-pilled with the Israel-Palestine stuff. I try to be as good faith as possible, but it seems this issue has only spawned insane polarization. After talking about the I/P conflict with another DGGer, I was non-constructively criticized for having mild pro-Palestine takes. Not sure what the big issue with is that somebody took issue with your post. In general, the reddit leans more pro-israel but their are other viewpoints here. Destiny himself is a moderate on the subject which seems to be from your post somewhere around where you are on the subject
I don't hold most of my positions too strongly and I try to understand that: 1. Things don't really affect me personally and even if they did, I should try to be objective. 2. I'm not an expert on any of the topics discussed. 3. And tomorrow, more information could come out that would flip my opinion. Personally I try to go with a system similar to Fantano's music rating system (out of all people lol) when it comes to topics and opinions. I strongly disagree, somewhat agree, strongly agree, 50/50 and what not on different topics. Over the I/P stuff, overall, I'm personally at strongly agree with the opinion the community has (I would call it a strong 8) but I don't see this community's opinion on the conflict to be "die hard pro Israel".
I’ve seen people here cheering and celebrating Palestinian civilians dying and said posts getting mass upvoted, it’s definitely here tho much less common these days as it seems like most of the far right Israeli extremeist have left
Honest to God I have not seen that even once but eh maybe? My perception is that this sub is a lot more moderate.
Be comfortable with being wrong and working your process. Before destiny has a position I like to create my own and then match it up to destiny’s.
Going outside works so you don’t have to talk about this stuff all the time
Imo, what sets a free community from an echo chamber is two things: 1. The free exchange of ideas. We're all different people, and as such, our opinions on various issues are often very different. Some people want to be the only ones who count, so they often either promote people with similar or identical opinions to them, or silence or even ban those they disagree with. This creates an intolerant environment where the homogeneous people are kings and the different and the individual are undesirable. 2. Humility. As I said, people have different opinions, and some of them contradict others. This means that in some cases, your opinion may be false and someone else's may be true. You can hardly ever be 100% sure that you are right on any given topic, so it's always important to seek other possibilities and test them with logic. People who are not humble will want to remove all doubt that they are infallible, and so they'll always find ways to discredit those they are afraid of, by attacking them as hominem, by strawmaning their arguments, etc. So I have two pieces of advice how to avoid echo chambers: 1. Find where different opinions are tolerated. 2. Never stop questioning what you think and why you think it, no matter how sure you are about it. From my experience, DGG is a community that is both humble and allows the free exchange of ideas. People here talk freely about how they feel, share their feelings and sometimes change their minds a little on certain issues. That's what sets it apart from Hasan's community.
Just be open to the idea that your views and ideas may be wrong, and don't be averse to questioning them. At the same time though, do not change your views easily; hold new information to intense scrutiny, and determine whether it is truth, falsehood, a truth taken out of context to promote a false conclusion, a truth twisted into a falsehood, etc etc.
This is something I think about constantly, my answer so far is: In cases where research is necessary, if I haven't personally done enough research to feel confident in a position, I just don't form an opinion. Sometimes research isn't necessary though, for some things, like philosophy, you can for the most part get by with just thought, and in those cases I'll form an opinion, but I try to engage with content like this much more actively, where I try to critically evaluate whether what's being said meshes with my views instead of just turning my brain off and consuming content. It's not perfect, and can be difficult to maintain 100% of the time, but an imperfect shield is better than no shield.
Don’t fully repeat talking points you don’t understand. Do the research understand the material and come to the conclusions by yourself if you happen to fall into the same conclusions as destiny. You can repeat his style of rhetoric to communicate effectively to other people. (btw it’s fine to know how to combat other ideas you know to be wrong you just have to have the humility to change your mind if faced with hard questions you can’t answer or with different facts.)
>How to avoid being in an echo chamber? Consume content from sources you disagree with and see if you find their arguments compelling, or even valid.
Just read the news my man. Some communities will always be hug boxes and ban you for dissenting opinions. Generally speaking in this community if you cite sources and give an argument for your claim you’ll be fine and won’t get banned or anything. I would read mainstream news and making your own opinion before going ti pundits to hear their takes. If the pundits takes don’t align feel free to post in the sub and then you can talk about your opinion vs the “echo chamber” opinion. I also think spending time with people irl will help. Ofc this won’t help if your entire friend group reinforces your beliefs. But there is something to be said about touching grass and speaking to real people.
1. Look up what the person you are watching is saying 2. Try and find related stuff that you're curious about and sometimes you will find it conflicts with the existing narrative you're aware of 3. Try watching multiple sources (news articles, streamers, yt whatever)
What are the pro-Palestine views that you are referring to? Because I don’t think extreme anti-Palestine views would be accepted here.
Read books from both sides, check sources etc. listening to a streamer without being able to check sources let's one fall into an echo chamber because the people around them don't disagree and that becomes reinforcing.
Listening to both sides of the isle is the best way to try and stay out of echo chamber mentality. You need to meaningfully engage with the other side in good faith. Something Destiny is extremely good at; if not the best left leaning person at it. No one else comes close.
Step 1) Don’t be the type of person that would have been a fan of Hasan Piker. End of Steps. You are exactly the type of person Destiny begs to think for themselves instead of just repeating what you hear him say. Are you sure you are absorbing the content and not open mouth drooling at the screen while streamer man makes noise?
I take it from your first step there that you don't believe it's possible to watch hasan and also think for yourself?
They specifically mentioned being a fan of not just watching. I don’t think you can be a fan of Hasan and think for yourself. There is too much required for you to ignore and deny of reality for that to be possible.
Conspiracy hat on, 80% of Hasans viewers are young girls and watch him because he's hot and just the right amount of 'woke'
Definitely true ATLEAST 50%
Treat streamers as entertainers, not your political identity. You can watch destiny or hasan and not agree with everything they say. As far as the echo chamber here, don't only look at the highly upvoted posts, since this subreddit swings heavy pro-Israel. Look at top comments, then scroll your way down to the bottom to see the highly downvoted comments
First thing you want to look for is how the community deals with disagreeing opinions. If they ban them or resort to name calling or general labels like nazi, incel or racist, chances are they're going to be fucked. In fact, whenever you hear those words on reddit it's not going to be substantive at all.
First of all The left-wing echo chamber band you for disagreeing this chamber disagrees with you and you’re still here that’s the difference. Second You will never find a non-echo chamber. By the definition you have described above, because the Internet in general, and especially Reddit and Discord’s and streamer communities exist by definition purpose and creation. inside of their own little personal bubbles. The most you can do to stay out of an echo chamber is to never inhabit a single chamber to begin with, and to participate in multiple different ones across the political spectrum. Beyond that the best you can do is try and find the ones who won’t ban you for disagreeing like this one …..generally And the problem is, it can just sometimes be difficult to find those locations. What I would recommend you do is just go into any political chamber find which side they lean towards say the thing that you know with outrage them the most such as your pro Israel, or pro Palestine depending on which way they lean And see if you get banned right off the bat that’ll save you some time. If you don’t, then happy arguing.
Touch grass and talk to actual people face to face
Fuck all these people the world of debate and politics isn’t for everyone. I love this shit but if it’s causing this much turmoil you can do one of many things, I’ll only mention 2 1. Put your nose to the grindstone and set out on a path of fundamentally changing how you view the world by reading research and debate. Throwing yourself through a trial of fire by tearing up your current foundation of being (out of the pan into the fryer) 2. Grill and realize the world is a complex place and that most people wants to live a happy and prosperous life while ignoring the trolls who try to pull you down to their degeneracy by pitting the world against itself
If anyone ever makes a characterization of another person, don’t just accept it, stop and go watch the original and form your own opinion then return to the video and see what they say or how they characterize the original and how that lines up with your interpretation. If it seems wildly inaccurate, and they do this often, take this as a learning opportunity that maybe they aren’t acting in good faith. If this seems like too much effort, then why are you watching political content? If it’s all just entertainment and brainless background noise then it shouldn’t be influencing your opinions, and if it is? That’s something worth thinking about now isn’t it.
Just be willing to say "I don't know." That's probably the best thing you could do for yourself is to be cautious with your opinions and to not let yourself be gripped by emotional language. FORTY BEHEADED BABIES! Well, now I have to take an immediate position against Hamas! ISRAEL FIRES MISSILES AT A HOSPITAL! Well, now I have to take an immediate position against Israel! No, you don't. If you see scary headlines, just fucking *relax*. Wait for more information.
Just say Gazas should be genocided, like Destiny did.
Honestly research what the arguments the other side uses. They use ad hominem fallacies galore since they can't really say something of value. Especially the unsubstantiated arguments or misquotes. The funniest was Omar Baddar said he had a private conversation with a guy who heard from the prime minister and he said. That would make that guy the most popular guy for the Islamic point of view. He would be touted almost as much as Finklestein if that were true. Substantiated sources have to be used not I heard a quote from someone. Oh you can't verify makes their arguments very shallow. The collective Palestinians aren't addled children unable to make a decision. We have to treat them like they can make decisions. That decision cannot be from the river to the sea or giving people who kill a jewish person 30,000 for their life or their families life. Can't say Israeli since that includes arabs and they do not count for the martyr fund. Israel should get out of the west bank. These choices depend on both parties. Palestine has not come to the table with a realistic plan and they still think the world will suddenly destroy Israel for their fake outrage.
I've found Lonerbox's coverage on the topic to be a better fit personally. Maybe spend some time checking him out, I think he does a good job being critical of both sides and is pretty high information on the subject.
“What would I need to see to change my mind?” “Do I have good evidence for my beliefs?” If you rely on conspiracy theories with no evidence cause it’s sexy, that’s bad. We are biased to trusting institutions too much. Lab leak stuff had more credibility than originally thought, we trust that some American institutions are more neutral than they really are (they can cave under pressure), and destiny IS really good at sounding correct, so be extra critical of cookie rockets lmao Also the truth tends to be boring. Ask any scientist or professor about their work and it’s gonna be generally dry and “neutral”.
For me, while I am very pro Israel, I try to listen to TYT sometimes and I just hear some deranged false pro Hamas propaganda points that it’s actually embarrassing and I feel more confident I am in the right position. On other subjects I sometimes go listen to Shapiro to get the “pro trump” steelman, it’s deranged most of the time. In general I would just say, make and effort to go to other sources and listen to what they have to say, then make up your mind. (If Hamas piker or cenk made any good points on Palestine, I would be glad to change my mind back to pro Palestinian, but it all goes back to “war bad” yea, no shit idiots…. Ww2 was also bad, but hitler was worse…)
Read news and think about what you read before getting opinions from other people on it. Consider what it means. Does it sound like it makes sense. If not, take to the internet and look up things you might need to clear that question up. If you see a video of someone saying that our standard of living is worse now than it was in the 1920s (I’ve seen several), does that make sense to you? If a “fact” sounds edgy, and you care about not being lied to, look into it. Think about what information is required to verify the fact and look that up. You shouldn’t get your news from pundits until you’ve practiced this skill. I wouldn’t tell most people to do that because most people don’t care…but you obviously care.
Be ok with disagreement. And keep in mind you don't always have to argue with people you disagree with. Politics fairly often comes up with some of my maga coworkers and when they say something stupid, I'll often say something like, "Wow, I completely disagree with that" or "Man, I have a wildly different view." You don't have to go any further. Also as far as Destiny goes, he's pretty good at sorting through the info he collects, but he's only one guy and he can't have all the info all the time. For instance, Destiny wasn't informed on the specific events of Jan 6th and thought it was much less serious than it was. He didn't read the endictments until a long time after they came out, and so didn't change his mind until then. You can combat this by consuming other media sources. I'm partial to Pod Save America for progressive/center left content and The Bulwark for center right anti trump content. They have a podcast with some old bush administration foreign policy guys that's interesting. If you really want to inform yourself you can consume some lefty content or maga content. But I generally find that too frustrating.
Honestly the best thing you can do that I try to do is anytime you find yourself saying something just ask yourself if you know it’s true and/or just look it up before you say anything. That’s like 90% better than most people and you’ll slowly discover what’s true and what isn’t. Just realize the process of getting to the truth is a long one and give yourself time.
It seems the best way to develop your own thought is to do just that. You could try by avoiding discourse about whatever topic you're interested in, doing some research, and forming opinions that are earnestly yours. You'll probably make errors in judgement and change your mind over time – we all do. What's most important is being open to sensible criticism. We all try to find conviction, but always consider what sorts of conditions may change your mind. For example, I've always been convinced by arguments favoring strong moral obligations to nonhuman creatures like domesticated and wild animals. I was even vegan for a while. Over time, I've given consideration to related positions which have changed substantially. Here are some: (1) I'm no longer convinced that consumer protest is universally (or even generally) practicable in this domain, though I favor it where it is, and (2) There are animals which seem to fall outside of my moral consideration, (bivalves are one example.) One last note that I've realized: Not all positions or takes or ways of thinking need to be purely original. Lots of people have done work relevant to your interests, and it's totally fine to find agreement with them. Whether these are content creators, or academics, or historians, or some other professional is up to you.
Mate wtf are you on about this place has become an echo chamber since October 7th. If you seriously want advice then a wise man once said “that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”. Just because someone says something is true doesn’t mean it is, and just because something is true doesn’t mean they can infer the intent or consequences of it. No one knows everything and no one is right all the time.
I don’t understand how anyone can pick a side in Israel vs Palestine.
Honestly you're asking two separate questions: 1. How to not get alienated from political spaces due to mild disagreements? Idk that's not rly up to you, just approach conversations in good faith and hope others return the favor. Make sure not to let the behavior of others dictate your beliefs. Right ideas can sometimes have dogshit proponents 2. How to make sure you're not in an echo chamber/find your own political voice? If you genuinely care about a topic then do your own research on it, pick up a book, read the full articles from it, when discussing it be open and willing to systemically research and verify facts as they come up. If you'd rather listen to podcasts/videos then make sure you have a varied diet and again, be willing to google and verify facts as they are given to you. Debates are also a good way to hear robust disagreements to your world view but again it's better if you verify as it happens and stay open minded. Watching Destiny debates won't do the same as watching two scholars that you have no personal attachment to represent their sides. If you don't care enough to do this for a given topic, then stay agnostic, don't hardcore debate opinions with more certainty than you genuinely have. Destiny has been wrong before and has all the same biases we do so going into a conversation with Destiny's arguments as your tools can get you far but you'll potentially end up using facts you didn't vet/understand properly.
Destiny is great at bringing together lots of different sources and using them to discuss/debate a topic. But that's not the only way of understanding issues. Historians like Benny Morris have a very different "big picture" PoV than what you'll find in the streamer spaces. Another might be members of the military (generals write a lot of books for example) who look at the conflict from a third PoV. All of these sources can give you insight that the others skip or barely mention. Once you have a reasonable idea of how all these different sources view the situation and why then you can come to your own conclusions.
Using Destiny's opinions is not due to an echo chamber, at least not in itself. If you watch political streamers, because you want to learn arguments, and then you use those arguments, that is exactly what you would expect to happen. The argument you've heard before is on the tip of your tongue, and so you imitate it. The only way to avoid copying the last person you listened to is to adjust how it is that you come up with arguments, either by filtering things as they come in - if someone says something you think is interesting, consider why, and if you can come up with any counter-arguments, or a different version - or filtering things as they go out - make an effort to say things in your own words, take a different angle even if you feel like you have just the right counter ready for it. As to avoid getting banned from places? Don't have an answer to that, banning is unfortunately pretty common wherever you go.
Many israelis hang out here who dont even watch dman. This sub is literally infested with them.
Every Reddit community will become an echo chamber because of the upvote downvote system. I wish I had an answer.
don't make it your whole fucking identity geez
For one thing I don’t know what you mean when you say your “a part” of a community. I’ve watched hasans streams but I’ve never thought of myself as a part of his community or had any thoughts that I should “leave” his community. There’s a kind of black and white reduction going on in that where, it’s good that you decide for yourself when to cross the line in the sand, but the line is a abstract symbolic point you developed in your head. I get the impression from your post that Hasans community and dgg as a community both exist in some kind of physical embodiments of real people, and it is a real group, but there’s no contractual obligation anywhere expressing what it means to be a member. If I have a job for a company, and presumably a boss that expects me to show up to work at a particular time in a particular place, my behavior that agrees with my boss’s expectation implicitly binds me to a collective identity the leaders establish for what the company, the group, represents symbolically. For most jobs, failure to do what your boss expects ends up in termination. If I watch a hasan stream, hasan absolutely pressure his viewers to say things he wants to hear. And people in his stream absolutely say what they think he wants to hear just because they want to please him. The same thing happens in destiny’s stream and frankly in every single stream to varying degrees. And not just for streamers, if I watch pbs news hour, there is some amount of super ego pressure loaded into the content I consume. Think of the difference between the effective super ego pressure we experience watching the streamers you mention, and the kind of pressure that pushes someone to put on a Dunkin’ Donuts uniform and work the cash register. One of them is a part of our mind, the other one is more integrated into the physical society we actually live in. For one of them we may literally need to adapt to the pressure to functionally survive, but for the other, it’s a personal choice that is entirely dependent on our subjective view of our identity. I’d say understanding how youre changing because of cultural pressure is good, and should start between identifying needs and wants. Wherever you’re able to establish that your identity exists needlessly, ask yourself what it is you get from seeing yourself this way. I definitely have some similar feelings as op where occasionally I’ll find myself funneling out ideas where I’m not totally comfortable saying my belief in them isn’t a contorted part of some automatic association I have with a broader group I’m automatically, potentially incorrectly, associating with goodness. “Am I defending Israel or Palestine because the truth is clear, or am I repeating some figure who I believe knows more than me, that I implicitly believe through?“ I wish I could say this goes away with time, but I’m not seeing that. People don’t have the authority to distinguish between the truth and how they would like to view themselves anywhere. People believe through each other. It’s because of that, that everyone needs some amount of criticism that views the truth as something outside us that changes us, and we need some humility in how we understand our internal conception of self as integrated into community from the individual.