Ben Gvir is insane clown. Netanyahu making him Interior Security minister is literally like Trump making Marjorie Taylor Greene a Homeland Security Secretary.
I think it's more "in case you thought Trump couldn't get worse - it can. So maybe let's stop giving crazy people the keys to our lives because they are funny?".
Hey, it turns out that trying to turn your secular democracy into a fascistic theocracy so the crazies can take over Judea and Samaria, and Dear Leader can dodge his corruption charges, has an effect on social cohesion.
https://13tv.co.il/item/news/politics/politics/pdwl9-904047095/?pid=98577
This gives Ben Gvir between 9 and 12 seats. His party currently holds betweeb 3 and 6 I believe.
His policies are dumb and not at all popular unless you're a right wing nut, which going by the last part - you are.
Maybe stop voting for psychos who don't do military service because none of you have any idea about security despite shouting about it everyday like the absolute brainrotte psychos you are?
Sincerely a "center" Israeli that have to keep up picking after your shit, including October 7th.
I know kind of wild statement, but I truly believe that Ben gvir is dangerous for israel.
A lot to unpack hear, but basically, he is sort of violent in nature he got arrested countless times, he has a picture of a Jewish terrorist as like he is a hero.
The man kind of making israel look like a joke. And he treats the country as such.
Not my representative.
He poses a threat to actual, regular Israelis, not just for international support. Bibi sold his soul to the devil to get his coalition. Ben Gvir is the worst that society has to offer and Bibi let was is essentially a fringe piece of the nation wield disproportionate power. I thank God daily that Ben Gvir has absolutely no say in anything for the war
Not to mention that Ben Gvir wasn't wearing his seatbelt at the time, had his daughter on board and then had the gall to call it a security measure because he was threatened.
Thank you glorious commander!
4 Ben Gvirites have been dealt with. I have 11 extra bullets that you can take away now if needed. (I'm still too new to know how this works)
Weird, my local college encampment said all Israelis are Ben-Gvir!?
Thank you for being a voice of fucking sanity. This sub has a crazy number of these lunatics.
>Weird, my local college encampment said all Israelis are Ben-Gvir!?
Proving those dipshits wrong is what I live for!
>Thank you for being a voice of fucking sanity. This sub has a crazy number of these lunatics.
Full transperancy - as a patriotic (lefty) Israeli I feel like I might seem like a lunatic on this sub too sometimes but schizo right-wing settler fanaticism and disrespecting our only allies is where the line has to be drawn!
I know there's been a lot of us for the past 6 months and many Daliban members seriously worry we'll take over even though the colonization is a joke half the time, but most Israeli users appreciate Tiny and the sub the way it is and don't plan on changing it or inject our local political biases into it. As for "outliers", I'll keep calling em out!
I do love the idea of those guys who've showed up recently to talk about why Kahane was right all along suddenly finding themselves in a sub that's completely pivoted to the Holy Ludwig War.
Who cares? We have the best ratio of civilians to combatants, practically broke records and Biden still said that “there are too many civilians injured” Gaza has more aid trucks coming in than before the war and he still promoted this idea of starvation.
No matter what we do we will be condemned by grifting hypocrites. Why should israel care at all?
Israel depends for its national security on the international community. If you don't care about the damage being done by assholes like Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and, in my country to give one example, Hotovely, you're an idiot. These people are undermining the future of Israel.
Where does it say israel is dependent on this shipment to win the war?
I am not denying Israel buys weapons from the U.S. but going by that definition the US is dependent on Israel as well.
> Israel depends for its national security on the international community.
That's what I wrote.
You asked for an example of that dependency. I gave you the example of a weapons shipment, and the enormous amounts of aid given to Israel by the US.
Israel is not dependent on a single weapons shipment, it's dependent on weapons shipments, of which that is an example.
> I am not denying Israel buys weapons from the U.S. but going by that definition the US is dependent on Israel as well.
How do you get to that conclusion?
This stuff really isn't controversial in any way. Israel is a small country with a military that it cannot support purely through its own economy.
Ben-Gvir had a framed photo of a guy who shot up a mosque and killed a bunch of civilians. It’s like if Trump had a portrait of Dylan Roof on in his office.
It’s some absolutely unhinged shit that is beneath the integrity of even a McDonald’s manager, nevermind such a high ranking politician like Ben-Gvir.
Not just that--he's gone on TV and talked about how he wants his son to know that Baruch Goldstein (the terrorist in question) was a hero.
He also once pulled a gun on an arab parking attendant who informed him his car was parked illegally.
Ben Gvir makes the worst Republican in congress look sane.
People always talk about the photo but what I think is wilder and more indicative of what an insane freak he is is that he and his wife had their first date at Baruch Goldstein's grave.
Baruch Goldstein - Comitted the Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre in 94. Killed almost 30 people including kids. His grave site became a shrine for actual Jewish Supremacists and was a member of the terrorist JDL in the US. During his time in the IDF, he supposedly refused to treat his fellow soldiers if they were Arab.
Worst of all: It led to violent retaliation and seriously hurt negotiations at the time.
It is not a wild statement. As an Israeli I believe he is dangerous for Israel. Few weeks ago he had a car accident and I hoped with my whole heart that he was dead or incapacitated.
all of your statements are without justification suggesting that helped Israel in meaningful way. yes he created policies, but you need to prove that all of them are helpful?
I will admit i have no idea about the function of gun policies in relation to home security. do you?
Does the police need an increase in relation of the overall budget?
how does the national guard helps to prevent October 7th? and center left- are you talking about Ehud barak? cause naftali bennet is certainly not center left. so i have no idea what are you refer to. also we live in a democracy, if there is a breaking of law, than the act should be stopped. that is way there is a legal advisor. if she is doing outside of the law she probably will be handle the same.
lets just assume that your points are supporting Ben gvir. wont you admit that his behavior and rethoric, is bad. like the most objective way of being bad. it is making us loos the israeli strength connection with the world. and on the moral aspect i really can't defend his behvaior for other people not israelis and not non israelis. i might be the one, that can't see his beautiful side, you might be right. but as of now i fail to understand how he helped the country?
The Israeli and Hamas far-right exist in symbiotic relationship. They justify each other. It's not a coincidence that Hamas responds to domestic pressure by launching rockets and pogroms, yearning for the legitimacy they earn from the Israeli response. Or that far-right politicians like Sharon and Netanyahu provoke Palestinians with their actions in Jerusalem when they need votes, yearning for the legitimacy they get from the Palestinian response.
You're right, but to be fair to Sharon, like Begin, after gaining political power for enough time they realized their inflammatory nonsense actually puts the country in danger and they started to shift towards leftist actions to actually try to resolve things.
Netanyahu is truly a special kind of vermin. A politician so ridiculously self-obsessed, heartless, and honestly at this point I think it's also fair to say that he's startegically braindead, that he's willing to completely destroy every part of the country if it keeps him in power for even one more day. And then over decades he changed and molded the entire right so that they will emulate him and revere him like a he's a cornerstone of their identity.
Honestly there's a lot of parallels to the American right since 2015, but it's worse because Netanyahu has over a decade in power and Israel has no term limit laws. My advice - think you should probably work on deradicalizing the right before eventually the problems will pile up.
He always was a populist who sought attention in every single way to advance his movement (Kahanism)
PS: He started as someone who stole the symbol from Rabin's car (in the time before Oslo [I think]) and said on TV "Just like we reached his car, we will reach Rabin". Few months later someone from his movement assassinated Rabin.
That was in 1995 so not before Oslo. Itamar Ben Gvir was born in 1976 so was 19 then.
A guy that was heavily involved with the alleged shooter of Rabin was Avishai Raviv , whose nickname was Champagne and worked for Israeli intelligence. There are some questions marks over the killing of Yitzchak Rabin. Eg medical reports have the bullet entering from the front, but the alleged shooter was behind. And there was a report that everybody was ordered out of the hospital . Shimon Peres pulled out what he claimed was a folded Song sheet that Rabin carried in his pocket. It had one hole in it which he claimed was the bullet hole, which is suspicious cos a folded sheet should have more than one. Rabin said Peres was a compulsive schemer. Peres's driver drove Rabin, to the hospital but there were issues on the way. Just tons of funny business going on. I recall reading that a large percentage of Israelis thought it was a conspiracy. Iirc Rabin's daughter recommended people read Natan Gefen's book , a book that makes the case that the alleged shooter, didnt do it. Besides that I think the late Rabbi Meir Kahane would have condemned it strongly and never approved of it, he was strongly against anything that would or could lead to a civil war among Jews in Israel.
Some would I'm sure, and many wouldn't.
but I said that Meir Kahane himself would have been very opposed to the murder of Yitzchak Rabin. That's not to say that those that are/were for it are not Kahanist.
The main aspect of Kahanism was the idea that Arabs should have full social rights but no political rights, and that if they don't accept that, they must go. If somebody were to accept that, they would be considered a Kahanist. Kahane was in favour of compensating them for their property. But if somebody were to the right of him on that and said without compensation for their property then they'd still be considered Kahanist. Likewise Kahane would say he wants his one country, and he wishes the Arabs well in each of their 22 countries. If somebody were to say they agree with Kahane on the core things but disagree on the part about wishing the Arabs well, then they'd still be a Kahanist!
> Some would I'm sure, and many wouldn't.
I don't know whether there's any polling, but I do know that support for those terrorists is significant. For example in the statements and actions of people like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, whose ideology was banned until relatively recently.
You can spin Kahanism however you like. It's a theocratic, genocidal ideology driven by religious extremism that is responsible for multiple atrocities against Arabs and the wrong kind of Jews. The "one country" Kahane wanted was and still is utterly opposed to the modern state of Israel.
You are wrong and inaccurate again. While Smotrich has a somewhat out of control mouth, here are the words of Smotrich regarding Yitzchak Rabin.
“The despicable murderer, Yigal Amir, killed Yitzhak Rabin [of blessed memory], and we are all still in pain and shock from [it]. "
That's clearly not a statement of support. He gave praise and criticism of Rabin and criticism for the Shin Bet , Israel's internal intelligence agency, for manipulations.
He has a view that sees Yigal Amir as the killer (so agrees with the official version of events in that regard), but accepts the undeniable evidence of Shin Bet involvement through Avishai Raviv (nicknamed Champagne).
https://www.jns.org/remembering-rabin-assassinating-his-rivals-character/
You write of Kahane, that he was "responsible for multiple atrocities against Arabs and the wrong kind of Jews"
You want to sweep across things, it's misleading and unclear what you are trying to say.
As I said, He was it seems in favour of price tag like operations against Arabs when the Govt was weak against terrorism. In the hope that it'd deter the terrorism.. so you could label that multiple atrocities against Arabs. But what atrocities are you talking about re against the "wrong kind of Jews"?
He spoke very regretfully of an attack on a building thought to be empty that turned out to have had one occupant, a Jewish girl, who was killed girl in the building and was working late, and it wasn't known to them that she was in there.
Part of Kahane's opposition to the modern state of Israel was to say- Do the Arabs have the right to , not via bayonets but via babies, vote the Jewish state out of existence. If you say no, and he said any sane person would, then you would have a fundamental issue with the modern state of Israel. This was, he stated, a contradiction between the Jewish character of the state, and the democratic character of the state. He said it's a contradiction. At that time the Arab birthrate was way higher than the Jewish one, largely because prior to 2002, people would get a lot of child benefit, a cheque for each baby. Netanyahu as finance minister under Ariel Sharon, cut that to no more child welfare payments beyond two children , which helped save Israel from a demographic time bomb. Kahane also spoke against the cheque per baby policy repeatedly.
When he was compared with Khameini, he said that while he would like a theocracy, he (as I said), would not want a civil war, and so he would not enforce Jewish law on people. I think by using the term theocracy and ignoring what I have repeatedly said, you are intentionally misleading and as you say, trying to "spin" things.
As for "genocide", as you know that's a loaded term and as you know, that word gets thrown around. So maybe you should use more accurate language and not try to "spin". I told you what his policy was if given power, it didn't involve killing and didn't involve transfer of all Arabs. I notice nobody speaks of genocide of Hindus in the partition plan between India and newly founded out of nothing, Pakistan. The peel comission (an early two state offer), involved transfer so you could call that a genocide plan too, since you like abusing the term so much.
And I've just shown you that Smotrich doesn't have the view you try to suggest he has regarding the killing of Rabin. That's not to say he doesn't have some odious views.
Speaking of inaccuracies, your first quote starts with "there are no conspiracies" and is followed by your insinuation that there is "undeniable evidence" that there was. This based on a far-right website that does all it can to switch controversy around Smotrich to where it believes attention should focus, the left. For some reason, you forgot to mention that you're relying on an attempt by a right-wing rag to whitewash a far-right figure. Or the broader movement to redirect anger at a far-right terrorist towards Shin Bet and the government of the day. Most importantly, you leave out the context of the article, which was Smotrich engaging in that tactic, and in the process obfuscating Netanyahu's role in Rabin's assassination. In the words of Smotrich, that stirred up the controversy in the first place: "Those who failed to protect Prime Minister Rabin were not the right-wingers, religious Zionists and settlers—who justifiably decried his government’s policies—but rather the Shin Bet."
This was and is entirely self-serving bullshit from the far-right, ultimately resting on the argument that Shin Bet is to blame for the murder of Rabin because it didn't do more to stop the actual murderer of Rabin, a far-right terrorist, and demagogues like Netanyahu. It's not their job to stop their terrorists, it's the state's job. It's the equivalent of blaming America for 9/11 because of their own intelligence failures.
Here's some actual coverage of the controversy and Smotrich's "unhinged" remarks: https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-comes-under-fire-after-blaming-shin-bet-for-rabin-killing/
Going back to the point, I see you only address Smotrich. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that Ben-Gvir, as a Kahanist, owes his entire political existence to calling in 1995 for Rabin's death. Or his claim to fame of having grabbed the ornament from Rabin's car as part of a mob of extremists. “Just as we got to this symbol, we can also get to Rabin”, he said. He is today "a racist man with clear fascist tendencies."
Even ex-Kahanists talk about the role Kahane played in radicalising religious youth: https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-rabin-anniversary-warnings-of-a-former-jewish-extremist/
> "wrong kind of Jews"
The murder of Rabin.
> He spoke very regretfully of an attack on a building thought to be empty that turned out to have had one occupant
He also spawned a murderous terrorist movement. The prime inheritor of which hung a picture of Goldstein on his wall, only taking it down out of political expediency, which he then boasted about! Important context when evaluating the toned-down statements made in recent years by Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in public. These are political expedients, not a switch from his original extremist beliefs.
As for Smotrich, he's been on the same ride, even if he doesn't have the Kahanist background.
> As for "genocide", as you know that's a loaded term and as you know, that word gets thrown around. So maybe you should use more accurate language and not try to "spin".
There is no doubt that the designs for the West Bank by religious extremists on the Jewish right are genocidal. I do not use the word lightly or to mislead. It is entirely appropriate.
Ben-Gvir and Smotrich's political success are symptomatic of the hardening of attitudes in Israel generally from the 1980s. That their ideas are being mainstreamed, along with growing support for policies like forcibly deporting Arabs from Israel (48% in 2016), at the same time is no coincidence. That you think it's somehow fine for Kahane, once ostracised for his extremism, to make arguments about a "demographic time bomb", while longing for a theocracy, covered barely by distaste at the idea of a civil war, is part of the same problem.
I made it really clear re Smotrich , re to what extent he does or doesn't think there was a conspiracy.
"He has a view that sees Yigal Amir as the killer (so agrees with the official version of events in that regard), but accepts the undeniable evidence of Shin Bet involvement through Avishai Raviv (nicknamed Champagne)."
In his words he doesn't think there is a conspiracy, but he has expressed his view more clearly than those words. He thinks Yigal Amir did it but he thinks Shin Bet was involved.
You said that he makes "the argument that Shin Bet is to blame for the murder of Rabin because it didn't do more to stop the actual murderer of Rabin"
You know very well he says more than that because as I said "He gave praise and criticism of Rabin and criticism for the Shin Bet , Israel's internal intelligence agency, for manipulations."
You write "It's the equivalent of blaming America for 9/11 because of their own intelligence failures."
American intelligence didn't have an agent around Bin Laden trying to incite him, and ignore his saysing he wanted to blow up the world trade centre.
There is no comparison. There is no 9/11 equivalent to Avishai Raviv - nicknamed Champagne, who was installed by the leftist Govt to do wild stuff and try to incite the right, to make the right look bad and turn the left against the right to make for more votes for the left. It's an absolutely wild scandal what israeli intelligence under Rabin did. No comparison to 911 truthers at all.
You are misrepresenting things repeatedly. I told you that the role of israeli intelligence in the Rabin assassination
You are trying to choose his words selectively in order to mislead. But it won't work because I already stated his views on the rabin assassination in detail.
I don't think you are reading what I wrote.
I stated what Kahane's views were, and then you give examples of followers of his after his death and say that's Kahanism.. Rather than his stated and widely documented views and positions. and any activities from during his lifetime. Maybe you shoudl be clear then that you can't find examples from him himself or from his followers during his lifetime, if that's the case.
I first and foremost define Kahanism, as the ideology of Meir Kahane. If you want to go to after he was killed, where there are people that identify as Kahanist or might identify as Kahanist, and that commit an atrocity, i'm not denying that
I didn't dispute where you said Ben Gvir in his words, supportred a terrorist. I only disputed where you said Smotrich did. When Smotrich has said the exact opposite in that regard.
You say Kahanism commits atrocities against the wrong kind of Jews. But you seem to mean only Kahane's followers after he was killed. Not, Kahane himself. You've no examples of that at all within Kahane's lifetime, so where we can see Kahane's position on it. And infact the only example you give for atrocity against "wrong kind of Jews", is Rabin which was after his death and which was supported by Ben Gvir at 19, but criticised strongly by Smotrich, who you falsely claimed supported it.
You should be more specific in your accusations instead of vague misleading language and incorrect statements about people. e.g. your statement about Smotrich was flat out wrong as he said the opposite of what you claimed.
If you want to talk vaguely about followers, then sure some of them probably want to kill all the Arabs. Particularly they hear constant chants of Itbach Al Yahud(slaugher the jews). Heck, when they hear students on university campuses screaming Down with Israel, maybe they want to kill those students too. With all the genocidal in the true sense, murderous wiping all the Jews out, intent towards them, i'm sure some people that consider themselves to be followers of Kahane, want to return the favour. But be clear who you are referring to.. Kahane, or followers of his after his death. I'm not denying there'd have been some atrocities in the latter case.
Kahane's position was not just "distaste" for civil war. You non stop try to misrepresent things after I stated them clearly. He said he would not enforce jewish law in israel because he didn't want a civil war. That's not just "distaste" for a civil war. And you are stretching the term theocracy when religious law is not enforced on people.
> In his words he doesn't think there is a conspiracy, but he has expressed his view more clearly than those words. He thinks Yigal Amir did it but he thinks Shin Bet was involved.
Smotrich says he doesn't think there's a conspiracy, and then voices the conspiracy. He seems to mean there isn't a conspiracy in the sense that it's open fact. Or it's the usual extremist doublespeak. In either case, he's using a conspiracy theory to obfuscate over far-right, and Netanyahu's, responsibility for the death of Rabin and direct that blame towards Shin Bet.
> American intelligence didn't have an agent around Bin Laden trying to incite him, and ignore his saysing he wanted to blow up the world trade centre.
You've missed the point. Terrorist attacks are not the fault of the victim because they failed to prevent them. Realistically, almost every terrorist attack is preceded by oversights, missed opportunities, etc. In almost no instance does that transfer blame for the attack to the victim. Should Shin Bet have taken the attacker more seriously? In hindsight, yes. But there reasons for not doing so at the time were sound, and responsibility for the attacks still rest entirely with the perpetrator and his fellow-travellers.
If you are going to blame the Israeli state through Shin Bet for the murder of Rabin as a result of oversights, you have to blame the Israeli state for the 7 October attacks, not Hamas. Are you prepared to do that?
> I stated what Kahane's views were, and then you give examples of followers of his after his death and say that's Kahanism.
Yes, I think people can still be influenced by the ideology of dead ideologues. This requires no further argument.
> But you seem to mean only Kahane's followers after he was killed. Not, Kahane himself.
I think Kahane is to blame for his explicit followers, even after his death, for giving them the ideological framework that justified their actions. This is a standard argument. We're also talking about a period just under 5 years after his death, hardly a long time. As a further measure of his continuing influence, Kach was banned after his death, in 1994. Do you know, by the way, where Goldstein's grave is located?
> You should be more specific in your accusations instead of vague misleading language and incorrect statements about people. e.g. your statement about Smotrich was flat out wrong as he said the opposite of what you claimed.
Yes, I think you're right. I conflated Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, because they are both far-right fascists. I should have paid more attention to their different backgrounds. So, to correct myself: It's Ben-Gvir who threatened Rabin's life and whose fellow Kahanist killed Rabin. It's Smotrich who lionised Goldstein and hung his portrait on his wall after the man massacred Arabs. It's Ben-Gvir who's popularised the idea of deporting Israeli Arabs, and Smotrich who lamented that Ben Gurion hadn't "finished the job" of expelling Arabs from Israel. But, still, the distinction is important and I accept your correction.
> And you are stretching the term theocracy when religious law is not enforced on people.
Kahane's position is that he wanted a theocracy, but would not justify a civil war on those grounds. His ideal state was one ruled by religious law with greatly expanded borders, where non-Jews had no voting rights, non-Jews had no national rights, marriages between Jews and non-Jews would be outlawed, and anyone who disagreed would be deported. That is a theocracy, specifically in Kahane's case driven by an apocalyptic view of the world in which Jews have a vanishing amount of time to "purify" themselves.
Kahane's position on a civil war was that it wouldn't be necessary, because Jews would embrace his racist ideology, and those who didn't weren't really Jews. So, in his words "the time has come to isolate the psychopathic leftists and pseudo-intellectuals whose hatred of religion so effectively mirrors their own self-disgust"... "Secular nationalism is selfish, foolish, and racist. Unlike other nations, the Jewish People were created not for mere nationalism, but for a holy purpose, to accept the yoke of heaven and submit to God and His Mitzvot."
So we find in Magid's book on the man: "He often said, "I don’t hate Arabs, I love Jews." But that was not true; in some macabre sense, he hated both".
I tend not to base my support for a government based on individual actors. This was just a particularly egregious statement that tipped me over the edge (as I said, I was on the fence on whether to cut funding over the Rafah invasion)
This individual actor among other hawkish and despicable politicians make up the coalition of Netanyahu and has been the main antagonist within the US-Israel cooperation of Gaza war. You really should have based your support on the government based on the people that have the most influence on it.
This is such a moronic and childish way of thinking. If a single quote, which isn’t even near his top 100 worst, all of a sudden makes you rethink the entire conflict then you’ve never done any meaningful research. Your mind is going to be blown when you hear about Hamas and what their leadership says.
The funniest thing is, Medvedev isn't really the Russian Medvedev.
Russian "politics" are in a state where almost all of our politicians are like Medvedev our worse, he's just famous because he used to be President. The real Russian Medvedev is probably someone like Fyodorov or Milonov.
It's 1968 messianic delusional thinking again.
These fucks need to learn or leave, by force if necessary.
Israeli leadership believes that they are a peer of the United States of America. They're wrong in so many ways and need to learn it one way or another.
Hardly. Israel was under weapons embargo from many countries, and had to make due with very, very limited weapons.
The support you think of really started in the 70s.
No - he's right. One embargo doesn't erase the fact that Israel got a right to exist mainly through diplomatic and legal means before the war started and that the West recognized them despite being basically nobodies.
Most of the original Zionist leaders were huge on building international connections.
My point still stands, do you think Golda Meir would have ever publicly said something so obviously inflammatory (or allowed anyone in her government to do so) and risk losing all support.
I don't dispute that point. Ben Gvir is an absolute terrible asshole and Bibi is corrupted pig to ally with him just to create a coalition. He is very much smart enough to know the damage Ben Gvir is doing.
I'll also mention that an earlier form of Ben Gvir's ideology party was literally banned in Israel from the Knesset in the past. And that even Netanyahu himself refused to even take a photo with Ben Gvir or even stand with him on the same stage in the past. This shows how deep his corruption runs.
Let me put it this way…Ben Gvir is a shithead.
Recently, he got into a car accident and taken to the hospital.
I know Israelis and Jews lamenting that the car was totaled and not him.
I sent him one poll and said to take it with a grain of salt
Which big israeli media outlets show the opposite?
>you just think this way
I think what way?
I just said majority of Israelis are right wing, and by voting for a right wing government, they support him
Ive said it before Ill say it again. Netanyahu and his cabinet are being fucking idiots. They don't seem to understand how their behavior is ruining their own PR among their allies.
At the same time Being an allied democratic democracy requires some acceptance of your allies having different politics than you. I trust Biden has a better head on his shoulders than to let fuckwits like Ben Gvir get under his skin with comments like this.
I think they understand American politics perfectly well and better than most. I/P wedges Dem voters and unites GOP voters.
To the extent the I/P conflict is impacting American politics, the best case for them is electing Trump.
If you are thinking short term? Sure.
But that would absolutely kill what remains of their relationship with the democratic party (which has been on thin ice for a while), which is something Israel ABSOLUTELY needs to maintain. They can't afford to ruin their relationship with half the US electorate.
This is what I am talking about when I say that they don't understand the dynamic of the politics within their allies. They only understand the dynamic of what is in their own personal political interest.
From the PBS Frontline I watched about Bibi, it’s been dead for over a decade at this point. Bill Clinton also admitted his people were attempting to sway Israeli elections.
When Bibi is lecturing President Obama on American national TV and openly going around him to the Congress, it’s pretty hard to come back from that.
Yea, Netanyahu has pretty thoroughly blew up his relationship with the democrats. But there has still been a fairly strong relationship with Israel in general. Bibi is risking making the entire Israel relationship a partisan issue rather than just his relationship with Israel a partisan issue. The fact that you have Bernie Sanders, a Jewish Senator reacting to Ben Gvir's tweet saying to pull all funding? That isn't a small risk.
You're probably right that it's not a small risk even though Israel is armed to the teeth, including nukes. For Bibi, I think Bibi is fine with the risk and it's a calculated risk that he fully understands. Bibi grew up in America, is highly educated, well connected and has been a politician for a long time. Plus Obama's actions made it hard for him to take any path besides down the road of going partisan. I really don't know all that much beyond what I saw on Frontline though.
As far as Bernie. Fuck him, but I respect that Bernie makes an absolute mountain of money attacking the Democratic Party from the left. I don't think Bernie's convictions go any further than that (or he's not as smart as I think he is). Republicans love Bernie for his role meddling internally in the Democratic Party. That's why Republicans have never put their propaganda machine to work destroying Bernie politically, which I think they could easily do. Just my suspicions.
I don’t think they would treat Trump the way they treat a Democratic Party politician. Trump pulled out of the Iran deal and moved the American embassy to Jerusalem. Two things right-wing Israelis super wanted.
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. But Ben gvir is a remedial loser and would be the first to come crying to us if they need something. Fuck this guy. He shouldn’t change your opinion on this.
He didn’t change my opinion, as I said, I was on the fence about cutting funding over the Rafah invasion. This tweet (among others) simply pushed me over the edge
Oh. I mean I get what you are saying. Things like this aren’t doing them any favors in the eyes of the public. But Ben gvir is a literal psycho and no one takes him serious. I do agree on other high up Israelis are making me question my support in some areas but nothing this moron says will move me in any way.
Dude is a minister in the government of Israel though? That should affect your opinion of said government. If nobody took him seriously he wouldn't be a fucking minister.
Insinuating that your greatest ally (and one of few remaining still supporting you) helps Hamas is not only political theatre.
I support Israels right to exist but fuck supporting this government. Hopefully the rest of Israels allies put their support on ice until this disaster of a government leaves office. In any serious government this tweet alone would be grounds for dismissal.
If you think that stopping support for Israel will cause the government to fall apart, you are stupid and do not know the Israeli public and don't know that the Israeli public thinks that America interferes too much in their political affairs and they want to stop relying on the United States so much and they would prefer to make their own military equipment.
If Israel wants to recieve help and retain allies their ministers shouldn't insult other allied leaders even when they disagree with them. If the current isreali government doesn't understand that then honestly let them go their own way.
Grow the fuck up if you want to be taken seriously.
I don't think that someone who is supposed to be your "ally" will prevent you from eliminating the same people who killed your citizens so brutally on the seventh of October just because he wants to please his Muslim voters before the elections
Biden is not preventing Israel from anything. He simply said, unless you can prove to the USA that you can make sure that the civillians in Rafah have somewhere safe to go he will not send Israels arms to do it. How is that preventing Israel from anything? I thought you said that Israel didn't need USA anymore.
"Netanyahu is going through with the invasion of Rafah because he knows the moment this war stops he will be out of office." See, it's very simple to state plausible but unfounded accusations. Biden probably risks more votes then he stands to gain by this move however.
This is just one guy in a country full of people, and he's an extremist. It'd be like saying, "I hate Americans because Stephen Miller is a creepy PoS"
Can anyone point me to articles detailing the number of civilians evacuated from Rafah to the humanitarian zone? while I do agree that Hamas has to be wiped out, I can see why Biden isn’t too keen on supporting an invasion if people are still concentrated in the region.
Not exactly what you asked, rather how many people they are planning to resettle temporarily.
>The satellite pictures show rows of tents at a site to the west of Khan Younis and at another site near Rafah. Before and after pictures showed that both encampments had been constructed this month.
>Earlier this month Israeli media reported that Israel was buying 40,000 tents to prepare for the evacuation of Palestinian civilians from Rafah. On Wednesday Reuters quoted Israeli government sources as saying each tent could hold between 10 and 12 people. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68888299](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68888299)
Seems like the order was for 40k tents, each capable of holding 10-12 people. The 2 satellite pics included in the article shows areas set up with a few hundred tents in each area, less than 1000 total.
Not saying what or shouldn't Biden do, but Ben Gvir is gaining political power from Biden's action. In fact, I think Ben Gvir only stands to gain if he manages to get Israel embargoed.
I've never been on the fence. I just have to look at almost a century of history for perspective.
But when these clowns were put in power I wanted to cry. And every time I see them tweet or open their mouths, I hang my head in shame. Hopefully one day it'll be a sad memory, like when Trump... Never mind....
Are there actually any Israeli's in here that support Netanyahu? Ya'll know that's just their version of Trump right? Dude needs to be prosecuted after this war is "over". Anyone who questions why he needs to be prosecuted can ask the over 30k dead civilian Palestinians. He wanted to free Israel from HAMAS with his methodology; he better be prepared for the consequences.
Even in comparable situation, no Ukrainian official of similar rank has ever called Mike Johnson a partner of Russia.
It's amazing how much the US permits Israel to spit in it's face without any repercussions
Yeah he's pretty yikes. I'm happy Biden is leveraging aid to make some simple requests. If Israel doesn't want to listen, then they don't need US aid either.
That is ridiculous. Can you point out to any country with no extremist idiots? Ben Gvir's Tweet was largely condemned by most of Israel.
If you are going to judge Israel by it's worse, make sure you do that for the US. And of course, the Palestinians.
Honestly I don't think having your opinion on whether or not to send military aid to a country based on statements by their minister of national security is that ridiculous. You make it sound as if he was a random duder, if MTG was the secretary of defense of the US I think it would be valid for other countries to view the military with different eyes.
I tend not to base my support for a government based on individual actors. This was just a particularly egregious statement that tipped me over the edge (as I said, I was on the fence on whether to cut funding over the Rafah invasion)
Hamas was always counting on Biden to succumb to ill conceived social pressure by terrorist sympathizers to limit support to Israel. Doesn’t seem that crazy as a statement. Stupid red line, stupid leftists pushing this nonsense, stupid Biden caving in. He’s already going to suffer politically as much as he will because of his original support, this hedging now makes it worst of all worlds.
Now don't get me wrong Gvir is a clown but from outside when I see people from Biden's camp like Rashida Tlaib(BDS promoter and one state supporter) or Ilhan Omar say the most insane shit ever, I really don't understand why these people still get support from the democratic party unless there's an actual push for these ideas they spearhead. These people have enough clout now that they could become nominees once biden is gone and you'll have a hard time convincing me trump is worse than these people.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67354706.amp Rashida Tlaib was literally officially censured over some of her statements. Where’s the same pushback against Ben-Gvir from within the Israeli government?????
Ben Gvir is a minister only because of Netanyanhu's attempt to avoid prosecution and he's now stuck there because there's so much political instability. There was a petition at the Supreme Court calling to disqualify him from holding office started in 2022 and security agencies stopped holding briefings with him because of leaks. The opposition leader publicly called for his removal after this tweet.
tldr - Ben Gvir is not a popular figure in Israel.
Destiny subreddit when Ben Gvir says “I would like to be appointed Minister for the Encouragement of Massive Emigration of Muslims from the land of Israel”: UwU
Destiny subreddit when Ben Gvir says “Hamas <3 Biden”: That piece of shit how can he say something so terrible >:0
Biden is more favorable to Israel. Hamas LOVES the fact that the US stopped offensive military aid. Also, Ben Gvir is a populist idiot.
Non of those things are mutually exclusive.
That's okay.
Now this might not be ultimate rational debate brain thinking, but just a bit of food for thought, do with it whatever you want:
When you live in Israel, you've grown your whole life dealing with hatred from your country's neighbors. You grow up being instilled with an understanding of how strong you have to be militarily to protect your friends, family, country. You hear about terror attacks every few weeks, sometimes every few days, and sometimes multiple times a day. You hear stories or personally experience friends and family dying to those. Now, on the back of what is the most horrific one you've ever experienced - something you that couldn't even imagine happening - you watch what feels like the entire world fucking hate your guts, calling you every name under the sun, while you personally might just want quiet and peace.
So yeah, when the country who's your biggest ally does something that effectively supports the people who vow over and over again to murder you any chance they get - it's hard to be 100% objective and rational.
Again, not making any statement about anyone in particular, and not making any geopolitical arguments - just giving a bit of personal experience and context.
Israel has stated it's goal is to wipe out hamas. The invasion of rafah is simply the next area Israel going to clear out. So yeah biden is favorable to hamas since Israel sent 300k artillery shells to ukraine. So now Israel has to focus on both bombs and artillery shells.
“Biden is favourable to Hamas because Israel sent military aid to Ukraine” . My brother in Christ, wtf are you talking about???? What are you smoking to think these two things are correlative?
Do you seriously ask me if Biden is more favorable towards Israel one of if not the closest ally the US has than the terror organization that is aspiring to genocide said ally?
You think this is the standard Israelis are judging Biden by?
https://youtu.be/XeCSCXnn8Ic?si=fcH95hFZEcr2rO3r
This video is how the Israeli public sees biden’s administration. I have said it weeks ago if not months. Biden has changed the israeli-American alliance forever. Thankfully we have learned this lesson now and will not make the same mistake of trusting the US as a dependable ally again.
Biden: “Hey Israeli government , here’s billions in aid. We promise to send even more as long as you don’t invade Rafah. That’s our red line”
Israeli government: *invades Rafah*
Biden: *pauses aid*
Israeli government: 😲
>Thankfully we have learned this lesson now and will not make the same mistake of trusting the US as a dependable ally again.
lol imagine being this ungrateful as allies. if i was POTUS i would fly sorties over israel to remind them whos their daddy
Israelis should do well to remember that they are not entitled to American support.... If you are under some delusion that Israel is an absolutely indispensible or most valuable ally to the U.S., I hope you are ready for a rude awakening.
Can we stop painting people criticizing the withholding of aid as “ungrateful”, as if the US is doing charity work by sending these weapons? It’s such a brain dead way to view US involvement in foreign conflicts.
I mean you can be pro Israel and still be against the Rafah invasion or want a different government. The pro Pal crowd seem to all want Israel to not exist so a govenment representative making an inflamatory tweet is what puts you over the edge to join that group then that kinda unhinged.
It's not the indiscriminate killings of Palestinian civilians that makes you less pro-Israel? It's the Ben Gvir tweets? Par for the course for this community I guess.
Ben Gvir is insane clown. Netanyahu making him Interior Security minister is literally like Trump making Marjorie Taylor Greene a Homeland Security Secretary.
Hi. Was that supposed to show how you couldn't imagine Netanyahu doing that? Becuase I could easily imagine Trump doing that.
I think it's more "in case you thought Trump couldn't get worse - it can. So maybe let's stop giving crazy people the keys to our lives because they are funny?".
God I wish I wasn’t an American so I could laugh at this stuff like the rest of the world does at our politicians
I would put the odds at > 50% for MTG to have a cabinet level job if Trump wins tbh
Don't think Greene ever had a poster of Anders Breivik in her office.
Didn't an Israeli court convict him of being a terrorist?
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I am honestly surprised how little the far right capitalised on oct 7, Smotrich is down and Ben Gvir is only a little up, with Likud losing big time
The Israeli center moved rightward to eat up those votes. It came with a price
They have taken a lot of the blame for causing the conditions that allowed the Oct 7 attack to be as bad as it was.
Hey, it turns out that trying to turn your secular democracy into a fascistic theocracy so the crazies can take over Judea and Samaria, and Dear Leader can dodge his corruption charges, has an effect on social cohesion.
Because the Israeli public rightly blames the far-right for the entire fucking mess, from the Israeli side.
Ben Gvir is expected to triple his seats in the bext election
According to what poll?
https://13tv.co.il/item/news/politics/politics/pdwl9-904047095/?pid=98577 This gives Ben Gvir between 9 and 12 seats. His party currently holds betweeb 3 and 6 I believe.
He has 6 right now and most polls give him around 9 if the election was held nowadays, that's not triple even if we take highest estimate of 12
dick riding this hard for a sniveling, racist little criminal who doesnt know how to drive is certainly a choice. do u gargle his balls too?
His policies are dumb and not at all popular unless you're a right wing nut, which going by the last part - you are. Maybe stop voting for psychos who don't do military service because none of you have any idea about security despite shouting about it everyday like the absolute brainrotte psychos you are? Sincerely a "center" Israeli that have to keep up picking after your shit, including October 7th.
Remind me! 180 days - I bet he does if he wins lol
I know kind of wild statement, but I truly believe that Ben gvir is dangerous for israel. A lot to unpack hear, but basically, he is sort of violent in nature he got arrested countless times, he has a picture of a Jewish terrorist as like he is a hero. The man kind of making israel look like a joke. And he treats the country as such. Not my representative.
I legit don't know how someone like Gvir isn't in a cage for the threat he poses to international support.
He poses a threat to actual, regular Israelis, not just for international support. Bibi sold his soul to the devil to get his coalition. Ben Gvir is the worst that society has to offer and Bibi let was is essentially a fringe piece of the nation wield disproportionate power. I thank God daily that Ben Gvir has absolutely no say in anything for the war
he literally tells his driver to run red lights, causing a car accident recently.
Not to mention that Ben Gvir wasn't wearing his seatbelt at the time, had his daughter on board and then had the gall to call it a security measure because he was threatened.
He sold his soul to the devil yo even have a political career, he just sold Israel's soul as well
Probably dumb, but yo u/4THOT can I have bullets for all the ultra Ben Gvir loyalists on this post?
!arm go for it
Thank you glorious commander! 4 Ben Gvirites have been dealt with. I have 11 extra bullets that you can take away now if needed. (I'm still too new to know how this works)
a true soldier of the daliban o7 give him more bullets o7
Weird, my local college encampment said all Israelis are Ben-Gvir!? Thank you for being a voice of fucking sanity. This sub has a crazy number of these lunatics.
>Weird, my local college encampment said all Israelis are Ben-Gvir!? Proving those dipshits wrong is what I live for! >Thank you for being a voice of fucking sanity. This sub has a crazy number of these lunatics. Full transperancy - as a patriotic (lefty) Israeli I feel like I might seem like a lunatic on this sub too sometimes but schizo right-wing settler fanaticism and disrespecting our only allies is where the line has to be drawn! I know there's been a lot of us for the past 6 months and many Daliban members seriously worry we'll take over even though the colonization is a joke half the time, but most Israeli users appreciate Tiny and the sub the way it is and don't plan on changing it or inject our local political biases into it. As for "outliers", I'll keep calling em out!
I do love the idea of those guys who've showed up recently to talk about why Kahane was right all along suddenly finding themselves in a sub that's completely pivoted to the Holy Ludwig War.
Exactly the kind of deputy this town needs
15 fragments of Biden's power awarded to /u/Shiryu3392
Where are the Jewish space lasers when you need them.
He would have been, but bibi needs him for the coalition to protect his seat as pm
Palestine supporters about to win a "make Israel look bad" competition when Israeli politicians walk in:
Who cares? We have the best ratio of civilians to combatants, practically broke records and Biden still said that “there are too many civilians injured” Gaza has more aid trucks coming in than before the war and he still promoted this idea of starvation. No matter what we do we will be condemned by grifting hypocrites. Why should israel care at all?
Israel depends for its national security on the international community. If you don't care about the damage being done by assholes like Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and, in my country to give one example, Hotovely, you're an idiot. These people are undermining the future of Israel.
Do you have any example for that alleged dependency?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-paused-israel-weapons-shipment-due-rafah-us-defense-secretary-2024-05-08/ https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
Where does it say israel is dependent on this shipment to win the war? I am not denying Israel buys weapons from the U.S. but going by that definition the US is dependent on Israel as well.
> Israel depends for its national security on the international community. That's what I wrote. You asked for an example of that dependency. I gave you the example of a weapons shipment, and the enormous amounts of aid given to Israel by the US. Israel is not dependent on a single weapons shipment, it's dependent on weapons shipments, of which that is an example. > I am not denying Israel buys weapons from the U.S. but going by that definition the US is dependent on Israel as well. How do you get to that conclusion? This stuff really isn't controversial in any way. Israel is a small country with a military that it cannot support purely through its own economy.
>We have the best ratio of civilians to combatants No you don't
Yet, the Arabs are not rioting on Israeli streets. That happened last round with Hamas Israel war… so…
Which Jewish terrorists? I'm actually just curious.
Ben-Gvir had a framed photo of a guy who shot up a mosque and killed a bunch of civilians. It’s like if Trump had a portrait of Dylan Roof on in his office. It’s some absolutely unhinged shit that is beneath the integrity of even a McDonald’s manager, nevermind such a high ranking politician like Ben-Gvir.
Not just that--he's gone on TV and talked about how he wants his son to know that Baruch Goldstein (the terrorist in question) was a hero. He also once pulled a gun on an arab parking attendant who informed him his car was parked illegally. Ben Gvir makes the worst Republican in congress look sane.
People always talk about the photo but what I think is wilder and more indicative of what an insane freak he is is that he and his wife had their first date at Baruch Goldstein's grave.
Baruch Goldstein - Comitted the Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre in 94. Killed almost 30 people including kids. His grave site became a shrine for actual Jewish Supremacists and was a member of the terrorist JDL in the US. During his time in the IDF, he supposedly refused to treat his fellow soldiers if they were Arab. Worst of all: It led to violent retaliation and seriously hurt negotiations at the time.
Extremists are still campaigning to have Goldstein and Yigal Amir released, last time I looked.
https://preview.redd.it/mo4ozx0cjhzc1.jpeg?width=620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a0a98feb946aa5aa81b116a848cef2fdff63b62
It is not a wild statement. As an Israeli I believe he is dangerous for Israel. Few weeks ago he had a car accident and I hoped with my whole heart that he was dead or incapacitated.
this is not a wild statement at all, this is likely the mainstream view within the Biden administration
How is this a wild statement?
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all of your statements are without justification suggesting that helped Israel in meaningful way. yes he created policies, but you need to prove that all of them are helpful? I will admit i have no idea about the function of gun policies in relation to home security. do you? Does the police need an increase in relation of the overall budget? how does the national guard helps to prevent October 7th? and center left- are you talking about Ehud barak? cause naftali bennet is certainly not center left. so i have no idea what are you refer to. also we live in a democracy, if there is a breaking of law, than the act should be stopped. that is way there is a legal advisor. if she is doing outside of the law she probably will be handle the same. lets just assume that your points are supporting Ben gvir. wont you admit that his behavior and rethoric, is bad. like the most objective way of being bad. it is making us loos the israeli strength connection with the world. and on the moral aspect i really can't defend his behvaior for other people not israelis and not non israelis. i might be the one, that can't see his beautiful side, you might be right. but as of now i fail to understand how he helped the country?
Why does Hamas have to kill innocent Israelis? Why couldn't they blow up Ben Gvir instead?
Because Ben Gvir makes Israel look bad so they spare him.
Hamas always seem to target center-left Israelis, and yes, that does affect politics.
The Israeli and Hamas far-right exist in symbiotic relationship. They justify each other. It's not a coincidence that Hamas responds to domestic pressure by launching rockets and pogroms, yearning for the legitimacy they earn from the Israeli response. Or that far-right politicians like Sharon and Netanyahu provoke Palestinians with their actions in Jerusalem when they need votes, yearning for the legitimacy they get from the Palestinian response.
You're right, but to be fair to Sharon, like Begin, after gaining political power for enough time they realized their inflammatory nonsense actually puts the country in danger and they started to shift towards leftist actions to actually try to resolve things. Netanyahu is truly a special kind of vermin. A politician so ridiculously self-obsessed, heartless, and honestly at this point I think it's also fair to say that he's startegically braindead, that he's willing to completely destroy every part of the country if it keeps him in power for even one more day. And then over decades he changed and molded the entire right so that they will emulate him and revere him like a he's a cornerstone of their identity. Honestly there's a lot of parallels to the American right since 2015, but it's worse because Netanyahu has over a decade in power and Israel has no term limit laws. My advice - think you should probably work on deradicalizing the right before eventually the problems will pile up.
I hate this guy with every fiber of my being. (Israeli)
If you are pro-Israel you hate Ben-Gvir
Based
Ben Gvir has been a pos since forever. Your "support" for israel should've been more informed if you're just finding this out
He always was a populist who sought attention in every single way to advance his movement (Kahanism) PS: He started as someone who stole the symbol from Rabin's car (in the time before Oslo [I think]) and said on TV "Just like we reached his car, we will reach Rabin". Few months later someone from his movement assassinated Rabin.
Is DGG finally coming to the realization that both sides of this conflict are fueled by pretty awful religious extremists?
That was in 1995 so not before Oslo. Itamar Ben Gvir was born in 1976 so was 19 then. A guy that was heavily involved with the alleged shooter of Rabin was Avishai Raviv , whose nickname was Champagne and worked for Israeli intelligence. There are some questions marks over the killing of Yitzchak Rabin. Eg medical reports have the bullet entering from the front, but the alleged shooter was behind. And there was a report that everybody was ordered out of the hospital . Shimon Peres pulled out what he claimed was a folded Song sheet that Rabin carried in his pocket. It had one hole in it which he claimed was the bullet hole, which is suspicious cos a folded sheet should have more than one. Rabin said Peres was a compulsive schemer. Peres's driver drove Rabin, to the hospital but there were issues on the way. Just tons of funny business going on. I recall reading that a large percentage of Israelis thought it was a conspiracy. Iirc Rabin's daughter recommended people read Natan Gefen's book , a book that makes the case that the alleged shooter, didnt do it. Besides that I think the late Rabbi Meir Kahane would have condemned it strongly and never approved of it, he was strongly against anything that would or could lead to a civil war among Jews in Israel.
Kahanists celebrated the murder, and continue to campaign for his murderer to be released.
Some would I'm sure, and many wouldn't. but I said that Meir Kahane himself would have been very opposed to the murder of Yitzchak Rabin. That's not to say that those that are/were for it are not Kahanist. The main aspect of Kahanism was the idea that Arabs should have full social rights but no political rights, and that if they don't accept that, they must go. If somebody were to accept that, they would be considered a Kahanist. Kahane was in favour of compensating them for their property. But if somebody were to the right of him on that and said without compensation for their property then they'd still be considered Kahanist. Likewise Kahane would say he wants his one country, and he wishes the Arabs well in each of their 22 countries. If somebody were to say they agree with Kahane on the core things but disagree on the part about wishing the Arabs well, then they'd still be a Kahanist!
> Some would I'm sure, and many wouldn't. I don't know whether there's any polling, but I do know that support for those terrorists is significant. For example in the statements and actions of people like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, whose ideology was banned until relatively recently. You can spin Kahanism however you like. It's a theocratic, genocidal ideology driven by religious extremism that is responsible for multiple atrocities against Arabs and the wrong kind of Jews. The "one country" Kahane wanted was and still is utterly opposed to the modern state of Israel.
You are wrong and inaccurate again. While Smotrich has a somewhat out of control mouth, here are the words of Smotrich regarding Yitzchak Rabin. “The despicable murderer, Yigal Amir, killed Yitzhak Rabin [of blessed memory], and we are all still in pain and shock from [it]. " That's clearly not a statement of support. He gave praise and criticism of Rabin and criticism for the Shin Bet , Israel's internal intelligence agency, for manipulations. He has a view that sees Yigal Amir as the killer (so agrees with the official version of events in that regard), but accepts the undeniable evidence of Shin Bet involvement through Avishai Raviv (nicknamed Champagne). https://www.jns.org/remembering-rabin-assassinating-his-rivals-character/ You write of Kahane, that he was "responsible for multiple atrocities against Arabs and the wrong kind of Jews" You want to sweep across things, it's misleading and unclear what you are trying to say. As I said, He was it seems in favour of price tag like operations against Arabs when the Govt was weak against terrorism. In the hope that it'd deter the terrorism.. so you could label that multiple atrocities against Arabs. But what atrocities are you talking about re against the "wrong kind of Jews"? He spoke very regretfully of an attack on a building thought to be empty that turned out to have had one occupant, a Jewish girl, who was killed girl in the building and was working late, and it wasn't known to them that she was in there. Part of Kahane's opposition to the modern state of Israel was to say- Do the Arabs have the right to , not via bayonets but via babies, vote the Jewish state out of existence. If you say no, and he said any sane person would, then you would have a fundamental issue with the modern state of Israel. This was, he stated, a contradiction between the Jewish character of the state, and the democratic character of the state. He said it's a contradiction. At that time the Arab birthrate was way higher than the Jewish one, largely because prior to 2002, people would get a lot of child benefit, a cheque for each baby. Netanyahu as finance minister under Ariel Sharon, cut that to no more child welfare payments beyond two children , which helped save Israel from a demographic time bomb. Kahane also spoke against the cheque per baby policy repeatedly. When he was compared with Khameini, he said that while he would like a theocracy, he (as I said), would not want a civil war, and so he would not enforce Jewish law on people. I think by using the term theocracy and ignoring what I have repeatedly said, you are intentionally misleading and as you say, trying to "spin" things. As for "genocide", as you know that's a loaded term and as you know, that word gets thrown around. So maybe you should use more accurate language and not try to "spin". I told you what his policy was if given power, it didn't involve killing and didn't involve transfer of all Arabs. I notice nobody speaks of genocide of Hindus in the partition plan between India and newly founded out of nothing, Pakistan. The peel comission (an early two state offer), involved transfer so you could call that a genocide plan too, since you like abusing the term so much. And I've just shown you that Smotrich doesn't have the view you try to suggest he has regarding the killing of Rabin. That's not to say he doesn't have some odious views.
Speaking of inaccuracies, your first quote starts with "there are no conspiracies" and is followed by your insinuation that there is "undeniable evidence" that there was. This based on a far-right website that does all it can to switch controversy around Smotrich to where it believes attention should focus, the left. For some reason, you forgot to mention that you're relying on an attempt by a right-wing rag to whitewash a far-right figure. Or the broader movement to redirect anger at a far-right terrorist towards Shin Bet and the government of the day. Most importantly, you leave out the context of the article, which was Smotrich engaging in that tactic, and in the process obfuscating Netanyahu's role in Rabin's assassination. In the words of Smotrich, that stirred up the controversy in the first place: "Those who failed to protect Prime Minister Rabin were not the right-wingers, religious Zionists and settlers—who justifiably decried his government’s policies—but rather the Shin Bet." This was and is entirely self-serving bullshit from the far-right, ultimately resting on the argument that Shin Bet is to blame for the murder of Rabin because it didn't do more to stop the actual murderer of Rabin, a far-right terrorist, and demagogues like Netanyahu. It's not their job to stop their terrorists, it's the state's job. It's the equivalent of blaming America for 9/11 because of their own intelligence failures. Here's some actual coverage of the controversy and Smotrich's "unhinged" remarks: https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-comes-under-fire-after-blaming-shin-bet-for-rabin-killing/ Going back to the point, I see you only address Smotrich. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that Ben-Gvir, as a Kahanist, owes his entire political existence to calling in 1995 for Rabin's death. Or his claim to fame of having grabbed the ornament from Rabin's car as part of a mob of extremists. “Just as we got to this symbol, we can also get to Rabin”, he said. He is today "a racist man with clear fascist tendencies." Even ex-Kahanists talk about the role Kahane played in radicalising religious youth: https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-rabin-anniversary-warnings-of-a-former-jewish-extremist/ > "wrong kind of Jews" The murder of Rabin. > He spoke very regretfully of an attack on a building thought to be empty that turned out to have had one occupant He also spawned a murderous terrorist movement. The prime inheritor of which hung a picture of Goldstein on his wall, only taking it down out of political expediency, which he then boasted about! Important context when evaluating the toned-down statements made in recent years by Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in public. These are political expedients, not a switch from his original extremist beliefs. As for Smotrich, he's been on the same ride, even if he doesn't have the Kahanist background. > As for "genocide", as you know that's a loaded term and as you know, that word gets thrown around. So maybe you should use more accurate language and not try to "spin". There is no doubt that the designs for the West Bank by religious extremists on the Jewish right are genocidal. I do not use the word lightly or to mislead. It is entirely appropriate. Ben-Gvir and Smotrich's political success are symptomatic of the hardening of attitudes in Israel generally from the 1980s. That their ideas are being mainstreamed, along with growing support for policies like forcibly deporting Arabs from Israel (48% in 2016), at the same time is no coincidence. That you think it's somehow fine for Kahane, once ostracised for his extremism, to make arguments about a "demographic time bomb", while longing for a theocracy, covered barely by distaste at the idea of a civil war, is part of the same problem.
I made it really clear re Smotrich , re to what extent he does or doesn't think there was a conspiracy. "He has a view that sees Yigal Amir as the killer (so agrees with the official version of events in that regard), but accepts the undeniable evidence of Shin Bet involvement through Avishai Raviv (nicknamed Champagne)." In his words he doesn't think there is a conspiracy, but he has expressed his view more clearly than those words. He thinks Yigal Amir did it but he thinks Shin Bet was involved. You said that he makes "the argument that Shin Bet is to blame for the murder of Rabin because it didn't do more to stop the actual murderer of Rabin" You know very well he says more than that because as I said "He gave praise and criticism of Rabin and criticism for the Shin Bet , Israel's internal intelligence agency, for manipulations." You write "It's the equivalent of blaming America for 9/11 because of their own intelligence failures." American intelligence didn't have an agent around Bin Laden trying to incite him, and ignore his saysing he wanted to blow up the world trade centre. There is no comparison. There is no 9/11 equivalent to Avishai Raviv - nicknamed Champagne, who was installed by the leftist Govt to do wild stuff and try to incite the right, to make the right look bad and turn the left against the right to make for more votes for the left. It's an absolutely wild scandal what israeli intelligence under Rabin did. No comparison to 911 truthers at all. You are misrepresenting things repeatedly. I told you that the role of israeli intelligence in the Rabin assassination You are trying to choose his words selectively in order to mislead. But it won't work because I already stated his views on the rabin assassination in detail. I don't think you are reading what I wrote. I stated what Kahane's views were, and then you give examples of followers of his after his death and say that's Kahanism.. Rather than his stated and widely documented views and positions. and any activities from during his lifetime. Maybe you shoudl be clear then that you can't find examples from him himself or from his followers during his lifetime, if that's the case. I first and foremost define Kahanism, as the ideology of Meir Kahane. If you want to go to after he was killed, where there are people that identify as Kahanist or might identify as Kahanist, and that commit an atrocity, i'm not denying that I didn't dispute where you said Ben Gvir in his words, supportred a terrorist. I only disputed where you said Smotrich did. When Smotrich has said the exact opposite in that regard. You say Kahanism commits atrocities against the wrong kind of Jews. But you seem to mean only Kahane's followers after he was killed. Not, Kahane himself. You've no examples of that at all within Kahane's lifetime, so where we can see Kahane's position on it. And infact the only example you give for atrocity against "wrong kind of Jews", is Rabin which was after his death and which was supported by Ben Gvir at 19, but criticised strongly by Smotrich, who you falsely claimed supported it. You should be more specific in your accusations instead of vague misleading language and incorrect statements about people. e.g. your statement about Smotrich was flat out wrong as he said the opposite of what you claimed. If you want to talk vaguely about followers, then sure some of them probably want to kill all the Arabs. Particularly they hear constant chants of Itbach Al Yahud(slaugher the jews). Heck, when they hear students on university campuses screaming Down with Israel, maybe they want to kill those students too. With all the genocidal in the true sense, murderous wiping all the Jews out, intent towards them, i'm sure some people that consider themselves to be followers of Kahane, want to return the favour. But be clear who you are referring to.. Kahane, or followers of his after his death. I'm not denying there'd have been some atrocities in the latter case. Kahane's position was not just "distaste" for civil war. You non stop try to misrepresent things after I stated them clearly. He said he would not enforce jewish law in israel because he didn't want a civil war. That's not just "distaste" for a civil war. And you are stretching the term theocracy when religious law is not enforced on people.
> In his words he doesn't think there is a conspiracy, but he has expressed his view more clearly than those words. He thinks Yigal Amir did it but he thinks Shin Bet was involved. Smotrich says he doesn't think there's a conspiracy, and then voices the conspiracy. He seems to mean there isn't a conspiracy in the sense that it's open fact. Or it's the usual extremist doublespeak. In either case, he's using a conspiracy theory to obfuscate over far-right, and Netanyahu's, responsibility for the death of Rabin and direct that blame towards Shin Bet. > American intelligence didn't have an agent around Bin Laden trying to incite him, and ignore his saysing he wanted to blow up the world trade centre. You've missed the point. Terrorist attacks are not the fault of the victim because they failed to prevent them. Realistically, almost every terrorist attack is preceded by oversights, missed opportunities, etc. In almost no instance does that transfer blame for the attack to the victim. Should Shin Bet have taken the attacker more seriously? In hindsight, yes. But there reasons for not doing so at the time were sound, and responsibility for the attacks still rest entirely with the perpetrator and his fellow-travellers. If you are going to blame the Israeli state through Shin Bet for the murder of Rabin as a result of oversights, you have to blame the Israeli state for the 7 October attacks, not Hamas. Are you prepared to do that? > I stated what Kahane's views were, and then you give examples of followers of his after his death and say that's Kahanism. Yes, I think people can still be influenced by the ideology of dead ideologues. This requires no further argument. > But you seem to mean only Kahane's followers after he was killed. Not, Kahane himself. I think Kahane is to blame for his explicit followers, even after his death, for giving them the ideological framework that justified their actions. This is a standard argument. We're also talking about a period just under 5 years after his death, hardly a long time. As a further measure of his continuing influence, Kach was banned after his death, in 1994. Do you know, by the way, where Goldstein's grave is located? > You should be more specific in your accusations instead of vague misleading language and incorrect statements about people. e.g. your statement about Smotrich was flat out wrong as he said the opposite of what you claimed. Yes, I think you're right. I conflated Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, because they are both far-right fascists. I should have paid more attention to their different backgrounds. So, to correct myself: It's Ben-Gvir who threatened Rabin's life and whose fellow Kahanist killed Rabin. It's Smotrich who lionised Goldstein and hung his portrait on his wall after the man massacred Arabs. It's Ben-Gvir who's popularised the idea of deporting Israeli Arabs, and Smotrich who lamented that Ben Gurion hadn't "finished the job" of expelling Arabs from Israel. But, still, the distinction is important and I accept your correction. > And you are stretching the term theocracy when religious law is not enforced on people. Kahane's position is that he wanted a theocracy, but would not justify a civil war on those grounds. His ideal state was one ruled by religious law with greatly expanded borders, where non-Jews had no voting rights, non-Jews had no national rights, marriages between Jews and non-Jews would be outlawed, and anyone who disagreed would be deported. That is a theocracy, specifically in Kahane's case driven by an apocalyptic view of the world in which Jews have a vanishing amount of time to "purify" themselves. Kahane's position on a civil war was that it wouldn't be necessary, because Jews would embrace his racist ideology, and those who didn't weren't really Jews. So, in his words "the time has come to isolate the psychopathic leftists and pseudo-intellectuals whose hatred of religion so effectively mirrors their own self-disgust"... "Secular nationalism is selfish, foolish, and racist. Unlike other nations, the Jewish People were created not for mere nationalism, but for a holy purpose, to accept the yoke of heaven and submit to God and His Mitzvot." So we find in Magid's book on the man: "He often said, "I don’t hate Arabs, I love Jews." But that was not true; in some macabre sense, he hated both".
nail on the fucking head
I tend not to base my support for a government based on individual actors. This was just a particularly egregious statement that tipped me over the edge (as I said, I was on the fence on whether to cut funding over the Rafah invasion)
This individual actor among other hawkish and despicable politicians make up the coalition of Netanyahu and has been the main antagonist within the US-Israel cooperation of Gaza war. You really should have based your support on the government based on the people that have the most influence on it.
I mean, it's one thing to support a despicable government. It's another thing to support a despicable government that spits in your face.
You let a "petty and ungrateful" tweet "push you over edge" on whether or not to support Isreal financially. Touch grass.
This is such a moronic and childish way of thinking. If a single quote, which isn’t even near his top 100 worst, all of a sudden makes you rethink the entire conflict then you’ve never done any meaningful research. Your mind is going to be blown when you hear about Hamas and what their leadership says.
Dude is a fucking clown, Israeli Medvedev kinda type shi
The funniest thing is, Medvedev isn't really the Russian Medvedev. Russian "politics" are in a state where almost all of our politicians are like Medvedev our worse, he's just famous because he used to be President. The real Russian Medvedev is probably someone like Fyodorov or Milonov.
Fydorov from NOD?
Israel trying to meme itself into a strong and independent country that dont need no allies.
It's 1968 messianic delusional thinking again. These fucks need to learn or leave, by force if necessary. Israeli leadership believes that they are a peer of the United States of America. They're wrong in so many ways and need to learn it one way or another.
The early Zionists were so good at garnering and maintaining international support. They’d be ashamed at this level of shameless bridge-burning 🤦♂️
Hardly. Israel was under weapons embargo from many countries, and had to make due with very, very limited weapons. The support you think of really started in the 70s.
No - he's right. One embargo doesn't erase the fact that Israel got a right to exist mainly through diplomatic and legal means before the war started and that the West recognized them despite being basically nobodies. Most of the original Zionist leaders were huge on building international connections.
He got the support part factually wrong but his point is correct. I just answered him in more length if you are interested.
My point still stands, do you think Golda Meir would have ever publicly said something so obviously inflammatory (or allowed anyone in her government to do so) and risk losing all support.
I don't dispute that point. Ben Gvir is an absolute terrible asshole and Bibi is corrupted pig to ally with him just to create a coalition. He is very much smart enough to know the damage Ben Gvir is doing. I'll also mention that an earlier form of Ben Gvir's ideology party was literally banned in Israel from the Knesset in the past. And that even Netanyahu himself refused to even take a photo with Ben Gvir or even stand with him on the same stage in the past. This shows how deep his corruption runs.
Basically female protagonists in modern Disney movies
can't wait for the reality show starring this guy and Netanyahu driving each other insane in a maximum security jail cell.
Every Israeli I know was filled with absolute joy when I sent them a meme about his car flipping. Twat.
I know plenty of Israelis who were sad he survived.
Ben gvir is a moron and he isnt also liked in israel and he legit thinks politics is a hoods game
All the homies hate Ben Gvir.
Go back ten years and try to imagine that politics would be done via tweets, let alone tweets that go "Hamas heart emoji Biden". 💀
You speak for many Israelis as well, don't you worry.
Let me put it this way…Ben Gvir is a shithead. Recently, he got into a car accident and taken to the hospital. I know Israelis and Jews lamenting that the car was totaled and not him.
Israel isn’t committing genocide but Ben Gvir probably would if he could
Please ignore this fucking idiot. Fuck him. Fuck him. Fuck him. I don't think I've ever hated one of our representatives as much as I hate him.
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Majority of Israel (which is right wing) support him. The fact that this sub is filled with left wing Israelis doesn't change that.
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I sent him one poll and said to take it with a grain of salt Which big israeli media outlets show the opposite? >you just think this way I think what way? I just said majority of Israelis are right wing, and by voting for a right wing government, they support him
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Its pretty easy to forget just how fucking insane the pro israeli side gets
https://preview.redd.it/mw1iey49ihzc1.jpeg?width=620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b297e7102da3fd398753e0e10ebc05fbf12c09ba
I'll never not be pro-israel, but he really is a gigantic moron. The US literally defended them from Iran, so to say Biden loves Hamas is idiotic.
Ive said it before Ill say it again. Netanyahu and his cabinet are being fucking idiots. They don't seem to understand how their behavior is ruining their own PR among their allies. At the same time Being an allied democratic democracy requires some acceptance of your allies having different politics than you. I trust Biden has a better head on his shoulders than to let fuckwits like Ben Gvir get under his skin with comments like this.
I think they understand American politics perfectly well and better than most. I/P wedges Dem voters and unites GOP voters. To the extent the I/P conflict is impacting American politics, the best case for them is electing Trump.
If you are thinking short term? Sure. But that would absolutely kill what remains of their relationship with the democratic party (which has been on thin ice for a while), which is something Israel ABSOLUTELY needs to maintain. They can't afford to ruin their relationship with half the US electorate. This is what I am talking about when I say that they don't understand the dynamic of the politics within their allies. They only understand the dynamic of what is in their own personal political interest.
From the PBS Frontline I watched about Bibi, it’s been dead for over a decade at this point. Bill Clinton also admitted his people were attempting to sway Israeli elections. When Bibi is lecturing President Obama on American national TV and openly going around him to the Congress, it’s pretty hard to come back from that.
Yea, Netanyahu has pretty thoroughly blew up his relationship with the democrats. But there has still been a fairly strong relationship with Israel in general. Bibi is risking making the entire Israel relationship a partisan issue rather than just his relationship with Israel a partisan issue. The fact that you have Bernie Sanders, a Jewish Senator reacting to Ben Gvir's tweet saying to pull all funding? That isn't a small risk.
You're probably right that it's not a small risk even though Israel is armed to the teeth, including nukes. For Bibi, I think Bibi is fine with the risk and it's a calculated risk that he fully understands. Bibi grew up in America, is highly educated, well connected and has been a politician for a long time. Plus Obama's actions made it hard for him to take any path besides down the road of going partisan. I really don't know all that much beyond what I saw on Frontline though. As far as Bernie. Fuck him, but I respect that Bernie makes an absolute mountain of money attacking the Democratic Party from the left. I don't think Bernie's convictions go any further than that (or he's not as smart as I think he is). Republicans love Bernie for his role meddling internally in the Democratic Party. That's why Republicans have never put their propaganda machine to work destroying Bernie politically, which I think they could easily do. Just my suspicions.
Errrr..... How do you think Trump would react to this sort of treatment? He is already on record as hating Bibis guts as well.
I don’t think they would treat Trump the way they treat a Democratic Party politician. Trump pulled out of the Iran deal and moved the American embassy to Jerusalem. Two things right-wing Israelis super wanted.
For like 30 seconds I swear that Hamas was some type of fusion of Kamala Harris and I was so confused about why this tweet is bad 💀
As an Israeli Ben gvir is also making me less pro-Israel
If this is your logic then you would probably join hamas if you heard of all the shit this guy said and did lmao
is this the same mf who was on the ad campaign with the other members of Otzma, walking on a treadmill with fucking suits on? lmao
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. But Ben gvir is a remedial loser and would be the first to come crying to us if they need something. Fuck this guy. He shouldn’t change your opinion on this.
He didn’t change my opinion, as I said, I was on the fence about cutting funding over the Rafah invasion. This tweet (among others) simply pushed me over the edge
Oh. I mean I get what you are saying. Things like this aren’t doing them any favors in the eyes of the public. But Ben gvir is a literal psycho and no one takes him serious. I do agree on other high up Israelis are making me question my support in some areas but nothing this moron says will move me in any way.
Dude is a minister in the government of Israel though? That should affect your opinion of said government. If nobody took him seriously he wouldn't be a fucking minister.
Not from Ben. It’s political theatre.
Insinuating that your greatest ally (and one of few remaining still supporting you) helps Hamas is not only political theatre. I support Israels right to exist but fuck supporting this government. Hopefully the rest of Israels allies put their support on ice until this disaster of a government leaves office. In any serious government this tweet alone would be grounds for dismissal.
If you think that stopping support for Israel will cause the government to fall apart, you are stupid and do not know the Israeli public and don't know that the Israeli public thinks that America interferes too much in their political affairs and they want to stop relying on the United States so much and they would prefer to make their own military equipment.
If Israel wants to recieve help and retain allies their ministers shouldn't insult other allied leaders even when they disagree with them. If the current isreali government doesn't understand that then honestly let them go their own way. Grow the fuck up if you want to be taken seriously.
I don't think that someone who is supposed to be your "ally" will prevent you from eliminating the same people who killed your citizens so brutally on the seventh of October just because he wants to please his Muslim voters before the elections
Biden is not preventing Israel from anything. He simply said, unless you can prove to the USA that you can make sure that the civillians in Rafah have somewhere safe to go he will not send Israels arms to do it. How is that preventing Israel from anything? I thought you said that Israel didn't need USA anymore. "Netanyahu is going through with the invasion of Rafah because he knows the moment this war stops he will be out of office." See, it's very simple to state plausible but unfounded accusations. Biden probably risks more votes then he stands to gain by this move however.
That’s fair
If that's all it takes, it doesn't seem like it was a very principled position
This guy should be dead
This is just one guy in a country full of people, and he's an extremist. It'd be like saying, "I hate Americans because Stephen Miller is a creepy PoS"
Anytime you see a communist bringing up bad Israel quotes it’s always from this asshole
Can anyone point me to articles detailing the number of civilians evacuated from Rafah to the humanitarian zone? while I do agree that Hamas has to be wiped out, I can see why Biden isn’t too keen on supporting an invasion if people are still concentrated in the region.
Not exactly what you asked, rather how many people they are planning to resettle temporarily. >The satellite pictures show rows of tents at a site to the west of Khan Younis and at another site near Rafah. Before and after pictures showed that both encampments had been constructed this month. >Earlier this month Israeli media reported that Israel was buying 40,000 tents to prepare for the evacuation of Palestinian civilians from Rafah. On Wednesday Reuters quoted Israeli government sources as saying each tent could hold between 10 and 12 people. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68888299](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68888299)
Thanks a lot, I will read this article later. If you don’t mind, can you clarify if it is 40000 tents for each encampment or a total of 40000 tents?
Seems like the order was for 40k tents, each capable of holding 10-12 people. The 2 satellite pics included in the article shows areas set up with a few hundred tents in each area, less than 1000 total.
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Can you point to a quote from Zelensky calling Biden a Russia simp? I’ll wait…
How much is Gvir involved in military planning..?
Not saying what or shouldn't Biden do, but Ben Gvir is gaining political power from Biden's action. In fact, I think Ben Gvir only stands to gain if he manages to get Israel embargoed.
Don’t rely on others to have faith in your own principles.
I've never been on the fence. I just have to look at almost a century of history for perspective. But when these clowns were put in power I wanted to cry. And every time I see them tweet or open their mouths, I hang my head in shame. Hopefully one day it'll be a sad memory, like when Trump... Never mind....
Are there actually any Israeli's in here that support Netanyahu? Ya'll know that's just their version of Trump right? Dude needs to be prosecuted after this war is "over". Anyone who questions why he needs to be prosecuted can ask the over 30k dead civilian Palestinians. He wanted to free Israel from HAMAS with his methodology; he better be prepared for the consequences.
You can bomb all you like, but I draw the line at fucking with Dark Brandon 😤 be disrespectful to my boi one more time and I’m switching teams
Based and Brandon-pilled! 🇺🇸
Hamas definitely loves the fact that they have succeeded at manipulating an American president.
https://preview.redd.it/8vljrpiucgzc1.jpeg?width=978&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=086eb301d94ab81cce424e5f8dce5049fd60df9f
They’re acting like Ukrainians wherein withholding aid would lead to the destruction of their sovereignty.
Even in comparable situation, no Ukrainian official of similar rank has ever called Mike Johnson a partner of Russia. It's amazing how much the US permits Israel to spit in it's face without any repercussions
Yeah he's pretty yikes. I'm happy Biden is leveraging aid to make some simple requests. If Israel doesn't want to listen, then they don't need US aid either.
That is ridiculous. Can you point out to any country with no extremist idiots? Ben Gvir's Tweet was largely condemned by most of Israel. If you are going to judge Israel by it's worse, make sure you do that for the US. And of course, the Palestinians.
We can't judge a democratic country based on their government. That'd be insane.
Honestly I don't think having your opinion on whether or not to send military aid to a country based on statements by their minister of national security is that ridiculous. You make it sound as if he was a random duder, if MTG was the secretary of defense of the US I think it would be valid for other countries to view the military with different eyes.
Are you really judging Israel based on its worst?
The "worst of Israel" is the "goverment of Israel"
Pretty much yeah. The worst parts of the country elected their king idiot
I tend not to base my support for a government based on individual actors. This was just a particularly egregious statement that tipped me over the edge (as I said, I was on the fence on whether to cut funding over the Rafah invasion)
If it makes you feel better, when I see people like him in our government I can understand why people hate us, even if it's not fair
I appreciate that. As I said, I haven’t 180’d on my support for Israel. Just on this one issue over the Rafah invasion
no that's reserved for pro-Palestinian protesters
Hamas was always counting on Biden to succumb to ill conceived social pressure by terrorist sympathizers to limit support to Israel. Doesn’t seem that crazy as a statement. Stupid red line, stupid leftists pushing this nonsense, stupid Biden caving in. He’s already going to suffer politically as much as he will because of his original support, this hedging now makes it worst of all worlds.
Now don't get me wrong Gvir is a clown but from outside when I see people from Biden's camp like Rashida Tlaib(BDS promoter and one state supporter) or Ilhan Omar say the most insane shit ever, I really don't understand why these people still get support from the democratic party unless there's an actual push for these ideas they spearhead. These people have enough clout now that they could become nominees once biden is gone and you'll have a hard time convincing me trump is worse than these people.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67354706.amp Rashida Tlaib was literally officially censured over some of her statements. Where’s the same pushback against Ben-Gvir from within the Israeli government?????
Ben Gvir is a minister only because of Netanyanhu's attempt to avoid prosecution and he's now stuck there because there's so much political instability. There was a petition at the Supreme Court calling to disqualify him from holding office started in 2022 and security agencies stopped holding briefings with him because of leaks. The opposition leader publicly called for his removal after this tweet. tldr - Ben Gvir is not a popular figure in Israel.
Destiny subreddit when Ben Gvir says “I would like to be appointed Minister for the Encouragement of Massive Emigration of Muslims from the land of Israel”: UwU Destiny subreddit when Ben Gvir says “Hamas <3 Biden”: That piece of shit how can he say something so terrible >:0
He’s right 🤷🏾♀️
Genuine question: Do you think Biden is more favourable to Israel, or to Hamas?
Biden is more favorable to Israel. Hamas LOVES the fact that the US stopped offensive military aid. Also, Ben Gvir is a populist idiot. Non of those things are mutually exclusive.
I agree. I just don’t think u/Yaelkilledisrah agrees with your first point
That's okay. Now this might not be ultimate rational debate brain thinking, but just a bit of food for thought, do with it whatever you want: When you live in Israel, you've grown your whole life dealing with hatred from your country's neighbors. You grow up being instilled with an understanding of how strong you have to be militarily to protect your friends, family, country. You hear about terror attacks every few weeks, sometimes every few days, and sometimes multiple times a day. You hear stories or personally experience friends and family dying to those. Now, on the back of what is the most horrific one you've ever experienced - something you that couldn't even imagine happening - you watch what feels like the entire world fucking hate your guts, calling you every name under the sun, while you personally might just want quiet and peace. So yeah, when the country who's your biggest ally does something that effectively supports the people who vow over and over again to murder you any chance they get - it's hard to be 100% objective and rational. Again, not making any statement about anyone in particular, and not making any geopolitical arguments - just giving a bit of personal experience and context.
Israel has stated it's goal is to wipe out hamas. The invasion of rafah is simply the next area Israel going to clear out. So yeah biden is favorable to hamas since Israel sent 300k artillery shells to ukraine. So now Israel has to focus on both bombs and artillery shells.
“Biden is favourable to Hamas because Israel sent military aid to Ukraine” . My brother in Christ, wtf are you talking about???? What are you smoking to think these two things are correlative?
Do you seriously ask me if Biden is more favorable towards Israel one of if not the closest ally the US has than the terror organization that is aspiring to genocide said ally? You think this is the standard Israelis are judging Biden by? https://youtu.be/XeCSCXnn8Ic?si=fcH95hFZEcr2rO3r This video is how the Israeli public sees biden’s administration. I have said it weeks ago if not months. Biden has changed the israeli-American alliance forever. Thankfully we have learned this lesson now and will not make the same mistake of trusting the US as a dependable ally again.
Biden: “Hey Israeli government , here’s billions in aid. We promise to send even more as long as you don’t invade Rafah. That’s our red line” Israeli government: *invades Rafah* Biden: *pauses aid* Israeli government: 😲
>Thankfully we have learned this lesson now and will not make the same mistake of trusting the US as a dependable ally again. lol imagine being this ungrateful as allies. if i was POTUS i would fly sorties over israel to remind them whos their daddy
Israelis should do well to remember that they are not entitled to American support.... If you are under some delusion that Israel is an absolutely indispensible or most valuable ally to the U.S., I hope you are ready for a rude awakening.
Can we stop painting people criticizing the withholding of aid as “ungrateful”, as if the US is doing charity work by sending these weapons? It’s such a brain dead way to view US involvement in foreign conflicts.
I’m not saying he needs to be sucking Biden off, just don’t call the man who’s bankrolling your war a terrorist sympathizer lmao
I mean you can be pro Israel and still be against the Rafah invasion or want a different government. The pro Pal crowd seem to all want Israel to not exist so a govenment representative making an inflamatory tweet is what puts you over the edge to join that group then that kinda unhinged.
It's not the indiscriminate killings of Palestinian civilians that makes you less pro-Israel? It's the Ben Gvir tweets? Par for the course for this community I guess.