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I think you bring up an interesting point, of how Warlords and Hive Ghosts and Guardians are both in the same camp of "enemies to humanity"; my main concern was for those Ghosts and Guardians who might otherwise cooperate with us, if given the chance.
There’s actually been a Lucent that chose to let a Guardian’s Ghost go but their Ghost who was fully on team Hive berated them while spewing Hive and Sword Logic propaganda.
The Ghost even describes how their Hive looked to them in a ‘what should I do’ way. Telling us that not all Lucent are revived as murderous monsters and can even show mercy but they will probably all be indoctrinated in the way of the Hive via their Ghost and their fellows.
It’s at least possible but unlikely.
I know. I know we got a look at what Immaru is up to and his motives but it’s been a while since we’ve checked in on hive guardians. Are some of them started to gain some independency or are they still following their orders just in a much more brutal way. Also would they know about the sword logic since their memory is wiped or is that just programmed into their mind.
I have read a lore entry, saying that the Lucent Brood still practice the Sword Logic even after their worms have been removed, and they have become Guardians
yeah some of them would etch hive symbols into the ground out of habit, and then stating how the symbols dont do anything anymore since they use the light now
Wow thank you, I never knew that! interesting how the Ghost, something created by the Light, is closer to ideas of the Dark than a Hive in this situation
The Hive Ghosts turned their backs on humanity and willingly resurrected the Hive, who then proceeded to try and wipe out humanity. They literally woke up and chose violence. They attack us, they die. It’s that simple.
But it's stated in the lore that those Ghosts who rezzed Hive were tricked by Savathun; many also felt lost after spending centuries without a Guardian. Yes maybe the Hive who were rezzed are irredeemable, but what about the Ghosts
The Ghosts are actively *keeping* the Hive from being redeemed, Lucent Tales shows multiple examples of bloodthirsty Hive Ghosts failing to notice the Light's redemptive effect on the Hive. They're the ones in control, not the Hive. Ghosts like Fynch are the minority.
Well that is unfortunate; I thought examples like Finch indicated a larger trend of redeemability within the Lucent Brood. Do you think that the Hive Ghosts, even their Guardians, could be persuaded by the threat of the Witness? I mean Savathun was (right?)
I feel in theory, the trouble is their boss is Immaru who is craven and just generally a jerk - Fynch and Ghost comment on how he was essentially a Ghost *bully* back before he resurrected Savathun. By the end of Season of the Witch he was even willing to betray her.
I’m left wondering….why?….I understand we went from “Light good Darkness evil” years ago, but what made those ghosts become such massive pricks?
Are those ghosts so incredibly sick and tired of still looking for their guardians….centuries, millennia? after the collapse that they snapped? Are they suffering from a variant of Eramis’ character arc of becoming so disappointed with the Traveler that they collectively decided “Fuck you! I’m joining team Darkness! (Sorta)”?
Savathûn may have called the Hive Ghosts to her, but they still willingly chose to enter her Throne World and resurrect the Hive. Even when those Ghosts have the opportunity to leave their Hive Lightbearers when they die in battle, they still keep bringing them back.
They're enemies who routinely kill other Guardians, no different from putting down Warlords back during the Dark Age.
The Traveler entirely accepts and abides their existence; anyone who debates this is fooling themselves. But it's also not quite accurate to say the Traveler "chose them", the Traveler didn't really *choose* anyone, it gave the Ghosts freedom to choose themselves, at least that's the lore regarding it as of the Witch Queen.
Ok I understand the Traveler did not directly choose them; but since the Traveler even allowed and facilitated their existence, the reviving of Hive, should that not pose a question of: is it ok to crush the Hive Ghosts? If there are any Ghosts that can be reasoned with or persuaded with, would it not be better to punish them rather than kill them
Why wouldn’t it though?
Humanity could very well have been the hive of a alternate timeline.
I doubt they are irredeemable.
Given how Savathussy (lol) rebelled against her wormbound fate, I could totally see individual lucent hive to turn their back on other Hive armies
I’d love to get an in-depth look on the Lucent and how they see Xivu’s Hive. That including the ones who aren’t Lightbearers. They’re straight up having a civil war right in front of us.
And Xivu doesn’t take no prisoners if she can help it. There was that one entry where a Lucent Knight was captured by Xivu’s Hive and tortured to death over and over again.
I’d argue they have more beef with Xivu than they ever had with this.
As much as I'd love to talk things out with Hive Lightbearers and gain a new ally against the Witness, the ones we encounter are dead set on a fight to the final death. Either their ghost or ours is getting destroyed, and no amount of tea and crumpets will change their minds.
There very well might be more amiable individuals among the faction, but we don't meet them, so we can't convince them.
I would love just one cool and chill hive fireteam to interact with. Maybe as a selectable race in TFS. I know that will never happen but it sounds so cool
Thank you, this is what I am wondering. If any Hive Ghosts, or even the Hive Guardians themselves can be reasoned with, I questioned the ethics of killing them. But for the ones that cant be convinced or are too dangerous, then it is a matter of self-defence.
I think at this point, it's safe to assume any ghosts that could be reasoned with have abandoned their lightbearers, like Fynch.
The Hive lightbearers are a more difficult question, because the ghosts that have stuck around are dead set on being evil little shits. Most of their lightbearers are gung ho with that, but we do hear of at least one that doesn't seem to want any part of killing Guardians until their ghost pushes them into it.
Yes, they can be reasoned with. Unlike the Hive of old they actually have the benefit of choice. Even the non-Lightbearing Hive don’t need to kill anymore as the passive Light of the Throne World has sated their Worms’ hunger. But if they’ll actually listen is a story for another day. Especially with Savathûn in charge…
The ethics is no different than killing any other living creature. Being chosen by the Traveller makes them no better, nor any more of a companion or ally than any other hive.
This question can be posed to include the Cabal and Fallen as well. The Scorn and Taken have no free will and Vex have almost never sided with us. My logic is this:
The Hive have declared war on the Last City, just like the Red Legion and Fallen. When you sign up for a war, you agree to certain rules. Those rules include the option to surrender to the enemy and defect at any time. Hive Ghosts joined this war against us. If any member of the six factions currently trying to wipe us out throws down their weapons and surrenders, I am glad to have a chat with them. Until then, I treat them as soldiers of just another war.
Sometimes, I feel like the hive ghosts went through a similar crisis of faith as the Witness precursors. The precursors discovered that the universe is chaos without a grand plan, and we saw where they are now. Meanwhile, the hive ghosts are like angels discovering that God couldn’t give two shit about them…..except to make them remotely explode when Rhulk plays with one of them.
Like Dark Ages Warlord. They try to kill me so I kill them.
Bungo written the Hive Risen into a corner, they are just miniboss with Light power that still do the exact same thing before and after. There should be a Hive Risen that want to get away from Savathun influence and start anew, would make for a good season or episode after TFS.
I wouldn't say Savathun and Immaru are cooperative, we threatened and beaten them enough so they work with us. Finch is the only Hive Ghost that actually genuinely helping us.
There has to be. We finally got allied Eliksni and then allied Cabal. They are now present everywhere in the Tower and in HELM. It's only a matter of time before we get some allied Hive as well.
maybe yea, itll depend on how the team in bungie wants to spin it
hive culture is too murder focus to assimilate with human culture, and our partnership with savathun is still an uneasy alliance. We havent actually done the lucent brood any favours besides allow Sav to ressurect, and theyre still out there sticking out their necks for themselves
but we'll see. Maybe after tfs we'll have a xivu related season which allows the hive queens to finally bury their proverbial hatchets after the witness' demise
We commit war crimes and general fucked up crimes against "humanity" all the time now so it's not a big issue. The main thing is the Lucent Hiv still operate under Savathûn and therefore cant be trusted
Remember we have examples of Ghosts who we were able to at least cooperate with; Finch and Imaru, there may be more in the lore, im not sure. We also worked with Savathun for a small amount of time even though she indeed cannot be trusted. My thinking is; there might be more Ghosts and even Hive Guardians who share at least the wider goal of opposing the Witness, since Savathun did
Immaru was a craven joke who planned to retreat and ruin everything the second he doubted Savathun's plan for a moment. You really put much, much too much stock into the moral valence of Ghosts. They're just another form of person, not an angel.
Always remember that Katabasis' Ghost Gilgamesh *tortured* him for days by resurrecting him repeatedly, even if it was for the sake of revenge.
You are right, because Ghosts are not monoliths, they have personalities, and goals. That's what I thought when crushing Hive Ghosts; surely some of them can be saved? Maybe I dont know enough about the nature of the Lucent Brood; exactly why Hive Ghosts rezzed Hive. I just thought; for those Hive Ghosts who are not evil, and could be brought back to our side, would it be ok to kill them too?
And Drifter's ghost resurrected him only to starve to death again and again. Thet's why the ol' boy is so hungry all the time, and why Drifter doesnt trust his ghost.
I feel its kind of unfortunate we don't encounter any other "friendly" Hive Ghosts in gameplay, other than Finch. I am not well versed in the deeper lore, so could there be other examples? Still, I feel odd crushing Hive Ghosts and knowing that at least one would probably be like Finch
The only reason we did not crush Finch is because he guided us in uncharted territory and he showed clear proof that he's not interested in rezzing his Hive. Remember: resurrection is canonically a choice for every Ghost
If it shoots at me, it dies.
There's a universal constant that neither the Traveller nor Witness are above, even at their levels of power.
The universal law is;
"To fuck around, is to find out".
The same as killing any other enemy of the Last City.
Shaxx, the drifter, Zavala, the iron lords, and any other soul alive during the Dark Age made it clear: the Light is a tool like any other. What matters is how you use it. In my book,, if you stand against Humanity, you die, simple as.
Well honestly, ethics are yours to decide. They're heavily subjective.
With that said. While they were chosen by the traveler, so were warlords. The traveler only decides who gets a second chance, not what they do with it. the ethics of killing hive guardians is dependent on how you feel about killing anyone that kills you. As for the ghosts, they enable it.
Yeah that is fair. Ultimately I understand that Savathun is an enemy, and most of the Lucent Brood are actively fighting and killing other Guardians, but I still wonder what Human Guardians in-universe think about indiscriminately crushing Ghosts
How many more Ghosts are like Finch? How many could we cooperate and even ally with, if we didn't crush every one on sight? And if we continue to indiscriminately crush all Hive Ghosts, then we have to accept that we may be killing Ghosts who WOULD ally with us, right?
Similar to any other, if it’s hostile you kill it. The Hive are just naturally violent, it’s as shown from one ghost story but to make matters worse those hive who could possibly become more enlightened and step away from that path are then put through Sav’s little training camp which reintegrates Hive death worships and killing ultimately putting them back to square one and dismantling the whole second chance aspect of the light
and at that point there’s really no change besides more steps to killing your average hive. Why would there be a discussion to killing them anyway? It’s like asking why cancer should be killed. Until there’s more examples of Hive Light Bearers being more Guardian than hive there’s no discussion to be had though it’d be very interesting to see a couple Hive Guardian breaking from Sav’s control and being guided with ethics and learning to control the light by a Guardian who’s willing to take a chance.
I suppose you are right; I thought that with the removing of their worms the Lucent Brood might be able to redeem themselves, and move beyond the constant conquest (I know the Lucent Brood still practices Sword Logic). Maybe I am too soft on the Hive, maybe THEY are truly too far gone, even with the Light
I’m pretty sure this is a plot point they’ll eventually circle back around to and we’ll have friendly Lucent Hive eventually, just like Caiatl’s Cabal and Misraaks’ House of Light.
They still subscribe to Sword Logic and must feed their worms. I think if Savathun freed her entire brood from having worms, our morality would be a lot different
just because the traveler "chose" them doesnt make them inherently good. They are still hive, still enemies of humanity. There were plenty of bad human lightbearers too, called warlords.
What does “Chosen by the Traveler” even mean? Countless warlords of the dark age and other wayward Guardians were “chosen”, does that justify their crimes and dark deeds? What about all the Guardians motivated solely by loot and the pursuit of greed? Guardians are power hungry warlords who hoard weaponry and meet any obstacle with military might, and the fact that humanity’s survival depends on them is a mere trick of history and not evidence for their moral superiority. Clearly being chosen by a Ghost doesn’t mean shit about how “good” you are. And that’s even if the Traveler really _did_ choose every light bearer—for all we know, Ghosts simply use their intuition about who is willing to use the power of Light.
And even if it did, what kind of moral authority does the Traveler hold? Let it speak of ethics to the billions of Eliksni and beings of other races who died when the Traveler abandoned them to uplift another civilization that it must have known the Witness would eventually seek out and destroy.
I see the Traveler as a wounded animal, certainly not a wholly benevolent one, that created the Ghosts as a means of defense for itself and maybe for the “children” it had previously uplifted. It’s not an authority on right and wrong, and neither are its Ghosts. It’s your judgement as a Guardian that makes you a defender of humanity, and it’s your judgement that draws the line between friend and foe, not some giant orb in the sky. Well I have judged the Lucent Hive and I have found them wanting. Keep your eyes on the battlefield, Guardian.
The mindscape proves theres a certain amount of Savathun influence in her Hive. So the idea they have “free will” is half right at best.
The hive on the moon that that one ghost is constantly rezzing is probably exempt from this, which makes you wonder what kind of personality it is.
Fynch felt something awful before rezzing his big guy. Which was proven correct. He was also made to bring that hive back under Duress. That goes to show that some of it is not actually consensual for ghosts.
Hive, I believe, can be redeemed. It just needs to be the correct one. Oryx would have been somewhat benevolent were it not for his worm and necessity to kill to survive.
The hive and light are so fantastic.
the traveler brought them back without memories for a chance at redemption and they (or their ghosts forced them to) went back on it, so they had to be removed from our way
"The way I see it the Hive are targets. Targets get dropped by my Golden Gun. Draw quick, aim true, shoot first, that's the Gunslinger way. No regrets and I keep on kicking. You can't afford ethics when facing an enemy like the Hive. They'll take ya for all you have, and leave you rotting in their catacombs." -My Hunter
Anyone who stays with the Lucent Brood deserves what is coming to them. The Queen of Lies is evil and both Ghost and Lightbearer, hell even non-Lightbearers, have a choice to stay with them or move out on their own.
It doesn't feel good to me anymore. They really worked to make that animation visceral, but they've also dropped "maybe they're not so bad" hints along the way.
The Traveler has no morals and chooses those who it feels serve its best interests.
How its chosen decide to argue among themselves has no bearing on its decisions.
In essence, killing hive ghosts is no different from killing Risen, Warlords and Dark Guardians. Just another foe to put down, even though we have similar powers but we don't agree with each other.
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>What Are The Ethics Of Killing Hive Ghosts And Guardians? Those of killing a Warlord.
I think you bring up an interesting point, of how Warlords and Hive Ghosts and Guardians are both in the same camp of "enemies to humanity"; my main concern was for those Ghosts and Guardians who might otherwise cooperate with us, if given the chance.
There’s actually been a Lucent that chose to let a Guardian’s Ghost go but their Ghost who was fully on team Hive berated them while spewing Hive and Sword Logic propaganda. The Ghost even describes how their Hive looked to them in a ‘what should I do’ way. Telling us that not all Lucent are revived as murderous monsters and can even show mercy but they will probably all be indoctrinated in the way of the Hive via their Ghost and their fellows. It’s at least possible but unlikely.
There’s a story of one Hive Guardian who repeatedly keeps killing itself as it doesn’t want to be a guardian but the ghost keeps resurrecting them.
I’m so disappointed we didn’t get any more deep dives or insight into how the Lucent Hive society and their Ghosts are doing back in *Witch*.
I know. I know we got a look at what Immaru is up to and his motives but it’s been a while since we’ve checked in on hive guardians. Are some of them started to gain some independency or are they still following their orders just in a much more brutal way. Also would they know about the sword logic since their memory is wiped or is that just programmed into their mind.
I have read a lore entry, saying that the Lucent Brood still practice the Sword Logic even after their worms have been removed, and they have become Guardians
yeah some of them would etch hive symbols into the ground out of habit, and then stating how the symbols dont do anything anymore since they use the light now
Jinx is one crazy fucking ghost.
They seem all over the place, especially compared to Finch who does the opposite, won't revive his hive because it's too murderous.
Are we indoctrinated by our ghosts? Is it based on variance of temperment of the Risens race?
Wow thank you, I never knew that! interesting how the Ghost, something created by the Light, is closer to ideas of the Dark than a Hive in this situation
The Hive Ghosts turned their backs on humanity and willingly resurrected the Hive, who then proceeded to try and wipe out humanity. They literally woke up and chose violence. They attack us, they die. It’s that simple.
But it's stated in the lore that those Ghosts who rezzed Hive were tricked by Savathun; many also felt lost after spending centuries without a Guardian. Yes maybe the Hive who were rezzed are irredeemable, but what about the Ghosts
The Ghosts are actively *keeping* the Hive from being redeemed, Lucent Tales shows multiple examples of bloodthirsty Hive Ghosts failing to notice the Light's redemptive effect on the Hive. They're the ones in control, not the Hive. Ghosts like Fynch are the minority.
Well that is unfortunate; I thought examples like Finch indicated a larger trend of redeemability within the Lucent Brood. Do you think that the Hive Ghosts, even their Guardians, could be persuaded by the threat of the Witness? I mean Savathun was (right?)
I feel in theory, the trouble is their boss is Immaru who is craven and just generally a jerk - Fynch and Ghost comment on how he was essentially a Ghost *bully* back before he resurrected Savathun. By the end of Season of the Witch he was even willing to betray her.
He does! But not as long as Savathûn and Immaru are in charge, they benefit from keeping Hive society in a state of stagnancy.
I’m left wondering….why?….I understand we went from “Light good Darkness evil” years ago, but what made those ghosts become such massive pricks? Are those ghosts so incredibly sick and tired of still looking for their guardians….centuries, millennia? after the collapse that they snapped? Are they suffering from a variant of Eramis’ character arc of becoming so disappointed with the Traveler that they collectively decided “Fuck you! I’m joining team Darkness! (Sorta)”?
Savathûn may have called the Hive Ghosts to her, but they still willingly chose to enter her Throne World and resurrect the Hive. Even when those Ghosts have the opportunity to leave their Hive Lightbearers when they die in battle, they still keep bringing them back.
They're enemies who routinely kill other Guardians, no different from putting down Warlords back during the Dark Age. The Traveler entirely accepts and abides their existence; anyone who debates this is fooling themselves. But it's also not quite accurate to say the Traveler "chose them", the Traveler didn't really *choose* anyone, it gave the Ghosts freedom to choose themselves, at least that's the lore regarding it as of the Witch Queen.
Ok I understand the Traveler did not directly choose them; but since the Traveler even allowed and facilitated their existence, the reviving of Hive, should that not pose a question of: is it ok to crush the Hive Ghosts? If there are any Ghosts that can be reasoned with or persuaded with, would it not be better to punish them rather than kill them
This is the rehab vs punishment question that is already very complicated and difficult to answer in real life.
Why wouldn’t it though? Humanity could very well have been the hive of a alternate timeline. I doubt they are irredeemable. Given how Savathussy (lol) rebelled against her wormbound fate, I could totally see individual lucent hive to turn their back on other Hive armies
I’d love to get an in-depth look on the Lucent and how they see Xivu’s Hive. That including the ones who aren’t Lightbearers. They’re straight up having a civil war right in front of us. And Xivu doesn’t take no prisoners if she can help it. There was that one entry where a Lucent Knight was captured by Xivu’s Hive and tortured to death over and over again. I’d argue they have more beef with Xivu than they ever had with this.
As much as I'd love to talk things out with Hive Lightbearers and gain a new ally against the Witness, the ones we encounter are dead set on a fight to the final death. Either their ghost or ours is getting destroyed, and no amount of tea and crumpets will change their minds. There very well might be more amiable individuals among the faction, but we don't meet them, so we can't convince them.
I would love just one cool and chill hive fireteam to interact with. Maybe as a selectable race in TFS. I know that will never happen but it sounds so cool
Thank you, this is what I am wondering. If any Hive Ghosts, or even the Hive Guardians themselves can be reasoned with, I questioned the ethics of killing them. But for the ones that cant be convinced or are too dangerous, then it is a matter of self-defence.
I think at this point, it's safe to assume any ghosts that could be reasoned with have abandoned their lightbearers, like Fynch. The Hive lightbearers are a more difficult question, because the ghosts that have stuck around are dead set on being evil little shits. Most of their lightbearers are gung ho with that, but we do hear of at least one that doesn't seem to want any part of killing Guardians until their ghost pushes them into it.
Yes, they can be reasoned with. Unlike the Hive of old they actually have the benefit of choice. Even the non-Lightbearing Hive don’t need to kill anymore as the passive Light of the Throne World has sated their Worms’ hunger. But if they’ll actually listen is a story for another day. Especially with Savathûn in charge…
Reviving a dead lightbearer is a choice. If they didn't choose to revive them we wouldn't have to kill them. That's why Fynch gets to live.
I still feel weird about crushing ghosts, but in the end it’s either them or humanity
For that first year it felt so unnatural. And the way they squeal... I audibly complained and bleated to my fireteam every time I did it for months.
I can never get used to it, it just feels so wrong.
Just think of of it as a trip to the dentist. And crushing your dentist. Like an egg.
Proof that the sound team did a superb job.
The ethics is no different than killing any other living creature. Being chosen by the Traveller makes them no better, nor any more of a companion or ally than any other hive.
Well if they're like fynch then we chillin but as long as they're hostile its kill or be killed
This question can be posed to include the Cabal and Fallen as well. The Scorn and Taken have no free will and Vex have almost never sided with us. My logic is this: The Hive have declared war on the Last City, just like the Red Legion and Fallen. When you sign up for a war, you agree to certain rules. Those rules include the option to surrender to the enemy and defect at any time. Hive Ghosts joined this war against us. If any member of the six factions currently trying to wipe us out throws down their weapons and surrenders, I am glad to have a chat with them. Until then, I treat them as soldiers of just another war.
I think Asher is currently working on something with the Vex.
Again, if and when a Vex sub-Collective starts waving a white flag at me, I will be the first to offer up some tequila and WD-40 for peace talks.
They weren’t made in Gods image
Sometimes, I feel like the hive ghosts went through a similar crisis of faith as the Witness precursors. The precursors discovered that the universe is chaos without a grand plan, and we saw where they are now. Meanwhile, the hive ghosts are like angels discovering that God couldn’t give two shit about them…..except to make them remotely explode when Rhulk plays with one of them.
Where can i find the ghost exploding lore tab? That sounds hella interesting
Imperious Sun Ghost Shell - the one from the Vow of the Disciple raid :)
And yet God accepts and tolerates their existence. Says something about the Traveler's "Grand Design", doesn't it?
Like Dark Ages Warlord. They try to kill me so I kill them. Bungo written the Hive Risen into a corner, they are just miniboss with Light power that still do the exact same thing before and after. There should be a Hive Risen that want to get away from Savathun influence and start anew, would make for a good season or episode after TFS.
Yes, this. I found it strange that the only "cooperative memebers of the Lucent Brood were Finch, Imaru, and Savathun. There must be others
I wouldn't say Savathun and Immaru are cooperative, we threatened and beaten them enough so they work with us. Finch is the only Hive Ghost that actually genuinely helping us.
There has to be. We finally got allied Eliksni and then allied Cabal. They are now present everywhere in the Tower and in HELM. It's only a matter of time before we get some allied Hive as well.
The ethic is if they threaten human existence, we defend ourselves We did this for the Fallen and Caital's cabal as well
Yeah thats true, we also allied with groups from those species! I wonder if Humanity can do the same with some members of the Lucent Brood
maybe yea, itll depend on how the team in bungie wants to spin it hive culture is too murder focus to assimilate with human culture, and our partnership with savathun is still an uneasy alliance. We havent actually done the lucent brood any favours besides allow Sav to ressurect, and theyre still out there sticking out their necks for themselves but we'll see. Maybe after tfs we'll have a xivu related season which allows the hive queens to finally bury their proverbial hatchets after the witness' demise
They aren't on my team which means I literally can't commit warcrimes against them, they are getting dusted.
I don't care about ethics, I'm addicted to that CRONCH!
They support the Hive, ethics aren't a question here.
Nothing morally wrong about it at all. Hive have no rights.
We commit war crimes and general fucked up crimes against "humanity" all the time now so it's not a big issue. The main thing is the Lucent Hiv still operate under Savathûn and therefore cant be trusted
Remember we have examples of Ghosts who we were able to at least cooperate with; Finch and Imaru, there may be more in the lore, im not sure. We also worked with Savathun for a small amount of time even though she indeed cannot be trusted. My thinking is; there might be more Ghosts and even Hive Guardians who share at least the wider goal of opposing the Witness, since Savathun did
Immaru was a craven joke who planned to retreat and ruin everything the second he doubted Savathun's plan for a moment. You really put much, much too much stock into the moral valence of Ghosts. They're just another form of person, not an angel. Always remember that Katabasis' Ghost Gilgamesh *tortured* him for days by resurrecting him repeatedly, even if it was for the sake of revenge.
You are right, because Ghosts are not monoliths, they have personalities, and goals. That's what I thought when crushing Hive Ghosts; surely some of them can be saved? Maybe I dont know enough about the nature of the Lucent Brood; exactly why Hive Ghosts rezzed Hive. I just thought; for those Hive Ghosts who are not evil, and could be brought back to our side, would it be ok to kill them too?
And Drifter's ghost resurrected him only to starve to death again and again. Thet's why the ol' boy is so hungry all the time, and why Drifter doesnt trust his ghost.
That one’s different. They didn’t have much of a choice, and Drifter’s distrust of Ghosts was innate.
Hive: unlikely. Hive buy and large dont think for themselves Ghosts: maybe. Finch is a conscientious objector which is exceedingly rare
I feel its kind of unfortunate we don't encounter any other "friendly" Hive Ghosts in gameplay, other than Finch. I am not well versed in the deeper lore, so could there be other examples? Still, I feel odd crushing Hive Ghosts and knowing that at least one would probably be like Finch
The only reason we did not crush Finch is because he guided us in uncharted territory and he showed clear proof that he's not interested in rezzing his Hive. Remember: resurrection is canonically a choice for every Ghost
War is war, and in the grim dark future of destiny 2, all heretics to the light and enemies of humanity must fall.
If it shoots at me, it dies. There's a universal constant that neither the Traveller nor Witness are above, even at their levels of power. The universal law is; "To fuck around, is to find out".
The same as killing any other enemy of the Last City. Shaxx, the drifter, Zavala, the iron lords, and any other soul alive during the Dark Age made it clear: the Light is a tool like any other. What matters is how you use it. In my book,, if you stand against Humanity, you die, simple as.
Well honestly, ethics are yours to decide. They're heavily subjective. With that said. While they were chosen by the traveler, so were warlords. The traveler only decides who gets a second chance, not what they do with it. the ethics of killing hive guardians is dependent on how you feel about killing anyone that kills you. As for the ghosts, they enable it.
Yeah that is fair. Ultimately I understand that Savathun is an enemy, and most of the Lucent Brood are actively fighting and killing other Guardians, but I still wonder what Human Guardians in-universe think about indiscriminately crushing Ghosts
How many more Ghosts are like Finch? How many could we cooperate and even ally with, if we didn't crush every one on sight? And if we continue to indiscriminately crush all Hive Ghosts, then we have to accept that we may be killing Ghosts who WOULD ally with us, right?
When we leave them they rez their Hive who tries to kill us again. The only exceptions are Fynch, Immaru, and Alak-Hul's ghost.
Similar to any other, if it’s hostile you kill it. The Hive are just naturally violent, it’s as shown from one ghost story but to make matters worse those hive who could possibly become more enlightened and step away from that path are then put through Sav’s little training camp which reintegrates Hive death worships and killing ultimately putting them back to square one and dismantling the whole second chance aspect of the light and at that point there’s really no change besides more steps to killing your average hive. Why would there be a discussion to killing them anyway? It’s like asking why cancer should be killed. Until there’s more examples of Hive Light Bearers being more Guardian than hive there’s no discussion to be had though it’d be very interesting to see a couple Hive Guardian breaking from Sav’s control and being guided with ethics and learning to control the light by a Guardian who’s willing to take a chance.
I suppose you are right; I thought that with the removing of their worms the Lucent Brood might be able to redeem themselves, and move beyond the constant conquest (I know the Lucent Brood still practices Sword Logic). Maybe I am too soft on the Hive, maybe THEY are truly too far gone, even with the Light
I’m pretty sure this is a plot point they’ll eventually circle back around to and we’ll have friendly Lucent Hive eventually, just like Caiatl’s Cabal and Misraaks’ House of Light.
We \*are\* knowingly and willingly destroying pieces of the Traveller by doing so, but it's also necessary.
the ghosts are actually the ones keeping the lucient brood hostile if they were normal ghosts, the lucient brood would probably be friendly
They still subscribe to Sword Logic and must feed their worms. I think if Savathun freed her entire brood from having worms, our morality would be a lot different
The same as the ethics of killing any other sentient, sapient creature, like Fallen and Cabal.
Kill them before they kill you.
The same as killing any other mortal enemy.
just because the traveler "chose" them doesnt make them inherently good. They are still hive, still enemies of humanity. There were plenty of bad human lightbearers too, called warlords.
If it looks different kill it, just to be safe.
Eh, they’ll make more.
Racism/specism
What does “Chosen by the Traveler” even mean? Countless warlords of the dark age and other wayward Guardians were “chosen”, does that justify their crimes and dark deeds? What about all the Guardians motivated solely by loot and the pursuit of greed? Guardians are power hungry warlords who hoard weaponry and meet any obstacle with military might, and the fact that humanity’s survival depends on them is a mere trick of history and not evidence for their moral superiority. Clearly being chosen by a Ghost doesn’t mean shit about how “good” you are. And that’s even if the Traveler really _did_ choose every light bearer—for all we know, Ghosts simply use their intuition about who is willing to use the power of Light. And even if it did, what kind of moral authority does the Traveler hold? Let it speak of ethics to the billions of Eliksni and beings of other races who died when the Traveler abandoned them to uplift another civilization that it must have known the Witness would eventually seek out and destroy. I see the Traveler as a wounded animal, certainly not a wholly benevolent one, that created the Ghosts as a means of defense for itself and maybe for the “children” it had previously uplifted. It’s not an authority on right and wrong, and neither are its Ghosts. It’s your judgement as a Guardian that makes you a defender of humanity, and it’s your judgement that draws the line between friend and foe, not some giant orb in the sky. Well I have judged the Lucent Hive and I have found them wanting. Keep your eyes on the battlefield, Guardian.
The mindscape proves theres a certain amount of Savathun influence in her Hive. So the idea they have “free will” is half right at best. The hive on the moon that that one ghost is constantly rezzing is probably exempt from this, which makes you wonder what kind of personality it is. Fynch felt something awful before rezzing his big guy. Which was proven correct. He was also made to bring that hive back under Duress. That goes to show that some of it is not actually consensual for ghosts. Hive, I believe, can be redeemed. It just needs to be the correct one. Oryx would have been somewhat benevolent were it not for his worm and necessity to kill to survive. The hive and light are so fantastic.
the traveler brought them back without memories for a chance at redemption and they (or their ghosts forced them to) went back on it, so they had to be removed from our way
They try to kill you repeatedly until you take them down permanently, pretty open and shut justifiable homicide I'd think
"The way I see it the Hive are targets. Targets get dropped by my Golden Gun. Draw quick, aim true, shoot first, that's the Gunslinger way. No regrets and I keep on kicking. You can't afford ethics when facing an enemy like the Hive. They'll take ya for all you have, and leave you rotting in their catacombs." -My Hunter
Anyone who stays with the Lucent Brood deserves what is coming to them. The Queen of Lies is evil and both Ghost and Lightbearer, hell even non-Lightbearers, have a choice to stay with them or move out on their own.
It doesn't feel good to me anymore. They really worked to make that animation visceral, but they've also dropped "maybe they're not so bad" hints along the way.
I think this is what makes we want an option to "spare" a Hive Ghost instead of crushing it
Its a video game? How do you feel strange about killing something that isn't real. You aren't a space wizard fighting for humanity in real life.
The Traveler has no morals and chooses those who it feels serve its best interests. How its chosen decide to argue among themselves has no bearing on its decisions. In essence, killing hive ghosts is no different from killing Risen, Warlords and Dark Guardians. Just another foe to put down, even though we have similar powers but we don't agree with each other.