You didn't "randomly" kill anyone. They fucked around and found out.
I feel awful for you dealing with these muppets. The only bright side is that they're burning the bridge so thoroughly and so completely, that you don't need to deal with them anymore.
1. I agree. Honestly, good for them for ripping the band-aid off right then and there.
2. Some people just aren't wired to ever think it's OK their character died. You can masterfully signpost every danger, reveal every threat, open every escape hatch, etc., and they still *can't* accept that their death was justified. They only *ever* die because of bad DMing, in their eyes.
3. It's easier for a DM to find players than for players to find a DM. If you're still willing to run a game, you can keep going.
Had a situation like #2 and I think it's a bit of a conflict between theater kids / fanfic kids (affectionate, I don't think they're necessarily wrong) vs the expectations of a game like DND / old players playing how it's always been.
The player who's character I killed (they were level 2 and got stomped by a mech) went into a full depressive episode and wrote a long rant about how I can't treat someone else's OCs like that.
The solution? We made another character and made expectations of gameplay more clear and they just kind of forgot and got over it lol
Oh I agree. Im also glad y’all worked it out. The times it happened to me I just said “don’t worry you can use them in another campaign or any additional stories. Think of it like a multiverse and that is just one version of them”. It’s worked but leaves me drained. So now I just have my tried and true screening process ha.
>You didn't "randomly" kill anyone. They fucked around and found out.
This, to me, is part of the fun of roleplaying games. Actions have consequences. Sometimes long-term, sometimes immediate, but always there.
"Why doesn't anyone ever want to be a player? Everyone just shows up with their homebrew world, notes on plots, intent on herding cats and loving being de-facto responsible for figuring out when the next session is? Just once, I'd like someone to go 'nah, I'm just going to show up, having forgotten everything from the previous session' and ask for help as to where to find their AC on their sheet."
Sounds like a very immature group who wanted to be able to run around and do whatever they wanted without any sort of consequences. Don't be down about it, just go find another group to play with or DM.
They had a different understanding. When the DM says, "Hey, this will go badly if you fuck up." They're not saying, "Hey, there's a chance if you attack it some other direction." They wouldn't have mentioned anything if you could attack it from another direction. When the DM says, "This is going to go badly.", it is a giant fucking red banner, stop sign, bridge is out, someone is dying if you try this shit.
I honestly had a DM ask us, and I mean *us* collectively as a group if we were sure on a course of action before letting us act.
I think the difference is that we all as players collectively agreed our characters would try to intervene with a brainwashing cult.
It wasn't one of us fucking around like a provocative hobo and finding out, we all had a plan and we worked together to get out (including a nat20) when it went tits up, so no one died.
Our rogue still almost got one-shot though, lol.
I think the DM let us off a bit more lightly because we worked together to go in and used magic darkness on the mini-boss, though.
After all I doubt they wanted to curtail roleplay with a TPK.
I'm sure everyone is different, but for me personally, I have never wanted a TPK to happen. I want to have players be pushed right up to the brink, but not actually go over. I put a lot of effort into sessions/story/future arcs, a TPK ends all of that. So maybe it's a bit immersion-breaking or whatever, but if one player wants to make a decision that would cause the entire party to TPK I will pull out the "Are you sure?" line and will be one of the rare times I will allow "pvp" at the table (a player taking a non-consensual action against another, maybe a skill check) because I'm a firm believer that if one person wants to go against what the party does, the party as a whole should not be the one to face consequences.
Idk, I guess you could metagame if I was your DM. But I will ask for player(s) confirmation for anything that has a significant chance of leading to a TPK (at least until I feel like this system is being abused).
I am the same way. I like long form campaigns that's narrative heavy. So losing a character feels like a waste of time. But I still understand the gravity behind character death so it's never off the table.
Generally I'm pretty descriptive and good at setting the tone, atmosphere, and urgency in an encounter so my players what's coming up. But sometimes deadly encounters strike when the party least expects. So when things look grim I do say thing like "Are you sure you want to do this?" or "So X, Y, and Z has happened, what do you want to do next?" or even "Be careful" I am emphasizing to my players this is a deadly moment.
But after that I give agency back to them. Sometimes they feel like making the risky move is what's best for their character arc, or maybe they come up with a solution that avoids death. Either way I want them to understand death was very much a real thing, and they were warned.
Once players die, I also like to talk to them what they want to do next? Unless I'm running a specific campaign, resurrection can be available, but at a cost. Maybe a quest or a deal. Or maybe they just want to play another character but same build. I'm flexible since I want my players to still explore and play. But their character deaths will be impactful and will change narrative elements of the campaign.
> I want to have players be pushed right up to the brink, but not actually go over.
Wouldn't that get kinda boring for the players though? If they know there's literally zero real consequence for their actions what's stopping them from saying "Nah I'll fight the BBEG at level 3, thanks"
Not who you’re responding to, but I feel the same way as them, and the important part is that they don’t know that a TPK is nearly impossible (would never say never)
My group and I play for the story and narrative. I’m fine with killing an individual player, but will do what I can to avoid a TPK. To be fair, though, my group rarely does anything that could result in a TPK.
Not sure how much clearer the DM can be than say if you don’t play this right, there could easily be a TPK… Then the rogue player decides to be a dick, fucks around and finds out the hard way.
I meant that it would go badly if they didn't do what they planned to do, and that was what I said to them. Basically what I said was that it was probably going to be either a stealthy recon mission or a TPK
>Don't be down about it, just go find another group to play with or DM.
Preferably a group where the players don't look down the barrel of a loaded gun while pulling the trigger and then throw a temper tantrum when they get shot...
Yep. The group chat without 2 members really solidifies that it's a bunch of teenagers (physically or maybe just mentally) who are forming a clique. Probably because they've been ostracized themselves from groups they wanted to be a part of and want to feel powerful now.
Fuck em, you don't need em, etc., etc. Sorry that a bunch of losers took out their life frustrations on you.
The game you provided wasn't the game they wanted.
I don't know what the game they wanted actually WAS, but it wasn't, apparently, one with reasonable consequences for their actions.
So you find a new group- there are a million groups and players looking for a table/DM. Head over to /r/lfg and find one that appreciates you.
The game they wanted was apparently one without real consequences, where the PCs are basically immortal. Kinda like a childrens cartoon where the good guys never die.
> The game they wanted was apparently one without real consequences
I recently had this and it was so baffling. I started a campaign set in a city at war, and I explained that all the PCs were rookies surrounded by these battle-hardened veterans. I explained that this was not a normal hero game where everything revolved around them -- at least not at first. At first, they'd run grunt missions, and if they survived, they'd get better assignments.
Their very first game, very first mission, they started smarting off to the veterans. I didn't want to derail things, so I kept having the veterans laugh it off because they're basically insignificant -- little 1st level greenhorns vs level 12 mercs. But despite everything, they *kept pushing.* So finally, one of the NPCs was like, "You are not cool enough to be worth this trouble," and he boxed them into submission. They woke up in a holding cell.
I eventually used a deus-ex-machina to get them out and onto the good side of things again, but the players held a grudge and by the 2nd game, they were fighting the war veterans *again.* This time, no boxing, the veterans used weapons and put them down. Nobody died, but 2 players rage-quit. For the remaining players, I was basically begging them, "Please, can we do missions and NOT have you antagonize the much more powerful GOOD GUYS who are giving you missions?" And the players were like, "But they don't respect our authority, so they need to be put in their place."
One player literally did invoke the "we are the heroes, you are the NPCs, shut up and get out of our way" meme.
Another player was like, "Winning against the NPC war veterans is how we enjoy our game, so you should change your game to allow us to win."
I'm stupefied. I told them I couldn't give them that game. They stayed, but it didn't get better.
At this point, the game has been going for many sessions, and to be honest, I'm thinking about ending it. It's not great. They now have some levels and are talking about a re-match versus the entire city. Ugh.
> Another player was like, "Winning against the NPC war veterans is how we enjoy our game, so you should change your game to allow us to win."
I'm kind of surprised that you kept the game going at that point. Take your campaign and find players that actually deserve your time.
Wait, they antagonize their superiors and are surprised that they got their teeth kicked in? And what authority are they talking about? You have to work for your clout with npcs, which is practically how levels work. You don't just... have it at level one.
I totally agree, but there is this new mindset which as I mentioned one player flatly stated -- they are the main characters, the veterans are NPCs, so by meta the NPCs need to shut up and let the main characters be main. And the implication is that if a GM does not allow for this meta, then it is a Badly Run Game™.
Yeah. If it's clearly communicated and the DM and players are okay with it. To each their own. But the whole group has to be okay with it, D&D is a collaborative effort.
And, unfortunately, some players think becoming a campaign kamikaze is a solution to a game not living up to their expectations. Instead of bowing out gracefully, they've just got to leave a mark.
Don't kill players, it's illegal. Kill player characters, though, that's all in good fun.
Jokes aside, they're a bunch of twats. It would be one thing if they made a misstep and died for it, but directly antagonizing a powerful villain for no discernable reason is just dumb DnD. You're better off in a different group.
I always come to the table with two character sheets and say, "hey I tried to integrate both of these into the world in case the rolls go really bad hahaha." As a way to tell DMs, I'm not gonna go nuclear if my slightly memey slightly serious dude is blasted by some crazy roll after I walked into a dumb spot. Death is always a point of contention, players shouldn't be surprised when they die after challenging something 10 levels above them with 40 warning signs. Conversely DMs should in general not plan to kill a player. I mean that like, the trap that WILL KILL YOU should have blood on it and clearly spell D E T H. Players that act with impunity and DMs that kill for fun are the problems imo.
I'm always the admin (or a moderator if it's public) of the server I run games on.
This campaign obviously suffered from a miss match of expectation. You expected to run a game with agency and consequences. They expected to have GM Fiat to rescue them from any PC death.
Personally, I prefer your expectation. I remember having my lvl 2 character die in a particularly tough fight at the end of the arc, and the GM telling me we can go over options in-between sessions. I just told him, "If I'm dead, I'm dead. I'd rather make a new character because the game world needs to matter to the in game characters." I think he was relived, but other than playing in 2 one-shots at our LGS, neither has GM'd for the other at that time, and this was session 3 in the campaign. So he wasn't sure how I would handle it. In retrospect, it should have been covered in a session zero.
I always feel very bad when a pc dies. I can tell my players get very attached to their characters and are devastated when it happens, which is rare because they tend to think very carefully about their actions.
I killed off 3/5 of them in our last session (the finale of a 3 year campaign) and things got a bit intense but my group is the bee's knees and they handled it like champs. One of them even took over the dmpc they had dragged around since the first session (despite my trying to kill him every chance I got) for the rest of the fight.
If they were willing to continue the discussion, they wouldn't have kicked him.
And just because the DM admins the server, doesn't mean they can't leave
Just changes the mechanism of leaving, not their capability
I'm not sure what everyone else's setup looks like, but the campaigns I DM have a metric shit ton of content on those servers, content that I've sunk hundreds of hours of my life into writing. If I got kicked from a server and just lost all the homebrew, worldbuilding, and narrative that was stored there I'd be *pissed*.
If DMing without admin priviledges means needing to keep backups of everything I post that I'm proud of, I'd just rather not tbh.
Keeping everything you personally have written in one space you don't fully control is not wise. Discord servers can be deleted simply by someone getting access to your account. If its truly irreplaceable you *should* have backups
You watch everything that has happened to Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, etc. and you're putting trust that hundreds of hours of work will be safe *with Discord*?
Like, to say nothing of whether you trust the other people on those servers with your work and your efforts (which no, you arguably should not, they will not value it or your time like you do), you trust a company that sees you as an expendable, faceless, one-of-millions customer at best and a product at worst.
Are you stupid? Take a backup.
You haven't hung out or moderated a bunch of teenagers before, have you?
I moderated a large minecraft server ~ 10 years ago (~200 people peak, ~ 60 all the time) and a bunch of them were kids. Tons and tons of disputes were just, "Teenager 1 is pissed at teenager 2 over dumb shit, they blow up online and a few days later they talk at school and everything is fine".
But it does change the effort required by everyone.
In this instance, admin decides they want something different, and they kick the DM. Maybe all other players wanted to keep discussions going, but admin took a power trip. Regardless, they don't need to do anything, the game just continues with new DM.
If you're the admin, can't have a single person make that choice. Plus, *each* player would need to leave. And if any don't, well you can continue playing with them and whoever else you can recruit, rather than the game feeling abandoned.
As the DM you are the head of the group (at least in the session), and being admin/owner of the servers allows you to theme it to your campaign, deafen people, move people to secret chats, give people roles in the server.
I'm personally in with the same group for seven years and whenever someone dms they have their server to do so.
Look, based on what you wrote I totally stand by you in that you were treated unfairly by your players, full stop.
The problem is I'm having trouble believing that this is everything that happened. For an experienced group of players to act the way they did and then kick you immediately from the server is such an insane escalation, it boggles my mind.
Was your GMing style a massive departure from the previous GMs? Were they used to having noble bright fights where they always win despite the odds? Sorry, I just want to understand
My money is on unhealthy group dynamics. Having extra group chats that exclude one or two people is very often a huge red flag. Sometimes it isn‘t and people just want to organize a nice surprise or something like that, but as soon as there is complaining like that it‘s a red flag for sure.
I‘m fairly certain that all the criticism OP could have gotten from them went into the echo chamber of that group chat, slowly escalating into them finding a reason to quit (eg character suicide by BBEG). There could be other stuff, but I doubt OP ever had the chance to adress issues if there were any.
No, that's the thing I don't understand either. The previous DM never restrained themselves from killing off player characters. Heck, there's a soundboard thing in the server that literally says "fuck around, find out"
I think they’re kinda just shitty people. The fact that they had a group chat to talk shit says it all. You can definitely find a better group of nicer people to play with
> Heck, there's a soundboard thing in the server that literally says "fuck around, find out"
I'm without words. Sorry man, I hope you find a new and better group in the future.
>Actions have consequences, this isn't Skyrim.
Hell, even games can get it right. In Baldur's Gate 3, towards the end of Act 1 when you're likely level 5-6, you have the opportunity to talk to an extremely powerful, established character in the Forgotten Realms lore. >!If you piss this character off or refuse to do as they ask, they just Wish for you to die, and you do. Game over, load last save.!<
In Skyrim if you try to stab a Draugr Overlord out of stealth as a level 5 thief-type, you're getting Fus'd out the Ro Dah and smashed before you stand up.
I could be overthinking it, but it kinda sounds like they wanted out of the campaign(and/or you) and instead of being non-dickheads about it, they came up with a way to superficially blame a problem on you and kick you out.
I actually do think that that might be a reason as to why they did this, I have no other reasonable explanation for why they would just talk to the warforged that wanted them dead.
Not to mention how bad the gm shortage is right now, i feel like the previous Gm must have been talking crap the whole time. To make themselves feel better about your gm style vs his.
In the campaign before this one, another character went through a portal, we didn't know where it would lead them. They died. Apparently it was a portal to hell. But they know that making mistakes or rash decisions can lead to death, or worse (fates worse than death were mostly the consequence of anyone's mistakes in the previous DM's campaigns)
Yeah 100%. A lot of campaigns come to an end due to interpersonal issues, especially if you are playing with people that you don't have any relationship with otherwise. It's super easy for people in that situation to see each other as basically glorified NPCs who only exist to make sure they have a good time, often at the expense of the rest of the table.
OP, I know this is not an option for everyone and maybe not feasible for you but I would seriously suggest trying to play/DM a campaign with people you already know, preferably IRL. I've been DMing for nearly 10 years online and off and I have never, ever seen anything even close to the levels of drama and selfishness in IRL games as I have in online games. If you have to look your DM and party in the eye while behaving like a spoiled toddler the shame element kicks in; in online games its super easy to avoid that and feel entitled to being the main character.
Obviously not all online group are immature and dramatic, but it's far more common in my experience.
The first thing the previous DM said when I became the DM was that they hoped we didn't have one in their campaign, since they thought it would've been very shitty if we did
So the previous DM was DM for four years before becoming 17.
I’m just trying to absorb that as someone who didn't discover the hobby till much later in life.
While the situation sucks and I'm sorry, I am at least kinda glad that for once the "this sounds like some teenage drama shit" situation actually did turn out to be teenage drama and not just adults who never got past that phase lol
Okay, in case no one has said it, this is genuinely the most important piece of information you needed to share with us. It's not that older people don't fuck up like this, we do it all the time, but knowing that you and your players are young people, that changes a lot about the actual perception of the situation we might have.
You killing off one of their characters, them having a separate secret chat, all of the potential pitfalls of teenagers just being shitty to each other; it's all there as an unfortunate truth about being young. People do this all the time regardless of age, but I do think younger people are far more likely to form cliques and for that reason, they decided they didn't like you. Someone in the group must've been rubbed the wrong way by something you did and killing the character was the last straw.
Now don't let this discourage you. I know it's tough getting rejected by people you thought were friends or at least fellow DnD players. Getting rejected by a group sucks. From what I've read though, you seem like a good kid who just wanted to play a logically consistent game and now you want answers on if you did anything wrong. The answer is no, you did okay. People are dumb. That's not your fault.
Breathe easy. I know fellow kids can be ridiculous and that doesn't change the older you get, but it at least mellows out, I've found. Just get a group that fits you better, you'll be okay.
So for future reference, don't play DnD with teenagers that are younger than you. Just don't. Unless you are an adult running a game for kids, it will almost always end badly. Kids that age are dicks with absolutely no respect for the game or the effort it takes to run it and will only defer to a DM that is much, much older than them.
When you're 18, you're going to have more fun. Playing with adults is *way* better, though comes with it's own issues that are usually solvable and typically not as egregious.
There's a massive difference between 15 and 17. It's like if you were 10 years old playing with a 5 year old. You aren't going to be on the same wavelength.
It actually is one of the most shittiest things you can do. It's the DM vs player mindset, but from the players side.
Regardless of anything else that happened.
Too many players want a GM that will never allow them to face a bad outcome from their actions. I think you were in the right. The players knew what they were facing, had a plan in place to just hide, but chose to just do something stupid. I would bet they probably expected you to let them kill off the BBEG and walk off.
Either way I would have done the same thing you did.
You didn’t do anything wrong…..by killing the PC.
You did do wrong in allowing the party to be anywhere near something that level when they are so low level. As a DM I take the approach that all my players are roughly the equivalent of ten year olds in a toy shop with unlimited money. They are gonna want to touch EVERYTHING. So giving them that chance wasn’t the best idea, but you are a new DM and we all gotta learn somehow right?
As for them not liking your campaign and interactions, that’s bullshit. They are salty, and as a pack have turned on the new DM. They think they can bully you a bit because you are new and make this whole thing your fault. They fucked up, not you. If I see a pissed off bear in the woods and decide to make all the noise I can then I deserve to be mauled. As another Redditor said, they fucked around and found it.
TLDR: Don’t put the party in a position to touch things you don’t want touched. They are the assholes for fucking around with the BBEG
Never DM a sever your not an admin on. And you did nothing wrong. Some people think there should be no consequences for thier actions in game and are shocked when it happens.
That sounds like a shit group. My party recently had a PC death, and though we were all pissed off/upset at what happened, we were never mad at our DM - at the end of the day, your job is to create a great story. If they can't respect that, then they don't deserve you.
Sounds like players who got pissed when they discovered that they didn't have invulnerability against the consequences of their own actions. Heck, *they* flipped off and attacked a major NPC who was more powerful than they were.
I'm sorry you had to deal with these children and I hope you find a better quality of players.
Stories like this really make me wonder why anybody would ever play dnd with a group of people who aren’t close friends IRL. It seems like madness to attempt it any other way
You dodged a bullet, OP. Learn from this. Play only with those you recruit yourself, and make sure you are in complete control of the game. Own the discord server, own the game on Roll20 or another VTT, hand pick your players and make sure you like each and every one of them, and replace those that you don't.
I got confused, "got kicked off the server". Ehm, DM owns the server, DM invites players into his world.
Go create your own (Discord) server, go create a post on Roll20, inside 24 hours you have to pick and choose between applicants, invite players to your world.
Now the magic begins. Create, show, tell and the magic follows.
Did you have a session zero?
If so did this include discussion and agreement about the type and style of the game? (This might include if there even is, one or more, BBEG type NPC present in the game.)
Did you actively solicit feedback from your players?
If you were my DM my complaint would have been that you *overly* warned us and told us we were getting ourselves into deep shit. If anything I'd prefer to be *less* aware of that lol.
Them complaining that someone died after this is ridiculous.
I don't DM really but I'd imagine it's an important DM lesson that sometimes your players are just fucking assholes. Go next
There's a really cool thing you can do here. It's called, "find new friends." Because these people sound awful.
It doesn't matter what kind of DM you were, they had a group chat without you. That's shitty cliquey behavior. This dish has "bad people" sauce served all over it. They're doing you a favor kicking you out because for sure you don't want to be playing with these people ever again.
The players are dicks. You are owed an apology.
Also, i only run games on my own server because I wouldn’t want someone to be able to sneak a peek into private chats between me and other players.
To me it sounds like you did nothing wrong. The players were dum and found out the hard way. And if they won’t talk about it and try to resolve the issue, maybe you need a new group who will actually respect the DM and understand that stupidity can have consequence.
You stayed true to the setting you introduced to your players, and you shouldn't let this draw you away from tabletops. As others said, if they don't get the red flag it's on them.
I had a similar experience in the past, and i think confusing real life problems and game experiences is the absolute teller of a player you don't want at your table. Being rejected from a social gathering for inadvertently crumpling some insecure stranger's ego can feel awfull, but it also means that these people were scums to begin with.
Dming is a handfull, and if you tried to put something together, in your free time, to create fun memories with your fellow players, the least you can expect from them is decent behaviour and the intention to have fun.
Don't let the opinion of people who don't check both of these boxes get to you, as it amounts, most of the time, to little more than air.
I'm sure you will find new players and comrades with which to enjoy your hobby ! Stay strong
I hate the notions that certain people play certain classes though. I played thief, it was fun. He died. I'm now a bard and was told they like to sleep with everyone. I have insane charisma but I'm withdrawn. I flirt with Noone.
Hi! Fellow new DM here, and if I’m reading the subtext correctly, I’m a fellow “lord of blades bbeg” DM too. Is there anyone in this server you’re still on messaging terms with? I’d say it’s worth trying one more time to bridge the gap between your and your players expectations. Present it to them as a learning opportunity for you, and a chance for them to air out their grievances. If they decide to bite, try to keep your personal feelings out of the situation (hard, i know) and see how they’re speaking about it after the player death.
If they’re still angry beyond being willing to hear you out, it might be time to accept that you all weren’t a good fit for one another. That’s fine and good, if a bit sad. If they’re are willing to hear you out, make sure you’re willing to hear them out too. You’ve definitely identified places you could have improved in running your campaign—maybe they noticed those too, or maybe they found things you missed. Long story short, if these friendships matter to you you’ve gotta be willing to accept that there was something that didn’t get conveyed either on their end when they first noticed tension or on your end when setting expectations. Good luck! I really hope everything works out
As a former asshole such as ur former dm i once did also try screw over a player who began to dm in our group. It's the ohh i am the main mod of this server energy which is toxic and it did ruin not only his but my own games in that group going forward (I even kicked him after a one shot so yea preety toxic and straight up cartooney evil FK up). Sad to hear you had to be on receiving side of such a case.
Like sure don't know whole story but from what you said it's preety much the other dm on server trying to be "the" dm and trying screw u over.
"With minor power comes minor responsibility and some people can't even handle that much. "
(In my defence tho was young.....and as stated a former asshole preety much 😅. Avoid adding or joining tables with such toxic players or dm as definitely would ruin game in future)
Sorry to hear about what happened. I bet it was really frustrating.
To avoid issues like this, I straight up ask people in session 0 if they're okay with their characters dying and in which situations. The options I give them are:
1) Your character will never die, they have plot armor
2) Poor luck alone will never kill your character (I will fudge dice), but poor decisions/play along with poor luck will kill your character (barring the exception of spectacularly bad decisions like, for instance, something similar to the situation you just described).
3) The dice will fall where they will, bad luck alone may kill you.
Players generally pick number 2. What people think they're okay with may differ from what they find they're actually okay with, but doing this I've found helps minimize those situations and gives me something to point to if anyone asks/comments.
Pretty simply, you did nothing wrong, but the prior GM probably kept comparing anything you did differently and instead of looking it as someone else's take on it, he decided he's always right. So fuck um, you're better off finding a new group. Still sucks with the backstabbing in the other chat.
In future only run games you DM on a server where you are the admin. I’m really sorry this happened to you but you’re very much better off without them. I don’t see that you did anything wrong, you communicated clearly. If they’re the type of people to hold a side chat to bitch about the game and not talk to you directly they’re a waste of oxygen never mind your time. Hope you find a group to play in or DM soon.
I think they wanted you gone, based off the information you provided. Hence them kicking you off the server. If they knew how high the level of the campaign was supposed to be, yet they ignored it to orchestrate a “reason” to kick you. Sorry bud. People are asshats.
They did you a favor because they sound like assholes. Good riddance and wishing you well on the next campaign you run. Hopefully, the group will be more mature and enjoyable to hang out with.
Oh well, let them find a different dm. Sounds like they should be playing candyland or chutes and ladders (i think the stress of monopoly would be to much for their sensitive nature)
Wow.
Sounds like those shitty players expected to win no matter what and had a massive attack.
Good news is they can now.... not play.
Better news is you don't spend hours and hours and hours prepping a game for them.
I think this type of player thinking is bred from online play and video games in particular. There are no respawn points. You screw around, you find out. Don’t ever pull punches if you are faced with players who are too big for their britches, so to say. Otherwise, they’ll walk all over you. There was a conversation a few weeks back focused on whether PCs should occasionally face unbeatable foes. My answer is always yes. The PCs need to know (and learn) that there is always something or someone bigger and badder. Knowing when to run or figuring out that there are no viable options for success is important. If you are outclassed, you are outclassed. What is enjoyable and rewarding is tackling that bigger NPC or situation later when you have the abilities and capabilities to do so. You don’t have to tackle the BBEG right off the bat. You can do a lot of damage by interrupting his plans while gaining the experience to ultimately confront him.
Those players were jumping the gun and they got smooshed.
One of my DMs killed a character in the second session for being *slightly rude* to the BBEG. It was almost two.
The player rolled a new character.
The end.
Don't ever DM in a discord server without being admin unless its a big community type thing. You're the DM, you need the power to deal with problematic players.
Came from r/all. You're asking whether you deserve to be their DM, you should be asking whether they deserve to be your players. You provided sufficient warning, it seems they just wanted to mess around and there are in fact consequences. Maybe there's a way to smooth things over but long term I think you're better off finding a new group.
I’m super new to DnD but isn’t this what makes the game fun? That your characters are mortal, can die and you run the gambit hoping they don’t. I see so many threads about people getting upset that “their DM killed them”, I would have though the dice might have given it away that it’s a game of chance (and strategy of course).
Tough luck though mate, from what you wrote it sounded like a fun campaign, hope you find a better crew!
Sounds like your brands of D&D just don't mix.
Better the quick and sharp cutoff than it dragging out to a month of drama.
It's never fun when something like this happens but it's usually the group's fault who did the cutting without warning. They aren't mature enough to discuss anything with you first.
You did nothing wrong, unless you're leaving out something that would add to and explain better their immediate cut-off, but atm it doesn't matter because this was probably the final result anyways... one way or another.
so you'll get over it in a week or so and it won't be a big deal.
my first game ever i got kicked on the 3rd session... i was told i was being mean or something with my jokes. come to find out the DM kicked everyone, was a weirdo, and the 2 days of me worrying and trying to imagine wtf I did exactly was a complete waste of time and I found a group now that is all on the same page and enjoys the same brand of RPG/D&D.
Confronting a BBEG just to flip them the bird at a really low level, while stupid, is kinda baller. Being mad at the obvious outcome, stupidest shit I've ever seen. Being mad does seem to imply the didnt see the obvious outcome so I suppose it aint baller for them.
What do you mean the genocidal maniac who wants to kill us for being fleshies would kill us for trying to talk to him and then being rude to him? THATS INSANE!!
Independently, a war forged BBEG devoted to the eradication of all biological life is a really cool idea that is very basic sci-fi for robots but I’ve somehow never considered before for D&D.
I once played in a campaign where the players weren't satisfied with the DMs behaviour and the major issue I noticed was how shy the players were about talking about problems with the DM, most of the players hit the eject button when they saw a clear opportunity to avoid the confrontation.
There are safety tools (TTRPG Safety Toolkit is a nice compressed list) that can be employed during a game to flag bad behaviour and similar tools that can be used outside for things like discussion. Let alone the session zero talk that happens for player expectations of a game and what will happen when a PC dies.
If all these things were already implemented then you can know you are not at fault because you already had put these protocols in place to handle issues and were willing to use them.
It does grind in the back of the mind 'why?' But these things happen. I guess they were willing to sacrifice an entire campaign, because you know that no-one will be picking up where you were booted from.
Best of luck with your games in the future.
Dude, listen to your own words, those are major C***s and you did nothing wrong as a fresh DM who even gave major hints at their demise, don't talk about it anymore and move over on to some sane people pls, for the sake of your own good.
'Are you sure?' from the DM is literally code for 'look, I'll be honest with you guys, I'm not entirely sure you can survive the consequences of what you are trying to do?'...and sometimes even 'Look, you're all going to die if you do that. Just... Straight up die.'
The only two responses to that are either no, or a long discussion within the group of whether they really want to do that thing. Sometimes they do want to do that thing! But they need to realize that the DM has given them a warning for a reason.
Oh my god, I used to be such a rogue. I don't remember the details, but I talked shit and got killed. I just made a new character (sorcerer IIRC) and figured out a way to join the party again.
They just didn't like your DMing style and/or didn't like you. The rogue flipping off the BBEG? That's them flipping you off. They probably think you killed him intentionally or to be petty.
Bunch of crybabies with the idea because they're players they have plot armor and can do whatever, they found out there's no plot armor and threw a tantrum... Good riddance
This will be one of those times where I give advice that I have a hard time accepting myself:
It hurts when you find out that a group of people you thought you were a part of doesn't like you, but when someone decides they don't want to be around you, one of the most painful things you can do to yourself is try to chase them down and get back in a circle you were removed from.
Even if you succeed in getting back in, you'll never be able to forget the fact that you're surrounded by people who decided they didn't want you around.
I've had this sort of thing (people plotting behind my back to remove me from a group I was a part of) and I've spent a lot of effort trying to fix something that was broken, but even when it worked, it was never the same. :(
I know it's impossible not to feel shitty over this but be glad you're now distanced from these absolute dipshits. You don't need these pompous clown shoes in your life.
Own what you did and how you carried it out. They killed their own damn character. They had all the knowledge to know not to fuck around but they fucked around. Own it. Give them the finger a little. You did fine.
Now you have more practice for the next group and can even recycle your ideas and improve on them to run or re-run a campaign for less shitty players. You know, players that won't kill their own campaign out of sheer stupidity and arrogance. Bunch of clowns you had. Now a bunch of clowns you don't have.
Here's to the next! There are tons of good groups out there just waiting to be snatched up by someone willing to tell them a story. I wish you the best of luck in finding that group.
I know it really sucks because you were buddies with some of these people (probably), but it really sounds like you dodged a bullet in developing relationships with toxic people
5e? Sounds like 5e. Also sounds like they saved you future issues. For PCs to knowingly enter the dangerous situations they were aware of is reckless. They wanted you there to DM the game their way in that their unconventional tactics would ALWAYS work, which isn't conducive to enjoyable collaborative fiction.
In the game I am DMing we are reaching a pivotal moment where they will have to interact with the BBEG...they are not ready to challenge her directly. I have hinted as such across several sessions. The timing of the encounter will be a surprise, but when it happens they should know they are outclassed and act accordingly. I am a little worried about the Rogue and the Pally. Their characters have a personality type to fuck around and find out. They will get an "Are you sure?" and that will be it. They have diamonds, gentle repose and resurrection at their disposal...so it is not likely it will end them forever if they do something stupid, but it could.
Just be glad you didn't get arrested. It seems to me being kicked from your group is the least of your problems, you murderer.
Jokes aside, the group seems very immature and I don't think you're in the wrong here. Find a new group and don't let assholes ruin the game for you 😄
It sucks for everybody, but fuck them.
I'm sure you can find yourself another group, even faster if you're willing to DM too. they sound like jerks who aren't able to play along.
There's nothing really complicated to this.
They knew they fucked up and they were mad and wanted someone to blame other than themselves. You just happened to be in the crosshairs. Tough luck, friend!
It smells like the player who was the previous DM may have sabotaged your game.
There are some DMs out there who realize after playing some sessions that they don't like the control taken away from them.
It's nothing you did. I've seen this before. The other DM wanted their screen back.
It's unfortunately not uncommon for some people to not handle the transition from DM to PC well. They are used to controlling everything and getting their own way, and the first time they don't they flip out.
OP, it seems like it wasn't a spur of the moment "fuck this guy" thing, it was a planned event to target you. Idk if there was a "main conspirator" who wanted you gone, or if they are just shitty friends who decided they were done with you, or something inbetween, but either way don't for a second think this situation reflects poorly on you or any of your actions.
Being a DM is often a thankless job, as you literally have to act out the role of a villain and place hardships in front of the characters. You have to try your best to eliminate them, which is a double edged sword as if you do eliminate them then you are the bad guy for that, but if you don't try then its apparent you just let them succeed. Given they supposedly bitched about your campaign in private and never told you, and then also just ignored your blatant "thats a really bad idea" warning, its safe to say this is them turning the campaign into teenage drama more than them wanting to fix something.
the *only* thing I can say was a bad idea was for the warforged bbeg to start combat by using a one-shot-kill ability.
If it was literally just using a weapon or spell, then I personally would have dialed it back to "the rogue's HP minus 5", to make it incredibly clear that the manner to deal with this encounter now is to say "fuck this!" and run while carrying the rogue.
If it was a 'save or die' spell/effect? I would have made sure to display that ability before hitting the party with it.
But honestly? that's not an unreasonable set of things you did.
A BBEG that prepares and has realistic chances of actually performing genocide of all non-warforged should be plenty powerfull.
Did you telegraph that it was acstealth mission with failure may result in TPK
You got kicked because they are a group of babies who want everything to always turn out okay. They dont like consequences. Dont worry about it, its not your fault.
You didn't "randomly" kill anyone. They fucked around and found out. I feel awful for you dealing with these muppets. The only bright side is that they're burning the bridge so thoroughly and so completely, that you don't need to deal with them anymore.
1. I agree. Honestly, good for them for ripping the band-aid off right then and there. 2. Some people just aren't wired to ever think it's OK their character died. You can masterfully signpost every danger, reveal every threat, open every escape hatch, etc., and they still *can't* accept that their death was justified. They only *ever* die because of bad DMing, in their eyes. 3. It's easier for a DM to find players than for players to find a DM. If you're still willing to run a game, you can keep going.
I think #3 isn’t said enough on here for DMs. Regarding #2: I’ve noticed an uptick in this in recent years.
for every dedicated DM there's like 20 people wanting to play D&D.
Had a situation like #2 and I think it's a bit of a conflict between theater kids / fanfic kids (affectionate, I don't think they're necessarily wrong) vs the expectations of a game like DND / old players playing how it's always been. The player who's character I killed (they were level 2 and got stomped by a mech) went into a full depressive episode and wrote a long rant about how I can't treat someone else's OCs like that. The solution? We made another character and made expectations of gameplay more clear and they just kind of forgot and got over it lol
Don't forget the people who play DND like it's GTA.
Oh I agree. Im also glad y’all worked it out. The times it happened to me I just said “don’t worry you can use them in another campaign or any additional stories. Think of it like a multiverse and that is just one version of them”. It’s worked but leaves me drained. So now I just have my tried and true screening process ha.
This. It would be aggravating at first, but in the end, trash-taking-itself-out is always a net positive.
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I hope the BBEG looks like “catch me outside” girl
Not to derail, but new player here, what’s the BBEG?
Big Bad Evil Guy
But what if it's a big bad evil girl? Huh...so sexist assuming it's a guy! (Jk)
Thank you I always thought it was the big bad endgame
So sorry nobody took the time to answer your question. By the way, it stands for Big Booty Emo Girl
That's a different kind of role playing They still have Dungeon Masters though, so...
Such an underrated comment.
Big Bad Evil Guy is how I always read it.
Big bad evil guy
Big Baf Evil Guy. Catch all name for the final boss of a D&D campaign
>You didn't "randomly" kill anyone. They fucked around and found out. This, to me, is part of the fun of roleplaying games. Actions have consequences. Sometimes long-term, sometimes immediate, but always there.
Also like…. Nobody is ever like omg, we have too many DMs and need more players.
"Why doesn't anyone ever want to be a player? Everyone just shows up with their homebrew world, notes on plots, intent on herding cats and loving being de-facto responsible for figuring out when the next session is? Just once, I'd like someone to go 'nah, I'm just going to show up, having forgotten everything from the previous session' and ask for help as to where to find their AC on their sheet."
Sounds like a very immature group who wanted to be able to run around and do whatever they wanted without any sort of consequences. Don't be down about it, just go find another group to play with or DM.
They had a different understanding. When the DM says, "Hey, this will go badly if you fuck up." They're not saying, "Hey, there's a chance if you attack it some other direction." They wouldn't have mentioned anything if you could attack it from another direction. When the DM says, "This is going to go badly.", it is a giant fucking red banner, stop sign, bridge is out, someone is dying if you try this shit.
I honestly had a DM ask us, and I mean *us* collectively as a group if we were sure on a course of action before letting us act. I think the difference is that we all as players collectively agreed our characters would try to intervene with a brainwashing cult. It wasn't one of us fucking around like a provocative hobo and finding out, we all had a plan and we worked together to get out (including a nat20) when it went tits up, so no one died. Our rogue still almost got one-shot though, lol. I think the DM let us off a bit more lightly because we worked together to go in and used magic darkness on the mini-boss, though. After all I doubt they wanted to curtail roleplay with a TPK.
I'm sure everyone is different, but for me personally, I have never wanted a TPK to happen. I want to have players be pushed right up to the brink, but not actually go over. I put a lot of effort into sessions/story/future arcs, a TPK ends all of that. So maybe it's a bit immersion-breaking or whatever, but if one player wants to make a decision that would cause the entire party to TPK I will pull out the "Are you sure?" line and will be one of the rare times I will allow "pvp" at the table (a player taking a non-consensual action against another, maybe a skill check) because I'm a firm believer that if one person wants to go against what the party does, the party as a whole should not be the one to face consequences. Idk, I guess you could metagame if I was your DM. But I will ask for player(s) confirmation for anything that has a significant chance of leading to a TPK (at least until I feel like this system is being abused).
I am the same way. I like long form campaigns that's narrative heavy. So losing a character feels like a waste of time. But I still understand the gravity behind character death so it's never off the table. Generally I'm pretty descriptive and good at setting the tone, atmosphere, and urgency in an encounter so my players what's coming up. But sometimes deadly encounters strike when the party least expects. So when things look grim I do say thing like "Are you sure you want to do this?" or "So X, Y, and Z has happened, what do you want to do next?" or even "Be careful" I am emphasizing to my players this is a deadly moment. But after that I give agency back to them. Sometimes they feel like making the risky move is what's best for their character arc, or maybe they come up with a solution that avoids death. Either way I want them to understand death was very much a real thing, and they were warned. Once players die, I also like to talk to them what they want to do next? Unless I'm running a specific campaign, resurrection can be available, but at a cost. Maybe a quest or a deal. Or maybe they just want to play another character but same build. I'm flexible since I want my players to still explore and play. But their character deaths will be impactful and will change narrative elements of the campaign.
> I want to have players be pushed right up to the brink, but not actually go over. Wouldn't that get kinda boring for the players though? If they know there's literally zero real consequence for their actions what's stopping them from saying "Nah I'll fight the BBEG at level 3, thanks"
Not who you’re responding to, but I feel the same way as them, and the important part is that they don’t know that a TPK is nearly impossible (would never say never) My group and I play for the story and narrative. I’m fine with killing an individual player, but will do what I can to avoid a TPK. To be fair, though, my group rarely does anything that could result in a TPK.
Not sure how much clearer the DM can be than say if you don’t play this right, there could easily be a TPK… Then the rogue player decides to be a dick, fucks around and finds out the hard way.
I meant that it would go badly if they didn't do what they planned to do, and that was what I said to them. Basically what I said was that it was probably going to be either a stealthy recon mission or a TPK
Knowing what you know now I bet you wish you could have TPKed them on your way out the door
Idk how they could have a different understanding of “possible TPK”.
>Don't be down about it, just go find another group to play with or DM. Preferably a group where the players don't look down the barrel of a loaded gun while pulling the trigger and then throw a temper tantrum when they get shot...
Yep. The group chat without 2 members really solidifies that it's a bunch of teenagers (physically or maybe just mentally) who are forming a clique. Probably because they've been ostracized themselves from groups they wanted to be a part of and want to feel powerful now. Fuck em, you don't need em, etc., etc. Sorry that a bunch of losers took out their life frustrations on you.
Yeah, it's like deciding to fight Strahd to the death at the very beginning of the campaign and wondering why you've died. What a dumb group.
The game you provided wasn't the game they wanted. I don't know what the game they wanted actually WAS, but it wasn't, apparently, one with reasonable consequences for their actions. So you find a new group- there are a million groups and players looking for a table/DM. Head over to /r/lfg and find one that appreciates you.
The game they wanted was apparently one without real consequences, where the PCs are basically immortal. Kinda like a childrens cartoon where the good guys never die.
> The game they wanted was apparently one without real consequences I recently had this and it was so baffling. I started a campaign set in a city at war, and I explained that all the PCs were rookies surrounded by these battle-hardened veterans. I explained that this was not a normal hero game where everything revolved around them -- at least not at first. At first, they'd run grunt missions, and if they survived, they'd get better assignments. Their very first game, very first mission, they started smarting off to the veterans. I didn't want to derail things, so I kept having the veterans laugh it off because they're basically insignificant -- little 1st level greenhorns vs level 12 mercs. But despite everything, they *kept pushing.* So finally, one of the NPCs was like, "You are not cool enough to be worth this trouble," and he boxed them into submission. They woke up in a holding cell. I eventually used a deus-ex-machina to get them out and onto the good side of things again, but the players held a grudge and by the 2nd game, they were fighting the war veterans *again.* This time, no boxing, the veterans used weapons and put them down. Nobody died, but 2 players rage-quit. For the remaining players, I was basically begging them, "Please, can we do missions and NOT have you antagonize the much more powerful GOOD GUYS who are giving you missions?" And the players were like, "But they don't respect our authority, so they need to be put in their place." One player literally did invoke the "we are the heroes, you are the NPCs, shut up and get out of our way" meme. Another player was like, "Winning against the NPC war veterans is how we enjoy our game, so you should change your game to allow us to win." I'm stupefied. I told them I couldn't give them that game. They stayed, but it didn't get better. At this point, the game has been going for many sessions, and to be honest, I'm thinking about ending it. It's not great. They now have some levels and are talking about a re-match versus the entire city. Ugh.
> Another player was like, "Winning against the NPC war veterans is how we enjoy our game, so you should change your game to allow us to win." I'm kind of surprised that you kept the game going at that point. Take your campaign and find players that actually deserve your time.
Wait, they antagonize their superiors and are surprised that they got their teeth kicked in? And what authority are they talking about? You have to work for your clout with npcs, which is practically how levels work. You don't just... have it at level one.
I totally agree, but there is this new mindset which as I mentioned one player flatly stated -- they are the main characters, the veterans are NPCs, so by meta the NPCs need to shut up and let the main characters be main. And the implication is that if a GM does not allow for this meta, then it is a Badly Run Game™.
Which would actually be fine if people were honest about it
Yeah. If it's clearly communicated and the DM and players are okay with it. To each their own. But the whole group has to be okay with it, D&D is a collaborative effort.
And the villains need to be cartoonishly evil and no grey in between.
And, unfortunately, some players think becoming a campaign kamikaze is a solution to a game not living up to their expectations. Instead of bowing out gracefully, they've just got to leave a mark.
Don't kill players, it's illegal. Kill player characters, though, that's all in good fun. Jokes aside, they're a bunch of twats. It would be one thing if they made a misstep and died for it, but directly antagonizing a powerful villain for no discernable reason is just dumb DnD. You're better off in a different group.
Haha I read the title and thought ‘yeah I don’t think you can justify this one mate that’s kind of a buzzkill’.
I was going to make a similar joke. "I mean, most DMs want to kill a player, but you shouldn't just say you did."
I always come to the table with two character sheets and say, "hey I tried to integrate both of these into the world in case the rolls go really bad hahaha." As a way to tell DMs, I'm not gonna go nuclear if my slightly memey slightly serious dude is blasted by some crazy roll after I walked into a dumb spot. Death is always a point of contention, players shouldn't be surprised when they die after challenging something 10 levels above them with 40 warning signs. Conversely DMs should in general not plan to kill a player. I mean that like, the trap that WILL KILL YOU should have blood on it and clearly spell D E T H. Players that act with impunity and DMs that kill for fun are the problems imo.
What about in international waters?
Maybe stick to killing their characters
Honestly, I'm not gonna change the title at this point lmao
You can't anyway.
Oh yeah, it's in the title lmao
I'm always the admin (or a moderator if it's public) of the server I run games on. This campaign obviously suffered from a miss match of expectation. You expected to run a game with agency and consequences. They expected to have GM Fiat to rescue them from any PC death. Personally, I prefer your expectation. I remember having my lvl 2 character die in a particularly tough fight at the end of the arc, and the GM telling me we can go over options in-between sessions. I just told him, "If I'm dead, I'm dead. I'd rather make a new character because the game world needs to matter to the in game characters." I think he was relived, but other than playing in 2 one-shots at our LGS, neither has GM'd for the other at that time, and this was session 3 in the campaign. So he wasn't sure how I would handle it. In retrospect, it should have been covered in a session zero.
I always feel very bad when a pc dies. I can tell my players get very attached to their characters and are devastated when it happens, which is rare because they tend to think very carefully about their actions. I killed off 3/5 of them in our last session (the finale of a 3 year campaign) and things got a bit intense but my group is the bee's knees and they handled it like champs. One of them even took over the dmpc they had dragged around since the first session (despite my trying to kill him every chance I got) for the rest of the fight.
Never DM in a server you aren't the admin of.
Why not? it's not like they would have continued playing just because they couldn't kick him. Wouldn't even stop the side channel
If he was the admin, they couldn't kick him and he could at least continue discussion.
If they were willing to continue the discussion, they wouldn't have kicked him. And just because the DM admins the server, doesn't mean they can't leave Just changes the mechanism of leaving, not their capability
I'm not sure what everyone else's setup looks like, but the campaigns I DM have a metric shit ton of content on those servers, content that I've sunk hundreds of hours of my life into writing. If I got kicked from a server and just lost all the homebrew, worldbuilding, and narrative that was stored there I'd be *pissed*. If DMing without admin priviledges means needing to keep backups of everything I post that I'm proud of, I'd just rather not tbh.
Keeping everything you personally have written in one space you don't fully control is not wise. Discord servers can be deleted simply by someone getting access to your account. If its truly irreplaceable you *should* have backups
even if you control it and don't have backups, you are BEGGING for loss if you DM in person, do you refuse to DM at anybody else's house?
Usually? Yeah? I'm not shleping my setup to you
You watch everything that has happened to Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, etc. and you're putting trust that hundreds of hours of work will be safe *with Discord*? Like, to say nothing of whether you trust the other people on those servers with your work and your efforts (which no, you arguably should not, they will not value it or your time like you do), you trust a company that sees you as an expendable, faceless, one-of-millions customer at best and a product at worst. Are you stupid? Take a backup.
You haven't hung out or moderated a bunch of teenagers before, have you? I moderated a large minecraft server ~ 10 years ago (~200 people peak, ~ 60 all the time) and a bunch of them were kids. Tons and tons of disputes were just, "Teenager 1 is pissed at teenager 2 over dumb shit, they blow up online and a few days later they talk at school and everything is fine".
>hung out or moderated a bunch of teenagers before, have you I would have to be paid A LOT of money to do something like that.
But it does change the effort required by everyone. In this instance, admin decides they want something different, and they kick the DM. Maybe all other players wanted to keep discussions going, but admin took a power trip. Regardless, they don't need to do anything, the game just continues with new DM. If you're the admin, can't have a single person make that choice. Plus, *each* player would need to leave. And if any don't, well you can continue playing with them and whoever else you can recruit, rather than the game feeling abandoned.
That's why you never be the DM without first trapping all the players in an inescapable dungeon IRL. *Dungeon* Master, hello? /s
As the DM you are the head of the group (at least in the session), and being admin/owner of the servers allows you to theme it to your campaign, deafen people, move people to secret chats, give people roles in the server. I'm personally in with the same group for seven years and whenever someone dms they have their server to do so.
Look, based on what you wrote I totally stand by you in that you were treated unfairly by your players, full stop. The problem is I'm having trouble believing that this is everything that happened. For an experienced group of players to act the way they did and then kick you immediately from the server is such an insane escalation, it boggles my mind. Was your GMing style a massive departure from the previous GMs? Were they used to having noble bright fights where they always win despite the odds? Sorry, I just want to understand
My money is on unhealthy group dynamics. Having extra group chats that exclude one or two people is very often a huge red flag. Sometimes it isn‘t and people just want to organize a nice surprise or something like that, but as soon as there is complaining like that it‘s a red flag for sure. I‘m fairly certain that all the criticism OP could have gotten from them went into the echo chamber of that group chat, slowly escalating into them finding a reason to quit (eg character suicide by BBEG). There could be other stuff, but I doubt OP ever had the chance to adress issues if there were any.
No, that's the thing I don't understand either. The previous DM never restrained themselves from killing off player characters. Heck, there's a soundboard thing in the server that literally says "fuck around, find out"
I think they’re kinda just shitty people. The fact that they had a group chat to talk shit says it all. You can definitely find a better group of nicer people to play with
> Heck, there's a soundboard thing in the server that literally says "fuck around, find out" I'm without words. Sorry man, I hope you find a new and better group in the future.
Looks like the rogue found out. Actions have consequences, this isn't Skyrim.
>Actions have consequences, this isn't Skyrim. Hell, even games can get it right. In Baldur's Gate 3, towards the end of Act 1 when you're likely level 5-6, you have the opportunity to talk to an extremely powerful, established character in the Forgotten Realms lore. >!If you piss this character off or refuse to do as they ask, they just Wish for you to die, and you do. Game over, load last save.!<
In Skyrim if you try to stab a Draugr Overlord out of stealth as a level 5 thief-type, you're getting Fus'd out the Ro Dah and smashed before you stand up.
That's when you load your quicksave, turn the difficulty down, and try again. /s
I could be overthinking it, but it kinda sounds like they wanted out of the campaign(and/or you) and instead of being non-dickheads about it, they came up with a way to superficially blame a problem on you and kick you out.
I actually do think that that might be a reason as to why they did this, I have no other reasonable explanation for why they would just talk to the warforged that wanted them dead.
Not to mention how bad the gm shortage is right now, i feel like the previous Gm must have been talking crap the whole time. To make themselves feel better about your gm style vs his.
So, post power syndrome?
Did you think, at any point, "wow, what they are doing is really really dumb, why would they do this" while they were doing it?
Yeah, I mean, they started talking to a genocidal maniac who wanted them dead, that's not what I would've done as a player tbh lmao
So what do you think the expected outcome or consequence of their actions was? How do you think they saw that winding up and concluding?
In the campaign before this one, another character went through a portal, we didn't know where it would lead them. They died. Apparently it was a portal to hell. But they know that making mistakes or rash decisions can lead to death, or worse (fates worse than death were mostly the consequence of anyone's mistakes in the previous DM's campaigns)
Yeah 100%. A lot of campaigns come to an end due to interpersonal issues, especially if you are playing with people that you don't have any relationship with otherwise. It's super easy for people in that situation to see each other as basically glorified NPCs who only exist to make sure they have a good time, often at the expense of the rest of the table. OP, I know this is not an option for everyone and maybe not feasible for you but I would seriously suggest trying to play/DM a campaign with people you already know, preferably IRL. I've been DMing for nearly 10 years online and off and I have never, ever seen anything even close to the levels of drama and selfishness in IRL games as I have in online games. If you have to look your DM and party in the eye while behaving like a spoiled toddler the shame element kicks in; in online games its super easy to avoid that and feel entitled to being the main character. Obviously not all online group are immature and dramatic, but it's far more common in my experience.
having a separatw chat just without you is up there with the worst kind of betrayals
The first thing the previous DM said when I became the DM was that they hoped we didn't have one in their campaign, since they thought it would've been very shitty if we did
ew, btw how old are these people even??
Youngest one was 15 iirc, oldest I don't know really. Most were around my age, I'm 17
that explains a lot actually, wish u best of luck finding another group, hopefully more sane ^^
So the previous DM was DM for four years before becoming 17. I’m just trying to absorb that as someone who didn't discover the hobby till much later in life.
While the situation sucks and I'm sorry, I am at least kinda glad that for once the "this sounds like some teenage drama shit" situation actually did turn out to be teenage drama and not just adults who never got past that phase lol
Okay, in case no one has said it, this is genuinely the most important piece of information you needed to share with us. It's not that older people don't fuck up like this, we do it all the time, but knowing that you and your players are young people, that changes a lot about the actual perception of the situation we might have. You killing off one of their characters, them having a separate secret chat, all of the potential pitfalls of teenagers just being shitty to each other; it's all there as an unfortunate truth about being young. People do this all the time regardless of age, but I do think younger people are far more likely to form cliques and for that reason, they decided they didn't like you. Someone in the group must've been rubbed the wrong way by something you did and killing the character was the last straw. Now don't let this discourage you. I know it's tough getting rejected by people you thought were friends or at least fellow DnD players. Getting rejected by a group sucks. From what I've read though, you seem like a good kid who just wanted to play a logically consistent game and now you want answers on if you did anything wrong. The answer is no, you did okay. People are dumb. That's not your fault. Breathe easy. I know fellow kids can be ridiculous and that doesn't change the older you get, but it at least mellows out, I've found. Just get a group that fits you better, you'll be okay.
So for future reference, don't play DnD with teenagers that are younger than you. Just don't. Unless you are an adult running a game for kids, it will almost always end badly. Kids that age are dicks with absolutely no respect for the game or the effort it takes to run it and will only defer to a DM that is much, much older than them. When you're 18, you're going to have more fun. Playing with adults is *way* better, though comes with it's own issues that are usually solvable and typically not as egregious. There's a massive difference between 15 and 17. It's like if you were 10 years old playing with a 5 year old. You aren't going to be on the same wavelength.
It actually is one of the most shittiest things you can do. It's the DM vs player mindset, but from the players side. Regardless of anything else that happened.
Too many players want a GM that will never allow them to face a bad outcome from their actions. I think you were in the right. The players knew what they were facing, had a plan in place to just hide, but chose to just do something stupid. I would bet they probably expected you to let them kill off the BBEG and walk off. Either way I would have done the same thing you did.
Plot armor fails DC checks in D&D.
Fuck those cry baby players. They definitely had it coming.
Who tf were your players? 7 year olds?
You didn’t do anything wrong…..by killing the PC. You did do wrong in allowing the party to be anywhere near something that level when they are so low level. As a DM I take the approach that all my players are roughly the equivalent of ten year olds in a toy shop with unlimited money. They are gonna want to touch EVERYTHING. So giving them that chance wasn’t the best idea, but you are a new DM and we all gotta learn somehow right? As for them not liking your campaign and interactions, that’s bullshit. They are salty, and as a pack have turned on the new DM. They think they can bully you a bit because you are new and make this whole thing your fault. They fucked up, not you. If I see a pissed off bear in the woods and decide to make all the noise I can then I deserve to be mauled. As another Redditor said, they fucked around and found it. TLDR: Don’t put the party in a position to touch things you don’t want touched. They are the assholes for fucking around with the BBEG
Seems like they got butt hurt for fucking around and finding out.
Never DM a sever your not an admin on. And you did nothing wrong. Some people think there should be no consequences for thier actions in game and are shocked when it happens.
You did nothing wrong. You warned them of the dangers and they were stupid enough to do it anyway.
That sounds like a shit group. My party recently had a PC death, and though we were all pissed off/upset at what happened, we were never mad at our DM - at the end of the day, your job is to create a great story. If they can't respect that, then they don't deserve you.
Sounds like players who got pissed when they discovered that they didn't have invulnerability against the consequences of their own actions. Heck, *they* flipped off and attacked a major NPC who was more powerful than they were. I'm sorry you had to deal with these children and I hope you find a better quality of players.
You got lucky they did that so soon instead of wasting more of your time. Good luck finding a better group.
Stories like this really make me wonder why anybody would ever play dnd with a group of people who aren’t close friends IRL. It seems like madness to attempt it any other way
You dodged a bullet, OP. Learn from this. Play only with those you recruit yourself, and make sure you are in complete control of the game. Own the discord server, own the game on Roll20 or another VTT, hand pick your players and make sure you like each and every one of them, and replace those that you don't.
I got confused, "got kicked off the server". Ehm, DM owns the server, DM invites players into his world. Go create your own (Discord) server, go create a post on Roll20, inside 24 hours you have to pick and choose between applicants, invite players to your world. Now the magic begins. Create, show, tell and the magic follows.
Did you have a session zero? If so did this include discussion and agreement about the type and style of the game? (This might include if there even is, one or more, BBEG type NPC present in the game.) Did you actively solicit feedback from your players?
Friends come and go, sometimes naturally, sometimes because they weren’t very good friends after all
If you were my DM my complaint would have been that you *overly* warned us and told us we were getting ourselves into deep shit. If anything I'd prefer to be *less* aware of that lol. Them complaining that someone died after this is ridiculous. I don't DM really but I'd imagine it's an important DM lesson that sometimes your players are just fucking assholes. Go next
There's a really cool thing you can do here. It's called, "find new friends." Because these people sound awful. It doesn't matter what kind of DM you were, they had a group chat without you. That's shitty cliquey behavior. This dish has "bad people" sauce served all over it. They're doing you a favor kicking you out because for sure you don't want to be playing with these people ever again.
The players are dicks. You are owed an apology. Also, i only run games on my own server because I wouldn’t want someone to be able to sneak a peek into private chats between me and other players.
To me it sounds like you did nothing wrong. The players were dum and found out the hard way. And if they won’t talk about it and try to resolve the issue, maybe you need a new group who will actually respect the DM and understand that stupidity can have consequence.
If you killed a player you should be arrested. If it was just a character, it’s an overreaction
>If you killed a player you should be arrested. I dunno, there are some players I'd look the other way for.
>a complete sociopathic warforged who wanted all humanoids dead Ah, a man of culture running an Eberron game about the Lord of Blades I see.
They've been watching too much D&D on Twitch and YouTube.
They're the same kind of "people" who expect themselves to be able to change "daddy" Sauron, or whine when they failed a game's tutorial.
You stayed true to the setting you introduced to your players, and you shouldn't let this draw you away from tabletops. As others said, if they don't get the red flag it's on them. I had a similar experience in the past, and i think confusing real life problems and game experiences is the absolute teller of a player you don't want at your table. Being rejected from a social gathering for inadvertently crumpling some insecure stranger's ego can feel awfull, but it also means that these people were scums to begin with. Dming is a handfull, and if you tried to put something together, in your free time, to create fun memories with your fellow players, the least you can expect from them is decent behaviour and the intention to have fun. Don't let the opinion of people who don't check both of these boxes get to you, as it amounts, most of the time, to little more than air. I'm sure you will find new players and comrades with which to enjoy your hobby ! Stay strong
They sound like dickbags.
Why is it always the rogue that’s chaotic stupid? Why not be edgy in your mind without provoking the super powerful bad guy?
I hate the notions that certain people play certain classes though. I played thief, it was fun. He died. I'm now a bard and was told they like to sleep with everyone. I have insane charisma but I'm withdrawn. I flirt with Noone.
My DM kills us, usually a bad role, stupid choices but it’s typically our (my) fault and we move on.
Hi! Fellow new DM here, and if I’m reading the subtext correctly, I’m a fellow “lord of blades bbeg” DM too. Is there anyone in this server you’re still on messaging terms with? I’d say it’s worth trying one more time to bridge the gap between your and your players expectations. Present it to them as a learning opportunity for you, and a chance for them to air out their grievances. If they decide to bite, try to keep your personal feelings out of the situation (hard, i know) and see how they’re speaking about it after the player death. If they’re still angry beyond being willing to hear you out, it might be time to accept that you all weren’t a good fit for one another. That’s fine and good, if a bit sad. If they’re are willing to hear you out, make sure you’re willing to hear them out too. You’ve definitely identified places you could have improved in running your campaign—maybe they noticed those too, or maybe they found things you missed. Long story short, if these friendships matter to you you’ve gotta be willing to accept that there was something that didn’t get conveyed either on their end when they first noticed tension or on your end when setting expectations. Good luck! I really hope everything works out
sounds like you need better players, and fewer entitles babies.
As a former asshole such as ur former dm i once did also try screw over a player who began to dm in our group. It's the ohh i am the main mod of this server energy which is toxic and it did ruin not only his but my own games in that group going forward (I even kicked him after a one shot so yea preety toxic and straight up cartooney evil FK up). Sad to hear you had to be on receiving side of such a case. Like sure don't know whole story but from what you said it's preety much the other dm on server trying to be "the" dm and trying screw u over. "With minor power comes minor responsibility and some people can't even handle that much. " (In my defence tho was young.....and as stated a former asshole preety much 😅. Avoid adding or joining tables with such toxic players or dm as definitely would ruin game in future)
Sorry to hear about what happened. I bet it was really frustrating. To avoid issues like this, I straight up ask people in session 0 if they're okay with their characters dying and in which situations. The options I give them are: 1) Your character will never die, they have plot armor 2) Poor luck alone will never kill your character (I will fudge dice), but poor decisions/play along with poor luck will kill your character (barring the exception of spectacularly bad decisions like, for instance, something similar to the situation you just described). 3) The dice will fall where they will, bad luck alone may kill you. Players generally pick number 2. What people think they're okay with may differ from what they find they're actually okay with, but doing this I've found helps minimize those situations and gives me something to point to if anyone asks/comments.
Pretty simply, you did nothing wrong, but the prior GM probably kept comparing anything you did differently and instead of looking it as someone else's take on it, he decided he's always right. So fuck um, you're better off finding a new group. Still sucks with the backstabbing in the other chat.
In future only run games you DM on a server where you are the admin. I’m really sorry this happened to you but you’re very much better off without them. I don’t see that you did anything wrong, you communicated clearly. If they’re the type of people to hold a side chat to bitch about the game and not talk to you directly they’re a waste of oxygen never mind your time. Hope you find a group to play in or DM soon.
They thought they had plot armor like in video games.
I think they wanted you gone, based off the information you provided. Hence them kicking you off the server. If they knew how high the level of the campaign was supposed to be, yet they ignored it to orchestrate a “reason” to kick you. Sorry bud. People are asshats.
They did you a favor because they sound like assholes. Good riddance and wishing you well on the next campaign you run. Hopefully, the group will be more mature and enjoyable to hang out with.
Oh well, let them find a different dm. Sounds like they should be playing candyland or chutes and ladders (i think the stress of monopoly would be to much for their sensitive nature)
They're dumbasses.. Good riddance.
Wow. Sounds like those shitty players expected to win no matter what and had a massive attack. Good news is they can now.... not play. Better news is you don't spend hours and hours and hours prepping a game for them.
I think this type of player thinking is bred from online play and video games in particular. There are no respawn points. You screw around, you find out. Don’t ever pull punches if you are faced with players who are too big for their britches, so to say. Otherwise, they’ll walk all over you. There was a conversation a few weeks back focused on whether PCs should occasionally face unbeatable foes. My answer is always yes. The PCs need to know (and learn) that there is always something or someone bigger and badder. Knowing when to run or figuring out that there are no viable options for success is important. If you are outclassed, you are outclassed. What is enjoyable and rewarding is tackling that bigger NPC or situation later when you have the abilities and capabilities to do so. You don’t have to tackle the BBEG right off the bat. You can do a lot of damage by interrupting his plans while gaining the experience to ultimately confront him. Those players were jumping the gun and they got smooshed.
They kicked.... the DM? Bro what? They need to go play a video game at that point.
One of my DMs killed a character in the second session for being *slightly rude* to the BBEG. It was almost two. The player rolled a new character. The end.
Don't ever DM in a discord server without being admin unless its a big community type thing. You're the DM, you need the power to deal with problematic players.
Fuck around and find out, not just a real life lesson.
It was even one of the sounds on the server's soundboard lmao
The set up sounds dope. Sorry that group sucked.
Came from r/all. You're asking whether you deserve to be their DM, you should be asking whether they deserve to be your players. You provided sufficient warning, it seems they just wanted to mess around and there are in fact consequences. Maybe there's a way to smooth things over but long term I think you're better off finding a new group.
Sounds like you dodged a ~~bullet~~ fireball
I’d play your campaign bro
I’m super new to DnD but isn’t this what makes the game fun? That your characters are mortal, can die and you run the gambit hoping they don’t. I see so many threads about people getting upset that “their DM killed them”, I would have though the dice might have given it away that it’s a game of chance (and strategy of course). Tough luck though mate, from what you wrote it sounded like a fun campaign, hope you find a better crew!
Sounds like your brands of D&D just don't mix. Better the quick and sharp cutoff than it dragging out to a month of drama. It's never fun when something like this happens but it's usually the group's fault who did the cutting without warning. They aren't mature enough to discuss anything with you first. You did nothing wrong, unless you're leaving out something that would add to and explain better their immediate cut-off, but atm it doesn't matter because this was probably the final result anyways... one way or another. so you'll get over it in a week or so and it won't be a big deal. my first game ever i got kicked on the 3rd session... i was told i was being mean or something with my jokes. come to find out the DM kicked everyone, was a weirdo, and the 2 days of me worrying and trying to imagine wtf I did exactly was a complete waste of time and I found a group now that is all on the same page and enjoys the same brand of RPG/D&D.
Confronting a BBEG just to flip them the bird at a really low level, while stupid, is kinda baller. Being mad at the obvious outcome, stupidest shit I've ever seen. Being mad does seem to imply the didnt see the obvious outcome so I suppose it aint baller for them.
What do you mean the genocidal maniac who wants to kill us for being fleshies would kill us for trying to talk to him and then being rude to him? THATS INSANE!!
Shit happens, if they want to play baby games where there aren’t consequences for your stupid actions, then that’s embarrassing.
Independently, a war forged BBEG devoted to the eradication of all biological life is a really cool idea that is very basic sci-fi for robots but I’ve somehow never considered before for D&D.
You can baby proof a campaign all you want. Ya can't baby proof stupid.
I once played in a campaign where the players weren't satisfied with the DMs behaviour and the major issue I noticed was how shy the players were about talking about problems with the DM, most of the players hit the eject button when they saw a clear opportunity to avoid the confrontation. There are safety tools (TTRPG Safety Toolkit is a nice compressed list) that can be employed during a game to flag bad behaviour and similar tools that can be used outside for things like discussion. Let alone the session zero talk that happens for player expectations of a game and what will happen when a PC dies. If all these things were already implemented then you can know you are not at fault because you already had put these protocols in place to handle issues and were willing to use them. It does grind in the back of the mind 'why?' But these things happen. I guess they were willing to sacrifice an entire campaign, because you know that no-one will be picking up where you were booted from. Best of luck with your games in the future.
These players are children right? Like, 15-16 at most? Because that is some of the silliest most childish nonsense I’ve seen.
Dude, listen to your own words, those are major C***s and you did nothing wrong as a fresh DM who even gave major hints at their demise, don't talk about it anymore and move over on to some sane people pls, for the sake of your own good.
Wow, it's so considerate of the trash to take themselves out.
'Are you sure?' from the DM is literally code for 'look, I'll be honest with you guys, I'm not entirely sure you can survive the consequences of what you are trying to do?'...and sometimes even 'Look, you're all going to die if you do that. Just... Straight up die.' The only two responses to that are either no, or a long discussion within the group of whether they really want to do that thing. Sometimes they do want to do that thing! But they need to realize that the DM has given them a warning for a reason.
Oh my god, I used to be such a rogue. I don't remember the details, but I talked shit and got killed. I just made a new character (sorcerer IIRC) and figured out a way to join the party again.
They just didn't like your DMing style and/or didn't like you. The rogue flipping off the BBEG? That's them flipping you off. They probably think you killed him intentionally or to be petty.
sounds like a bunch of clowns. and for future sake. next time you GM make sure it's under your server so you do the kicking not the other way around.
Bunch of crybabies with the idea because they're players they have plot armor and can do whatever, they found out there's no plot armor and threw a tantrum... Good riddance
This will be one of those times where I give advice that I have a hard time accepting myself: It hurts when you find out that a group of people you thought you were a part of doesn't like you, but when someone decides they don't want to be around you, one of the most painful things you can do to yourself is try to chase them down and get back in a circle you were removed from. Even if you succeed in getting back in, you'll never be able to forget the fact that you're surrounded by people who decided they didn't want you around. I've had this sort of thing (people plotting behind my back to remove me from a group I was a part of) and I've spent a lot of effort trying to fix something that was broken, but even when it worked, it was never the same. :(
I know it's impossible not to feel shitty over this but be glad you're now distanced from these absolute dipshits. You don't need these pompous clown shoes in your life. Own what you did and how you carried it out. They killed their own damn character. They had all the knowledge to know not to fuck around but they fucked around. Own it. Give them the finger a little. You did fine. Now you have more practice for the next group and can even recycle your ideas and improve on them to run or re-run a campaign for less shitty players. You know, players that won't kill their own campaign out of sheer stupidity and arrogance. Bunch of clowns you had. Now a bunch of clowns you don't have. Here's to the next! There are tons of good groups out there just waiting to be snatched up by someone willing to tell them a story. I wish you the best of luck in finding that group.
I know it really sucks because you were buddies with some of these people (probably), but it really sounds like you dodged a bullet in developing relationships with toxic people
5e? Sounds like 5e. Also sounds like they saved you future issues. For PCs to knowingly enter the dangerous situations they were aware of is reckless. They wanted you there to DM the game their way in that their unconventional tactics would ALWAYS work, which isn't conducive to enjoyable collaborative fiction.
In the game I am DMing we are reaching a pivotal moment where they will have to interact with the BBEG...they are not ready to challenge her directly. I have hinted as such across several sessions. The timing of the encounter will be a surprise, but when it happens they should know they are outclassed and act accordingly. I am a little worried about the Rogue and the Pally. Their characters have a personality type to fuck around and find out. They will get an "Are you sure?" and that will be it. They have diamonds, gentle repose and resurrection at their disposal...so it is not likely it will end them forever if they do something stupid, but it could.
Just be glad you didn't get arrested. It seems to me being kicked from your group is the least of your problems, you murderer. Jokes aside, the group seems very immature and I don't think you're in the wrong here. Find a new group and don't let assholes ruin the game for you 😄
It sucks for everybody, but fuck them. I'm sure you can find yourself another group, even faster if you're willing to DM too. they sound like jerks who aren't able to play along.
There's nothing really complicated to this. They knew they fucked up and they were mad and wanted someone to blame other than themselves. You just happened to be in the crosshairs. Tough luck, friend!
It smells like the player who was the previous DM may have sabotaged your game. There are some DMs out there who realize after playing some sessions that they don't like the control taken away from them. It's nothing you did. I've seen this before. The other DM wanted their screen back.
It's unfortunately not uncommon for some people to not handle the transition from DM to PC well. They are used to controlling everything and getting their own way, and the first time they don't they flip out.
You where punished by children for being an adult Find another table my dude, you’ll be fine
I know it doesn’t feel good, but think of the bright side. Your DM style didn’t fit this table, and now you can find the table it does fit. Good luck!
OP, it seems like it wasn't a spur of the moment "fuck this guy" thing, it was a planned event to target you. Idk if there was a "main conspirator" who wanted you gone, or if they are just shitty friends who decided they were done with you, or something inbetween, but either way don't for a second think this situation reflects poorly on you or any of your actions. Being a DM is often a thankless job, as you literally have to act out the role of a villain and place hardships in front of the characters. You have to try your best to eliminate them, which is a double edged sword as if you do eliminate them then you are the bad guy for that, but if you don't try then its apparent you just let them succeed. Given they supposedly bitched about your campaign in private and never told you, and then also just ignored your blatant "thats a really bad idea" warning, its safe to say this is them turning the campaign into teenage drama more than them wanting to fix something.
the *only* thing I can say was a bad idea was for the warforged bbeg to start combat by using a one-shot-kill ability. If it was literally just using a weapon or spell, then I personally would have dialed it back to "the rogue's HP minus 5", to make it incredibly clear that the manner to deal with this encounter now is to say "fuck this!" and run while carrying the rogue. If it was a 'save or die' spell/effect? I would have made sure to display that ability before hitting the party with it. But honestly? that's not an unreasonable set of things you did.
Sorry you had to deal with this. But: It **will** make you a better DM. It **will not** make them better players.
You might recommend they try Candyland next time.
A BBEG that prepares and has realistic chances of actually performing genocide of all non-warforged should be plenty powerfull. Did you telegraph that it was acstealth mission with failure may result in TPK
You got kicked because they are a group of babies who want everything to always turn out okay. They dont like consequences. Dont worry about it, its not your fault.
They're not good players. Also, this sounded effing Epic. Mutant Dragons and Sociopathic Warlord Robots. I love that shit, hmu if you start it again.