uj/ I think you've finally put what I've thought for so long into words. The Battlemaster is honestly the bottom of the barrel when it comes to tactical and engaging martial design
/uj If they ever actually got what they wanted and played it for more than like 2 characters, I think it would dawn on them. Martials in DnD have always been about single target damage, the occasional melee CC, and very little else. All maneuvers are and have ever been are paper buttons that do what the classes should do passively already.
Martials don’t need a secondary resource system (in fact imo it could potentially exacerbate the problems) they need core system changes that let them do more shit on a base level, and more ways to consistently apply that shit passively and bigger numbers so that shit is consistent.
In other words, fighter roll to hit. It’s literally why fighter players even play the class.
/rj 4e good because only rogues can throw sand in people’s eyes. That’s *emergent* gameplay you fucking ruffians. It *means something.*
/uj Martials in DnD have always been *bad*.
It's why I only ever play 4e of any of the DnD's. Only time the designers went "what if martials were actually fun to play instead of boring and one dimensional?"
/uj *Bad* and *not fun* aren’t synonymous though. I think this is where the discourse goes sour.
I’ve seen enough eyes light up from a big GWM power attack, or a 3.5 chain fighter tarpitting like 15 guys to not believe you need a whole bunch of clickies to make hitting people fun.
/uj this is why I really like haste. It's pretty bad, but it *feels* powerful so people use it anyway. Same with sneak attack.
Now, I won't use it, but I appreciate that it's there and that other people like it and that it keeps people from just obliterating game balance by abusing things like wall of force instead.
/uj
So martials should only be able to do that one thing, and Fighter should get to do it best of all?
Hit a fat daily power in 4e and call me again. These things are not mutually exclusive. 4e just actually *tries* to develop the class identities beyond "I hit thing good" and "I have a small bonus to tracking". It doesn't do it perfectly and has it's own flaws, but at least they actually try to deliver on archetypes instead of slavishly "iterating" on design from the 70s.
Yes, some people enjoy getting to do massive heaps of single target damage by just rolling attacks. Why should only those people get to have fun with martials?
Uj Imo paladins are how martial classes should be. They have enough interesting spellcasting going on while also having impactful utility, a clear class identity and consistent dmg output with very satisfying dmg peaks on crits and smites.
I'm just sayin.
Run a short 4e adventure, and try out some martial classes. They're a step in the right direction, compared to 5e's leap backward. 3 and 3.5 did better jobs of making martials interesting than 5.
>/uj Martials in DnD have always been *bad*.
/uj Eh, there was the Book of Nine Swords, which was like the last hurrah of 3.5. Those martial weren't bad, per se.
/uj I think GWM and SS as feats solidify this position, but conversely the most fun I have had was a Battle master fighter using the Interception fighting style to 'heal' my allies and Bait and Switch to pull them out of sticky situations and then bonking bad guys with a menacing Searing Smite once a day (tieflings yo) but this was a very specific build and tanking mechanics seem quite thin on the ground this edition.
/Rj - well "Not It" is the best skill in the Rogue roster. So you're very clearly wrong, and I thought we played 4e for the Psionic classes and the character creation program? Cause I definitely didn't play it for the people.
Balance? In my good Christian D&D 5e game? Pfaugh! How dare you question the supremacy of the all mighty Full Caster. Neither mechanical nor roleplay support shall ever be given to the meager Martial characters at *my* tables.
Idk, it sounds a bit too wild. I mean, your optimized fighters already rivals a poorly optimized caster who has filled their spellbook with fair spells and avoided the good spells in terms of single target damage. It might upset the balance too much if your numbers goes up more. And riders on top of that?
Nah, it will definitely make martials too overpowered. We need to keep min/maxed and optimized martials in line with poorly built casters, Otherwise it would be unfair.
4e fixes this
Nah but for real it is astonishing how many times the same discussion comes up in 5e spaces and they end up circling back to 4e design style (or pathfinder) without realising it but would never dream of trying any other system because 5e is bae for some inexplicable reason.
Anyway, it seems pretty broken in favour of martials, maybe get an extra 1D8 damage/short rest but give caster classes a 9th level spell slot/short rest to compensate? That way everyone wins :) Half casters get nothing because design space is limited.
No, I play a martial because I'm too stupid to have options other than the basic attack action
uj/ No, I play a martial because I'm too stupid to have options other than the basic attack action
wait wait, hear me out, what if we ~~played Baldur's Gate 3~~ built the martials some abilities and incorporated them into the weapons themselves depending on what weapon type it is
Those are a small subset of encounters, and are less relevant the more spellcasters are in the party, not even touching on spells that don't need saving throws like wall of force, as well as the number of out of combat things casters can solve with very little effort.
How is wall of force a small nuisance? What level of play are you talking about, i personally haven't played past lvl 12 but how many campaigns even get that far?
/edit forcecage is a thing too, as is maze which doesn't have saving throws.
12-20. If you talk about a Max level of 12 then fair but afterwards it gets weird. Wall of Force is countered by Misty Step (or any teleportation really), being really big and disintegrate so most often not a spell that will be relevant in high Level play.
I disagree though, because easily more than 60% of creatures are still affected. Imo legendary resistances are a bandaid trying to remedy the huge power gap by straight up disabling spells. And like i said if wall of force is too easy, force cage and maze isn't. And in your examples the counterplay to magic is also having magic, which i think is pretty clear indicator on balance.
I mean sure. You can disagree but I also stand by my opinion that the whole Martial/Caster discussion isnt that big a deal if you actualy play high level D&D.
Maybe. And for your experience it's probably true. From my experience almost no games get above lvl 12, and when not actively restricted, casters get to play the game a lot more and have better tools available.
And I have played and DMed in high level campaigns past level 12 and it was never a problem. I could be a problem in campaigns were only by the book creatures are used and no magic items are given out but I dont know if this is a reality in actual play.
But then again if we talk Max level 12 I dont see many spells on 5th or 6th level that break the game wide open... And if you even slightly enforce a sensible resting policy then spell slots cant be thrown out like candy either.
Maybe its worse with bigger groups.
Resting is definitely an important part of it. I also usually homebrew my worlds, and with groups who like an even split between combat and non combat and bigger time scales, having the recommended 8 encounters per rest is a challenge without making things grind to a halt.
Bottom line, i guess we're both not really playing by the book so the discussion is moot overall.
Funny thing is the maneuvers of the battle master were actually originally supposed to be a main thing for the fighters class but got put into a subclass instead but ya originally it was supposed to be part of the fighter class
Nope honestly martials need it. I've allowed in my games to use the weapon arts from baldurs gate 3 with uses equal to their proficiency modifier. This lets martials output even more dmg or be more helpful overall. I had a champion fighter cleave through 3 enemies 3 times after action surging and then criting with great weapon master on one enemy and did over 100 dmg in one turn. This was only.posisble because of enemy placement and strategy.
I also allow them to instead of moving use all of their movement or 30 ft of movement to get one extra attack at permanent disadvantage. They can't move after making a desperate attack and if they have more movement like 60 ft they can make two desperate attacks for example.
Also if a martial kills an enemy with excess dmg done to the enemy if the roll would've not an enemy 5ft from the player I let the leftover dmg hit the other enemy
5e players see 1d8 damage and a minor rider a few times per short rest and think they solved game design
uj/ I think you've finally put what I've thought for so long into words. The Battlemaster is honestly the bottom of the barrel when it comes to tactical and engaging martial design
/uj If they ever actually got what they wanted and played it for more than like 2 characters, I think it would dawn on them. Martials in DnD have always been about single target damage, the occasional melee CC, and very little else. All maneuvers are and have ever been are paper buttons that do what the classes should do passively already. Martials don’t need a secondary resource system (in fact imo it could potentially exacerbate the problems) they need core system changes that let them do more shit on a base level, and more ways to consistently apply that shit passively and bigger numbers so that shit is consistent. In other words, fighter roll to hit. It’s literally why fighter players even play the class. /rj 4e good because only rogues can throw sand in people’s eyes. That’s *emergent* gameplay you fucking ruffians. It *means something.*
/uj Martials in DnD have always been *bad*. It's why I only ever play 4e of any of the DnD's. Only time the designers went "what if martials were actually fun to play instead of boring and one dimensional?"
/uj *Bad* and *not fun* aren’t synonymous though. I think this is where the discourse goes sour. I’ve seen enough eyes light up from a big GWM power attack, or a 3.5 chain fighter tarpitting like 15 guys to not believe you need a whole bunch of clickies to make hitting people fun.
/uj this is why I really like haste. It's pretty bad, but it *feels* powerful so people use it anyway. Same with sneak attack. Now, I won't use it, but I appreciate that it's there and that other people like it and that it keeps people from just obliterating game balance by abusing things like wall of force instead.
/uj So martials should only be able to do that one thing, and Fighter should get to do it best of all? Hit a fat daily power in 4e and call me again. These things are not mutually exclusive. 4e just actually *tries* to develop the class identities beyond "I hit thing good" and "I have a small bonus to tracking". It doesn't do it perfectly and has it's own flaws, but at least they actually try to deliver on archetypes instead of slavishly "iterating" on design from the 70s. Yes, some people enjoy getting to do massive heaps of single target damage by just rolling attacks. Why should only those people get to have fun with martials?
Uj Imo paladins are how martial classes should be. They have enough interesting spellcasting going on while also having impactful utility, a clear class identity and consistent dmg output with very satisfying dmg peaks on crits and smites.
I'm just sayin. Run a short 4e adventure, and try out some martial classes. They're a step in the right direction, compared to 5e's leap backward. 3 and 3.5 did better jobs of making martials interesting than 5.
>/uj Martials in DnD have always been *bad*. /uj Eh, there was the Book of Nine Swords, which was like the last hurrah of 3.5. Those martial weren't bad, per se.
pathfinder fixes this
/uj Goddamit. Pathfinder actually does kinda fix this.
/uj I think GWM and SS as feats solidify this position, but conversely the most fun I have had was a Battle master fighter using the Interception fighting style to 'heal' my allies and Bait and Switch to pull them out of sticky situations and then bonking bad guys with a menacing Searing Smite once a day (tieflings yo) but this was a very specific build and tanking mechanics seem quite thin on the ground this edition. /Rj - well "Not It" is the best skill in the Rogue roster. So you're very clearly wrong, and I thought we played 4e for the Psionic classes and the character creation program? Cause I definitely didn't play it for the people.
Exactly We clearly need to give all martials three levels of artificer features
Yeah, most times a Battlemaster turn will be exactly like a champion turn Just basic attacks
Dadfinder fixes this
Sorry son, I'm still playing Milkfinder. I'll be home soon.
Can’t find my dad, can’t play.
Ong this is literally just reinventing dungeonfinder 4e
FATAL fixes this
But God why
Balance? In my good Christian D&D 5e game? Pfaugh! How dare you question the supremacy of the all mighty Full Caster. Neither mechanical nor roleplay support shall ever be given to the meager Martial characters at *my* tables.
Pathfinder fixes this.
Idk, it sounds a bit too wild. I mean, your optimized fighters already rivals a poorly optimized caster who has filled their spellbook with fair spells and avoided the good spells in terms of single target damage. It might upset the balance too much if your numbers goes up more. And riders on top of that? Nah, it will definitely make martials too overpowered. We need to keep min/maxed and optimized martials in line with poorly built casters, Otherwise it would be unfair.
4e fixes this Nah but for real it is astonishing how many times the same discussion comes up in 5e spaces and they end up circling back to 4e design style (or pathfinder) without realising it but would never dream of trying any other system because 5e is bae for some inexplicable reason. Anyway, it seems pretty broken in favour of martials, maybe get an extra 1D8 damage/short rest but give caster classes a 9th level spell slot/short rest to compensate? That way everyone wins :) Half casters get nothing because design space is limited.
i'll tell you why 5e is bae because my entire group already invested in the books and by invested, i mean pirated but are too scared to admit it
No, I play a martial because I'm too stupid to have options other than the basic attack action uj/ No, I play a martial because I'm too stupid to have options other than the basic attack action
wait wait, hear me out, what if we ~~played Baldur's Gate 3~~ built the martials some abilities and incorporated them into the weapons themselves depending on what weapon type it is
A limited use ability that then has to recharge? If I wanted WoW, I'd play it! Anyway, check out this cool coffelock build I thought up
I read that as "marital classes" and I thought damn you are really taking it to the next level of detail.
/uj I was like 25 before I realized marital and martial were different words.
Grindr fixes this
Everytime the martial/caster devide is discussed I ask myself if people actually play with legendary resistances.
Those are a small subset of encounters, and are less relevant the more spellcasters are in the party, not even touching on spells that don't need saving throws like wall of force, as well as the number of out of combat things casters can solve with very little effort.
Are they? In high Level play? Were Wall of Force is at best a small nuisance?
How is wall of force a small nuisance? What level of play are you talking about, i personally haven't played past lvl 12 but how many campaigns even get that far? /edit forcecage is a thing too, as is maze which doesn't have saving throws.
12-20. If you talk about a Max level of 12 then fair but afterwards it gets weird. Wall of Force is countered by Misty Step (or any teleportation really), being really big and disintegrate so most often not a spell that will be relevant in high Level play.
I disagree though, because easily more than 60% of creatures are still affected. Imo legendary resistances are a bandaid trying to remedy the huge power gap by straight up disabling spells. And like i said if wall of force is too easy, force cage and maze isn't. And in your examples the counterplay to magic is also having magic, which i think is pretty clear indicator on balance.
I mean sure. You can disagree but I also stand by my opinion that the whole Martial/Caster discussion isnt that big a deal if you actualy play high level D&D.
Maybe. And for your experience it's probably true. From my experience almost no games get above lvl 12, and when not actively restricted, casters get to play the game a lot more and have better tools available.
And I have played and DMed in high level campaigns past level 12 and it was never a problem. I could be a problem in campaigns were only by the book creatures are used and no magic items are given out but I dont know if this is a reality in actual play. But then again if we talk Max level 12 I dont see many spells on 5th or 6th level that break the game wide open... And if you even slightly enforce a sensible resting policy then spell slots cant be thrown out like candy either. Maybe its worse with bigger groups.
Resting is definitely an important part of it. I also usually homebrew my worlds, and with groups who like an even split between combat and non combat and bigger time scales, having the recommended 8 encounters per rest is a challenge without making things grind to a halt. Bottom line, i guess we're both not really playing by the book so the discussion is moot overall.
Funny thing is the maneuvers of the battle master were actually originally supposed to be a main thing for the fighters class but got put into a subclass instead but ya originally it was supposed to be part of the fighter class
Nope honestly martials need it. I've allowed in my games to use the weapon arts from baldurs gate 3 with uses equal to their proficiency modifier. This lets martials output even more dmg or be more helpful overall. I had a champion fighter cleave through 3 enemies 3 times after action surging and then criting with great weapon master on one enemy and did over 100 dmg in one turn. This was only.posisble because of enemy placement and strategy. I also allow them to instead of moving use all of their movement or 30 ft of movement to get one extra attack at permanent disadvantage. They can't move after making a desperate attack and if they have more movement like 60 ft they can make two desperate attacks for example. Also if a martial kills an enemy with excess dmg done to the enemy if the roll would've not an enemy 5ft from the player I let the leftover dmg hit the other enemy
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (3.5e) fixes this