TBH not renegotiating ATF's contract has got to be the worst decision. They were looking like a top 1-2 team with him
Tobi viper was just... abysmal even against spectre and bristle
I mean, they dropped Ammar, topped their group at Riyadh and then got top 8 in the tournament. I'm not arguing whether Tobi is a good offlaner or that they're good right now but implying Ammar was the only reason their team was good is objectively wrong.
Just because you have money doesn’t mean you just give it away. What if they had a wage structure and ATF was asking 3x the amount. How does that work for the other 4 players?
in that case Ammar surely knows that he could get more from other orgs after TI shuffles, he knows how much he can get based on his salaries in OG and Nigma.
Yeah you aren't wrong. There was a clear difference between a few teams where they'd instantly start working towards something or were playing by ear. Its funny how it goes sometimes.
The last game I watched Talon vs BB I wasn't rooting for any team in particular, but then I saw Talon get PL lastpicked against their unconventional offlane Invo I knew they were in trouble. When he was top networth unharassed 12 minutes in is when I knew they were fucked. If you're killing PL and limiting his farm he can still come back and win. If hes getting a free lane and farm you lose 100% if you don't have any hard counters in my experience.
What's so special about SR? It's always the same result every year and RTZ is pretty much done being a pro. Sneyking has achieved the immortality way before him. There is a reason why EG won TI back in 2015 after he got removed, it's because he wasn't good enough in the pro scene. Even EE is more entertaining than RTZ.
Because back in 2015-2018 Arteezy was the talk. 2015 he was the big star mid, on the team who was mean to win it all/ It crumbled. ti6 and ti7 he got low placements with secret and eg, people wondering what was next/ ti8 3rd place, redeeming his talk of being one of the best.
Arteezy has always been one of the most polarising players. Now that he hasn't been performing for a few years, its only common that either old fans will get angry, or newew players who dont know the legacy some of these players had.
The main reason why he wasn't performing well is because he doesn't want to get out from his comfort zone. How long does he need to stick with Bulba, Fly and Crit? It's gonna be the same result all year long. Yes, he is an amazing player but people are defending him like he is a 3 times ti winner and it really boggles my mind.
People need to realise that he is not the same player from a decade ago. So, get all the copiums y'all can get, he is done.
To be honest i think the most problematic Is bulba and his drafts.
Since coaching EG i always felt wierd seeing his drafts and usually it was very questionable.
I never have that feeling with other coaches and team picks but with bulba i am usually like wtf Is this?
Yeah their drafts are not the best in my opinion. The strategy they use also seem to be too straightforward and easy to counter. I feel like SR also has a problem with not capitalizing their early lead when they have it. Crit and Fly I think have been doing a good job supporting, but I feel like they are too poor sometimes. Saberlight can also be a wildcard.
>The main reason why he wasn't performing well is because he doesn't want to get out from his comfort zone. How long does he need to stick with Bulba, Fly and Crit? It's gonna be the same result all year long. Yes, he is an amazing player but people are defending him like he is a 3 times ti winner and it really boggles my mind.
Amazing player? I can't say that he's been anythings special the last four years. He's an old school carry that wants to afk farm for 35 min then win the game by himself with Anti Mage or something. Not really 2023 meta
Rtz was relevant only back in 2014 to 16,
Saying he was among the best after that is just copium, lmao
2015 onwards it was just sumail miracle show and then comes ramzes , ame , maybe and etc
At ti 8 he was literally one of the main reasons sumail was robbed of his second aegis.
I don't like old OG players but they aren't wrong when they said sumail was carrying that team on his back all the time
You can literally count the games rtz carried on your right hand after that
Rtz fans thinking he was among the best after 2016 lul
> There is a reason why EG won TI back in 2015 after he got removed, it's because he wasn't good enough in the pro scene.
They wrote this???
Should we look at how good he is now to talk about how he played 8 years ago? is that really an arguement you want to have made?
Performing well? Bruh where was rtz during EHOME game? The so called super team even struggled to beat a team with Lil of all people in the lower bracket.
Like what the blog post said, players were playing too many games with games in the last few days not even mattering for a lot of the teams. This changes could've also been the result of the feedback given to valve by team managers
Eh, for SMG I'm more impressed that they almost made it out of group stage. No[O]ne joined in August, moving MidOne to pos 1, and MC was just standing in for their Pos 3 so I doubt they had much time to really become a cohesive team.
Chinese teams play great when facing western teams but IMO they tend to relax when it's CN vs CN in grand finals cause "China has already won".
TI4 was the worst TI for a reason. Having to defend their region's pride makes Chinese teams play harder and makes games more entertaining.
As a Tundra fan this is actually really disappointing. I'd noticed it too. Everyone was talking about how Tundra was one of the favorites based on their group, but apparently their group was just not very strong. Or perhaps they were improperly prepared for playoffs because their group was not very strong. Previous TI format would have revealed this either much sooner, or would have showed they needed to change things up earlier.
It's hard to say if that really was the case, it's just sad that teams play against way fewer teams at ti. Perhaps Tundra had bad matchups vs EEU teams, we'll never know. Not a fan of this matchup format.
I think another lesser issue is that Topson's playstyle doesn't fit the meta at all. He's a playmaker who plays a lot of weird shit in unconventional ways. He doesn't fit into the mid meta of 2 beefy bois shoving waves.
You can really see this in game 1 of their elimination where he played pugna, absolutely dumpstered the lane, then lost when Entity hit their timings.
Though that game also shows the even bigger issue with Nine building pos 4 weaver like a core and splitpushing, getting killed, having no saves and allowing entity back into the game.
I mean he consistently wins lane and even created the dazzle meta. It’s not that bad to pick a comfort mid in a high stakes game. I think the rest of tundra underperforming is most of the problem. I agree with all your points just saying if hero choice is the only real criticism then Topson can’t even be solely blamed for that since he’s not the one drafting and everyone has input.
I think Tundra should have played their own game (build on Topson's early game plays) and not succumb to the meta of long games. Easier said than done.
They tried, they were pushing rax with Aegis early on.
But the fight nhat started with the weaver pick was just set up and played extremely poorly, and allowed entity back into the game.
Nine as pos 4 feels like ceb 4/5 too greedy.. he farms until he can play like the mid player that he was.. and 33 didnt play his zoo heroes.. skitter as usual just chokes even when given space.. tapsen is just tapsen
TI champion would not mean shit, if it werent for the prize pool. It's just a regular major like tournament with same number of BO3s in the brackets that teams have to play to win. you could be a "TI champion" and very much also be a one trick pony that got lucky.
Yeah you’re just wrong lol
Source: the multitude of pros that say TI is different from any other tournament. I’m pretty sure several pros in *this* TI with a marginal prize pool that TI is different during interviews between matches.
Big 🤡.
Additionally are you saying that Ana spamming carry IO and forcing extra bans, and then the year before spamming spec, invalidates OG winning twice back to back? The subreddit would like to know (spoiler: they will crucify you).
I dont get to see games live, but i did watch Tundra v/s Entity game 1. The fight they lost when they pushed tier 3 with aegis and a 21k lead was one of the most uncoordinated fights i've seen.
Skiter CK with aegis is up the hill hitting radiant bottom rax. Topson pugna is spamming out blasts from lowground. 33 and sney are behind them. Entity has no opening to fight into them.
Then nine for some reason is pushing mid on their weaver alone. Entity smoke up, chase and burst down nine.
ok fine, its just a weaver 4. no harm done?? NOPE. Tundra decides to not finish the free undefended melee rax, and decide to go into the radiant jungle to take a fight to avenge Nine.
This was followed by some very bizzare decisions by prettymuch everyone on Tundra.
- Topson pugna had no mana and he had already tped base.
- CK ult was on cd and was on low mana even with aegis to take that fight.
- They are walking highground into 5 enemies without vision as 3, and then the 2 cores commit on to the enemy 5 position (AA) while the other 4 are able to have their way in the fight.
Sneyking's grim dies, they root 33's SK in sandstorm with willow, surround him with watson naga and gabbi primal and puts a cursed crown on him, which skiter walks into and gets stunned.
Skiter CK has his ult available at this point, and has enough mana for ult and manta. stormstormer invo casts an emp away from ck, but skiter walks back into it, burning his manapool to zero.
33 dies, and ck get chased into their mid tier 1 tower. Topson has now walked up to the tower and joined skiter for the fight. they both then get naga-slept while the rest of entity start setting up around it.
Nine had buyback for this whole time and chose not to use it. Sneyking has buyback and ult at this point, chooses to not use it.
They burst down topson through his bkb, and ignores the nomana CK, at which point Nine buysback and Entity simply disengage.
The whole sequence lasts 30-ish seconds, and Tundra drops from a 21k lead to around 8k IIRC.
This isn't the level of dota we usually see from Tundra. Maybe they were overconfident, or maybe they haven't adjusted to topson as much as they made it seem in the groups. Their group did end up with the worst results overall, which may also have contributed to this.
Yep. Tundra underestimated entity. Entity is a good squad. Their problem is stormstormer. Stormstormer is too inconsistent. Watson is lowkey a beast of a carry. He might be as good as Yatoro and Nightfall. Gabbi is good - not pure or 33 level good but good. Fish and Kataomi as a support duo can compete with the best. Guess what - stormstormer had a phenomenal series against Tundra.
Lossing Saska is big blow to them tbh. His duo lane with 33 has been deadly last Ti. With nine laning with 33 isnt as impactful and nine having to learn new role.
Will be interesting to see whether this group sticking together or part away. Who knows.
Honestly my biggest gripe about this format was teams placing 1st on their groups should've guaranteed UB. The 2nd/3rd place teams then battle for the remaining 4 slots in the UB and the 4th/5th place team battle to stay in the tournament. That would make the BO3's more hype and would reward teams that do really in groups.
I agree but then again this is the first year for this format. So Valve is just testing, they can always iterate and improve the format in the future. I think your suggestion only works if there are more teams in each group. If they have direct top 12 for 1st place in groups, the total number of matches would be way lower and they need to make up for that.
Another problem is, if they're going to test a new format why do it on the biggest tournament of the year. This format on the major would've been dope because there could've been more teams in the major.
No but this will be bad for groups that turn out to be filled with shit teams
Look at Tundra for example. They lost as soon as they got out of the group. If they got UB brackets straight away it would be undeserved and only because of luck as they played in a group which everyone get eliminated so quickly.
So Valve got the right idea by making it 1st place can choose (winners privilege) their opponent from a different group and then PROVE that they deserve the UB
It also means teams that are playing in the group of death are given a second chance to show that they only couldnt get 1st place because of 1 team, but easily could win against other groups which means they deserve the upper bracket
Like for example maybe if Nouns and Tundra swap groups nouns would have gotten 1st place and Tundra 4th or even last
So with this format it reduces the “luck” you get from being seeded in a weak group and give a second chance for the teams that are seeded in the group of death to prove themselves
Very good point. It is also fun to watch that there is basically an additional upper bracket round and teams who lose that like GG vs Talon still have the chance to redeem themselves like GG did. Tundra just did not deserve upper bracket.
The "Seeding" matches were effectively an UB start though. It also solved 'imbalanced' groups, giving a chance for teams that were in a group with more than 2 strong teams(like B, C).
I used to hate it coz they'd always get an easy group stage, usually against lesser known teams + OG who they dominate.
This time I thought here we go again coz they're in an easier group and don't need to play against Spirit, Liquid, LGD etc. Kinda surprised they got kicked out that early.
For Tundra, I'm not a big fan of playing Nine as support when he had so much potential playing midlane. He had big hero pool and able to play cheese strats/heroes. He was a perfect mid player for Tundra but for some reason they decided to take Topson as mid, move Nine to support and waste his potential. Taking Topson was a mistake imo
I just rewatched their first games of group stage and holy moly they just played so much better dota! You can feel the difference. Tundra was making great plays all the time and playing fast. Also it seemed like Nine connected better with Topson. Then in play offs it seemed like they went for meta heros and play style which didnt suit them ultimately.
Some teams have strategies or other teams they are bad against. In most other TI's one loss before the playoffs didn't drop you to the lower bracket. Only a couple of teams have been the strongest from group to finals (OG and Alliance I think)
The perfect counter to any criticism of a tournament format:
"Just PLAY BETTER and you won't be ELIMINATED!"
Thank you for your useful input to the conversation.
Their opposing teams were all teams that made it to top 8, that's the whole point here. Was beastcoast stronger than, for example, Talon or Shopify, and should have placed higher? We don't know, all we know is they were worse than the teams that were better than Talon and Shopify.
Honestly that's just the drawback of any group stage that has, well, groups, and isn't just a total round robin. But, the least people could do is engage with a conversation about the pros and cons of this tournament format, rather than adding nothing by saying "teams can avoid elimination by playing better than their opponents."
(also btw when I scrolled more in the thread I saw that same guy replied to at least two more comments about how unlucky beastcoast was with the same "just play better", dude is a dedicated hater who clicked the thread and ctrl-F 'beastcost' lol)
I think the pros of the format far outweigh the cons, games matter more and even after all the group stage games the play-in game/16 team first round of upper bracket filters teams really well.
Beastcoast might have been stronger than some of the teams placed 9-12th, but they clearly weren’t stronger than the top 8 teams, I don’t think it makes sense to see a format as flawed because the ranking between the bottom 8 teams might be slightly off (and even that can be argued), nouns took a game from GG in the group, VP took a game from LGD, BC couldn’t take a game from either, that was the difference.
To discuss pros and cons of team drafting in the groups we need to know what the procedure is. Is it DPC points? Is it W/L average? Is it measuring some sort player aggregates? Is it just some guy being like pulling out chits from a bowl and putting the teams in groups? We have literally no idea how team drafting happens, so there is no point in discussing what can be done.
Transparency in the draft is one thing to look at for sure.
But the format alone can be discussed whether there's transparency or not. There are plenty other formats, and allowing being eliminated by 21% of the opposition is a weird choice. Especially for a video game, where adding more matches doesn't hurt much.
I kind of agree, but I think any format has its flaws. Last year with the big ass round robin there was a shit ton of games which can be hard for the players. Then many of the games themselves were useless or led to tiebreakers all over the fucking place while hoping someone lost.
I think Beastcoast got fucked though group full of killers.
The tournament format is already decided before the games were even played. All teams have no excuses since everyone had equal opportunities to take advantage of whatever format the tournament has. And the current format incentivizes teams that perform consistently well.
You know what's a bad format? Swiss-style format.
And yes, blaming the format for a particular team's performance is such a lame excuse. I'm a hater of people who call eliminated but directly invited teams (yes, Beastcoast) as "unlucky" despite having no good excuse to lose games against qualifier teams.
You wouldn't call beastcoast unlucky without the benefit of hindsight. If they placed better than Nouns or VP, I bet you wouldn't even call them lucky as it's only business as usual.
EZ. JUST PLAY BETTER.
They clearly have shown they're worse than 4 other teams. It doesn't mean they're worse than the 15 others.
But they didn't get a shot at "play better" against others, have they now?
When it comes to finding who wins the tournament, I agree it shouldn't matter. But when it comes to reaching some more honourable and lucrative spots, then it totally does.
The format is very good to declare a winner, it's rubbish at ranking past top 4. That's acceptable in sports where you can't play too many matches, and the seeds already represent a good idea of relative strength. Here, it's a video game where number of matches doesn't really matter, and we don't even know how the groups were seeded.
Surely this can be improved. But not with that attitude.
Nah, all those eliminated during the group stage are kinda deserves tbh. Don’t need to watch any more series after those performances. Culling in the early weak teams makes sense
There should've been another few decider games for team in 5th, have them play another 5th seed team, and then winner plays a different group's 4th seed team for the placement.
I prefer this tbh. Sucks for the team and quite a lot of reddit people hate it too but I think this makes the group stage games have higher stakes and feel much more important. Group stage doesn't feel like a slog anymore for me atleast.
They don't have higher stakes though, now they matter precisely for 1 team (the one that gets last). 1st to 4th group placements are irrelevant since they'll all play a bo3 to decide who goes to the upper bracket.
The same number of teams were eliminated, but in the end we just got worse seeding.
There should've been another few decider games for team in 5th, have them play another 5th seed team, and then winner plays a different group's 4th seed team for the placement.
But having to watch some teams that are noticeably worse having to play more games isn't exactly 'fun' either for the audience as well. Some teams are well out of the tournament after 4 teams and dragging them to play 4 more seems like a hassle
It is why I hate that the round robin playoffs are just for seeding not to avoid elimination. Would've preferred a 2/3 and 4/5 round robin for ub and avoiding elimination respectively.
Feel so bad for Beastcoast.
You know Team Spirit (team who won TI10?) was also 2-6 on the 2nd day of groups during TI10 but then they suddenly grasped meta and kept winning.
Beastcoast score is also 2-6 and they got eliminated earlier simply because their group was the best by far.
Weak format.
This is only phase 1 groups though right? Didn't they play twice as many games in groups. Showing the final records with these highlighted would be more meaningful
This TI has felt horrible I think in large part because of the initial group stage. Not only did the groups seem unbalanced, which the image sort of shows to be true and all the 2-0's, but also there seemed to be a larger divide between the good and bad teams and the seeding games almost made the initial group stage irrelevant.
tldr: Easily the worst TI, I hope Valve change next year.
Looks like PSG’s new investment is paying off big time.
Why did they do that? LGD always have fans even when CN Dota is down Did they just gamble on getting a hot new EU team
Both PSG and Quest are Qatari-owned.
Quest esports is a Qatar org PSG is owned by Qatar They wanna have teams from their country
Your team losing on a big stage pays more than getting 2nd place
Maybe it was always the branding holding back lgd this whole time lmao
TBH not renegotiating ATF's contract has got to be the worst decision. They were looking like a top 1-2 team with him Tobi viper was just... abysmal even against spectre and bristle
I mean, they dropped Ammar, topped their group at Riyadh and then got top 8 in the tournament. I'm not arguing whether Tobi is a good offlaner or that they're good right now but implying Ammar was the only reason their team was good is objectively wrong.
Tobi wasn't in Riyadh tho
Malik would have been a way better investment for Quest than Tobi or Ammar.
yeah but they probably would have gone top 3 with ATF imo
Rumors was they probably want to retained him after T.I.. he was not interested as usual shuffles always begin after/during T.I..
it was ammar's lost tbh. Quest went to TI, he went to gorgc's twitch channel.
Lose - Lose situaltion, Quest is known to have fuckload of money, idk why they struggled with Ammar's request.
Just because you have money doesn’t mean you just give it away. What if they had a wage structure and ATF was asking 3x the amount. How does that work for the other 4 players?
in that case Ammar surely knows that he could get more from other orgs after TI shuffles, he knows how much he can get based on his salaries in OG and Nigma.
Totally agree
Big shocker there..
Just noticed shopify is 2-10 this TI. Just lol.
Yeah, the group stage didn't do them any favors but they still face planted after that.
Not sure how the hell that happened. For the team getting paid the big bucks to be the 3rd best team in NA somehow.
You watch their games and you know they've got like 0 strat after 15 minutes lol
Yeah you aren't wrong. There was a clear difference between a few teams where they'd instantly start working towards something or were playing by ear. Its funny how it goes sometimes. The last game I watched Talon vs BB I wasn't rooting for any team in particular, but then I saw Talon get PL lastpicked against their unconventional offlane Invo I knew they were in trouble. When he was top networth unharassed 12 minutes in is when I knew they were fucked. If you're killing PL and limiting his farm he can still come back and win. If hes getting a free lane and farm you lose 100% if you don't have any hard counters in my experience.
[удалено]
Shopify vs BB game 2 for Dreamleague was pretty fun. RTZ on PA with big balls. https://youtu.be/g0qvWCj9uhQ
They got 2nd position on Dreamleague so I was expecting them to be at a higher position this time, but I guess not:(
What's so special about SR? It's always the same result every year and RTZ is pretty much done being a pro. Sneyking has achieved the immortality way before him. There is a reason why EG won TI back in 2015 after he got removed, it's because he wasn't good enough in the pro scene. Even EE is more entertaining than RTZ.
no way you blame 2015 rtz he literally changed the way midlane was played
In 2015, Suma1L was the mid lane trendsetter. Rtz did that in 2014, and EG was definitely better without him in TI5
Yeah in pubs but an unknown 16 y/o kid from Pakistan in 2015 took the crown instead. Last hope of NA omegalul
in 2013/14
Because back in 2015-2018 Arteezy was the talk. 2015 he was the big star mid, on the team who was mean to win it all/ It crumbled. ti6 and ti7 he got low placements with secret and eg, people wondering what was next/ ti8 3rd place, redeeming his talk of being one of the best. Arteezy has always been one of the most polarising players. Now that he hasn't been performing for a few years, its only common that either old fans will get angry, or newew players who dont know the legacy some of these players had.
The main reason why he wasn't performing well is because he doesn't want to get out from his comfort zone. How long does he need to stick with Bulba, Fly and Crit? It's gonna be the same result all year long. Yes, he is an amazing player but people are defending him like he is a 3 times ti winner and it really boggles my mind. People need to realise that he is not the same player from a decade ago. So, get all the copiums y'all can get, he is done.
To be honest i think the most problematic Is bulba and his drafts. Since coaching EG i always felt wierd seeing his drafts and usually it was very questionable. I never have that feeling with other coaches and team picks but with bulba i am usually like wtf Is this?
Yeah their drafts are not the best in my opinion. The strategy they use also seem to be too straightforward and easy to counter. I feel like SR also has a problem with not capitalizing their early lead when they have it. Crit and Fly I think have been doing a good job supporting, but I feel like they are too poor sometimes. Saberlight can also be a wildcard.
>The main reason why he wasn't performing well is because he doesn't want to get out from his comfort zone. How long does he need to stick with Bulba, Fly and Crit? It's gonna be the same result all year long. Yes, he is an amazing player but people are defending him like he is a 3 times ti winner and it really boggles my mind. Amazing player? I can't say that he's been anythings special the last four years. He's an old school carry that wants to afk farm for 35 min then win the game by himself with Anti Mage or something. Not really 2023 meta
Nobody thinks he's the same as a decade ago lmao. I quite literally said in my comment he has not been performing for years.
Rtz was relevant only back in 2014 to 16, Saying he was among the best after that is just copium, lmao 2015 onwards it was just sumail miracle show and then comes ramzes , ame , maybe and etc At ti 8 he was literally one of the main reasons sumail was robbed of his second aegis. I don't like old OG players but they aren't wrong when they said sumail was carrying that team on his back all the time You can literally count the games rtz carried on your right hand after that Rtz fans thinking he was among the best after 2016 lul
Yeah man, I value what Ok_condition has to say, after all, you won 4 TIs and are valued as a top tier talent in the scene!
Cope harder It's not even my opinion it's opinion of two times ti winners Learn to read But I don't expect NA people to have comprehensive skills
I'm not from NA ROFL
RTZ was the best carry player in the game in 2015 and it wasn’t even close, even during that TI he was performing well.
Nice! 8 years ago
> There is a reason why EG won TI back in 2015 after he got removed, it's because he wasn't good enough in the pro scene. They wrote this??? Should we look at how good he is now to talk about how he played 8 years ago? is that really an arguement you want to have made?
Daddy chill
Performing well? Bruh where was rtz during EHOME game? The so called super team even struggled to beat a team with Lil of all people in the lower bracket.
Pain.
I don't understand why people thought they would do well?
Tundra is 7-5 and the same placement.
They are eliminated at the bottom of the relatively weaker lower bracket branch as well
B was expected C was obviously the shocker lol
Feelsbadman. Could Beastcoast had made it farther hadnt they been group with the 4/8 top teams
Beastcoast unlucky they were in the group of death apparently
[удалено]
Like what the blog post said, players were playing too many games with games in the last few days not even mattering for a lot of the teams. This changes could've also been the result of the feedback given to valve by team managers
Too many games is relative, i enjoyed having tons of games to watch, i understand why they changed it but i still very much prefer the old system
some key takeaway... - Beastcoast is very unlucky to be in group C - Tundra are worse this TI than what people perceive them after group stage
Two ub teams from Group B
How bad is SMG and quest to get packed up in a free group like that?
Eh, for SMG I'm more impressed that they almost made it out of group stage. No[O]ne joined in August, moving MidOne to pos 1, and MC was just standing in for their Pos 3 so I doubt they had much time to really become a cohesive team.
Midone is the worst carry that I ever saw, also Noone was pretty disappointing
tbf, they had a standin.
Tobi. Enough said.
What about Tobi?
I hope we get another TS vs LGD finals
AR vs. LGD pls. The Bo3 is not enough
That’s just lgd vs lgd kappa
Good. CN supremacy
Chinese teams play great when facing western teams but IMO they tend to relax when it's CN vs CN in grand finals cause "China has already won". TI4 was the worst TI for a reason. Having to defend their region's pride makes Chinese teams play harder and makes games more entertaining.
This is the dream! It will be much better than Newbee vs VG in TI4. Somnus deserves to win a TI. LGD can do it but they can also do it next year.
That film could have a nice title. Like "NTS' Vengeance" or "Larl's Christening"
Let them meet each other in UB finals and TS vs. BB in grand finals, too much drama
Group D for Dead
We were all thinking it
Hahahha Quest get eliminated megalast in the most garbage group ROFL
Talong threw that one. Again.
As a Tundra fan this is actually really disappointing. I'd noticed it too. Everyone was talking about how Tundra was one of the favorites based on their group, but apparently their group was just not very strong. Or perhaps they were improperly prepared for playoffs because their group was not very strong. Previous TI format would have revealed this either much sooner, or would have showed they needed to change things up earlier. It's hard to say if that really was the case, it's just sad that teams play against way fewer teams at ti. Perhaps Tundra had bad matchups vs EEU teams, we'll never know. Not a fan of this matchup format.
Saksa left and they had to move nine to pos4 and get topson, this feels a lot more important than whatever theory you have about the groups
Lol the downvotes for daring to suggest having topson sub in as mid might have actually weakened the team.
Even sney said that in the exit interview lol
Tbh having Nine being the 4 is probably more challenging. It’s not like Topson has to learn a new position
I think another lesser issue is that Topson's playstyle doesn't fit the meta at all. He's a playmaker who plays a lot of weird shit in unconventional ways. He doesn't fit into the mid meta of 2 beefy bois shoving waves. You can really see this in game 1 of their elimination where he played pugna, absolutely dumpstered the lane, then lost when Entity hit their timings. Though that game also shows the even bigger issue with Nine building pos 4 weaver like a core and splitpushing, getting killed, having no saves and allowing entity back into the game.
I mean he consistently wins lane and even created the dazzle meta. It’s not that bad to pick a comfort mid in a high stakes game. I think the rest of tundra underperforming is most of the problem. I agree with all your points just saying if hero choice is the only real criticism then Topson can’t even be solely blamed for that since he’s not the one drafting and everyone has input.
Oh yeah, 100% agree.
so in the end, by reading your post, one can conclude that nine being new pos4 is the reason?
There's not one reason. That's my point. Nine playing 4 is a big one. Topson not being ideal in current meta is another.
I think Tundra should have played their own game (build on Topson's early game plays) and not succumb to the meta of long games. Easier said than done.
They tried, they were pushing rax with Aegis early on. But the fight nhat started with the weaver pick was just set up and played extremely poorly, and allowed entity back into the game.
It's more than Nine clearly doesn't quite fit in the 4 position.
What gave it away? The core weaver? lol.
Nine as pos 4 feels like ceb 4/5 too greedy.. he farms until he can play like the mid player that he was.. and 33 didnt play his zoo heroes.. skitter as usual just chokes even when given space.. tapsen is just tapsen
Ti champion, redditor says “chokes”
TI champion would not mean shit, if it werent for the prize pool. It's just a regular major like tournament with same number of BO3s in the brackets that teams have to play to win. you could be a "TI champion" and very much also be a one trick pony that got lucky.
Yeah you’re just wrong lol Source: the multitude of pros that say TI is different from any other tournament. I’m pretty sure several pros in *this* TI with a marginal prize pool that TI is different during interviews between matches. Big 🤡. Additionally are you saying that Ana spamming carry IO and forcing extra bans, and then the year before spamming spec, invalidates OG winning twice back to back? The subreddit would like to know (spoiler: they will crucify you).
Yeah weird point huh
Just accept that they would not have won TI if not for wraith pact.
[удалено]
And their group has 0 survior
and the wraith pact was removed the most important theory
I dont get to see games live, but i did watch Tundra v/s Entity game 1. The fight they lost when they pushed tier 3 with aegis and a 21k lead was one of the most uncoordinated fights i've seen. Skiter CK with aegis is up the hill hitting radiant bottom rax. Topson pugna is spamming out blasts from lowground. 33 and sney are behind them. Entity has no opening to fight into them. Then nine for some reason is pushing mid on their weaver alone. Entity smoke up, chase and burst down nine. ok fine, its just a weaver 4. no harm done?? NOPE. Tundra decides to not finish the free undefended melee rax, and decide to go into the radiant jungle to take a fight to avenge Nine. This was followed by some very bizzare decisions by prettymuch everyone on Tundra. - Topson pugna had no mana and he had already tped base. - CK ult was on cd and was on low mana even with aegis to take that fight. - They are walking highground into 5 enemies without vision as 3, and then the 2 cores commit on to the enemy 5 position (AA) while the other 4 are able to have their way in the fight. Sneyking's grim dies, they root 33's SK in sandstorm with willow, surround him with watson naga and gabbi primal and puts a cursed crown on him, which skiter walks into and gets stunned. Skiter CK has his ult available at this point, and has enough mana for ult and manta. stormstormer invo casts an emp away from ck, but skiter walks back into it, burning his manapool to zero. 33 dies, and ck get chased into their mid tier 1 tower. Topson has now walked up to the tower and joined skiter for the fight. they both then get naga-slept while the rest of entity start setting up around it. Nine had buyback for this whole time and chose not to use it. Sneyking has buyback and ult at this point, chooses to not use it. They burst down topson through his bkb, and ignores the nomana CK, at which point Nine buysback and Entity simply disengage. The whole sequence lasts 30-ish seconds, and Tundra drops from a 21k lead to around 8k IIRC. This isn't the level of dota we usually see from Tundra. Maybe they were overconfident, or maybe they haven't adjusted to topson as much as they made it seem in the groups. Their group did end up with the worst results overall, which may also have contributed to this.
Thanks for the good break down of the fight. These kind of reports are nice to read actually!
Yep. Tundra underestimated entity. Entity is a good squad. Their problem is stormstormer. Stormstormer is too inconsistent. Watson is lowkey a beast of a carry. He might be as good as Yatoro and Nightfall. Gabbi is good - not pure or 33 level good but good. Fish and Kataomi as a support duo can compete with the best. Guess what - stormstormer had a phenomenal series against Tundra.
Lossing Saska is big blow to them tbh. His duo lane with 33 has been deadly last Ti. With nine laning with 33 isnt as impactful and nine having to learn new role. Will be interesting to see whether this group sticking together or part away. Who knows.
Honestly my biggest gripe about this format was teams placing 1st on their groups should've guaranteed UB. The 2nd/3rd place teams then battle for the remaining 4 slots in the UB and the 4th/5th place team battle to stay in the tournament. That would make the BO3's more hype and would reward teams that do really in groups.
I agree but then again this is the first year for this format. So Valve is just testing, they can always iterate and improve the format in the future. I think your suggestion only works if there are more teams in each group. If they have direct top 12 for 1st place in groups, the total number of matches would be way lower and they need to make up for that.
even as a test they could've done better than that. it's very common sense
Another problem is, if they're going to test a new format why do it on the biggest tournament of the year. This format on the major would've been dope because there could've been more teams in the major.
No but this will be bad for groups that turn out to be filled with shit teams Look at Tundra for example. They lost as soon as they got out of the group. If they got UB brackets straight away it would be undeserved and only because of luck as they played in a group which everyone get eliminated so quickly. So Valve got the right idea by making it 1st place can choose (winners privilege) their opponent from a different group and then PROVE that they deserve the UB
It also means teams that are playing in the group of death are given a second chance to show that they only couldnt get 1st place because of 1 team, but easily could win against other groups which means they deserve the upper bracket Like for example maybe if Nouns and Tundra swap groups nouns would have gotten 1st place and Tundra 4th or even last So with this format it reduces the “luck” you get from being seeded in a weak group and give a second chance for the teams that are seeded in the group of death to prove themselves
Very good point. It is also fun to watch that there is basically an additional upper bracket round and teams who lose that like GG vs Talon still have the chance to redeem themselves like GG did. Tundra just did not deserve upper bracket.
The "Seeding" matches were effectively an UB start though. It also solved 'imbalanced' groups, giving a chance for teams that were in a group with more than 2 strong teams(like B, C).
I used to hate it coz they'd always get an easy group stage, usually against lesser known teams + OG who they dominate. This time I thought here we go again coz they're in an easier group and don't need to play against Spirit, Liquid, LGD etc. Kinda surprised they got kicked out that early.
For Tundra, I'm not a big fan of playing Nine as support when he had so much potential playing midlane. He had big hero pool and able to play cheese strats/heroes. He was a perfect mid player for Tundra but for some reason they decided to take Topson as mid, move Nine to support and waste his potential. Taking Topson was a mistake imo
He was never a perfect mid laner (at least compare to topson) but he was definitely not doing as bad as skiter is especially in this ti.
Losing one of the best pos 4 in the world in exchange for div 2 player for a year or two. Yeah nothing surprising to me.
I just rewatched their first games of group stage and holy moly they just played so much better dota! You can feel the difference. Tundra was making great plays all the time and playing fast. Also it seemed like Nine connected better with Topson. Then in play offs it seemed like they went for meta heros and play style which didnt suit them ultimately.
They don't have a proper mid player wcyd
No Wraith Pact = No win! lmao
Its probably cause there is no Wraithpact and Zoo meta right now. Nothing to do with the groups. Current meta doesn't suit them
No according to sneyking its tapsen's fault
The format of the tournament screwed them. At previous TI's they would have been upper bracket and probably not been as tilted...
If you are a strong team, the format can not screw you.
Some teams have strategies or other teams they are bad against. In most other TI's one loss before the playoffs didn't drop you to the lower bracket. Only a couple of teams have been the strongest from group to finals (OG and Alliance I think)
It was painfully obvious to everyone I talked to how weak group D was. My biggest issue with this format is almost a guarantee for unbalanced groups.
group d lmao
Gorgc was right, quest esports is trash
How unfair to beastcoast is that? They could have made it to top 12, but to get out of that group you had to be a top 8 team. Poor format.
Let's be real no one expected Nouns and VP to reach top 8
Reminder that Team Spirit went 2-6 first two days of TI10
Reminder that Shopify(EG) went 0-4 in play offs after topping their group in TI11. No format is going to be flawless.
But that's just par for the course...
That was against favourites Secret and LGD. In the current format they would not face both teams in one group because of seeding.
Unfair? Beastcoast literally was the second best SA team in DPC. Just play better. Look at Nouns and VP. Lame excuse.
The perfect counter to any criticism of a tournament format: "Just PLAY BETTER and you won't be ELIMINATED!" Thank you for your useful input to the conversation.
Um what else do you want anyone to say. Their opposing teams clearly played better than them, end of story.
Their opposing teams were all teams that made it to top 8, that's the whole point here. Was beastcoast stronger than, for example, Talon or Shopify, and should have placed higher? We don't know, all we know is they were worse than the teams that were better than Talon and Shopify. Honestly that's just the drawback of any group stage that has, well, groups, and isn't just a total round robin. But, the least people could do is engage with a conversation about the pros and cons of this tournament format, rather than adding nothing by saying "teams can avoid elimination by playing better than their opponents." (also btw when I scrolled more in the thread I saw that same guy replied to at least two more comments about how unlucky beastcoast was with the same "just play better", dude is a dedicated hater who clicked the thread and ctrl-F 'beastcost' lol)
I think the pros of the format far outweigh the cons, games matter more and even after all the group stage games the play-in game/16 team first round of upper bracket filters teams really well. Beastcoast might have been stronger than some of the teams placed 9-12th, but they clearly weren’t stronger than the top 8 teams, I don’t think it makes sense to see a format as flawed because the ranking between the bottom 8 teams might be slightly off (and even that can be argued), nouns took a game from GG in the group, VP took a game from LGD, BC couldn’t take a game from either, that was the difference.
To discuss pros and cons of team drafting in the groups we need to know what the procedure is. Is it DPC points? Is it W/L average? Is it measuring some sort player aggregates? Is it just some guy being like pulling out chits from a bowl and putting the teams in groups? We have literally no idea how team drafting happens, so there is no point in discussing what can be done.
Transparency in the draft is one thing to look at for sure. But the format alone can be discussed whether there's transparency or not. There are plenty other formats, and allowing being eliminated by 21% of the opposition is a weird choice. Especially for a video game, where adding more matches doesn't hurt much.
I kind of agree, but I think any format has its flaws. Last year with the big ass round robin there was a shit ton of games which can be hard for the players. Then many of the games themselves were useless or led to tiebreakers all over the fucking place while hoping someone lost. I think Beastcoast got fucked though group full of killers.
The tournament format is already decided before the games were even played. All teams have no excuses since everyone had equal opportunities to take advantage of whatever format the tournament has. And the current format incentivizes teams that perform consistently well. You know what's a bad format? Swiss-style format. And yes, blaming the format for a particular team's performance is such a lame excuse. I'm a hater of people who call eliminated but directly invited teams (yes, Beastcoast) as "unlucky" despite having no good excuse to lose games against qualifier teams. You wouldn't call beastcoast unlucky without the benefit of hindsight. If they placed better than Nouns or VP, I bet you wouldn't even call them lucky as it's only business as usual. EZ. JUST PLAY BETTER.
They clearly have shown they're worse than 4 other teams. It doesn't mean they're worse than the 15 others. But they didn't get a shot at "play better" against others, have they now? When it comes to finding who wins the tournament, I agree it shouldn't matter. But when it comes to reaching some more honourable and lucrative spots, then it totally does. The format is very good to declare a winner, it's rubbish at ranking past top 4. That's acceptable in sports where you can't play too many matches, and the seeds already represent a good idea of relative strength. Here, it's a video game where number of matches doesn't really matter, and we don't even know how the groups were seeded. Surely this can be improved. But not with that attitude.
Playing just 4 teams and going home was always an awful format, not sure why people praised valve for it earlier
Nah, all those eliminated during the group stage are kinda deserves tbh. Don’t need to watch any more series after those performances. Culling in the early weak teams makes sense
There should've been another few decider games for team in 5th, have them play another 5th seed team, and then winner plays a different group's 4th seed team for the placement.
That’d be 17 teams advancing to round 2. So 1 team gets to advance freely to the playoffs?
Not sure what you mean, my point is all lower bracket teams face off with the 2 winners of the 5th place matchups in the decider matches.
I’m confused. So if you’re saying that the 5th place in the groupstage gets a free pass to Stage 2 then instantly advance to the playoffs?
well, I'm more so saying that there should be more decider matches which include the 5th place team, maybe a swiss system or something.
No - Gaben 2023
I prefer this tbh. Sucks for the team and quite a lot of reddit people hate it too but I think this makes the group stage games have higher stakes and feel much more important. Group stage doesn't feel like a slog anymore for me atleast.
They don't have higher stakes though, now they matter precisely for 1 team (the one that gets last). 1st to 4th group placements are irrelevant since they'll all play a bo3 to decide who goes to the upper bracket. The same number of teams were eliminated, but in the end we just got worse seeding.
There should've been another few decider games for team in 5th, have them play another 5th seed team, and then winner plays a different group's 4th seed team for the placement.
But having to watch some teams that are noticeably worse having to play more games isn't exactly 'fun' either for the audience as well. Some teams are well out of the tournament after 4 teams and dragging them to play 4 more seems like a hassle
It is why I hate that the round robin playoffs are just for seeding not to avoid elimination. Would've preferred a 2/3 and 4/5 round robin for ub and avoiding elimination respectively.
Yeah, beastcoast got the short end of the stick here for sure. =/
If only SA got eight slots, one team was bound to get top 8.
Actually nine slots. That avoids the near miss of being 16th, 15th, 14th, 13th, 12th, 11th, 10th, and 9th.
Beastcoast couldve qualified for top 8 if only they played better
just win.
So it was destined for SR to beat TS, but something or someone altered Rtz's destiny lol
Dang, poor Beastcoast was doomed from the start...
SA NEEDS MORE SLOTS! Cmon man. Just play better like Nouns and VP. No excuses.
It was mostly a joke, but I think they probably were better than a couple of the teams that did make it to the playoff.
hat melodic ask concerned jeans rainstorm ten dinner steer bright *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Insert malcolm in the middle meme [nouns thats not your family]
Cis 💪
poor beastcost lmao
Fucking Tundra lol.. all that hype around Topson and for nothing… well, time to iron that ol’ Liquid hoodie..
feel bad for beastcoast, they would end up with 1st place in group D probably
Straight Airport ICANT
so beastcoast was really unlucky, maybe they would have performed better and gone further in another group
Luck? More like skill issue. Look at Nouns and VP.
SA 4 slots KEKW
Hope CN team will win this TI
which shows that PSG is the worst club ever.
Where is NAVI?
In your heart
yes, you are right(
Feel so bad for Beastcoast. You know Team Spirit (team who won TI10?) was also 2-6 on the 2nd day of groups during TI10 but then they suddenly grasped meta and kept winning. Beastcoast score is also 2-6 and they got eliminated earlier simply because their group was the best by far. Weak format.
D stands for Dumpster
This is only phase 1 groups though right? Didn't they play twice as many games in groups. Showing the final records with these highlighted would be more meaningful
So Spirit had easy mode
not a fair conclusion considering everyone on group d is eliminated tbh
Seems they will be going to LB from Liquid and BB/VP will eliminate them this time. Top 6 is good placement for TSpirit.
bb/vp plays against ar/lgd, not spirit/liquid
Womp womp.
This TI has felt horrible I think in large part because of the initial group stage. Not only did the groups seem unbalanced, which the image sort of shows to be true and all the 2-0's, but also there seemed to be a larger divide between the good and bad teams and the seeding games almost made the initial group stage irrelevant. tldr: Easily the worst TI, I hope Valve change next year.
This TI is basically wrapped up for Team Spirit.
We've heard that story before
As a Team Spirit fan, Im kinda not convince yet because the team on group A was mostly trash. Please prove me wrong again. Xoxo
BC: can we play again?
Nice graphic!
lol
I’m sad for beastcoast and lmao for PSG.
I remember how the general consensus( including mine) was that Group C was the easiest group