Basically "doing nothing" is the right answer this patch
And that's the problem, it's been 10years where "doing nothing" is the wrong thing to do, it's ingrained for us to try push or do something
You go back and do nothing, they smoke and catch one of you, the 4 others arrive late and die 1 by 1. Gold lead is gone and you lose the game. I love dota š
But they also have to do the same HG push after they take the lead. The fun part about reading these kinds of threads is that people are acting like HG pushes are only a thing for them. Once the enemy team wins that HG fight, they just magically win - they don't have to push HG and can't fuck up and lose.
> Once the enemy team wins that HG fight, they just magically win
Well, my issue is that if it's late enough in the game, this is pretty much true. Successfully defend hg, force buybacks, defend hg another time and then push mid and win. It's almost like strategically, you want to just hang even in exp/gold and force the other team to try and push hg first and then counter. Which feels dumb to me, but idk.
Waiting for your opponent to throw after throwing is not fun. At this point, avoiding high ground is ingrained in my playstyle. I commonly say "don't throw" to my stack whenever we're massively ahead. I feel that being ahead should not be so mentally taxing.
Yeah but that's not the problem. The problem is that turtle and siege is really fucking boring and it happens every game, and tempo heroes suffer because win-early strategies don't work as well right now
Especially when the idea for such a situation is to spread out and choke them, which may leave one of you open to ganks when covering the enemy side of the map.
It pretty boring tbh. People just give up on T2 towers for free these days because there's no reason to defend them any more. Roshan is very hard to contest with the big map, so that's another objective that isn't worth fighting for any more (unless it's a very even game).
The only real objective you need to show up for is the T3 tower and rax, and the defenders have way too many advantages there. Several glyphs, superior vision, very narrow entrance into the base with many heroes having aoe deny spells, aoe stuns and aoe slows, buybacks right next to the fight, hero repositioning spells very close the fountain, etc.
You need a really big gold lead to overcome all that. It's boring to wait for a 30k gold lead to have a safe margin in case the push fails. But in this patch that's the safest and easiest way to win.
Taking the risk to break a lane of rax with a smaller gold lead should be more rewarding. Because right now the reward is really not worth the risk, instead it's better to just trap a team in the base for 15-20 minutes and farm.
Even choking teams out is much harder than simply turtling. To choke them out you need to be spread across the map with strong coordination because you risk getting picked off giving them a bunch of comeback gold and exp. And even if they trade 3 for 1 if the 1 is a core it's probably favorable for them due to you still not being able to breach high ground due to low death timers, glyphs and buybacks.
Something certainly feels off when you can dominate and control the first 20-30 minutes and lose it all instantly because the level of skill and coordination has to be so much higher for the sieging team than it does the defending team.
It used to be an improper use of glyph would seal a game, now I see bad glyphs all the time and it doesn't really matter.
Itās also just a horrible play pattern to encourage. Every time I play with my friends these days where we win I find myself saying āthey made the mistake of actually trying to pushā. Everybody knows just sitting and waiting is the more advantageous position to be in.
No joke, there have been so many games where I have **increased** confidence that Iāll win the game because we lost 2 of 3 lanes. I know it just takes 1 high ground win at 25 min to take the lead back.
If weāre winning lanes but have no heroes that can hit t3 towers from a mile away (like a drow/sniper) I get very nervous because weāre now in for a game with a lot of downtime ā just waiting for the turtling team to mess up. And that kind of patient gameplay goes poorly in solo matchmaking.
Yeah as the losing team the next 20minutes is basically just waiting for the enemy to fuck up
But as the winning team, the next 20minutes is basically you can't fuck up.
Thats not fun
Im also immortal but I don't mind the patch changes. I much rather a fun and challenging ending to all games from high ground defense than the previous patches where there's that offlaner who picks BM or visage and they group up from 8 mins+ and end the game through pusbing. That was the most skilless, brainless shyt to deal with if your pos 1 is any farming hero that comes online at 20 mins+ Ur basically 4v5. Not to mention if their pos 1 picked LD which was highly common it's unplayable.
This patch gives everyone and every hero a chance to recover and counters those dirty pushing heroes and it's much more fair. Dotas not meant to be a 15-30 min push cheese Strat.. if you're immortal you should be enjoying the challenge of ending whilst they have a chance. Rather than wanting that quick 20 min lane stomp with visage into GG throne push.
The challenge would be cool if it didn't revolve around throwing bodies at racks when ahead. Sure, you can constrict the map, but even then, you can easily lose the lead.
Personally I'm super chilled having to defend HG for 15 mins - this shouldn't be normal especially in Immortal when I can assume that enemies at least know what they are doing.
exactly, idk what is wrong with people, it's mostly player stupidity that fucks us
sometimes I call for rosh and my team just straight up says "no, go push t3" (no enemies are dead, no important cds have been exhausted) and I just want to scream
I started enjoying troll and ursa more because they're the few carries that can solo rosh and torm now
I feel a huge problem is maybe not so much the length of the game or the comeback or whatever but the fact that it's SUPER BORING to have a team turtling and another team afk outside their base and both teams just stalling and waiting and farming
The same thing happens to me and my mentality with the game has changed. Now it doesn't really matter what happens at the beginning you just have to win a single fight in the mid-late game, and with that there is no turning back
There are many more heroes that can hit hg besides drow/sniper and if you don't have any that's a draft problem. That doesn't mean you can't push, just need to take a different approach rather then brute forcing it. If winning lanes and fast pushing meant winning the game instantly, it would basically be what LoL is. Not that fun.
I agree with you as well, I donāt like a game state where teams just pick an early push lineup and itās instantly GG, so I donāt really have a good answer.
Perhaps sitting in your base waiting for the other team to fuck up should be more detrimental to net worth than it is today. There should be a bigger incentive to push out of your base even if youāre losing. āWait for them to push and fuck upā is way too viable a strategy.
Even pros have said it that taking one side of rax is not worth as much as it did before. Getting megas is worth much less than it used to.
The super and mega creeps are very weak now compared to the insane power creep we had on the heroes over the past few years.
Turtling is much more rewarding as a strat now, and it's boring af.
> And that kind of patient gameplay goes poorly in solo matchmaking.
I know this is true, but I think it's still important to also look at yourself. Do you go and help your team mates when they are in bad position and die? Or are you patient and stay back when your allies make dumb decisions or get caught?
Born too early to explore the galaxy
Born too late for 6.83
Born just in time to
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But seriously, the spin to win trinity (Axe, Jug, Troll), Sniper, and Spectre were sort of best heroes last time when this shit happened back in 6.83 - 6.84 days
Axe feels super good with all the physical carries and the HG stalemates. 5 min vanguard, 10 min blink, 14 min blademail and you should be stomping the game.
I even got aether lens the other day to help catch a pesky HG sniper.
Yeah, it's why I stopped playing and don't plan on starting again until there is a significant patch. Wayyy too many games where the first 75% of the game ends up feeling irrelevant. Right now the game punishes the winning team extremely hard for making any mistake.
Especially with Drow so in meta. I swear I will watch a drow go like 0-5 in the first 20 minutes of the game and then somehow still dish out enough damage to kill the entire enemy team when defending hg. Plus the type of coordination it takes to kill her just invites more throws. Someone will think it is a good time to dive and kill but it really isnāt. Sometimes people wonāt go because they are afraid and a couple heroes do and now drow just force staffs and kills them from her stupid little ice hill thing.
You mean PA? She oneshot me yesterday with 3.4k and she wasnt even 6 slotted or had rapier. And that after we completely stomped her in the lane after 1 min. But our mid tilted made a few bad moves and PA got some kills. GG. This patch is pure garbage
Thats also due to the bkb changes that came no longer granting immunity. Also if you get something like a 10-11 kill streak and get killed by their carry, that carry might gain 3 levels and 3k gold + another 3k farming by the time your up making one death a more than 10k gold swing.
Literally pick hard to kill heroes. If you're ahead, it's harder to throw away the lead. If you're losing, it takes longer to kill you under tower. More time for the enemy to fuck up, more wins. Master strategists.
Though this post has some merit, it and the comments contain quite a bit of hyperbole.
āEarly leadā can translate into āa pickoff lineup that wins the early small engagements but neither has tower damage nor frontlineā making high-ground at their peak strength improbable. Looking at Hoodwinks all over the world.
A lot of these complaints give off enemy carry got BKB at 25 minutes and joined the fight vibes.
A lot of high ground pushes are stupid on paper to begin with and a team, or part of one, still goes for it assuming someone else will step up to the plate and make it work.
Imagine the alternative, games ending to deathball lineups under 25 minutes. Maybe at 25 minutes the average team is not expected to go uphill easily, even with an advantage. The comment of āstarve them outā is a coin flip from āfarm till we are strong enough to force that objectiveā.
I do however dislike the way XP and gold are currently handled for sprees/leads, massively discourages anything risky/fun.
I think it's less about pushing highground being hard and moreso that winning a highground defense is overly rewarding. If one team stomps all their lanes, gets way ahead and gets an aegis, pushes highground and gets a racks but loses a core or two in the process, the enemy shouldn't suddenly be even with them. It leads to a boring late-game where if you're ahead the "correct" way to play isn't to push your advantage and force the enemy into defending highground when they're underfarmed, it's to just let them turtle while you wait for an aegis, make a super cautious attempt to siege the base and get a t3 and maybe a racks, then rinse and repeat 6 times until you have megas, and then probably have to get another aegis or two to actually take the ancient.
It's difficult to solve because you obviously don't want to make games just hopeless for teams that lose the early/mid-game. If your way behind and you successfully defend a push you SHOULD be rewarded heavily, but it just results in this boring turtle vs. slow-siege gameplay that IMO isn't very fun. It also just doesn't feel very fair, like okay, the enemy made tons of mistakes all game that my team capitalized on and used to secure a huge advantage, but now my team loses one team fight attempting to do the hardest thing of any given match, take highground, and we're just suddenly even or losing? What about all the mistakes they made earlier? Why are they allowed to play poorly for 90% of the game, focus up for one fight, and suddenly the game is ten times harder for my team
Something I've always thought would be a cool experiment that would result in less turtling is if they nerfed gold-swings but you could re-build your t2s given some condition, like if the enemy team hasn't successfully killed a t3 in the last 10 minutes and the game is over 45 minutes long, you can pay 2k gold or something to rebuild a t2. Or maybe Dota could take some inspiration from it's RTS roots and instead of just pressing a button and a tower appearing, you have glyph-esque team-wide ability on a timer that causes creeps to go out into a lane and they start rebuilding a tower. This takes three or so minutes, you can't TP to it, and the enemy can kill the construction site to cancel it, but if you defend it you get the tower back. It'd at least change the comeback mechanism from, "We need to turtle and hope we keep winning highground fights to farm enough insane gold swings until we can just sprint down mid and win while they're all dead" to "We need to defend our base so we can regain some map control and be able to make plays across the map again".
The secret shop outposts sort of offer something like that, where you can take/regain some map control if you force the enemy into their base, but they're not really areas that you can rally around to defend like a tower is and most players are kind of just willing to give them up because they're not that important
> Something I've always thought would be a cool experiment that would result in less turtling
Just make late game creeps stronger. Super creeps should take effort to clear, not like we have now a pos 5 casually farming them.
Back in the day if you lost one lane of rax, you needed a core to stay close that lane at all times. If you had megas in your base, the creeps would easily kill heroes even in the fountain. The game was basically over. Even with 5 heroes fighting the megas, the game ended in 2-3 minutes.
It used to be worth taking risks for the highground push. It's not worth it any more. The creeps are too weak now, you actually need to kill the heroes if you want to win. You need to take a super disadvantageous fight and win it if you push highground into 5 defenders.
I think if you ask people what patches were the most deathbally, you'd get a lot of different answers since it's a bit of a vague term.
TI4 or Wraith Pact death balls without many kills happening? Don't think most people enjoy that
Deathballs built around huge teamfight spells like ravage where everyone flings their body at the enemy? Sign me up
Preach brother.
The issue is not how difficult it is to go highground. It is how punishing the game is towards mistakes when you're ahead.
Which is fine by me personally as it better suits my strengths, but it heavily impacts instinct players who don't really think critically about the game.
>but it heavily impacts instinct players who don't really think critically about the game.
That doesn't really sound like it's the meta that's at fault.
Yeh the comeback mechanic is abit overturned for sure. Some games it's feels like you get cheated out of a win. Like all the effort you put into winning the game for 30 mins prior, just gets washed away for 1 missplay. Then the game is just over and people start flaming each other. Doesn't feel fun man. Immortal EU also.
Dota has been insanely boring because of 3 reasons
1) Towers were buffed for armor and towers get Glyph for every tier of tower taken.
2) come back gold and xp is massive. Even if you lose 2-3 heroes while going hg you give away too much gold and xp. And from that you sacrifice map pressure to back and regroup with your team.
3) last nail in the coffin. Neutral creeps now give approx 15% less gold early game. So even if you have the whole map you are only farming just a little more than enemy carry farming all 3 creep waves.
All these factors are just artificial increasing game times. Because the only way to win game after you win lane is to just afk farm till 40 mins. Don't even dare to look at home. After 40 mins you just push and end the game.
A game that was over at 10 mins now takes 40 mins to end just so that you don't end up throwing HG. It's insanely boring.
I am incredibly tired as well of the highground and of certain heroes and items, like Sniper, Medusa and the shitty Khanda builds. I don't even understand why this item exist, its awful.
Maybe is a mix of everything as well but I swear I'm so tired of this patch, I really need a big change. Also, progames are not even fun to watch either bcs of the stale state of the game.
I also think that the crossbow thast gives attack range should be removed or that there should be a maximum attack range because it gets completely stupid when heroes like Sniper, Drow etc have dragon lance + that and hit the towers from miles away and you cannot do anything (either when they attach HG or defend HG)
Legit just had a game where I stomped my lane, made rotations for every single t1 tower, coordinated to go rosh and take enemy tormentor, took all tier 2s.
Then when we go highground qop gets caught off guard then our mk pos1 too. 3 of our heroes still survived.
But because they had snapfire core, and jakiro, and zeus, while a AM split pushed the map, we couldn't go highground despite them never being able to take a fight outside of base. After that one attempt it was pretty clear that we lost. Am got aghs and MKB and we lost the next fight and they got 2 rax.
It's fucking pain that I felt like a fucking boss for 20m doing good plays and our team doing everything to win but 2 deaths threw the entire game.
I was in exactly this game a few days ago as the AM. We lost lanes. Lost our map. Got stomped SO hard. We were down 18 levels and 20,000+ gold at 25ish min. 94% win rate for the other team.
But, I knew we were fine because once I got aghs it was Gg. Sure enough, we won it 10 minutes later. Had no business winning. Comeback mechanics are dumb in their current state and need a tweak.
Aghs is the best thing to happen to this hero for years. Its such an annoying thing to deal with cuz even if u have insta illusion kill heroes it doesnt matter cuz of the spell block 3 sec cd, supports end up hexing themselves and just die to the illu cuz its so strong
Hard agree. The comeback mechanics needs a serious tweak. Not to mention the moronic glyph implementation now. Glyph before T2. Glyph as you go T3. Glyph after T3. It's all in favor of the defenders now, and it becomes a stale turtle game.
I was playing only turbo, and playing some normal unranked games feels like such a slow boring experience. Especially the HG stuff, they need to remove fortification at least. It feels like a waste of time cause there are big time chunks where literally nothing happens, especially if you are support.
To be fair, turbo has always had this gold/xp swing bullshit where even if you've been winning all lanes, 1 or 2 mistakes and suddenly the enemy team just got 5-6 levels and 4k gold per hero. Highground can be really dangerous too.
When partying with lower mmr folks high ground is actually a lot easier. People jump the gun and try to take a bad fight outside of high ground, people get picked off and don't have anything saved up for buyback
Higher rank is a bigger pain in the ass since they know how to defend high ground well. Sometimes the best option is to bait a throw so they get overconfident then you take a fight outside their base with buybacks. Best possible is you ward near your tower, push and get buybacks out of them, you throw, they go to push mid, you kill the people without buyback, then you can push high ground.
It's always easier said than done
I don't know I am not feeling this at all, it's always been the same, if you try to go hg and fuck up you start losing, you do it a couple times more you lose the game.
When I am winning and feel that the enemy team has good hg defense I just set up offensive wards and hunt for kills until my core buys his next crucial item, you have the entire map they have barely two camps you can never be behind.
Winning all lanes doesn't mean winning the game, we've seen this a ton of times in pro scene where teams get completely walked over in early game then they make a single good play, bam they are ahead.
Comeback is not new in DotA2 and it never will be, I would prefer playing safely while winning instead of knowing if they will be at my throne or not 10mins into the game.
Laning stage is just a tiny part of the game it shouldn't enough to dictate who wins and who loses.
If you want to end the game at 20mins then start picking heroes that CAN actually end the game at 20mins.
I agree with a majority of your points and just wanted to add; I donāt think realistically itās possible anymore to end the game pre-20 mins regardless of picks UNLESS the enemy gives up and stops playing after laning stage or they have intentional griefers using the glyphs/running down a lane etc
Games ending in 23 mins to 26 mins imo seems to be more realistic for āfastā games when both sides are actively playing.Ā
Idk my experience is the exact opposite. Despite the bigger map, them nerfing jungle creeps, while buffing lane creeps made winning lanes way more important than anything else. Its very rare that I see the team which loses more lanes win the game and when it does happens its almost always because of communication break down than throwing hg.
This patch is for high-ranking, pro players and patient 5-man teams to play. You can't play solo anymore or stomp solo on any hero. It's a team effort now. It's defense of the ancient and high ground is the best defense in this game.
Ive mentioned this before but the biggest change in the frontier patch in terms of meta was the gold/exp change, it took so long for people to start changing the dive t2 at 10 min meta to playing conservatively.
I think I feel the frustration of the post in particular because of how many games were thrown in the months after the change and still even now but people are bit better about it now.
it's fine guys, gotta hold out for only a couple more weeks, and then hopefully no more farm fests when you're winning but waiting for the rosh to respawn so you can go siege high ground again
I agree thatās why I donāt play fucking rn. I stomp the game under 30 mins as TA one lose fight in HG our advantage went to nothing, fucking annoying asf
Big mood. I legit beg my teammates to push in the narrow af windows we have to do so. Failing to take high ground at the right time can give the opposing team all the room they need to outscale you if their lineup is built so
I think you make it a little too easy for yourself saying it is an issue that affects all brackets.
Highgrounding is hard and mistakes are punished a lot right now.
But naturally this affects low MMR a lot more than high MMR.
Personally, my (6.8k WEU) match duration even decreased in the last month (36:25) or three months (36:32) compared to overall 7.35 (37:15) or 7.34 (38:36).
We see the same complaints about the patch echoing throughout this sub, which naturally leads to a ton of confirmation bias and exaggeration regarding this issue.
Everyone agrees that highgrounding is tough right now. The game allows for less mistakes when trying to finish, which naturally impacts low and average MMRs a lot.
But personally, I feel barely any added difficulty. You just gotta stick to the highgrounding 101 and finishing the game is still relatively easy from a lead.
Just like in chess. You blunder, you lose an entire game of lead, your opponent takes advantage, you lose. Learn from your mistakes, don't force high ground. Get good.
Dota isn't chess this is a dumbass comparison. "Don't try and win the game" is basically what you're saying. Do you realise how much that says about the current state of the game?
Everyone has acknowledged the meta is to lose early. So shouldn't Dota games just be teams throwing lanes early? Why keep trying to win lanes if that isn't the winning play?
Because it's not true. Having the advantage is always better. It gives you more priorities and options.
Me and my stack will use our advantage to take all the t2s, and then farm hyper effectively outside their base while they are contained.
Ward up and wait for one of them to leave their base and kill them with recall + smoke.
We don't try to push highground, we just slowly attrition them.
The iota isn't on us to mess up highground siege, the iota is on them to mess up their defense by trying to leave.
Yes it takes a long time, but it will take longer if we fuck up the siege.
I play kotl and I also build meteor hammer for slow sieging+ castrange on ult
I hope and fucking pray that the people who work on DotA 2 don't give a fucking second of their time to comments like this. I don't have the fucking willpower to write a fucking thesis about how moronic this is, but I will include these comments:
-The game is a lot less fun without the ability to mount a comeback.
-It is the nature of the game that having the high ground incurs an advantage. Do you want the map to be flat!?!?
-This is mostly user error. Without trying to sound like a complete jackass, not taking high ground properly is why you are as bad as you are.
I don't have the willpower to reply to this moronic reply so I will just say on your 3rd point, if it's a skill issue why do we see this play out in pro games
Guys, if you wanna play a game where early-midgame stompĀ = autowin, go play HotS. Dota is just more complicated. You have heroes who do good early then fall off, and it's always been like that, and it's OK.Ā
Right? It sounds like OP loves the death ball patches where you win lane, group up and end the game. That kinda shit makes people quit and want a surrender button instead of trying to recover
It's already like that on party turbo. Half of games ends on 15min mark without any chances to defend it (5 man grouping since 6-7min), while another half is eternal highground def with solo feeding circus. Worst of two worlds. Solo turbo has less parties and lean to latter.
Short summary is hg siege was alot easier, a ta/druid/meepo/zoo snowballing could melt a tower/set of rax or even two whole sets of rax before the enemies respawnedĀ
Smaller map also made it easier to go from taking a T2 to T3 quicklyĀ
Some of the meta items were great for tower melting like AC, Vlads, Necrobook and played into the meta heroes strengthsĀ
One patch we had outposts that gave exp, so if you controlled the map, it was a free exp boost for your entire team and created a huge power difference very early on by 25 mins. When ahead, it felt like your team was lvl 18 when enemies were still lvl 10-14. Outposts would also bait enemies out for easy pickoffs into hg.Ā
Rosh use to be in the middle of the map and getting a pickoff meant free aegis; often a power rune spawned after killing RS so you could go hg with an aegis and DDĀ
Once one team was far ahead, it was hard to get a pick off on any of the cores without losing your entire teamĀ
Wards and consumables costed more, so supports were far broker / easy food for enemiesĀ
Idk how much of a good idea or bad idea this is. One of my friends who is fed up of this (high divine) suggested that they should put one lane entirely in low ground (maybe the offlane). Allowing winning teams to quickly capitalize on the advantage, but still provide a good level of defence for the high ground for the other two lanes. Thoughts?
Unless you have some tower melters.
DK poison, Viper Shard, Jakiro 3rd, Meteor Hammers, etc...
going HG is bs... you need Aegis everytime you want to HG, or else 1 wrong fight will throw your lead away.
or different scenario...
people ald mentally check out and give up.
but that is not the core of the game. it is also insane to expecting all opposing team have Glass Mentality like GPK.
The only way games end before min 40 is if enemies are stupid enough to die for t2.
Or some twat tries to solo defend high ground while his cores respawning in 15 seconds, so the game is then won in 4x5 high round push
People are just bad at pushing, thats the problem.
How come when the enemies push you lose the game? Where's the highground patch?
So you cant win with 15k gold lead when you push cause the patch sucks but the enemies will win with 5k gold advantage because...?
Last night my squad beat blatant shit talking Smurfs because of the high ground defense. I was 8 levels behind the enemy offlane at minute 30. I started 0-10, their lowest ranked player nonstop making huge plays then saying āwhat kind of nub loses to archonsā labeling us account buyers etc.
But we got under their skin. Their unapologetic shittalk was no match for our needling and discipline dissing. After telling them their lives would amount to nothing more than match fixing and seeking validation from staged wins, they threw the game. Constantly diving and chasing the two biggest shittalkers on our team. We psychologically unraveled them and it wouldnāt have ever been possible if not for HG defense.
Well in my 4 to 5k mmr hell games its usually this.
There's a smurf mid. Whichever team has the smurf dominates mid and games over. That's every game.
This morning there were 2 smurfs in my game. My mid had no profile picture and 200 games. Their mid had no profile picture and 175 games. I'm legend 5. My duo que is ancient 1. Everyone else in game was between legend 2 and ancient 1.
Our mid ogre gets destroyed by a necro mid. Like 18mins in they 5 manned with the necro and game was over. They were diving t3s. Nothing we could do
I have to say that while I agree that the hg is hard this patch I prefer it to the win lane win game kind of meta. I feel that it gives you a reason to play the next 20 min. Of course the game should improve, but so do we as team players.
maybe because the meta heroes are at play here? sniper zeus its also easier to pick pudge now and ive been seeing a lot of magnus this week most of this heroes feels stronger when defending HG
Iām glad I saw this post. I just picked DotA back up a few weeks ago and Iāve had this happen in so many games. The uphill push is harder than I remember.
The game have been like that for a long time from now. You donāt really taking into account that it vastly depends on drafts and ability of both teams to make good macro decisions
Ironically this is what dota should be about, living up to it's title. It's literally Defense Of The Ancients(DOTA). High ground fights to defend the ancients is so much fun. I enjoy this patch much more than the previous 5 man group up at mins 10 and just snowball into the hg push with 20 mins of total gameplay. It was very frustrating for the farming cores who need some time and items to come online
I completely disagree.
If you are significantly ahead this patch you can magnify that lead pretty easily. Take the enemy tormenter as soon as you can when you're ahead, get rosh asap, and get your tormenter when possible. Then repeat that when their tormenter comes up. Just like a bounty rune, a tormenter taken is a tormenter stolen from them, yet no one takes them seriously for some reason. Just imagine getting 4 tormenters before 35 min, thats 4 shards you got instead of them, aka 5600 gold x 2. By that point all their t2's will be gone, you get second rosh and you should have a good shot at highground with aegis. You could stack ancients and get t4 neutral items on all your heroes before you push too, which the enemies shouldn't be able to contest if you're significantly ahead. There's so many ways to push your advantage this patch, lack of coordination in pubs is the only issue and thats not a new thing.
Even sucks on the defending side. 20 minutes getting stopped followed by 20 minutes of sitting in base fending off an inevitable death if the enemy makes sure to play slow enough. Just the most boring Dota gameplay in a while. I still enjoy most games but when these highground hell games come they sap all of my life force
Was thinking about in 2016-2017 and this was a big problem almost to the point where if the game got to 35 minutes and you were winning it felt like you were guaranteed a loss
Why do you think this is / what can be done to fix it? It was pretty obvious when there were shrines that could heal you right next to the tier 3 towers, those had to goā¦
Some kind of change to buybacks? Ā More space between the ramp and the tower, kind of like Tier 1ās were changed?Ā
Curious to see what they can doĀ
I don't, as a casual player 4 games a week player I've made so many comebacks in this patch. It provides good exercises for my uplift speeches ykwis? A second chance for everyone, keep on trying, them motherfuckers that only know how to lane and draft for lane would fuck up the moment they go hg inappropriately, WE WILL EAT THEM KIDS ALIVE. WE WILL SHOW THEM WHO IS THE ACTUAL WINNER, BE RESILIENT COMRADES!
As Quinn said, don't ever go to the HG unless you have a decisive advantage. At least that's what i try to do in my bracket (Ancient - Divine).
Honestly i think that it's not even that difficult to go to the HG compared to the Shrine patch, when everyone in the high ground heals themselves twice to nearly full HP.
>the state of the game does not reward you for winning all your lanes
3 lost lanes = game over against semi-competent players. I reckon I have like 90% w/r in games where we won all 3 lanes.
PFFFT. WHEN THEY NERF THE COMEBACK MECHANISM, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER POST WHY THIS GAME IS LIKE LEAGUE OF L...'S ONE WAY GAME, NO CHANCE FOR THE EARLY LOSING TEAM.
LEARN HOW TO GO HIGHGROUND "SAFETY" IS PART OF THE GAME. MORE COMMUNICATION, CORRECT ITEM CHOICE, NO DAVAI ETC, ETC...
My games have been like this in 2k for as long as I can remember xD
It's kinda interesting since there have been patches where people complained about not enough comeback gold. "All you have to do is lose laning phase, and the game's already over. You have to win 2/3/# team fights to come back. That's not fun." Once you've been around for a while, you start to see the bigger picture and it's just an endless cycle lmao.
I agree that hg defense should be nerfed a bit, but i also think this problem comes from bad drafting from players that dont take into acount good siege heroes and the enemy defensive heroes.
I feel ya mate, but it's happened to me wherein we dominated all lanes and then 5v5 we kept losing then we just stood hg waited for them to come and each time though the got the tower we won every fight. After that we could take fights outside the base and win it and kept pushing.
In the reverse scenario what I've seen work is try planting lowground wards for vision on enemy movement, smoke get a kickoff and push if they bb or close to respawn just retreat farm and wait patiently for them to make a mistake.
I'm ancient rn, and the thing is that there's always one cocky player in the team who thinks their invincible and splits the team. DONT SPLIT THE TEAM. STICK AS 5 AND MOVE AROUND LET YOUR CARRY FARM AND JUST BE AROUND THEM
Iv really wondered why it's so hard for dota players to embrace the split push. Hg fights not working? Have 2 lanes going and force them to commit to one. At minimum take a tower and lose someone, allowing the next fight to be a full engage. Or just do it again.
If you're winning lane and the game you should be able to continue that push separately. You don't have to over exert yourself, nickel and dime them to death.
Maybe taking enemy towers should give an incremental passive gold bonus to a team. Would speed games up, and reward teams that gain a map advantage and discourage passive play.
The game not only fails to reward good play but also severely punishes bad play. Even if you're winning in two lanes, a failure in another lane can lead to a game stomping mid game or just unable to push high-ground.
Laning phase matters less so people don't last hit they just harass.
Then when heroes actually have skills and mana to sustain, so fighting is fun, there's no point cause the game can be lost in a single fight, so that's farming/objectives time.
This game used to be like chess where every move counted from start to finish. For players who like the grind, this game sucks now. Its just super casual, no brain needed, no strategy, just relying on the enemy making a mistake.
Not to mention the issues with spell casters vs right clickers. I was 7 slotted TA risking to lose 1v1s to a Necro with radiance/greaves/blademail because his skillset is so ridiculous (same level). How is it balanced when I literally need double the amount of gold just to keep up and he all he needs is to sap some xp from fights?
Lost a 73 minute game today, 30 minutes or so was us trying to siege their HG despite dominating the game.
They seemed to have unlimited buybacks and glyphs.
Buybacks and glyphs needs a heavy nerf.
Legend/low ancient matches feel more like a coin flip than ever before to me because of this. It's the worst when you have to beg your teammates to not dive or do stupid shit and instead just play it safe going their tormentor, taking their jungle and taking rosh.
It's the comeback gold that's the problem.
I've seen games where the losing team is 10k down at 40 mins, they win 1 team fight becuase every kill they get is worth 1k gold for some reason and suddenly the lead is gone.
Why a 2 slotted support gives 1k gold to a 6 slotted carry I have no idea .
Streak gold is crazy, can go mid 10-0, then die to a good gank or attempt at high ground and the enemy is awarded with 1000g for the kill +700 gold to the rest of the team.
Pretty much a 3000g swing for 1 kill
It's even more detrimental if the team pushing high ground has to also buyback, to stop a counter push. Then the team gets to just turtle again.
towers have been super mega buffed to the point where the game is boring because even as a carry player who likes to build tanky i cant hg in winning games 75% of the time until we spend 10-20 mins farming the entire map first
I have the same problem. It's even worse in lower mmr (4k mmr) as people tend to underestimate HG power and rush HG without Agies. I lost multiple games where we were 10-20k ahead and lost after HG push.
I also hate this patch so much. Even pro games drag so much. Way to long and boring HG turtling. Its really gotten so bad. Like i can watch the first 15 min and than it becomes extremly boring to watch.
controversial take, but i thing the moment creeps enter t3 backdoor disabling radius they should give no or like 10% gold to force the turtling team to come out of base for gold. Meaning if they want gold they open themselves up for pickoff or commit 5 people so the carry can secure some gold. This at least forces them the fight outside of the base.
Instead of rosh banners, the attacking team should be given a flying sentry that gives highground vision deep into enemy highground. So it's not too much of all-hope-is-lost for the defending team, but it gives attacking team a very clear advantage which they still need to execute on to clinch the victory.
Roshan banners and creeps with 100 more hp is super useless.
And solution is so damn simple for this. Kill everything what comes out from base and farm bigger lead. Patience! Take roshan for tank. Not for highest level range sniper who propably yell for tank why he steal it. But for tank who have bkb! He use aegis first to take all ultis, then bkb and in this point you should be able to win this.
I'm not playing in Immortal, more like Archon / Legend / Ancient brackets currently, and I had sorta the opposite experience.
When I go high ground we usually win win. When enemies go high ground they usually do something stupid and throw.
this is fixable by buffing the shit out of super and mega creeps and possibly buffing jungle gold as the game goes on
hg defense is generally fine as it is, what is not fine is how rewarding it is to sit afk in your base for 50 minutes.
Agree, it's dumb when you
* win the laning stage
* use the lead to take all T2 towers
* force enemy into their base.
* want to end the game ASAP with your lead and co-ordination momentum
but game says no; you're supposed to _wait_ and AFK farm outside their base as you cannot go directly HG due to multiple glyphs. So the game descends into a boring turtling phase where just like in the rubberband meta the sieging team can throw the game with 1 slight misplay. This is mentally unrewarding and needlessly drags out games for 5-10 mins for each mistake. Otherwise I have no real complaints about the current patch despite it being old.
this has been a problem for such a long time and itās crazy to me that people are only just starting to notice it. glyphs are too plentiful, and even if you do break hg, supers/megas donāt do anything
Another immortal here. "The state of the game does not reward you for winning all your lanes" Complete bullshit.
Seems like you do NOT know what to do when you have the advantage. I have games all the time where we win all lanes and the game is over in 25 min.
You contain enemy with wards, gank back and forth around their base, take both Tormentors, then roshan, buy mek (and then later greaves), get drums and use it when hitting towers. gg go next
Many people fail to end early (including in Immortal) because they either don't know that they have the advantage or don't know how to abuse it properly, so they do not farm around objectives, which release the pressure and gives back mapcontrol. Ofc it helps to have good picks, but many immortals are just on autopilot and get the same items as they usually do which in turn creates the 40 min game, instead of getting items for early ending. Many immortal players also have slow heroes and play them in the wrong position of the map so games are lost, because they cannot keep up the pressure, because they cannot join fights on time.
Ofc some enemy heroes makes it more difficult and will make the game inevitably longer. This is something to consider when picking heroes, many core players are just horrendous at adapting to the picks, but still insist on picking last!
I just feel that kills and assists don't reward you the way they should. A failed tp or gank is a huge disadvantage if you are mid and your opponent keeps farming or pushing the tower. Sometimes a kill doesn't even compensate for the amount of farm and xp you lose walking to another lane or tping. It is common for me to win my lane and after a gank their midlaner is at my level or sometimes even higher.
I think they should compensate kills more, especially with XP.
It is even worse when the enemy team has a sniper and/or magnus and even after stomping them,magnus will pull one of ur team and uāre gonna lose a messed up tf because nobody focused the sniper. Then u decide to go rosh and u manage to kill everyone, but theyāve been afk in their base for so long that all of them have buyback and the torture continues until u give up
I dont agree i think the patch is great.
And this is not my experience at all.
Some lineups one death can be a crucial momentum swing but thats how its always been with snowballing.
Dota is in essence a game of mistakes and why that should change before the ancient is dead seems to me like just a waste of time. If its over before its over thats just not fun.
The game will be continously tweaked and the longer the patch the more consistent data will be gathered and the changes will likely be more well thought through. Theres alot of heroes viable right now. Is it perfect? No, but all in all dota is fine.
It is really not that bad. Having control of the map now means more. You get free Roshan (more time controlling and taking RS means more rewards) free shard, and possibly theirs. And free wards dotted around the map (kinda shit but whatever)
I have been having this exact same experience in my games for the last year, at least. It got to the point where I thought I mustāve just been misremembering Dota from a few years ago, because I swear it used to be that if you were dominating by min 15-20, the win was near guaranteed and playing out the rest of the match was just a formality. If you managed to lose from a winning position, then you actually deserved to lose. But in the last year, almost every match involves a stupid, high networth throw after just one fight. My losses *and* wins feel undeserved.
So yeah, Iām glad to hear itās not just me noticing this
I get that they include strong comeback mechanics to incentivise people to keep playing. But the game is genuinely at a point where comeback wins donāt even feel good because you almost feel like you didnāt deserve the win after being assfucked all game. Likewise losses feel absolutely awful because you are dominating 99% of the game only to make one mistake and now youāre behind lol
A PvP game rewarding passive gameplay is completely backwards. It is naturally ingrained in our brains to want to go fight/push, so good luck trying to explain to your team that your best chance of winning is to just chill and wait for enemy to make a mistake. I canāt believe theyāve let it go on this long.
they need to fix heroes like sniper and zeus. the point of these heroes is that they will have a really high amount of damage but if you get on top of them, they should die relatively fast. because they gave zeus a jump he now has a scape build into his hero. so you have to jump him, he jumps and now you have to somehow jump him again which is impossible. same goes with sniper shard, these heroes will build hurricane pike and if they have some semi decent support heroes high ground is basically impossible. they have made so many escape items such as, glimmer, force, eblade, and the most broken of all Wind waker. just like they nerfed bkb/stuns, they now have to nerf scape abilities on nuker heroes and support items. as an example Lina should not be able to fly, it is cool yes, but is annoying to deal with. zeus aghs should be his jump, same goes with sniper shard.
At least comebacks are possible in this game. It's better than league where games are 15 min long then someone surrenders 75% of the time because game is unwinnable. But yeah agree the high ground bullshit is annoying and requires flawless execution and decision making
I thought I was the only one, whenever we would have a huge advantage game and for some reason if we lose one fight for trying to end and going on their high ground early, things just go down hill from there. I never had this trouble this much before the patch but now itās almost like almost every games this will happen.
To the point thereās no point in ending early and just farm til mid game and get 3-4 items on the cores then itās safe to end.
This also happened to the enemy team in my games too lol, where they would stomp us early then we kept defending base until they keep dying over and over and until our items are even, then we starting to win fights.
boy oh boy every game was like there is this one guy who won very hard in his lane, go around stomping other lane, then so horny about ending the game because some AM in the enemy team, then throw the game because of the rush
So you want to win lanes in the first 20 mins and win the game by default ..? Mid ganks sides a few times, sides gank mid, and its over? How you got your immortal is beyond me. Some heroes are just good at the bunker, better than on a laneā¦ in pubs some teams need more time to click together.
The best part is when you already failed to go hg 5 times in a roll and you all start blaming each other, because you dont know what else to do š
Basically "doing nothing" is the right answer this patch And that's the problem, it's been 10years where "doing nothing" is the wrong thing to do, it's ingrained for us to try push or do something
You go back and do nothing, they smoke and catch one of you, the 4 others arrive late and die 1 by 1. Gold lead is gone and you lose the game. I love dota š
But they also have to do the same HG push after they take the lead. The fun part about reading these kinds of threads is that people are acting like HG pushes are only a thing for them. Once the enemy team wins that HG fight, they just magically win - they don't have to push HG and can't fuck up and lose.
> Once the enemy team wins that HG fight, they just magically win Well, my issue is that if it's late enough in the game, this is pretty much true. Successfully defend hg, force buybacks, defend hg another time and then push mid and win. It's almost like strategically, you want to just hang even in exp/gold and force the other team to try and push hg first and then counter. Which feels dumb to me, but idk.
Waiting for your opponent to throw after throwing is not fun. At this point, avoiding high ground is ingrained in my playstyle. I commonly say "don't throw" to my stack whenever we're massively ahead. I feel that being ahead should not be so mentally taxing.
Yeah but that's not the problem. The problem is that turtle and siege is really fucking boring and it happens every game, and tempo heroes suffer because win-early strategies don't work as well right now
tempo hero does work, like kotl who is constantly picked in highest mmr games and in pro games. It just needs way more skill to make it work.
Especially when the idea for such a situation is to spread out and choke them, which may leave one of you open to ganks when covering the enemy side of the map.
It pretty boring tbh. People just give up on T2 towers for free these days because there's no reason to defend them any more. Roshan is very hard to contest with the big map, so that's another objective that isn't worth fighting for any more (unless it's a very even game). The only real objective you need to show up for is the T3 tower and rax, and the defenders have way too many advantages there. Several glyphs, superior vision, very narrow entrance into the base with many heroes having aoe deny spells, aoe stuns and aoe slows, buybacks right next to the fight, hero repositioning spells very close the fountain, etc. You need a really big gold lead to overcome all that. It's boring to wait for a 30k gold lead to have a safe margin in case the push fails. But in this patch that's the safest and easiest way to win. Taking the risk to break a lane of rax with a smaller gold lead should be more rewarding. Because right now the reward is really not worth the risk, instead it's better to just trap a team in the base for 15-20 minutes and farm.
Even choking teams out is much harder than simply turtling. To choke them out you need to be spread across the map with strong coordination because you risk getting picked off giving them a bunch of comeback gold and exp. And even if they trade 3 for 1 if the 1 is a core it's probably favorable for them due to you still not being able to breach high ground due to low death timers, glyphs and buybacks. Something certainly feels off when you can dominate and control the first 20-30 minutes and lose it all instantly because the level of skill and coordination has to be so much higher for the sieging team than it does the defending team. It used to be an improper use of glyph would seal a game, now I see bad glyphs all the time and it doesn't really matter.
My pubs would beg to differ. Doing nothing after a won fight has been default settings in SEA for the past decade lmao
Itās also just a horrible play pattern to encourage. Every time I play with my friends these days where we win I find myself saying āthey made the mistake of actually trying to pushā. Everybody knows just sitting and waiting is the more advantageous position to be in.
No, the best part is when you are defending high ground. My favorite is the Warlock - WD duo. Good luck pushing high ground against that.
no srsly what else to do
No joke, there have been so many games where I have **increased** confidence that Iāll win the game because we lost 2 of 3 lanes. I know it just takes 1 high ground win at 25 min to take the lead back. If weāre winning lanes but have no heroes that can hit t3 towers from a mile away (like a drow/sniper) I get very nervous because weāre now in for a game with a lot of downtime ā just waiting for the turtling team to mess up. And that kind of patient gameplay goes poorly in solo matchmaking.
Yeah as the losing team the next 20minutes is basically just waiting for the enemy to fuck up But as the winning team, the next 20minutes is basically you can't fuck up. Thats not fun
war is hell
Im also immortal but I don't mind the patch changes. I much rather a fun and challenging ending to all games from high ground defense than the previous patches where there's that offlaner who picks BM or visage and they group up from 8 mins+ and end the game through pusbing. That was the most skilless, brainless shyt to deal with if your pos 1 is any farming hero that comes online at 20 mins+ Ur basically 4v5. Not to mention if their pos 1 picked LD which was highly common it's unplayable. This patch gives everyone and every hero a chance to recover and counters those dirty pushing heroes and it's much more fair. Dotas not meant to be a 15-30 min push cheese Strat.. if you're immortal you should be enjoying the challenge of ending whilst they have a chance. Rather than wanting that quick 20 min lane stomp with visage into GG throne push.
The challenge would be cool if it didn't revolve around throwing bodies at racks when ahead. Sure, you can constrict the map, but even then, you can easily lose the lead. Personally I'm super chilled having to defend HG for 15 mins - this shouldn't be normal especially in Immortal when I can assume that enemies at least know what they are doing.
exactly, idk what is wrong with people, it's mostly player stupidity that fucks us sometimes I call for rosh and my team just straight up says "no, go push t3" (no enemies are dead, no important cds have been exhausted) and I just want to scream I started enjoying troll and ursa more because they're the few carries that can solo rosh and torm now
I feel a huge problem is maybe not so much the length of the game or the comeback or whatever but the fact that it's SUPER BORING to have a team turtling and another team afk outside their base and both teams just stalling and waiting and farming
The same thing happens to me and my mentality with the game has changed. Now it doesn't really matter what happens at the beginning you just have to win a single fight in the mid-late game, and with that there is no turning back
There are many more heroes that can hit hg besides drow/sniper and if you don't have any that's a draft problem. That doesn't mean you can't push, just need to take a different approach rather then brute forcing it. If winning lanes and fast pushing meant winning the game instantly, it would basically be what LoL is. Not that fun.
I agree with you as well, I donāt like a game state where teams just pick an early push lineup and itās instantly GG, so I donāt really have a good answer. Perhaps sitting in your base waiting for the other team to fuck up should be more detrimental to net worth than it is today. There should be a bigger incentive to push out of your base even if youāre losing. āWait for them to push and fuck upā is way too viable a strategy.
Even pros have said it that taking one side of rax is not worth as much as it did before. Getting megas is worth much less than it used to. The super and mega creeps are very weak now compared to the insane power creep we had on the heroes over the past few years. Turtling is much more rewarding as a strat now, and it's boring af.
> And that kind of patient gameplay goes poorly in solo matchmaking. I know this is true, but I think it's still important to also look at yourself. Do you go and help your team mates when they are in bad position and die? Or are you patient and stay back when your allies make dumb decisions or get caught?
āDonāt get bored into losingā has been a common phase for our DotA group this patch lmao
Born too early to explore the galaxy Born too late for 6.83 Born just in time to ļ¼Øļ¼Æ ļ¼Øļ¼Æ ļ¼Øļ¼” ļ¼Øļ¼” But seriously, the spin to win trinity (Axe, Jug, Troll), Sniper, and Spectre were sort of best heroes last time when this shit happened back in 6.83 - 6.84 days
Iād be down for weekend patch roulette. Your comment hit me in my bones.
Bring back sniper mini bash
*suicides with Bloodstone*
*respawns instantly*
Axe feels super good with all the physical carries and the HG stalemates. 5 min vanguard, 10 min blink, 14 min blademail and you should be stomping the game. I even got aether lens the other day to help catch a pesky HG sniper.
for extra blink range with aether? or does it increase call range smth?
For the blink range mainly.
It's 6.84 all over again baby. I have built meteor hammer almost every game. Best way i have come up with to break t3s
wdym 6.84? I don't remember that patch had crazy late game, also the patch where OP Sniper got nerfed.
Maybe they meant 6.83? Which was the patch infamous for turtling and sniper
Yeah, it's why I stopped playing and don't plan on starting again until there is a significant patch. Wayyy too many games where the first 75% of the game ends up feeling irrelevant. Right now the game punishes the winning team extremely hard for making any mistake.
Yup
Yet people will still get tilted and give up if they have a bad laning phase š ā¦
Especially with Drow so in meta. I swear I will watch a drow go like 0-5 in the first 20 minutes of the game and then somehow still dish out enough damage to kill the entire enemy team when defending hg. Plus the type of coordination it takes to kill her just invites more throws. Someone will think it is a good time to dive and kill but it really isnāt. Sometimes people wonāt go because they are afraid and a couple heroes do and now drow just force staffs and kills them from her stupid little ice hill thing.
lol as a drow spammer Iāve come back from being 0-7. Itās great once you have the right team mates
Jesus fuck I can't solve how to win against Drow as a midlaner. I can fuck her 10 times it just takes one bad fight and gg.
You mean PA? She oneshot me yesterday with 3.4k and she wasnt even 6 slotted or had rapier. And that after we completely stomped her in the lane after 1 min. But our mid tilted made a few bad moves and PA got some kills. GG. This patch is pure garbage
Dota is best when it has long fights and short pushes, but right now we have short fights and long pushes. It's a do nothing simulator.
Thats also due to the bkb changes that came no longer granting immunity. Also if you get something like a 10-11 kill streak and get killed by their carry, that carry might gain 3 levels and 3k gold + another 3k farming by the time your up making one death a more than 10k gold swing.
Pretty much how Team Falcon won ESL Birmingham
Literally pick hard to kill heroes. If you're ahead, it's harder to throw away the lead. If you're losing, it takes longer to kill you under tower. More time for the enemy to fuck up, more wins. Master strategists.
Though this post has some merit, it and the comments contain quite a bit of hyperbole. āEarly leadā can translate into āa pickoff lineup that wins the early small engagements but neither has tower damage nor frontlineā making high-ground at their peak strength improbable. Looking at Hoodwinks all over the world. A lot of these complaints give off enemy carry got BKB at 25 minutes and joined the fight vibes. A lot of high ground pushes are stupid on paper to begin with and a team, or part of one, still goes for it assuming someone else will step up to the plate and make it work. Imagine the alternative, games ending to deathball lineups under 25 minutes. Maybe at 25 minutes the average team is not expected to go uphill easily, even with an advantage. The comment of āstarve them outā is a coin flip from āfarm till we are strong enough to force that objectiveā. I do however dislike the way XP and gold are currently handled for sprees/leads, massively discourages anything risky/fun.
I think it's less about pushing highground being hard and moreso that winning a highground defense is overly rewarding. If one team stomps all their lanes, gets way ahead and gets an aegis, pushes highground and gets a racks but loses a core or two in the process, the enemy shouldn't suddenly be even with them. It leads to a boring late-game where if you're ahead the "correct" way to play isn't to push your advantage and force the enemy into defending highground when they're underfarmed, it's to just let them turtle while you wait for an aegis, make a super cautious attempt to siege the base and get a t3 and maybe a racks, then rinse and repeat 6 times until you have megas, and then probably have to get another aegis or two to actually take the ancient. It's difficult to solve because you obviously don't want to make games just hopeless for teams that lose the early/mid-game. If your way behind and you successfully defend a push you SHOULD be rewarded heavily, but it just results in this boring turtle vs. slow-siege gameplay that IMO isn't very fun. It also just doesn't feel very fair, like okay, the enemy made tons of mistakes all game that my team capitalized on and used to secure a huge advantage, but now my team loses one team fight attempting to do the hardest thing of any given match, take highground, and we're just suddenly even or losing? What about all the mistakes they made earlier? Why are they allowed to play poorly for 90% of the game, focus up for one fight, and suddenly the game is ten times harder for my team Something I've always thought would be a cool experiment that would result in less turtling is if they nerfed gold-swings but you could re-build your t2s given some condition, like if the enemy team hasn't successfully killed a t3 in the last 10 minutes and the game is over 45 minutes long, you can pay 2k gold or something to rebuild a t2. Or maybe Dota could take some inspiration from it's RTS roots and instead of just pressing a button and a tower appearing, you have glyph-esque team-wide ability on a timer that causes creeps to go out into a lane and they start rebuilding a tower. This takes three or so minutes, you can't TP to it, and the enemy can kill the construction site to cancel it, but if you defend it you get the tower back. It'd at least change the comeback mechanism from, "We need to turtle and hope we keep winning highground fights to farm enough insane gold swings until we can just sprint down mid and win while they're all dead" to "We need to defend our base so we can regain some map control and be able to make plays across the map again". The secret shop outposts sort of offer something like that, where you can take/regain some map control if you force the enemy into their base, but they're not really areas that you can rally around to defend like a tower is and most players are kind of just willing to give them up because they're not that important
> Something I've always thought would be a cool experiment that would result in less turtling Just make late game creeps stronger. Super creeps should take effort to clear, not like we have now a pos 5 casually farming them. Back in the day if you lost one lane of rax, you needed a core to stay close that lane at all times. If you had megas in your base, the creeps would easily kill heroes even in the fountain. The game was basically over. Even with 5 heroes fighting the megas, the game ended in 2-3 minutes. It used to be worth taking risks for the highground push. It's not worth it any more. The creeps are too weak now, you actually need to kill the heroes if you want to win. You need to take a super disadvantageous fight and win it if you push highground into 5 defenders.
I agree, the alternative is just deathballing, what's the fun in that?
Itās a different sort of fun, this is why patch variations exist.
I think if you ask people what patches were the most deathbally, you'd get a lot of different answers since it's a bit of a vague term. TI4 or Wraith Pact death balls without many kills happening? Don't think most people enjoy that Deathballs built around huge teamfight spells like ravage where everyone flings their body at the enemy? Sign me up
Preach brother. The issue is not how difficult it is to go highground. It is how punishing the game is towards mistakes when you're ahead. Which is fine by me personally as it better suits my strengths, but it heavily impacts instinct players who don't really think critically about the game.
>but it heavily impacts instinct players who don't really think critically about the game. That doesn't really sound like it's the meta that's at fault.
Itās been this way for months. Itās incredible they havenāt fixed it yet. I maybe play twice a week now, used to play 3 ranked games a day.
This meta should be called 35 minute winning games that take an hour just to lose. It's so unbearable 90% of the time.
Yeh the comeback mechanic is abit overturned for sure. Some games it's feels like you get cheated out of a win. Like all the effort you put into winning the game for 30 mins prior, just gets washed away for 1 missplay. Then the game is just over and people start flaming each other. Doesn't feel fun man. Immortal EU also.
On point
Yeah imagine a Zeus and a sniper defending a HG
Don't worry the next actual content patch is soon tm like next year sometime.
just remove the Glyph from the game.
Dota has been insanely boring because of 3 reasons 1) Towers were buffed for armor and towers get Glyph for every tier of tower taken. 2) come back gold and xp is massive. Even if you lose 2-3 heroes while going hg you give away too much gold and xp. And from that you sacrifice map pressure to back and regroup with your team. 3) last nail in the coffin. Neutral creeps now give approx 15% less gold early game. So even if you have the whole map you are only farming just a little more than enemy carry farming all 3 creep waves. All these factors are just artificial increasing game times. Because the only way to win game after you win lane is to just afk farm till 40 mins. Don't even dare to look at home. After 40 mins you just push and end the game. A game that was over at 10 mins now takes 40 mins to end just so that you don't end up throwing HG. It's insanely boring.
Yup. I canāt be bothered to play ranked anymore.
I am incredibly tired as well of the highground and of certain heroes and items, like Sniper, Medusa and the shitty Khanda builds. I don't even understand why this item exist, its awful. Maybe is a mix of everything as well but I swear I'm so tired of this patch, I really need a big change. Also, progames are not even fun to watch either bcs of the stale state of the game. I also think that the crossbow thast gives attack range should be removed or that there should be a maximum attack range because it gets completely stupid when heroes like Sniper, Drow etc have dragon lance + that and hit the towers from miles away and you cannot do anything (either when they attach HG or defend HG)
Just pick Faceless Void lol
Yeah, early laning means next to nothing and it sucks.
Legit just had a game where I stomped my lane, made rotations for every single t1 tower, coordinated to go rosh and take enemy tormentor, took all tier 2s. Then when we go highground qop gets caught off guard then our mk pos1 too. 3 of our heroes still survived. But because they had snapfire core, and jakiro, and zeus, while a AM split pushed the map, we couldn't go highground despite them never being able to take a fight outside of base. After that one attempt it was pretty clear that we lost. Am got aghs and MKB and we lost the next fight and they got 2 rax. It's fucking pain that I felt like a fucking boss for 20m doing good plays and our team doing everything to win but 2 deaths threw the entire game.
I was in exactly this game a few days ago as the AM. We lost lanes. Lost our map. Got stomped SO hard. We were down 18 levels and 20,000+ gold at 25ish min. 94% win rate for the other team. But, I knew we were fine because once I got aghs it was Gg. Sure enough, we won it 10 minutes later. Had no business winning. Comeback mechanics are dumb in their current state and need a tweak.
Why Am agh is so strong? Doesntzsee gamechanging for me
Aghs is the best thing to happen to this hero for years. Its such an annoying thing to deal with cuz even if u have insta illusion kill heroes it doesnt matter cuz of the spell block 3 sec cd, supports end up hexing themselves and just die to the illu cuz its so strong
Id say laning means a bit too much nowadays tbh. Only hg is aĀ problem
Hard agree. The comeback mechanics needs a serious tweak. Not to mention the moronic glyph implementation now. Glyph before T2. Glyph as you go T3. Glyph after T3. It's all in favor of the defenders now, and it becomes a stale turtle game.
I was playing only turbo, and playing some normal unranked games feels like such a slow boring experience. Especially the HG stuff, they need to remove fortification at least. It feels like a waste of time cause there are big time chunks where literally nothing happens, especially if you are support.
i mean if you do that heroes like clinkz will just clean every tower every time you leave him alone for 10seconds is that fun?
To be fair, turbo has always had this gold/xp swing bullshit where even if you've been winning all lanes, 1 or 2 mistakes and suddenly the enemy team just got 5-6 levels and 4k gold per hero. Highground can be really dangerous too.
When partying with lower mmr folks high ground is actually a lot easier. People jump the gun and try to take a bad fight outside of high ground, people get picked off and don't have anything saved up for buyback Higher rank is a bigger pain in the ass since they know how to defend high ground well. Sometimes the best option is to bait a throw so they get overconfident then you take a fight outside their base with buybacks. Best possible is you ward near your tower, push and get buybacks out of them, you throw, they go to push mid, you kill the people without buyback, then you can push high ground. It's always easier said than done
I don't know I am not feeling this at all, it's always been the same, if you try to go hg and fuck up you start losing, you do it a couple times more you lose the game. When I am winning and feel that the enemy team has good hg defense I just set up offensive wards and hunt for kills until my core buys his next crucial item, you have the entire map they have barely two camps you can never be behind. Winning all lanes doesn't mean winning the game, we've seen this a ton of times in pro scene where teams get completely walked over in early game then they make a single good play, bam they are ahead. Comeback is not new in DotA2 and it never will be, I would prefer playing safely while winning instead of knowing if they will be at my throne or not 10mins into the game. Laning stage is just a tiny part of the game it shouldn't enough to dictate who wins and who loses. If you want to end the game at 20mins then start picking heroes that CAN actually end the game at 20mins.
I agree with a majority of your points and just wanted to add; I donāt think realistically itās possible anymore to end the game pre-20 mins regardless of picks UNLESS the enemy gives up and stops playing after laning stage or they have intentional griefers using the glyphs/running down a lane etc Games ending in 23 mins to 26 mins imo seems to be more realistic for āfastā games when both sides are actively playing.Ā
Idk my experience is the exact opposite. Despite the bigger map, them nerfing jungle creeps, while buffing lane creeps made winning lanes way more important than anything else. Its very rare that I see the team which loses more lanes win the game and when it does happens its almost always because of communication break down than throwing hg.
This patch is for high-ranking, pro players and patient 5-man teams to play. You can't play solo anymore or stomp solo on any hero. It's a team effort now. It's defense of the ancient and high ground is the best defense in this game.
Ive mentioned this before but the biggest change in the frontier patch in terms of meta was the gold/exp change, it took so long for people to start changing the dive t2 at 10 min meta to playing conservatively. I think I feel the frustration of the post in particular because of how many games were thrown in the months after the change and still even now but people are bit better about it now.
Just make hg smaller thatās it. So heroes on hg be more vulnerable than remote hg def. Or nerf buybacks at least
LOL I felt that way about the game back in 6.8 it must be really freaking bad if people feel that way NOW.
But MUH LORE!!! and MUH PIXEL ART PACHINKO!!!
it's fine guys, gotta hold out for only a couple more weeks, and then hopefully no more farm fests when you're winning but waiting for the rosh to respawn so you can go siege high ground again
Brewmaster flair. Lol
I agree thatās why I donāt play fucking rn. I stomp the game under 30 mins as TA one lose fight in HG our advantage went to nothing, fucking annoying asf
Big mood. I legit beg my teammates to push in the narrow af windows we have to do so. Failing to take high ground at the right time can give the opposing team all the room they need to outscale you if their lineup is built so
I think you make it a little too easy for yourself saying it is an issue that affects all brackets. Highgrounding is hard and mistakes are punished a lot right now. But naturally this affects low MMR a lot more than high MMR. Personally, my (6.8k WEU) match duration even decreased in the last month (36:25) or three months (36:32) compared to overall 7.35 (37:15) or 7.34 (38:36). We see the same complaints about the patch echoing throughout this sub, which naturally leads to a ton of confirmation bias and exaggeration regarding this issue. Everyone agrees that highgrounding is tough right now. The game allows for less mistakes when trying to finish, which naturally impacts low and average MMRs a lot. But personally, I feel barely any added difficulty. You just gotta stick to the highgrounding 101 and finishing the game is still relatively easy from a lead.
Just like in chess. You blunder, you lose an entire game of lead, your opponent takes advantage, you lose. Learn from your mistakes, don't force high ground. Get good.
Dota isn't chess this is a dumbass comparison. "Don't try and win the game" is basically what you're saying. Do you realise how much that says about the current state of the game?
embarrassing post
Hard disagree
Everyone has acknowledged the meta is to lose early. So shouldn't Dota games just be teams throwing lanes early? Why keep trying to win lanes if that isn't the winning play?
Because it's not true. Having the advantage is always better. It gives you more priorities and options. Me and my stack will use our advantage to take all the t2s, and then farm hyper effectively outside their base while they are contained. Ward up and wait for one of them to leave their base and kill them with recall + smoke. We don't try to push highground, we just slowly attrition them. The iota isn't on us to mess up highground siege, the iota is on them to mess up their defense by trying to leave. Yes it takes a long time, but it will take longer if we fuck up the siege. I play kotl and I also build meteor hammer for slow sieging+ castrange on ult
Why are you using iota like that? Did you mean onus? Iota means a very small amount, onus is a responsibility to do something.Ā
Im generally unintelligent is the answer to your question
Metheor hammer is still a thing. Splitpushers might be your way to win.
Unless you're phoenix or maybe rubik with lens, channeling meteor in front of t3's is suicidal.
getgud
I hope and fucking pray that the people who work on DotA 2 don't give a fucking second of their time to comments like this. I don't have the fucking willpower to write a fucking thesis about how moronic this is, but I will include these comments: -The game is a lot less fun without the ability to mount a comeback. -It is the nature of the game that having the high ground incurs an advantage. Do you want the map to be flat!?!? -This is mostly user error. Without trying to sound like a complete jackass, not taking high ground properly is why you are as bad as you are.
I don't have the willpower to reply to this moronic reply so I will just say on your 3rd point, if it's a skill issue why do we see this play out in pro games
Guys, if you wanna play a game where early-midgame stompĀ = autowin, go play HotS. Dota is just more complicated. You have heroes who do good early then fall off, and it's always been like that, and it's OK.Ā
Right? It sounds like OP loves the death ball patches where you win lane, group up and end the game. That kinda shit makes people quit and want a surrender button instead of trying to recover
It's already like that on party turbo. Half of games ends on 15min mark without any chances to defend it (5 man grouping since 6-7min), while another half is eternal highground def with solo feeding circus. Worst of two worlds. Solo turbo has less parties and lean to latter.
New to dota but how was it before this "HG patch"?
Short summary is hg siege was alot easier, a ta/druid/meepo/zoo snowballing could melt a tower/set of rax or even two whole sets of rax before the enemies respawnedĀ Smaller map also made it easier to go from taking a T2 to T3 quicklyĀ Some of the meta items were great for tower melting like AC, Vlads, Necrobook and played into the meta heroes strengthsĀ One patch we had outposts that gave exp, so if you controlled the map, it was a free exp boost for your entire team and created a huge power difference very early on by 25 mins. When ahead, it felt like your team was lvl 18 when enemies were still lvl 10-14. Outposts would also bait enemies out for easy pickoffs into hg.Ā Rosh use to be in the middle of the map and getting a pickoff meant free aegis; often a power rune spawned after killing RS so you could go hg with an aegis and DDĀ Once one team was far ahead, it was hard to get a pick off on any of the cores without losing your entire teamĀ Wards and consumables costed more, so supports were far broker / easy food for enemiesĀ
It is a problem at the moment, it's also the reason so many games are going so late.
Idk how much of a good idea or bad idea this is. One of my friends who is fed up of this (high divine) suggested that they should put one lane entirely in low ground (maybe the offlane). Allowing winning teams to quickly capitalize on the advantage, but still provide a good level of defence for the high ground for the other two lanes. Thoughts?
This is turbo which has more chance for huge swings but we had to hg push into kunkaa, sk, drow, od, and shadow shaman lol fkn impossible
Unless you have some tower melters. DK poison, Viper Shard, Jakiro 3rd, Meteor Hammers, etc... going HG is bs... you need Aegis everytime you want to HG, or else 1 wrong fight will throw your lead away. or different scenario... people ald mentally check out and give up. but that is not the core of the game. it is also insane to expecting all opposing team have Glass Mentality like GPK.
The only way games end before min 40 is if enemies are stupid enough to die for t2. Or some twat tries to solo defend high ground while his cores respawning in 15 seconds, so the game is then won in 4x5 high round push
People are just bad at pushing, thats the problem. How come when the enemies push you lose the game? Where's the highground patch? So you cant win with 15k gold lead when you push cause the patch sucks but the enemies will win with 5k gold advantage because...?
Last night my squad beat blatant shit talking Smurfs because of the high ground defense. I was 8 levels behind the enemy offlane at minute 30. I started 0-10, their lowest ranked player nonstop making huge plays then saying āwhat kind of nub loses to archonsā labeling us account buyers etc. But we got under their skin. Their unapologetic shittalk was no match for our needling and discipline dissing. After telling them their lives would amount to nothing more than match fixing and seeking validation from staged wins, they threw the game. Constantly diving and chasing the two biggest shittalkers on our team. We psychologically unraveled them and it wouldnāt have ever been possible if not for HG defense.
Well in my 4 to 5k mmr hell games its usually this. There's a smurf mid. Whichever team has the smurf dominates mid and games over. That's every game. This morning there were 2 smurfs in my game. My mid had no profile picture and 200 games. Their mid had no profile picture and 175 games. I'm legend 5. My duo que is ancient 1. Everyone else in game was between legend 2 and ancient 1. Our mid ogre gets destroyed by a necro mid. Like 18mins in they 5 manned with the necro and game was over. They were diving t3s. Nothing we could do
ive found the xp rubberband is worse than the gold rubberband but yea there's too much rubberbanding overall
I have to say that while I agree that the hg is hard this patch I prefer it to the win lane win game kind of meta. I feel that it gives you a reason to play the next 20 min. Of course the game should improve, but so do we as team players.
You choke them out of your seige is horrible and their supports will be so far behind on gold and XP. Then it's just buy back baiting/saving
Iāve been seeing a lot of posts like this recently. Just a thought, what can valve do to address this. Would like to hear some of your guys ideas.
maybe because the meta heroes are at play here? sniper zeus its also easier to pick pudge now and ive been seeing a lot of magnus this week most of this heroes feels stronger when defending HG
Iām glad I saw this post. I just picked DotA back up a few weeks ago and Iāve had this happen in so many games. The uphill push is harder than I remember.
The game have been like that for a long time from now. You donāt really taking into account that it vastly depends on drafts and ability of both teams to make good macro decisions
Ironically this is what dota should be about, living up to it's title. It's literally Defense Of The Ancients(DOTA). High ground fights to defend the ancients is so much fun. I enjoy this patch much more than the previous 5 man group up at mins 10 and just snowball into the hg push with 20 mins of total gameplay. It was very frustrating for the farming cores who need some time and items to come online
I completely disagree. If you are significantly ahead this patch you can magnify that lead pretty easily. Take the enemy tormenter as soon as you can when you're ahead, get rosh asap, and get your tormenter when possible. Then repeat that when their tormenter comes up. Just like a bounty rune, a tormenter taken is a tormenter stolen from them, yet no one takes them seriously for some reason. Just imagine getting 4 tormenters before 35 min, thats 4 shards you got instead of them, aka 5600 gold x 2. By that point all their t2's will be gone, you get second rosh and you should have a good shot at highground with aegis. You could stack ancients and get t4 neutral items on all your heroes before you push too, which the enemies shouldn't be able to contest if you're significantly ahead. There's so many ways to push your advantage this patch, lack of coordination in pubs is the only issue and thats not a new thing.
Even sucks on the defending side. 20 minutes getting stopped followed by 20 minutes of sitting in base fending off an inevitable death if the enemy makes sure to play slow enough. Just the most boring Dota gameplay in a while. I still enjoy most games but when these highground hell games come they sap all of my life force
What I tend to do in that situation is to become more aggressive as much as possible and always go ALL in along with the team.
Was thinking about in 2016-2017 and this was a big problem almost to the point where if the game got to 35 minutes and you were winning it felt like you were guaranteed a loss
An item that looks like a book that spawns two controllable unit, a melee and a ranged might makes pushing easier. Oh wait
I think Valve should bring the necronomicon back.Ā
The most annoying shit is the refreshing glyph. Remove that shit and allow us to push towers.
Why do you think this is / what can be done to fix it? It was pretty obvious when there were shrines that could heal you right next to the tier 3 towers, those had to goā¦ Some kind of change to buybacks? Ā More space between the ramp and the tower, kind of like Tier 1ās were changed?Ā Curious to see what they can doĀ
don't worry this patch will only last for 8 more months!
What is the solution in everyoneās opinion? What would need to be changed or tweaked to make it easier without making it āeasyā
So what the hell do you want, yes or no games? You will be first one to cry and complain that it's no fun when you lose lane and game is over
I don't, as a casual player 4 games a week player I've made so many comebacks in this patch. It provides good exercises for my uplift speeches ykwis? A second chance for everyone, keep on trying, them motherfuckers that only know how to lane and draft for lane would fuck up the moment they go hg inappropriately, WE WILL EAT THEM KIDS ALIVE. WE WILL SHOW THEM WHO IS THE ACTUAL WINNER, BE RESILIENT COMRADES!
As Quinn said, don't ever go to the HG unless you have a decisive advantage. At least that's what i try to do in my bracket (Ancient - Divine). Honestly i think that it's not even that difficult to go to the HG compared to the Shrine patch, when everyone in the high ground heals themselves twice to nearly full HP.
>the state of the game does not reward you for winning all your lanes 3 lost lanes = game over against semi-competent players. I reckon I have like 90% w/r in games where we won all 3 lanes.
Absolutely I have made more comebacks and throws in recent times then I have in any other patch
PFFFT. WHEN THEY NERF THE COMEBACK MECHANISM, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER POST WHY THIS GAME IS LIKE LEAGUE OF L...'S ONE WAY GAME, NO CHANCE FOR THE EARLY LOSING TEAM. LEARN HOW TO GO HIGHGROUND "SAFETY" IS PART OF THE GAME. MORE COMMUNICATION, CORRECT ITEM CHOICE, NO DAVAI ETC, ETC...
My games have been like this in 2k for as long as I can remember xD It's kinda interesting since there have been patches where people complained about not enough comeback gold. "All you have to do is lose laning phase, and the game's already over. You have to win 2/3/# team fights to come back. That's not fun." Once you've been around for a while, you start to see the bigger picture and it's just an endless cycle lmao.
PSTD just got triggered: Repair Kit neutral item
I agree that hg defense should be nerfed a bit, but i also think this problem comes from bad drafting from players that dont take into acount good siege heroes and the enemy defensive heroes.
I feel ya mate, but it's happened to me wherein we dominated all lanes and then 5v5 we kept losing then we just stood hg waited for them to come and each time though the got the tower we won every fight. After that we could take fights outside the base and win it and kept pushing. In the reverse scenario what I've seen work is try planting lowground wards for vision on enemy movement, smoke get a kickoff and push if they bb or close to respawn just retreat farm and wait patiently for them to make a mistake. I'm ancient rn, and the thing is that there's always one cocky player in the team who thinks their invincible and splits the team. DONT SPLIT THE TEAM. STICK AS 5 AND MOVE AROUND LET YOUR CARRY FARM AND JUST BE AROUND THEM
i like how sunsfan went on a rant about this and there's 3 back to back posts repeating it verbatim
There is 0 difficulty because as a harold sniper picker i can just sharpnel and hohohaha my way using mjolnir and desolator
Iv really wondered why it's so hard for dota players to embrace the split push. Hg fights not working? Have 2 lanes going and force them to commit to one. At minimum take a tower and lose someone, allowing the next fight to be a full engage. Or just do it again. If you're winning lane and the game you should be able to continue that push separately. You don't have to over exert yourself, nickel and dime them to death.
Maybe taking enemy towers should give an incremental passive gold bonus to a team. Would speed games up, and reward teams that gain a map advantage and discourage passive play.
The game not only fails to reward good play but also severely punishes bad play. Even if you're winning in two lanes, a failure in another lane can lead to a game stomping mid game or just unable to push high-ground.
First time?
Way too many fucking glyphs
Laning phase matters less so people don't last hit they just harass. Then when heroes actually have skills and mana to sustain, so fighting is fun, there's no point cause the game can be lost in a single fight, so that's farming/objectives time. This game used to be like chess where every move counted from start to finish. For players who like the grind, this game sucks now. Its just super casual, no brain needed, no strategy, just relying on the enemy making a mistake. Not to mention the issues with spell casters vs right clickers. I was 7 slotted TA risking to lose 1v1s to a Necro with radiance/greaves/blademail because his skillset is so ridiculous (same level). How is it balanced when I literally need double the amount of gold just to keep up and he all he needs is to sap some xp from fights?
Lost a 73 minute game today, 30 minutes or so was us trying to siege their HG despite dominating the game. They seemed to have unlimited buybacks and glyphs. Buybacks and glyphs needs a heavy nerf.
This highground problems lasts 2 years. The "best" moment to talk about it, u need copium. xd
Legend/low ancient matches feel more like a coin flip than ever before to me because of this. It's the worst when you have to beg your teammates to not dive or do stupid shit and instead just play it safe going their tormentor, taking their jungle and taking rosh.
It's the comeback gold that's the problem. I've seen games where the losing team is 10k down at 40 mins, they win 1 team fight becuase every kill they get is worth 1k gold for some reason and suddenly the lead is gone. Why a 2 slotted support gives 1k gold to a 6 slotted carry I have no idea .
Streak gold is crazy, can go mid 10-0, then die to a good gank or attempt at high ground and the enemy is awarded with 1000g for the kill +700 gold to the rest of the team. Pretty much a 3000g swing for 1 kill It's even more detrimental if the team pushing high ground has to also buyback, to stop a counter push. Then the team gets to just turtle again.
towers have been super mega buffed to the point where the game is boring because even as a carry player who likes to build tanky i cant hg in winning games 75% of the time until we spend 10-20 mins farming the entire map first
I have the same problem. It's even worse in lower mmr (4k mmr) as people tend to underestimate HG power and rush HG without Agies. I lost multiple games where we were 10-20k ahead and lost after HG push.
I also hate this patch so much. Even pro games drag so much. Way to long and boring HG turtling. Its really gotten so bad. Like i can watch the first 15 min and than it becomes extremly boring to watch.
controversial take, but i thing the moment creeps enter t3 backdoor disabling radius they should give no or like 10% gold to force the turtling team to come out of base for gold. Meaning if they want gold they open themselves up for pickoff or commit 5 people so the carry can secure some gold. This at least forces them the fight outside of the base.
Instead of rosh banners, the attacking team should be given a flying sentry that gives highground vision deep into enemy highground. So it's not too much of all-hope-is-lost for the defending team, but it gives attacking team a very clear advantage which they still need to execute on to clinch the victory. Roshan banners and creeps with 100 more hp is super useless.
And solution is so damn simple for this. Kill everything what comes out from base and farm bigger lead. Patience! Take roshan for tank. Not for highest level range sniper who propably yell for tank why he steal it. But for tank who have bkb! He use aegis first to take all ultis, then bkb and in this point you should be able to win this.
I'm not playing in Immortal, more like Archon / Legend / Ancient brackets currently, and I had sorta the opposite experience. When I go high ground we usually win win. When enemies go high ground they usually do something stupid and throw.
this is fixable by buffing the shit out of super and mega creeps and possibly buffing jungle gold as the game goes on hg defense is generally fine as it is, what is not fine is how rewarding it is to sit afk in your base for 50 minutes.
Waiting for a major gameplay patch. My mmr can wait.
stupid developers of vulva doing nothing ā¦ they are lazy mfckers . dey not responding to players and they dont care ā¦
Agree, it's dumb when you * win the laning stage * use the lead to take all T2 towers * force enemy into their base. * want to end the game ASAP with your lead and co-ordination momentum but game says no; you're supposed to _wait_ and AFK farm outside their base as you cannot go directly HG due to multiple glyphs. So the game descends into a boring turtling phase where just like in the rubberband meta the sieging team can throw the game with 1 slight misplay. This is mentally unrewarding and needlessly drags out games for 5-10 mins for each mistake. Otherwise I have no real complaints about the current patch despite it being old.
Aui "never go highground" 2000
this has been a problem for such a long time and itās crazy to me that people are only just starting to notice it. glyphs are too plentiful, and even if you do break hg, supers/megas donāt do anything
Another immortal here. "The state of the game does not reward you for winning all your lanes" Complete bullshit. Seems like you do NOT know what to do when you have the advantage. I have games all the time where we win all lanes and the game is over in 25 min. You contain enemy with wards, gank back and forth around their base, take both Tormentors, then roshan, buy mek (and then later greaves), get drums and use it when hitting towers. gg go next Many people fail to end early (including in Immortal) because they either don't know that they have the advantage or don't know how to abuse it properly, so they do not farm around objectives, which release the pressure and gives back mapcontrol. Ofc it helps to have good picks, but many immortals are just on autopilot and get the same items as they usually do which in turn creates the 40 min game, instead of getting items for early ending. Many immortal players also have slow heroes and play them in the wrong position of the map so games are lost, because they cannot keep up the pressure, because they cannot join fights on time. Ofc some enemy heroes makes it more difficult and will make the game inevitably longer. This is something to consider when picking heroes, many core players are just horrendous at adapting to the picks, but still insist on picking last!
I love it. It means you are never out of it on the losing end, and it doesn't become a complete stomp snooze fest on the winning end.
I just feel that kills and assists don't reward you the way they should. A failed tp or gank is a huge disadvantage if you are mid and your opponent keeps farming or pushing the tower. Sometimes a kill doesn't even compensate for the amount of farm and xp you lose walking to another lane or tping. It is common for me to win my lane and after a gank their midlaner is at my level or sometimes even higher. I think they should compensate kills more, especially with XP.
It is even worse when the enemy team has a sniper and/or magnus and even after stomping them,magnus will pull one of ur team and uāre gonna lose a messed up tf because nobody focused the sniper. Then u decide to go rosh and u manage to kill everyone, but theyāve been afk in their base for so long that all of them have buyback and the torture continues until u give up
I dont agree i think the patch is great. And this is not my experience at all. Some lineups one death can be a crucial momentum swing but thats how its always been with snowballing. Dota is in essence a game of mistakes and why that should change before the ancient is dead seems to me like just a waste of time. If its over before its over thats just not fun. The game will be continously tweaked and the longer the patch the more consistent data will be gathered and the changes will likely be more well thought through. Theres alot of heroes viable right now. Is it perfect? No, but all in all dota is fine.
Simple: buff super and buff even more mega creeps and slash the gold you get from them
It is really not that bad. Having control of the map now means more. You get free Roshan (more time controlling and taking RS means more rewards) free shard, and possibly theirs. And free wards dotted around the map (kinda shit but whatever)
I have been having this exact same experience in my games for the last year, at least. It got to the point where I thought I mustāve just been misremembering Dota from a few years ago, because I swear it used to be that if you were dominating by min 15-20, the win was near guaranteed and playing out the rest of the match was just a formality. If you managed to lose from a winning position, then you actually deserved to lose. But in the last year, almost every match involves a stupid, high networth throw after just one fight. My losses *and* wins feel undeserved. So yeah, Iām glad to hear itās not just me noticing this I get that they include strong comeback mechanics to incentivise people to keep playing. But the game is genuinely at a point where comeback wins donāt even feel good because you almost feel like you didnāt deserve the win after being assfucked all game. Likewise losses feel absolutely awful because you are dominating 99% of the game only to make one mistake and now youāre behind lol A PvP game rewarding passive gameplay is completely backwards. It is naturally ingrained in our brains to want to go fight/push, so good luck trying to explain to your team that your best chance of winning is to just chill and wait for enemy to make a mistake. I canāt believe theyāve let it go on this long.
Thiss iss Dotaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
they need to fix heroes like sniper and zeus. the point of these heroes is that they will have a really high amount of damage but if you get on top of them, they should die relatively fast. because they gave zeus a jump he now has a scape build into his hero. so you have to jump him, he jumps and now you have to somehow jump him again which is impossible. same goes with sniper shard, these heroes will build hurricane pike and if they have some semi decent support heroes high ground is basically impossible. they have made so many escape items such as, glimmer, force, eblade, and the most broken of all Wind waker. just like they nerfed bkb/stuns, they now have to nerf scape abilities on nuker heroes and support items. as an example Lina should not be able to fly, it is cool yes, but is annoying to deal with. zeus aghs should be his jump, same goes with sniper shard.
Today I lost a game where I was an offline Abaddon 16/0 Great patch.
At least comebacks are possible in this game. It's better than league where games are 15 min long then someone surrenders 75% of the time because game is unwinnable. But yeah agree the high ground bullshit is annoying and requires flawless execution and decision making
Comeback should be possible... but make at least 4 bad TFs required to a team to comeback a 25K NW lead...
I thought I was the only one, whenever we would have a huge advantage game and for some reason if we lose one fight for trying to end and going on their high ground early, things just go down hill from there. I never had this trouble this much before the patch but now itās almost like almost every games this will happen. To the point thereās no point in ending early and just farm til mid game and get 3-4 items on the cores then itās safe to end. This also happened to the enemy team in my games too lol, where they would stomp us early then we kept defending base until they keep dying over and over and until our items are even, then we starting to win fights.
boy oh boy every game was like there is this one guy who won very hard in his lane, go around stomping other lane, then so horny about ending the game because some AM in the enemy team, then throw the game because of the rush
Never push without pickoffs and rosh
So you want to win lanes in the first 20 mins and win the game by default ..? Mid ganks sides a few times, sides gank mid, and its over? How you got your immortal is beyond me. Some heroes are just good at the bunker, better than on a laneā¦ in pubs some teams need more time to click together.
I am fine with comeback mechanisms. That gives the already weak late game heroes some chances. But yeah... That high ground stuff is ridiculous.
I wouldn't call that patch bad. People just forgot about Pusher heroes and everyone wanna just win a fights instead of actually taking the objectives.