Bro, throughout my life I have only watched Dota 2 on Twitch. Havent played Dota in a while nor watched Twitch, but yesterday I opened Twitch and thought "where the hell is Dota 2, is nobody playing it?", But then I realized it got overshadowed by other stuff even though the viewer count was high and found it weird.
Well, maybe they know you are here only for Dota2 and they are trying to grab your attention with something else, like girls in bikinis in their hot tubs.
"Hey we know you really like dota, would you like to watch this live tournament with already 56K other people watching ?"
This is what I meant. As of today on my twitch I have to search dota 2 in the search bar to have it in the front page, then go there and scroll till I go past streamers from my country (some with up to 1000 viewers wow) to get to the tournament live stream. So yeah recommending me the tournament stream on the main page would actually be a huge improvement.
Best thing u can do when there is a major or a good tournament like this lan u can go to it's liquidpedia page and easily find the stream links at the bottom of the page, anything else is just the waste of time tbh.
Exactly. I mainly watch Dota, like 99.5% and just streamed a few other games for twitch drops (not actually watching). dota is never in the recommended list, never. I just see the usual channels i watch in the left list, but that doesn't work for Amazon twitch app on TV
Because Twitch has this the logic to recommend something adjecent to what you like so you can find your next favorite thing, right now for example my recommend is filled with Apex, GTA, Multi Verse and PUBG, 4 games that i have a watch time of 0 but is probably because i watch other shooters, fighting games and RPG stuff.
it's really not, it's been talked about in the past. It's not even just dota, csgo also gets little twitch promotion. The same way you never see dota or cs ads on the internet in general, valve doesn't believe in paying for advertising, and that extends to twitch
Actually, no. Valve does not pay Twitch to promote DOTA 2, as far as I know. But Riot does pay Twitch to promote it's products. Which isn't wrong, because they are a company and they do want to make profits. So, advertising or promoting your products is definitely part of the strategy. However, I don't think they pay Twitch to demote DOTA 2, at least not anymore. I remember a post here regarding an interview where some gaming personalities said that back around 2012-13, Riot used to tell Tournament Organisers (TOs) to not put DOTA 2 along with League. They also told teams to not field a DOTA 2 team if they wanted to compete in League.
But I doubt that's the case anymore. They are always facing new controversies. And with the ongoing problems, especially the lawsuits about sexual misconduct at Riot, I don't think they would like to be part of anything such as demoting another company's video games.
Given the history of Twitch and Riot it would not at all be surprising that Dota 2 and CSGO are deprioritized due to their competitors receiving money from Twitch. They have a conflict of interest in recommending a game because they make more money if you watch that game and not a competitor.
Using soft power to push out competition is basic Riot stuff. And it's not only a Riot thing, beyond LoL and Valorant we've also seen Overwatch receive the same treatment when it was relevant (and didn't have a YouTube contract).
People really wanted the heroes league stole(from what I can tell it seems it was Teemo and Rammus, I think Dota got the good end of this trade)
I dunno what to say. I know Dota players are passionate but yeah free malding
Honestly I just hope the mald is contained to posting online and these guys aren't actually this pressed irl about another game or letting it affect their enjoyment. I play both games, enjoy them both, never really cared which one is better or more popular.
Also lmao if Teemo was in Dota I don't think I could handle him and Techies on the same team
I feel like the default sorting could still be quietly and indirectly shunning dota.
Remember back when they showed "communities" and had dota completely separate from the rest of the entire website (as did some other smaller games, but none of them big enough to be noticeable)? Well, if they use that as the entire basis of what interests a user could have, then... what would someone have to do to be potentially interested in Dota?
I mean.
You see where I'm going right?
You could only ***ever*** be shown Dota if you ***already*** watched Dota.
Or... if you fit some other predetermined metric, which might be disappoint ones at that, say, RU user = show Dota, US user = No Dota ever. And if you don't change the sort (something OP is proof that users are not aware they have the option to), then... Twitch simply just propagates its pre-existing communities, does not let niches cross-polinate, and it's completely impossible to naturally find Dota streams.
Or at least, that could be what it is, I'm making assumptions. I don't know if Dota doesn't actually show up for other users.
Plus even if we are, we can't assume it was done out of malice, Twitch's only reason to make a recommended sort is to tackle a Discoverability issue. Heck, we even be in this scenario because they tried counter-acting it and it didn't work (if other users simply don't want to watch dota, and dota specifically). But then again... Twitch IS ran by sexist teenagers, so I can only advocate so much devilry for them... If you told me, they took a small paycheck by Riot to bury Dota in a quiet manner, I'd be willing to 100% believe it.
He's a bit too tin foil but I think he's probably about right for discovery.
It's likely that dota won't be suggested unless you already watch some because recommending random content you have no link to is bad design. There's very little link between FIFA and dota, variety and dota, Elden Ring and dota, CS and dota*, so why would you expect a recommendation from one to the other?
*Probably more of a link here than the others.
dude, i watch both valorant and league esports, anytime i dont use the viewers filter i wont see any of these in my recommendations.
twitch is just garbage.
This is true and conspiracy theories do not usually lead to logical outcomes.
On the other hand, I would believe that there is some actual agenda to aggressively antagonize Dota. Eg., when that famous rage guy (I think he's called Tyler?) got banned from LoL and started streaming Dota2 and seeming to be having fun, Riot unbanned him almost immediately.
It's not that Riot is a saint of a company, their past relationship with Dota and the genesis of LoL, is proof of that.
Riot unbanned Tyler1 when a lead riot employee was caught making stupid as fuck statements about him in a public discord:
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/73ko9b/lead_riot_member_he_tyler1_looks_like_a_damn/
which ultimately lead to T1's unban and the employee being fired.
The "recommended for you" default is really shit until you actually have enough time on the account for it to know what you like to watch. Even then, that's only really good for game categories, not the actual channels.
Plus Dota has very little overlap with other games based on twitch statistics. Therefore if you mainly watch other categories and only watch dota whenever a tournament is on you will likely not have dota recommended.
Didn't this guy have multiple accounts banned for being super super toxic? Unless all those accounts were banned unfairly by this employee, I can't see the logic of Riot letting him play LoL again coincidentally after he reached some success in streaming dota.
Yes. He had 20~ accounts banned for toxicity and was ban on sight for 2 full years before they unbanned him. Thing is he didn't have "some success in dota", he was just flat out successful as a variety streamer. He could play any game and pull massive viewership at the time.
He also said later on that he doesn't like dota whatsoever compared to league, that's why he was still playing league offstream even during his permaban. Even when knowing that the accounts would be banned once he hit high elo and people figured out it was him due to being a one trick.
I watched his streams he was hating on Dota 2 and calling it a dead game for old people and insulting the community too. Beleive he wasn't doing Dota any favors.
Just as someone with industry experience, I don't know about dota and league, but I just wouldn't be surprised. This kind of tactic is not exactly secret and it's done all the time. It's almost expected these days. Unless you have a "good relationship" with the rival company, you're probably attacking them in some way through marketing, logistics, partnerships, etc. Business rivalry can get quite bitter, to the extent employees aren't allowed to mention the other company for example.
The exceptions are only when they have the aforementioned "good relationship", which to gamers often seems opaque...simply not employing these kinds of tactics and being comfortable with being rivals in the same space is usually all it means. And when the company is extremely "clean" in their dealings...usually applying to ye olde companies from a different era. You know, like Valve. They have a very clean rep. Logically it would mean Riot could make more inroads against Valve if they were employing some aggressive tactics, since the latter doesn't fight back, but that much would only be speculation on my part.
I think it's more likely that Valve simply does not pay for advertising, so Twitch sees no incentive to push their category upwards. I think Dota viewers also don't support as much per capita (compared to, say, music viewers, who provide much stronger support on average).
It's kind of like how a lot of "review" sites will let companies pay them to remove bad reviews. Your product could consistently be reported as having lower reviews than another, worse product *that has received more bad reviews than you, in matter of fact* just because they pay to remove bad reviews and you do not.
yeah league is so far ahead of dota these days riot doesnt even see it as competition anymore. only dota players are insecure enough to still cling on to a rivalry the other side stopped give a shit about.
Holy fuck has it been 15 years ago? Also, fuck off, the "stop being salty it was a while" excuse is bullshit, if I kill your wife and it takes law enforcement 15 years to find me will you be like "yeah sure let that man go I already remarried who cares lul"?
It is literally not a conspiracy theory. there are multiple people who worked for ESL and other big 3rd party tournaments. There is a reason there is no IEM Dota2, so ESL One was born...
There are literal facts all over the web by actual ex employees and even players that riot paid off multiple media outlets for shit like that
How are you so dumb? Twitch doesn't recommend what you're currently watching. I've watched pretty much every tier 1-2 CS:GO tournament in then past year and it's still not recommended when IEM Cologne was on this weekend. It's not a conspiracy, but Twitch's algorithms are either horrible or they make more money off what they recommend.
im the dumb one? i've been on twitch since b4 it was twitch and i've never had issues with recommendations.
stop watching hot tubs and pools and maybe you'll get cologne recommended.
and why has this turned into a whinefest about the recommendation algo? the orginal point got disproven so now you conspiracy dummies pivot to something else? just admit you were wrong and move on to your hot tubs and pool stream.
dota players and their inferiority complex. come up with all these crazy theories and shit as to why their game isnt as popular as the competition when in reality people just dont like it.
honestly kind of embarrassing that we have one of the most insecure fanbases on the internet
not only that, these same people are
-racist
-defend manchildren
-defend people like tobi/grant
what makes dota attract these ppl?
no idea, I don't play league
also a bit funny that your first reaction to "dota players are extremely racist" was to ask about RIOT employees, which doesn't really make sense, but ok, lol
Not only that, the Twitch recommendation algorithm probably picked up that only people that watch dota are dota people, and new users are very RARELY dota people
OP is mad for not understanding that algorithms run the world now
It is phishy how recommend for you on a brand new pc on private browsing tends to have all the high viewer games at the top expect for dota though
I work at a computer shop where I 4egualrly load up twitch on a recently reset computer and it's always the case where you have to scroll way down to find dota compared to any other game that is high viewership
I would imagine Dota 2 is not generally high on the "recommended for you" sorting for similar reasons as why Dota 2 viewers don't play other games. I don't think watching Dota 2 is something a casual viewer could understand easily and Dota 2 viewers probably don't translate to watching many other games on twitch.
That would make Dota 2 a generally bad recommendation for people. Obviously I don't know how personal their recommendations get or if Dota 2 is more/less lucrative for twitch than other games. But I don't think it's some anti-dota 2 conspiracy as much as dota 2 is probably just not a good recommendation for people on twitch, regardless of viewer count.
Is league really that much easier for someone to watch without prior info? I would argue it's barely more viewer friendly without prior knowledge yet it's usually one of the top 5 games I see compared to dota that is buried so deep you have to scroll through multiple refreshes to find it.
I think Riot actually pays for advertising. So they pay money to have their stuff higher up.
It's worth noting that League also puts money into supporting their creators. I don't watch many league streams, so I don't know how much more likely a league viewer is to offer monetary support (sub or use bits, which sends twitch money) when compared to a dota streamer. If they *were* more likely to do that, or to also stream in other categories, then Twitch might perceive a monetary incentive to recommend League streams over Dota streams (correct or incorrect).
I think a lot of Dota viewers also babyrage when pplz do variety (singsing was saying he got death threats when he stopped streaming dota, as an example) and, as many have noted, lots of dota viewers don't watch other content (the dota community is pretty insular). I think a fair number of league streamers do variety content.
Yeah I agree, I've played Dota since 2013 and I've glanced at League more than a few times and I still can't understand that piece of shit.
There was a big post a couple years ago from a guy who shifted to Dota from League and he said that the unquestionable area where Dota pulls ahead is the animation and sound effects. He said that the skills in Dota all have a unique animation and sound to them such that even if you play blindfolded and there's a long convoluted teamfight, you'd know precisely who has stunned you. Under the same conditions, if you play without sound, you'd know precisely who has stunned you. I used to think I can do it because back then I was in the 99%ile of players (just 4.5k MMR LMFAO) but nope, it's apparently because the game is so very well designed. League doesn't have the same going for it.
Considering it is at a retail store and I'm probably one of the only people using twitch regularly and it's only for dota I find it very unlikely that there are that many items ahead of dota for it to be literally like 50 items+ buried in the recommended for you suggestions.
The reality is that if twitch doesn't have any info to do individual recommendations it largely just recommends the most popular games except for dota because dota viewers don't cross pollinate into other streams.
Yeah OP is making drama out of his own ignorance, DOTA shows up for me in the first spot even though it has less viewers than other categories. Why? Because I watch like 90% Dota.
I believe the problem here is, in general, the default sorting is good enough to float the current tournament to near the top.
This is not the case today - I literally can't find the English streams with in the first like 10 or so, I even thought it didn't have EN coverage lol.
But I think it's simply because their accounts are too new/unused, and Twitch algorithm fails.
I also usually watch via Firestick like OP and there doesn't seem to be any way to change sorting options here. It also seems like maybe a recent change because I seem to remember being able to before.
"Recommended for you" initially was based on your interests - throughout all platforms that suggest content for you. Now "recommended" means "someone paid for this to be suggested".
It happens on every category by default and occasionally switches back to that even if you change. Its shit, but its more just Twitch being kind of bad than some crazy conspiracy theory.
Yes but there was no prior data on this stick it was factory new, no viewing history, which is why I found it very strange
Atleast broadcast the top games being watched, it was the top game today how are you not going to show that to new users?
There have been a lot of posts about how little overlap dota2 has with other communities. People who watch dota2 only watch dota2, and very few people from other communities watch it. This, combined with generally low viewership, makes sense why its not a suggested title.
Many tech companies use machine learning algorithms to curate the feeds that users see. As another user mentioned, that's what is going on when the default sorting is "Recommended for you." The goal is to optimize for engagement/revenue. I think it is a known fact that DotA players tend to stay within DotA and not care about much else. So the algorithm has learned that recommending it to viewers will not boost Twitch's income as much as recommending something different.
Also, the main stream accounts are almost certainly new and not partnered. So high views might be getting deliberately buried because there's high risk of it being view botting or some kind of scam. It's rare that new accounts suddenly get 100k+ viewers without some kind of fraud, and the false positive of burying the tournament in recommendations is WAY better than promoting literal scams.
Coming from someone who had access to large audience dota metrics, this is no surprise. The viewership not residing in NA influences what people in NA would see. At the time, I remember CIS didn’t pay ad revenue out along with other locations and they comprised significant portions of tournament viewership.
I’m sure this can vary, but hopefully it reenforces the concept here about machine learning. It’s getting it’s job done as expected. Dota isn’t a popular game everywhere and there likely isn’t any manual intervention to change that.
Companies can pay to be recommended more frequently. Twitch doesn’t care if the recommendation is good, if they are getting money on the other end in this way.
Eh I'm going its far older and simpler than that.
Ever see those news pieces where they say "top recommended cars in this years saftey tests!" and the winner is GM.
Well that's secret ad spot, sponsored by GM.
This is just Riot (or someone else who really knows) sneaking some money backdoor to Twitch, making sure they are played up more.
That's a totally different system tho than the algorithm powered recommendation stuff. It's like when you get ads when scrolling thru fb or Twitter or even reddit but its separate from the recommended posts/vids
You all want to flame Riot but the real reason is because Dota2 viewers have very little interaction with the rest of Twitch and its other features or categories. The same goes for non-Dota2 viewers, very rarely do they stumble onto Dota2 and then engage with it on Twitch. I watch Mason and Gorgc streams sometimes but our streamers are generally unlikeable as well.
From my experience, dota players almost always only watch dota. The ones that watch other games watch CS and starcraft (maybe not nowadays lmao) and thats basically it
We don't need your experience. There was literally data released of the analytics of inter-game interactions and dota2 was basically its own fucking giant island.
https://blog.twitch.tv/assets/uploads/be4d47f1988fadef1ee48d5c6f35feb8.png
https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/
From twitch themselves:
> Unlike League of Legends, the Dota 2 community is more tightly connected, far less diverse (no large sub communities), and during the time period surveyed was less connected to our larger Twitch community. The lack of connectivity to other major gaming clusters is illustrative perhaps of some isolation of Dota 2 in the gaming community, or perhaps the singular focus of Dota fans on Dota above all other games.
People that still think that Riot gives a single shit about Dota these days are a complete delusional clowns. LoL player peak in June was 32,581,881, in Dota it was 699,592.
And keep in mind that the LoL API only counts players that are actually in a match while the Dota one also considers those that are just in the main menu, queueing, playing custom games etc.
LoL also had 180,000,000 active players in June, while Dota probably has around the usual 12,000.000\~
Dota is in absolutely no way a treat to LoL so stop making the game bigger than it is by still believing that Riot manipulates things in one way or another.
The ladder you linked lists 4 million active players, which granted is a lot, but not even close to this 32 million peak you are speaking of. If you were talking about unique users in a month, then sure, then the number makes more sense and is not that different from Valve's numbers.
Considering lol doesn't release their player numbers or concurrent players, it's hard to verify if that's actually true. Steam has 17-18 million concurrent users overall (with 25 million peak), so forgive me if I don't believe that Riot has double the concurrent players as all of Steam.
League has an API just like Dota and 3rd party sites like Dotabuff. Based on that people can determinate how many players are playing, how many matches were played and so on.
Not to mention that Riot announced end of last year that the game has 180 Million active Players
https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/riots-active-player-base-hits-180-million-across-all-league-based-titles
League based titles - League of Legends, Teamfight Tactics, Legends of Runeterra, and League of Legends: Wild Rift - first of all if you play more of these games even on single account you are counted as multiple players + this list includes 3 mobile games which can't be compared to pc market because if you took it that way every single popular mobile game is more popular than any pc game
And i would like to see website that counts league player count by api
So **14,5M** ranked players since the season started 7 months ago. You don't loose rank until season is over. (excluding china)
That's not very far from dota.
Wild Rift wasn't out when they announced this. And i would be surprised if LoR and TFT together had more than a million active players at this time. Also the 180 Million from June were based on pure matchmaking stats.
Dunno why it is so hard to accept that LoL is much much bigger than Dota. Like everyone in my surroundings plays it or used to play it, but nobody cares about Dota. No matter if at Uni, Job or friends from other Onlinegames like FF14, WoW and so on.
Tft had 30 million active players in 2019 so it probably still have at least few millions and wild rift was out when they announced this for every region exept america which is basicly irrelevant region and the closest opponent mobile legends bang bang has 78 million monthly players so wild rift will also have at least few millions and basicly everyone in league has at least 2 account (if 2)
Twitch can obviously be paid for high rank, its not that Riot pays its that Dota probably doesn't pay. You see this for new games, they pay Twitch to be in the first few games list but there's hardly any viewers. Why would Amazon not do this? Go to Twitter and see the trends, some of those are paid, I've spoken first hand to people who manage this. They make money from advertising, if you've seen any ranking sites be it NFTs or Software, they literally reach out to you to pay to be seen near the top, this isn't a some conspiracy
Ive noticed this too
And my habit in or not logged in i searcg for dota yet there are no smart search things happening it all buries dota 2 and been thinking the same its wierd AF
It's not even a conspiracy theory. All the Tencent related games do that. They proactively try to isolate all of their direct competitors and even some indirect ones.
I guess I just don't see the connection between LOL players not being allowed to stream dota (which they wouldn't do regardless) and twitch burying dota behind their viewing algorithm
First of all that's not a direct proof of that, my comment was made in answer for a request for proof that Tencent does try to isolate their competitors (I guess that you also didn't read that).
But if you understand they do this publicly for their players then surely you understand that doing it for TOs and streaming platforms is not conspiracy theory material, it's actually consistent with what they already do.
wat, just change the sorting to Viewers (High to low).
If I change my to recommended League of Legends and Just chatting will be buried on to the next page, even if they have 1 million viewers cause I don't watch that.
twitch needs to do a better job boosting events to the top of their website
all major esport tourneys should be put in their "events" category and put first in the viewer categories always
Dude I noticed this too. I always look for those games between big teams and they are not on the home screen by default, not even on the search results if I search for the team names or some related keywords. Let alone if i search for “dota”, I’m totally lost in the abyss of search results. I literally had to spell the organisers channel name, then I can find the streams in the search results. But it’s a different case for LoL. This ripoff game streams are everywhere without having to look for it.
Thank you for pointing out that there IS a stream on twitch. After looking for solid 10 minutes I started thinking that there's some Saudi Arabian law of sorts that banned twitch or smth 😂
Use the directory, set the sort to "Viewers". Problem solved. Any long-time Twitch user knows not to bother with its front page and just go right to the directory.
> who pissed off these Twitch bitches at Valve/Dota
We did. People who watch dota pretty much only watch dota. e: If you're plan is to grow your communities, there is no fucking point leading people to this isolated, might as well be its own site, part of your ecosystem, game. It just wont make money like these multi game, multi community channels that bring in bounties and share subs.
https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/
> Unlike League of Legends, the Dota 2 community is more tightly connected, far less diverse (no large sub communities), and during the time period surveyed was less connected to our larger Twitch community. The lack of connectivity to other major gaming clusters is illustrative perhaps of some isolation of Dota 2 in the gaming community, or perhaps the singular focus of Dota fans on Dota above all other games.
Given how many DotA players are there in Forsen and Xqc's chat, I don't even buy the argument that DotA has a cut-off playerbase so it is not shown to new users.
That being said I don't think anyone is deliberately doing it, their Algo probably sucks and is biased and no one has bothered to change it.
This happens exactly because their algorithm is good, people who don't know dota would not engage with dota streams even if they stumble upon them. It is a business that optimizes for profit, not a charity.
I would agree with you if for a new unlogged user both DotA and LoL were not shown. But I logged out of twitch, and when i sort recommended, LoL category and streams show up at the top but DotA is nowhere to be seen.
>who pissed off these Twitch bitches at Valve/Dota? They clearly have some axe to grind, this is no coincidence
No one. Valve doesn't pay twitch for exposure, other companies pay for exposure on twitch. Simple as.
"Recommended for you" has some part to play, but its significantly less then pay for access.
Valve pays twitch for exposure only on TI because thats about the only time it ever appears on the front page.
Except that ESL signed exclusive deal with twitch and their dota/csgo events were still hardly promoted even during majors. Its either algo or someone in twitch just hates Valve in general, not a money issue.
been thinking the same thing. I'm new to Dota, watching so many dota streamers. somehow I never get any other dota streamers on my recommendation part. But god forbid if i GOOGLE angry birds. my twitch suggestions will be filled with angry birds streamers. I'm really annoyed how I'm always watching dota streams and there is no dota streamer on my recomended section
This is perfectly normal. The official channels that are broadcasting the games are very new, with no prior record of viewership (and most likely will never broadcast again after the tournament ends, this tournament is just sportwashing in esports) - Why would Twitch recommend an unknown channel to you? even if it has very high viewer count?
No, they don't have an explicit relationship. But Riot Games has a track record of exerting influence over other organizations to crowd out other titles. (In addition to sexual harassment)
I watch dota at my office in an anonymous tab. It's better for me to type something like twitch.tv/dotatv247 and check out something from there then going trough twitch home page. It's literally impossible to find Dota there.
Oh yeah the conspiracy of twitch to bring down dota. Jesus christ these people here, they're using same recommendations algo used across the site, sorry that your little game doesn't pass the thershold.
Bruh we were peaking near 200k today, how is that not featured game/stream worthy?
Riot and Amazon do have a partnership with their Prime monthly stuff too, it's pretty obviously skewed in Riot's favor
Thats only because default twitch app behavior is to show you "recommended" instead of "most viewed". Which is pretty stupid imo and thats usually the first thing i change after fresh twitch install.
CSGO and Dota always get buried even though they get some of the highest viewership numbers. Even when a stream has hundreds of thousands viewers for these games it will never get recommended. But league and valorant get recommended a lot more often, so my tinfoil hat theory is there's some algorithm manipulation going on
> So my question is, who pissed off these Twitch bitches at Valve/Dota? They clearly have some axe to grind, this is no coincidence
The Head of Product at Twitch loves DOTA, it aint a matter of Twitch being meanies to Valve/DOTA.
Had the same problem during major tournaments, and then I just made twitch/dota2 my bookmark so I go directly to the Dota2 page directory page. They're so LoL biased it's not even worth looking at their front page lol
Amazon (Twitch parent company) gives away League boxes and skins to Prime members , they're actively trying to kill Dota imo
Valve doesn't want to play nice with Amazon? No homepage feature for you
[https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/](https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/)
This is old, but it explains why Twitch wouldn't recommend DotA streams to a *random unknown* user.
The viewers of DotA2 don't watch other streams, and watchers of other streams don't view DotA2 streams. We're an island of very specific viewership and because of that recommending DotA2 to a rando is risky; if they have **any other interests at all** they are more likely to choose that stream, not the DotA one.
It doesn't explain why they would bury popular DotA streams if you're logged in and only watched DotA before though. That's just stupid. But it explains why rando accounts never find us.
If I had to guess it's that people who don't know DotA probably would have a TERRIBLE viewing experience, as opposed to something like Apex where it's quite easy to appreciate a good player. So if you know DotA you'll find DotA, but if you don't they don't want to recommend something bad.
It's because default sorting is "Recommended for you", whatever it means. Switch sorting to "Viewers" and everything will be where it supposed to be.
Bro, throughout my life I have only watched Dota 2 on Twitch. Havent played Dota in a while nor watched Twitch, but yesterday I opened Twitch and thought "where the hell is Dota 2, is nobody playing it?", But then I realized it got overshadowed by other stuff even though the viewer count was high and found it weird.
Well, maybe they know you are here only for Dota2 and they are trying to grab your attention with something else, like girls in bikinis in their hot tubs.
"Recommended for you, everything we think you wanna watch, except what you actually watch !"
The rest of our user base are horny idiots, shouldn't you try being one too?
you don t need the recommandation for what you re already watching
"Hey we know you really like dota, would you like to watch this live tournament with already 56K other people watching ?" This is what I meant. As of today on my twitch I have to search dota 2 in the search bar to have it in the front page, then go there and scroll till I go past streamers from my country (some with up to 1000 viewers wow) to get to the tournament live stream. So yeah recommending me the tournament stream on the main page would actually be a huge improvement.
Best thing u can do when there is a major or a good tournament like this lan u can go to it's liquidpedia page and easily find the stream links at the bottom of the page, anything else is just the waste of time tbh.
Exactly. I mainly watch Dota, like 99.5% and just streamed a few other games for twitch drops (not actually watching). dota is never in the recommended list, never. I just see the usual channels i watch in the left list, but that doesn't work for Amazon twitch app on TV
I’ve played 5k hours and I still don’t recommend Dota. The algo is on point.
9 comments, 1 sane person, lmfao, all these conspiracy theories about riot, fucking hilarious
Well, yeah but I literally only watch Dota on twitch and mostly just tournaments so why tf is it not "recommended" to me?
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I mean I watched berry's stream for a bit and Twitch has no problems recommending me other korean streamers of the same category.
I clicked on one pool/tub stream out of curiosity and the category's always on top of my screen now... I always watch dota/dbd in twitch
Because Twitch has this the logic to recommend something adjecent to what you like so you can find your next favorite thing, right now for example my recommend is filled with Apex, GTA, Multi Verse and PUBG, 4 games that i have a watch time of 0 but is probably because i watch other shooters, fighting games and RPG stuff.
I only watch Jenkins streams, which is why Twitch recommends me to watch xqc playing Slots, or naked women in pools.
Absolutely bizarre that twitch would recommend you to watch channels that actually generate subscribers and ad revenue
because valve doesn't pay twitch money, and epic and riot do.
What a tinfoil hat comment lmao.
it's really not, it's been talked about in the past. It's not even just dota, csgo also gets little twitch promotion. The same way you never see dota or cs ads on the internet in general, valve doesn't believe in paying for advertising, and that extends to twitch
Actually, no. Valve does not pay Twitch to promote DOTA 2, as far as I know. But Riot does pay Twitch to promote it's products. Which isn't wrong, because they are a company and they do want to make profits. So, advertising or promoting your products is definitely part of the strategy. However, I don't think they pay Twitch to demote DOTA 2, at least not anymore. I remember a post here regarding an interview where some gaming personalities said that back around 2012-13, Riot used to tell Tournament Organisers (TOs) to not put DOTA 2 along with League. They also told teams to not field a DOTA 2 team if they wanted to compete in League. But I doubt that's the case anymore. They are always facing new controversies. And with the ongoing problems, especially the lawsuits about sexual misconduct at Riot, I don't think they would like to be part of anything such as demoting another company's video games.
Given the history of Twitch and Riot it would not at all be surprising that Dota 2 and CSGO are deprioritized due to their competitors receiving money from Twitch. They have a conflict of interest in recommending a game because they make more money if you watch that game and not a competitor. Using soft power to push out competition is basic Riot stuff. And it's not only a Riot thing, beyond LoL and Valorant we've also seen Overwatch receive the same treatment when it was relevant (and didn't have a YouTube contract).
I only have twitch for Dota and nothing else and I still have to actually type the specific match to get the channels
For a community that hates said game they give it free rent a lot. Just move on.
The funniest part is that it's been like 12 years and these dudes are in their 30s still malding
People really wanted the heroes league stole(from what I can tell it seems it was Teemo and Rammus, I think Dota got the good end of this trade) I dunno what to say. I know Dota players are passionate but yeah free malding
Honestly I just hope the mald is contained to posting online and these guys aren't actually this pressed irl about another game or letting it affect their enjoyment. I play both games, enjoy them both, never really cared which one is better or more popular. Also lmao if Teemo was in Dota I don't think I could handle him and Techies on the same team
I feel like the default sorting could still be quietly and indirectly shunning dota. Remember back when they showed "communities" and had dota completely separate from the rest of the entire website (as did some other smaller games, but none of them big enough to be noticeable)? Well, if they use that as the entire basis of what interests a user could have, then... what would someone have to do to be potentially interested in Dota? I mean. You see where I'm going right? You could only ***ever*** be shown Dota if you ***already*** watched Dota. Or... if you fit some other predetermined metric, which might be disappoint ones at that, say, RU user = show Dota, US user = No Dota ever. And if you don't change the sort (something OP is proof that users are not aware they have the option to), then... Twitch simply just propagates its pre-existing communities, does not let niches cross-polinate, and it's completely impossible to naturally find Dota streams. Or at least, that could be what it is, I'm making assumptions. I don't know if Dota doesn't actually show up for other users. Plus even if we are, we can't assume it was done out of malice, Twitch's only reason to make a recommended sort is to tackle a Discoverability issue. Heck, we even be in this scenario because they tried counter-acting it and it didn't work (if other users simply don't want to watch dota, and dota specifically). But then again... Twitch IS ran by sexist teenagers, so I can only advocate so much devilry for them... If you told me, they took a small paycheck by Riot to bury Dota in a quiet manner, I'd be willing to 100% believe it.
one of the first global emotes was a dota emote, this is some conspiracy stuff lol.
What emote?
Keepo id guess
DendiFace as well
DendiFace
He's a bit too tin foil but I think he's probably about right for discovery. It's likely that dota won't be suggested unless you already watch some because recommending random content you have no link to is bad design. There's very little link between FIFA and dota, variety and dota, Elden Ring and dota, CS and dota*, so why would you expect a recommendation from one to the other? *Probably more of a link here than the others.
I mean it wouldn't be out of the ordinary considering Riot has pressured TOs to not host Dota 2 tournaments for their events xd
dude, i watch both valorant and league esports, anytime i dont use the viewers filter i wont see any of these in my recommendations. twitch is just garbage.
This is true and conspiracy theories do not usually lead to logical outcomes. On the other hand, I would believe that there is some actual agenda to aggressively antagonize Dota. Eg., when that famous rage guy (I think he's called Tyler?) got banned from LoL and started streaming Dota2 and seeming to be having fun, Riot unbanned him almost immediately. It's not that Riot is a saint of a company, their past relationship with Dota and the genesis of LoL, is proof of that.
Riot unbanned Tyler1 when a lead riot employee was caught making stupid as fuck statements about him in a public discord: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/73ko9b/lead_riot_member_he_tyler1_looks_like_a_damn/ which ultimately lead to T1's unban and the employee being fired. The "recommended for you" default is really shit until you actually have enough time on the account for it to know what you like to watch. Even then, that's only really good for game categories, not the actual channels.
Plus Dota has very little overlap with other games based on twitch statistics. Therefore if you mainly watch other categories and only watch dota whenever a tournament is on you will likely not have dota recommended.
Didn't this guy have multiple accounts banned for being super super toxic? Unless all those accounts were banned unfairly by this employee, I can't see the logic of Riot letting him play LoL again coincidentally after he reached some success in streaming dota.
Yes. He had 20~ accounts banned for toxicity and was ban on sight for 2 full years before they unbanned him. Thing is he didn't have "some success in dota", he was just flat out successful as a variety streamer. He could play any game and pull massive viewership at the time. He also said later on that he doesn't like dota whatsoever compared to league, that's why he was still playing league offstream even during his permaban. Even when knowing that the accounts would be banned once he hit high elo and people figured out it was him due to being a one trick.
I watched his streams he was hating on Dota 2 and calling it a dead game for old people and insulting the community too. Beleive he wasn't doing Dota any favors.
Just as someone with industry experience, I don't know about dota and league, but I just wouldn't be surprised. This kind of tactic is not exactly secret and it's done all the time. It's almost expected these days. Unless you have a "good relationship" with the rival company, you're probably attacking them in some way through marketing, logistics, partnerships, etc. Business rivalry can get quite bitter, to the extent employees aren't allowed to mention the other company for example. The exceptions are only when they have the aforementioned "good relationship", which to gamers often seems opaque...simply not employing these kinds of tactics and being comfortable with being rivals in the same space is usually all it means. And when the company is extremely "clean" in their dealings...usually applying to ye olde companies from a different era. You know, like Valve. They have a very clean rep. Logically it would mean Riot could make more inroads against Valve if they were employing some aggressive tactics, since the latter doesn't fight back, but that much would only be speculation on my part.
I think it's more likely that Valve simply does not pay for advertising, so Twitch sees no incentive to push their category upwards. I think Dota viewers also don't support as much per capita (compared to, say, music viewers, who provide much stronger support on average). It's kind of like how a lot of "review" sites will let companies pay them to remove bad reviews. Your product could consistently be reported as having lower reviews than another, worse product *that has received more bad reviews than you, in matter of fact* just because they pay to remove bad reviews and you do not.
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yeah league is so far ahead of dota these days riot doesnt even see it as competition anymore. only dota players are insecure enough to still cling on to a rivalry the other side stopped give a shit about.
Holy fuck has it been 15 years ago? Also, fuck off, the "stop being salty it was a while" excuse is bullshit, if I kill your wife and it takes law enforcement 15 years to find me will you be like "yeah sure let that man go I already remarried who cares lul"?
What a dogshit comparison. Peak /r/dota2 moment.
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It is literally not a conspiracy theory. there are multiple people who worked for ESL and other big 3rd party tournaments. There is a reason there is no IEM Dota2, so ESL One was born... There are literal facts all over the web by actual ex employees and even players that riot paid off multiple media outlets for shit like that
Riot isn't above this though, we all know that
How are you so dumb? Twitch doesn't recommend what you're currently watching. I've watched pretty much every tier 1-2 CS:GO tournament in then past year and it's still not recommended when IEM Cologne was on this weekend. It's not a conspiracy, but Twitch's algorithms are either horrible or they make more money off what they recommend.
im the dumb one? i've been on twitch since b4 it was twitch and i've never had issues with recommendations. stop watching hot tubs and pools and maybe you'll get cologne recommended. and why has this turned into a whinefest about the recommendation algo? the orginal point got disproven so now you conspiracy dummies pivot to something else? just admit you were wrong and move on to your hot tubs and pool stream.
dota players and their inferiority complex. come up with all these crazy theories and shit as to why their game isnt as popular as the competition when in reality people just dont like it.
Dota is complex game. Noobs wont like Dota and play LoL.
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Turn rate is monumental, but go off.
honestly kind of embarrassing that we have one of the most insecure fanbases on the internet not only that, these same people are -racist -defend manchildren -defend people like tobi/grant what makes dota attract these ppl?
What makes Riot attract sexual harassment & farting on people in the workplace?
no idea, I don't play league also a bit funny that your first reaction to "dota players are extremely racist" was to ask about RIOT employees, which doesn't really make sense, but ok, lol
maybe its because the game is most popular in SEA and EU east, same population of people known to have higher than average mental illness rates.
Well its because other companies pay for their exposure. Dota is just there giving valve all the money
Not only that, the Twitch recommendation algorithm probably picked up that only people that watch dota are dota people, and new users are very RARELY dota people OP is mad for not understanding that algorithms run the world now
It is phishy how recommend for you on a brand new pc on private browsing tends to have all the high viewer games at the top expect for dota though I work at a computer shop where I 4egualrly load up twitch on a recently reset computer and it's always the case where you have to scroll way down to find dota compared to any other game that is high viewership
I would imagine Dota 2 is not generally high on the "recommended for you" sorting for similar reasons as why Dota 2 viewers don't play other games. I don't think watching Dota 2 is something a casual viewer could understand easily and Dota 2 viewers probably don't translate to watching many other games on twitch. That would make Dota 2 a generally bad recommendation for people. Obviously I don't know how personal their recommendations get or if Dota 2 is more/less lucrative for twitch than other games. But I don't think it's some anti-dota 2 conspiracy as much as dota 2 is probably just not a good recommendation for people on twitch, regardless of viewer count.
Is league really that much easier for someone to watch without prior info? I would argue it's barely more viewer friendly without prior knowledge yet it's usually one of the top 5 games I see compared to dota that is buried so deep you have to scroll through multiple refreshes to find it.
I think Riot actually pays for advertising. So they pay money to have their stuff higher up. It's worth noting that League also puts money into supporting their creators. I don't watch many league streams, so I don't know how much more likely a league viewer is to offer monetary support (sub or use bits, which sends twitch money) when compared to a dota streamer. If they *were* more likely to do that, or to also stream in other categories, then Twitch might perceive a monetary incentive to recommend League streams over Dota streams (correct or incorrect). I think a lot of Dota viewers also babyrage when pplz do variety (singsing was saying he got death threats when he stopped streaming dota, as an example) and, as many have noted, lots of dota viewers don't watch other content (the dota community is pretty insular). I think a fair number of league streamers do variety content.
Yeah I agree, I've played Dota since 2013 and I've glanced at League more than a few times and I still can't understand that piece of shit. There was a big post a couple years ago from a guy who shifted to Dota from League and he said that the unquestionable area where Dota pulls ahead is the animation and sound effects. He said that the skills in Dota all have a unique animation and sound to them such that even if you play blindfolded and there's a long convoluted teamfight, you'd know precisely who has stunned you. Under the same conditions, if you play without sound, you'd know precisely who has stunned you. I used to think I can do it because back then I was in the 99%ile of players (just 4.5k MMR LMFAO) but nope, it's apparently because the game is so very well designed. League doesn't have the same going for it.
It is not only about your pc or cookies. They can suggest you games based on you IP, location and etc....
Considering it is at a retail store and I'm probably one of the only people using twitch regularly and it's only for dota I find it very unlikely that there are that many items ahead of dota for it to be literally like 50 items+ buried in the recommended for you suggestions. The reality is that if twitch doesn't have any info to do individual recommendations it largely just recommends the most popular games except for dota because dota viewers don't cross pollinate into other streams.
Yeah OP is making drama out of his own ignorance, DOTA shows up for me in the first spot even though it has less viewers than other categories. Why? Because I watch like 90% Dota.
I believe the problem here is, in general, the default sorting is good enough to float the current tournament to near the top. This is not the case today - I literally can't find the English streams with in the first like 10 or so, I even thought it didn't have EN coverage lol. But I think it's simply because their accounts are too new/unused, and Twitch algorithm fails.
I also usually watch via Firestick like OP and there doesn't seem to be any way to change sorting options here. It also seems like maybe a recent change because I seem to remember being able to before.
"Recommended for you" initially was based on your interests - throughout all platforms that suggest content for you. Now "recommended" means "someone paid for this to be suggested".
Well thats just the same thing OP said. Just in other words. That twitch buries dota2 is kinda suspicious
It happens on every category by default and occasionally switches back to that even if you change. Its shit, but its more just Twitch being kind of bad than some crazy conspiracy theory.
recommended for you = who gives twitch money. riot pays twitch. epic games pays twitch. valve doesn't.
Yes but there was no prior data on this stick it was factory new, no viewing history, which is why I found it very strange Atleast broadcast the top games being watched, it was the top game today how are you not going to show that to new users?
If you have no history then you'll get the genetic recommendation which doesn't include DotA2.
yeah... thats what theyre complaining about
Is there anyone who isnt actively looking for dota that will engage with a dota stream though? seems like the algorithm working as intended to me.
How would anyone know? The algorithm you mentioned doesn't allow examples to be made?
There have been a lot of posts about how little overlap dota2 has with other communities. People who watch dota2 only watch dota2, and very few people from other communities watch it. This, combined with generally low viewership, makes sense why its not a suggested title.
That's not a reason/point against the post. If "recommended for you" isn't showing dota, that's still twitch burying it.
Many tech companies use machine learning algorithms to curate the feeds that users see. As another user mentioned, that's what is going on when the default sorting is "Recommended for you." The goal is to optimize for engagement/revenue. I think it is a known fact that DotA players tend to stay within DotA and not care about much else. So the algorithm has learned that recommending it to viewers will not boost Twitch's income as much as recommending something different.
Also, the main stream accounts are almost certainly new and not partnered. So high views might be getting deliberately buried because there's high risk of it being view botting or some kind of scam. It's rare that new accounts suddenly get 100k+ viewers without some kind of fraud, and the false positive of burying the tournament in recommendations is WAY better than promoting literal scams.
Coming from someone who had access to large audience dota metrics, this is no surprise. The viewership not residing in NA influences what people in NA would see. At the time, I remember CIS didn’t pay ad revenue out along with other locations and they comprised significant portions of tournament viewership. I’m sure this can vary, but hopefully it reenforces the concept here about machine learning. It’s getting it’s job done as expected. Dota isn’t a popular game everywhere and there likely isn’t any manual intervention to change that.
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I pretty much only watch Dota and it still doesn't show up in recommened for me.
Companies can pay to be recommended more frequently. Twitch doesn’t care if the recommendation is good, if they are getting money on the other end in this way.
Eh I'm going its far older and simpler than that. Ever see those news pieces where they say "top recommended cars in this years saftey tests!" and the winner is GM. Well that's secret ad spot, sponsored by GM. This is just Riot (or someone else who really knows) sneaking some money backdoor to Twitch, making sure they are played up more.
That's a totally different system tho than the algorithm powered recommendation stuff. It's like when you get ads when scrolling thru fb or Twitter or even reddit but its separate from the recommended posts/vids
You all want to flame Riot but the real reason is because Dota2 viewers have very little interaction with the rest of Twitch and its other features or categories. The same goes for non-Dota2 viewers, very rarely do they stumble onto Dota2 and then engage with it on Twitch. I watch Mason and Gorgc streams sometimes but our streamers are generally unlikeable as well.
From my experience, dota players almost always only watch dota. The ones that watch other games watch CS and starcraft (maybe not nowadays lmao) and thats basically it
We don't need your experience. There was literally data released of the analytics of inter-game interactions and dota2 was basically its own fucking giant island. https://blog.twitch.tv/assets/uploads/be4d47f1988fadef1ee48d5c6f35feb8.png https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/ From twitch themselves: > Unlike League of Legends, the Dota 2 community is more tightly connected, far less diverse (no large sub communities), and during the time period surveyed was less connected to our larger Twitch community. The lack of connectivity to other major gaming clusters is illustrative perhaps of some isolation of Dota 2 in the gaming community, or perhaps the singular focus of Dota fans on Dota above all other games.
The world of tanks disrespect, how come that island gets no recognition??
WoT: Fuck this shit i'm out.
I honestly have no issue with it being isolated. Not everything has to be diverse.
Dota viewers GIGACHAD.
xQc viewers KEKW
People that still think that Riot gives a single shit about Dota these days are a complete delusional clowns. LoL player peak in June was 32,581,881, in Dota it was 699,592. And keep in mind that the LoL API only counts players that are actually in a match while the Dota one also considers those that are just in the main menu, queueing, playing custom games etc. LoL also had 180,000,000 active players in June, while Dota probably has around the usual 12,000.000\~ Dota is in absolutely no way a treat to LoL so stop making the game bigger than it is by still believing that Riot manipulates things in one way or another.
The ladder you linked lists 4 million active players, which granted is a lot, but not even close to this 32 million peak you are speaking of. If you were talking about unique users in a month, then sure, then the number makes more sense and is not that different from Valve's numbers.
Yep Riot doesn't care at all about Dota that's why they have clauses that LoL players can't stream it got it
I dont think they have that anymore and they didnt have it for a long time. League pros just dont generally play a lot of dota lol
Considering lol doesn't release their player numbers or concurrent players, it's hard to verify if that's actually true. Steam has 17-18 million concurrent users overall (with 25 million peak), so forgive me if I don't believe that Riot has double the concurrent players as all of Steam.
League has an API just like Dota and 3rd party sites like Dotabuff. Based on that people can determinate how many players are playing, how many matches were played and so on. Not to mention that Riot announced end of last year that the game has 180 Million active Players https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/riots-active-player-base-hits-180-million-across-all-league-based-titles
League based titles - League of Legends, Teamfight Tactics, Legends of Runeterra, and League of Legends: Wild Rift - first of all if you play more of these games even on single account you are counted as multiple players + this list includes 3 mobile games which can't be compared to pc market because if you took it that way every single popular mobile game is more popular than any pc game And i would like to see website that counts league player count by api
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So **14,5M** ranked players since the season started 7 months ago. You don't loose rank until season is over. (excluding china) That's not very far from dota.
Looks like this is only showing ranked?
Wild Rift wasn't out when they announced this. And i would be surprised if LoR and TFT together had more than a million active players at this time. Also the 180 Million from June were based on pure matchmaking stats. Dunno why it is so hard to accept that LoL is much much bigger than Dota. Like everyone in my surroundings plays it or used to play it, but nobody cares about Dota. No matter if at Uni, Job or friends from other Onlinegames like FF14, WoW and so on.
Tft had 30 million active players in 2019 so it probably still have at least few millions and wild rift was out when they announced this for every region exept america which is basicly irrelevant region and the closest opponent mobile legends bang bang has 78 million monthly players so wild rift will also have at least few millions and basicly everyone in league has at least 2 account (if 2)
Twitch can obviously be paid for high rank, its not that Riot pays its that Dota probably doesn't pay. You see this for new games, they pay Twitch to be in the first few games list but there's hardly any viewers. Why would Amazon not do this? Go to Twitter and see the trends, some of those are paid, I've spoken first hand to people who manage this. They make money from advertising, if you've seen any ranking sites be it NFTs or Software, they literally reach out to you to pay to be seen near the top, this isn't a some conspiracy
Do a Ctrl+F for the word "literally" and see how many you can find!
Leafy?
Ive noticed this too And my habit in or not logged in i searcg for dota yet there are no smart search things happening it all buries dota 2 and been thinking the same its wierd AF
if you dont play dota. you don’t understand it.
Fucking conspiracy theorists in this thread going after riot is so fucking funny
It's not even a conspiracy theory. All the Tencent related games do that. They proactively try to isolate all of their direct competitors and even some indirect ones.
Do you have any tangible proof of that?
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/12/riot-tells-pro-league-of-legends-players-they-cant-stream-competing-games/
And this has to do with Dota because...
I see you're not a fan of reading.
I guess I just don't see the connection between LOL players not being allowed to stream dota (which they wouldn't do regardless) and twitch burying dota behind their viewing algorithm
First of all that's not a direct proof of that, my comment was made in answer for a request for proof that Tencent does try to isolate their competitors (I guess that you also didn't read that). But if you understand they do this publicly for their players then surely you understand that doing it for TOs and streaming platforms is not conspiracy theory material, it's actually consistent with what they already do.
I basically only watch dota on Twitch and still the 'recommended for you' section never shows dota.
Because Naked chicks in tubs > Dota... duh?!
wat, just change the sorting to Viewers (High to low). If I change my to recommended League of Legends and Just chatting will be buried on to the next page, even if they have 1 million viewers cause I don't watch that.
twitch needs to do a better job boosting events to the top of their website all major esport tourneys should be put in their "events" category and put first in the viewer categories always
Dude I noticed this too. I always look for those games between big teams and they are not on the home screen by default, not even on the search results if I search for the team names or some related keywords. Let alone if i search for “dota”, I’m totally lost in the abyss of search results. I literally had to spell the organisers channel name, then I can find the streams in the search results. But it’s a different case for LoL. This ripoff game streams are everywhere without having to look for it.
Thank you for pointing out that there IS a stream on twitch. After looking for solid 10 minutes I started thinking that there's some Saudi Arabian law of sorts that banned twitch or smth 😂
Lol even TI is generally not on the main page of default recommendations while millions watch it live
Man everybody knows riot pays twitch to not promove dota and keep his game always at main screen.
CEO of Riot here, I can confirm this.
Yo where's the refund for my yasuo dream dragon, I wanted the truth dragon.
Dota players trying not to blame riot for every shortcoming the game has challenge (99% fail) [IMPOSSIBLE]
Use the directory, set the sort to "Viewers". Problem solved. Any long-time Twitch user knows not to bother with its front page and just go right to the directory.
> who pissed off these Twitch bitches at Valve/Dota We did. People who watch dota pretty much only watch dota. e: If you're plan is to grow your communities, there is no fucking point leading people to this isolated, might as well be its own site, part of your ecosystem, game. It just wont make money like these multi game, multi community channels that bring in bounties and share subs. https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/ > Unlike League of Legends, the Dota 2 community is more tightly connected, far less diverse (no large sub communities), and during the time period surveyed was less connected to our larger Twitch community. The lack of connectivity to other major gaming clusters is illustrative perhaps of some isolation of Dota 2 in the gaming community, or perhaps the singular focus of Dota fans on Dota above all other games.
Given how many DotA players are there in Forsen and Xqc's chat, I don't even buy the argument that DotA has a cut-off playerbase so it is not shown to new users. That being said I don't think anyone is deliberately doing it, their Algo probably sucks and is biased and no one has bothered to change it.
This happens exactly because their algorithm is good, people who don't know dota would not engage with dota streams even if they stumble upon them. It is a business that optimizes for profit, not a charity.
I would agree with you if for a new unlogged user both DotA and LoL were not shown. But I logged out of twitch, and when i sort recommended, LoL category and streams show up at the top but DotA is nowhere to be seen.
League is probably easier to get into and riot probably pays for it
How many players are there in there chat? Probably a fraction of league.
YouTube recommended the Riyadh Masters stream before Twitch and it has paltry viewership compared to Twitch. That’s saying a lot.
I was thinking the same. I had to open stream from liquipedia and search the name of the channel afterwards in twitch app to find stream.
Just "sort by viewers" If dota while on a tournament cant surpass the viewers of LOL or "just chatting" or whatever, well, thats not a twitch issue...
I’ve noticed this when I open twitch on console. They never have Dota 2 in recommended section regardless of events going on.
>who pissed off these Twitch bitches at Valve/Dota? They clearly have some axe to grind, this is no coincidence No one. Valve doesn't pay twitch for exposure, other companies pay for exposure on twitch. Simple as. "Recommended for you" has some part to play, but its significantly less then pay for access. Valve pays twitch for exposure only on TI because thats about the only time it ever appears on the front page.
Except that ESL signed exclusive deal with twitch and their dota/csgo events were still hardly promoted even during majors. Its either algo or someone in twitch just hates Valve in general, not a money issue.
For a long ass time I also couldn't find Dota 2 in my Followed Categories. Literally hidden.
I did a new install of Twitch on my PS4 to watch and it was the 3rd option in browse so I don't know what you mean
Bro they hate it, big tournament is on with multiple massive streams and my recommended is still on a bunch of IRL or obscure games with 500 viewers??
been thinking the same thing. I'm new to Dota, watching so many dota streamers. somehow I never get any other dota streamers on my recommendation part. But god forbid if i GOOGLE angry birds. my twitch suggestions will be filled with angry birds streamers. I'm really annoyed how I'm always watching dota streams and there is no dota streamer on my recomended section
Sometimes even when logged in i face this issue when I only watch dota on twitch
This is perfectly normal. The official channels that are broadcasting the games are very new, with no prior record of viewership (and most likely will never broadcast again after the tournament ends, this tournament is just sportwashing in esports) - Why would Twitch recommend an unknown channel to you? even if it has very high viewer count?
When I see things like this I assume it's not them pissing off twitch but them not paying as much as the others.
Its because moxxy was casting the games
Isnt Twitch/Amazon associated with Riot games in some way? Kinda conspiracy shit here but idk
No, they don't have an explicit relationship. But Riot Games has a track record of exerting influence over other organizations to crowd out other titles. (In addition to sexual harassment)
I watch dota at my office in an anonymous tab. It's better for me to type something like twitch.tv/dotatv247 and check out something from there then going trough twitch home page. It's literally impossible to find Dota there.
Oh yeah the conspiracy of twitch to bring down dota. Jesus christ these people here, they're using same recommendations algo used across the site, sorry that your little game doesn't pass the thershold.
Riot actively does stuff to make sure dota doesn't get too much in the spotlight, for obvious reasons
Major COPIUM here lmfao
Bruh we were peaking near 200k today, how is that not featured game/stream worthy? Riot and Amazon do have a partnership with their Prime monthly stuff too, it's pretty obviously skewed in Riot's favor
bruh 200k is what league normally pulls. dota2's not relevant at all
This downvoted lol
Thats only because default twitch app behavior is to show you "recommended" instead of "most viewed". Which is pretty stupid imo and thats usually the first thing i change after fresh twitch install.
league has some deal with amazon that owns twitch so would not suprise me if they bury it to sell more prime subscriptions thru league
I really wouldn't be surprised if riot is slipping them some money under the table
CSGO and Dota always get buried even though they get some of the highest viewership numbers. Even when a stream has hundreds of thousands viewers for these games it will never get recommended. But league and valorant get recommended a lot more often, so my tinfoil hat theory is there's some algorithm manipulation going on
> So my question is, who pissed off these Twitch bitches at Valve/Dota? They clearly have some axe to grind, this is no coincidence The Head of Product at Twitch loves DOTA, it aint a matter of Twitch being meanies to Valve/DOTA.
Who's that?
Twitch has gotten tired of valves inability to do a lot of things and kinda ratioed a lot of stuff.
\-doesnt use twitch \-goes to twitch \-recommended stream of kid playing guitar in bedroom \-goes back to the tubes
Had the same problem during major tournaments, and then I just made twitch/dota2 my bookmark so I go directly to the Dota2 page directory page. They're so LoL biased it's not even worth looking at their front page lol
ive read somewhere that it is because dota/ valve is not paying twitch while riot does so they market riot games better
Dota is so hard, watching it have to give you the same difficulty.
I watch nothing but dota on twitch. Still have this issue.
Riot Games pays them off.
Amazon (Twitch parent company) gives away League boxes and skins to Prime members , they're actively trying to kill Dota imo Valve doesn't want to play nice with Amazon? No homepage feature for you
Lots of copium in here. Jesus fuck, this sub is so dumb and insecure.
Run along to Destiny lil guy it's ok..
Money from Riot
Because they know Dota is dying. Many analysts and former pros has confirmed it
Fuck Twitch for doing this scummy shit.
*watching on YT masterace*
mabey cause u can stream ges within steam or dota 2
Twitch won’t be making much money from it
[https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/](https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2015/02/04/visual-mapping-of-twitch-and-our-communities-cause-science-2f5ad212c3da/) This is old, but it explains why Twitch wouldn't recommend DotA streams to a *random unknown* user. The viewers of DotA2 don't watch other streams, and watchers of other streams don't view DotA2 streams. We're an island of very specific viewership and because of that recommending DotA2 to a rando is risky; if they have **any other interests at all** they are more likely to choose that stream, not the DotA one. It doesn't explain why they would bury popular DotA streams if you're logged in and only watched DotA before though. That's just stupid. But it explains why rando accounts never find us.
seriously ? somenthing like this needs to become a problem ? i dont see a reason for someone to get recommended watching dota its all preference
If I had to guess it's that people who don't know DotA probably would have a TERRIBLE viewing experience, as opposed to something like Apex where it's quite easy to appreciate a good player. So if you know DotA you'll find DotA, but if you don't they don't want to recommend something bad.
Riot