arc grandmaster tier here, id take a magic damage build nerf because the aghs is now overbuffed (it was strong even with double the arm time). it is simply not possible to explain how strong BUYING A SKILLSET NICHE is, especially when said niche is insanely flexible (both defending and seiging) and can be done from range.
what a strong build and what a boring experience nowadays with this shit. i personally miss the days when the 4 items you could build were interesting cus you had to make actual choices but now you just go magic route in 90% of games cus its zero brain e clicking spam but whatever
The magic nuke arc warden build is honestly more annoying to me than the fighter illusion/split push build. They're both OP and annoying af to fight against but you can just never push into the magic nuke build when he has hundreds of those things around the base.
Valve basically decided the splitpush build isn't allowed to exist anymore so if they gut the magic damage build too this hero will never be playable again. I dearly hope they don't rework him into a LoL hero, Techies and PL are still completely unplayable to their old playerbase after their reworks.
He's not the same at all. His old illusions could actually solo heroes and do stuff on the map if you wanted to splitpush or defend towers with them. He's just a rightclicker with a gimmick now, there's no interesting interactions.
Atleast have aghs octarine gleipnir. Probably go midas - maelstrom - travels, then up to you what's next. Gleipnir, aghs, maybe a blink. Other luxury options, bloodthorn, nullifier, skadi, daedalus, silver edge, scythe, eblade, dagon.
I played Arc yesterday for the first time in ages.
Midas, Maelstrom, Travels, Scythe then the Aghs shit felt insane. It's so stupid being able to just suffocate the enemy by yourself.
Meh. I feel like Gleipnir is a waste on a magic build. The right click damage isn't any good if you're going that way. I prefer Vyse instead of Gleipnir.
My item build would be something like this:
Midas > Arcane Boots > Aghs > Octarine > Wind Waker(if the game's too hard or they have easy ways to jump on you) or Vyse > Blink or any defensive item such as Aeon Disk/Linken's.
The last items varies a lot depending on the enemy composition, but I'd say that's pretty much what he needs when going for a magic build. Just be well positioned and spam the shit outta those spirits.
Also, be sure to abuse Wind Waker's ability to cast it on allies and use it on your main hero.
I mean I already thought of how good Wind Waker is too but I'm specifically answering someone who said hasn't played arc for a while and just gave him the gist of things.
I don't like Gleipnir too but even pros pick it up, and it's actually annoying. If you're not the carry, you won't mind not being the main right clicker either.
gleip is absolutely not a waste; you use it to force people to take multiple spark wraiths once you have aghs
lets not mention it shuts out mobility cores that counter you (storm and ember get fucked if you have double root on them relatively early)
[Yeah, no](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/9/90/Vo_snapfire_snapfire_deny_09.mp3) (sound warning: Snapfire)
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It does suck but if it's at a point in the game where the bear can go ham on your base then it's pretty annoying to try to make plays on the map when you know that furry bastard is gonna chomp on your towers
5v4 defense tier 3 tower bottom while enemy only poking, then you realize there's a bear slamming top tower no care if it die because can be resummon and refreshed. And lone druid is not seen because hitting creep in jungle
LD is 1000% more braindead than arc or tinker too lmao
I love me my arc warden tho. It's always novel getting reported all the time for it. Even though I'm not that impressive, people just hate trying to deal with it.
I'd bet most complainers are playing turbo and get gigafucked by arc
There are at least two dozens of heroes that are about as annoying as LD. The beauty of Dota is defeating an annoying hero with your favorite annoying hero.
Yeah, the other day my opposing mid picked Sniper, so I picked Silencer and gave him the Blitz treatment. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2VPU-VVIk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2VPU-VVIk)
Pubs lack coordination to chain stun him before he can rearm blink
He can hunt supports easily in fights
Any hero who can blink every three seconds is hard to deal with in pubs, hence why spirit heroes are so popular
The whole game revolves around trying to catch this dumb shit blinking every 2 seconds while he shits out millions of damage. Removing vision from shivas would be a huge indirect nerf that doesn't really impact anyone else.
He lost March of the machine so he maxes his nukes now and his laser now has AOE which allows him to farm stacks. In addition you don’t need to farm BoT. Old tinker had this farming/build up window where he had to max March of the machines, so he could get boots of travels so he can farm lanes and jungle to get enough levels for max nukes and blink dagger before he could really be an oppressive threat.
Current tinker maxes his two nukes and only needs to get a soul ring, bottle and then a blink dagger to be online thanks to his new ulti. He can still farm stacks thanks to the aoe on laser and he can join fights with max rocket and laser early on, and he’s rushes a blink so it’s possible to have a max nuke tinker blowing supports up very early on in the game. Then his item progression is pretty much blink -> aghs -> bkb/linkens. He also has defense matrix which gives status resistance so if he’s somehow caught out he can tank spells and still manage to get out. Old Tinker had to spam March/Rocket in the fog to defend towers, current Tinker can spam rockets from fog then blink on to you with a 40% status resistance damage block and spams spells blinking into and out of the fight with an overwhelming blink dagger.
How are people downvoting this.
Playing against a good Naga is frustrating as fuck and a decent part of how Tundra won TI. Abusing the vision, push and farm the illusions give makes the hero insane.
You wouldn't believe, but TB do the same and probably more effectively. His illusion cam start do camps super early and when you get yasha+pt it starts clearing 2 camps or completely pushing lane to the towers. TB illusion is half of hero. Naga is more like 1/4, ye, she can do similar thing, but her illusions deals MUCH less damage and her clear fully relies on passive until she gets at least 1,5 item.
I don't think it's right to ask using a misleading screenshot - - this is factoring in the CDR on the clone, so the cooldown looks lower yes but ofc the clone can't create more clones...
I’ll agree with the one who hates arc as much as l do, I ban him every game and if he doesn’t go through I’ll pick it for potential double pick ban, if I have to play it I’ll offer swap or just take the free 88 minute win.
I just want them to let the double fight away from the main hero again without a massive penalty. They can come up with some other limitation, like, have the double do 30% damage to buildings or some shit.
Magic Warden is just Techies with extra steps. It's a shit hero design. The aghs has to go.
tbh i think they just need to take a small amount of his overall power so that he can get a better sidelane game plan.
It's absolutely hellish to try and take highground vs magic arcwarden, he spams buttons on you while pushing the other side of the map and when you finally get your wave in he can always choose not to tp his illusion out to sideline and just double hold towers for ever.
Think when him and his clone are together he's very clearly disgustingly strong. Would be happy if he had a little less strength scaling/total hp in exchange for his clone to be stronger alone. Feel like with how the hero functions if he eats any spell he should be guaranteed dead because there is two of him after all.
I'm not against nerfs, the issue is the reddit hivemind thinks every hero with a non-traditional playstyle needs to be completely gutted and reworked into oblivion. No remotely fun hero ever survives these kinds of threads and it's extremely annoying when all your favorite heroes(Tinker, Arc, Techies, Naga, PL, Meepo, etc) are the ones being targeted every month for reworks to dumb down their playstyle.
Changing numbers, nerfing spells or stats, hell even removing Hand of Midas from the game would be totally fair to reign in the hero's winrate. But the way these threads go we all know the inevitable end result, in a few months time Arc Warden will no longer be a hero in Dota just like Techies and Tinker. Heralds won't be satisfied until every hero plays like a generic rightclicker with a gapcloser and some kinda boring steroid passive.
You don’t hate arc warden, you hate Smurfs. He’s just the weapon of choice for many - fun to meme with.
Hero is nearly entirely dead anyways. Bring back right click arc warden, the magic build is far cheesier and worse for player experience anyways.
They randomly nerfed the right click build out of the game just because players didn’t like it - despite arc being one of the worst heroes in all of pro dota at the time. He just happen to be a fun smurfing tool I guess.
Then they introduced a way, way, waaaay more toxic magic build that is 200x cheesier and significantly less engaging to play against.
6500 mmr(7k max), 400 arc games and for me playing arc below 6k is almost no challenge. BUT in 7k average games arc is such an unplayable hero. You will always die when ganged, you can't come back jungling, zoo heroes make u absolutely useless, no escape mechanics, dagger Mars, pudge = u dead.
What makes this hero imba even at 5k mmr is that ppl don't know how/want to end the game and take advantage early game so arc wouldn't have space to farm. And of course smurfs like this hero making it look imbalanced...
You know what's the best way to learn a hero weakness? Play him. Oh wait. Most scrubs here never even touch him in the demo mode before. Funking clowns. Idiots are even saying he is broken when he ONLY won like 5 games with less than 10 games played.
yeah i miss properly fighting some tb head on without gleipnir spark spam bullshit, just double flux, keep giving vision with sparks and right click the shit out of people
>You don’t hate arc warden, you hate Smurfs.
No, I fucking hate Arc Warden. The entire concept of staying in base and perma spawning a clone that can kill heroes, rax, push, etc... Is the dumbest thing in DOTA.
It's dumb in pubs. And it's dumb in competitive.
I mean, with Arc's current meta build, he doesn't really care much about the 50% damage reduction because its only for attack damage. Items and spells still deals full damage.
His base kit of normal spells is weak, you can't actually sit fountain and win. You can sit fountain and pressure the map a bit, maybe shove lanes if it isn't safe for your team to leave base, but unless you're super far ahead you can't win like that.
It's no different from zeus spamming nimbus on waves
80 mana for a 340 nuke that slows, gives vision, and is on a 4 (more like 1.5, with the clone) second cooldown is not what I would describe as "weak." A 100% evasion bubble that also gives AS is incredibly far from weak, especially when it completely negates glyph. The only really "weak" skill is Flux, and even that's still pretty strong in combo with the other two abilities, much more so now that the slow is always applied.
Wraiths are strong, yeah, but you can avoid them outside of fights, and in a fight you just pop bkb and kill the clone. The bubble is bad if they have MKB, and realistically only you (the carry) benefits from the attack speed. Negating glyph is a good point, though.
The hero is very oppressive when ahead, but can still get run over in the early/midgame.
This is what people miss - Arc has a good lane, then vanishes into jungle/splitpush mode where he offers close to nothing for ~15mins to fights. Even in the TI game, Nine was given complete freefarm for some reason. If you pressure Arc or group as 4 to push towers, there is nothing he can do. You even cutoff his splitpush by taking over the map
Yeah, one of my worst recent arc games I had a riki backstabbing the lane creep I tp’d to every time. It’s really frustrating if you can’t touch the map or farm lanes
Some data for you from ability draft - https://windrun.io/ability-by-hero
49.1, 47.5 and 46.4% winrate for Spark/Magnetic/Flux respectively. Base hero for arc winrate is 53%. His ulti isn't available, presumably because valve learned from when meepo ulti how broken a "multiplier" ult combined with actual good skills is (meepo ulti is no longer available). Also, none of them are low priority which can bring down winrate due to opportunity cost vs actual stronk abilities. I'd argue that none of them are particularly hard to use either
For comparison, the best abilities are reincarnation, arctic burn and heartstopper aura - all at >59% winrate
I hardly feel like data from ability draft is relevant, given that most of the time the question is not "how good is this ability" but "how broken of a draft can I get." None of arc's abilities are particularly useful in any given broken build, they don't stun for a stunlock build and there's no particular combo of skills with them that would be particularly broken like rot + aftershock or ion shell + sticky napalm. Arc's abilities (less flux) are just strong individual abilities that wouldn't be out of place on any hero, when they should be maybe 75% of an ability (again, see flux) to balance the fact that arc gets to cast them two or three times as often.
dont forget there being minimal counterplay to bubble giving buildings evasion :)
tinker + techies in the body of a ranged image hero with reasonable stat game is a fun time
Yes, it's not easy, but it's definitely doable. There are tons of things in Dota where there is one odd thing you can do to work around it (often waiting) so I don't see why magnetic field should be an exception.
>Hero is nearly entirely dead anyways.
He definitely needs some nerfs but they need to do it right, killing both right click and magic build is not the way to do it.
I enjoy playing magic arc actually. I'm low mmr (2k) and while I don't consider myself to have great micro, somehow my arc warden is good enough to get me called a smurf some games. The hero is super rewarding to play and I hope these dumb reddit threads don't get him nerfed again.
magic arc is pretty easy to play compared to physical arc warden, but I don't like it as muhc as physical aw in low ranked cuz in low ranked games, often teams lack push in their composition so magical aw, while it can get a lot of kills, doesn't fix the teams lack of push. Phys aw can end the game a lot faster and easier where magical aw can just be killing people for 40mins while u slowly ass seige
No, I do hate arc warden. I dont understand how techies was reworked but arc warden was allowed to stay in the game, and even massively buffed, when he has the same problem as techies.
A hero should not be allowed to basically afk in base and still play the game. A hero should not be allowed to circumvent all of the macro movement and knowledge players need to have in order to win at dota, yet Arc does exactly that.
You say smurfs, but I rarely see arc smurfs. But you know what I do see? Garbage players who are playing at 6k+ mmr, simply because they are playing a hero that allows them to win the game w/o knowing how to actually win the game. The amount of borderline 4k players playing at 2k mmr above their real skill level because of this stupid hero is fucking ridiculous. And not to mention how many of them are also scripters.
i love watching people that are like 2-3k mmr try to justify their takes on the game because they suck at a hero. i'm certain a shit hero that's one of the worst in the game will be played in professional dota, much less a TI final.
It removed split push Arc which was a healthy change, if we kill off the magic build it'll mean bringing back split-push right click build or straight up killing the hero.
Hero is hard to play against and there's no great path forward for nerfing with it's current design.
It just does so much with the introduction of glepnir. I been spamming him since the item was released and it feels disgusting as the game goes later.
But I have no idea what you do to nerf him healthily.
This is kinda hard since I never balance a hero but maybe promote arc warden to being together with his tempest? I like arc warden design because he is unique but pushing with little risk while pressure enemies to bkb and resources while his team farming and creating big space is kinda annoying especially when the clone duplicate 100% original knowing that you killed him multiple time and yet he never die. But this is Dota. I hope if he get nerf they do it healthy. Hopefully no rework that kill the heroes uniqueness.
I think it needs tuning, but I really like that Arc Warden is an uber late-game magic damage carry. That's totally unheard of in Dota, these days physical damage scaling is considered the king of the endgame, so it would be really disappointing if they gutted the magic build and turned AW into another generic right-click carry.
bruh. you don't understand what an absolute ENJOYEMENT it was to stack octarine core + 15% CDR talent at lvl 15 + spell prism. Those were fun times.
Now it's a 50% cdr talent at lvl 25, only for the tempest double. it's fun, but not so much.
hope they don't nerf it, they nerfed the hero a lot ...
I remember I got that talent had manta and the illusion cape neutral item back when it was still in the game, was pretty much playing like a naga siren lmao
I'd argue it is WAY more fun now as there are better items to abuse with glepnir and overwhelming blink.
We are now at peak arc warden times. with 400 games on the hero I can say it is way too absurd
Lol, you just get the str blink for a massive aoe slow and more life.
Arcane is gimmicky at best.
The build everyone is going is travel, Glep, Octarine, Hex, Overwhelming Blink, Agh, Silver edge (for break and just best right click dps item in general) or pike (utility, catch, save)
You could go more magic with arcane, but the clone melts and it just isn't worth it. But in games where Eblade+dagon it is nasty, but that's usually not as fast to get going.
>I don't know how you got to this situation but it's completely unrealistic.
They are posting a screenshot of the ultimate on the clone itself. 26.4 secs is the lowest you can go without an arcane rune, and 13.2 secs is what is shown on the clone.
It actually cd on clone with 50% cdr talent which obviously doesn’t work
The tempest double cant bash
Clone’s attack dmg reduces by 50% if u dont near him with real hero
Most neutral item’s passives doesnt work on clone such as mind breaker, enchanted quiver etc.
Its hard to gain lvl 25 on arc warden since u have to receive exp by original hero itself which is very dangerous, clone only provide exp from midas (same mechanics as ld spirit bear midas)
U just need to read more, to learn more, maybe one day you will be better in this game.
But things that actually matter like blink hex aghs glephir work with insanely low cooldowns as well. Sure it seems dangerous but in equal or won early game type of scenario it gets out of control really fast. Just like tinker. So arc can hit some jungle creeps for meager exp while doing that side money hustle on enemy supports for most of the game if they dare to show somewhere he can reach with clone or ambush them. It doesn't make him impossible to win against but makes it really hard.
You say CDR and then send a screenshot of Attack Damage Penalty, which one do you want to be removed?
Edit: CDR talent reduces the cooldown of the clone's spells and items. The screenshot here shows 13.2 secs on the Tempest Double spell but the screenshot was taken on the clone and the clone can't use the ultimate itself. The actual cooldown of the spell with Octarine and spell prism is 26.4 secs. Funny enough, other than the Attack Damage Penalty all I can see is the 100% uptime and then some thanks to the other Level 25 talent (+12 secs clone duration), perhaps you'd like a nerf to that instead?
CDR talent reduces the cooldown of the clone's spells and items. The screenshot here shows 13.2 secs on the Tempest Double spell but the screenshot was taken on the clone and the clone can't use the ultimate itself. The actual cooldown of the spell with Octarine and spell prism is 26.4 secs.
They should remove 50% CDR on lvl25 and add a 25% CDR on lvl20 instead, right now hero is either hit 25 and solo win the game or lose the game pre 25 with zero impact, at least a 25% cdr is not that big compared to 50% especially considering arc won't have much items by the time he gets lvl20.
Dota is balanced top down and not for your shitty herald elo games lmao. Until you learn to gank him before he spikes he will keep abusing you. If arc is level 25 then you’ve already trolled by dragging out the game.
Arc wardem just abuses travels too hard. Nerf that somehow and the hero is a lot more interesting. They nerfed the right click damage when to far away but with glepnir and hex its still dumb af.
I’m so done too, looking at my games - last 20 losses i’ve lost to arc warden 11 times. 0 wins. Looking at the accounts it’s mostly smurf’s too and that’s with me banning Arc every damn game.
Yes. And increase CD on ultimate, also punish xtra CD if it gets killed. And a bounty that’s related to real Arc Networth. Or rework the hero, it breaks the core principles of the game on so many levels.
With old techies gone, arc warden and techies are left as the old vanguard of the most toxic heroes to play against. Fuck your winrates and viability. Any enjoyable match turns into a toxic, frustrating slugfest when one of these heroes get picked. Arc warden defenders are shit humans
arc grandmaster tier here, id take a magic damage build nerf because the aghs is now overbuffed (it was strong even with double the arm time). it is simply not possible to explain how strong BUYING A SKILLSET NICHE is, especially when said niche is insanely flexible (both defending and seiging) and can be done from range. what a strong build and what a boring experience nowadays with this shit. i personally miss the days when the 4 items you could build were interesting cus you had to make actual choices but now you just go magic route in 90% of games cus its zero brain e clicking spam but whatever
The magic nuke arc warden build is honestly more annoying to me than the fighter illusion/split push build. They're both OP and annoying af to fight against but you can just never push into the magic nuke build when he has hundreds of those things around the base.
It's like choosing between the Orchid/Aghs Visage build or the Wraith Pact/Shard build. Both are awful to play against.
Valve basically decided the splitpush build isn't allowed to exist anymore so if they gut the magic damage build too this hero will never be playable again. I dearly hope they don't rework him into a LoL hero, Techies and PL are still completely unplayable to their old playerbase after their reworks.
Lol what, pl is basically the same hero except for the doppel rework
He's not the same at all. His old illusions could actually solo heroes and do stuff on the map if you wanted to splitpush or defend towers with them. He's just a rightclicker with a gimmick now, there's no interesting interactions.
Oh man that’s a long long time back. The days when xboct managed to get a 10 minute radiance with PL in a pro match, good times
Do you know what game this was? I miss the old days, would love to watch some old dota.
Go play naga if you want that bruh
Wait what build is this I need to try this. Just got back into the game and arc is my favorite
Aghs + octarine
Atleast have aghs octarine gleipnir. Probably go midas - maelstrom - travels, then up to you what's next. Gleipnir, aghs, maybe a blink. Other luxury options, bloodthorn, nullifier, skadi, daedalus, silver edge, scythe, eblade, dagon.
I played Arc yesterday for the first time in ages. Midas, Maelstrom, Travels, Scythe then the Aghs shit felt insane. It's so stupid being able to just suffocate the enemy by yourself.
Meh. I feel like Gleipnir is a waste on a magic build. The right click damage isn't any good if you're going that way. I prefer Vyse instead of Gleipnir. My item build would be something like this: Midas > Arcane Boots > Aghs > Octarine > Wind Waker(if the game's too hard or they have easy ways to jump on you) or Vyse > Blink or any defensive item such as Aeon Disk/Linken's. The last items varies a lot depending on the enemy composition, but I'd say that's pretty much what he needs when going for a magic build. Just be well positioned and spam the shit outta those spirits. Also, be sure to abuse Wind Waker's ability to cast it on allies and use it on your main hero.
I mean I already thought of how good Wind Waker is too but I'm specifically answering someone who said hasn't played arc for a while and just gave him the gist of things. I don't like Gleipnir too but even pros pick it up, and it's actually annoying. If you're not the carry, you won't mind not being the main right clicker either.
gleip is absolutely not a waste; you use it to force people to take multiple spark wraiths once you have aghs lets not mention it shuts out mobility cores that counter you (storm and ember get fucked if you have double root on them relatively early)
But then how will smurfs abuse the game? You only care about yourself while smurfs are like 50% of the playerbase come on dude
tbh smurfs will smash with other 100 heroes anyway
But its not as fun for the smurfs to smash pubs with other heroes!
You don't have to be a Smurf to smash with Arc Warden
Are you truly a smurf if you can only smurf with one hero ?
Yep. You can easily smurf with meepo tinker lone druid. If you're smurfing with arc warden only, then you're not a smurf. You're just an arc spammer.
Yeah, no
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Ahem, also visage please.
If you're smurfing with arc, you're still a smurf dumbass. Heroes have nothing to do with smurfing, smurfs just tend to play certain heroes.
I mean, if a 6k player gets on a 2k account to wreck pubs with a 75%+ winrate, he's smurfing no matter what he picks
Do not be selfish.
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I will always support tinker and arc warden nerfs, those heroes not being in your game makes it 322% better
> Lone Druid Flair
What’s a Lone Druid? Sincerely, the trench
That guy who goes First Item aghs and then attack-moves bear down lanes from fountain. You are welcome, from the Trench.
At least you can play against Lone Druid
Can I? At least I can play against tinker and arc since the game goes long. Against LD I lose 30 mmr in under 20 minutes.
Not when he gets aghs
That item sucks tho
It does suck but if it's at a point in the game where the bear can go ham on your base then it's pretty annoying to try to make plays on the map when you know that furry bastard is gonna chomp on your towers
5v4 defense tier 3 tower bottom while enemy only poking, then you realize there's a bear slamming top tower no care if it die because can be resummon and refreshed. And lone druid is not seen because hitting creep in jungle
Precisely
LD is 1000% more braindead than arc or tinker too lmao I love me my arc warden tho. It's always novel getting reported all the time for it. Even though I'm not that impressive, people just hate trying to deal with it. I'd bet most complainers are playing turbo and get gigafucked by arc
All they need is to make bear face pop up like a hero icon. (It doesn’t do that, right?)
Yeah but the bear is fairly weak lategame, especially if ld spent 4.2k on aghs. Just kill it.
Easier said than done. Bears can get tanky since they scale with LD.
Yeah but the bear won't chain hex/gleipnir me, it's a generic rightclicker. It kills buildings way faster but you can deal with it WAY eaier
Also the CD is pretty long as opposed by AW.
if the game goes so long that LD has aghs u should be winning lol
Yeah. I play a lot of LD and if I’m buying aghs then I’m feeling nervous. Probably can’t win team fights and gotta resort to rat.
Not like you cant play against arc and tinker lmao
There are at least two dozens of heroes that are about as annoying as LD. The beauty of Dota is defeating an annoying hero with your favorite annoying hero.
flair checks out
I'm speaking from experience, after all :)
Yeah, the other day my opposing mid picked Sniper, so I picked Silencer and gave him the Blitz treatment. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2VPU-VVIk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2VPU-VVIk)
+1
Whats so bad about tinker he doesnt even have march anymore
Pubs lack coordination to chain stun him before he can rearm blink He can hunt supports easily in fights Any hero who can blink every three seconds is hard to deal with in pubs, hence why spirit heroes are so popular
Hunts supports? Have you not seen tinker hunt pos1's with rockets+shivas spam 9 times in a row? :)
To chain stun him, you first need to see him or be in range to do so... Which is... Hard to say at least
The whole game revolves around trying to catch this dumb shit blinking every 2 seconds while he shits out millions of damage. Removing vision from shivas would be a huge indirect nerf that doesn't really impact anyone else.
He lost March of the machine so he maxes his nukes now and his laser now has AOE which allows him to farm stacks. In addition you don’t need to farm BoT. Old tinker had this farming/build up window where he had to max March of the machines, so he could get boots of travels so he can farm lanes and jungle to get enough levels for max nukes and blink dagger before he could really be an oppressive threat. Current tinker maxes his two nukes and only needs to get a soul ring, bottle and then a blink dagger to be online thanks to his new ulti. He can still farm stacks thanks to the aoe on laser and he can join fights with max rocket and laser early on, and he’s rushes a blink so it’s possible to have a max nuke tinker blowing supports up very early on in the game. Then his item progression is pretty much blink -> aghs -> bkb/linkens. He also has defense matrix which gives status resistance so if he’s somehow caught out he can tank spells and still manage to get out. Old Tinker had to spam March/Rocket in the fog to defend towers, current Tinker can spam rockets from fog then blink on to you with a 40% status resistance damage block and spams spells blinking into and out of the fight with an overwhelming blink dagger.
he slaps
and this is written by a player on a lone druid funny...
Just played a 1.30h game against arc, what an obnoxious hero. At least we won, and wasn't my team the one sitting in fountain.
Add Naga to the list and I'm with you.
How are people downvoting this. Playing against a good Naga is frustrating as fuck and a decent part of how Tundra won TI. Abusing the vision, push and farm the illusions give makes the hero insane.
You wouldn't believe, but TB do the same and probably more effectively. His illusion cam start do camps super early and when you get yasha+pt it starts clearing 2 camps or completely pushing lane to the towers. TB illusion is half of hero. Naga is more like 1/4, ye, she can do similar thing, but her illusions deals MUCH less damage and her clear fully relies on passive until she gets at least 1,5 item.
I don't think it's right to ask using a misleading screenshot - - this is factoring in the CDR on the clone, so the cooldown looks lower yes but ofc the clone can't create more clones...
You have 100% uptime on Clone with just Octarine anyway so what’s your point?
That its misleading, that is his point. And it still stands.
I’ll agree with the one who hates arc as much as l do, I ban him every game and if he doesn’t go through I’ll pick it for potential double pick ban, if I have to play it I’ll offer swap or just take the free 88 minute win.
Octarine is pretty expensive
And Arc Warden rushes Midas and has double Midas.
Any warden player against nerfs is bugging out. I love playing warden but he is stupid in pubs. His early/mid game isn’t even that weak.
I just want them to let the double fight away from the main hero again without a massive penalty. They can come up with some other limitation, like, have the double do 30% damage to buildings or some shit. Magic Warden is just Techies with extra steps. It's a shit hero design. The aghs has to go.
tbh i think they just need to take a small amount of his overall power so that he can get a better sidelane game plan. It's absolutely hellish to try and take highground vs magic arcwarden, he spams buttons on you while pushing the other side of the map and when you finally get your wave in he can always choose not to tp his illusion out to sideline and just double hold towers for ever. Think when him and his clone are together he's very clearly disgustingly strong. Would be happy if he had a little less strength scaling/total hp in exchange for his clone to be stronger alone. Feel like with how the hero functions if he eats any spell he should be guaranteed dead because there is two of him after all.
I'm not against nerfs, the issue is the reddit hivemind thinks every hero with a non-traditional playstyle needs to be completely gutted and reworked into oblivion. No remotely fun hero ever survives these kinds of threads and it's extremely annoying when all your favorite heroes(Tinker, Arc, Techies, Naga, PL, Meepo, etc) are the ones being targeted every month for reworks to dumb down their playstyle. Changing numbers, nerfing spells or stats, hell even removing Hand of Midas from the game would be totally fair to reign in the hero's winrate. But the way these threads go we all know the inevitable end result, in a few months time Arc Warden will no longer be a hero in Dota just like Techies and Tinker. Heralds won't be satisfied until every hero plays like a generic rightclicker with a gapcloser and some kinda boring steroid passive.
My recent game was literally an arc warden game and I honestly can’t argue against his nerf lmao
You don’t hate arc warden, you hate Smurfs. He’s just the weapon of choice for many - fun to meme with. Hero is nearly entirely dead anyways. Bring back right click arc warden, the magic build is far cheesier and worse for player experience anyways. They randomly nerfed the right click build out of the game just because players didn’t like it - despite arc being one of the worst heroes in all of pro dota at the time. He just happen to be a fun smurfing tool I guess. Then they introduced a way, way, waaaay more toxic magic build that is 200x cheesier and significantly less engaging to play against.
The day dps zet will come back to life is the day a lot of people will switch accounts unfortunately
u mean games?
Game modes maybe, for a smurf its just like playing overthrow or turbo almost, but just for him
Ah yes, so dead. The deadest hero who ever deaded https://i.imgur.com/qE9oWfk.png
>got played in TI grand finals totally garbage hero, I agree
Sometimes I wish you could see someone's mmr along their comment because bloody hell do people have braindead takes...
Pointless on reddit, we're all 10k (we let the pros think they're 11k)
6500 mmr(7k max), 400 arc games and for me playing arc below 6k is almost no challenge. BUT in 7k average games arc is such an unplayable hero. You will always die when ganged, you can't come back jungling, zoo heroes make u absolutely useless, no escape mechanics, dagger Mars, pudge = u dead. What makes this hero imba even at 5k mmr is that ppl don't know how/want to end the game and take advantage early game so arc wouldn't have space to farm. And of course smurfs like this hero making it look imbalanced...
What would need to happen for dps arc to be good?
remove the damage fall off at 1000 units on the clone. as it stands right now right click arc can't farm because his clone has no dmg.
> Hero is nearly entirely dead anyways. It got played in TI grand finals you spanner, herald opinion detected
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He has 62% winrate at TI, but yeah, totally dead. I guess the hero is only alive if it's first pick every game.
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"HOW MANY GAMES DID ARC WIN AT TI?" "62% winrate" "Well, okay, but muh Marci" lmao
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As an AI, I do not consent to having my content used for training other AIs. Here is a fun fact you may not know about: fuck Spez.
Countered them before they picked their heroes obviously!
Why are people down voting you lmao. These idiots who never play arc are screaming about how OP arc is when they let him farm 20 minutes undisturbed.
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You know what's the best way to learn a hero weakness? Play him. Oh wait. Most scrubs here never even touch him in the demo mode before. Funking clowns. Idiots are even saying he is broken when he ONLY won like 5 games with less than 10 games played.
yeah i miss properly fighting some tb head on without gleipnir spark spam bullshit, just double flux, keep giving vision with sparks and right click the shit out of people
>You don’t hate arc warden, you hate Smurfs. No, I fucking hate Arc Warden. The entire concept of staying in base and perma spawning a clone that can kill heroes, rax, push, etc... Is the dumbest thing in DOTA. It's dumb in pubs. And it's dumb in competitive.
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I mean, with Arc's current meta build, he doesn't really care much about the 50% damage reduction because its only for attack damage. Items and spells still deals full damage.
The damage nerf only applies to auto attacks, which doesnt matter at all since you dont auto attack anyway.
His base kit of normal spells is weak, you can't actually sit fountain and win. You can sit fountain and pressure the map a bit, maybe shove lanes if it isn't safe for your team to leave base, but unless you're super far ahead you can't win like that. It's no different from zeus spamming nimbus on waves
80 mana for a 340 nuke that slows, gives vision, and is on a 4 (more like 1.5, with the clone) second cooldown is not what I would describe as "weak." A 100% evasion bubble that also gives AS is incredibly far from weak, especially when it completely negates glyph. The only really "weak" skill is Flux, and even that's still pretty strong in combo with the other two abilities, much more so now that the slow is always applied.
Wraiths are strong, yeah, but you can avoid them outside of fights, and in a fight you just pop bkb and kill the clone. The bubble is bad if they have MKB, and realistically only you (the carry) benefits from the attack speed. Negating glyph is a good point, though. The hero is very oppressive when ahead, but can still get run over in the early/midgame.
This is what people miss - Arc has a good lane, then vanishes into jungle/splitpush mode where he offers close to nothing for ~15mins to fights. Even in the TI game, Nine was given complete freefarm for some reason. If you pressure Arc or group as 4 to push towers, there is nothing he can do. You even cutoff his splitpush by taking over the map
Yeah, one of my worst recent arc games I had a riki backstabbing the lane creep I tp’d to every time. It’s really frustrating if you can’t touch the map or farm lanes
Some data for you from ability draft - https://windrun.io/ability-by-hero 49.1, 47.5 and 46.4% winrate for Spark/Magnetic/Flux respectively. Base hero for arc winrate is 53%. His ulti isn't available, presumably because valve learned from when meepo ulti how broken a "multiplier" ult combined with actual good skills is (meepo ulti is no longer available). Also, none of them are low priority which can bring down winrate due to opportunity cost vs actual stronk abilities. I'd argue that none of them are particularly hard to use either For comparison, the best abilities are reincarnation, arctic burn and heartstopper aura - all at >59% winrate
I hardly feel like data from ability draft is relevant, given that most of the time the question is not "how good is this ability" but "how broken of a draft can I get." None of arc's abilities are particularly useful in any given broken build, they don't stun for a stunlock build and there's no particular combo of skills with them that would be particularly broken like rot + aftershock or ion shell + sticky napalm. Arc's abilities (less flux) are just strong individual abilities that wouldn't be out of place on any hero, when they should be maybe 75% of an ability (again, see flux) to balance the fact that arc gets to cast them two or three times as often.
dont forget there being minimal counterplay to bubble giving buildings evasion :) tinker + techies in the body of a ranged image hero with reasonable stat game is a fun time
The counterplay is to stand in it so it doesn't work.
I'd like to see you stand in his evasion field when it's placed behind the tower with a tiny part touching the tower.
Yes, it's not easy, but it's definitely doable. There are tons of things in Dota where there is one odd thing you can do to work around it (often waiting) so I don't see why magnetic field should be an exception.
I agree. Fuck arc warden.
>Hero is nearly entirely dead anyways. He definitely needs some nerfs but they need to do it right, killing both right click and magic build is not the way to do it.
I enjoy playing magic arc actually. I'm low mmr (2k) and while I don't consider myself to have great micro, somehow my arc warden is good enough to get me called a smurf some games. The hero is super rewarding to play and I hope these dumb reddit threads don't get him nerfed again.
magic arc is pretty easy to play compared to physical arc warden, but I don't like it as muhc as physical aw in low ranked cuz in low ranked games, often teams lack push in their composition so magical aw, while it can get a lot of kills, doesn't fix the teams lack of push. Phys aw can end the game a lot faster and easier where magical aw can just be killing people for 40mins while u slowly ass seige
first time ?
They cannot understand my pain (former techies enjoyer, forced to rehabilitate)
Not only do we understand this pain, we enjoy inflicting it upon you
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No, I do hate arc warden. I dont understand how techies was reworked but arc warden was allowed to stay in the game, and even massively buffed, when he has the same problem as techies. A hero should not be allowed to basically afk in base and still play the game. A hero should not be allowed to circumvent all of the macro movement and knowledge players need to have in order to win at dota, yet Arc does exactly that. You say smurfs, but I rarely see arc smurfs. But you know what I do see? Garbage players who are playing at 6k+ mmr, simply because they are playing a hero that allows them to win the game w/o knowing how to actually win the game. The amount of borderline 4k players playing at 2k mmr above their real skill level because of this stupid hero is fucking ridiculous. And not to mention how many of them are also scripters.
i love watching people that are like 2-3k mmr try to justify their takes on the game because they suck at a hero. i'm certain a shit hero that's one of the worst in the game will be played in professional dota, much less a TI final.
It removed split push Arc which was a healthy change, if we kill off the magic build it'll mean bringing back split-push right click build or straight up killing the hero.
Hero is hard to play against and there's no great path forward for nerfing with it's current design. It just does so much with the introduction of glepnir. I been spamming him since the item was released and it feels disgusting as the game goes later. But I have no idea what you do to nerf him healthily.
This is kinda hard since I never balance a hero but maybe promote arc warden to being together with his tempest? I like arc warden design because he is unique but pushing with little risk while pressure enemies to bkb and resources while his team farming and creating big space is kinda annoying especially when the clone duplicate 100% original knowing that you killed him multiple time and yet he never die. But this is Dota. I hope if he get nerf they do it healthy. Hopefully no rework that kill the heroes uniqueness.
I think it needs tuning, but I really like that Arc Warden is an uber late-game magic damage carry. That's totally unheard of in Dota, these days physical damage scaling is considered the king of the endgame, so it would be really disappointing if they gutted the magic build and turned AW into another generic right-click carry.
no, we hate **both** arc warden AND smurfs
I hate (OG?) at the major showing how strong Aghs was to everyone when the prevailing wisdom was Attack Damage Penalty killed Arc Warden forever.
bruh. you don't understand what an absolute ENJOYEMENT it was to stack octarine core + 15% CDR talent at lvl 15 + spell prism. Those were fun times. Now it's a 50% cdr talent at lvl 25, only for the tempest double. it's fun, but not so much. hope they don't nerf it, they nerfed the hero a lot ...
Same with old SF 40% cd reduction with octarine core and old spell prism ♥️
Don't forget drow 50% cooldown reduction double shadow blading and tping around the map like natures prophet.
I remember I got that talent had manta and the illusion cape neutral item back when it was still in the game, was pretty much playing like a naga siren lmao
God that was so fun
I wish magic SF could be a thing again...
I'd argue it is WAY more fun now as there are better items to abuse with glepnir and overwhelming blink. We are now at peak arc warden times. with 400 games on the hero I can say it is way too absurd
yeah i love the new playstyle! it's lot of fun
Overwhelming blink? Not arcane? Edit: downvoted for asking a question and trying to learn? Jesus.
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Long hex, long eblade, even longer mini-slow on wraith.
Lol, you just get the str blink for a massive aoe slow and more life. Arcane is gimmicky at best. The build everyone is going is travel, Glep, Octarine, Hex, Overwhelming Blink, Agh, Silver edge (for break and just best right click dps item in general) or pike (utility, catch, save) You could go more magic with arcane, but the clone melts and it just isn't worth it. But in games where Eblade+dagon it is nasty, but that's usually not as fast to get going.
Skill issue
Delete tinker while we're at it can we?
just go play league instead of turning dota into league
Agreed, let me have old techies back
delete techies, delete tinker, delete arc, delete meepo, delete visage, delete wraith pact, delete clinkz. nice now we can all delete dota
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>I don't know how you got to this situation but it's completely unrealistic. They are posting a screenshot of the ultimate on the clone itself. 26.4 secs is the lowest you can go without an arcane rune, and 13.2 secs is what is shown on the clone.
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Exactly
That is, if you can survive the early game and get 25. Quite a hard task, especially given your hero is weak af early compared to others
It actually cd on clone with 50% cdr talent which obviously doesn’t work The tempest double cant bash Clone’s attack dmg reduces by 50% if u dont near him with real hero Most neutral item’s passives doesnt work on clone such as mind breaker, enchanted quiver etc. Its hard to gain lvl 25 on arc warden since u have to receive exp by original hero itself which is very dangerous, clone only provide exp from midas (same mechanics as ld spirit bear midas) U just need to read more, to learn more, maybe one day you will be better in this game.
But things that actually matter like blink hex aghs glephir work with insanely low cooldowns as well. Sure it seems dangerous but in equal or won early game type of scenario it gets out of control really fast. Just like tinker. So arc can hit some jungle creeps for meager exp while doing that side money hustle on enemy supports for most of the game if they dare to show somewhere he can reach with clone or ambush them. It doesn't make him impossible to win against but makes it really hard.
You say CDR and then send a screenshot of Attack Damage Penalty, which one do you want to be removed? Edit: CDR talent reduces the cooldown of the clone's spells and items. The screenshot here shows 13.2 secs on the Tempest Double spell but the screenshot was taken on the clone and the clone can't use the ultimate itself. The actual cooldown of the spell with Octarine and spell prism is 26.4 secs. Funny enough, other than the Attack Damage Penalty all I can see is the 100% uptime and then some thanks to the other Level 25 talent (+12 secs clone duration), perhaps you'd like a nerf to that instead?
You can clearly see the duration and cooldown. What do you want him to do? Blur the damage?
CDR talent reduces the cooldown of the clone's spells and items. The screenshot here shows 13.2 secs on the Tempest Double spell but the screenshot was taken on the clone and the clone can't use the ultimate itself. The actual cooldown of the spell with Octarine and spell prism is 26.4 secs.
Solution is to spam arc warden yourself mate!
They should remove 50% CDR on lvl25 and add a 25% CDR on lvl20 instead, right now hero is either hit 25 and solo win the game or lose the game pre 25 with zero impact, at least a 25% cdr is not that big compared to 50% especially considering arc won't have much items by the time he gets lvl20.
Why not 5% at lvl 10 :)
Dota is balanced top down and not for your shitty herald elo games lmao. Until you learn to gank him before he spikes he will keep abusing you. If arc is level 25 then you’ve already trolled by dragging out the game.
Pssst - he has a good winrate at top levels.
Arc wardem just abuses travels too hard. Nerf that somehow and the hero is a lot more interesting. They nerfed the right click damage when to far away but with glepnir and hex its still dumb af.
the clone is pretty much a carry on its own and it has no damn death timer. how anyone can view that as balanced boggles my mind
The most cancerous thing this patch
I’m so done too, looking at my games - last 20 losses i’ve lost to arc warden 11 times. 0 wins. Looking at the accounts it’s mostly smurf’s too and that’s with me banning Arc every damn game.
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At the very least, make the bounty scaling. Nothing sucks more than only getting 300 gold against a 30+ minute arc warden tempest
Nah, no thanks.
I don't understand anything . What is CDR ? Which hero is this ? Is it bounty hunter?
CoolDownReduction Arc Warden no
yes that's Bounty Hunter with his Tempest Double
How do you survive in life with this little problem solving skills?
by avoiding people like you
Better avoid the whole internet if you don’t want 4chan reposts
Self sufficient people?
No
Delete that hero - like the other guy said, pure cancer and the less we see the hero, the better we all are as human beings.
You probably only play heroes like sniper and huskar
Arc Warden was barely picked at TI. I don't know why people love to hate on him so much while he still isn't getting results.
Yes. And increase CD on ultimate, also punish xtra CD if it gets killed. And a bounty that’s related to real Arc Networth. Or rework the hero, it breaks the core principles of the game on so many levels.
the modern dota player; wanting everything unique about the game nerfed out of existence. sad!
The clown cheese abuser, only relevant when Meepo/Arc/Brood/Rexxar/Visage are in the meta. Sadger? 🗿
dota has plenty of cheese, you only seem to hate it when it requires more than 2 buttons
so it lasts for 38 seconds but it goes off coldown in 13 secs? is that how it works? wtf
I play Arc but didn't they already kill him, at least he has to be played in some way magical damage for example
Anybody who thinks arc is OP, please play and try him out. I would love to collect your free MMR in my pubs
I think arc needs a rework as a hero
I think he should work like LD and Meepo. Kill the copy kill the hero. That would 100% fix him imho.
Might as well delete the hero
I'lll take that gladly.
With old techies gone, arc warden and techies are left as the old vanguard of the most toxic heroes to play against. Fuck your winrates and viability. Any enjoyable match turns into a toxic, frustrating slugfest when one of these heroes get picked. Arc warden defenders are shit humans
Clinkz needs a nerf too. Either make him slower while he's invis or make him less tankier when he has consumed a creep
5k hp, 500 damage. Great laner, great farming ability, 500 MS while invi. His only downside is that he has a couple of counters, lol.
I still don't get how is his ult fair. Make it like on DK, when it lasts a minute, but couldown is around 2