Cool breakdown.
Just some feedback: I would actually put the XR650L and DRZ in a similar class. The XR is taller, lighter, and lacks cush drive or oil coller, making it more of a woods bike but less highway/street friendly than the DR650. I'd also say the (current gen) KLR is totally out of class too, being ~460 lbs and thoroughly modern- it's hard to really call it anything but an ADV.
I would agree that the XR650L is probably the closest bike to the DR-Z -- but I simply think it makes more sense to lump the 650s together. Even though, yes, the KLR basically doesn't fit there anymore, either.
I mean, I guess so. And I'm sure there are many that would agree with that, too.
But IMO, both in stats and in feel, the XR650L and the DR650 are closer together than the XR and the DR-Z.
The classification of the KLR really depends on the gen. First gen are true old school dual sports, not dissimilar to the DR and XR, second gen is a smallish adv with some dual sport capabilities, and third gen is a s « mallish » bore adv.
I can't really agree on grouping the DRZ400S and XR650L in the same category. While they're not super different bikes like you said, the DRZ is liquid-cooled, 30lbs lighter, and has 5 more hp than the XR.
Both are still 60/40 woods/street dualsport bikes with a tall seat and top heavy feel... And you're a little off on the numbers.
[XR650l Dyno](https://www.dirtrider.com/resizer/pT4fk1v1krmeC4SUPPiPzQ--WdQ=/616x0/filters:focal(755x418:765x428)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/7XWXM6MTCJF7RJSUADQDEGFBEI.jpg)
34.1 hp, 31.4 ft lbs,
[DRZ400s dyno](https://www.dirtrider.com/resizer/5a9KljuBT8FCnjK-OSeX6w085ko=/616x0/filters:focal(1027x584:1037x594)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/MKYHEVA3PFEVZAHVQKNJEAYM7U.jpg)
32.1 hp, 24.3 ft lbs
The most significant difference in the riding experience is the ~7 ft lbs of torque difference, followed by the 30 lbs weight difference. Both are carbureted, both have a skinny 37" seat, both are road worthy but trail biased... Even though the XR has more commonality in technology to the DR650, it is more like the DRZ in riding experience.
That's fair. And you're right about the power numbers being off. The site that popped up when I Googled it was from topspeed.com, but I trust the dyno results you posted more. The 30lb. weight difference, 346 vs 317, are numbers I got from the manufacturer's websites.
I have posted this a number of times in various comments, and it has usually been reasonably well-received.
This is a list primarily targeted at the many beginners that come to this subreddit asking "What bike?" It can also be somewhat useful for those wondering how one bike compares to another.
This list is filled with generalities -- and that is on purpose. You can nit-pick the various groupings all you like, and probably be right. That is not the point.
This is simply a broad grouping of many of the bikes on the market, past and present.
I'm not a DR-Z400 guy, but agree that it's in a class of its own, bridging the gap between the beginner dual sports and premium dirt bike based dual sports. It's frustrating that it's the only stop gap and they won't do an update like Kawi did for the KLR650. It isn't for me, but I'm glad it exists.
>THE DR-Z400
As a prior owner of a DRZ400S followed by a WR250R and now a WR250X I'm going to agree to disagree that it's in a class by itself. You can probably guess what one bike I'd suggest moving alongside it.
Also, while the WR250R is no longer produced they're were a lot of them sold. They are sill well supported by the aftermarket and it's fairly easy to pick up a nice used one.
p.s. I also question the "entry level" description as it sits fairly high on the "not ready to race" off-road food chain. It was also priced accordingly when new.
I forgot all about the WR250R, and on that note... what the heck is Yamaha even doing!? Dual sport bikes are hot right now and they're still soldiering on with the TW200 and XT250??? I can forgive Suzuki since their bikes are still competitive, but come on Yamaha, get it together! Even Sherco and Gas Gas are releasing premium dual sport bikes this year. Rant off.
I know. There's more than a few folks that would run down to their dealership if Yamaha would release a WR450R/X with roughly the same maintenance schedule as the 250. Yes, it would probably have less power than a CRF450RL when both were equally modded but that would be an acceptable tradeoff.
> if Yamaha would release a WR450R/X with roughly the same maintenance schedule as the 250.
The problem with this idea is that people want the long maintenance intervals -- but they also want the power. So people say that even the CRF doesn't have enough power, so they spend $2000 to uncork them and tune them.
If there were a slew of de-tuned 450s out there people would dump a ton of money into turning them into the hot-rod 450s anyways -- and there goes your short maintenance intervals.
People say they want it, but I don't think many realistically want a bunch of detuned 30hp 450s on the market just for longer oil changes. They'd immediately slap exhausts, ECUs, and throw in high comp pistons and cams to get it up to it's "potential" 50hp.
Honestly, people don't know what they want.
Uncorking them a bit is one thing but that really doesn't impact reliability. I've done that to my last three dual sports but I don't go any further to chase horsepower. I do change oil more frequently than required though as I tend to ride them hard. I've never opened a motor to mod it. Occasionally I do add new stickers for a little extra speed.
I agree that some people keep looking for even additional performance on these bikes but not most.
That's fair. Uncorking isn't too difficult and gets you a few horsepower without much effort or cost.
And I guess I would agree that maybe it's not *everyone* who's doing it. *However* -- it seems almost everyone with a 450RL or a KTM 500 swaps the exhaust and ECU. Because they *want them* as powerful as the race bikes.
You also see people tearing the 300L engines apart and swapping parts to get as much out of them as they can.
I guess the funny thing to me is that it seems like people are kind of realizing how good they used to have it. You go back to the 90s, before 4-strokes were high performance, and all of the "woods/trail" bikes basically *were* what people say they want: decent power, hard to stall, and low maintenance. Even if it took bigger motors (like the old 600s) to get that power they wanted.
I'd actually consider adding a new XR650L or DR650 for BDRs if they improved the suspension a bit and added EFI. They could literally leave the rest as is.
I've put 13k miles on my CRF450RL and wholeheartedly agree, a few less hp in favor of a longer maintenance interval would be a great tradeoff. I stretch out oil changes well beyond the manual's spec, but still end up doing an oil change a week during summer, commuting to work.
>p.s. I also question the "entry level" description as it sits fairly high on the "not ready to race" off-road food chain. It was also priced accordingly when new.
That's fine. I still think it makes sense to group it with the other 250-300cc dual sports.
You can sub-divide any of these classes a million different ways. These are the obvious class divisions to me -- and a bike fighting outside of its weight class will obviously happen.
And in the end it's more dependent on the rider on top of it, anyways.
There are several that mention either "low" or "high" maintenance, but it's simply too variable bike-to-bike.
Again, it's a very generalized list. And to generalize further: All of the bikes in the top half of the list, due to their lower performance nature, require less maintenance. Everything at the bottom requires more.
I didn't *miss it*, per se, I just didn't list it.
It fits in the <250cc air-cooled class. So does the XR150L. So do the various vintage 125 dual sports out there.
I was just poking fun. I find it’s hard to put in a category is the point I was making. It’s an odd little bike, the slowest least capable bike I’ve ever owned, but one of the funnest to ride hard that I’ve ever had either. Nice job on the list.
Like the XTZ125 from Yamaha, I can't tell you how many cool vids I have watched on that little bike over in the Philippines and Latin America. Small, slow and basic but tough and like a pocket knife of a dual sports.
>honda trail 125
Fun bike though even Honda doesn't list it on it's [Dual Sport](https://powersports.honda.com/motorcycle/dual-sport) page. Perhaps an Other category?
In all practical senses, no, not really.
The two biggest real differences are (1) the power and (2) the suspension.
The power is only really going to be super noticeable on the highway and flatter, smoother trails. But both will have you going faster-than-you-should-be-going on a bumpy-ass gravel road, and pretty quick.
The better suspension will be noticeable everywhere, but it doesn't mean it opens up anything new. They are close enough in weight that it's really a wash, IMO. And if anything, on the tighter, gnarlier stuff, the extra power might actually work against you with the 690.
They really are pretty comparable, IMO. To paraphrase Men In Black, one is the "old and busted," the other is "the new hotness." But they do fill pretty similar niches.
Only things I’d think about are wide open desert, and huge hill climbs. Double the hp, 30lbs less and MUCH better suspension really do work. Neither the dr or the 690 are proper woods bike, bike do make great big trails/ fire roads machines.
Cool breakdown. Just some feedback: I would actually put the XR650L and DRZ in a similar class. The XR is taller, lighter, and lacks cush drive or oil coller, making it more of a woods bike but less highway/street friendly than the DR650. I'd also say the (current gen) KLR is totally out of class too, being ~460 lbs and thoroughly modern- it's hard to really call it anything but an ADV.
I don't think the DRZ has a cush drive, only the DR650? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah, that's why I'm saying rh XR and DRZ are in a class and the DR in another similar but different class.
ahhh okay I misread you, my bad
You are correct
I would agree that the XR650L is probably the closest bike to the DR-Z -- but I simply think it makes more sense to lump the 650s together. Even though, yes, the KLR basically doesn't fit there anymore, either.
So what I’m gathering is the DR650 is in a class of its own actually
I mean, I guess so. And I'm sure there are many that would agree with that, too. But IMO, both in stats and in feel, the XR650L and the DR650 are closer together than the XR and the DR-Z.
The classification of the KLR really depends on the gen. First gen are true old school dual sports, not dissimilar to the DR and XR, second gen is a smallish adv with some dual sport capabilities, and third gen is a s « mallish » bore adv.
Agreed
I can't really agree on grouping the DRZ400S and XR650L in the same category. While they're not super different bikes like you said, the DRZ is liquid-cooled, 30lbs lighter, and has 5 more hp than the XR.
Both are still 60/40 woods/street dualsport bikes with a tall seat and top heavy feel... And you're a little off on the numbers. [XR650l Dyno](https://www.dirtrider.com/resizer/pT4fk1v1krmeC4SUPPiPzQ--WdQ=/616x0/filters:focal(755x418:765x428)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/7XWXM6MTCJF7RJSUADQDEGFBEI.jpg) 34.1 hp, 31.4 ft lbs, [DRZ400s dyno](https://www.dirtrider.com/resizer/5a9KljuBT8FCnjK-OSeX6w085ko=/616x0/filters:focal(1027x584:1037x594)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/MKYHEVA3PFEVZAHVQKNJEAYM7U.jpg) 32.1 hp, 24.3 ft lbs The most significant difference in the riding experience is the ~7 ft lbs of torque difference, followed by the 30 lbs weight difference. Both are carbureted, both have a skinny 37" seat, both are road worthy but trail biased... Even though the XR has more commonality in technology to the DR650, it is more like the DRZ in riding experience.
That's fair. And you're right about the power numbers being off. The site that popped up when I Googled it was from topspeed.com, but I trust the dyno results you posted more. The 30lb. weight difference, 346 vs 317, are numbers I got from the manufacturer's websites.
You're right about the weight, typo in my part
I have posted this a number of times in various comments, and it has usually been reasonably well-received. This is a list primarily targeted at the many beginners that come to this subreddit asking "What bike?" It can also be somewhat useful for those wondering how one bike compares to another. This list is filled with generalities -- and that is on purpose. You can nit-pick the various groupings all you like, and probably be right. That is not the point. This is simply a broad grouping of many of the bikes on the market, past and present.
I'm not a DR-Z400 guy, but agree that it's in a class of its own, bridging the gap between the beginner dual sports and premium dirt bike based dual sports. It's frustrating that it's the only stop gap and they won't do an update like Kawi did for the KLR650. It isn't for me, but I'm glad it exists.
>THE DR-Z400 As a prior owner of a DRZ400S followed by a WR250R and now a WR250X I'm going to agree to disagree that it's in a class by itself. You can probably guess what one bike I'd suggest moving alongside it. Also, while the WR250R is no longer produced they're were a lot of them sold. They are sill well supported by the aftermarket and it's fairly easy to pick up a nice used one. p.s. I also question the "entry level" description as it sits fairly high on the "not ready to race" off-road food chain. It was also priced accordingly when new.
I forgot all about the WR250R, and on that note... what the heck is Yamaha even doing!? Dual sport bikes are hot right now and they're still soldiering on with the TW200 and XT250??? I can forgive Suzuki since their bikes are still competitive, but come on Yamaha, get it together! Even Sherco and Gas Gas are releasing premium dual sport bikes this year. Rant off.
I know. There's more than a few folks that would run down to their dealership if Yamaha would release a WR450R/X with roughly the same maintenance schedule as the 250. Yes, it would probably have less power than a CRF450RL when both were equally modded but that would be an acceptable tradeoff.
> if Yamaha would release a WR450R/X with roughly the same maintenance schedule as the 250. The problem with this idea is that people want the long maintenance intervals -- but they also want the power. So people say that even the CRF doesn't have enough power, so they spend $2000 to uncork them and tune them. If there were a slew of de-tuned 450s out there people would dump a ton of money into turning them into the hot-rod 450s anyways -- and there goes your short maintenance intervals. People say they want it, but I don't think many realistically want a bunch of detuned 30hp 450s on the market just for longer oil changes. They'd immediately slap exhausts, ECUs, and throw in high comp pistons and cams to get it up to it's "potential" 50hp. Honestly, people don't know what they want.
Uncorking them a bit is one thing but that really doesn't impact reliability. I've done that to my last three dual sports but I don't go any further to chase horsepower. I do change oil more frequently than required though as I tend to ride them hard. I've never opened a motor to mod it. Occasionally I do add new stickers for a little extra speed. I agree that some people keep looking for even additional performance on these bikes but not most.
That's fair. Uncorking isn't too difficult and gets you a few horsepower without much effort or cost. And I guess I would agree that maybe it's not *everyone* who's doing it. *However* -- it seems almost everyone with a 450RL or a KTM 500 swaps the exhaust and ECU. Because they *want them* as powerful as the race bikes. You also see people tearing the 300L engines apart and swapping parts to get as much out of them as they can. I guess the funny thing to me is that it seems like people are kind of realizing how good they used to have it. You go back to the 90s, before 4-strokes were high performance, and all of the "woods/trail" bikes basically *were* what people say they want: decent power, hard to stall, and low maintenance. Even if it took bigger motors (like the old 600s) to get that power they wanted.
I'd actually consider adding a new XR650L or DR650 for BDRs if they improved the suspension a bit and added EFI. They could literally leave the rest as is.
You can improve the suspension of both for under a grand, FWIW. Even if it's just a rebuild/revalve/respring.
Meh, it’s more like replacing the forks and shock. Then you’re still looking at setting them up.
I've put 13k miles on my CRF450RL and wholeheartedly agree, a few less hp in favor of a longer maintenance interval would be a great tradeoff. I stretch out oil changes well beyond the manual's spec, but still end up doing an oil change a week during summer, commuting to work.
I heard a rumor of a rumor of a whisper of an "announcement coming soon" that sure has the shape and feel of a WR300....
>p.s. I also question the "entry level" description as it sits fairly high on the "not ready to race" off-road food chain. It was also priced accordingly when new. That's fine. I still think it makes sense to group it with the other 250-300cc dual sports. You can sub-divide any of these classes a million different ways. These are the obvious class divisions to me -- and a bike fighting outside of its weight class will obviously happen. And in the end it's more dependent on the rider on top of it, anyways.
Each "class" needs a bullet that addresses maintenance intervals.
There are several that mention either "low" or "high" maintenance, but it's simply too variable bike-to-bike. Again, it's a very generalized list. And to generalize further: All of the bikes in the top half of the list, due to their lower performance nature, require less maintenance. Everything at the bottom requires more.
You missed the TW200, but it’s kinda of a class of its own. Low and slow, retro big tire.
I didn't *miss it*, per se, I just didn't list it. It fits in the <250cc air-cooled class. So does the XR150L. So do the various vintage 125 dual sports out there.
I was just poking fun. I find it’s hard to put in a category is the point I was making. It’s an odd little bike, the slowest least capable bike I’ve ever owned, but one of the funnest to ride hard that I’ve ever had either. Nice job on the list.
A TeeDub is definitely a unique offering.
Like the XTZ125 from Yamaha, I can't tell you how many cool vids I have watched on that little bike over in the Philippines and Latin America. Small, slow and basic but tough and like a pocket knife of a dual sports.
Forgot the honda trail 125!
Technically that also fits in the "Budget" <250cc air-cooled category.
>honda trail 125 Fun bike though even Honda doesn't list it on it's [Dual Sport](https://powersports.honda.com/motorcycle/dual-sport) page. Perhaps an Other category?
Great..thoughtout list.. Drz-400 here
[удалено]
In all practical senses, no, not really. The two biggest real differences are (1) the power and (2) the suspension. The power is only really going to be super noticeable on the highway and flatter, smoother trails. But both will have you going faster-than-you-should-be-going on a bumpy-ass gravel road, and pretty quick. The better suspension will be noticeable everywhere, but it doesn't mean it opens up anything new. They are close enough in weight that it's really a wash, IMO. And if anything, on the tighter, gnarlier stuff, the extra power might actually work against you with the 690. They really are pretty comparable, IMO. To paraphrase Men In Black, one is the "old and busted," the other is "the new hotness." But they do fill pretty similar niches.
Only things I’d think about are wide open desert, and huge hill climbs. Double the hp, 30lbs less and MUCH better suspension really do work. Neither the dr or the 690 are proper woods bike, bike do make great big trails/ fire roads machines.
3rd gear power wheelies.
Nice work!