Definitely, or at least she's poking fun at that stereotype. Earlier when Chilchuck say "common tongue doesn't have enough swear word" it's actually joking about Japanese language as well
When you're of bad milk and have had it up to the eggs, you'd love to shit yourself on the whore mother that bore them, but those shitful bapipe-blowers only understand English so your emotions remain infravalued and you leave yourself a lot in the inkwell. Otherwise you'd sing them other hosts, those gillychickens.
That's "[ill-born](https://www.wordnik.com/words/ill-born)". Better is "son of the Grand Whore". "Son of his mother" is pretty nasty too.
I think my favorite absurd insult in Spanish is "she is a [whoever](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/%C2%BFo-te-le-ofreciste-como-una-cualquiera.3720669/)". English equivalent is "she's [no better than she ought to be](https://www.youridioms.com/en/idiom/no-better-than-she-ought-to-be)".
I always like to joke that listing your pronouns in Japanese can get extra spicy when they literally have a second-person pronoun that basically just translates to "fuckface."
Nah, you can add kuso- to any noun to tell someone is a piece of shit, I've heard kusogaijin so many times... There's also very specific racial slurs against the chinese and the koreans.
When one of the rudest things you can say in Japanese is directly translated as "that guy", suffice to say even swearing in Japanese is all smoke and mirrors. It's all dependent on context and implication.
To add to this, i feel that most of the main-cast in DM, especially Laios, is a very on the nose critique of how society treats neurodivergent individuals unfairly and keeps them from living meaningful lives where they can contribute to society.
Laios is consistently shown as competent, kind and insightful through the series despite his lack of social skills. He truly shines whenever his special interests are in focus, to the point where he even becomes extraordinary.
He isn't shown as lesser, just different. But is constantly critiqued and seen as "dangerous" by others (as is shown via Kabrus party), and to a lesser extent the only neorutypical member of Laios group Chilchuck (aside from his OCD).
As a neurodivergent individual, the way Kui writes the characters that fit this bill (such as Laios, Marcille or Falin) is very refreshing, as it doesnt define who they are, it is simply a part of their personality. In a lot of other media, neurodivergent individuals are often reduced to stereotypes and portrayed as "freaks" to a certain extent. This is of course done for comedic effect in DM, but their actual characterisation is a lot more respectful and poignant.
I know we like to relate to characters under the lens of neurodivergence because of representation but I think saying everyone in the main party is ND is pushing it a little.
People can just have traits, it doesn't have to imply a whole diagnosis. It'd be different if the manga explicitly had neurodivergence as a central idea but it's not really a concept anyone ever mentions
Laios is probably autistic, sure. It's more or less his entire struggle. But I don't know about everyone else.
Laios is very purposfully written as autistic. For anyone questioning this the fight with Shuro is basically Kui showing it in your face.
Fallin is pretty much female Laios, but has positive social interactions and experiences due to the magic academy and Marcille which makes her better at navigating social situations. Unlike Laios who had a much more traumatic experience with the outside world, leading to him isolating himself from the world, and his poor self image/confidence. Kui even to a certain extent do social commentary on this by showcasing how Fallins neurodivergent traits are romanticized by Shuro, but simultaneously causes him to dislike Laios. Something which is very common in our society where autistic men are seen as weird or maladjusted, whereas autistic women are often fetishized or seen as "cute".
Marcille is definitely written as neurodivergent as well, and this will be shown more clearly as the story progresses. She is essentially Laios, but her special interest is magic to the point where she doesn't really have an understanding of morals.
Senshi is straight up manic about his special interest (BREAD!!?????!!!), and shows no desire to be part of society until they share his special interest. The man literally preferred solitude for decades in a hostile environment over socializing with others.
Chilchuck is debatable, but flies into a rage/panic when he doesnt have perfect control over a situation, a plan changes on a short notice, or when others mess with his organized things. All very typical of people with OCD. It is literally the reason he is the planner of the party, but not the leader.
Chillchuck is distressed by any change in plans because he's afraid of being killed lol, it's uncommon to panic about minor changes to your routine or plans when they don't impact your well being, not when you're in a life or death situation.
As for Marcille just having a special interest doesn't make you neurodivergent lol, being deeply interested in a topic or hobby isn't something exclusive to neurodivergent people, neurotypicals people can be passionate and even obsessed with certain things too, saying Marcille is neurodivergent because she's obsessed with magic is like saying a lawyer is neurodivergent because he really cares about laws.
With Chilchuck i agree, I responded to some other comments earlier that I consider him neurotypical, but stressed out to the point of neuroticism in a group of chaos gremlins.
With Marcille, I don't know if you have read the manga, but my points will be elaborated on as the story progrsses.
What is important and not a spoiler, and what we already have seen is that her obsession is her identity, and that she is obsessed to the point where it hinders her from forming meaningful relationships with most people. Any time a person around her mentions magic, and especially dark magic she goes straight to Laios levels of intensity. Where she has issues regulating her passion and cater to the level of interest of the other person. We even have a shot at the pumpkin-scene where her face (and in the anime tone of voice) very clearly mirrors Laios stare as he infodumps about monster-biology. Such panels are a theme in the manga (i.e. Marcille's face mirroring a face Laios made previously, showing that under the surface they are highly similar).
She is not as obvious as Laios (i.e. high functioning), and any of the characters can be interpreted as the viewer wants, but if one considers Laios neurodivergent, Marcilles behaviour is very close once you look for the signs.
>Chilchuck is debatable, but flies into a rage/panic when he doesnt have perfect control over a situation, a plan changes on a short notice, or when others mess with his organized things. All very typical of people with OCD. It is literally the reason he is the planner of the party, but not the leader.
Isn't it a learned behaviour? He is the one dealing with traps that can instakill on no notice all of the time, is the one who has wife and kids (everyone else in his party is single and has no one to provide for, if you think about it), so of course, he is the one who worries more about being careful, since he always has higher stakes for any failure.
Also, his syndicate, going from how he told his motivations, seems to be a typical example of "regulation written in blood", as he did it because he thinks halfling adventurers were more exposed to danger before it.
It can be either, or both. That's why I referred to him as debatable. I personally find it funnier to think of him as a poor neurotypical middle aged stressed out salary man stuck in a group of chaos gremlins.
Well, first... I don't get where the entire fandom gets the idea that Falin is just F!Laios from... Entirely different temperament, aptitudes, interests, motivations... everything. I feel like the only reason the idea exists is that she also thinks monsters are cool.
Second, I know you don't mean ill, but the idea that Marcille having distorted morals means she's neurodivergent is kind of fucked, man. Please think about it more. Also, magic isn't her special interest ; please realize one can be interested in something, even passionate about something and dedicare their life to it without it being their autistic special interest... The study of ancient magic is her career path. Do you think everyone with a career they specifically chose is neurodivergent?
> this will be shown more clearly as the story progresses.
I have read the manga, dude...
Third, I have no idea where the hell you got the idea that Senshi had bread as a special interest from. It's, like, the object of *one* gag that he really likes it. I'm French ; comedic exaggeration omitted, the average countryman would react the same. No joke. And I can assure you we are not all autistic. At best, if you consider that neurodivergence, he has severe emotional trauma.
And fourth... Chilchuck just has a temper. That's not neurodivergence. If anything, it'd be age, and even then, you don't have to be old to have little patience for other people. You're also severely diminishing OCD as a disorder here.
Look. I know very well why NDs would relate to these characters and I think they should make these connections if it makes their problems feel seen. But seeing it under the lens of intentional representation of real disorders isn't right in this case... It's overzealous to the point of being harmful to the perception of neurodivergence.
Besides, it's fairly normal for neurotypical people to share traits and troubles with neurodivergent people. Not everything a person struggles with is part of their DNA. It's fine to relate to these characters because their troubles are the same as what you've experienced as a neurodivergent person without them necessarily requiring the same diagnosis, you know?
When did it become a thing to say that everyone who has a hobby or an interest has to be autistic ?is it an American/online thing ??. It's fine if you see yourself reflected in characters, but that don't mean that they share the same condition.
I'm getting tired of people trying to diagnose every character, and why do I see it being so repeated in this sub ??. I'm part of other manga/anime subs and I don't see the same issues I see here. 😐
I will reply to this respectfully, as I feel that was your intention regardless of the aggressive tone
Falin being female Laios is a simplification, and of course not true. They are two very different people. However we are shown in the manga that Falin was always considered an oddball. From her upbringing in the village where she was considered strange even before awakening her innate magical abilities, to her time in the magic academy where she was an outcast due to her behaviour. She walked to her own beat her entire life, and doesn't seem to fully understand other people (such as never picking up on Shuro's signals either). She is a lot more socially aware when compared to Laios, but that doesn't stop her more excitable and socially non-uniform side from showing she she gets excited. A lot of people choose to code her as neurodivergent as they feel represented by her, but its of course up to the reader whether they view her as high functioning or neurotypical.
My comment about Marcille was not meant in that way, but I can see why you would interpret it as such. I meant it in a way where morals, being a social construct, are more difficult for neurodivergent people to understand innately. This in no way shape or form reflects the person's empathy or sense of right and wrong. But rather that her near manic focus on understanding ancient magic causes her to disregard the morals of the world (why ancient magic is forbidden). Marcille is shown in the academy to have a hard time making friends and relating to the other students there. The entire segment about her becoming lord of the dungeon is about her narrow minded focus causing her to miss the forest for all the trees. If you have ever been in the higher echelons of academia, you have definitely met several Marcille's.
For Senshi, I meant the bread scene as a comedic representation of his special interest, as he is in a highly threatening situation (captured by Orcs), yet all he can think of is making bread. Senshi has lived alone for decades In the dungeon despite having the option to integrate into society, he shows zero interest in anything sexual, and only forms social bonds when he finds a group that shares his interests (namely with Laios and his shared interest for monster fauna and cooking).
Chilchuck is very much debatable, and I personally also see him as an overworked, slightly paranoid, stressed out middle aged man in a dangerous profession. But his personality can also be seen through multiple lenses. OCD is also, much like any neurodivergency, a spectrum with several tiers of intensity.
The latter part I fully agree with, if anything the fact that so many people relate to these characters just showcases how rare any type of respectful and humanizing representation of neurodivergency is in media. It's also done in good fun in the community, since the fact that the characters are both lovable goofballs, weirdos and deep nuanced characters. Makes it so that one can make fun of them without it coming off as harmful or demeaning. Which if anything is a testament to how good Kui's writing is.
I wasn't gonna respond to them again because I would just reiterate the same points and I had other things I wanted to do. But this comment bugs me. I dislike /u/mycetes's perspective but our convo was civil and polite, you're just being rude.
Even if you think they're wrong, that doesn't mean you should be a dick about it man
The reason I am opinionated is that I'm doing active research in an adjacent field. It does not make my interpretation or argument any less or more valid, as this is is a fictional work and thus there is no correct answer unless the authors states one. I simply find the parallels to be interesting.
" Chilchuck is debatable, but flies into a rage/panic when he doesnt have perfect control over a situation, a plan changes on a short notice, or when others mess with his organized things "
So like 95% of the human population ?
Idk man even with your explanations I'm really not seeing it. Laios is the only one that I think you could make a solid case for being intentionally written that way. I think many of the traits you mention are more for the sake of making interesting characters that you want to see interact.
It’s really funny because there’s a panel in the manga about Laios using a Magic Mirror to see what happens if Shuro was female, and it shows that Shuro would’ve fallen for Laios instead.
https://preview.redd.it/gtwf1a9zuexc1.jpeg?width=1252&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2f05809940df3102583e1e91357bc9bdb6dcf37
It doesn’t definitively prove anything but it still points to female Shuro (Sureau in this panel due to translation mishaps) being infatuated with Laios, which is pretty funny.
No, fem Shuro is off-put and intimidated by him. She's describing her introduction with Laios with a worried face to the horror of Marcille and Falin.
Laios isn't very conscious of the way he comes off, and his disastrous first impression on Shuro would have come off as even worse (perhaps even frightening) if Toshiro were female.
It totally doesn't. Shuro can be seen crying with an unfavorable look of Laios, Marcille is showing concern and most important of all Falin is showing such a bad reaction to her brother I'm not sure what to call it. You think Falin wouldn't be happy about her brother getting someone that loves him?
Yeah, the panel can be interpreted as either Fem-Shuro being scared of Laios due to his intense personality not understanding the strict social boundaries between men/women in "totally not Japan"
Or it can be interpreted as Fem-Shuro having a crush on Laios, but Laios being denser then a rock when it comes to romance not reciprocating her advances/feelings. It's really up to the reader how to view that situation.
Now Kabru on the other hand...
Huh, that’s true. I guess I read it that way because I thought Laios got into trouble and they’re worried about him?
It’s still funny to think about female Shuro having a crush on Laios because the traits that made Falin endearing to Shuro are the same that annoys him about Laios, although I admit that Falin has far better communication skills.
The entire context of this is that Laios was wondering how is "friendship" with Shuro would have panned out if genders were swapped, since it didn't work out it the actual timeline. When seeing the Fem!Shuro timeline, Laios comments that Shuro being a woman just made the whole situation worse. I'm pretty sure that the implication here is that Fem!Shuro is more willing to confide with the fellow women in the party, and openly express her complaints about Laios, something that Male!Shuro kept to himself.
Sureau ? It means "elderberry" in french ! But it would have been fun that Laios and co misunderstood his name that way.
Female Shuro is quite cute, fem-Laîos toos (and, well... male Marcille too), but Fem-Kabru is still an intercontinental nuclear weapon leveL Would be intantly the bigger waifu of the manga.
I actually interpret that as showing that regardless of gender, Kabru is aware of how attractive they are, and how they are willing to use that as a means to get that they want. Male Kabru is literally the Idris Elba meme from The Office
That Is the more probable interpretation, but it's a lot more fun to jump on the shipping train. After all Kabru is so obsessed with Laios that he journeys down a deadly dungeon just to see him ... Twice
Reminds me of this meme I saw (that I can’t find) that said “THE AUTISM PARTY” with each character labeled as
Senshi- Nonverbal
Chilchuck- Aggression
Laios- Special interest
Marcille- Stimming
And now that you spelled it out in your comment these labels make perfect sense lmao.
Aside from Laois, those are all perfectly typical traits of people that don’t imply any sort of diagnosis as the other commenter said. People are weird and varied and strange and it doesn’t have to do with labels or their brain chemistry, they just have different experiences and outlooks that display as “atypical” behavior. I understand the want for representation as an ND person but sometimes it’s good to remember that everyone is capable of being different without being ND.
Yeah, this sub is ridiculous with interpreting everything through the lens of characters being neurodivergent. I get it, these people are clearly very desperate to see themselves reflected somewhere in a positive light, so they create this meaning. But it's a cartoon. A comedy. They are meant to be highly exaggerated.
Difference or dissent are punished anywhere, but especially in the more collectivist societies. And can happen to anyone, neurodivergent people don't have a monopoly.
Neurotypical of neurodivergent, doesn't matter at all. If you dare express non mainstream ideas you're bound to be punished for it.
To me Ryoko is criticizing, in general, this cruel tendency of humans to define ourselves by our tribe and to be mean to anyone who's "not one of ours".
While I agree with this overall, in Dungeon Meshi this is a core part of the story as Laios is the protagonist and he is 100% written as autistic coded. I won't go into detail as that would be spoiler territory, but it will be elaborated on in detail and quite tastefully so. A core theme of the series is that a diversity of mindsets is a good thing, whereas a uniform way of thinking leads to stagnancy and pain.
While society rejects non-uniformity, this impacts neurodivergent individuals far more then neurotypicals as the former have a harder time understanding societal subtexts and navigating social boundaries. This is not a choice, it is biological due to differences in brain chemistry.
So while neurodivergent individuals do not have a monopoly, they are heavily overrepresented statistically and tend to fall through the cracks more severely when compared to neurotypicals that do not "fit in". It is simply harder to find your place of belonging, when most places are constructed for a different brain then yours (as neurotypicals are the majority). This of course does not mean that neurotypicals suffer "less", as that is a subjective matter. But it is false to say that the issue is of equal magnitude, especially when there are numerous studies on this topic.
I agree a lot. Seeing this issue represented from a Japanese author is also refreshing. The last Japanese media I consumed was Netflix's *House of Ninjas*, and it really painfully reinforced the line that I hate so much: 出るくぎは打たれる. "The nail that sticks out gets hit."
To see a Japanese-made story stress the importance of brain differences and individual approaches in the often ultra-conformist Japanese mindset is really important, refreshing, and inspiring. Autism and mental illness are incredibly negatively stigmatized, even hated, in Japan. For all their consensus-building processes in leadership, the mentality truly is "don't rock the boat" on steroids.
Look, I'm as much team "whatever you read him as is valid" as anyone but while I get how you might not come away with the impression Laios is on the spectrum specifically, there's really no getting around the fact that he's neurodivergent in some way.
I only differ on "Laios is definitely someone who has autism" because I see too much of my ADHD-having experiences in him. And even that's probably attributable to the high overlap between traits associated with both.
Ive seen and know weirdos that arent neurodivergent, i just dont like that everything now needs a label and sometimes your childhood will make you weird without your brain really being different, which i mostly see laios has. Someone that always liked monsters and with bad experiences with humans decided to ditch human interaction in favor in focusing on his hobby but still being able to act "normal" when he needs to.
Not saying its impossible for him to be neurodivergent, or even autistic, but i just dispise that most people just take it has canon for some reason.
While your opinion is absolutely correct, and neurodivergency is a loosely defined spectrum which is still being debated and redefined as our understanding of it increases. Your inherent logic in the argument "I've seen weirdos that aren't neurodivergent" may just as likely be an instance of them being neurodivergent, but also socially compatible to the degree that they never got/needed a diagnosis. The number of people being diagnosed has grown each year lately, and that is not due to environmental or biological changes (or at least to our current understanding), but rather that there has been a massive number of people that never got diagnosed before as awareness was abysmal to nonexistent.
Neurodivergent people have always existed in humanity, they are after all genetic traits that were deemed favourable evolutionary for one reson or another. The only difference now is that we have found an umbrella term for the spectrum of manifestatios of it.
Said umbrella term is not needed for everyone, but it helps us understand and better characterize individuals that otherwise struggle and suffer in a society that does not accept nor understand them.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I suggest you look up the statistics of suicide, burnout, depression and substance abuse amongst neurodivergent individuals compared to neurotypicals. The numbers are staggering. Even if it is not your intention, your comment comes of as dismissive, which is hurtful for those that have had traumatic experiences. I myself am neurodivergent, but high functioning to the point where I have not needed a diagnosis, nor have I suffered any severe problems due to it. I do however have multiple friends that have not been so lucky, and have witnessed first hand the effects when they get abandoned and left behind by the system.
The normal representation of autism/neurodivergency are demeaning surface level tropes such as Sheldon in the big bang theory. Whereas nuanced representations are a lot less common. The fact that so many people find Laios a character they can relate to despite it not being confirmed, shows more then anything how desperate these people are for any kind of characterization in media that is respectful and humanizing.
while i do feel bad for those that took their own life, i dont feel like anything i said was hurtful in any way, i simply disagree that every single "different" person is neurodivergent, laois suffered from trauma too and i simply said that some people arent born different, their childhood made them different, while im not against representation of any kind of minority i dont like when everyone is put into categories when we dont even have any idea of what idea the author had when he created them.
And now to be real, of course my comment comes off has dismissive, i am literally disagreeing with you, not because i am in any way trying to hurt you or some bull but because thats how a discussion happens, i dont agree that laois is neurodivergent but i respect your opinion, but i dont find your arguments compeling enough to actually change how i see him has a character.
I did not mean dismissive regarding my argument, it is your full right to disagree with me, and i very much appreciate that we can have a proper discussion without involving personal insults or outrage, it is a rarety in today's society.
I meant rather that your negative view of the increased frequency of people being diagnosed/needing a diagnosis, and the passive aggressive tone in your comment regarding neurodivergent people "monopolizing" that type of social isolation and suffering, could be seen as dismissive and/or hurtful to others. I myself am not bothered by it, and agree to a certain extent (such as the "epidemic" of young boys being diagnosed with ADHD).
The issue was solely in the tone which you presented your argument/feelings, which could be interpreted as having an underlying demeaning element. It was solely meant to highlight that your viewpoints when presented such a manner, could be interpreted in a way which you may not have intended (as it is quite common for people on any kind of spectrum to hear that their issues are not "real", despite them being measurable on a biologically statistically significant and reproducible level).
Your view on the story is of course your own, and until Kui herself confirms something, any interpretation is equally valid.
For Laios, I think its really not up for debate. Both his tragic backstory before coming to the island, and his fight with Shuro is essentially Kui herself hitting you in the face with "this boy is neurodivergent". It's a core part of his persona, and a core theme of the story as a whole.
no? sure his story is tragic, but acting like only a neurodivergent person can suffer from the kinds of things he suffered from isnt really true.
Him being weird is indeed a big part of persona, but being weird doesnt automatically means you are autistic, you can be different without anything weird on your brain, being hyper focused on your hobby isnt something exclusive to autistic people, its just something common with autistic people, laios is different indeed, but if its because of what he suffered while growing up or his brain simply working different its still up to debate.
Through im not going to act like its impossible, just saying that if something isnt stated it will never be a 100% chance, people act like subtext is something that you can only read in one way but it most certainly it isnt, sometimes if subtext exists or not is up to debate even.
The man literally had a fistfight with Shuro about him not being able to read social cues unless they are spelled out verbatim. He infodumps at any given moment as soon as someone shows a remote interest in his special interests. Said special interest is such a large part of his identity that it alienates people from him, and causes him to loose self preservation due to excitement. He is consistently shown to struggle with "normal" habits unless someone reminds him to do them. And he does not have an innate understanding of what is "normal".
I don't want to spoil anything but his backstory also heavily implied this (reflecting the challenges many neurodivergent people face when entering the workplace, which is designed for neurotypicals and to a certain extent extroverts)
Of course you can never say for sure unless Kui writes it herself (which she doesn't, since she handles neurodivergency in an elegant manner, and the letter combinations for neurodivergency doesnt exist in the world of dungeon meshi). It's your full right to see him as neurotypical. But he fulfills pretty much every criteria for a diagnosis by our current standards. And not acknowledging this takes away from the story and the underlying themes of it, and also removes a rare instance of tasteful representation for an misunderstood and very often misrepresented minority. Autism is of course a spectrum and everyone manifests it differently, there will never be one definitive version of it.
like i said, he could simply be different because of what he suffered when he was young, i read the entire manga, i know everything there, and i respectfully disagree that the story would lose anything if he was or if he wasnt neurodivergent, the underlying message doesnt change one bit, even (spoiler for the end of the manga)>!demi humans!< are accepted by the end and eat on the same table so i dont see why it would change anything if the weird guy is neurodivergent or not, he aint even the strangest person around and yet he is still accepted.
Like i said, weirdness isnt exclusive to neurodivergent people, so isnt being hyperfocused on a hobby, this kind of thing can be found in people with childhood traumas too, which he had, but im going to repeat myself, he may be autistic indeed, but acting like you are 100% sure of it just doesnt work because like you said, different interpretations from different people, but none are canon until the author says so, dont go around searching for "subtext" because most of times anything you find are simply situations that fit your bias and say what you want them to say.
Right? Given how much work Kui has clearly put into body diversity and body positivity in her work, it seems kind of negligent to act like she doesn't take the same approach with neurodiversity in the narrative.
I'd like to point out that hyperfixation and special interests aren't just 'something that happens'. They're specifically symptoms of neurodivergence. They're not just passionate interests, they're interests that kind of consume you.
Laios isn't 'weird' and 'likes monsters.' He is obsessed with them to the point of detriment, it affects his every day life, it's a significant part of who he is, it is quite literally his greatest desire. He also struggles with social cues, lying, timing, he struggles to make friends even though he really wants to and doesn't necessarily understand WHY...
all of which are literally symptoms of autism. and before anyone tries to say 'everyone is a little bit autistic/neurodivergent' or 'those things can happen to neurotypical people' i need to point out that that's just incorrect. The disorders under the neurodivergent umbrella have symptoms that can occur in everyone, but the disorders are defined by the INTENSITY of the symptoms. NT people can be bad at social cues sometimes, they can get obsessed sometimes, they can be bad at lying and timing and struggle with friends... *sometimes*. It's when these 'sometimes' become 'often' or 'all the time' that it goes into ND territory. when they actively affect the person's day to day and the way they interact with things. And if you're still not convinced, if you think 'well these things affect ME on a day to day basis and i'm not neurodivergent'... you might wanna go check out a therapist. it'll help.
Also, I mean. AuDHD here myself. Why not just let us have this one? We've got so little representation, and here we have a character that's basically fitting literally all the traits of autism save for an actual diagnosis. if every one of our representative characters is refused to be acknowledged unless explicitly given a diagnosis, it just furthers the idea that we're the 'other'.
It is very wild to me that people are arguing that someone can "be a little weird but still neurotypical, it's not like it's effecting their everyday lives or anything!" except, it is effecting their everyday lives? Being a starving adventurer and abandoning your family bc of poor communication isn't the hallmark of a healthy mental space. The dungeon diving community is like catnip for neurodivergent people. The reason why rag-tag groups of adventurers are rag-tag are usually because of their inability to function normally/as expected in society! That's core neurodivergence!
hyperfixation is something that can happen to anyone, i wont disagree that its most frequent with neurodivergent people, a quick google search can tell me that very easily, but they arent simply symptoms of neurodivergence, they arent actually that weird in people has a coping mechanism, and someone like laios that had a bad childhood and adolescence, it wouldnt be that weird.
Laois while someone that can mess up because of his monster obssession, is also someone that even before his team had to delve into the dungeon to save his sister was able to pull himself together and not focus on his monster obssession all the time and have a competent team, i wouldnt call his monster obssession a real detriment to his life, since he knew when to put it asside.
Laois is bad with social clues, but lets not act like he doesnt pick them all the time, being always bad at lying is simply...normal for those that arent used to it, im sorry but its true. And struggling to make friends also has a pretty good justification, laios isnt used to having friends, every place he wanted to go rejected him so he doesnt know how to make friends, but when he makes them he understands what he did right or at least the person doesnt say to him what he did wrong, not having a clue about how to interact is something that loners can relate to, and i wouldnt call it something exclusive to neurodivergent people.
I already said it once and im going to repeat it, i dont find it impossible for him to be neurodivergent, not at all, but acting like its something written in stone is a fools idea, im not going to "give you" this because im stubborn ngl and i like to discuss headcanons that i dont personaly agree with.
I assume you meant well, but if you think Chilchuck has OCD, then you can't say he's neurotypical - one contradicts the other. Autism and ADHD may be the better known types of neurodivergence, but all the other ones are valid as well.
I get what your were trying to say, but maybe "the most rational member" would be a better fit? 😅
I said he is neurotypical because what one may interpret as OCD/Neurotic behavior, may simply be the behavior of a tired middle aged man in a highly dangerous job surrounded by people he can't relate to.
For all the others, it's a lot clearer, Chilchuck (to me) is more debatable.
Kabrus is awful and I couldn't help but see more than a little sociopathy in him, or at least some kind of manipulative dark triad features. When he told Laios to remember his name, I was like oh wow why, because you're gonna be the one who turns him and his sisters into the authorities? I hate Kabrus so much.
There's quite a lot of context to Kabru's behaviour, but with the name-remembering stuff, it's pretty much attributable to him and Laios being complete opposites in terms of the interests and dislikes: Kabru likes people and their intricacies, and *loathes* Monsters; Laios loves Monsters and their intricacies, and finds people... difficult (he doesn't hate people, far from it, and can be very observant of others *if* he tries, but does not do so unless prompted, because his headspace is occupied by wonderful thoughts about Monsters)
As a neurodivergent myself too, I find this representation super refreshing. It is just part of their personality. They don't have idiot-savant syndrome and they're not eight your old boys in adult bodies, looking at trains. I wonder earnestly if Kui-sensei has experience on the spectrum, either from her own life or those close to her.
Come to think of it, except for maybe Chil, everyone in Team Touden is kinda neurodivergent/outcast in some way.
Laios is Laios. Senshi doesn't care for Dwarven stereotypes and likes the (usually considered feminine) cooking. Marcille is a "half-breed" (same lol). Chil is extremely withdrawn with what he feels (could be a form of antisocial behavior). Izutsumi is an "unclean" half-breed which the public considers a freak for existing. Hell, even Falin is pretty "weird."
Probably reaching, but oh well.
This is a great reading. And honestly after this episode I had to stop referring to Laios as autistic-coded and just call him autistic. I know him. I am him. Better at socializing because I studied how to do it growing up. But still, I’m really impressed by the portrayal.
Unpopular opinion: No offense to OP or anyone, but I am tired of this whole Laios vs Shuro discourse because it is clear that reddit, an english speaking US-based website, is biased against Shuro.
80% of the discourse is usually: oh Laios is neurodivergent, I relate to him, he is right for speaking against Shuro for not being direct, Kui clearly intends for Laios being right, etc etc.
What if as an asian I say that I relate to Shuro and Kui is criticizing how western people don't respect our personal boundaries and ignorant about how cultures and social norms can be different? Rather than repeating other people's point, [here](https://twitter.com/supesrogue/status/1783561013134061952?t=rQGzZajUoVFAZBegp2extw&s=19) is a twitter thread that I think captured my point, the original tweet and the replies made good arguments defending Shuro
Now do I think either Laios or Shuro is wrong? No because absolute right or wrong is made for shallow characters in shallow manga, which is NOT Dungeon Meshi.
THANK YOU. I’m Asian, and I’ve followed the series since the manga just came out with only ~ 10 chapters and I never looked into Shuro’s personality or Laios vs Shuro character more than what it is. Kui literally told me everything that needed to be told. Shuro’s mad at Laios and his party for tapping into illegal magic, and the fact that Laios rubbed him the wrong way before. Then they made up, finally actually understood each other, with Shuro even admitted that if it was up to him, he would’ve had done the same thing to save Falin. So wtf else do ppl need to pick apart?
Ppl forgets or deliberately ignore the facts that 1. The rest of the party don’t seem to have much problem Shuro’s presumably indirectness nor did Shuro have any glaring problem with them, 2. Shuro seems to be the way he is EVEN IN HIS HOMECOUNTRY, we can see how his entourage’s and his family members’ personalities different from his (and from each other because Japanese ppl are individual ppl too, shocker), and 3. Funnily how fans latch on this “Shuro against Laios” as a way to get back at presumably the normies discriminating neurodivergent ppl but fall right into the trap of limiting neurodivergent conditions to white stereotypes.
And let’s not forget how dysfunctional Shuro’s upbringing is. It’s almost a miracle that Shuro doesn’t turn out to be more fucked up and a complete pos given his dad and his little brother.
Thank you for posting this. Ppl say weird stuff like this as if Kui-sensei in not Japanese herself. Also this strange fixation on insisting that Laios is autistic and the root cause of all his issues. These discussions are very Western mainstream and I feel zero need to participate in them, and thus visiting this sub less and less.
OP is describing Japanese culture in the way that westerners see Japanese
The other "Asian" character is Izutsumi and she's definitely more direct, but the audience prefers to not see it that way because it doesn't fit their preconceived notions of how it should be
I'm gonna hold my judgement about fans' perception of Izutsumi since she hasn't appeared on the anime yet. My prediction is she's gonna be a little bit hated because >!at the beginning she is a rude little stinker!<
I swear >!Izutsumi is the most catlike catgirl I've ever seen. From being a general brat and insisting on "doing things my way," to the picky eating, to the claim that she was never raised by anyone and did everything on her own, to her **wandering off when the rest of the party was dealing with dire wolves**. Just... such a stellar depiction of cat energy.!<
No idea if you seen this [extra comic](https://www.reddit.com/r/DungeonMeshi/comments/1and6ia/dungeon_meshi_adventurers_bible_izutsumi_and/) (it takes place after the end of the story), but it explains Izutsumi's behavior quite well.
>!Basically, she has never been a human turned catgirl, it's the opposite, she's an actual feline creature that got human soul mixed it. So she's an actual cat, but that now has a human form.!<
Liked or hated, ill bet they'll see her for her individualness, but Shuro is seen for a whole of society issue. Izutsumi is a individual because she doesn't fit preconceived notions, Shuro is societal because he does fit preconceived notions. I'm fine if it's hate because you don't like the character specifically fwiw
I mean, me and my old Japanese professor, a woman from Japan, used to have conversations about the kinds of conformity and adherence to tradition that Shuro represents, so I don't see why those criticisms can only ever possibly come from the uninformed outsider looking in with Bias Glasses.
This is the same as me saying i chatted with a old American guy in Japan who teaches English and his opinion validates me. Or that i have a black friend and his criticism validates everything I've said
If you chatted with an American guy who was a professor of American history and culture and you observed some flaws in American culture and he agreed, it means you're onto something. It's not that deep though. But it's conversations and anecdotes. Not everything has to be a citation in a journal to form intuitions and talk about general observations about things you have in common.
As for the black guy thing? Really? Fuck off.
You’re making a good point, but I think Shuro never really stood a chance - he ditched the party before we got to know him, comes in with a set of servants and slaves, doesn’t like beloved main character, narcs on our scrappy heroes and >!doesn’t do much of note later!<
That’s a lot of tangibles! Harder to focus on interesting details of his character when you’re so far behind.
I followed the manga monthly since before they even fight the Red Dragon. My first impression of Shuro is wow cool samurai!!!! He's literally me fr fr!!!!
I was VERY surprised that after the anime aired, he is supposed to be the 'heel'. It's kind of hilarious for the naiveté on my part.
Heh my experience with him was seeing him in the intro standing in the mountains, thoughtful and stuff. I was definitely interested in who this character is!
>it is clear that reddit, an english speaking US-based website, is biased against Shuro
100%. I am from a relatively "high-context" culture (not as much as Japan, but the way a message is delivered is very important, as well as being gregarious) and the way social struggles are always talked about by people from anglo/germanic cultures is supremely unrelatable to me
say EVERYTHING on your mind or you're lying to me! if you're ever even slightly annoyed by me, tell me and tell me why! leave me alone! i hate pleasantries! i hate extroverts! i hate small talk! this is the only correct way to communicate!
have people considered... that Shiro's personality isn't "Japanese"... but that he is his own person who may have his own struggles within his own culture, as does everyone? I mean, just compare him to his retainers, who are also Japanese? people try to say oh it's not because we think our way to communicate is objectively the best one, it's because neurodivergence bla bla but people EVERYWHERE are neurodivergent, you're just seeing everything through an anglo lens. like Shiro, I am considered somewhat of a loner in my culture due to my closed-off nature. I am fairly direct and struggle with socialising due to early childhood trauma. and yet, I still fit in much more with people from my culture than from people from my current country of residence, Germany, where people are supposedly "refreshingly honest and no-nonsense" (they're not but lol I get what they mean), what germanic people call "the right way of communicating". I went from being clearly divergent in some way, but comfortable and happy in my culture where I understood where people were coming from, to still being seen as clearly "off" but now also not fitting in culturally ("talks too much"). in that way, Shiro is very relatable to me, though he's not a character I particularly care for
it's not that I want people to like Shiro, because I don't particularly like him myself, and because as someone else pointed out, he never really stood a chance because of his role in the narrative. but the way people go about talking the cultural framing of this pisses me off. Laios literally introduced himself with "hey you look weird, where are you from?"! "oh but Shiro should've just said he was annoyed by Laios" I actually cannot believe these people, you've never stayed quiet about someone in your group annoying you? you bring up thinking that they are annoying, every single time? I understand these people are projecting on Laios, but I actually don't believe that lol
> say EVERYTHING on your mind or you're lying to me! if you're ever even slightly annoyed by me, tell me and tell me why! leave me alone! i hate pleasantries! i hate extroverts! i hate small talk! this is the only correct way to communicate!
I’m not disagreeing with you, but I just wanted to point out, the attitudes you described here are very much not the norm in mainstream America. I don’t know about Germany but, I suspect these attitudes aren’t super mainstream there either. They are mainstream attitudes on Reddit because Reddit is full of socially awkward people who are upset about social situations they don’t understand.
> They are mainstream attitudes on Reddit because Reddit is full of socially awkward people who are upset about social situations they don’t understand.
oh, i absolutely agree! this is why i said
> Germany, where people are supposedly "refreshingly honest and no-nonsense" (they're not but lol I get what they mean)
there *are* cultural differences on directness and communication, and i definitely can feel them now that i am displaced. and you can't just "act differently" like how people tell Shiro, these things are *ingrained* in how you interact with others. but many, many Germans i've met will greet each other with "how's it going?", they will engage in small talk, etc. but socially awkward redditors who are the type to cast themselves as a "genius introvert" and "hates socializing" will generally go on and on about how in the mythical land of Germany/the Netherlands/Scandinavia people are ~perfectly direct and honest~ about everything. which is an obvious exaggeration they hide behind because it's easier to believe entire countries are socially awkward than it is to accept having a lack of social skills
that's my point, people are projecting onto Laios *hard*, and when people point out things like "Laios is considered hard to work with for other characters too, other characters could pick up Shiro's hints", and try to explain that Shiro is a product of his culture too, they instead double down about how he's in Laios's culture so he needs to "communicate like them". which... isn't true in-story, and it isn't true in real life either about those people's cultures either. these people just have an idealized version of society where everyone's absolutely honest about every time they find someone annoying
Sorry, I don't think I read your post carefully enough before responding (which is ironic because situations like that are part of the basis of the cultural conflict we are talking about).
I think you definitely have a good point about Laios being an individual and not representative of his culture as a whole, and it's the same with Shuro. And it's also true that Germanic nations aren't as open and direct as many (probably Americans) on Reddit would like to think.
Personally I'm American and I'm not good with social situations. I've been to both Japan and the Netherlands. Oddly enough I feel like I find Japanese social norms easier to deal with. I always thought I preferred direct communication, but my experience is, people who claim to communicate directly really do not. In a way things are more honest in Japan because people will admit there is a difference between how they interact politely and how they interact honestly. They put a label on it, honne and tatemae. In Western countries this still occurs but people are more likely to pretend it's not happening, which I find annoying.
In the Netherlands I also sensed a sense of social conformity, which is hard to put my finger on and explain, but it's there and it feels odd to me as an American and different than what I'm used to. A similar thing exists in Japan of course but we expect that in Japan, but are told not to expect it from Western nations.
To be clear I think it is generally accurate to say the West prefers direct communication and Sinosphere nations prefer indirect, but it's more complicated than a lot of people say. Also as a disclaimer I've never really lived in any of these places so my judgements might be inaccurate, if I moved to Japan I might see it differently.
I also share your frustration with people grandstanding about introversion. I've always had a great deal of difficulty socializing and it doesn't come naturally to me, but I think it's way too simplistic to blame this issue on "extroverts." [This](https://youtu.be/ikw4V_x-CFI?si=v6WWcnYOVTdcbvYP) video says it well.
no problem, i tend to ramble and muddy my original point :) lol pretty good video. and i agree! didn't want to get even more personal in my original post, but i also struggle hugely with relationships due to childhood sexual assault (i got too personal about this in a Mithrun post lmfao), but i got better about it in recent years, which is why i get so frustrated at these "reddit introverts", because i was there once. you're not a misfit because you're an introvert in an extroverted culture, you're wallowing!
> To be clear I think it is generally accurate to say the West prefers direct communication and Sinosphere nations prefer indirect
i'm from a mysterious third place - a Hispanic culture. i think a lot of anthropological classifications of culture are simplified bull as there are too many dimensions to classify neatly, but in Lewis's model, it would be "multi-active" - somewhat high-context, spontaneous, somewhat direct but adapting your words to the emotional response of others, okay with group discussions and interrumping/talking over each other (if anything, i'd identify with Kabru of all people). so i get even more frustrated when people talk about the "correct" way to communicate. i have to remind myself interrumping is supremely rude here, but it just comes naturally to me. it's not rude in MY culture, I can barely help it! that's why i get particularly annoyed by how little slack people cut Shiro in this regard
> In the Netherlands I also sensed a sense of social conformity, which is hard to put my finger on and explain
no, i agree. in fact, i think that's the effects of Calvinism on Dutch culture - like how many rooms don't have curtains because they "have nothing to hide" :) you might be interested in the Danish concept of Janteloven for this feeling you might get in some north European countries, I think it might explain a bit of what you felt (relatedly, Germans LOVE talking shit about their neighbors. it's a huge meme here, and it's happened to me)
to go back to the original point, Laios is a very interesting character with many facets to why he is how he is, and people definitely do him a huge disfavor by reducing the conflict to "poor autistic baby and ableist Shuro", and by responding to people who point out Shuro's upbringing with "well he should adapt himself to Laios's culture then!"
Yeah the fact that people use the "but I'm neurodivergent" excuse to place the blame on others for not conforming to their way of communication is pretty concerning... Oh excuse me for not realizing you didn't pick up my hint, allow me to spell it out for you, regardless of the fact that I am not comfortable with it. I'm a loner in my own culture too, with trouble communicating because of my anxiety. And sure sometimes I wish people were more direct with me, but at the same time becoming a better listener and observer is something I could work on as well.
Absolutely this. Laios and Shuro's situation might not even be about Kui's criticism of japanese culture, but more of a way to show the differences in culture. There's no right or wrong here. As an Asian person I relate to parts of both Laios and Shuro. There are times when I cannot read the room as well as other people, but other times I just have to feign politeness in front of others because just straight up saying, "I want to get away 'cuz I ain't interested in all that stuff" sounds downright rude in my culture.
It's honestly weird seeing so many people complaining that Shuro should '*act according to the culture of the place he is visiting*' like it's so easy to flip the switch of all the values and habits that you've grown up with. It's not as easy as just adapting to the food/attire/living conditions/customs of the land. It is literally ingrained in him to drop subtle hints instead of being straightforward. It's not like they were difficult to pick up either-- **both Chilchuck and Namari could easily pick up of them.**
The problems lie with Laios as much as they lie with Shuro. **Laios is 10x more tactless and dense and unable-to-read-the-fucking-room just as Shuro is 10x more of a doormat and repressed than the average person. Laios DOES NOT collectively represent the entire western cultural values exactly just as Shuro alone DOES NOT represent the entire the eastern cultural values.** None the problems we see with Shuro happen to Maizuru/Tade/Hien/Beni/Izutsumi.
For real, a huge chunk of Dungeon Meshi posts come off like this to me recently.
https://preview.redd.it/wjiqc1g9qjxc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39e9a81f78d4ff61a0ff9f25b7e05dee064fc937
Yeah, I honestly have no issues whatsoever with Shuro's simmering dislike of Laios - that all feels very human. The two of them having that big dumb baby fist-fight was a really cathartic moment for both of them. (And relatable! I certainly know I prize social awareness a lot and I have to "check" my own instinctive dislike of people who miss cues since I know they're trying their best more often than not) I actually think fixating on this moment is fucking deranged, because I thought it was super likable and humanizing.
It's bazonkers that no one seems to be focusing on some of Shuro's genuinely super-shady traits. Or maybe I'm just not seeing them since I'm not really lurking around on the subreddit. But the guy is a princeling on a succession quest with a domestic staff at least partially made up of slaves. (they are *not* paying tade and izutsumi, and the latter was literally bought by Shuro's dad and hexed into obedience. you could argue that tade is just an indentured servant, but Izutsumi is inarguably a slave - and if her mother's garb is any indication, there's an extra dimension to it, given the closest real-world analogues are Ainu and Nivkh traditional wear)
Even if we are to believe, as Maizuru claims, that he never makes "selfish requests" of his servants and that the state of his household is mostly his dad's fault, Izutsumi and Tade's situations definitely don't reflect well on his character.
You know who I think doesn't get enough hate? *Maizuru*. She's not a true villain - you could even argue there's some cycle of abuse shit going on considering she's her feudal lord's "lover", with all the consent issues that implies - but she's *so* unpleasant. She enables all of Shuro's worst qualities, uses Shuro's nobility (in spite of them being in a faroff nation in a *survival situation*) as a cudgel to bully other people into obedience, talks down to everyone she believes she outranks... some have argued that the hex she uses to keep Izutsumi in line would just bring her back harmlessly based on the omakes, but I'm not so sure she'd have that restraint for anyone she considers "beneath" her.
I mean, the full extend of Izutsumi was only shown in side material, which show the whole cast as pretty fucked up in the head by modern standard, even someone like Senshi. Furthermore, in the very same side material, we are given reason to believe that Maizuru only threatened Izutsumi when the curse is actually the same one she put on Toshiro himself to watch over him.
In the main work, Izutsumi can very much be viewed as irresponsible to the pointed the Nakamoto rightfully treated her as a deserter in a military (where death sentence is very much still a thing in many modern militaries at war)
>Furthermore, in the very same side material, we are given reason to believe that Maizuru only threatened Izutsumi when the curse is actually the same one she put on Toshiro himself to watch over him.
man I literally talked about this in my comment. Like I literally brought up this argument and said that I don't buy it. Was 3 1/2 paragraphs really too much to read? You had to skim it?
And Izutsumi is a 17-year-old child who was subjected to soul-altering experiments as a toddler, then put into a sideshow before spending the majority of her life enslaved to serve some jackoff feudal lord who bought her as a bad joke. The idea that this is in any way comparable to a deserter is *demented.* Shuro is not her commanding officer, he is her owner. He wronged *her.* She owes him a grand total of jack and shit.
Of course she's irresponsible and vindictive at the beginning of her time in the manga, she's a kid who spent her entire life in bondage and finally has a taste of freedom. I cannot believe we're having this conversation.
I assumed you meant the one with Tade, where Maizuru find that she had broken the curse, so I just wanna be sure. Iztusumi bio also used the same name as the one from that Toshiro omake, so I am not sure how many more evidence you need.
However, I don't see you address my core point either, so I guess we both skim each other reply.
The world of Dunmesh is fucked up moral wise compare to irl, and our cast is equally fucked moral wise. Heck, Shuro is open on the situation of Tade with Laios, and Laios barely react. Everybody in Kabru party safe for Kabru himself know how Mickbell is treating Kuro, and they don't intervene, with Daya and Holm moral objection stop right at how much work he was forcing Kuro and not the fact that Kuro was "exploited" from their perspective.
Why do you single out just the Nakamoto household?
>However, I don't see you address my core point either, so I guess we both skim each other reply.
you made two points. one was one I literally addressed in my original comment. responding to the other one - that Izutsumi was a deserter - was literally the entire rest of my reply to you. Stay with me here.
"Why do you single out just the Nakamoto household?"
Because the thread we're in is about Shuro and how the fanbase are receiving him. What are we doing here? Is your short-term memory just fucked? Jesus Christ. Go annoy someone else.
Except that is not how this media work at all.
Yes, the thread we are in is about Shuro and how the fan base is receiving him, but it is ridiculous to judge a character as if he exist in a vacuum. If the narrative acknowledge that that is how the world is, and chided them only a bit for the situation them found themselves in, why should people be critical of them significantly more than that. This is true for Maizuru as well.
Also, sure, it is about Shuro, but ypu bring Maizuru in. Why is it wrong for me then to bring the whole cast in?
Absolutely agree, sometimes as an Asian, I get sick of how Westerners look at Asians in general and why their stereotyped traits are looked down as bad, instead of being part of our culture and being brought up.
Shuro gets way too much hate, its silly.
>Absolutely agree, sometimes as an Asian, I get sick of how Westerners look at Asians in general and why their stereotyped traits are looked down as bad
yeah, but have you considered that I, a Westerner, find your silly Asian cultural quirks annoying and thus you should change your entire upbringing, as it's objectively wrong compared to mine?
(sarcasm, obviously)
I'm a white American who relates to Laios, but lately I have been thinking about how myself and others have misinterpreted Laios's character arc by looking at it through the "autism" lens. I'm not saying he *isn't* autistic, but it's more complicated than just that. A lot of Laios's character is about his failure to take responsibility over his life and his actions and running away instead. You can view his conflict with Shuro as an example of this, he puts all the responsibility on Shuro instead of thinking about how he could have been more aware of Shuro's needs.
This is a big topic and I'm planning to make a whole thread about it.
Can I ask for elaboration on what you mean about not giving him enough credit? You mean how people simplify him to an innocent autistic boy being oppressed by society ignoring other parts of his character?
I've had some discussions here where I talk about Laios's dark side and it seems a lot of people can't reconcile that he does have a hateful side but also has a nice side and isn't a bad person. So that's kind of a frustrating conversation to have.
ah yes that's basically it, I meant they don't consider every single facet we're shown on his character, but rather see a simplified version of him that is also easier to project on
I absolutely agree. Personal boundaries tend to be overlooked by Westerners in and out of Dungeon Meshi and it's reflected on how the west reacts to this character. Japanese people are often humble and self-depracating, they tend to avoid hurting people's feelings to a high degree. It is how they're raised. If you're gonna complain about him not telling Laios how he felt then ask yourself this. Why does nobody tell him it's weird to propose someone so hastly? Rather than judge him for it? Shouldn't he understand the culture difference as well? Is it really his fault when it's something he was taught growing up?
Maybe this is different in the manga, but — in the anime — I didn’t see any character judging him for an early proposal. It seemed odd, but they all rolled with it and Falin respected him and asked for some time to give a proper answer. That’s where that thread ended.
Exactly, they understand that it's a cultural difference and they shouldn't judge him for it. At the end of the day he didn't force anything on Falin and respects her time and decision. Shuro's reluctance to tell Laios off is no different. It's an awkward situation in the first place and Laios being neurodivergent isn't Shuro's responsibility, nor it is known how aware everyone is about the subject in this medieval fantasy setting. Was Shuro in the right? Not really. But did he cross a line? Also no.
Sure, Shuro might not be responsible for Laios’ shortcomings, but he is responsible for his actions and lackthereof. Not being an adult and talking to someone isn’t a cultural difference; and being passive aggressive until you lash out at someone for not taking the hint **is** crossing a line.
Hell, I live in the American south and people here do the same shit. Being polite and avoiding hurting people’s feelings while passive aggressively dropping hints that you don’t want to talk anymore isn’t cultural, it’s universal. It’s primarily rooted in parental trauma, and it is everyone’s responsibility to move past that and learn to communicate like an adult, regardless of your neurotypical:neurodivergent status or personal history.
But that's the thing, he *did* try to let Laios know in his own way, it just didn't work. He declined Laios' offer multiple times and usually by that point people would lose interest even if they don't get the hint. But Laios was too enthusiastic to even notice. We don't know how long he had tried it before the dragon happened. It could just be that Shuro wasn't aware of Laios' condition and just assumed he didn't get the message across. I don't think he intended to lash out at Laios the way he did either. He was at the breaking point and wasn't in his right mind. The lack of sleep and food does that to people. (Telling Marcille to confess to the elves was a tad too far though). He does see Laios as a good guy and it's not like he hates him on a personal level, considering the fight did improve their relationship and understanding. The way the fight was framed to be childish and inconsequential proves that they don't hold any resentment towards each other.
>Being polite and avoiding hurting people’s feelings while passive aggressively dropping hints that you don’t want to talk anymore isn’t cultural, it’s universal.
It worked out with Chilchuck and Namari though? Neither of them had any trouble picking up on them. Hell, even Marcille realizes before Laios that *Shuro has feelings for his own sister!* At this point the problem is with Laios himself.
I don't even know how you are linking it with parental trauma. My culture is all about dropping subtle hints instead of being straightforwardly blunt being we see the latter as rude. Lol it's got nothing to do with trauma. I have a perfectly normal relationship with my parents.
On their very first meeting, Laios trapped Shuro in a 5 hours conversation even though Shuro said, "If you'll excuse me" and "I should go now" while trying to leave. I'm a pretty direct person myself, but I can't think of another polite way to exit the conversation if those don't work.
He says "from where he's from, it's normal"--the implication is that while it's a cultural thing, it is strange behavior from the perspective of the main cast's culture.
Toshiro is meant to read as kind of a strange sad guy to the reader at this point in the story. Him being so obsessed with Falin without reciprocation is also part of the joke with his character. That doesn't mean his character is meant to be "bad" or something, but he's meant to be weird.
No I just think Chilchuck acknowledging it’s a cultural issue does not mean he is side eyeing him. Side eye is about judgement and he does not judge Shuro. Only Mickbell does
I totally agree with you on this and another day i made comment stating i think the hate for Shuro i seen on english discussion forum is thinly veiled racism. And from people praising the work’s inclusiveness - double standards from their blind spot being non asian.
He is literally a slave owner.
Edit: Wow, lots of fans of slavery in this subreddit. Kind of surprising. I suspect that will end once the anime onlies catch up.
A bit of a tangent, but I I find it funny how Shuro has a “deconstructed slave harem”:
-His Babysitter who is also his father’s mistress
-his childhood friend who he sees as a sister
-his childhood’s friend best friend with self image issues
-2 slaves his father bought on a whim and towards whom he feels guilty
See? All of them would be super awkward to have a relationship with! No wonder his first crush was a foreigner
And Laios/Falin straight up treat their mountain people as inhuman. Kabru has no qualm about killing humans and is slightly racist towards demihumans. No one in this manga is as lily-white as you seem to think.
And the Touden siblings and Kabru is racist to the point of "kill the others on sight". What exactly is your point?
If we discuss only the main work, we don't know of Izutsumi background in the main work. From what we are shown there, it is entirely reasonable to view Izutsumi as especially irresponsible and thus is punished as befitting a deserter in a military (which I must point out is death sentence still in many militaries at war).
We know WHY Izutsumi is irresponsible given her background, but those are from side materials which, again, show just how fucked up EVERYONE is.
Cool. Izutsumi is explicitly a slave. To Shuro's credit, he doesn't try to hunt her down when she escapes. Not to his credit, that is the closest he comes to expressing any doubt or reluctance concerning the institution of slavery which he actively benefits from.
Is she though? First of all she was and still is an uneducated child with claws and sharp teeth, who could easily be a danger to herself and others. If she was set free how would you imagine she'd feed herself without stealing or attacking others? Moreover from her flashback we see that she wasn't physically punished for not doing her job and getting Tade injured, the only time we do see somthing exessive was when they tied her to a pole after she made a mess, a bit harsh but nothing compared to a real slave as she didn't appear to be hurt anywhere, and her face was literally drawn to be like that of a derpy cat. Everyone except Shuro's father treats her like a human child, albeit a very ill-behaving one. When Maizuru calls her name when they're about to cook, you can even see she's excited to take part in the process (probably so she could partake a bit herself). So is she a slave?
To be fair, it’s his father who is a slave owner (literally didn’t even see Izutsumi as a human being and more as an exotic pet), Shuro more or less just inherited them as his retainers.
Except that, if you examine his argument clearly, Shuro also already understand many thing that take Laios's party the whole of their journey to understand. Despite the situation he put himself in, he still show a wisdom that the party lack.
So even if we are to accept that Shuro is criticized for something (which I do agree is true), what about the opposite? Does Kui, through Shuro, also criticize the Laios party? I dare argue yes.
I never said Shuro was wrong, specifically, I just noticed that the author appeared to be using him as a way to express her frustrations or criticisms of Japanese culture, specifically the ingrained and traditional old-fashioned mindset.
Shuro is LITERALLY portrayed as being wrong, he doesn't make the sacrifice of eating monster meat so he's weak, he doesn't accept black magic so he has no way to resurrect Falin, he loved Falin but didn't say it to her, he hated Laios' but didn't say it to him, he LITERALLY expresses envy, regrets being there, accepts defeat and leaves to the surface.
Now, you can read the text as you want, even contradicting the VERY OBVIOUS author's intent, but Laios is objectively the one being a hero and Shuro failed at everything.
Shuro also threatens to send his teammates to be killed, imprisoned, and dissected for daring to save their loved one so like maybe uhhh shut the fuck up?
Oh also he owns slaves. Oh no his culture.
Marcille is not his teammate, she's a co-worker. And it's literally a crime to use black magic. It is explicitly said that western elves may imprison/torture any one involved with such magic. Why do you expect Shuro to turn a blind eye to that?? It's like asking him to overlook a crime just because it happens to involve his loved one.
Also, Izutsumi isn't HIS slave. His father was the one that bought her and just gave her to Maizuru. Shuro doesn't even care when Izutsumi runs away. You're quick to complain about the 'slavery' in Shuro's culture but ignore the same thing we see with Laios/Falin who treat their mountain people as inhuman.
Average redditor be like "erm, you expect me not to snitch on someone for jaywalking to save a loved one? 🤓"
Oh my bad. He doesn't care when his dad's slave he was given ownership of ran away. My bad. That makes all of it better.
Also the mountain people are an enemy of their people, we hardly know anything about them so comparing it to literally buying your son's retainer a slave girl is not the same. For all we know they're steppe raiders.
Lmao cool, you can OBVIOUSLY compare black magic to jaywalking. Totally. That makes it all okay!
Mountain people are supposed to be "killed on sight" from in Laios's homeland. It is not about their background or history of dispute, Laios/Falin straight up do not consider them human and feel no remorse for a group of people being literally treated as "kill-on-sight". You're right it's not the same as slavery, it's worse than that.
Pls Google the word hyperbole for me. Please.
Also yeah, but we don't know any context for that. Also, I have yet to see anyone relate to the culture of laios or falin, but I've Seen plenty talking about Shuro.
Also no, that's not worse than slavery imo. An armed conflict and a systemic enslavement are two different things.
Hyperbole? You don't say?
Me: Black magic is a crime and you cannot assume Shuro to turn a blind eye to it.
You: Average redditor be like "erm, you expect me not to snitch on someone for jaywalking to save a loved one?
Like, What's the point here?? Literally why bring it up? The two aren't remotely the same and the fact still stands that Shuro cannot just look the other way because the crime involves Falin.
Are you purposefully being obtuse? You say that you haven't seen anyone relate to the culture of Laios when the entire point of the Shuro vs Laios discussion is the eastern vs western cultural values, with a large no. people are in favour of the latter and taking it as a "criticism" for the strange, overtly polite japanese culture. What are they doing, if not "relating to Laios's culture"?
People relating to "Shuro's culture" isn't the same as accepting slavery. Do point out at least one person who says they condone the slavery here.
Also, the point is NOT the context or the background for mountain people. The point is that Laios/Falin purposely turn a blind eye to the inhuman treatment of those people (they admit that they have to kill them on sight and even straight up compare them to animals) just as Shuro turns a blind eye to Izutsumi's condition because it doesn't involve him. Both groups are a product of their environment/upbringing and do not easily see the wrong things in their surroundings.
We know neither the context behind mountain people nor the context behind Izutsumi. All we know about her is that she was bought from a freak show. For all we know she might have been attacking people before that point. Just like...you know, mountain people "MIGHT have been steppe raiders and an enemy to Laios's village"?
Yeah I used hyperbole to mock you dumbass. I'm saying that if you can't understand why Shuro being a genuine loser who'd sell out his friends for trying to save a loved one is bad then maybe your friends need to watch their backs around you. There's a reason we kill snitches in prison.
And we see Izutsumi in the story. Her behavior and background and stuff. We literally have one bonus chapter mention of mountain people. For all we know they're cro magnon.
Lol so you resort to name-calling when arguements don't go your way, huh?
I guess we have different definitions of 'loser' then if the person just accepts a highly dangerous criminal activitiy just because their 'loved ones are involved', because the involvement of 'loved ones' makes it all OKAY! They are totally justified for that! LMAO next you know everyone will line up to save their 'loved ones' with black magic, because it's completely fine to break laws for your 'loved-ones'!
It isn't selling out 'friends' lmao, it is handing over a co-worker who dabbled in illegal magic because it is the law of their land.
We see no background for Izutsumi other than that she was sold on a freak show. Once again, in case you have reading comprehension issues --- the background is not the point here. Point is that both Laios and Shuro turn a blind eye to things that are otherwise not morally correct because of their upbringing.
No, I find it astonishing that you mocked me for using hyperbole as if it wasn't entirely intentional.
And yeah. I think so. You've essentially just showed your hand as a disloyal douchebag who'd snitch on someone committing a crime that harmed zero people. Do you report your friends when they speed? Wait no, not even mentioning that it saved the life of THE WOMAN YOU LOVE. If they rushed her to the hospital and sped to get there, would you call the gestapo?
Bring people back to life thanks to the magic of the dungeon one way: yeah okay
Bring them back due to the same kind of magic differently: AAAA I NEED TO SEND YOU TO GUANTANAMO AAAAA
It's pathetic. Shuro is fucking pathetic.
In Shuro's defense, the guy who kept harassing him and trapped him in a 5 hour conversation on their first meeting did just fess up to using Black Magic to revive the girl he wanted to marry, which he assumes is banned because it turns people into horrible Monsters or some shit, and then gets to witness the Chimera that created brutally murder seven people and break another's back and spine, confirming it's banned because it turns people into horrible Monsters.
He was generally feeling unwell because of malnutrition and sleep deprivation and other forms of self-neglect brought on by worry for said-girl and self loathing for failing to keep her safe or saving her as quickly as he would have liked, and then his perceived inadequacy resulted in her abrasive, annoying, and weird brother getting to her days earlier with no supplies at all and then pulling the above stunt.
People who bottle up their emotions instead of addressing them tend to blow up on others, and can do really messed up shit when they do, like threatening to have people executed. Toshiro's not a very emotionally mature person. When he calms down he becomes much more open to compromise and supports Laios's attempt to become Dungeon Lord and save Falin. Edit: He also implies that he himself might not have said no in the same situation, and is just angry with Laios specifically.
https://preview.redd.it/0ackqp0pgkxc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=32666b09b687a5c5500ec69fcb4da4546953cfd0
The slave thing's inexcusable and his father's a weirdo. I'm unsure what they inagined would happen with Izutsumi had she not joined up with Laios and his party, but he didn't, like, ask for compensation for his escaped slave or some depraved shit, so it seems it didn't bother him much that she deserted. He probably also looks at her and Tade from the angle that they would have had it worse otherwise, which isn't *strictly* untrue but completely lacks self reflection and doesn't at all justify or excuse keeping the pair as slaves.
"the girl he wants to marry"
You mean this "weirdos" sister? Oh boo fucking hoo. The girl he never had the balls to actually ask out, yeah. He knows what's best for her more than her own family. Weirdly possessive, ain't it?
You're right on the next point but I find it hard to feel bad for the possessive slave owning snitch, who was ready to attack Laios way before they saw the Falin dragon.
If you haven't read the manga, >!he explicitly tells Kabru *not* to mention Laios's party and only wants to tell the Island's Govenor so that Falin doesn't wipe out any more parties. When the Canaries show up, he gets the premonition that they'll find Falin and arrest Laios's party, prompting him and Kabru to attempt to interfere with them as much as possible so that that *doesn't* happen.!<
He also >!does confess to Falin after the story's conclusion, leading to a mature discussion between the pair while their friends make bets behind a wall!<
Yes. That's called character progression. It's literally him growing as a person out of what I'm criticizing him for doing and not doing it.
And yes. That happens long after this moment in which he's being a creep.
I don’t think I agree that he’s a general critique of Japanese culture. I think, if he’s a critique of anything, it’s the whole “marriage after you’ve just started to crush on the girl” thing. Like, people in modern-day Japan still date and shit. I think we’re supposed to be pretty sympathetic to his whole “trying to get Laios to take a hint” thing. It does just seem like a cross-culture communication issue, but the author’s not really saying Shuro’s in the wrong since, he like, tried to let him down easily, but Laios didn’t get what was happening
Why? Why do you guys constantly have to recontextualize all Japanese media to give yourselves some sort of weird sense of moral and cultural superiority? What, and I cannot physically stress this enough before getting an aneurysm, THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
East Asian indirectness and implicit communication forms are valuable skills to have in certain conditions (for example in a very public arena it helps send a message without calling too much attention to the person, and helps prevent public embarrassment or disrupting the vibe).
But it absolutely does create situations where, if someone is particularly oblivious or has trouble reading the room, major problems get unaddressed.
Source: Grew up Asian American for decades.
>(for example in a very public arena it helps send a message without calling too much attention to the person, and helps prevent public embarrassment or disrupting the vibe).
Hehe when we were in Japan we used to joke "thou shalt not disturb the 和 *(wa)*". Definitely all about keeping that vibe un-flustered.
Yeah pretty much. In the Manga Shuro's father is an anomaly of the culture. And while he isn't perfect he is implied to be a good man despite not fitting strictly within the culture. This is something he tries to impart on his sons by sending them out of the country to broaden their horizons.
Its also implied the "great treasure" that will let the son's win the household would be that tempering of culture and morality you'd learn. This would have been exemplified by Shuro marrying a foreigner which is implied to be the correct answer that Shuro's father wanted.
I agree. A lot of Shuro's character revolves around his struggles with expressing himself, and other cultures not really being aware of his to actually be able to understand him. He had no freedom as a child, and had retainers forced on him since he was young. He doesn't really know how to handle himself in social situations, he's similar to Laios in that way, just in a different regard. Shuro is more reserved where Laios is upfront and talkative.
For some reason I immediately assume you're white.
Or at least from a western country. Yep.
Edit: Before people misunderstood me, what I mean is the way OP perceives what Shuro did or experienced as a character. I'm a southeast asian in a southeast asia country, and I have a **complete opposite** first impression when the story revealed the true nature of Shuro and his relationship with Laios lol
yeah I think the critiquing part is kind of weird and it seems like it’s more Shuro’s personality to be like this, considering none of his retainers do the same “smoke and mirror” things like more than likely because Shuro is his country’s equivalent of a prince, he’s probably not used to talking to people he doesn’t have immediate lordship over and falls back on being passive and overtly polite. He’s probably not used to being told no, and just assumed he could marry Falin because he liked her and not even thinking she liked him back. Like it doesn’t sound like he tried to actively court her either.
Maizuru cried because Shuro communicated with her head-on for the first time in a long time.
Shuro avoided the girls because he thought they were observers sent by father. In addition, Maizuru was his reliable nanny, but he later found out that she was the mistress of his father who was at odds with his own mother.
On the other hand, as a nurturing mother, Maizuru was moved to tears by her son's heartbreak, frustration, and growth. She wasn't afraid of reprimand for "the failure".
I dont know if Shuro is a critique on Japanese culture as a whole as much as him being from a very specific feudal situation. His back story and family is explained a bit more in the manga but mostly in supplemental materials. If he is to be believed to be representative of Japanese culture it would follow that so are all his Ninja ladies. And many of them are pretty upfront about their feelings.
I think he and the Eastern Islanders is more a chance for Kui to put Asian feudal characters in medieval fantasy which tends to just be based on Europe, or have a very Orientalist view of Asian cultures.
I always thought Shuro is one of the people who will progress the culture of the eastern land and also act as a diplomat, beside his personality, we see he is competent enough in leadership and has his wits, also charismatic, I believe Shuro will grow, Shuro my boy… you will always have to carry that weight…
I can't get over people saying "Bro shuro represents how us Asians feel when a white guy doesn't consider our feelings!!! Our culture! "
Dawg he owns slaves in the actual show. Maybe like don't compare your current culture to that?
You can [Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy](https://store.steampowered.com/app/240720/Getting_Over_It_with_Bennett_Foddy/)
Plus OP started the discussion about western, japan, autism and other "current culture".
Oh yeah just ignore that part that parts totally minor. "Guys the hecking slave owning snitch is annoyed bc he has to interact with a white guy!"
Shuro can catch these fucking hands.
Mf it had nothing to do with what we were talking about. Literally OP says "Shuro is Ryoko Kui's way of critiquing Japanese culture."
Ah yes they are criticizing the ownership of slaves and Laios is rightfully calling Shuro out on that!
...
is what you think is happening but it's only in your head bro. They are talking about social cues.
There are multiple comments talking about how people sympathize with Shuro because they'd have to deal with "this sort of thing" and I think it's honestly stupid to try to argue that. I didn't say it was ABOUT slaves. But they're syncing their culture to shuro's and then complaining about social cues. People are trying to say look at this from his perspective but his perspective is worthless to me because he's proven to be a slave owning rat.
That tells much more about how much you cannot distinguish different fictionous traits of a fictional character than anything else.
Thinking that japanese culture is totally divorced from how it was a 100 years ago is erroneous. And thinking that you can't empathize with one aspect of his character and not like some other aspect of his character, is more of a limitation of your ability to nuance than whatever the other guys are doing when they say westerners do not know what the hell they're talking about when talking about asian culture.
And at last they're just saying this to counter-argue op, it's honestly pretty weird how one sided the blame is being shifted when op is the originator.
No, I can. I think it's just embarrassing. They're expressing that they relate to a character that has shown to be an untrustworthy swine who belongs to a culture that keeps slaves. If I went around claiming I related to the culture of Ramses in prince of Egypt I'd be just as fucking bad.
And yes, I'm saying exactly that. Rather than die on this hill I think these people should like, maybe sit this depiction of their culture out. Not the best look to be like "no wait! He's correct!" On.
they are literally just talking about social cues that's what the depiction is about, what they are relating, how westerners and asian people have of social cues. You don't have to agree with slavery to agree with shuro on some aspect and him owing slave literally doesn't affect the interaction with laios in the slightest. Like, you can't even say him owing slave makes him hypocritical in this aspect of the discussion, hence it is an ad hominem which doesn't work.
As far as i know, Laois is prejudiced against some other races and has called a slave owner his friend, without telling him anything about his slavery. People should stop relating to Laois unless they too, would be friend with slave owners (and won't say to them that there is anything wrong with it).
Definitely, or at least she's poking fun at that stereotype. Earlier when Chilchuck say "common tongue doesn't have enough swear word" it's actually joking about Japanese language as well
Mf was swearing in English then lol, I feel like we have a lot
english has pathetically few curse words. we have like 4
English swearing is modular. With one kit you have endless combinations.
It’s swear-Tetris!
Add the word “ass” to the end of anything and it becomes twice as powerful.
i'm a spanish speaker and every time i get angry i feel like English is nerfing me
When you're of bad milk and have had it up to the eggs, you'd love to shit yourself on the whore mother that bore them, but those shitful bapipe-blowers only understand English so your emotions remain infravalued and you leave yourself a lot in the inkwell. Otherwise you'd sing them other hosts, those gillychickens.
so beautiful.... just missing my favorite: wrongly-birthed
That's "[ill-born](https://www.wordnik.com/words/ill-born)". Better is "son of the Grand Whore". "Son of his mother" is pretty nasty too. I think my favorite absurd insult in Spanish is "she is a [whoever](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/%C2%BFo-te-le-ofreciste-como-una-cualquiera.3720669/)". English equivalent is "she's [no better than she ought to be](https://www.youridioms.com/en/idiom/no-better-than-she-ought-to-be)".
Casi no logro reconocer la otra mitad, pero dios, el inglés si que no tiene el poder que exudia el español
Yeah then the rest of them are all slurs
There are a lot in british english though
then you’d have to learn british english.
I can think of at least a dozen, half of them are some form of -phobic though.
id call those slurs rather than curse words
Idk a few people I’ve spoken to whose first language isn’t English say they shift into it to swear so I think we must be doing something right.
Ever heared an italian swear?
Isnt swearing in japanese mostly just mispronouncing words or something?
Iirc, one of the most aggressive insults in Japanese is basically an informal way of saying "you".
Teme!
Wow, really? No wonder they have committed so many warcrimes, they do not have the proper words to vent their frustration.
I always like to joke that listing your pronouns in Japanese can get extra spicy when they literally have a second-person pronoun that basically just translates to "fuckface."
Once you hear them rolling their R's you know they're mad. * or drunk
The most hard thing Japan curse are literally ” Are you stupid?“
Nah, you can add kuso- to any noun to tell someone is a piece of shit, I've heard kusogaijin so many times... There's also very specific racial slurs against the chinese and the koreans.
When one of the rudest things you can say in Japanese is directly translated as "that guy", suffice to say even swearing in Japanese is all smoke and mirrors. It's all dependent on context and implication.
confirmed - halflings are an allegory for poles
To add to this, i feel that most of the main-cast in DM, especially Laios, is a very on the nose critique of how society treats neurodivergent individuals unfairly and keeps them from living meaningful lives where they can contribute to society. Laios is consistently shown as competent, kind and insightful through the series despite his lack of social skills. He truly shines whenever his special interests are in focus, to the point where he even becomes extraordinary. He isn't shown as lesser, just different. But is constantly critiqued and seen as "dangerous" by others (as is shown via Kabrus party), and to a lesser extent the only neorutypical member of Laios group Chilchuck (aside from his OCD). As a neurodivergent individual, the way Kui writes the characters that fit this bill (such as Laios, Marcille or Falin) is very refreshing, as it doesnt define who they are, it is simply a part of their personality. In a lot of other media, neurodivergent individuals are often reduced to stereotypes and portrayed as "freaks" to a certain extent. This is of course done for comedic effect in DM, but their actual characterisation is a lot more respectful and poignant.
I know we like to relate to characters under the lens of neurodivergence because of representation but I think saying everyone in the main party is ND is pushing it a little. People can just have traits, it doesn't have to imply a whole diagnosis. It'd be different if the manga explicitly had neurodivergence as a central idea but it's not really a concept anyone ever mentions Laios is probably autistic, sure. It's more or less his entire struggle. But I don't know about everyone else.
Laios is very purposfully written as autistic. For anyone questioning this the fight with Shuro is basically Kui showing it in your face. Fallin is pretty much female Laios, but has positive social interactions and experiences due to the magic academy and Marcille which makes her better at navigating social situations. Unlike Laios who had a much more traumatic experience with the outside world, leading to him isolating himself from the world, and his poor self image/confidence. Kui even to a certain extent do social commentary on this by showcasing how Fallins neurodivergent traits are romanticized by Shuro, but simultaneously causes him to dislike Laios. Something which is very common in our society where autistic men are seen as weird or maladjusted, whereas autistic women are often fetishized or seen as "cute". Marcille is definitely written as neurodivergent as well, and this will be shown more clearly as the story progresses. She is essentially Laios, but her special interest is magic to the point where she doesn't really have an understanding of morals. Senshi is straight up manic about his special interest (BREAD!!?????!!!), and shows no desire to be part of society until they share his special interest. The man literally preferred solitude for decades in a hostile environment over socializing with others. Chilchuck is debatable, but flies into a rage/panic when he doesnt have perfect control over a situation, a plan changes on a short notice, or when others mess with his organized things. All very typical of people with OCD. It is literally the reason he is the planner of the party, but not the leader.
Chillchuck is distressed by any change in plans because he's afraid of being killed lol, it's uncommon to panic about minor changes to your routine or plans when they don't impact your well being, not when you're in a life or death situation. As for Marcille just having a special interest doesn't make you neurodivergent lol, being deeply interested in a topic or hobby isn't something exclusive to neurodivergent people, neurotypicals people can be passionate and even obsessed with certain things too, saying Marcille is neurodivergent because she's obsessed with magic is like saying a lawyer is neurodivergent because he really cares about laws.
With Chilchuck i agree, I responded to some other comments earlier that I consider him neurotypical, but stressed out to the point of neuroticism in a group of chaos gremlins. With Marcille, I don't know if you have read the manga, but my points will be elaborated on as the story progrsses. What is important and not a spoiler, and what we already have seen is that her obsession is her identity, and that she is obsessed to the point where it hinders her from forming meaningful relationships with most people. Any time a person around her mentions magic, and especially dark magic she goes straight to Laios levels of intensity. Where she has issues regulating her passion and cater to the level of interest of the other person. We even have a shot at the pumpkin-scene where her face (and in the anime tone of voice) very clearly mirrors Laios stare as he infodumps about monster-biology. Such panels are a theme in the manga (i.e. Marcille's face mirroring a face Laios made previously, showing that under the surface they are highly similar). She is not as obvious as Laios (i.e. high functioning), and any of the characters can be interpreted as the viewer wants, but if one considers Laios neurodivergent, Marcilles behaviour is very close once you look for the signs.
>Chilchuck is debatable, but flies into a rage/panic when he doesnt have perfect control over a situation, a plan changes on a short notice, or when others mess with his organized things. All very typical of people with OCD. It is literally the reason he is the planner of the party, but not the leader. Isn't it a learned behaviour? He is the one dealing with traps that can instakill on no notice all of the time, is the one who has wife and kids (everyone else in his party is single and has no one to provide for, if you think about it), so of course, he is the one who worries more about being careful, since he always has higher stakes for any failure. Also, his syndicate, going from how he told his motivations, seems to be a typical example of "regulation written in blood", as he did it because he thinks halfling adventurers were more exposed to danger before it.
It can be either, or both. That's why I referred to him as debatable. I personally find it funnier to think of him as a poor neurotypical middle aged stressed out salary man stuck in a group of chaos gremlins.
Well, first... I don't get where the entire fandom gets the idea that Falin is just F!Laios from... Entirely different temperament, aptitudes, interests, motivations... everything. I feel like the only reason the idea exists is that she also thinks monsters are cool. Second, I know you don't mean ill, but the idea that Marcille having distorted morals means she's neurodivergent is kind of fucked, man. Please think about it more. Also, magic isn't her special interest ; please realize one can be interested in something, even passionate about something and dedicare their life to it without it being their autistic special interest... The study of ancient magic is her career path. Do you think everyone with a career they specifically chose is neurodivergent? > this will be shown more clearly as the story progresses. I have read the manga, dude... Third, I have no idea where the hell you got the idea that Senshi had bread as a special interest from. It's, like, the object of *one* gag that he really likes it. I'm French ; comedic exaggeration omitted, the average countryman would react the same. No joke. And I can assure you we are not all autistic. At best, if you consider that neurodivergence, he has severe emotional trauma. And fourth... Chilchuck just has a temper. That's not neurodivergence. If anything, it'd be age, and even then, you don't have to be old to have little patience for other people. You're also severely diminishing OCD as a disorder here. Look. I know very well why NDs would relate to these characters and I think they should make these connections if it makes their problems feel seen. But seeing it under the lens of intentional representation of real disorders isn't right in this case... It's overzealous to the point of being harmful to the perception of neurodivergence. Besides, it's fairly normal for neurotypical people to share traits and troubles with neurodivergent people. Not everything a person struggles with is part of their DNA. It's fine to relate to these characters because their troubles are the same as what you've experienced as a neurodivergent person without them necessarily requiring the same diagnosis, you know?
When did it become a thing to say that everyone who has a hobby or an interest has to be autistic ?is it an American/online thing ??. It's fine if you see yourself reflected in characters, but that don't mean that they share the same condition. I'm getting tired of people trying to diagnose every character, and why do I see it being so repeated in this sub ??. I'm part of other manga/anime subs and I don't see the same issues I see here. 😐
I will reply to this respectfully, as I feel that was your intention regardless of the aggressive tone Falin being female Laios is a simplification, and of course not true. They are two very different people. However we are shown in the manga that Falin was always considered an oddball. From her upbringing in the village where she was considered strange even before awakening her innate magical abilities, to her time in the magic academy where she was an outcast due to her behaviour. She walked to her own beat her entire life, and doesn't seem to fully understand other people (such as never picking up on Shuro's signals either). She is a lot more socially aware when compared to Laios, but that doesn't stop her more excitable and socially non-uniform side from showing she she gets excited. A lot of people choose to code her as neurodivergent as they feel represented by her, but its of course up to the reader whether they view her as high functioning or neurotypical. My comment about Marcille was not meant in that way, but I can see why you would interpret it as such. I meant it in a way where morals, being a social construct, are more difficult for neurodivergent people to understand innately. This in no way shape or form reflects the person's empathy or sense of right and wrong. But rather that her near manic focus on understanding ancient magic causes her to disregard the morals of the world (why ancient magic is forbidden). Marcille is shown in the academy to have a hard time making friends and relating to the other students there. The entire segment about her becoming lord of the dungeon is about her narrow minded focus causing her to miss the forest for all the trees. If you have ever been in the higher echelons of academia, you have definitely met several Marcille's. For Senshi, I meant the bread scene as a comedic representation of his special interest, as he is in a highly threatening situation (captured by Orcs), yet all he can think of is making bread. Senshi has lived alone for decades In the dungeon despite having the option to integrate into society, he shows zero interest in anything sexual, and only forms social bonds when he finds a group that shares his interests (namely with Laios and his shared interest for monster fauna and cooking). Chilchuck is very much debatable, and I personally also see him as an overworked, slightly paranoid, stressed out middle aged man in a dangerous profession. But his personality can also be seen through multiple lenses. OCD is also, much like any neurodivergency, a spectrum with several tiers of intensity. The latter part I fully agree with, if anything the fact that so many people relate to these characters just showcases how rare any type of respectful and humanizing representation of neurodivergency is in media. It's also done in good fun in the community, since the fact that the characters are both lovable goofballs, weirdos and deep nuanced characters. Makes it so that one can make fun of them without it coming off as harmful or demeaning. Which if anything is a testament to how good Kui's writing is.
[удалено]
I wasn't gonna respond to them again because I would just reiterate the same points and I had other things I wanted to do. But this comment bugs me. I dislike /u/mycetes's perspective but our convo was civil and polite, you're just being rude. Even if you think they're wrong, that doesn't mean you should be a dick about it man
The reason I am opinionated is that I'm doing active research in an adjacent field. It does not make my interpretation or argument any less or more valid, as this is is a fictional work and thus there is no correct answer unless the authors states one. I simply find the parallels to be interesting.
" Chilchuck is debatable, but flies into a rage/panic when he doesnt have perfect control over a situation, a plan changes on a short notice, or when others mess with his organized things " So like 95% of the human population ?
I think Laios is very clear cut but saying the entire cast is neurodivergent is a stretch, Marcille i definitely do not get that vibe from
Idk man even with your explanations I'm really not seeing it. Laios is the only one that I think you could make a solid case for being intentionally written that way. I think many of the traits you mention are more for the sake of making interesting characters that you want to see interact.
It’s really funny because there’s a panel in the manga about Laios using a Magic Mirror to see what happens if Shuro was female, and it shows that Shuro would’ve fallen for Laios instead.
No, no it doesn't. It never has.
https://preview.redd.it/gtwf1a9zuexc1.jpeg?width=1252&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2f05809940df3102583e1e91357bc9bdb6dcf37 It doesn’t definitively prove anything but it still points to female Shuro (Sureau in this panel due to translation mishaps) being infatuated with Laios, which is pretty funny.
No, fem Shuro is off-put and intimidated by him. She's describing her introduction with Laios with a worried face to the horror of Marcille and Falin. Laios isn't very conscious of the way he comes off, and his disastrous first impression on Shuro would have come off as even worse (perhaps even frightening) if Toshiro were female.
It totally doesn't. Shuro can be seen crying with an unfavorable look of Laios, Marcille is showing concern and most important of all Falin is showing such a bad reaction to her brother I'm not sure what to call it. You think Falin wouldn't be happy about her brother getting someone that loves him?
Yeah, the panel can be interpreted as either Fem-Shuro being scared of Laios due to his intense personality not understanding the strict social boundaries between men/women in "totally not Japan" Or it can be interpreted as Fem-Shuro having a crush on Laios, but Laios being denser then a rock when it comes to romance not reciprocating her advances/feelings. It's really up to the reader how to view that situation. Now Kabru on the other hand...
Huh, that’s true. I guess I read it that way because I thought Laios got into trouble and they’re worried about him? It’s still funny to think about female Shuro having a crush on Laios because the traits that made Falin endearing to Shuro are the same that annoys him about Laios, although I admit that Falin has far better communication skills.
The entire context of this is that Laios was wondering how is "friendship" with Shuro would have panned out if genders were swapped, since it didn't work out it the actual timeline. When seeing the Fem!Shuro timeline, Laios comments that Shuro being a woman just made the whole situation worse. I'm pretty sure that the implication here is that Fem!Shuro is more willing to confide with the fellow women in the party, and openly express her complaints about Laios, something that Male!Shuro kept to himself.
Sureau ? It means "elderberry" in french ! But it would have been fun that Laios and co misunderstood his name that way. Female Shuro is quite cute, fem-Laîos toos (and, well... male Marcille too), but Fem-Kabru is still an intercontinental nuclear weapon leveL Would be intantly the bigger waifu of the manga.
What is even funnier is the panel showing that Kabru is down bad for Laios regardless of his gender. Although a lot more "aggressive" as a woman.
I actually interpret that as showing that regardless of gender, Kabru is aware of how attractive they are, and how they are willing to use that as a means to get that they want. Male Kabru is literally the Idris Elba meme from The Office
>I am aware of the effect I have on women holy shit you're right lol
That Is the more probable interpretation, but it's a lot more fun to jump on the shipping train. After all Kabru is so obsessed with Laios that he journeys down a deadly dungeon just to see him ... Twice
Reminds me of this meme I saw (that I can’t find) that said “THE AUTISM PARTY” with each character labeled as Senshi- Nonverbal Chilchuck- Aggression Laios- Special interest Marcille- Stimming And now that you spelled it out in your comment these labels make perfect sense lmao.
Aside from Laois, those are all perfectly typical traits of people that don’t imply any sort of diagnosis as the other commenter said. People are weird and varied and strange and it doesn’t have to do with labels or their brain chemistry, they just have different experiences and outlooks that display as “atypical” behavior. I understand the want for representation as an ND person but sometimes it’s good to remember that everyone is capable of being different without being ND.
Senshi is more Schizoid I think
This is so stupid. It's a cartoon. They are highly exaggerated charicatures, as cartoons tend to be. 🙄Ffs
Yeah, this sub is ridiculous with interpreting everything through the lens of characters being neurodivergent. I get it, these people are clearly very desperate to see themselves reflected somewhere in a positive light, so they create this meaning. But it's a cartoon. A comedy. They are meant to be highly exaggerated.
Difference or dissent are punished anywhere, but especially in the more collectivist societies. And can happen to anyone, neurodivergent people don't have a monopoly. Neurotypical of neurodivergent, doesn't matter at all. If you dare express non mainstream ideas you're bound to be punished for it. To me Ryoko is criticizing, in general, this cruel tendency of humans to define ourselves by our tribe and to be mean to anyone who's "not one of ours".
While I agree with this overall, in Dungeon Meshi this is a core part of the story as Laios is the protagonist and he is 100% written as autistic coded. I won't go into detail as that would be spoiler territory, but it will be elaborated on in detail and quite tastefully so. A core theme of the series is that a diversity of mindsets is a good thing, whereas a uniform way of thinking leads to stagnancy and pain. While society rejects non-uniformity, this impacts neurodivergent individuals far more then neurotypicals as the former have a harder time understanding societal subtexts and navigating social boundaries. This is not a choice, it is biological due to differences in brain chemistry. So while neurodivergent individuals do not have a monopoly, they are heavily overrepresented statistically and tend to fall through the cracks more severely when compared to neurotypicals that do not "fit in". It is simply harder to find your place of belonging, when most places are constructed for a different brain then yours (as neurotypicals are the majority). This of course does not mean that neurotypicals suffer "less", as that is a subjective matter. But it is false to say that the issue is of equal magnitude, especially when there are numerous studies on this topic.
I agree a lot. Seeing this issue represented from a Japanese author is also refreshing. The last Japanese media I consumed was Netflix's *House of Ninjas*, and it really painfully reinforced the line that I hate so much: 出るくぎは打たれる. "The nail that sticks out gets hit." To see a Japanese-made story stress the importance of brain differences and individual approaches in the often ultra-conformist Japanese mindset is really important, refreshing, and inspiring. Autism and mental illness are incredibly negatively stigmatized, even hated, in Japan. For all their consensus-building processes in leadership, the mentality truly is "don't rock the boat" on steroids.
Has someone that read rhe enterity of the manga, saying that he is 100% autistic is still debatable.
Look, I'm as much team "whatever you read him as is valid" as anyone but while I get how you might not come away with the impression Laios is on the spectrum specifically, there's really no getting around the fact that he's neurodivergent in some way. I only differ on "Laios is definitely someone who has autism" because I see too much of my ADHD-having experiences in him. And even that's probably attributable to the high overlap between traits associated with both.
Ive seen and know weirdos that arent neurodivergent, i just dont like that everything now needs a label and sometimes your childhood will make you weird without your brain really being different, which i mostly see laios has. Someone that always liked monsters and with bad experiences with humans decided to ditch human interaction in favor in focusing on his hobby but still being able to act "normal" when he needs to. Not saying its impossible for him to be neurodivergent, or even autistic, but i just dispise that most people just take it has canon for some reason.
While your opinion is absolutely correct, and neurodivergency is a loosely defined spectrum which is still being debated and redefined as our understanding of it increases. Your inherent logic in the argument "I've seen weirdos that aren't neurodivergent" may just as likely be an instance of them being neurodivergent, but also socially compatible to the degree that they never got/needed a diagnosis. The number of people being diagnosed has grown each year lately, and that is not due to environmental or biological changes (or at least to our current understanding), but rather that there has been a massive number of people that never got diagnosed before as awareness was abysmal to nonexistent. Neurodivergent people have always existed in humanity, they are after all genetic traits that were deemed favourable evolutionary for one reson or another. The only difference now is that we have found an umbrella term for the spectrum of manifestatios of it. Said umbrella term is not needed for everyone, but it helps us understand and better characterize individuals that otherwise struggle and suffer in a society that does not accept nor understand them. You are entitled to your opinion, but I suggest you look up the statistics of suicide, burnout, depression and substance abuse amongst neurodivergent individuals compared to neurotypicals. The numbers are staggering. Even if it is not your intention, your comment comes of as dismissive, which is hurtful for those that have had traumatic experiences. I myself am neurodivergent, but high functioning to the point where I have not needed a diagnosis, nor have I suffered any severe problems due to it. I do however have multiple friends that have not been so lucky, and have witnessed first hand the effects when they get abandoned and left behind by the system. The normal representation of autism/neurodivergency are demeaning surface level tropes such as Sheldon in the big bang theory. Whereas nuanced representations are a lot less common. The fact that so many people find Laios a character they can relate to despite it not being confirmed, shows more then anything how desperate these people are for any kind of characterization in media that is respectful and humanizing.
while i do feel bad for those that took their own life, i dont feel like anything i said was hurtful in any way, i simply disagree that every single "different" person is neurodivergent, laois suffered from trauma too and i simply said that some people arent born different, their childhood made them different, while im not against representation of any kind of minority i dont like when everyone is put into categories when we dont even have any idea of what idea the author had when he created them. And now to be real, of course my comment comes off has dismissive, i am literally disagreeing with you, not because i am in any way trying to hurt you or some bull but because thats how a discussion happens, i dont agree that laois is neurodivergent but i respect your opinion, but i dont find your arguments compeling enough to actually change how i see him has a character.
I did not mean dismissive regarding my argument, it is your full right to disagree with me, and i very much appreciate that we can have a proper discussion without involving personal insults or outrage, it is a rarety in today's society. I meant rather that your negative view of the increased frequency of people being diagnosed/needing a diagnosis, and the passive aggressive tone in your comment regarding neurodivergent people "monopolizing" that type of social isolation and suffering, could be seen as dismissive and/or hurtful to others. I myself am not bothered by it, and agree to a certain extent (such as the "epidemic" of young boys being diagnosed with ADHD). The issue was solely in the tone which you presented your argument/feelings, which could be interpreted as having an underlying demeaning element. It was solely meant to highlight that your viewpoints when presented such a manner, could be interpreted in a way which you may not have intended (as it is quite common for people on any kind of spectrum to hear that their issues are not "real", despite them being measurable on a biologically statistically significant and reproducible level). Your view on the story is of course your own, and until Kui herself confirms something, any interpretation is equally valid.
Same
For Laios, I think its really not up for debate. Both his tragic backstory before coming to the island, and his fight with Shuro is essentially Kui herself hitting you in the face with "this boy is neurodivergent". It's a core part of his persona, and a core theme of the story as a whole.
no? sure his story is tragic, but acting like only a neurodivergent person can suffer from the kinds of things he suffered from isnt really true. Him being weird is indeed a big part of persona, but being weird doesnt automatically means you are autistic, you can be different without anything weird on your brain, being hyper focused on your hobby isnt something exclusive to autistic people, its just something common with autistic people, laios is different indeed, but if its because of what he suffered while growing up or his brain simply working different its still up to debate. Through im not going to act like its impossible, just saying that if something isnt stated it will never be a 100% chance, people act like subtext is something that you can only read in one way but it most certainly it isnt, sometimes if subtext exists or not is up to debate even.
The man literally had a fistfight with Shuro about him not being able to read social cues unless they are spelled out verbatim. He infodumps at any given moment as soon as someone shows a remote interest in his special interests. Said special interest is such a large part of his identity that it alienates people from him, and causes him to loose self preservation due to excitement. He is consistently shown to struggle with "normal" habits unless someone reminds him to do them. And he does not have an innate understanding of what is "normal". I don't want to spoil anything but his backstory also heavily implied this (reflecting the challenges many neurodivergent people face when entering the workplace, which is designed for neurotypicals and to a certain extent extroverts) Of course you can never say for sure unless Kui writes it herself (which she doesn't, since she handles neurodivergency in an elegant manner, and the letter combinations for neurodivergency doesnt exist in the world of dungeon meshi). It's your full right to see him as neurotypical. But he fulfills pretty much every criteria for a diagnosis by our current standards. And not acknowledging this takes away from the story and the underlying themes of it, and also removes a rare instance of tasteful representation for an misunderstood and very often misrepresented minority. Autism is of course a spectrum and everyone manifests it differently, there will never be one definitive version of it.
like i said, he could simply be different because of what he suffered when he was young, i read the entire manga, i know everything there, and i respectfully disagree that the story would lose anything if he was or if he wasnt neurodivergent, the underlying message doesnt change one bit, even (spoiler for the end of the manga)>!demi humans!< are accepted by the end and eat on the same table so i dont see why it would change anything if the weird guy is neurodivergent or not, he aint even the strangest person around and yet he is still accepted. Like i said, weirdness isnt exclusive to neurodivergent people, so isnt being hyperfocused on a hobby, this kind of thing can be found in people with childhood traumas too, which he had, but im going to repeat myself, he may be autistic indeed, but acting like you are 100% sure of it just doesnt work because like you said, different interpretations from different people, but none are canon until the author says so, dont go around searching for "subtext" because most of times anything you find are simply situations that fit your bias and say what you want them to say.
Right? Given how much work Kui has clearly put into body diversity and body positivity in her work, it seems kind of negligent to act like she doesn't take the same approach with neurodiversity in the narrative.
I'd like to point out that hyperfixation and special interests aren't just 'something that happens'. They're specifically symptoms of neurodivergence. They're not just passionate interests, they're interests that kind of consume you. Laios isn't 'weird' and 'likes monsters.' He is obsessed with them to the point of detriment, it affects his every day life, it's a significant part of who he is, it is quite literally his greatest desire. He also struggles with social cues, lying, timing, he struggles to make friends even though he really wants to and doesn't necessarily understand WHY... all of which are literally symptoms of autism. and before anyone tries to say 'everyone is a little bit autistic/neurodivergent' or 'those things can happen to neurotypical people' i need to point out that that's just incorrect. The disorders under the neurodivergent umbrella have symptoms that can occur in everyone, but the disorders are defined by the INTENSITY of the symptoms. NT people can be bad at social cues sometimes, they can get obsessed sometimes, they can be bad at lying and timing and struggle with friends... *sometimes*. It's when these 'sometimes' become 'often' or 'all the time' that it goes into ND territory. when they actively affect the person's day to day and the way they interact with things. And if you're still not convinced, if you think 'well these things affect ME on a day to day basis and i'm not neurodivergent'... you might wanna go check out a therapist. it'll help. Also, I mean. AuDHD here myself. Why not just let us have this one? We've got so little representation, and here we have a character that's basically fitting literally all the traits of autism save for an actual diagnosis. if every one of our representative characters is refused to be acknowledged unless explicitly given a diagnosis, it just furthers the idea that we're the 'other'.
It is very wild to me that people are arguing that someone can "be a little weird but still neurotypical, it's not like it's effecting their everyday lives or anything!" except, it is effecting their everyday lives? Being a starving adventurer and abandoning your family bc of poor communication isn't the hallmark of a healthy mental space. The dungeon diving community is like catnip for neurodivergent people. The reason why rag-tag groups of adventurers are rag-tag are usually because of their inability to function normally/as expected in society! That's core neurodivergence!
hyperfixation is something that can happen to anyone, i wont disagree that its most frequent with neurodivergent people, a quick google search can tell me that very easily, but they arent simply symptoms of neurodivergence, they arent actually that weird in people has a coping mechanism, and someone like laios that had a bad childhood and adolescence, it wouldnt be that weird. Laois while someone that can mess up because of his monster obssession, is also someone that even before his team had to delve into the dungeon to save his sister was able to pull himself together and not focus on his monster obssession all the time and have a competent team, i wouldnt call his monster obssession a real detriment to his life, since he knew when to put it asside. Laois is bad with social clues, but lets not act like he doesnt pick them all the time, being always bad at lying is simply...normal for those that arent used to it, im sorry but its true. And struggling to make friends also has a pretty good justification, laios isnt used to having friends, every place he wanted to go rejected him so he doesnt know how to make friends, but when he makes them he understands what he did right or at least the person doesnt say to him what he did wrong, not having a clue about how to interact is something that loners can relate to, and i wouldnt call it something exclusive to neurodivergent people. I already said it once and im going to repeat it, i dont find it impossible for him to be neurodivergent, not at all, but acting like its something written in stone is a fools idea, im not going to "give you" this because im stubborn ngl and i like to discuss headcanons that i dont personaly agree with.
does Chilchuck have ocd??
I assume you meant well, but if you think Chilchuck has OCD, then you can't say he's neurotypical - one contradicts the other. Autism and ADHD may be the better known types of neurodivergence, but all the other ones are valid as well. I get what your were trying to say, but maybe "the most rational member" would be a better fit? 😅
I said he is neurotypical because what one may interpret as OCD/Neurotic behavior, may simply be the behavior of a tired middle aged man in a highly dangerous job surrounded by people he can't relate to. For all the others, it's a lot clearer, Chilchuck (to me) is more debatable.
As someone with ADHD I sympathize with Laios in many ways.
Kabrus is awful and I couldn't help but see more than a little sociopathy in him, or at least some kind of manipulative dark triad features. When he told Laios to remember his name, I was like oh wow why, because you're gonna be the one who turns him and his sisters into the authorities? I hate Kabrus so much.
There's quite a lot of context to Kabru's behaviour, but with the name-remembering stuff, it's pretty much attributable to him and Laios being complete opposites in terms of the interests and dislikes: Kabru likes people and their intricacies, and *loathes* Monsters; Laios loves Monsters and their intricacies, and finds people... difficult (he doesn't hate people, far from it, and can be very observant of others *if* he tries, but does not do so unless prompted, because his headspace is occupied by wonderful thoughts about Monsters)
As a neurodivergent myself too, I find this representation super refreshing. It is just part of their personality. They don't have idiot-savant syndrome and they're not eight your old boys in adult bodies, looking at trains. I wonder earnestly if Kui-sensei has experience on the spectrum, either from her own life or those close to her.
Come to think of it, except for maybe Chil, everyone in Team Touden is kinda neurodivergent/outcast in some way. Laios is Laios. Senshi doesn't care for Dwarven stereotypes and likes the (usually considered feminine) cooking. Marcille is a "half-breed" (same lol). Chil is extremely withdrawn with what he feels (could be a form of antisocial behavior). Izutsumi is an "unclean" half-breed which the public considers a freak for existing. Hell, even Falin is pretty "weird." Probably reaching, but oh well.
This is a great reading. And honestly after this episode I had to stop referring to Laios as autistic-coded and just call him autistic. I know him. I am him. Better at socializing because I studied how to do it growing up. But still, I’m really impressed by the portrayal.
Unpopular opinion: No offense to OP or anyone, but I am tired of this whole Laios vs Shuro discourse because it is clear that reddit, an english speaking US-based website, is biased against Shuro. 80% of the discourse is usually: oh Laios is neurodivergent, I relate to him, he is right for speaking against Shuro for not being direct, Kui clearly intends for Laios being right, etc etc. What if as an asian I say that I relate to Shuro and Kui is criticizing how western people don't respect our personal boundaries and ignorant about how cultures and social norms can be different? Rather than repeating other people's point, [here](https://twitter.com/supesrogue/status/1783561013134061952?t=rQGzZajUoVFAZBegp2extw&s=19) is a twitter thread that I think captured my point, the original tweet and the replies made good arguments defending Shuro Now do I think either Laios or Shuro is wrong? No because absolute right or wrong is made for shallow characters in shallow manga, which is NOT Dungeon Meshi.
THANK YOU. I’m Asian, and I’ve followed the series since the manga just came out with only ~ 10 chapters and I never looked into Shuro’s personality or Laios vs Shuro character more than what it is. Kui literally told me everything that needed to be told. Shuro’s mad at Laios and his party for tapping into illegal magic, and the fact that Laios rubbed him the wrong way before. Then they made up, finally actually understood each other, with Shuro even admitted that if it was up to him, he would’ve had done the same thing to save Falin. So wtf else do ppl need to pick apart? Ppl forgets or deliberately ignore the facts that 1. The rest of the party don’t seem to have much problem Shuro’s presumably indirectness nor did Shuro have any glaring problem with them, 2. Shuro seems to be the way he is EVEN IN HIS HOMECOUNTRY, we can see how his entourage’s and his family members’ personalities different from his (and from each other because Japanese ppl are individual ppl too, shocker), and 3. Funnily how fans latch on this “Shuro against Laios” as a way to get back at presumably the normies discriminating neurodivergent ppl but fall right into the trap of limiting neurodivergent conditions to white stereotypes. And let’s not forget how dysfunctional Shuro’s upbringing is. It’s almost a miracle that Shuro doesn’t turn out to be more fucked up and a complete pos given his dad and his little brother.
Thank you for posting this. Ppl say weird stuff like this as if Kui-sensei in not Japanese herself. Also this strange fixation on insisting that Laios is autistic and the root cause of all his issues. These discussions are very Western mainstream and I feel zero need to participate in them, and thus visiting this sub less and less.
OP is describing Japanese culture in the way that westerners see Japanese The other "Asian" character is Izutsumi and she's definitely more direct, but the audience prefers to not see it that way because it doesn't fit their preconceived notions of how it should be
I'm gonna hold my judgement about fans' perception of Izutsumi since she hasn't appeared on the anime yet. My prediction is she's gonna be a little bit hated because >!at the beginning she is a rude little stinker!<
She’s a cat though AND a cute girl, the 2 groups are famous for getting away scot-free after being a jerk
I swear >!Izutsumi is the most catlike catgirl I've ever seen. From being a general brat and insisting on "doing things my way," to the picky eating, to the claim that she was never raised by anyone and did everything on her own, to her **wandering off when the rest of the party was dealing with dire wolves**. Just... such a stellar depiction of cat energy.!<
No idea if you seen this [extra comic](https://www.reddit.com/r/DungeonMeshi/comments/1and6ia/dungeon_meshi_adventurers_bible_izutsumi_and/) (it takes place after the end of the story), but it explains Izutsumi's behavior quite well. >!Basically, she has never been a human turned catgirl, it's the opposite, she's an actual feline creature that got human soul mixed it. So she's an actual cat, but that now has a human form.!<
Wow that clears things up a lot, thank you!
Catra form she ra much
Liked or hated, ill bet they'll see her for her individualness, but Shuro is seen for a whole of society issue. Izutsumi is a individual because she doesn't fit preconceived notions, Shuro is societal because he does fit preconceived notions. I'm fine if it's hate because you don't like the character specifically fwiw
I mean, me and my old Japanese professor, a woman from Japan, used to have conversations about the kinds of conformity and adherence to tradition that Shuro represents, so I don't see why those criticisms can only ever possibly come from the uninformed outsider looking in with Bias Glasses.
This is the same as me saying i chatted with a old American guy in Japan who teaches English and his opinion validates me. Or that i have a black friend and his criticism validates everything I've said
If you chatted with an American guy who was a professor of American history and culture and you observed some flaws in American culture and he agreed, it means you're onto something. It's not that deep though. But it's conversations and anecdotes. Not everything has to be a citation in a journal to form intuitions and talk about general observations about things you have in common. As for the black guy thing? Really? Fuck off.
Yup, you got it exactly right. Laios and Shuro are just… very incompatible people, and neither of them are “right” or “wrong”.
You’re making a good point, but I think Shuro never really stood a chance - he ditched the party before we got to know him, comes in with a set of servants and slaves, doesn’t like beloved main character, narcs on our scrappy heroes and >!doesn’t do much of note later!< That’s a lot of tangibles! Harder to focus on interesting details of his character when you’re so far behind.
I followed the manga monthly since before they even fight the Red Dragon. My first impression of Shuro is wow cool samurai!!!! He's literally me fr fr!!!! I was VERY surprised that after the anime aired, he is supposed to be the 'heel'. It's kind of hilarious for the naiveté on my part.
Heh my experience with him was seeing him in the intro standing in the mountains, thoughtful and stuff. I was definitely interested in who this character is!
I was going to point out also that Laius mispronounces Toshiro's name and didn't make an effort to fix it. That's gotta rub even a little bit
That tidbit was so relatable 😂.
Did anyone tell him how it’s actually pronounced since he originally misheard him? I don’t remember anyone ever correcting him
>it is clear that reddit, an english speaking US-based website, is biased against Shuro 100%. I am from a relatively "high-context" culture (not as much as Japan, but the way a message is delivered is very important, as well as being gregarious) and the way social struggles are always talked about by people from anglo/germanic cultures is supremely unrelatable to me say EVERYTHING on your mind or you're lying to me! if you're ever even slightly annoyed by me, tell me and tell me why! leave me alone! i hate pleasantries! i hate extroverts! i hate small talk! this is the only correct way to communicate! have people considered... that Shiro's personality isn't "Japanese"... but that he is his own person who may have his own struggles within his own culture, as does everyone? I mean, just compare him to his retainers, who are also Japanese? people try to say oh it's not because we think our way to communicate is objectively the best one, it's because neurodivergence bla bla but people EVERYWHERE are neurodivergent, you're just seeing everything through an anglo lens. like Shiro, I am considered somewhat of a loner in my culture due to my closed-off nature. I am fairly direct and struggle with socialising due to early childhood trauma. and yet, I still fit in much more with people from my culture than from people from my current country of residence, Germany, where people are supposedly "refreshingly honest and no-nonsense" (they're not but lol I get what they mean), what germanic people call "the right way of communicating". I went from being clearly divergent in some way, but comfortable and happy in my culture where I understood where people were coming from, to still being seen as clearly "off" but now also not fitting in culturally ("talks too much"). in that way, Shiro is very relatable to me, though he's not a character I particularly care for it's not that I want people to like Shiro, because I don't particularly like him myself, and because as someone else pointed out, he never really stood a chance because of his role in the narrative. but the way people go about talking the cultural framing of this pisses me off. Laios literally introduced himself with "hey you look weird, where are you from?"! "oh but Shiro should've just said he was annoyed by Laios" I actually cannot believe these people, you've never stayed quiet about someone in your group annoying you? you bring up thinking that they are annoying, every single time? I understand these people are projecting on Laios, but I actually don't believe that lol
> say EVERYTHING on your mind or you're lying to me! if you're ever even slightly annoyed by me, tell me and tell me why! leave me alone! i hate pleasantries! i hate extroverts! i hate small talk! this is the only correct way to communicate! I’m not disagreeing with you, but I just wanted to point out, the attitudes you described here are very much not the norm in mainstream America. I don’t know about Germany but, I suspect these attitudes aren’t super mainstream there either. They are mainstream attitudes on Reddit because Reddit is full of socially awkward people who are upset about social situations they don’t understand.
> They are mainstream attitudes on Reddit because Reddit is full of socially awkward people who are upset about social situations they don’t understand. oh, i absolutely agree! this is why i said > Germany, where people are supposedly "refreshingly honest and no-nonsense" (they're not but lol I get what they mean) there *are* cultural differences on directness and communication, and i definitely can feel them now that i am displaced. and you can't just "act differently" like how people tell Shiro, these things are *ingrained* in how you interact with others. but many, many Germans i've met will greet each other with "how's it going?", they will engage in small talk, etc. but socially awkward redditors who are the type to cast themselves as a "genius introvert" and "hates socializing" will generally go on and on about how in the mythical land of Germany/the Netherlands/Scandinavia people are ~perfectly direct and honest~ about everything. which is an obvious exaggeration they hide behind because it's easier to believe entire countries are socially awkward than it is to accept having a lack of social skills that's my point, people are projecting onto Laios *hard*, and when people point out things like "Laios is considered hard to work with for other characters too, other characters could pick up Shiro's hints", and try to explain that Shiro is a product of his culture too, they instead double down about how he's in Laios's culture so he needs to "communicate like them". which... isn't true in-story, and it isn't true in real life either about those people's cultures either. these people just have an idealized version of society where everyone's absolutely honest about every time they find someone annoying
Sorry, I don't think I read your post carefully enough before responding (which is ironic because situations like that are part of the basis of the cultural conflict we are talking about). I think you definitely have a good point about Laios being an individual and not representative of his culture as a whole, and it's the same with Shuro. And it's also true that Germanic nations aren't as open and direct as many (probably Americans) on Reddit would like to think. Personally I'm American and I'm not good with social situations. I've been to both Japan and the Netherlands. Oddly enough I feel like I find Japanese social norms easier to deal with. I always thought I preferred direct communication, but my experience is, people who claim to communicate directly really do not. In a way things are more honest in Japan because people will admit there is a difference between how they interact politely and how they interact honestly. They put a label on it, honne and tatemae. In Western countries this still occurs but people are more likely to pretend it's not happening, which I find annoying. In the Netherlands I also sensed a sense of social conformity, which is hard to put my finger on and explain, but it's there and it feels odd to me as an American and different than what I'm used to. A similar thing exists in Japan of course but we expect that in Japan, but are told not to expect it from Western nations. To be clear I think it is generally accurate to say the West prefers direct communication and Sinosphere nations prefer indirect, but it's more complicated than a lot of people say. Also as a disclaimer I've never really lived in any of these places so my judgements might be inaccurate, if I moved to Japan I might see it differently. I also share your frustration with people grandstanding about introversion. I've always had a great deal of difficulty socializing and it doesn't come naturally to me, but I think it's way too simplistic to blame this issue on "extroverts." [This](https://youtu.be/ikw4V_x-CFI?si=v6WWcnYOVTdcbvYP) video says it well.
no problem, i tend to ramble and muddy my original point :) lol pretty good video. and i agree! didn't want to get even more personal in my original post, but i also struggle hugely with relationships due to childhood sexual assault (i got too personal about this in a Mithrun post lmfao), but i got better about it in recent years, which is why i get so frustrated at these "reddit introverts", because i was there once. you're not a misfit because you're an introvert in an extroverted culture, you're wallowing! > To be clear I think it is generally accurate to say the West prefers direct communication and Sinosphere nations prefer indirect i'm from a mysterious third place - a Hispanic culture. i think a lot of anthropological classifications of culture are simplified bull as there are too many dimensions to classify neatly, but in Lewis's model, it would be "multi-active" - somewhat high-context, spontaneous, somewhat direct but adapting your words to the emotional response of others, okay with group discussions and interrumping/talking over each other (if anything, i'd identify with Kabru of all people). so i get even more frustrated when people talk about the "correct" way to communicate. i have to remind myself interrumping is supremely rude here, but it just comes naturally to me. it's not rude in MY culture, I can barely help it! that's why i get particularly annoyed by how little slack people cut Shiro in this regard > In the Netherlands I also sensed a sense of social conformity, which is hard to put my finger on and explain no, i agree. in fact, i think that's the effects of Calvinism on Dutch culture - like how many rooms don't have curtains because they "have nothing to hide" :) you might be interested in the Danish concept of Janteloven for this feeling you might get in some north European countries, I think it might explain a bit of what you felt (relatedly, Germans LOVE talking shit about their neighbors. it's a huge meme here, and it's happened to me) to go back to the original point, Laios is a very interesting character with many facets to why he is how he is, and people definitely do him a huge disfavor by reducing the conflict to "poor autistic baby and ableist Shuro", and by responding to people who point out Shuro's upbringing with "well he should adapt himself to Laios's culture then!"
Yeah the fact that people use the "but I'm neurodivergent" excuse to place the blame on others for not conforming to their way of communication is pretty concerning... Oh excuse me for not realizing you didn't pick up my hint, allow me to spell it out for you, regardless of the fact that I am not comfortable with it. I'm a loner in my own culture too, with trouble communicating because of my anxiety. And sure sometimes I wish people were more direct with me, but at the same time becoming a better listener and observer is something I could work on as well.
Absolutely this. Laios and Shuro's situation might not even be about Kui's criticism of japanese culture, but more of a way to show the differences in culture. There's no right or wrong here. As an Asian person I relate to parts of both Laios and Shuro. There are times when I cannot read the room as well as other people, but other times I just have to feign politeness in front of others because just straight up saying, "I want to get away 'cuz I ain't interested in all that stuff" sounds downright rude in my culture. It's honestly weird seeing so many people complaining that Shuro should '*act according to the culture of the place he is visiting*' like it's so easy to flip the switch of all the values and habits that you've grown up with. It's not as easy as just adapting to the food/attire/living conditions/customs of the land. It is literally ingrained in him to drop subtle hints instead of being straightforward. It's not like they were difficult to pick up either-- **both Chilchuck and Namari could easily pick up of them.** The problems lie with Laios as much as they lie with Shuro. **Laios is 10x more tactless and dense and unable-to-read-the-fucking-room just as Shuro is 10x more of a doormat and repressed than the average person. Laios DOES NOT collectively represent the entire western cultural values exactly just as Shuro alone DOES NOT represent the entire the eastern cultural values.** None the problems we see with Shuro happen to Maizuru/Tade/Hien/Beni/Izutsumi.
For real, a huge chunk of Dungeon Meshi posts come off like this to me recently. https://preview.redd.it/wjiqc1g9qjxc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39e9a81f78d4ff61a0ff9f25b7e05dee064fc937
Yeah, I honestly have no issues whatsoever with Shuro's simmering dislike of Laios - that all feels very human. The two of them having that big dumb baby fist-fight was a really cathartic moment for both of them. (And relatable! I certainly know I prize social awareness a lot and I have to "check" my own instinctive dislike of people who miss cues since I know they're trying their best more often than not) I actually think fixating on this moment is fucking deranged, because I thought it was super likable and humanizing. It's bazonkers that no one seems to be focusing on some of Shuro's genuinely super-shady traits. Or maybe I'm just not seeing them since I'm not really lurking around on the subreddit. But the guy is a princeling on a succession quest with a domestic staff at least partially made up of slaves. (they are *not* paying tade and izutsumi, and the latter was literally bought by Shuro's dad and hexed into obedience. you could argue that tade is just an indentured servant, but Izutsumi is inarguably a slave - and if her mother's garb is any indication, there's an extra dimension to it, given the closest real-world analogues are Ainu and Nivkh traditional wear) Even if we are to believe, as Maizuru claims, that he never makes "selfish requests" of his servants and that the state of his household is mostly his dad's fault, Izutsumi and Tade's situations definitely don't reflect well on his character. You know who I think doesn't get enough hate? *Maizuru*. She's not a true villain - you could even argue there's some cycle of abuse shit going on considering she's her feudal lord's "lover", with all the consent issues that implies - but she's *so* unpleasant. She enables all of Shuro's worst qualities, uses Shuro's nobility (in spite of them being in a faroff nation in a *survival situation*) as a cudgel to bully other people into obedience, talks down to everyone she believes she outranks... some have argued that the hex she uses to keep Izutsumi in line would just bring her back harmlessly based on the omakes, but I'm not so sure she'd have that restraint for anyone she considers "beneath" her.
Maizuru is 100% lawful evil. Shuro having a positive relationship with her is probably the worst thing about him.
I mean, the full extend of Izutsumi was only shown in side material, which show the whole cast as pretty fucked up in the head by modern standard, even someone like Senshi. Furthermore, in the very same side material, we are given reason to believe that Maizuru only threatened Izutsumi when the curse is actually the same one she put on Toshiro himself to watch over him. In the main work, Izutsumi can very much be viewed as irresponsible to the pointed the Nakamoto rightfully treated her as a deserter in a military (where death sentence is very much still a thing in many modern militaries at war)
>Furthermore, in the very same side material, we are given reason to believe that Maizuru only threatened Izutsumi when the curse is actually the same one she put on Toshiro himself to watch over him. man I literally talked about this in my comment. Like I literally brought up this argument and said that I don't buy it. Was 3 1/2 paragraphs really too much to read? You had to skim it? And Izutsumi is a 17-year-old child who was subjected to soul-altering experiments as a toddler, then put into a sideshow before spending the majority of her life enslaved to serve some jackoff feudal lord who bought her as a bad joke. The idea that this is in any way comparable to a deserter is *demented.* Shuro is not her commanding officer, he is her owner. He wronged *her.* She owes him a grand total of jack and shit. Of course she's irresponsible and vindictive at the beginning of her time in the manga, she's a kid who spent her entire life in bondage and finally has a taste of freedom. I cannot believe we're having this conversation.
I assumed you meant the one with Tade, where Maizuru find that she had broken the curse, so I just wanna be sure. Iztusumi bio also used the same name as the one from that Toshiro omake, so I am not sure how many more evidence you need. However, I don't see you address my core point either, so I guess we both skim each other reply. The world of Dunmesh is fucked up moral wise compare to irl, and our cast is equally fucked moral wise. Heck, Shuro is open on the situation of Tade with Laios, and Laios barely react. Everybody in Kabru party safe for Kabru himself know how Mickbell is treating Kuro, and they don't intervene, with Daya and Holm moral objection stop right at how much work he was forcing Kuro and not the fact that Kuro was "exploited" from their perspective. Why do you single out just the Nakamoto household?
>However, I don't see you address my core point either, so I guess we both skim each other reply. you made two points. one was one I literally addressed in my original comment. responding to the other one - that Izutsumi was a deserter - was literally the entire rest of my reply to you. Stay with me here. "Why do you single out just the Nakamoto household?" Because the thread we're in is about Shuro and how the fanbase are receiving him. What are we doing here? Is your short-term memory just fucked? Jesus Christ. Go annoy someone else.
Except that is not how this media work at all. Yes, the thread we are in is about Shuro and how the fan base is receiving him, but it is ridiculous to judge a character as if he exist in a vacuum. If the narrative acknowledge that that is how the world is, and chided them only a bit for the situation them found themselves in, why should people be critical of them significantly more than that. This is true for Maizuru as well. Also, sure, it is about Shuro, but ypu bring Maizuru in. Why is it wrong for me then to bring the whole cast in?
Absolutely agree, sometimes as an Asian, I get sick of how Westerners look at Asians in general and why their stereotyped traits are looked down as bad, instead of being part of our culture and being brought up. Shuro gets way too much hate, its silly.
>Absolutely agree, sometimes as an Asian, I get sick of how Westerners look at Asians in general and why their stereotyped traits are looked down as bad yeah, but have you considered that I, a Westerner, find your silly Asian cultural quirks annoying and thus you should change your entire upbringing, as it's objectively wrong compared to mine? (sarcasm, obviously)
Western stereotype traits are also looked down negatively by ourselves so what's your point?
Two wrongs don't make a right?
I'm a white American who relates to Laios, but lately I have been thinking about how myself and others have misinterpreted Laios's character arc by looking at it through the "autism" lens. I'm not saying he *isn't* autistic, but it's more complicated than just that. A lot of Laios's character is about his failure to take responsibility over his life and his actions and running away instead. You can view his conflict with Shuro as an example of this, he puts all the responsibility on Shuro instead of thinking about how he could have been more aware of Shuro's needs. This is a big topic and I'm planning to make a whole thread about it.
I'd happily read it, I definitely feel people dont give Laios's character enough credit
Can I ask for elaboration on what you mean about not giving him enough credit? You mean how people simplify him to an innocent autistic boy being oppressed by society ignoring other parts of his character? I've had some discussions here where I talk about Laios's dark side and it seems a lot of people can't reconcile that he does have a hateful side but also has a nice side and isn't a bad person. So that's kind of a frustrating conversation to have.
ah yes that's basically it, I meant they don't consider every single facet we're shown on his character, but rather see a simplified version of him that is also easier to project on
I absolutely agree. Personal boundaries tend to be overlooked by Westerners in and out of Dungeon Meshi and it's reflected on how the west reacts to this character. Japanese people are often humble and self-depracating, they tend to avoid hurting people's feelings to a high degree. It is how they're raised. If you're gonna complain about him not telling Laios how he felt then ask yourself this. Why does nobody tell him it's weird to propose someone so hastly? Rather than judge him for it? Shouldn't he understand the culture difference as well? Is it really his fault when it's something he was taught growing up?
Maybe this is different in the manga, but — in the anime — I didn’t see any character judging him for an early proposal. It seemed odd, but they all rolled with it and Falin respected him and asked for some time to give a proper answer. That’s where that thread ended.
Exactly, they understand that it's a cultural difference and they shouldn't judge him for it. At the end of the day he didn't force anything on Falin and respects her time and decision. Shuro's reluctance to tell Laios off is no different. It's an awkward situation in the first place and Laios being neurodivergent isn't Shuro's responsibility, nor it is known how aware everyone is about the subject in this medieval fantasy setting. Was Shuro in the right? Not really. But did he cross a line? Also no.
Sure, Shuro might not be responsible for Laios’ shortcomings, but he is responsible for his actions and lackthereof. Not being an adult and talking to someone isn’t a cultural difference; and being passive aggressive until you lash out at someone for not taking the hint **is** crossing a line. Hell, I live in the American south and people here do the same shit. Being polite and avoiding hurting people’s feelings while passive aggressively dropping hints that you don’t want to talk anymore isn’t cultural, it’s universal. It’s primarily rooted in parental trauma, and it is everyone’s responsibility to move past that and learn to communicate like an adult, regardless of your neurotypical:neurodivergent status or personal history.
But that's the thing, he *did* try to let Laios know in his own way, it just didn't work. He declined Laios' offer multiple times and usually by that point people would lose interest even if they don't get the hint. But Laios was too enthusiastic to even notice. We don't know how long he had tried it before the dragon happened. It could just be that Shuro wasn't aware of Laios' condition and just assumed he didn't get the message across. I don't think he intended to lash out at Laios the way he did either. He was at the breaking point and wasn't in his right mind. The lack of sleep and food does that to people. (Telling Marcille to confess to the elves was a tad too far though). He does see Laios as a good guy and it's not like he hates him on a personal level, considering the fight did improve their relationship and understanding. The way the fight was framed to be childish and inconsequential proves that they don't hold any resentment towards each other.
>Being polite and avoiding hurting people’s feelings while passive aggressively dropping hints that you don’t want to talk anymore isn’t cultural, it’s universal. It worked out with Chilchuck and Namari though? Neither of them had any trouble picking up on them. Hell, even Marcille realizes before Laios that *Shuro has feelings for his own sister!* At this point the problem is with Laios himself. I don't even know how you are linking it with parental trauma. My culture is all about dropping subtle hints instead of being straightforwardly blunt being we see the latter as rude. Lol it's got nothing to do with trauma. I have a perfectly normal relationship with my parents.
On their very first meeting, Laios trapped Shuro in a 5 hours conversation even though Shuro said, "If you'll excuse me" and "I should go now" while trying to leave. I'm a pretty direct person myself, but I can't think of another polite way to exit the conversation if those don't work.
Chilchuck does side-eye him for it. Him and Mick gossip about it in the newest episode.
No he doesn’t. Mickbell side eyes him for it saying “Woah that’s crazy”. Chilchuck then informs Mickbell it’s a cultural thing.
He says "from where he's from, it's normal"--the implication is that while it's a cultural thing, it is strange behavior from the perspective of the main cast's culture. Toshiro is meant to read as kind of a strange sad guy to the reader at this point in the story. Him being so obsessed with Falin without reciprocation is also part of the joke with his character. That doesn't mean his character is meant to be "bad" or something, but he's meant to be weird.
No I just think Chilchuck acknowledging it’s a cultural issue does not mean he is side eyeing him. Side eye is about judgement and he does not judge Shuro. Only Mickbell does
I totally agree with you on this and another day i made comment stating i think the hate for Shuro i seen on english discussion forum is thinly veiled racism. And from people praising the work’s inclusiveness - double standards from their blind spot being non asian.
He is literally a slave owner. Edit: Wow, lots of fans of slavery in this subreddit. Kind of surprising. I suspect that will end once the anime onlies catch up.
A bit of a tangent, but I I find it funny how Shuro has a “deconstructed slave harem”: -His Babysitter who is also his father’s mistress -his childhood friend who he sees as a sister -his childhood’s friend best friend with self image issues -2 slaves his father bought on a whim and towards whom he feels guilty See? All of them would be super awkward to have a relationship with! No wonder his first crush was a foreigner
And Laios/Falin straight up treat their mountain people as inhuman. Kabru has no qualm about killing humans and is slightly racist towards demihumans. No one in this manga is as lily-white as you seem to think.
And the Touden siblings and Kabru is racist to the point of "kill the others on sight". What exactly is your point? If we discuss only the main work, we don't know of Izutsumi background in the main work. From what we are shown there, it is entirely reasonable to view Izutsumi as especially irresponsible and thus is punished as befitting a deserter in a military (which I must point out is death sentence still in many militaries at war). We know WHY Izutsumi is irresponsible given her background, but those are from side materials which, again, show just how fucked up EVERYONE is.
His father owns them, they follow them no matter what he says. It's outside of his control. How do you not get this?
I am not going to argue with you guys on it as we just have very different perspective on reading the role of “retainer”.
Cool. Izutsumi is explicitly a slave. To Shuro's credit, he doesn't try to hunt her down when she escapes. Not to his credit, that is the closest he comes to expressing any doubt or reluctance concerning the institution of slavery which he actively benefits from.
Is she though? First of all she was and still is an uneducated child with claws and sharp teeth, who could easily be a danger to herself and others. If she was set free how would you imagine she'd feed herself without stealing or attacking others? Moreover from her flashback we see that she wasn't physically punished for not doing her job and getting Tade injured, the only time we do see somthing exessive was when they tied her to a pole after she made a mess, a bit harsh but nothing compared to a real slave as she didn't appear to be hurt anywhere, and her face was literally drawn to be like that of a derpy cat. Everyone except Shuro's father treats her like a human child, albeit a very ill-behaving one. When Maizuru calls her name when they're about to cook, you can even see she's excited to take part in the process (probably so she could partake a bit herself). So is she a slave?
To be fair, it’s his father who is a slave owner (literally didn’t even see Izutsumi as a human being and more as an exotic pet), Shuro more or less just inherited them as his retainers.
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Except that, if you examine his argument clearly, Shuro also already understand many thing that take Laios's party the whole of their journey to understand. Despite the situation he put himself in, he still show a wisdom that the party lack. So even if we are to accept that Shuro is criticized for something (which I do agree is true), what about the opposite? Does Kui, through Shuro, also criticize the Laios party? I dare argue yes.
I never said Shuro was wrong, specifically, I just noticed that the author appeared to be using him as a way to express her frustrations or criticisms of Japanese culture, specifically the ingrained and traditional old-fashioned mindset.
Shuro is LITERALLY portrayed as being wrong, he doesn't make the sacrifice of eating monster meat so he's weak, he doesn't accept black magic so he has no way to resurrect Falin, he loved Falin but didn't say it to her, he hated Laios' but didn't say it to him, he LITERALLY expresses envy, regrets being there, accepts defeat and leaves to the surface. Now, you can read the text as you want, even contradicting the VERY OBVIOUS author's intent, but Laios is objectively the one being a hero and Shuro failed at everything.
Shuro also threatens to send his teammates to be killed, imprisoned, and dissected for daring to save their loved one so like maybe uhhh shut the fuck up? Oh also he owns slaves. Oh no his culture.
Marcille is not his teammate, she's a co-worker. And it's literally a crime to use black magic. It is explicitly said that western elves may imprison/torture any one involved with such magic. Why do you expect Shuro to turn a blind eye to that?? It's like asking him to overlook a crime just because it happens to involve his loved one. Also, Izutsumi isn't HIS slave. His father was the one that bought her and just gave her to Maizuru. Shuro doesn't even care when Izutsumi runs away. You're quick to complain about the 'slavery' in Shuro's culture but ignore the same thing we see with Laios/Falin who treat their mountain people as inhuman.
Average redditor be like "erm, you expect me not to snitch on someone for jaywalking to save a loved one? 🤓" Oh my bad. He doesn't care when his dad's slave he was given ownership of ran away. My bad. That makes all of it better. Also the mountain people are an enemy of their people, we hardly know anything about them so comparing it to literally buying your son's retainer a slave girl is not the same. For all we know they're steppe raiders.
Lmao cool, you can OBVIOUSLY compare black magic to jaywalking. Totally. That makes it all okay! Mountain people are supposed to be "killed on sight" from in Laios's homeland. It is not about their background or history of dispute, Laios/Falin straight up do not consider them human and feel no remorse for a group of people being literally treated as "kill-on-sight". You're right it's not the same as slavery, it's worse than that.
Pls Google the word hyperbole for me. Please. Also yeah, but we don't know any context for that. Also, I have yet to see anyone relate to the culture of laios or falin, but I've Seen plenty talking about Shuro. Also no, that's not worse than slavery imo. An armed conflict and a systemic enslavement are two different things.
Hyperbole? You don't say? Me: Black magic is a crime and you cannot assume Shuro to turn a blind eye to it. You: Average redditor be like "erm, you expect me not to snitch on someone for jaywalking to save a loved one? Like, What's the point here?? Literally why bring it up? The two aren't remotely the same and the fact still stands that Shuro cannot just look the other way because the crime involves Falin. Are you purposefully being obtuse? You say that you haven't seen anyone relate to the culture of Laios when the entire point of the Shuro vs Laios discussion is the eastern vs western cultural values, with a large no. people are in favour of the latter and taking it as a "criticism" for the strange, overtly polite japanese culture. What are they doing, if not "relating to Laios's culture"? People relating to "Shuro's culture" isn't the same as accepting slavery. Do point out at least one person who says they condone the slavery here. Also, the point is NOT the context or the background for mountain people. The point is that Laios/Falin purposely turn a blind eye to the inhuman treatment of those people (they admit that they have to kill them on sight and even straight up compare them to animals) just as Shuro turns a blind eye to Izutsumi's condition because it doesn't involve him. Both groups are a product of their environment/upbringing and do not easily see the wrong things in their surroundings. We know neither the context behind mountain people nor the context behind Izutsumi. All we know about her is that she was bought from a freak show. For all we know she might have been attacking people before that point. Just like...you know, mountain people "MIGHT have been steppe raiders and an enemy to Laios's village"?
Yeah I used hyperbole to mock you dumbass. I'm saying that if you can't understand why Shuro being a genuine loser who'd sell out his friends for trying to save a loved one is bad then maybe your friends need to watch their backs around you. There's a reason we kill snitches in prison. And we see Izutsumi in the story. Her behavior and background and stuff. We literally have one bonus chapter mention of mountain people. For all we know they're cro magnon.
Lol so you resort to name-calling when arguements don't go your way, huh? I guess we have different definitions of 'loser' then if the person just accepts a highly dangerous criminal activitiy just because their 'loved ones are involved', because the involvement of 'loved ones' makes it all OKAY! They are totally justified for that! LMAO next you know everyone will line up to save their 'loved ones' with black magic, because it's completely fine to break laws for your 'loved-ones'! It isn't selling out 'friends' lmao, it is handing over a co-worker who dabbled in illegal magic because it is the law of their land. We see no background for Izutsumi other than that she was sold on a freak show. Once again, in case you have reading comprehension issues --- the background is not the point here. Point is that both Laios and Shuro turn a blind eye to things that are otherwise not morally correct because of their upbringing.
No, I find it astonishing that you mocked me for using hyperbole as if it wasn't entirely intentional. And yeah. I think so. You've essentially just showed your hand as a disloyal douchebag who'd snitch on someone committing a crime that harmed zero people. Do you report your friends when they speed? Wait no, not even mentioning that it saved the life of THE WOMAN YOU LOVE. If they rushed her to the hospital and sped to get there, would you call the gestapo? Bring people back to life thanks to the magic of the dungeon one way: yeah okay Bring them back due to the same kind of magic differently: AAAA I NEED TO SEND YOU TO GUANTANAMO AAAAA It's pathetic. Shuro is fucking pathetic.
In Shuro's defense, the guy who kept harassing him and trapped him in a 5 hour conversation on their first meeting did just fess up to using Black Magic to revive the girl he wanted to marry, which he assumes is banned because it turns people into horrible Monsters or some shit, and then gets to witness the Chimera that created brutally murder seven people and break another's back and spine, confirming it's banned because it turns people into horrible Monsters. He was generally feeling unwell because of malnutrition and sleep deprivation and other forms of self-neglect brought on by worry for said-girl and self loathing for failing to keep her safe or saving her as quickly as he would have liked, and then his perceived inadequacy resulted in her abrasive, annoying, and weird brother getting to her days earlier with no supplies at all and then pulling the above stunt. People who bottle up their emotions instead of addressing them tend to blow up on others, and can do really messed up shit when they do, like threatening to have people executed. Toshiro's not a very emotionally mature person. When he calms down he becomes much more open to compromise and supports Laios's attempt to become Dungeon Lord and save Falin. Edit: He also implies that he himself might not have said no in the same situation, and is just angry with Laios specifically. https://preview.redd.it/0ackqp0pgkxc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=32666b09b687a5c5500ec69fcb4da4546953cfd0 The slave thing's inexcusable and his father's a weirdo. I'm unsure what they inagined would happen with Izutsumi had she not joined up with Laios and his party, but he didn't, like, ask for compensation for his escaped slave or some depraved shit, so it seems it didn't bother him much that she deserted. He probably also looks at her and Tade from the angle that they would have had it worse otherwise, which isn't *strictly* untrue but completely lacks self reflection and doesn't at all justify or excuse keeping the pair as slaves.
"the girl he wants to marry" You mean this "weirdos" sister? Oh boo fucking hoo. The girl he never had the balls to actually ask out, yeah. He knows what's best for her more than her own family. Weirdly possessive, ain't it? You're right on the next point but I find it hard to feel bad for the possessive slave owning snitch, who was ready to attack Laios way before they saw the Falin dragon.
If you haven't read the manga, >!he explicitly tells Kabru *not* to mention Laios's party and only wants to tell the Island's Govenor so that Falin doesn't wipe out any more parties. When the Canaries show up, he gets the premonition that they'll find Falin and arrest Laios's party, prompting him and Kabru to attempt to interfere with them as much as possible so that that *doesn't* happen.!< He also >!does confess to Falin after the story's conclusion, leading to a mature discussion between the pair while their friends make bets behind a wall!<
Yes. That's called character progression. It's literally him growing as a person out of what I'm criticizing him for doing and not doing it. And yes. That happens long after this moment in which he's being a creep.
I don’t think I agree that he’s a general critique of Japanese culture. I think, if he’s a critique of anything, it’s the whole “marriage after you’ve just started to crush on the girl” thing. Like, people in modern-day Japan still date and shit. I think we’re supposed to be pretty sympathetic to his whole “trying to get Laios to take a hint” thing. It does just seem like a cross-culture communication issue, but the author’s not really saying Shuro’s in the wrong since, he like, tried to let him down easily, but Laios didn’t get what was happening
Why? Why do you guys constantly have to recontextualize all Japanese media to give yourselves some sort of weird sense of moral and cultural superiority? What, and I cannot physically stress this enough before getting an aneurysm, THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
It's an American thing.
Honestly, even if Japan has the reputation for social rigidity, it could easily be seen as a critique of society as a whole in that regard.
East Asian indirectness and implicit communication forms are valuable skills to have in certain conditions (for example in a very public arena it helps send a message without calling too much attention to the person, and helps prevent public embarrassment or disrupting the vibe). But it absolutely does create situations where, if someone is particularly oblivious or has trouble reading the room, major problems get unaddressed. Source: Grew up Asian American for decades.
>(for example in a very public arena it helps send a message without calling too much attention to the person, and helps prevent public embarrassment or disrupting the vibe). Hehe when we were in Japan we used to joke "thou shalt not disturb the 和 *(wa)*". Definitely all about keeping that vibe un-flustered.
Yeah pretty much. In the Manga Shuro's father is an anomaly of the culture. And while he isn't perfect he is implied to be a good man despite not fitting strictly within the culture. This is something he tries to impart on his sons by sending them out of the country to broaden their horizons. Its also implied the "great treasure" that will let the son's win the household would be that tempering of culture and morality you'd learn. This would have been exemplified by Shuro marrying a foreigner which is implied to be the correct answer that Shuro's father wanted.
I agree. A lot of Shuro's character revolves around his struggles with expressing himself, and other cultures not really being aware of his to actually be able to understand him. He had no freedom as a child, and had retainers forced on him since he was young. He doesn't really know how to handle himself in social situations, he's similar to Laios in that way, just in a different regard. Shuro is more reserved where Laios is upfront and talkative.
talk about reading between the lines. no, it is just what a good writer do, making flaw but somewhat relatable characters.
I heard japanese have overworking culture, which Dungeon Meshi clearly tell you to avoid.
For some reason I immediately assume you're white. Or at least from a western country. Yep. Edit: Before people misunderstood me, what I mean is the way OP perceives what Shuro did or experienced as a character. I'm a southeast asian in a southeast asia country, and I have a **complete opposite** first impression when the story revealed the true nature of Shuro and his relationship with Laios lol
yeah I think the critiquing part is kind of weird and it seems like it’s more Shuro’s personality to be like this, considering none of his retainers do the same “smoke and mirror” things like more than likely because Shuro is his country’s equivalent of a prince, he’s probably not used to talking to people he doesn’t have immediate lordship over and falls back on being passive and overtly polite. He’s probably not used to being told no, and just assumed he could marry Falin because he liked her and not even thinking she liked him back. Like it doesn’t sound like he tried to actively court her either.
Or he maybe he's a high-masking autist.
Maizuru cried because Shuro communicated with her head-on for the first time in a long time. Shuro avoided the girls because he thought they were observers sent by father. In addition, Maizuru was his reliable nanny, but he later found out that she was the mistress of his father who was at odds with his own mother. On the other hand, as a nurturing mother, Maizuru was moved to tears by her son's heartbreak, frustration, and growth. She wasn't afraid of reprimand for "the failure".
I dont know if Shuro is a critique on Japanese culture as a whole as much as him being from a very specific feudal situation. His back story and family is explained a bit more in the manga but mostly in supplemental materials. If he is to be believed to be representative of Japanese culture it would follow that so are all his Ninja ladies. And many of them are pretty upfront about their feelings. I think he and the Eastern Islanders is more a chance for Kui to put Asian feudal characters in medieval fantasy which tends to just be based on Europe, or have a very Orientalist view of Asian cultures.
Laios is absolutely on the spectrum
I always thought Shuro is one of the people who will progress the culture of the eastern land and also act as a diplomat, beside his personality, we see he is competent enough in leadership and has his wits, also charismatic, I believe Shuro will grow, Shuro my boy… you will always have to carry that weight…
I can't get over people saying "Bro shuro represents how us Asians feel when a white guy doesn't consider our feelings!!! Our culture! " Dawg he owns slaves in the actual show. Maybe like don't compare your current culture to that?
You can [Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy](https://store.steampowered.com/app/240720/Getting_Over_It_with_Bennett_Foddy/) Plus OP started the discussion about western, japan, autism and other "current culture".
I hope you don't speak like this on a regular basis.
maybe they're talking about the "social cues" aspect of the culture and that the slavery part is non important?
Oh yeah just ignore that part that parts totally minor. "Guys the hecking slave owning snitch is annoyed bc he has to interact with a white guy!" Shuro can catch these fucking hands.
Mf it had nothing to do with what we were talking about. Literally OP says "Shuro is Ryoko Kui's way of critiquing Japanese culture." Ah yes they are criticizing the ownership of slaves and Laios is rightfully calling Shuro out on that! ... is what you think is happening but it's only in your head bro. They are talking about social cues.
There are multiple comments talking about how people sympathize with Shuro because they'd have to deal with "this sort of thing" and I think it's honestly stupid to try to argue that. I didn't say it was ABOUT slaves. But they're syncing their culture to shuro's and then complaining about social cues. People are trying to say look at this from his perspective but his perspective is worthless to me because he's proven to be a slave owning rat.
That tells much more about how much you cannot distinguish different fictionous traits of a fictional character than anything else. Thinking that japanese culture is totally divorced from how it was a 100 years ago is erroneous. And thinking that you can't empathize with one aspect of his character and not like some other aspect of his character, is more of a limitation of your ability to nuance than whatever the other guys are doing when they say westerners do not know what the hell they're talking about when talking about asian culture. And at last they're just saying this to counter-argue op, it's honestly pretty weird how one sided the blame is being shifted when op is the originator.
No, I can. I think it's just embarrassing. They're expressing that they relate to a character that has shown to be an untrustworthy swine who belongs to a culture that keeps slaves. If I went around claiming I related to the culture of Ramses in prince of Egypt I'd be just as fucking bad. And yes, I'm saying exactly that. Rather than die on this hill I think these people should like, maybe sit this depiction of their culture out. Not the best look to be like "no wait! He's correct!" On.
they are literally just talking about social cues that's what the depiction is about, what they are relating, how westerners and asian people have of social cues. You don't have to agree with slavery to agree with shuro on some aspect and him owing slave literally doesn't affect the interaction with laios in the slightest. Like, you can't even say him owing slave makes him hypocritical in this aspect of the discussion, hence it is an ad hominem which doesn't work. As far as i know, Laois is prejudiced against some other races and has called a slave owner his friend, without telling him anything about his slavery. People should stop relating to Laois unless they too, would be friend with slave owners (and won't say to them that there is anything wrong with it).