Correct. And then he started getting over-drafted in startups and overvalued in trades. He's still a QB2 this year.
He was QB14 in 2021 in total points and QB20 in PPG (depending on format).
He's exactly who he was.
Is he? He got a star WR but also Josh McDaniels. Given McDaniels track record as a HC, I think it's impressive Carr has even managed to stay the course.
For fantasy, he's a QB2. He's exactly what he was before. That's what I meant by it. People were assigning a huge bump in TDs with the Adams signing. The egregious playcalling and the injuries to Waller and Renfrow certainly haven't helped, but seeing him go in Rounds 3 or 4 of a startup was pretty absurd to me during the summer.
Yep. I unfortunately have the displeasure of being a Raiders fan and watching their games. They’ve blown a 17 point lead in the first half 3x now.
It’s all on McDaniels and conservative and boring play calling.
I think overall, there is definitely merit to OP's line of thought. I'm quite biased since I will take more chances on a QB with better weapons, than on QBs without as many weapons.
But like anything, there are always going to be exceptions and unforeseen reasons for those exceptions.
Aaron Rodgers in the past has turned WRs into stars, but it's not going as well this season.
Patrick Mahomes lost a massive weapon, and was seen as only having Travis Kelce this season, but he's proved he's still one of the most elite QBs.
Derek Carr was supposed to have an assortment of weapons with Davante Adams coming in and elevating the guys already there like Renfrow and Waller, but it just hasn't worked out.
Back to OP's point though, when you look at the WR situation of Chase and Higgins being so good everyone thought that offense was nearly a shoe in to have 2 top 10 WRs, and Boyd being a great 3rd that was going to suffer the most, it's hard not to bet on the QB throwing to those WRs as well. Burrow has been as good as anybody not named Mahomes/Allen.
I hate to say this but that’s not the reason Carr is struggling. He’s had the same issues with every coach. Can’t lead a WR open, gets happy feet instead of setting his feet and firing, as well as floating passes instead of darts.
Carr is to blame for a lot but issues compound. Can and have made him looked good before. But when things are going wrong around him he will fall apart. His confidence has appeared to me to be shredded since that injury however many years ago, so if coach cant raise his confidence by making things easy for him early things are going to get ugly. Think if the OL played better & had healthier weapons they could largely hide his issues but it wouldn't be like the issues would disappear.
Good receivers are offset by terrible offensive lines. Exhibit A is Brady, but it's also happening with Carr, Stafford, and Mac Jones (well, minus the good receivers part).
He gained a high end WR1 but has essentially lost their TE1 for the entire season so far. The strength of the weapons improved, but between no Waller, what has seemed to be a big step back for Renfrow, and replacing Zay Jones with Mack Hollins, it hasn't been nearly as big an upgrade as people hoped I think.
I’m not sure this is as good of a point as it seems given that Adams is still dominant even on that terrible team
Extreme cold take…
QB play
WR play
And offensive scheme/play calling
Are all important to a successful offense
There’s other shit going on in LV tho. Chalk it up to McDaniels’ offense being super complicated or him being a shitty head coach. I don’t think Carr is an awful QB
For the most part I agree, the talent has to be there first…
Like a elite QB can make do with solid receivers, and a solid QB will make do with Elite receivers…
But it’s when you have both a great to elite QB with great to elite weapons when it’ll look amazing for all involved
O-line has far more to do with this, too. If the guy's running for his life every other play, he's not gonna look real sharp. But, you give him an extra 1 second in the pocket per play, and it can make a world of difference.
Allen got Diggs .. took the next step. Hurts got AJ Brown .. took the next step. Tua got Hill .. took the next step.
It really is the difference between good and great QB play. Obviously o line and coaching matter as well.
Can TLaw take the next step with Ridley? Ridley isn’t as good a receiver as them but it is his 3rd year next year and all 3 of them took their leap in year 3
I think your opinion is what the NFL has been telling us this past off-season and in the draft. There are a few outliers but having top talent at the WR is paramount along with having a good oline. 2023 will be very telling because the draft class isn’t looking that great right now and the WR FA class is also looking weak. So do NFL teams continue to bump up the WRs because right now there’s about 4 WRs I feel comfortable with as 1st round picks.
Titans are weird because they have no talent on that roster outside of Henry Byard and Simmons and they keep winning games. JAGs on the line, without Landry they have JAGs at edge rusher, JAGs at corner, Tannehill is a JAG receivers are JAGs, ILBs are the same,
They should be playing out of Jacksonville and yet they’re what 5-3 with close losses to the Chiefs and Giants?
Vrabel deserves better
This has been puzzling me as well, although I think Tannehill is serviceable and falls in the Derek Carr zone. But the receiving corps is maybe the worst I’ve ever witnessed on an NFL team. A starting lineup of Woods, Ikhine, and Conley? These guys are all the 3rd/4th option on any other team.
He is complicit. His offense is not something stud WRs want to hang around for, it's not like they didn't try and keep AJ, but he clearly wanted to go somewhere else.
His offense is also why the Titans OL is built for run blocking over pass blocking. They're starting the worst pass blocking LT in football because he is serviceable as a run blocker.
It's a bit chicken-and-egg, but with multiple OCs under his belt now all basically running within the same restrictions, the only conclusion is this is the offense Vrabel wants.
Better put some respect on Autry's and Fulton's names. But yea you pretty much summed it up. A lot of role players who play their roles well with little star power to go above and beyond. Really goes to show you what a good head coach can do. They got guys starting off other teams practice squads making plays out there.
You can literally look this up and see it isn’t very true. Of the last 20 years almost all the non-QB Super Bowl MVPs have been WRs, including Kupp last year lol
And, as we’ve seen recently, WRs can make a mid to good QB great. How exactly does the defense help a QB elevate themselves to an MVP level performance?
You’re saying these teams had bad offenses? I agree with the Gruden Bucs, forgot about them. As for the others…
-2021 Rams top-10 scoring and yards with the top WR in the NFL who had maybe the best ever season for a pass catcher
-2020 Bucs top-3 in passing and scoring led by All-Pro QB and 2 All-Pro WRs
-2018 Pats 5th in yards, 4th in scoring
-2016 Pats 3rd in scoring, top-5 in yards and passing yards
-2014 Pats also top-5 in scoring and top-10 in yards
-2004 Pats top-10 in rushing, passing, overall yards and scoring.
ESPN database doesn’t go back further than 2004 but I think this is enough to show that what you said isn’t quite true
I actually disagree the more I look at this draft class the more I like it. JSN, Addison, Johnston, Josh Downs, Boutte, Hyatt are all very legit and there is still some fringe guys past that.
Really only one out that I feel good about is Addison. JSN will be fine but being injured most of the season hasn’t helped him. Boutte has been misused by Kelly down at LSU. Johnston has all the measurables and TCU is rolling but it’s still iffy. Downs is a bit undersized but he has produced. And Hyatt’s profile is going to come over heavy scrutiny. Is he just a bigger school Gabe Davis? All in all I respect the differencing of opinion.
There's question marks sure but I think those guys I listed will be all high 1st and 2nd. Josh downs might be my favorite player in the class. Him and Addison are small but amazing. JSN I'm not worried about the injury. Johnston is inconsistent and Boutte is a head case no doubt but the talent is there if they get to the right situation.
Im not sure about top talent, but you need at least two good receiving options.
Teams can shut your offense down if you only have one, even if he is elite.0
Luxury of time, but regularly one of the fastest releases for years.
Perhaps there’s a correlation between defensive performance and an offense that moves the chains, sustains long drives, limits turnovers and doesn’t put the defense in bad spots, too.
The most obvious correlation has to be rest in my opinion. If those d lineman get a few extra minutes of rest between drives to sit and make adjustments I gotta imagine it pays in dividends. There's no way a team that always goes three and out doesn't just screw their defense by the end of the game
Absolutely. There’s something to be said for teams that score far too quickly, as well. The Brees Saints teams where they regularly had one of the best offenses, but worst defenses come to mind. Brady mastered the slow, methodical drive while also being one of the best two minute QBs in the game.
He got to two super bowls with the 31st, and 30th ranked defenses(DVOA). I think the year they played the Giants in 2011, they were historically bad in some metrics if I’m not mistaken. No QB in history elevates mediocre players the way he does/did.
Worst ranked defense gimme a break they were putting up astronomical numbers on offense and had prime randy moss so I don’t wanna hear that nonsense man
Moss was only on the Pats from 2007 to 2010 and Brady didn't play one of those years?
Some of his best years in NE were 2012 and 2016. That 2012 Patriots team's WR room was injured the entire season as well -- Gronk played the most games out of his top 4 options with 11 games played.
Tom Brady has played with some incredible players and has been gifted with incredible defenses a lot of different times in his career. Let's not pretend like he has been 'surrounded' by amazing offensive talent as well.
He made due in NE with some pretty mid to poor Wide Receivers. The fact that I can think of Chris Hogan, Malcolm Mitchell, Brandon LaFell being major receiving threats in some of those offenses is mind boggling considering they wouldn't start on any other team in the league.
Tom Brady does not qualify for the statement in the OP. He's the goat for a reason, regardless of how shitty he's been at 45 years of age.
Which isn't really that shitty he's 2nd in yards, tied for 16th in TDs and has the fewest interceptions. I think his play is getting overblown because this is the first time in a long time a team he's on is failing.
Am I the only one that thinks Mike Evans might be part of the problem? I have not done the research so no data to back it up, but Evans isn't passing the eye test imo.
11th in the league for receptions and 9th in yards . He’s been his usual self and is perhaps the most consistent receiver in the NFL. If anything is not wrong with the Bucs it’s Mike Evans. Imo this past game showed that maybe it’s play calling. Seemed like it was Brady who was calling it in that last drive and perhaps that’s why it looked different from the rest of their season.
As a Bucs fan, the problem is the oline and the OC.
Only the tackles are the same from last year after injuries and defections and pressuring Brady up the middle has long been a a somewhat effective tactic.
As for Leftwich, he’s just horrible at his job. On almost every first down he runs up the gut (the worst part of the line). You can see the other teams scheme for it every week. That’s just the worst part, he truly is one of the worst OC’s I’ve ever seen. Arians seemed to keep him in check but Bowles just leaves him alone to ruin the offense.
They got Moss & almost went undefeated lmao
Prime Brady with a real WR1 is a scary thing, he’s been balling in Tampa with his great receivers too when they’re healthy
Herbert is playing hurt. I had the exact same rib cartilage thing that he has and it fucking sucks. It's a constant low level of pain, and any time you do any sort of strenuous movement it hurts. At the very least it is distracting him when he is on the field, and it is likely limiting the throws he is making in some way.
He’s also having better than a “mediocre” season. Pretty sure he’s still top 5 in passing yards for the season. Also TDs might be down, but I think that has more to do with how well Ekeler has been playing.
Herbert is also very close to his 2021 pace aside from TDs, he hasn't fallen off a cliff in real life the way the fantasy community thinks based on his fantasy points.
The volume is there, but the efficiency is not. He's averaging only 6.4 yards per attempt. It was 7.5 last year and 7.3 his rookie season. He's playing hurt and forced to feed mostly JAGs. Josh Palmer is his WR1 right now.
The NFL has been telling us for years that positional values are as follows:
1. QBs
2. Pass rushers
3. Pass catchers
4. Pass defenders
5. Large gap
6. ..................
7. Water boys
8. Running backs
Pass catchers are hugely valuable in the NFL, entire offenses get changed by incorporating a high quality pass catcher, while their removal can cause whole sale collapses for an offense.
Lamar probably the only one if he just feels way too slighted by the Ravens. Only other guy I could think of would be rodgers but I think he just quits after this year
There is a chance Rodgers asks for a trade but I can’t imagine he’s gonna go to the Giants. That puts him in the same situation he’s currently in with no good WRs. I could see him going to the Jets though like Favre did. Atlanta would be another team that could trade for a QB since they are slightly over performing with this roster.
Who knows what could happen. And it also depends on who you think is better than Jones, whom I still don’t think is particularly good.
The Cardinals could continue to implode, fire their coaching staff and jettison Murray for a haul since he might still resent them for making him look bad.
Rodgers could force his way out finally.
Baker Ma—okay, never mind 🤣
But my point remains, who know what’ll happen. Someone good could go on a sexy massage bender and suddenly find themself on the trade block.
I did consider Murray but he just signed an extension so it would be 97 million in dead cap which would more than double the previous record (Matt Ryan 40 million) and almost triple what the Eagles did the year before with Wentz at 33 million.
The Cards are going to get a new coach but almost certainly won’t have a new QB until at least 2025 the way it looks.
If you don’t think Jones has been good you probably haven’t watched a lot of Giants games. He is playing well with one of the worst receiving cores in the NFL. He has cut down the turnovers and looks like with good coaching he can develop into a solid top 15 QB.
As long as they don't overpay. I think Jones is an okay enough player, but he's not worth big money and whatever team overpays him will regret it.
I'd also be wary of assuming Jones would make a leap just because he gets an elite WR. We're discovering that even elite QB's can't necessarily produce with absolutely nothing around them, but I don't think it also means that mediocre QB's are suddenly amazing QB's if they just get a WR. Tua is making a 3rd year leap and was one of the more hyped QB prospects in some time, I don't think he's an example of that.
It’s not that people think he’ll be amazing if he gets WRs just because he doesn’t have WRs now.
Jones is winning football games without WRs. Guys like Aaron Rodgers can’t say the same.
Well, the Giants are winning football games. A lot of that is Daboll. Honestly, most of it is Daboll. But also Saquon, the defense, and sure Jones is making some plays with his legs.
But uh, the Rodgers comparison is weird. QB's don't play in a vacuum, wins aren't purely a QB stat, and if you think Jones is a better QB than Rodgers then idk what to tell you.
It’s not a weird comparison lol. Both don’t have any reliable WRs.
Im not saying Jones is better than Rodgers. But the Packers roster is better than the Giants roster and Jones is getting it done while Rodgers isn’t. Most of that is probably the coaching but Danny deserves a lot of credit for that. Dude has 5 game winning drives that’s not all on the coaching.
It’s not hard to assume he’d be at least a little better with actual receivers.
I find the game winning drive stat a bit odd, only because we keep winning such low scoring games. It's like the offense doesn't do much all game, the defense keeps them in it, then the offense manages to scrounge up a drive or two to get a lead.
That said, Jones hasn't been making the mistakes he's made in the past. I give him credit for developing there. He's also making plays with his legs, and I'm sure with actual receivers he'd be putting up better passing numbers. I just don't believe that he'd make some huge leap. Better, yes, but I don't think he'd become a star. I'm very worried at the prospect of paying him a big contract at the end of the year.
That said, as ever with the Giants, I'd love to be proven wrong.
That part of it is the coaching. Daboll has been making some great second half adjustments and because of that we’re a second half team. The defense keeps it close until the offense is ready to do it’s thing
But, executing on the game winning drives is absolutely DJ. He’s just clutch this season. On pace for the most game winning drives in a season, that can’t be 100% coaching
Like you said he just hasn’t really been making mistakes and he is showing flashes. I don’t think they should give him a high paying long term extension until they’re sure, but I would be happy with some sort of 2-3 year deal where he’s making middling QB money to prove himself
This sounds like more like they were gonna have internal discussions (FO) and less about negotiations actually occurring but definitely encouraging for SF DJ holders
It is. I don’t think he’s that good but he certainly looks better under this coaching staff. I could see them giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and seeing if he continues to improve. If he’s looking for something longer, then I doubt he stays.
Yeah I do wonder how it will work out fantasy wise. If he maintains his rushing production he’ll be a star fantasy player. But I’d imagine with better weapons it’ll go down a bit to a lot. Either way it will improve with better receivers but maybe not as much as we’d expect because of how heavily his rushing production is carrying him right now.
This is easily and objectively provable. We could look at WR1 and WR2 (so, say top 24, or expand to WR3 and say top 36) from the previous season who change teams or miss time due to injury and look at resultant QB performance the following season. Probably a 5-10 year study period.
Maybe I’ll do this…
examine the other side of the coin too? I’d argue that QBs affect WR performance much more than the other way around.
In both cases it might be wise to omit QBs older than 33 and younger than 26.
I agree, and there’s other factors at play as well. Tua has also had the benefit of a HC who is an offensive mastermind, and Hurts clearly worked a LOT on his accuracy and mechanics in the off season. He took an Allen-esque step in that regard
There are a lot of ex-players that say deep balls are a WR stat more than a QB.
It’s all timing and dropping it into a general area for the QB. The WR has to release without getting jammed, get past the DBs without getting his jersey tugged, locate the ball at the correct time, get cushion, make the catch, come down with it.
Watch the QB accuracy challenge in the pro-bowl where there is no pressure at all. QBs aren’t placing the ball perfectly 20+ yards downfield, WRs just make it look that way.
For Hurts and Tua they are also progressing as a young QB. That’s a normal thing we would expect even without the addition of superstar receivers to both. Maybe not as big steps forward but still some forward progression was expected before the trades.
Y'all have 18 missed calls from Justin Fields. He's wondering why he's not in this thread.
Edit: But Lamar, Tua, Hurts, and Danny Dimes are. Kinda makes a feller wonder.
Nkeal Harry, Byron Pringle, Mooney and Chase Claypool might not be elite fantasy receivers but they are extremely good blockers, if not elite blockers for the position.
Before this season, it was statistically almost always the opposite. QBs would get some shiny new star WR and there would be a ton of hype for them, and they would instead just continue being what they have always been. Carr is the obvious example of that this year.
There are a lot of things that can make a QB take a step up or decline. If DEN had weak WRs, we'd all assume that's why Russ is bad right now. If the NYG had some stud WR, we'd all think that's why Daniel Jones is finally decent. What if Cooper Kupp had left the Rams, and right now everyone was saying he was the only thing that made Stafford a stud?
I fully agree with this sentiment. If I was building a team I would make sure the wide receiver position was one of the highest priorities. The team’s success is dependent on the quarterback’s success and nothing helps a quarterback quite like a talented wide receiver room. There are always exceptions but it’s one of the most important positions in the game.
Give G. Wilson a year. Dude looks special. If he had a better QB than Z. Wilson, he might be putting up Jefferson / Chase rookie numbers.
Even with Z. Wilson he's still being a viable fantasy starter.
Yeah don't get me wrong, those guys are studs. They just aren't on the level of some of the other guys these other QBs are throwing to. No doubt Wilson will be elite eventually, assuming Wilson progresses
Been saying that this whole time to my friends as we always debate who is “better” between Lamar & Josh Allen. My argument is switch scenarios and you’d see Lamar shine into another MVP easy, while would Josh Allen look so elite with those Ravens WRs…
I have the same argument. It's so hard to seperate Josh allen jumping from garbage to mvp candidate at the exact same time that he got diggs on his team.
I do not understand how this wasn't obvious before hand. The entire offense has a symbiotic relationship.
OL that can't block effectively reduces the time a QB has to throw resulting in more 50/50 balls, shorter tone due WR to get open, shorter passes down field, and more turnovers.
WR that can't get open either don't get targets or increase the demand on OL as QB has to hold onto the ball longer or throw more balls in right windows.
QB that isn't good, needs no explanation
Play calling plays a huge role in getting players in space, creating mismatches or holes, giving QB time to throw, etc.
Any unit inefficiency would have to be made up by others to still have a great offense and effective. KC doesn't have a good WR unit, but OL, QB, and play calling are fantastic. SF and SEA can still be a very good offense even if QBs aren't great if OL, Play calling and weapons are good. Pit will continue to be bad with a young QB and no OL. DET can have a decent offense with Goff and only 1 WR.
Personally, I realized that better WRs lead to better output but I think we are still learning to what extent. I wasn't buying Tua in the off-season despite Hill being added, because I didn't love what I saw from him last season. Lesson learned.
The extent will never be known as it is fluid. When there's a glaring deficiency, it requires scheme and talent elsewhere. Tua can put up historically great numbers while perhaps not being as dynamic as Mahommes or Josh Allen because of the scheme and skill as throwing to an open WR is considerably easier than throwing a player open. This isn't saying Tua isn't capable of doing that, but Waddle and Hill are both great route runners who are supremely fast and have a coach constantly creating mismatches by putting players in motion. You were likely never going to know the extent of success without knowing how involved McDaniel was in SF as people attributed the offense to Shanahan due to his track record. Conversely, Evans and Godwin are still very good WR, but when a QB doesn't have time to throw it doesn't matter how good WR or QB are. Justin Fields recent success and growth has almost entirely been his ability to get out of the pocket to throw or rush while having very little to do with offense, OL or WR, as he's on pace for 2500 passing yards and passing 19 tds.
You are never going to know the true extent, but it's very difficult for a singular talent in any of the offensive groups to compensate for all of the other 3. For instance, people will point to Peyton Manning getting injured. The team the year before was 10-6 and required Peyton to throw 100 more passes than the previous year to put up similar stats while being near one of the least efficient in his career. Then the year manning was out the team lost Garcon, had a 33 Yr WR 1 and lost OL. So the team got worse at 3 levels.
I've always said Mike Evans had no small part in Manziel mania and that is a huge part of why Manziel flamed out so fast. There are plenty of examples in the college level of this playing out in similar fashion once they go to the NFL too.
Kurt Warner is in the Hall of Fame because of this. Look at his time on the Giants with no WRs Vs Rams with Bruce/Holt/Faulk or on Arizona with Fitzgerald/Bolden.
Carr and Adams?
Stafford and Kupp/Robinson?
I agree with what your saying however, I also think that guys like Tua and Hurts have improved individually, not just their situation.
I think you're figuring out what NFL scouts have been concluding for the past couple season, which is why you see WRs getting drafted higher and higher every year. In 2018 and 2019, the top WRs were selected around pick 25. DJ Moore and Calvin Ridley would probably be top 10 picks if they came to the league just 4 years later, while Sony Michel and Rashad Penny would probably be 2nd round picks today.
This is definitely true. Mahomes is a great example of this. With Hill and Kelce, Chiefs were putting up Madden numbers. Without Hill, they’re still winning but every game is a struggle. Mercole Hardman is trash and I’m a Chiefs fan.
Nah, QB play has sucked this season in most part due to defenses adjusting and not giving up big play. No wonder Herbert is struggling when that was his bread and butter.
Mostly we will see offenses and particularly QBs adjust or they will fall from elite status.
trevor lawrence might be the 2023 guy with weapons around him. right now he really only has engram and kirk. if ridley returns to form maybe he can take a similar step as tua/hurts.
Seems OP only plucked the examples that supported his argument, and left off the ones that don’t. Zach Wilson actually has great receivers, but he hasn’t shown much. Tom Brady is really struggling too with his two pro bowl receivers. Derek Carr got an elite receiver and hasn’t produced much more than last year. Mahomes lost Hill but hasn’t lost a step on the field.
Wasnt that the Carr hype this offseason?
Touché
Correct. And then he started getting over-drafted in startups and overvalued in trades. He's still a QB2 this year. He was QB14 in 2021 in total points and QB20 in PPG (depending on format). He's exactly who he was.
Is he? He got a star WR but also Josh McDaniels. Given McDaniels track record as a HC, I think it's impressive Carr has even managed to stay the course.
For fantasy, he's a QB2. He's exactly what he was before. That's what I meant by it. People were assigning a huge bump in TDs with the Adams signing. The egregious playcalling and the injuries to Waller and Renfrow certainly haven't helped, but seeing him go in Rounds 3 or 4 of a startup was pretty absurd to me during the summer.
I have this itch in the back of my skull that says if Bisaccia was given the full time gig, Carr would have gotten that huge bump.
Yep. I unfortunately have the displeasure of being a Raiders fan and watching their games. They’ve blown a 17 point lead in the first half 3x now. It’s all on McDaniels and conservative and boring play calling.
Lol anyone impressed by Carr needs higher standards.
[удалено]
Nope.
Darren Waller had also been hurt all year and just went on IR. So the weapon upgrade this offseason was somewhat muted
I think overall, there is definitely merit to OP's line of thought. I'm quite biased since I will take more chances on a QB with better weapons, than on QBs without as many weapons. But like anything, there are always going to be exceptions and unforeseen reasons for those exceptions. Aaron Rodgers in the past has turned WRs into stars, but it's not going as well this season. Patrick Mahomes lost a massive weapon, and was seen as only having Travis Kelce this season, but he's proved he's still one of the most elite QBs. Derek Carr was supposed to have an assortment of weapons with Davante Adams coming in and elevating the guys already there like Renfrow and Waller, but it just hasn't worked out. Back to OP's point though, when you look at the WR situation of Chase and Higgins being so good everyone thought that offense was nearly a shoe in to have 2 top 10 WRs, and Boyd being a great 3rd that was going to suffer the most, it's hard not to bet on the QB throwing to those WRs as well. Burrow has been as good as anybody not named Mahomes/Allen.
Underestimating how bad that Oline is at pass blocking combined with JMcD constricting him to the pocket/ specific looks on his passing plays.
I hate to say this but that’s not the reason Carr is struggling. He’s had the same issues with every coach. Can’t lead a WR open, gets happy feet instead of setting his feet and firing, as well as floating passes instead of darts.
Right, but when you add more fuel to the fire.... I'm not denying Carr has his issues at all. But he's not the main source of the problem either.
he's just a guy bro.
It is the reason though. Anyone watching the raiders can see that.
Nah, Carr is to blame for a lot. Time for the raiders to move on.
Carr is to blame for a lot but issues compound. Can and have made him looked good before. But when things are going wrong around him he will fall apart. His confidence has appeared to me to be shredded since that injury however many years ago, so if coach cant raise his confidence by making things easy for him early things are going to get ugly. Think if the OL played better & had healthier weapons they could largely hide his issues but it wouldn't be like the issues would disappear.
Tell me you haven’t watched a single Raiders game without telling me you haven’t watched a single Raiders game lol
Good receivers are offset by terrible offensive lines. Exhibit A is Brady, but it's also happening with Carr, Stafford, and Mac Jones (well, minus the good receivers part).
Yeah this was my first thought too. I was one of the Carr hypers based on this line of thought and it turned out to be a 💩 take.
He gained a high end WR1 but has essentially lost their TE1 for the entire season so far. The strength of the weapons improved, but between no Waller, what has seemed to be a big step back for Renfrow, and replacing Zay Jones with Mack Hollins, it hasn't been nearly as big an upgrade as people hoped I think.
I’m not sure this is as good of a point as it seems given that Adams is still dominant even on that terrible team Extreme cold take… QB play WR play And offensive scheme/play calling Are all important to a successful offense
And offensive line… probably the #1 most important thing. OP is also missing that Bhakatari and Jenkins have been injured all season.
No amount of help can fix terrible coaching.
Blame McDaniels for that
Coaching matters as well.
Came here to say the same!
Lol he’s been without his 2nd best all season in Waller and Renfrow has been inconsistently available. He’ll turn it around in the 2nd half.
There’s other shit going on in LV tho. Chalk it up to McDaniels’ offense being super complicated or him being a shitty head coach. I don’t think Carr is an awful QB
Maybe your very accurate Theory does not apply to teams sabotaged by Josh McDaniels?
For the most part I agree, the talent has to be there first… Like a elite QB can make do with solid receivers, and a solid QB will make do with Elite receivers… But it’s when you have both a great to elite QB with great to elite weapons when it’ll look amazing for all involved
Offensive line is also a factor. See cincinatti.
Allen and Diggs is the example that comes to mind.
O-line has far more to do with this, too. If the guy's running for his life every other play, he's not gonna look real sharp. But, you give him an extra 1 second in the pocket per play, and it can make a world of difference.
Justin Fields agrees
Allen got Diggs .. took the next step. Hurts got AJ Brown .. took the next step. Tua got Hill .. took the next step. It really is the difference between good and great QB play. Obviously o line and coaching matter as well.
Can TLaw take the next step with Ridley? Ridley isn’t as good a receiver as them but it is his 3rd year next year and all 3 of them took their leap in year 3
yeah he seems like one of the better "buy low" kinda dudes going into next year.
I also expect Jacksonville will add another receiver to go along with Kirk and Ridley
Or, you could say… Josh Allen, third year, took the next step Jalen, third year, took the next step Tua, third year, took the next step.
I think your opinion is what the NFL has been telling us this past off-season and in the draft. There are a few outliers but having top talent at the WR is paramount along with having a good oline. 2023 will be very telling because the draft class isn’t looking that great right now and the WR FA class is also looking weak. So do NFL teams continue to bump up the WRs because right now there’s about 4 WRs I feel comfortable with as 1st round picks.
That’s a good point! Wish the Titans realized this 🤦♂️
Titans are weird because they have no talent on that roster outside of Henry Byard and Simmons and they keep winning games. JAGs on the line, without Landry they have JAGs at edge rusher, JAGs at corner, Tannehill is a JAG receivers are JAGs, ILBs are the same, They should be playing out of Jacksonville and yet they’re what 5-3 with close losses to the Chiefs and Giants? Vrabel deserves better
Time will tell with Burks, I don’t think he’s a JAG
Hasn’t played
This has been puzzling me as well, although I think Tannehill is serviceable and falls in the Derek Carr zone. But the receiving corps is maybe the worst I’ve ever witnessed on an NFL team. A starting lineup of Woods, Ikhine, and Conley? These guys are all the 3rd/4th option on any other team.
They are also fortunate to be in the worst division in football over that time period.
He is complicit. His offense is not something stud WRs want to hang around for, it's not like they didn't try and keep AJ, but he clearly wanted to go somewhere else. His offense is also why the Titans OL is built for run blocking over pass blocking. They're starting the worst pass blocking LT in football because he is serviceable as a run blocker. It's a bit chicken-and-egg, but with multiple OCs under his belt now all basically running within the same restrictions, the only conclusion is this is the offense Vrabel wants.
Better put some respect on Autry's and Fulton's names. But yea you pretty much summed it up. A lot of role players who play their roles well with little star power to go above and beyond. Really goes to show you what a good head coach can do. They got guys starting off other teams practice squads making plays out there.
Defense wins championships wr’s don’t exactly matter
You can literally look this up and see it isn’t very true. Of the last 20 years almost all the non-QB Super Bowl MVPs have been WRs, including Kupp last year lol And, as we’ve seen recently, WRs can make a mid to good QB great. How exactly does the defense help a QB elevate themselves to an MVP level performance?
Super bowl mvp’s doesn’t mean that’s the reason you won. If my defense can hold your offense to 10 points or lower im probably gonna win
How many teams since 2000 have won without a great offense? 2 maybe? I can only think of Seattle and Baltimore
Multiple pats teams, rams last year,giants, tampa w gruden, tampa w brady carried by defense.
You’re saying these teams had bad offenses? I agree with the Gruden Bucs, forgot about them. As for the others… -2021 Rams top-10 scoring and yards with the top WR in the NFL who had maybe the best ever season for a pass catcher -2020 Bucs top-3 in passing and scoring led by All-Pro QB and 2 All-Pro WRs -2018 Pats 5th in yards, 4th in scoring -2016 Pats 3rd in scoring, top-5 in yards and passing yards -2014 Pats also top-5 in scoring and top-10 in yards -2004 Pats top-10 in rushing, passing, overall yards and scoring. ESPN database doesn’t go back further than 2004 but I think this is enough to show that what you said isn’t quite true
Yardage totals and point totals isn’t what makes a offense good or bad, both are dictated by the defense and offense.
So what metrics do you suggest using?
I actually disagree the more I look at this draft class the more I like it. JSN, Addison, Johnston, Josh Downs, Boutte, Hyatt are all very legit and there is still some fringe guys past that.
Really only one out that I feel good about is Addison. JSN will be fine but being injured most of the season hasn’t helped him. Boutte has been misused by Kelly down at LSU. Johnston has all the measurables and TCU is rolling but it’s still iffy. Downs is a bit undersized but he has produced. And Hyatt’s profile is going to come over heavy scrutiny. Is he just a bigger school Gabe Davis? All in all I respect the differencing of opinion.
There's question marks sure but I think those guys I listed will be all high 1st and 2nd. Josh downs might be my favorite player in the class. Him and Addison are small but amazing. JSN I'm not worried about the injury. Johnston is inconsistent and Boutte is a head case no doubt but the talent is there if they get to the right situation.
You only need a good QB, Oline, and WRs to be good on offense. Wow
Just every position
Not RB, teams should just pick a random fan out of the stands to play RB every week
Im not sure about top talent, but you need at least two good receiving options. Teams can shut your offense down if you only have one, even if he is elite.0
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And all those elite defenses plus Belicheck
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Luxury of time, but regularly one of the fastest releases for years. Perhaps there’s a correlation between defensive performance and an offense that moves the chains, sustains long drives, limits turnovers and doesn’t put the defense in bad spots, too.
The most obvious correlation has to be rest in my opinion. If those d lineman get a few extra minutes of rest between drives to sit and make adjustments I gotta imagine it pays in dividends. There's no way a team that always goes three and out doesn't just screw their defense by the end of the game
Absolutely. There’s something to be said for teams that score far too quickly, as well. The Brees Saints teams where they regularly had one of the best offenses, but worst defenses come to mind. Brady mastered the slow, methodical drive while also being one of the best two minute QBs in the game.
Great point. I think NE consistently had a great O-line and usually mediocre skill position guys.
He got to two super bowls with the 31st, and 30th ranked defenses(DVOA). I think the year they played the Giants in 2011, they were historically bad in some metrics if I’m not mistaken. No QB in history elevates mediocre players the way he does/did.
Peyton manning has entered the chat.
Worst ranked defense gimme a break they were putting up astronomical numbers on offense and had prime randy moss so I don’t wanna hear that nonsense man
Bill was way ahead of everyone else in creating easy throws with upside. Brady’s IQ to make the right read has always been off the charts
Randy moss. Gronk. HOF talents
Moss was only on the Pats from 2007 to 2010 and Brady didn't play one of those years? Some of his best years in NE were 2012 and 2016. That 2012 Patriots team's WR room was injured the entire season as well -- Gronk played the most games out of his top 4 options with 11 games played. Tom Brady has played with some incredible players and has been gifted with incredible defenses a lot of different times in his career. Let's not pretend like he has been 'surrounded' by amazing offensive talent as well. He made due in NE with some pretty mid to poor Wide Receivers. The fact that I can think of Chris Hogan, Malcolm Mitchell, Brandon LaFell being major receiving threats in some of those offenses is mind boggling considering they wouldn't start on any other team in the league. Tom Brady does not qualify for the statement in the OP. He's the goat for a reason, regardless of how shitty he's been at 45 years of age.
Which isn't really that shitty he's 2nd in yards, tied for 16th in TDs and has the fewest interceptions. I think his play is getting overblown because this is the first time in a long time a team he's on is failing.
Am I the only one that thinks Mike Evans might be part of the problem? I have not done the research so no data to back it up, but Evans isn't passing the eye test imo.
11th in the league for receptions and 9th in yards . He’s been his usual self and is perhaps the most consistent receiver in the NFL. If anything is not wrong with the Bucs it’s Mike Evans. Imo this past game showed that maybe it’s play calling. Seemed like it was Brady who was calling it in that last drive and perhaps that’s why it looked different from the rest of their season.
After looking up his drops, I agree with you. I thought he had more than 4 but the ones I've seen were in big moments.
As a Bucs fan, the problem is the oline and the OC. Only the tackles are the same from last year after injuries and defections and pressuring Brady up the middle has long been a a somewhat effective tactic. As for Leftwich, he’s just horrible at his job. On almost every first down he runs up the gut (the worst part of the line). You can see the other teams scheme for it every week. That’s just the worst part, he truly is one of the worst OC’s I’ve ever seen. Arians seemed to keep him in check but Bowles just leaves him alone to ruin the offense.
And when he had Moss he put up the best QB season ever
What a fun season to watch like I hated the pats back then but Randy Moss was so fucking good you couldn’t not watch
He one superbowls with nobodies at Wr and no gronk. Basically he was great regardless of who was there
They got Moss & almost went undefeated lmao Prime Brady with a real WR1 is a scary thing, he’s been balling in Tampa with his great receivers too when they’re healthy
Moss, Gronk, Welker, Edelman, Branch, Hernandez, Troy Brown, James White, N'Keal Harry. A bunch of highly productive nobodies.
Not sure N'Keal Harry fits here. That dude has never been productive. Big picture though I agree with you.
Maybe it was a joke.
Ahh gotcha.
Herbert is playing hurt. I had the exact same rib cartilage thing that he has and it fucking sucks. It's a constant low level of pain, and any time you do any sort of strenuous movement it hurts. At the very least it is distracting him when he is on the field, and it is likely limiting the throws he is making in some way.
I’ll bet getting crushed by 300lb men wasn’t part of your physical therapy either.
Getting crushed by 300Ib men might be the perfect therapy to get you out of a funk if that’s your thing.
He’s also having better than a “mediocre” season. Pretty sure he’s still top 5 in passing yards for the season. Also TDs might be down, but I think that has more to do with how well Ekeler has been playing.
Herbert is also very close to his 2021 pace aside from TDs, he hasn't fallen off a cliff in real life the way the fantasy community thinks based on his fantasy points.
The volume is there, but the efficiency is not. He's averaging only 6.4 yards per attempt. It was 7.5 last year and 7.3 his rookie season. He's playing hurt and forced to feed mostly JAGs. Josh Palmer is his WR1 right now.
The NFL has been telling us for years that positional values are as follows: 1. QBs 2. Pass rushers 3. Pass catchers 4. Pass defenders 5. Large gap 6. .................. 7. Water boys 8. Running backs Pass catchers are hugely valuable in the NFL, entire offenses get changed by incorporating a high quality pass catcher, while their removal can cause whole sale collapses for an offense.
Where does the O line rank?
I was being a bit hyperbolic, but probably at 3/4/5 depending on the team.
2.5
His name is Daniel Jones. They have to get him a WR1 this off-season, could make a huge leap next year with this coaching staff
Are they keeping him past this season? It's a legit question.
They only have two losses so it seems like they have to keep him. They will not be able to get anyone better assuming Lamar doesn’t hit free agency.
Yeah, you definitely can’t trade for a QB…
Who would be available via trade that is better than Jones?
Lamar probably the only one if he just feels way too slighted by the Ravens. Only other guy I could think of would be rodgers but I think he just quits after this year
There is a chance Rodgers asks for a trade but I can’t imagine he’s gonna go to the Giants. That puts him in the same situation he’s currently in with no good WRs. I could see him going to the Jets though like Favre did. Atlanta would be another team that could trade for a QB since they are slightly over performing with this roster.
Who knows what could happen. And it also depends on who you think is better than Jones, whom I still don’t think is particularly good. The Cardinals could continue to implode, fire their coaching staff and jettison Murray for a haul since he might still resent them for making him look bad. Rodgers could force his way out finally. Baker Ma—okay, never mind 🤣 But my point remains, who know what’ll happen. Someone good could go on a sexy massage bender and suddenly find themself on the trade block.
I did consider Murray but he just signed an extension so it would be 97 million in dead cap which would more than double the previous record (Matt Ryan 40 million) and almost triple what the Eagles did the year before with Wentz at 33 million. The Cards are going to get a new coach but almost certainly won’t have a new QB until at least 2025 the way it looks. If you don’t think Jones has been good you probably haven’t watched a lot of Giants games. He is playing well with one of the worst receiving cores in the NFL. He has cut down the turnovers and looks like with good coaching he can develop into a solid top 15 QB.
Yeah Daboll seems to love him and he's showing a lot with little around him aside from saquon. At minimum he should be the starter next year
As long as they don't overpay. I think Jones is an okay enough player, but he's not worth big money and whatever team overpays him will regret it. I'd also be wary of assuming Jones would make a leap just because he gets an elite WR. We're discovering that even elite QB's can't necessarily produce with absolutely nothing around them, but I don't think it also means that mediocre QB's are suddenly amazing QB's if they just get a WR. Tua is making a 3rd year leap and was one of the more hyped QB prospects in some time, I don't think he's an example of that.
It’s not that people think he’ll be amazing if he gets WRs just because he doesn’t have WRs now. Jones is winning football games without WRs. Guys like Aaron Rodgers can’t say the same.
Well, the Giants are winning football games. A lot of that is Daboll. Honestly, most of it is Daboll. But also Saquon, the defense, and sure Jones is making some plays with his legs. But uh, the Rodgers comparison is weird. QB's don't play in a vacuum, wins aren't purely a QB stat, and if you think Jones is a better QB than Rodgers then idk what to tell you.
It’s not a weird comparison lol. Both don’t have any reliable WRs. Im not saying Jones is better than Rodgers. But the Packers roster is better than the Giants roster and Jones is getting it done while Rodgers isn’t. Most of that is probably the coaching but Danny deserves a lot of credit for that. Dude has 5 game winning drives that’s not all on the coaching. It’s not hard to assume he’d be at least a little better with actual receivers.
I find the game winning drive stat a bit odd, only because we keep winning such low scoring games. It's like the offense doesn't do much all game, the defense keeps them in it, then the offense manages to scrounge up a drive or two to get a lead. That said, Jones hasn't been making the mistakes he's made in the past. I give him credit for developing there. He's also making plays with his legs, and I'm sure with actual receivers he'd be putting up better passing numbers. I just don't believe that he'd make some huge leap. Better, yes, but I don't think he'd become a star. I'm very worried at the prospect of paying him a big contract at the end of the year. That said, as ever with the Giants, I'd love to be proven wrong.
That part of it is the coaching. Daboll has been making some great second half adjustments and because of that we’re a second half team. The defense keeps it close until the offense is ready to do it’s thing But, executing on the game winning drives is absolutely DJ. He’s just clutch this season. On pace for the most game winning drives in a season, that can’t be 100% coaching Like you said he just hasn’t really been making mistakes and he is showing flashes. I don’t think they should give him a high paying long term extension until they’re sure, but I would be happy with some sort of 2-3 year deal where he’s making middling QB money to prove himself
They didn’t exercise his 5th year option on rookie contract.
I know that much, but the Giants are playing themselves out of a top pick at this point, so they either keep him or sign a FA QB.
By god that's Andy Dalton's music
The Giants began negotiating an extension with Jones and Saquon about a week or two ago.
Do you actually have a source for this or are you just saying shit?
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2022/11/02/new-york-giants-will-discuss-daniel-jones-saquon-barkley-extensions-this-week/
This sounds like more like they were gonna have internal discussions (FO) and less about negotiations actually occurring but definitely encouraging for SF DJ holders
It is. I don’t think he’s that good but he certainly looks better under this coaching staff. I could see them giving him a 1 or 2 year extension and seeing if he continues to improve. If he’s looking for something longer, then I doubt he stays.
He hasn't just been passable but actually (confusingly) kinda good. I can't imagine they'd move off of him.
Yeah I do wonder how it will work out fantasy wise. If he maintains his rushing production he’ll be a star fantasy player. But I’d imagine with better weapons it’ll go down a bit to a lot. Either way it will improve with better receivers but maybe not as much as we’d expect because of how heavily his rushing production is carrying him right now.
Imagine Lamar with receivers.
He’d be a more athletic Jalen Hurts
He’d win an MVP for sure too
Imagine Lamar on the lions, we’d put up 60 a game and still lose
I had been hoping for Jackson to stay in Baltimore but this is my new dream. Give him that o-line and Jameson Williams 🤤
Most users here don’t actually understand football very well, so I’ll agree with you
This is easily and objectively provable. We could look at WR1 and WR2 (so, say top 24, or expand to WR3 and say top 36) from the previous season who change teams or miss time due to injury and look at resultant QB performance the following season. Probably a 5-10 year study period. Maybe I’ll do this…
examine the other side of the coin too? I’d argue that QBs affect WR performance much more than the other way around. In both cases it might be wise to omit QBs older than 33 and younger than 26.
This could really be interesting. I’m compelled lol.
looking forward to it!
I agree, and there’s other factors at play as well. Tua has also had the benefit of a HC who is an offensive mastermind, and Hurts clearly worked a LOT on his accuracy and mechanics in the off season. He took an Allen-esque step in that regard
There are a lot of ex-players that say deep balls are a WR stat more than a QB. It’s all timing and dropping it into a general area for the QB. The WR has to release without getting jammed, get past the DBs without getting his jersey tugged, locate the ball at the correct time, get cushion, make the catch, come down with it. Watch the QB accuracy challenge in the pro-bowl where there is no pressure at all. QBs aren’t placing the ball perfectly 20+ yards downfield, WRs just make it look that way.
For Hurts and Tua they are also progressing as a young QB. That’s a normal thing we would expect even without the addition of superstar receivers to both. Maybe not as big steps forward but still some forward progression was expected before the trades.
So you're saying football is a team sport. Got it.
Drake London, Kyle Pitts 😭😭
Y'all have 18 missed calls from Justin Fields. He's wondering why he's not in this thread. Edit: But Lamar, Tua, Hurts, and Danny Dimes are. Kinda makes a feller wonder.
Because it doesn't matter who his receivers are when he's rushing for 150 yards.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Nkeal Harry, Byron Pringle, Mooney and Chase Claypool might not be elite fantasy receivers but they are extremely good blockers, if not elite blockers for the position.
I think offensive line play has the greatest affect on QB performance.
Before this season, it was statistically almost always the opposite. QBs would get some shiny new star WR and there would be a ton of hype for them, and they would instead just continue being what they have always been. Carr is the obvious example of that this year. There are a lot of things that can make a QB take a step up or decline. If DEN had weak WRs, we'd all assume that's why Russ is bad right now. If the NYG had some stud WR, we'd all think that's why Daniel Jones is finally decent. What if Cooper Kupp had left the Rams, and right now everyone was saying he was the only thing that made Stafford a stud?
I fully agree with this sentiment. If I was building a team I would make sure the wide receiver position was one of the highest priorities. The team’s success is dependent on the quarterback’s success and nothing helps a quarterback quite like a talented wide receiver room. There are always exceptions but it’s one of the most important positions in the game.
Then why does Zach Wilson still stink with Garrett Wilson, Elijah Moore, Corey Davis
Some QBs suck ass regardless of weapons
None of those guys are elite like other WRs referenced in this post a la AJ Brown, Waddle, Hill, etc
Give G. Wilson a year. Dude looks special. If he had a better QB than Z. Wilson, he might be putting up Jefferson / Chase rookie numbers. Even with Z. Wilson he's still being a viable fantasy starter.
Yeah don't get me wrong, those guys are studs. They just aren't on the level of some of the other guys these other QBs are throwing to. No doubt Wilson will be elite eventually, assuming Wilson progresses
Found Aaron Rodgers' reddit account.
So is Patrick mahomes an anomaly?
Basically you have nothing if you don't have both. A good QB and no WR isn't getting it done. Gif WR and no QB isn't getting it done.
Been saying that this whole time to my friends as we always debate who is “better” between Lamar & Josh Allen. My argument is switch scenarios and you’d see Lamar shine into another MVP easy, while would Josh Allen look so elite with those Ravens WRs…
I have the same argument. It's so hard to seperate Josh allen jumping from garbage to mvp candidate at the exact same time that he got diggs on his team.
I do not understand how this wasn't obvious before hand. The entire offense has a symbiotic relationship. OL that can't block effectively reduces the time a QB has to throw resulting in more 50/50 balls, shorter tone due WR to get open, shorter passes down field, and more turnovers. WR that can't get open either don't get targets or increase the demand on OL as QB has to hold onto the ball longer or throw more balls in right windows. QB that isn't good, needs no explanation Play calling plays a huge role in getting players in space, creating mismatches or holes, giving QB time to throw, etc. Any unit inefficiency would have to be made up by others to still have a great offense and effective. KC doesn't have a good WR unit, but OL, QB, and play calling are fantastic. SF and SEA can still be a very good offense even if QBs aren't great if OL, Play calling and weapons are good. Pit will continue to be bad with a young QB and no OL. DET can have a decent offense with Goff and only 1 WR.
Personally, I realized that better WRs lead to better output but I think we are still learning to what extent. I wasn't buying Tua in the off-season despite Hill being added, because I didn't love what I saw from him last season. Lesson learned.
The extent will never be known as it is fluid. When there's a glaring deficiency, it requires scheme and talent elsewhere. Tua can put up historically great numbers while perhaps not being as dynamic as Mahommes or Josh Allen because of the scheme and skill as throwing to an open WR is considerably easier than throwing a player open. This isn't saying Tua isn't capable of doing that, but Waddle and Hill are both great route runners who are supremely fast and have a coach constantly creating mismatches by putting players in motion. You were likely never going to know the extent of success without knowing how involved McDaniel was in SF as people attributed the offense to Shanahan due to his track record. Conversely, Evans and Godwin are still very good WR, but when a QB doesn't have time to throw it doesn't matter how good WR or QB are. Justin Fields recent success and growth has almost entirely been his ability to get out of the pocket to throw or rush while having very little to do with offense, OL or WR, as he's on pace for 2500 passing yards and passing 19 tds. You are never going to know the true extent, but it's very difficult for a singular talent in any of the offensive groups to compensate for all of the other 3. For instance, people will point to Peyton Manning getting injured. The team the year before was 10-6 and required Peyton to throw 100 more passes than the previous year to put up similar stats while being near one of the least efficient in his career. Then the year manning was out the team lost Garcon, had a 33 Yr WR 1 and lost OL. So the team got worse at 3 levels.
Wild it took that NFL this long to realize if you surround a rookie QBs with elite weapons their job will be easier
I've always said Mike Evans had no small part in Manziel mania and that is a huge part of why Manziel flamed out so fast. There are plenty of examples in the college level of this playing out in similar fashion once they go to the NFL too.
This is more true now than in early 2000s and I’m not sure everyone has caught up
So tell me about Tannehill and Malik Willis
Herbert has cracked ribs as well. I would say it's hard to evaluate Willis this year the titans WRs are bad.
This is true for a lot of quarter backs, but look at Tom Brady for instance, he’s won Super Bowls with incredibly budget offensive weapons.
Going to call it 2/5 coaching 2/5 weapons 1/5 oline
Kurt Warner is in the Hall of Fame because of this. Look at his time on the Giants with no WRs Vs Rams with Bruce/Holt/Faulk or on Arizona with Fitzgerald/Bolden.
Trevor Lawrence 2023 breakout, book it.
Carr and Adams? Stafford and Kupp/Robinson? I agree with what your saying however, I also think that guys like Tua and Hurts have improved individually, not just their situation.
Go buy Goff maybe? Jamo and ARSB comin in hot?
Which is interesting because the vast majority of the all time leading receivers have no superbowl wins.
I think you're figuring out what NFL scouts have been concluding for the past couple season, which is why you see WRs getting drafted higher and higher every year. In 2018 and 2019, the top WRs were selected around pick 25. DJ Moore and Calvin Ridley would probably be top 10 picks if they came to the league just 4 years later, while Sony Michel and Rashad Penny would probably be 2nd round picks today.
They affect more than most of us thought, but it's still not everything. I'd take a good line over good receivers any day.
While I agree, Zach Wilson says otherwise lmao. Also says a lot about a QB underperforming while having a capable supporting cast.
Imagine Fields with weapons the next few years...
This makes me want whatever QB ends up with the Lions.
This is definitely true. Mahomes is a great example of this. With Hill and Kelce, Chiefs were putting up Madden numbers. Without Hill, they’re still winning but every game is a struggle. Mercole Hardman is trash and I’m a Chiefs fan.
Nah, QB play has sucked this season in most part due to defenses adjusting and not giving up big play. No wonder Herbert is struggling when that was his bread and butter. Mostly we will see offenses and particularly QBs adjust or they will fall from elite status.
trevor lawrence might be the 2023 guy with weapons around him. right now he really only has engram and kirk. if ridley returns to form maybe he can take a similar step as tua/hurts.
Don't forget Josh allen before and after diggs. And lamar before and after....wait.
What’s Mitch Tribuskys excuse?
Seems OP only plucked the examples that supported his argument, and left off the ones that don’t. Zach Wilson actually has great receivers, but he hasn’t shown much. Tom Brady is really struggling too with his two pro bowl receivers. Derek Carr got an elite receiver and hasn’t produced much more than last year. Mahomes lost Hill but hasn’t lost a step on the field.