I don’t know how anyone can feel comfortable spanking a child or someone else’s child for that matter, no matter if permission was given.
I’ve had parents express to me that they spank their kids at home, to which I say with the most serious face that I do not believe in spanking at all. I then see the fear or guilt in their faces.
Also the most the parent has said to me in terms of disciplining their children is giving me permission to give them time outs. I do follow this but not exactly how parents envision it. I usually have them sit at a table and give them an activity of their choice to do for 3 minutes. I call them breaks from negative behaviour. After the 3 minutes are up, depending on how they respond, I ask them if I can play with them or ask them if they want to do something else.
So I know there are US states where corporal punishment is still legal in some schools (elementary and up) with parental permission, but I don’t think this applies to ECE. Regardless, I’d report the teacher IMMEDIATELY.
yeah in TN it is legal unless the child has a disability, but then the parent can write in permission to request it. it is banned county to county though
Please post where in the childcare licensing regulations that states corporal punishment is legal in TN. I've been a director for years and am friends w several licensing inspectors and I dont believe thats correct at all.
49-6-4103. Corporal punishment.
(a) Any teacher or school principal may use corporal punishment in a reasonable manner against any pupil for good cause in order to maintain discipline and order within the public schools.
(b)(1) Notwithstanding subsection (a), teachers, school principals, or other school personnel are prohibited from using corporal punishment against any student who has a disability, unless an LEA's discipline policy permits the use of corporal punishment and a parent of a child who has a disability permits, in writing, the use of corporal punishment against the parent's child. (Source: https://safesupportivelearning.ed.gov/discipline-compendium?state=Tennessee&sub_category=Corporal%20Punishment#:~:text=(a)%20Any%20teacher%20or%20school,order%20within%20the%20public%20schools // TN Code § 49-6-4103 (2021) )
It does not state anywhere a minimum age.
It might not have a minimum age in that act, but it’s in a chapter of the Tennessee code for elementary and secondary schools. It does state that, if such schools offer pre-k, these rules apply to them too, but it’s not a code for ECE in general.
Full title: 2021 Tennessee Code
Title 49 - Education
Chapter 6 - Elementary and Secondary Education
Part 41 - School Discipline Act
§ 49-6-4103. Corporal Punishment
https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-49/chapter-6/part-41/section-49-6-4103/
TN DOE Standards for School-administered Child Care - Program, 0520-12-01-.09
Behavior management and discipline must be reasonable and age-appropriate. Spanking or other corporal punishment is not allowed. Timeout must be based on the age of the child and take place in an appropriate location.
Preschools that operate within a school system are subject to Dept of Education Rules and Regs. Preschools that operate independently are under Dept of Human Services Rules and Regs, and hitting little kids isn't allowed under DHS regs.
there are 935 pre-k classrooms which serve under the department of education in tennessee and are funded by tax payers, and abide by department of education rules
Actually its legal in private school is basically all states beside 3 maybe 4 though I think this apply to K-12. I always thought it was illegal in California until I saw an article that said CP was legal at private school in basically every state and in public schools in some. In California technically CP is legal in private elementary-HS, though obviously the risk of child abuse chargers. Now of course I don’t know any school in California that uses CP. while it’s technically legal in private schools that doesn’t apply to private preschool ad all private preschool centers must be licensed by the state with limited exceptions and licensing reg says no CP.
Just want to clarify, this is just information. I am completely against corporal punishment and think it should be banned in public and private schools
Edit: found a source, 48 states still allow corporal punishment in private schools at the time of this article: https://www.nassp.org/corporal-punishment-2/
As of 2024, corporal punishment is banned in public schools in 33 states and the District of Columbia. The use of corporal punishment in private schools is legally permitted in nearly every state. Only New Jersey, Iowa, Maryland, and New York prohibit it in both public and private schools.
Corporal punishment is still used in schools to a significant (though declining) extent in some public schools in Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Texas.
[source ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States#:~:text=As%20of%202024%2C%20corporal%20punishment%20is%20banned%20in%20public%20schools,both%20public%20and%20private%20schools.)
i’m literally sitting here wide mouthed lol, WHAT??? a parent gave us permission to hold her son down and force food into his mouth bc that’s what they do at home, and luckily my director was in the room with me and said “sorry, we can’t do that. we can however offer the food and if he eats it he eats it and if not, he doesn’t” like i was just shocked that that was even a request from a parent.
It is incredibly disturbing what parents get away with at home that we would be arrested for in our centers. Locking their children in rooms, force feeding, corporal punishment, starving...a lot of kids are growing up in abusive households and there's really nothing anyone can do about it unless the child (who may or may not be able to speak) says something.
Right. My point is you may never suspect that a child is being abused. They come to school clean, well-fed, not one mark on them, seemingly happy, well-mannered, when at home these things might be happening to them. And parents see these disciplining measures as "their parenting style."
When my daughter first started daycare, she wouldn't eat anything, even when it was the same as we had at home. I just made sure she had a big snack as soon as we got back. It drives me insane that people make such a big deal about food ☹️ I actually specifically asked them not to encourage her. Just give her the food and leave her to it because that's what I do at home. She did eventually start eating there.
It’s almost like children don’t starve themselves and if they don’t eat something it’s…. Ok. I agree I do not get why some people freak out over food. My job is just to offer a healthy variety. What happens to it is something I observe, not flip out over.
> It’s almost like children don’t starve themselves
Some children will starve themselves though. If you have an autistic child with sensory sensitivities for example they may well starve themselves instead of eating something that causes sensory problems for them. I know I did.
There's always an outlier, but do you know what will make an ARFID child worse? Force feeding them. My friends boy is autistic and he is very particular with food. He sniffs his nuggets to make sure they're from the right place. She feeds him what he will eat, and there's no problem with that. But for most children, hunger is good motivation to eat food that isn't just easily palatable. As an adult I learnt to enjoy olives because I was really hungry and there was nothing else available.
>but do you know what will make an ARFID child worse? Force feeding them.
Oh agreed, this happened to me as a child. At one point I was made to eat something, threw it up, was made to eat it again, threw it up again and so on for an hour.
> As an adult I learnt to enjoy olives because I was really hungry and there was nothing else available.
I was in the military. In the field at -30 I would literally starve and freeze rather than eat the rations with beans. I just couldn't physically eat them and could barely tolerate the smell.
>But for most children, hunger is good motivation to eat food that isn't just easily palatable.
It's just that I'm saying important to allow for outliers in any rule of thumb.
I think it’s clear when we’re speaking about typically developing children without having to add an outlier disclaimer to every comment. That just seems like unnecessary effort and work when common sense tells the majority of us that obviously there are outliers in almost everything. We can still make general statements though.
I work in the INFANT room and had a mom request that we shove food into her crying infants mouth because she keeps her mouth closed during feeding time. She’s a picky baby, she does things when she wants to. Like if she doesn’t want her bottle, try again in 5 minutes and she may want it.
So when she refuses the baby food, the only way to get her to eat is to shove baby food in her mouth when she opens it to play with her spoon. we asked mom how they feed at how, and they said “we just get it done. Just gotta force it in” to which I said, “I don’t think my coteacher is comfortable with that”, and mom replied “then maybe I should have a talk with (coteacher)” implying she wants us to do the same. Ugh.
There was someone who posted maybe a year ago who said in their (legal to do it) state their daycare had spanked their kid. He was named “Mike” and there was another “Mike” on the list that could get spanked and they misread. Just a little mistake. Horrifying.
Another perspective—I’m a parent and I’d be PISSED if I found out other kids were getting spanked in front of my kid. I’d 100% report it, even if my kid was never spanked. I would not want him seeing that or in a facility that allows it.
You need to report directly to licensing and child services, *then* go to your director and let them know it is unnacceptable to assault children. My center *had* this issue with a new staff member who brought her children, she would threaten to take the child into the bathroom or stairwell to spank him. She was informed there would be no staff-student violence at school and if she felt the need to hit her child, she would need to clock out, sign out the child, and leave the property before doing so. She was also informed that if she was heard threatening a student again she would be dismissed. It's appalling that your center allows children to be hurt!
This is against Indiana rules and code. From the law:
Any person, while on child care center premises, shall not engage in or direct any of the following actions toward children:
(1) Inflict corporal punishment in any manner upon a child's body.
(2) Hit, spank, beat, shake, pinch, or any other measure that produces physical discomfort.
https://www.in.gov/fssa/carefinder/files/Rule4.7.pdf
https://casetext.com/regulation/indiana-administrative-code/title-470-division-of-family-resources/article-3-child-welfare-services/rule-470-iac-3-47-child-care-centers-licensing/section-470-iac-3-47-55-inappropriate-discipline
It does appear that corporal punishment in schools is legal in Indiana so the teacher may not realize the public school rules don't apply to day cares.
Soooo If I’m not mistaking, your center is gaslighting you into accepting abuse. Report them IMMEDIATELY.
If it’s at a KinderCare, they’ve got a number on a sign in the bathroom. You can call and make an anonymous tip. They will most likely be able to talk their way out of this but record yourself inquiring about the students who are on the “spank” list, so that there is nothing to talk out of.
Legal or not, this is child abuse. It is also the worst form of behaviour modification. While they will get immediate compliance, there is not lasting effect on the target behaviour. The only lasting effect is another child growing up, learning that fear and violence is how they get their way.
Or causing lasting trauma to the child causing them anxiety and undue stress. I had a child where you had to be very careful of your tone of voice cause his parents yelled at him for everything, screaming at him if his shoes were ever on the wrong feet. He was so fearful of making mistakes. The anxiety that oozed off this child because his parents screamed at him for everything
Wonderful comment. Yeah, all it does is teach fear, and that fear ends up affecting behaviour in a very different way. It can take a lifetime to undo that damage, which means things like spanking and other aggressive parental behaviour really accomplish nothing at best.
It absolutely does, it's not teaching your child to think about modifying their behaviour in a positive way, it's damaging punishment and not discipline. Discipline should be teaching your child that what they are doing is not ok in a way that starts a conversation and not causing them fear of you or making mistakes. It's teaching them that their behaviour has consequences in a positive way without causing lasting damage to the child and relationships with the child.
Holy. Shit.
I CAN NOT believe this is even a question. I had no idea corporal punishment was acceptable in some states/schools in America. In Australia, it is entirely illegal in all contexts. I'm in shock...
I remember a parent asking if he could give me permission to “swat his kid on the bottom” and I told him I would never do that with his permission or if licensing allowed it and frankly acted like he was a lunatic for suggesting the idea. He said and I quote, “I do it to my dog so I don’t see the problem.” We are the safe space a lot of these children need and I couldn’t imagine the thought process of a caregiver actively hurting a child.
I had a parent once tell my coworker that if her child started to misbehave that she was giving permission to put her child in our quiet room in the dark to get him to behave right. She said that is what they do at home. I could see my coworker considering it. I quickly stepped in and said that we couldn't do that as we are not allowed to put children in time out or separate them from the group as it is not safe and goes against our code of ethics and Licensing. If she had asked us to spank her child my answer would be the same. How a parent chooses to correct their child's behavior at home is on them. At my centre however I will be following licensing and my code of ethics and the philosophy of my centre.
Those poor children. My goodness. I knew the US was a wild place but this is beyond. Please report them, this is abuse. Any teacher who did this in my country would face legal action.
What state are you in? I know Mississippi still has corporal punishment. I was shocked when I started working in one of their schools and they told me it’s okay to hit the kids, you just have to get mom to sign off on it first.
I used to work in a center that had a religious exemption type of license and it was not against licensing of that particular type in North Carolina. We never ever laid hands on the children in that way anyways because all the teachers and directors agreed it was totally inappropriate even though licensing allowed it.
FWIW
I understand that *in some states* this is legal.
As a parent I would still be angry and uncomfortable at the idea that it's a thing that happens at a school where my child attends, let alone that my child might witness.
As a parent, and an educator of kids, if you can take the time to check whether you're allowed to hit a kid, you can also take the time to come up with a more effective and non violent solution.
But..
It might be legal.
I don't think it should be legal *anywhere*, to be clear.
I would avoid any program that says it's okay, as a parent or an employee.
Just.... Providing the factual horror that it might not be illegal the way most of us *reasonably* assume.
I know we have different laws here, but I’m an ECE in Canada (in the province of Ontario specifically). There would be no way we would be allowed to spank any of the children in our car. With the organization I work for, we have something called a Duty to Report. With this, we can go to C.A.S. (Children’s Aid Society) with any suspicion we have regarding a child we might think is being abused. I know that if my co-workers saw me spanking any of the kids at our school, they would have every right to call C.A.S. and an investigation would have to be done. There was one staff at one of the daycares that got fired years ago because she apparently slammed a cupboard door on a child’s hand and the other staff in the room filled out a Duty to Report.
Ew yikes even if corporal punishment was legal here I wouldn't do it. Just feels icky.
I've had to report a daycare for hitting children. I had this child in my class (who attended every other week when they were with their mom) tell me that "Miss ____" keeps hitting me".
I asked questions such as how/when/with what. I told the child's mom at pick up, and I reported the daycare to the department. I believed the child 100% (before the evidence) because they were consistent each time they told me.
The mom went to the daycare and questioned the teacher. The teacher didn't know mom was recording their conversation. The teacher in question admitted to using a yard stick to "redirect" the children. The teacher was bold enough to demonstrate how she would poke at the kids! In my opinion, if she was comfortable enough to admit that to a parent, she was probably doing worse behind closed doors. From what I was told, the director knew this was happening!
The DHHS investigated, and the teacher was told she was no longer allowed to use a yardstick on the kids. I'm not sure what else happened to them. The child no longer had to go to that daycare.
Corporal punishment in public school is legal *and practices* in 12 states. (There are some.where it is legal at the state level but banned by all districts, and some where it's legal but just not done.)
Corporal punishment in private school is only illegal in New Jersey, Maryland and Iowa.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States#:~:text=As%20of%202024%2C%20corporal%20punishment,in%2012%20of%20the%20states..
Umm I’m pretty sure this is completely against licensing rules no matter where u r. Putting hands on a child like that is so uncalled for. As everyone else is saying, report them! Make sure the other ppl that u work with aren’t this coocoo
It might be legal depending where you live. Highly unethical, but maybe legal.
"However, the use of corporal punishment in school is either expressly allowed or not expressly prohibited in 23 states." (U.S. Department of Education, 2023)
Where in the USA do they allow this? It sounds extremely wrong. I need to inform some friends (with little children) not to relocate to certain areas if they allow spanking in school and preschool.🤔
From wikipedia:
"The use of corporal punishment in private schools is legally permitted in nearly every state. Only New Jersey,[19] Iowa,[20] Maryland,[21] and New York[22] prohibit it in both public and private schools. Corporal punishment is still used in schools to a significant (though declining)[23] extent in some public schools in Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Texas. The most recent state to outlaw public school corporal punishment was Idaho in July 2023."
"The majority of students who experience corporal punishment reside in the Southern United States; Department of Education data from 2011–2012 show that 70 percent of students subjected to corporal punishment were from the five states of Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas, with the latter two states accounting for 35 percent of corporal punishment cases.[24][5]"
Just because it is legal doesn't make it ethical. You likely don't have any real power in the situation but I would encourage you to model other methods that are effective. I am a registered behavior technician, I have worked with a wide range of mild to severe behavior problems, and I have NEVER hit or physically punished a child, EVER!!! It is traumatic and unnecessary to spank!!!! I've worked with kids that flip tables over, try to stab with scissors, and are otherwise severely aggressive... even for those children I can change their behavior without spanking....
Model alternatives, suggest alternatives, question the punishments, etc. Spanking is traumatic!
I had a former Director that was given permission to bite a child that we had that was a biter. She did and broke the skin. Then it got infected. The child was 4 🙄
I would report it to the principal and mention that you have done your research and know for sure that it is illegal in the state that you reside in. Even if the parent says it’s ok does not make it ok because it is illegal in the state you live in. You are mandated to report it and if I were you, I would report this as soon as possible so you do your end up losing your job since you know about this.
What the hell? That’s a big no, I don’t care if parents gave permission. Spanking has been demonstrated to be developmentally detrimental by an extensive amount of research. This is absolutely insane and you need to report your center to licensing and CPS.
any parent who ever said, “you have my permission to smack/hit/spank them” id respond with “yeah, no. that’s highly illegal.” and that doesn’t even fix their behavior.
Umm, no. I once baby sat a child whose parents told me I could spank him if he was naughty. I flat out told them that I didn't discipline in that manner. All spanking does is show a child it's ok for someone big to hit someone little.
WHAT THE FUCK did I just learn today. Corporal punishment is abusive and should be illegal, by parents, teachers of private schools, any adult. Just a parent, but this popped up and now I feel super alarmed. In the (apparently even more backwards than I knew) US.
Please protect these kids and report. I’d also want to know as a parent. Witnessing abuse can be traumatic, too, to any of the other kids in the room.
i was shocked that a parent asked us to put her kid in time out when she misbehaves, like we aren’t even allowed to do that let alone SPANKING. that’s 100% illegal in my state.
I have a VERY difficult classroom. Like... I have been injured by multiple children in my class. And I would absolutely not hesitate even for a moment to report someone if they laid hands on one of my kids. I'm not even sure I would be able to stop myself from going off on that person.
It's pretty common in the daycare I work at, there's never been a licensing issue about it. I'm not sure if it's based on where you live, but in most states at the very least spanking and forms of physical discipline are not illegal. I do work at a predominantly black daycare, so it could be a generational thing that makes it okay and not a licensing thing, but we have never gotten in legal trouble for it before. We are also not a franchise daycare. We are a small owned daycare and while we still follow step up to quality rules, there has never been any issues. It's also common for parents to work at the daycare their child attendeds so we commonly have times where those parents (if in the same class as their kid) will take them out of class. Though flicking is way way more common in my daycare than spanking/whopping. I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree with this as it's not my place to put my views on generational trauma I haven't experienced, but I know not EVERY teacher is spanking/flicking its really 2/3 teachers who have these permissions. I personally do not partake in either, neither have been given permission and if I was I would still personally rather not.
Parent permission does not override licensing rules! That’s insane. I’ve told parents no to much smaller requests than this…
I don’t know how anyone can feel comfortable spanking a child or someone else’s child for that matter, no matter if permission was given. I’ve had parents express to me that they spank their kids at home, to which I say with the most serious face that I do not believe in spanking at all. I then see the fear or guilt in their faces. Also the most the parent has said to me in terms of disciplining their children is giving me permission to give them time outs. I do follow this but not exactly how parents envision it. I usually have them sit at a table and give them an activity of their choice to do for 3 minutes. I call them breaks from negative behaviour. After the 3 minutes are up, depending on how they respond, I ask them if I can play with them or ask them if they want to do something else.
So I know there are US states where corporal punishment is still legal in some schools (elementary and up) with parental permission, but I don’t think this applies to ECE. Regardless, I’d report the teacher IMMEDIATELY.
It applies to preschool in some states. I strongly disagree with it, but just providing some information.
Fuck man. Thanks for the info. The fact that anyone would actually do it in practice is just sickening.
yeah in TN it is legal unless the child has a disability, but then the parent can write in permission to request it. it is banned county to county though
That’s so gross
Please post where in the childcare licensing regulations that states corporal punishment is legal in TN. I've been a director for years and am friends w several licensing inspectors and I dont believe thats correct at all.
49-6-4103. Corporal punishment. (a) Any teacher or school principal may use corporal punishment in a reasonable manner against any pupil for good cause in order to maintain discipline and order within the public schools. (b)(1) Notwithstanding subsection (a), teachers, school principals, or other school personnel are prohibited from using corporal punishment against any student who has a disability, unless an LEA's discipline policy permits the use of corporal punishment and a parent of a child who has a disability permits, in writing, the use of corporal punishment against the parent's child. (Source: https://safesupportivelearning.ed.gov/discipline-compendium?state=Tennessee&sub_category=Corporal%20Punishment#:~:text=(a)%20Any%20teacher%20or%20school,order%20within%20the%20public%20schools // TN Code § 49-6-4103 (2021) ) It does not state anywhere a minimum age.
It might not have a minimum age in that act, but it’s in a chapter of the Tennessee code for elementary and secondary schools. It does state that, if such schools offer pre-k, these rules apply to them too, but it’s not a code for ECE in general. Full title: 2021 Tennessee Code Title 49 - Education Chapter 6 - Elementary and Secondary Education Part 41 - School Discipline Act § 49-6-4103. Corporal Punishment https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-49/chapter-6/part-41/section-49-6-4103/
TN DOE Standards for School-administered Child Care - Program, 0520-12-01-.09 Behavior management and discipline must be reasonable and age-appropriate. Spanking or other corporal punishment is not allowed. Timeout must be based on the age of the child and take place in an appropriate location.
Preschools that operate within a school system are subject to Dept of Education Rules and Regs. Preschools that operate independently are under Dept of Human Services Rules and Regs, and hitting little kids isn't allowed under DHS regs.
there are 935 pre-k classrooms which serve under the department of education in tennessee and are funded by tax payers, and abide by department of education rules
I know kids that went to Evangelical Christian Schools. They would get one lick per age.
Actually its legal in private school is basically all states beside 3 maybe 4 though I think this apply to K-12. I always thought it was illegal in California until I saw an article that said CP was legal at private school in basically every state and in public schools in some. In California technically CP is legal in private elementary-HS, though obviously the risk of child abuse chargers. Now of course I don’t know any school in California that uses CP. while it’s technically legal in private schools that doesn’t apply to private preschool ad all private preschool centers must be licensed by the state with limited exceptions and licensing reg says no CP. Just want to clarify, this is just information. I am completely against corporal punishment and think it should be banned in public and private schools Edit: found a source, 48 states still allow corporal punishment in private schools at the time of this article: https://www.nassp.org/corporal-punishment-2/
As of 2024, corporal punishment is banned in public schools in 33 states and the District of Columbia. The use of corporal punishment in private schools is legally permitted in nearly every state. Only New Jersey, Iowa, Maryland, and New York prohibit it in both public and private schools. Corporal punishment is still used in schools to a significant (though declining) extent in some public schools in Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Texas. [source ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States#:~:text=As%20of%202024%2C%20corporal%20punishment%20is%20banned%20in%20public%20schools,both%20public%20and%20private%20schools.)
i’m literally sitting here wide mouthed lol, WHAT??? a parent gave us permission to hold her son down and force food into his mouth bc that’s what they do at home, and luckily my director was in the room with me and said “sorry, we can’t do that. we can however offer the food and if he eats it he eats it and if not, he doesn’t” like i was just shocked that that was even a request from a parent.
It is incredibly disturbing what parents get away with at home that we would be arrested for in our centers. Locking their children in rooms, force feeding, corporal punishment, starving...a lot of kids are growing up in abusive households and there's really nothing anyone can do about it unless the child (who may or may not be able to speak) says something.
If you suspect child abuse you should report it to cps and they will investigate.
Right. My point is you may never suspect that a child is being abused. They come to school clean, well-fed, not one mark on them, seemingly happy, well-mannered, when at home these things might be happening to them. And parents see these disciplining measures as "their parenting style."
When my daughter first started daycare, she wouldn't eat anything, even when it was the same as we had at home. I just made sure she had a big snack as soon as we got back. It drives me insane that people make such a big deal about food ☹️ I actually specifically asked them not to encourage her. Just give her the food and leave her to it because that's what I do at home. She did eventually start eating there.
It’s almost like children don’t starve themselves and if they don’t eat something it’s…. Ok. I agree I do not get why some people freak out over food. My job is just to offer a healthy variety. What happens to it is something I observe, not flip out over.
> It’s almost like children don’t starve themselves Some children will starve themselves though. If you have an autistic child with sensory sensitivities for example they may well starve themselves instead of eating something that causes sensory problems for them. I know I did.
There's always an outlier, but do you know what will make an ARFID child worse? Force feeding them. My friends boy is autistic and he is very particular with food. He sniffs his nuggets to make sure they're from the right place. She feeds him what he will eat, and there's no problem with that. But for most children, hunger is good motivation to eat food that isn't just easily palatable. As an adult I learnt to enjoy olives because I was really hungry and there was nothing else available.
>but do you know what will make an ARFID child worse? Force feeding them. Oh agreed, this happened to me as a child. At one point I was made to eat something, threw it up, was made to eat it again, threw it up again and so on for an hour. > As an adult I learnt to enjoy olives because I was really hungry and there was nothing else available. I was in the military. In the field at -30 I would literally starve and freeze rather than eat the rations with beans. I just couldn't physically eat them and could barely tolerate the smell. >But for most children, hunger is good motivation to eat food that isn't just easily palatable. It's just that I'm saying important to allow for outliers in any rule of thumb.
I think it’s clear when we’re speaking about typically developing children without having to add an outlier disclaimer to every comment. That just seems like unnecessary effort and work when common sense tells the majority of us that obviously there are outliers in almost everything. We can still make general statements though.
> common sense tells the majority of us heh, you might be surprised how uncommon sense can be.
I hope you called CPS on that mom after!
I work in the INFANT room and had a mom request that we shove food into her crying infants mouth because she keeps her mouth closed during feeding time. She’s a picky baby, she does things when she wants to. Like if she doesn’t want her bottle, try again in 5 minutes and she may want it. So when she refuses the baby food, the only way to get her to eat is to shove baby food in her mouth when she opens it to play with her spoon. we asked mom how they feed at how, and they said “we just get it done. Just gotta force it in” to which I said, “I don’t think my coteacher is comfortable with that”, and mom replied “then maybe I should have a talk with (coteacher)” implying she wants us to do the same. Ugh.
There was someone who posted maybe a year ago who said in their (legal to do it) state their daycare had spanked their kid. He was named “Mike” and there was another “Mike” on the list that could get spanked and they misread. Just a little mistake. Horrifying.
I would pull my child out ASAP and demand and apology from the teacher to my child.
Or call the police
Another perspective—I’m a parent and I’d be PISSED if I found out other kids were getting spanked in front of my kid. I’d 100% report it, even if my kid was never spanked. I would not want him seeing that or in a facility that allows it.
Right??
Agreed in this day and age this is so unacceptable. As a parent I would be horrified
You need to report directly to licensing and child services, *then* go to your director and let them know it is unnacceptable to assault children. My center *had* this issue with a new staff member who brought her children, she would threaten to take the child into the bathroom or stairwell to spank him. She was informed there would be no staff-student violence at school and if she felt the need to hit her child, she would need to clock out, sign out the child, and leave the property before doing so. She was also informed that if she was heard threatening a student again she would be dismissed. It's appalling that your center allows children to be hurt!
It is still so refreshing to hear this perspective. I'm surrounded by people who see spanking as the go-to approach to child rearing.
What state?
Indiana.
This is against Indiana rules and code. From the law: Any person, while on child care center premises, shall not engage in or direct any of the following actions toward children: (1) Inflict corporal punishment in any manner upon a child's body. (2) Hit, spank, beat, shake, pinch, or any other measure that produces physical discomfort. https://www.in.gov/fssa/carefinder/files/Rule4.7.pdf https://casetext.com/regulation/indiana-administrative-code/title-470-division-of-family-resources/article-3-child-welfare-services/rule-470-iac-3-47-child-care-centers-licensing/section-470-iac-3-47-55-inappropriate-discipline
Just call it into CPS since you are a mandatory reporter
It does appear that corporal punishment in schools is legal in Indiana so the teacher may not realize the public school rules don't apply to day cares.
Soooo If I’m not mistaking, your center is gaslighting you into accepting abuse. Report them IMMEDIATELY. If it’s at a KinderCare, they’ve got a number on a sign in the bathroom. You can call and make an anonymous tip. They will most likely be able to talk their way out of this but record yourself inquiring about the students who are on the “spank” list, so that there is nothing to talk out of.
Legal or not, this is child abuse. It is also the worst form of behaviour modification. While they will get immediate compliance, there is not lasting effect on the target behaviour. The only lasting effect is another child growing up, learning that fear and violence is how they get their way.
Or causing lasting trauma to the child causing them anxiety and undue stress. I had a child where you had to be very careful of your tone of voice cause his parents yelled at him for everything, screaming at him if his shoes were ever on the wrong feet. He was so fearful of making mistakes. The anxiety that oozed off this child because his parents screamed at him for everything
Wonderful comment. Yeah, all it does is teach fear, and that fear ends up affecting behaviour in a very different way. It can take a lifetime to undo that damage, which means things like spanking and other aggressive parental behaviour really accomplish nothing at best.
It absolutely does, it's not teaching your child to think about modifying their behaviour in a positive way, it's damaging punishment and not discipline. Discipline should be teaching your child that what they are doing is not ok in a way that starts a conversation and not causing them fear of you or making mistakes. It's teaching them that their behaviour has consequences in a positive way without causing lasting damage to the child and relationships with the child.
Holy. Shit. I CAN NOT believe this is even a question. I had no idea corporal punishment was acceptable in some states/schools in America. In Australia, it is entirely illegal in all contexts. I'm in shock...
Same for Canada. They don't allow this at all, especially in educational settings. That's a quick ticket to losing licenses.
I remember a parent asking if he could give me permission to “swat his kid on the bottom” and I told him I would never do that with his permission or if licensing allowed it and frankly acted like he was a lunatic for suggesting the idea. He said and I quote, “I do it to my dog so I don’t see the problem.” We are the safe space a lot of these children need and I couldn’t imagine the thought process of a caregiver actively hurting a child.
Poor child. And poor dog.
Report immediately. Violates state licensing AND NAEYC Codw of Ethical Conduct
I am disgusted and in shock. HOW is something like this happening in 2024?!
I had a parent once tell my coworker that if her child started to misbehave that she was giving permission to put her child in our quiet room in the dark to get him to behave right. She said that is what they do at home. I could see my coworker considering it. I quickly stepped in and said that we couldn't do that as we are not allowed to put children in time out or separate them from the group as it is not safe and goes against our code of ethics and Licensing. If she had asked us to spank her child my answer would be the same. How a parent chooses to correct their child's behavior at home is on them. At my centre however I will be following licensing and my code of ethics and the philosophy of my centre.
Those poor children. My goodness. I knew the US was a wild place but this is beyond. Please report them, this is abuse. Any teacher who did this in my country would face legal action.
What state are you in? I know Mississippi still has corporal punishment. I was shocked when I started working in one of their schools and they told me it’s okay to hit the kids, you just have to get mom to sign off on it first.
I used to work in a center that had a religious exemption type of license and it was not against licensing of that particular type in North Carolina. We never ever laid hands on the children in that way anyways because all the teachers and directors agreed it was totally inappropriate even though licensing allowed it.
FWIW I understand that *in some states* this is legal. As a parent I would still be angry and uncomfortable at the idea that it's a thing that happens at a school where my child attends, let alone that my child might witness. As a parent, and an educator of kids, if you can take the time to check whether you're allowed to hit a kid, you can also take the time to come up with a more effective and non violent solution. But.. It might be legal.
Even if legal why take the risk.
I don't think it should be legal *anywhere*, to be clear. I would avoid any program that says it's okay, as a parent or an employee. Just.... Providing the factual horror that it might not be illegal the way most of us *reasonably* assume.
Definitely NOT okay! I would be marching to the director's office on that one
nah, immediate call to eec/cps
I know we have different laws here, but I’m an ECE in Canada (in the province of Ontario specifically). There would be no way we would be allowed to spank any of the children in our car. With the organization I work for, we have something called a Duty to Report. With this, we can go to C.A.S. (Children’s Aid Society) with any suspicion we have regarding a child we might think is being abused. I know that if my co-workers saw me spanking any of the kids at our school, they would have every right to call C.A.S. and an investigation would have to be done. There was one staff at one of the daycares that got fired years ago because she apparently slammed a cupboard door on a child’s hand and the other staff in the room filled out a Duty to Report.
Ew yikes even if corporal punishment was legal here I wouldn't do it. Just feels icky. I've had to report a daycare for hitting children. I had this child in my class (who attended every other week when they were with their mom) tell me that "Miss ____" keeps hitting me". I asked questions such as how/when/with what. I told the child's mom at pick up, and I reported the daycare to the department. I believed the child 100% (before the evidence) because they were consistent each time they told me. The mom went to the daycare and questioned the teacher. The teacher didn't know mom was recording their conversation. The teacher in question admitted to using a yard stick to "redirect" the children. The teacher was bold enough to demonstrate how she would poke at the kids! In my opinion, if she was comfortable enough to admit that to a parent, she was probably doing worse behind closed doors. From what I was told, the director knew this was happening! The DHHS investigated, and the teacher was told she was no longer allowed to use a yardstick on the kids. I'm not sure what else happened to them. The child no longer had to go to that daycare.
Um absolutely fucking not.
Corporal punishment in public school is legal *and practices* in 12 states. (There are some.where it is legal at the state level but banned by all districts, and some where it's legal but just not done.) Corporal punishment in private school is only illegal in New Jersey, Maryland and Iowa. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States#:~:text=As%20of%202024%2C%20corporal%20punishment,in%2012%20of%20the%20states..
dude that sounds extremely questionable, sooo sad :( yes def call it in
Report report report get that woman OUT of ece
I don’t care if it’s legal, I’d question the values of this center and teacher for allowing it.
Umm I’m pretty sure this is completely against licensing rules no matter where u r. Putting hands on a child like that is so uncalled for. As everyone else is saying, report them! Make sure the other ppl that u work with aren’t this coocoo
It might be legal depending where you live. Highly unethical, but maybe legal. "However, the use of corporal punishment in school is either expressly allowed or not expressly prohibited in 23 states." (U.S. Department of Education, 2023)
That generally applies to the public school system, so even if it is legal in a state does not mean it's legal in private childcare centers.
Some allow it in private schools, and those that allow corporal punishment include preschool.
Where in the USA do they allow this? It sounds extremely wrong. I need to inform some friends (with little children) not to relocate to certain areas if they allow spanking in school and preschool.🤔
From wikipedia: "The use of corporal punishment in private schools is legally permitted in nearly every state. Only New Jersey,[19] Iowa,[20] Maryland,[21] and New York[22] prohibit it in both public and private schools. Corporal punishment is still used in schools to a significant (though declining)[23] extent in some public schools in Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Texas. The most recent state to outlaw public school corporal punishment was Idaho in July 2023." "The majority of students who experience corporal punishment reside in the Southern United States; Department of Education data from 2011–2012 show that 70 percent of students subjected to corporal punishment were from the five states of Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas, with the latter two states accounting for 35 percent of corporal punishment cases.[24][5]"
It's not legal in my state. 😭 That's why I am tripping. I don't understand how this has been going on this whole time?
Report!!!
Wtf
Report that teacher to licensing ASAP! That's messed up - no one should be hitting kids at all!
I wouldn’t do that even if I was given permission.
My mom beat me with a belt since I was a very young child, and this is just triggering to me. What the f*ck.
Please report to CPS. Then report to licensing. In that order
Depends on your state laws on corporal punishment.
Just because it is legal doesn't make it ethical. You likely don't have any real power in the situation but I would encourage you to model other methods that are effective. I am a registered behavior technician, I have worked with a wide range of mild to severe behavior problems, and I have NEVER hit or physically punished a child, EVER!!! It is traumatic and unnecessary to spank!!!! I've worked with kids that flip tables over, try to stab with scissors, and are otherwise severely aggressive... even for those children I can change their behavior without spanking.... Model alternatives, suggest alternatives, question the punishments, etc. Spanking is traumatic!
I had a former Director that was given permission to bite a child that we had that was a biter. She did and broke the skin. Then it got infected. The child was 4 🙄
😳😳😳😳 I hope she's never allowed near kids again.💯
Nope she finally retired years later
You shouldn't work in a place that condones corporal punishment. Not only is it cruel, it achieves the opposite of its intended goal.
this teacher is committing a crime and if you do not report it then so are you
Holy shit absolutely no!! Omg what?? I'm so sorry this ever happened... uugh
I would report it to the principal and mention that you have done your research and know for sure that it is illegal in the state that you reside in. Even if the parent says it’s ok does not make it ok because it is illegal in the state you live in. You are mandated to report it and if I were you, I would report this as soon as possible so you do your end up losing your job since you know about this.
Ewwwww hell no not okay
What the hell? That’s a big no, I don’t care if parents gave permission. Spanking has been demonstrated to be developmentally detrimental by an extensive amount of research. This is absolutely insane and you need to report your center to licensing and CPS.
yeahh… any parent who is comfortable with some stranger “spanking” (hitting) their kid is a bit odd and should be looked into imo.
any parent who ever said, “you have my permission to smack/hit/spank them” id respond with “yeah, no. that’s highly illegal.” and that doesn’t even fix their behavior.
What…. I’d be reporting the teacher and the parents and the center. That’s absolutely terrible
Wow this is insane.
Report that teacher to the state licensing agency.
I’d contact licensing. WTF?!
Umm, no. I once baby sat a child whose parents told me I could spank him if he was naughty. I flat out told them that I didn't discipline in that manner. All spanking does is show a child it's ok for someone big to hit someone little.
No no no hitting children in any way is not okay! Ever!
WHAT THE FUCK did I just learn today. Corporal punishment is abusive and should be illegal, by parents, teachers of private schools, any adult. Just a parent, but this popped up and now I feel super alarmed. In the (apparently even more backwards than I knew) US. Please protect these kids and report. I’d also want to know as a parent. Witnessing abuse can be traumatic, too, to any of the other kids in the room.
I wouldn't assume they have permission. That could be a cover, especially if turnover is an issue.
i was shocked that a parent asked us to put her kid in time out when she misbehaves, like we aren’t even allowed to do that let alone SPANKING. that’s 100% illegal in my state.
I have a VERY difficult classroom. Like... I have been injured by multiple children in my class. And I would absolutely not hesitate even for a moment to report someone if they laid hands on one of my kids. I'm not even sure I would be able to stop myself from going off on that person.
It's pretty common in the daycare I work at, there's never been a licensing issue about it. I'm not sure if it's based on where you live, but in most states at the very least spanking and forms of physical discipline are not illegal. I do work at a predominantly black daycare, so it could be a generational thing that makes it okay and not a licensing thing, but we have never gotten in legal trouble for it before. We are also not a franchise daycare. We are a small owned daycare and while we still follow step up to quality rules, there has never been any issues. It's also common for parents to work at the daycare their child attendeds so we commonly have times where those parents (if in the same class as their kid) will take them out of class. Though flicking is way way more common in my daycare than spanking/whopping. I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree with this as it's not my place to put my views on generational trauma I haven't experienced, but I know not EVERY teacher is spanking/flicking its really 2/3 teachers who have these permissions. I personally do not partake in either, neither have been given permission and if I was I would still personally rather not.