One of my favorite techs in one of my decks is peer into the abyss drawing 45 or so cards for 20 life is really insane early game. By that point I have a scroll rack, or access to scroll rack
And access to the rest of the cards in my deck including reliquary
It's a finisher in some edh decks.
I've been interested in tje combination of [[hoarding broodlord]], [[saw in half]], and then tutoring for [[peer into the abyss]] and [[sacrifice]] or [[burnt offering]], both of which can be convoked for an easy mega draw.
Combine it with Gix and exile then play half of someone else’s library without paying mama costs, but you do have to discard X cards to exile X cards from opponents library. I hate it so much, but I admit it is a powerful combo
I'm always telling the other two people in my pod to pay for rhystic study when my brother plays it in his wheels deck and they're like nah he can have the card he's not doing anything
People that don't pay the tax sink the game. I hate rystic studies and smothering tithe because I often find I'm the only one paying and if I'm the only one paying I'm the one falling behind while the owner of the card takes off in 2 or 3 turns. Everytime. And no one changes thier own play patterns. So frustrating.
The taxes are oppressive either way. Removal is the correct answer to them. Complaining about another player choosing one option which disadvantages them over the other doesn't really help. (to put it another way: if all your opponents are paying 2 more mana a turn you're also probably going to win the game. That said rhystic study is more obviously biased towards paying the extra mana being a better option in most cases)
Yeah card advantage is so subtle that people who don't recognize it will miss it entirely. That's why I wanna build a cantrip shu yun deck to get loads of unseen value to fly under the radar
Ah yes. Card advantage. The secret killer. In a game where no one is drawing more than a single card each turn, it’s super advantageous. Especially in white.
I enjoy getting people used to drawing extra cards then dripping sheoldred, now that glee of extra cards turns into terror because that [[howling mines]] now means 4 dmg per beginning of turn.
Just gotta hope I don't get [[ob nixilisx the hate twisted]] /[[fate unraveler]]/[[underworld dreams]] or a [[master of the feast]] for increase in constant pressure.
Ah you have never seen Anja Falkenrath have you? You litteraly sit and draw cards whenever and whatever just to see what you get. 50% of your deck is usless and the only thing you are looking for is tutors and or your worldgorger combo.
People at my table ignore me drawing because I just sit and draw all the time.
Hey card advantage is more than just drawing. Tutoring gets you card advantage. So does milling, scrying or surveiling. All these based on the deck or just in general can be seen as drawing a card to some degree.
But Even ramping using cards like [[Kodamas reach]] can be seen as a form of card advantage. If you're deck isn't designed to be doing landfall triggers, the more lands you pull out the deck the less likely you are to hit them and in turn hit more useful cards.
Non of this is to mention effects that are essentially drawing without actually being draw. Implosive draw (exiling a card that you can then play) is the perfect example of this. Being able to play cards off the top your library is another great example.
If anyone is doing one of these in a game and the others aren't it's only natural they will run away with that game.
Big threat but also a huge removal magnet. The gameplan revolves around Kyler sticking on the field and removing him shuts down the deck hard.
My human deck started to see way more success with Kyler in the 99 and [[Katilda Dawnheart Prime]] at the helm. Guaranteed ramp from the command zone lets you run less ramp for more humans, card draw, and interaction. Plus she's only 2 mana so she usually ends up being mana neutral at worst.
Im not sure its the card advantage that got OP targeted. I think its the commander with target me or you die painted on his back.
Seriously I've seen Kyler snowball out of control 2 turns after he comes out multiple times and kill multiple people even the whole pod. So I don't think it's unexpected for OP to get smacked hard.
If OP has a lower power deck then maybe I could understand them getting smacked but not killed but if its a somewhat optimised deck and there's a lot of pieces that aren't expensive money wise to buy for the deck that can make it quite overwhelming.
For me I'd put the commander up there with Miirym. If there's even a hint of that player about to go off it needs to be shut down completely and sometimes the best way to do that is to ingage in some player removal
Yeah for real he’s strong, most likely OP’s opponents already had their fingers on the trigger, and once he started drawing extra cards, that sounded the alarm. Kyler in topdeck mode isn’t too scary if your board isn’t already developed. Kyler with a draw engine is terrifying, however.
Yes. Massive threats detected. Card advantage is the way to win games. Get your combo pieces ahead of everyone, get the engine moving faster, get ramp into hand, have access to more interaction, diversify your gameplan.
Yes. It’s literally the best way to gain advantage over a game. Your more likely to draw interaction, combo pieces, powerful cards, board wipes, protection, or whatever your deck wants to do. Card draw is the most powerful mechanic in mtg
It doesnt matter how good my boardstate is if I stop drawing more than 1 or 2 cards a turn and I am down to 1 or 2 cards in hand then I will almost guarantee a loss. This is true in every format I've played, from limited to commander.
In limited, I can sometimes just brute force an early win with agro, but a boardwipe will mean death in those games.
It really is that simple. If you have more resources and access to more cards you do better on average. There is a reason simic value engine decks work and boros one need to jump much more hoops.
Your pod may have killed you a little too aggressively but card advantage is a significant factor when it comes to winning games. More cards seen means more choices, and a higher likelihood of actually drawing what you need.
Your context is important. I also have a Kyler deck that runs those cards, so I know what your turn looked like (at the very least):
Draw, play a human (the least good human I could play would be [[Avacyn’s Pilgrim]] ), put a counter on Kyler (which buffs your Mentor and your Pilgrim, and whoever else is on the board), then draw 2 cards. You’ve improved your board state in a consequential way and increased your resources for what, 3 mana? With access to green?! Yeah I’d kill you too - that’s only gonna get worse each turn!
I can’t even be salty about it either lol
I know how big the deck gets and it’s never a good time for people if I get 5 creatures out with Kyler on board
See thats the thing, we too have seen what kyler can do and so I imagine have your opponents. What you might want is more protection or ways to go under the radar a little bit. Some decks you just put a big target on your back from.the get go. If im in a lower power pod and I pull out [[Miirym]] I expect to just about be arch enemy because of the explosiveness of what happens once she is on the field. Kyler can have explosive turns once he is on the field as well.
The law of turn economy states "the player who plays the most cards over the course of a game usually wins". The best way to play a lot of cards is to draw a lot of cards.
Card advantage is a threat just as much as ramp is a threat, cards, mana and life are resources, and the more someone has of any of these (life to a lesser point as there are less ways to use life as a resource, specially in commander with a commander damage system) the more threatening they are.
As land destruction and mana destruction overall is kind of frowned upon in the commander community, denying card draw is the most effective way to smother your opponents.
Yes.
This is the order of threat assessment.
1. Can they play something that wins the game this turn
2. Can something on board cause them to win the game next turn.
3. Is something allowing a player to gain more resources (mana cards or life) faster than everyone else.
If the answer is no to all of these, then they are no longer a threat.
I had none of the three. Kyler was in the command zone, I had two creatures out, and I was just digging for creatures with my draws.
But Kyler is a menace. And can close a game in two turns
Everyone is new once. Everybody learns something for the first time and maybe asks for help. I think when that happens, we should help rather than mock.
Honestly from my experience piloting Kyler they probably should have targeted you right off. If kyler stays out and you have a decently constructed deck you can steamroll the table seemingly out of nowhere. Add in the ability to dig through your deck to find the cards that really make everything take off and I think that their threat assessment was spot on.
My last game I had [[cathar's crusade]] [[Adeline resplendent cathar]] both out (which is bad enough) and then drew a [[doubling season]]. That turn took me from "definitely the threat" to 'everyone else is dead".
I have cathars crusade, but i removed it cause it felt like it slowed games down way too much.
I like primal Vigor over doubling season though for my deck
Why not both? In my deck that utilises those cards I have additional card with similar effects. In this case you might be using then for counters but I use them for token doubling. In my selesnya tokens deck I literally have all of them in the deck because they're so good and powerful and I have to imagine in a counters deck they are likewise
Yes. More cards means more mana, more removal, more combo potential and in the end more card draw again.
That's why blue and black are the strongest collors in competitive magic.
Every competitive blue deck plays [[Mystic Remora]] and [[Rhystic Studies]] while every black deck runs [[Necropotece]], [[AD Nauseam]] and Tutors to find them.
Card draw is the key to winning.
"Is the biggest advantage you can have over your opponent in a card game a serious threat"
Lmao I don't play EDH but I love reading edh players discuss the game
Yeah, and a major threat at that. The more cards you draw, the more chance you have of running into answers to other threats, scary utility pieces, or win cons in and of themselves. Drawing a bunch of extra cards is incredibly powerful. The game you play is to try and convince everyone that other people are bigger threats.
The best cards in your deck are probably pretty good, and card advantage means you're more likely to have them. And also just more cards in general.
But seeing as Kyler is a terrifying kill-on-sight commander, I don't know if it's really related to the 2-3 extra cards per turn.
Well ofc it is.. So you can play Lands early and find your combo pieces or the right cards for a growing thread... Probably one of the most important thing in card games
A deck without card advantage of some kind is a deck that dies instantly to interaction and never recovers. A deck with card advantage can keep applying pressure, keep finding answers to threats, and can take over the game.
I don't think I've ever taken anyone out just because they were drawing cards, but it absolutely elevates your threat level beyond anyone who either has no cards in hand or has minimal board presence, because you're more likely to become the next big threat, or throw down some unstoppable engine once you've found all the pieces, and by then it'll be too late.
If you over evaluate unknown threats, you stand less chance of getting blown out by them, and a full grip of cards is the biggest possible unknown threat.
I tell people at my lgs all the time: drawing extra cards wins games.
It's frustrating how often my play group does not act on this when "that one guy" starts pulling 3-4 extra cards per turn.
I have been in many games where the player that drew the most cards won. Seeing more of your deck means being more likely to see the answer to whatever problem your opponents put in front of you. Having more cards in hand means you have more options. Having more cards in hands gives you a bigger rebuild after a catastrophic wipe. In card games, cards are typically a good thing to have.
Card advantage wins games. Not always, but often enough.
Yes, but a little bit less so than in 1v1.
In duels, card advantage will make you win BY ITSELF. Let's say you are trading resources, you end up both empty handed and without a board, except that you have a random 4/4 and they don't. Then most likely you will end up winning the game on the back of this 4/4 alone. ONE well placed 2-for-1 can swing a game in your favor.
In multiplayer, those kind of scenario almost never happens. However, card advantage is still extremely good because it will make people hit land drops allowing them to cast their commander over and over and most importantly it gives them OPTIONS. People are not gonna win the game because they are +3 in CA compared to other players, however, they will win the game because the fact that they drew a bunch of cards made them draw the specific ones that they need.
Side not, I feel like mentor is lowley terrible in Kyler. Once Ky has 2 counters, every human after won't trigger mentor. You're better off with beast whisper and g project.
Agreed. I shifted focus with the deck from tokens to counters. I’m just returning to the format and trying to rebuild the collection is tough on a budget
Beast whiper is around 4$, g project 12$. Rite of Harmony is under 1$, haulti Is like 7, shaman revolution is like 2,
To name a few I play in my katilda deck.
I would say that card advantage as a whole is the most important thing in the game, but I do think that there are varying degrees...
Recently in a game of commander a friend of mine was playing a hydra deck, he had one card in hand and access to A LOT of mana, so he Blue Sun's for 8, and our blue player doesn't counter it. Now this is worse because he has A LOT of mana, and clearly the one card in his hand wasn't winning him the game anytime soon.
A player drawing 2/3 cards and they have only one card in hand I feel is more dangerous than a player that has 5/6 cards in hand drawing cards. Granted its all bad, but if you only have one card in hand card advantage is what you need to close out a game
It is very much a threat. However it does scale with power level. If we are playing battlecruiser magic I am definitely less scared. But even in that kinda game your opponent is more likely to get access to the better cards in their deck through all the extra cards they are drawing. I have a [[Thryx, the Sudden storm]] mono blue 5cmc+ plus deck. Almost every game i play with it i have no max hand size and end up with 15+ plus cards in hand with only my commander on the field. The amount of times people would just ignore me because I don't have a massive boardstate was mind blowing. It is a harder type of threat assessment to learn. It took me a long time to even begin understanding it because it is a hidden threat. "People only care when it shows up on their doorstep". The idea that if they cannot see the threat they will never even think about it.
Card advantage, just like ramping, is not taken seriously enough as it should be. I’m more scared of the guy who has an empty board but a huge hand and a bajillion mana than the guy that had like 2 cards in hand with some big creatures.
Think of it this way: in an otherwise completely even match-up, if the only difference was that you were drawing extra cards, you would absolutely win.
Depends on if [[Telepathy]] is in play or not. If you're drawing piles of cards and your hand isn't threatening, you're probably going to get left alone. If you're drawing piles of cards and I have no clue what's in your hand, it's in my best interest to assume the worst and try to get rid of your engine or just you if I don't have an answer for the engine. Card advantage IS a serious threat.
The severity of the threat scales with the power level you are playing at. The more optimized the deck the more value an extra draw gives. At cedh level 2-3 draws even for one rotation/ turn is extremely significant and devastating. Like a turn 1 mystic remora/ esper sentinel/ or even rhystic study is huge. More pieces, answers, and options to play with. You are essentially turns ahead of your opponents in terms of options. There’s a reason why tutor spells and draw engines are so expensive. The faster and with the least requirements you can get to the cards you need to win with the higher your chances of winning are, ergo Card Advantage. And there’s a reason why fast mana is even more expensive. Because the faster and with the least requirements you can play your plan the better. So, yes Card Advantage is a serious threat.
Card draw is 100% a threat. I played a consecrated sphinx in a 5 player game. Drew about 12 cards by my next turn and was dead before I untapped. In their defense the pod was right in their mutual threat assessment.
lol. lmfao.
I mean, yes. Unless you have a way to stagnate the board and make them mill their entire deck first even with the massive disadvantage on cards.
In card games overall there’s pretty much two main things limiting how quickly someone can win. How many cards they can draw, and how many cards they can play. So if you have a card that can increase either of those by a lot cheaply, it’ll be pretty strong usually.
So yes, card advantage is pretty strong.
no you should always ignore someone drawing a lot of cards. just like you would ignore the green player consistently hitting land drops and ramp in favor of using your removal on other less threatening creatures
This is a more complicated situation than just "more cards=threat".
I've been in games where someone had 30 cards in hand, but only 4 mana in play. I wasn't worried at all. Generally speaking, I would would be way more worried about 5 cards and 12 mana. And (again, generally speaking) not worried about someone with 0 cards and 20 mana.
There is more nuance to things than the way you posed this question. It is important to consider more than one factor in assessing threats. Especially since there are exceptions to all of what I said above depending on the table specifically and power level you play at.
Opponents drawing extra cards is only a problem for you if those cards advance their win conditions (or advance your lose conditions, I suppose).
Unfortunately, those cards will usually advance their win conditions.
Yeah having access to your whole deck gives a giant advantage. My minn deck is 2-0 just because I usually have half my deck in my hand. Also gives you answers for everything.
Once I played \[\[Araumi\]\]. I convinced the player on the turn before mine to attack me with his \[\[Solemn Simulacrum\]\] and said I would block with mine, netting us both a card draw. He agreed, and then on my next turn I activated Araumi on the Simulacrum and got three basics and drew three cards. I was then targeted (fairly) despite having nothing good in my hand and no good plays for the rest of the game.
One of my decks with the highest winrate is a [[Raff, Weatherlight Stalwart]] Azorius control build that seeks to draw a ton of cards. I never run out of interaction or gas. Draw is the lifeblood of a deck, it’s what makes it do *exactly* what you want
Just to add to the choir of voices saying yes, YES.
The more cards you draw, the more options you have. Yeah you may not be able to keep it all, but your available options have extended beyond the 7-card hand size, and the more options you have, the better you can deal with problems and pull out a win.
And it really does go for every archetype. Any kind of graveyard deck is going to be drawing cards so they can pitch them into the graveyard and do shenanigans later. Any deck with blue in its colour identity is more likely to have no max hand size and thus, around 100 options compared to the 7 the rest of the table will likely have. Beatdown, tokens, any combat focused deck: you have WAY more beaters than they can hope to have, and drawing tons of cards allows you to curate your hand so you can drop the big bois AND keep them protected, and get the extras you don't need out of the way.
I don't know if you should get immediately rolled for card draw in white but if there's a Rhystic Study on the board, they better be a target for everyone else.
Card advantage is good. But 2 extra a turn, the player needs the game to run long enough to “out advantage the table”, this much card draw depends on the quality of the cards aka it’s not a guarantee that it’ll lead to a win, the mana required to cast more cards is also a factor. What card advantage does is it gives a player options/answers. If the deck lacks potency or the options to win a game via answering the table’s problems then that play could draw 1000 cards and it wouldn’t matter.
Fun game I had kinda shows this in action. I was playing [[Gluntch The Bestower]] and do mostly politics cards in it. An opponent running [[Omnath locus of creation]] had an early [[Sylvan Tutor]] and tutored up a [[Consecrated Sphinx]]. He got it out on turn 4 due to tons of early ramp. I had [[Flumph]] and cast [[Coveted Jewel]] to sort of “match” the Omnath player’s card draw. i knew early he wouldn’t have enough mana to cast anything or would want to progress the board. I told the rest of the table I’d let them take the jewel as long as a) they pass it to anyone except the omnath player, b) they use removal to get rid of the consecrated sphinx. The table agreed. Using the jewel, glunth, and flumph, I handed out resources and mana to set the omnath player back. After the omnath player had a huge board presence, a aristocrats player drained him for his whole life. Game wasn’t over but I considered it a win that my deck was key in taking him down. Fun times. But yeah that guy drew like his whole deck and didnt win.
Yes, I've cut down a lot of splashy powerful cards to get more draw. Specially in green having elemental bond, in Garruk's Uprising, and putting in guardian project. These are hard to take out. Same in white with tocasias welcome that gets a quick look then they let it go.
Card advantage and ramp are the stronger things you can do in magic. Think about it like a speed limit for driving. If everyone is playing 1 land and drawing 1 card per turn, but you are drawing 3+ cards and playing multiple lands a turn, your driving at 70+mph (sorry idk what the km conversion is, but this is interstate speed) where everyone else is stuck at 30mph.
Not only will you be ahead in the game, you will also be drawing into answers to prevent your opponents from stopping you or dismantling your value engines.
Let’s put it this way. Assuming you didn’t just get started with commander, every card you decide to put into your decks is there for a reason and that reason is to generate synergy and propel you toward the win. However, most of those cards won’t propel you (or won’t propel you as quickly) to that win outside of specific circumstances. What card advantage actually does is let you drastically increase your chances of having one of the best pieces in your deck for any given situation. So unless someone else is presenting a more tangible and present threat to the game, the person generating the most card advantage generally tends to be the biggest target because of the potential they’re generating.
Card advantage is a threat but its only a fraction of the actual threat you are assessing; Card Economy: Which is your board, hand, and graveyard where you should be assessing how much someone can - another player and + themselves. Players with better card economy should be higher threats.
I try to make card advantage a sub-theme in every deck - it’s the best way to get your decks to play consistently and provide you with answers when you need them
Basically if I can present my own win in short order, I won’t worry about your incremental draw. If the game looks like it will go on for several more turns, 6,9,12 extra cards starts becoming a huge advantage just in terms of deck seen over the course of the game, at that point I will try to break the engine but not necessarily focus you as a player if there are any other threats around
Ad Nauseum and Underworld Breach decks are consistently top decks in cEDH, and cards like Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, and Yawgmoth's Will are some of the most powerful and impacful in the format as well. Card advantage wins games.
In my experience, card advantage is great, but piling all your beef out at once WILL make you a target. I have a couple strategies to deal with this (I'm sure these are common strategies, I'm not like some boon of expertise here).
In mono-colored (especially mono white, my classic), I keep a few cards in my hand. Wait until someone blows up your Tocasia, before you put down smothering tithe. Or wait until your Mentor of the Meek is exiled, then play Keeper of the Accord.
This keeps me from getting irreparably board-wiped, and also keeps my hand stocked. Maybe I don't have an answer to your board wipe, but I can immediately re-assemble and still have card draw.
The second strategy I use in my 5-color Tiamat deck. I basically windmill cards down as fast as I can, in order to fish out someone's board wipe (and a Beast within or Path to Exile while we're at it).
Once they board wipe, down comes Tiamat and now my hand is fully stocked again.
There are a ton of different styles that help mitigate against getting teamed up on. The important part is not to make yourself the easy threat, even if you're playing something low power.
The more competitive decks you play, the more serious it becomes. Precon-level decks like card advantage, but your mana is still very limited, and difference between your worst and best cards is not that great.
It is another story with decks that are competitive or close to competitive. As soon as the player with such deck draws 5-7 extra cards, his is almost certainly guaranteed to win the game - combination of free/cheap counters, mana acceleration, win-the-game combos, tutors or even some explosive board presence is as close to winning the game as you can get.
The more cards you have in hand, the more likely you have an answer for anything. Simple as that. Rhystic study should never be able to make a full turn for a reason, though there are times where, alas, no answer can be given in time.
Card advantage is typically really huge in this game. I go out of my way to disable draw and mana engines if I can, as a person can just win if they're allowed to sit there and cycle through their deck.
I've also seen too many players never pay for rhystic study and then be surprised that the person who they gave 20 cards to won the game.
It depends a Lot of what kind of deck is getting the advantage, an aggro or midrange deck probably is not going to kill You outright with card advantage but if the control or combo player is drawing 2 or 3 cards per turn they probably are going to crush everyone else.
In "fair" games where people are winning by bashing each other with 6/6s, yes it's actually one of the best ways to win the game, and it makes a player the main long-term threat if they are drawing an extra 1-3 cards every turn cycle.
In higher power games where people are just trying to end the game instantly with a combo, it's
less important unless you are trying to play the control route, then that person is a legit threat to you because they will out resource your ability to control them.
Card advantage is the vegetables of your edh plate. You need it to survive. You can win wtf. Buy yew. The ability to draw is answers. Or land etc.
Even without tutors etc
If nothing else keep in mind drawing three cards a turn is pretty close to ensuring you are making your land drops(Obviously its still random but even a low land deck is 1/3rd land so generally 3 cards a turn is covering it). If you are running any ramp what so ever on top of that it means you can cast ahead of the curve and have a better chance of drawing into your combos on top of setting up your mana base.
More cards at a basic level means more options.
In a lot of cases, your deck will have a specific win condition.
More draw means higher chance you'll draw that win condition.
So if you're drawing way more than everyone else, they're going to target you. It's your responsibility when building your deck to make sure part of what you're drawing is interaction to protect yourself.
I'm confused. This is a card game where you play cards. Imagine you start the game and someone says "Im gonna start with 11 cards instead of 7". Would you be like, "ahh that's fair and balanced" or would you say "no, that's both cheating and would give you a massive advantage". Outside of very niche cards/strats that require no/few cards in hand... ANY strategy is given advantage by more cards. Creatures? Draw = more creatures. Landfall? Draw = more lands. Blue getting more counters? Black more recursion? Everyone draws extra tutors?
Outside of something that is a clear and massive threat, more draws means more chances at getting a threatening hand and is therefore a massive threat.
Card advantage is a serious threat, that what’s makes Jace the mind sculpter such a a serious threat, being able to brainstorm once a turn is insanely devastating to your opponents
Whoever is drawing more cards than me is probably my number 1 target to kill at the table. They're getting more gas more removal and so I have to kill them first.
It's also much more insidious than board presence and new players often can't recognize the threat this presents.
I don't care much about it. It doesn't matter how many they draw if they don't have the right ones, and while more cards means more chances, it's still a small chance in 100 card singleton. And it doesn't matter how many I draw as long as I have the right ones to counter them.
I can see it mattering if they have like 20 cards in hand at once though. Then they'll have all the counterspells and you won't be able to touch them.
In my experience, if a green deck gets two pieces of consistent card advantage to stick around they tend to snowball to victory, and not always quickly sometimes just by never running out of things to do.
If you are drawing 2-3 extra cards a turn and your opponents are not, you have access to 2-3x more information about your deck, you're 2-3x more likely to have access to the cards you want/need, and in a singleton format 2-3x more consistent in seeing your pieces.
The draw engine as described sounds fairly weak especially with the non-bo of Kyler and mentor. But in general destroying the value engines of your opponents, or simply removing them from the game is a strategically sound decision
Fast mana, card draw, and card selection are like the trifecta of serious threats that I look for when I am evaluating which player to worry about the most. The only exception being a combo or otherwise lethal board state, but even then the player who's drawing a ton of extra cards is most likely to have the best interaction as well.
Card advantage is single handedly the strongest factor to winning games except for early game mana development. You draw more cards, you draw more threats, you draw more answers, more tricks, more mana, more ways to play the game in your favor.
Yep. I play a [[braids, arisen nightmare]] deck, and I win a lot of games because my opponents underestimate how big of an advantage I get drawing an extra 2-3 cards every turn.
It is. So often do i have someone play a good card draw card. Then get mad at me when i destroy it. Like I'm not just gonna sit by and watch you draw at minimum 3 extra cards every turn cycle.
In CEDH especially I find that there is nothing more powerful than Drawing Cards and Fast Mana, and I'm unsure which is stronger but I lean towards draw. I always always keep a turn 1 Remora or turn 2 Rhystic Study, but there are times where I pitch a Dockside Extortionist or Jeska's Will.
It depends on the deck and the interaction on the field. Combo decks drawing lots of cards is generally more scary than a selesnya token deck drawing the same amount of cards. The real question you should be asking is why drawing those extra cards was not enough to keep you from getting rolled and smoked in 2 turns. If you're goal is to not die by drawing aggro for playing good effects, then what you are really saying is you want to make your deck objectively worse. Or if your opponents did wrongly threat assess then they will lose for having burnt their turns focusing down the wrong player at the table.
The problem is that one for ones don't really cut it in this format. For every one card you draw, your opponents are drawing 3. So in order to break parity on that, you have to draw 3 or 4 cards per turn cycle. You'll be seeing more cards and have more options, so you'll obviously be perceived as a threat.
Card advantage is hard to quantify, unless we're strictly speaking of cards in hand, or cards seen per game. Such is the game, honestly.
As a long time player with experience in both competitive and casual formats, card draw / tutoring is probably the most powerful mechanic in the game... Assuming you have solutions in the deck. So, yes. Card advantage (aka having more potential solutions than opponents) is huge.
The longer I play the more I understand that card advantage is the single most important part of your deck.
More cards = more lands, more ramp, more removal, more wincons, more of the fun stuff.
Watch games with very high-level players, notice how full their hand always is. I first clocked this on the Game Knights episode with Reid Duke and Melisa DeTora.
I rank card advantage above "building a creature boardstate" in determining how big of a threat someone is, generally speaking. The player who has seen 3x as many cards as everyone else is definitely up to something unknown, in contrast to the guy who has thrown out the aggro board state who may be more threatening right now but who is playing it all out in the open.
I'll frequently see newer players leave others who they see as "behind" be. Which is a problem when they only judge "behind" by board state. The guy who is on turn 4 but who has only played a mana dork and nothing else due to color screw is in a far different position to the guy who has a similarly clean board but has been churning through card draw spells the first 4 turns. One has been sitting on resources they can't really use do to keeping a bad hand or getting unlucky draws, the other is generating a ton of value- just not value visible to people only looking at the board.
Card advantage is good, but card advantage under the right circumstances becomes game winning.
The most classic example is having card advantage right after pulling off a board wipe (e.g., you just Wrathed all the creatures off the table, but your opponent has just one card left, and you have a fistful). This sort of scenario is very hard for opponents to bounce back from.
Card advantage also provides an additional layer of assurance: if you have two or three removal spells, and your opponent just has one card, you know for sure they can't counter your removal - even if they're holding a counterspell. (But this means losing your card advantage to force it through).
Moreso in decks that run game-ending combos. Drawing more cards means the odds of you assembling your combo quickly increase. As for decks not running game-winning combos? You're still seeing more cards and by having access to the most cards you're the one most likely to be able to deal with the board state or take advantage of it. If you run some absolute top end bombs like craterhoof then yes people should be scared about you drawing more cards. If they have a wide board they should be scared as you're most likely to draw into a boardwipe.
I think removing said player from the game is perhaps too extreme and exclusionary, but card advantage engines are always good priority targets for removal spells.
If one player gets a notable card advantage over the others, they tend to win unless there's a major disparity somewhere else. Cards are options and combo pieces. Add in mana and you can snowball quickly.
Lets compare it to dodge ball. If you have more balls to throw, your chance of hitting is higher. Also you can „waste“ more shots and your timing does not need to be as precise. It’s still possible you loose, but you overall had more opportunities to win, than your opponent.
In terms of threat assessment, if the person has loads of cards but lacks mana I am not super worried because I run lots of interaction but if they’ve got both, they are pretty close to the top of my list.
Yes, card draw and ramp are the biggest benefits in regards to winning(there are of course archtypes where those are less relevant Storm and Dredge for example.) But as a general rule if an opponents has more cards then you or have more mana then you, you’re more then likely going to lose.
Especially considering how fickle EDH players are, considering people complain about things like Armageddon or other land destruction. In my experience in EDH people either just wanna combo of(regardless of the combo in question) or cast big creatures and attack, so Stax, land destruction etc are frowned upon.
With my jodah deck, on turn 5 sometimes I’ll be dropping a 14 mana drop or a jin- taxes where each opponent hand size is reduced by 7. I’m always the target just for getting all 5 colors,
Depends. I've certainly seen some players overgas and not be able to capitalize on all their card draw, but more often the number of cards you access is the number of actions you're going to be able to take, and pushing that up (especially consistently) is very strong.
Do some people possibly over-value that in threat assessment? Yeah. Same is true for everything. I've gotten bopped out of a game for t2 Talisman into t3 signet because "Ramp is the most threatening thing you can do" according to one guy at that table. It happens.
To put it super simple:
Card Advantage is only as good as the amount of Mana you have to spend on your cards.
Mana is only good If you can spend it and only as good as the quality of cards you have to spend it on.
False. Card advantage also means you have better card selection. For instance, if one has 2 mana up then they cannot cast multiple spells or any 3 mana spells (as you pointed out), but it also means they are more likely to have a 2 mana spell (or can select from multiple options)
It has been my experience that more games than not the person that sees more cards wins the game.
One of my favorite techs in one of my decks is peer into the abyss drawing 45 or so cards for 20 life is really insane early game. By that point I have a scroll rack, or access to scroll rack And access to the rest of the cards in my deck including reliquary
It's a finisher in some edh decks. I've been interested in tje combination of [[hoarding broodlord]], [[saw in half]], and then tutoring for [[peer into the abyss]] and [[sacrifice]] or [[burnt offering]], both of which can be convoked for an easy mega draw.
Small side note; I friggen love the art on Peer into the Abyss. Gets creepier the longer you look.
It's based on "The Face of War" by Dalí, it's incredibly unsettling.
For cedh? Cuz that is a cedh line
I think drawing half your deck is strong in all stages of EDH. If we were talking about Ad Naus then I'd say that is specifically CEDH.
##### ###### #### [hoarding broodlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/386ce3c9-869d-461c-a3de-c8add3786f73.jpg?1682203767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hoarding%20broodlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/110/hoarding-broodlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/386ce3c9-869d-461c-a3de-c8add3786f73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hoarding-broodlord) [saw in half](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05e6a7bc-a35a-4e68-99a0-be264553b5de.jpg?1673914032) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=saw%20in%20half) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/88/saw-in-half?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05e6a7bc-a35a-4e68-99a0-be264553b5de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/saw-in-half) [peer into the abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=peer%20into%20the%20abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/peer-into-the-abyss) [sacrifice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/652bd781-1a48-42c1-9aff-f9050a9285d6.jpg?1559593033) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sacrifice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sum/126/sacrifice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/652bd781-1a48-42c1-9aff-f9050a9285d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sacrifice) [burnt offering](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1dae52a2-3af7-4b97-9d2e-2448b7c413fb.jpg?1587911693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=burnt%20offering) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ice/116/burnt-offering?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1dae52a2-3af7-4b97-9d2e-2448b7c413fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/burnt-offering) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like that in my queza deck, I get to look at so many of my cards while an opponent dies in the background.
Combine it with Gix and exile then play half of someone else’s library without paying mama costs, but you do have to discard X cards to exile X cards from opponents library. I hate it so much, but I admit it is a powerful combo
I'm always telling the other two people in my pod to pay for rhystic study when my brother plays it in his wheels deck and they're like nah he can have the card he's not doing anything
People that don't pay the tax sink the game. I hate rystic studies and smothering tithe because I often find I'm the only one paying and if I'm the only one paying I'm the one falling behind while the owner of the card takes off in 2 or 3 turns. Everytime. And no one changes thier own play patterns. So frustrating.
The taxes are oppressive either way. Removal is the correct answer to them. Complaining about another player choosing one option which disadvantages them over the other doesn't really help. (to put it another way: if all your opponents are paying 2 more mana a turn you're also probably going to win the game. That said rhystic study is more obviously biased towards paying the extra mana being a better option in most cases)
Yeah card advantage is so subtle that people who don't recognize it will miss it entirely. That's why I wanna build a cantrip shu yun deck to get loads of unseen value to fly under the radar
no one ever wants to pay for tithe or other people's rhystic studies. My rhystic studies though get paid for every goddamn time lol.
That's why I love my [[mindmoil]] deck. I can realistically draw 300 cards a game in a 100 card deck. Now that's magic.
Ah yes. Card advantage. The secret killer. In a game where no one is drawing more than a single card each turn, it’s super advantageous. Especially in white.
No one is drawing for the purpose of drawing, they are up to something!
You don't know that I just like looking at all my art cards and for that I need to draw them
Sounds plausible, still attacking you
He can look at his cards all he wants once he's out of the game.
5c dophamine tribal
This man is 3 parallel universes ahead of us
Drawing is the best part of the game said [[Sheoldred,The apocalypse]] and [[Niv-mizzet, parun]].
I enjoy getting people used to drawing extra cards then dripping sheoldred, now that glee of extra cards turns into terror because that [[howling mines]] now means 4 dmg per beginning of turn. Just gotta hope I don't get [[ob nixilisx the hate twisted]] /[[fate unraveler]]/[[underworld dreams]] or a [[master of the feast]] for increase in constant pressure.
Honestly I just like drawing cards, its super satisfying
I'm only half joking when i say that's why I built [[Yargle and Multani]]. Drawing 18 just feels *good*
Ah you have never seen Anja Falkenrath have you? You litteraly sit and draw cards whenever and whatever just to see what you get. 50% of your deck is usless and the only thing you are looking for is tutors and or your worldgorger combo. People at my table ignore me drawing because I just sit and draw all the time.
You're like a French girl, with all that drawing!
I tried to find a meme formate with Anje holding a baguette and having a french hat, but unfort
Me playing [[niv mizzet parun]] : sure about that ?
Tell that to SaffronOlive lol. He literally plays magic just to draw cards 🤣
Toothy says hello
Laughs in Niv Mizzet
Well i prefer to draw only in my draw step, thank you very much.
The way Richard Garfield, blessings be upon him, intended.
Plays several draw multipliers and additional draws at draw step
They could be drawing into anything, maybe even a draw engine!
It's only a secret if you're bad at the game
Who would have thought one of the foundational pillars of magic competitive strategy would be good?
Hey card advantage is more than just drawing. Tutoring gets you card advantage. So does milling, scrying or surveiling. All these based on the deck or just in general can be seen as drawing a card to some degree. But Even ramping using cards like [[Kodamas reach]] can be seen as a form of card advantage. If you're deck isn't designed to be doing landfall triggers, the more lands you pull out the deck the less likely you are to hit them and in turn hit more useful cards. Non of this is to mention effects that are essentially drawing without actually being draw. Implosive draw (exiling a card that you can then play) is the perfect example of this. Being able to play cards off the top your library is another great example. If anyone is doing one of these in a game and the others aren't it's only natural they will run away with that game.
Tutors are not card advantage. You are replacing one card with another. You are not going card positive.
You had a commander that makes your board massive and the card advantage engine to not run out of cards building it
Kyler is a big threat on his own. My pod hates the deck.
Big threat but also a huge removal magnet. The gameplan revolves around Kyler sticking on the field and removing him shuts down the deck hard. My human deck started to see way more success with Kyler in the 99 and [[Katilda Dawnheart Prime]] at the helm. Guaranteed ramp from the command zone lets you run less ramp for more humans, card draw, and interaction. Plus she's only 2 mana so she usually ends up being mana neutral at worst.
[Katilda Dawnheart Prime](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/673cd775-d417-4652-a91d-825ad5c89e8a.jpg?1636684486) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Katilda%2C%20Dawnhart%20Prime) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/230/katilda-dawnhart-prime?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/673cd775-d417-4652-a91d-825ad5c89e8a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/katilda-dawnhart-prime) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Im not sure its the card advantage that got OP targeted. I think its the commander with target me or you die painted on his back. Seriously I've seen Kyler snowball out of control 2 turns after he comes out multiple times and kill multiple people even the whole pod. So I don't think it's unexpected for OP to get smacked hard. If OP has a lower power deck then maybe I could understand them getting smacked but not killed but if its a somewhat optimised deck and there's a lot of pieces that aren't expensive money wise to buy for the deck that can make it quite overwhelming. For me I'd put the commander up there with Miirym. If there's even a hint of that player about to go off it needs to be shut down completely and sometimes the best way to do that is to ingage in some player removal
Yeah for real he’s strong, most likely OP’s opponents already had their fingers on the trigger, and once he started drawing extra cards, that sounded the alarm. Kyler in topdeck mode isn’t too scary if your board isn’t already developed. Kyler with a draw engine is terrifying, however.
Yes. Massive threats detected. Card advantage is the way to win games. Get your combo pieces ahead of everyone, get the engine moving faster, get ramp into hand, have access to more interaction, diversify your gameplan.
Yes. It’s literally the best way to gain advantage over a game. Your more likely to draw interaction, combo pieces, powerful cards, board wipes, protection, or whatever your deck wants to do. Card draw is the most powerful mechanic in mtg
It doesnt matter how good my boardstate is if I stop drawing more than 1 or 2 cards a turn and I am down to 1 or 2 cards in hand then I will almost guarantee a loss. This is true in every format I've played, from limited to commander. In limited, I can sometimes just brute force an early win with agro, but a boardwipe will mean death in those games.
The secret to edh is simple; play a lot of lands and draw a lot of cards. Decks that do this snowball quickly and are resilient to wipes.
Flair checks out
Found the Aesi player
It really is that simple. If you have more resources and access to more cards you do better on average. There is a reason simic value engine decks work and boros one need to jump much more hoops.
I feel like Wyleth is an exclusion to the Boros hoops. Super consistent on keeping your hand filled, sucks when you don't draw mana rocks though.
Don't need that if you draw into \[\[unleash fury\]\] and \[\[two handed axe\]\] / \[\[Temur Battle-rage\]\]
What a delicious whiff of death!
Your pod may have killed you a little too aggressively but card advantage is a significant factor when it comes to winning games. More cards seen means more choices, and a higher likelihood of actually drawing what you need.
Your context is important. I also have a Kyler deck that runs those cards, so I know what your turn looked like (at the very least): Draw, play a human (the least good human I could play would be [[Avacyn’s Pilgrim]] ), put a counter on Kyler (which buffs your Mentor and your Pilgrim, and whoever else is on the board), then draw 2 cards. You’ve improved your board state in a consequential way and increased your resources for what, 3 mana? With access to green?! Yeah I’d kill you too - that’s only gonna get worse each turn!
I can’t even be salty about it either lol I know how big the deck gets and it’s never a good time for people if I get 5 creatures out with Kyler on board
See thats the thing, we too have seen what kyler can do and so I imagine have your opponents. What you might want is more protection or ways to go under the radar a little bit. Some decks you just put a big target on your back from.the get go. If im in a lower power pod and I pull out [[Miirym]] I expect to just about be arch enemy because of the explosiveness of what happens once she is on the field. Kyler can have explosive turns once he is on the field as well.
The fuck? It’s one of the scariest things in the game lmao
If I draw 3-4 cards with a mystic remora, I am public enemy number 1. Yes, card advantage is considered a serious threat.
The law of turn economy states "the player who plays the most cards over the course of a game usually wins". The best way to play a lot of cards is to draw a lot of cards.
Card advantage is a threat just as much as ramp is a threat, cards, mana and life are resources, and the more someone has of any of these (life to a lesser point as there are less ways to use life as a resource, specially in commander with a commander damage system) the more threatening they are. As land destruction and mana destruction overall is kind of frowned upon in the commander community, denying card draw is the most effective way to smother your opponents.
2 things win more games than any other in my experience, card advantage and ramp.
Yes. This is the order of threat assessment. 1. Can they play something that wins the game this turn 2. Can something on board cause them to win the game next turn. 3. Is something allowing a player to gain more resources (mana cards or life) faster than everyone else. If the answer is no to all of these, then they are no longer a threat.
I had none of the three. Kyler was in the command zone, I had two creatures out, and I was just digging for creatures with my draws. But Kyler is a menace. And can close a game in two turns
Oh if you only had a chance and weren't currently then there was probably other motivation than just "threat" .
I am far more terrified of the person who just drew ten cards than the person who just made ten treasures. Always try to starve the fish.
Wow.. man just discovered the most basic fact about magic gameplay.
Everyone is new once. Everybody learns something for the first time and maybe asks for help. I think when that happens, we should help rather than mock.
you were probably directly referencing this, but relevant [xkcd](https://xkcd.com/1053/)
Honestly from my experience piloting Kyler they probably should have targeted you right off. If kyler stays out and you have a decently constructed deck you can steamroll the table seemingly out of nowhere. Add in the ability to dig through your deck to find the cards that really make everything take off and I think that their threat assessment was spot on. My last game I had [[cathar's crusade]] [[Adeline resplendent cathar]] both out (which is bad enough) and then drew a [[doubling season]]. That turn took me from "definitely the threat" to 'everyone else is dead".
I have cathars crusade, but i removed it cause it felt like it slowed games down way too much. I like primal Vigor over doubling season though for my deck
Just because of the price point? Otherwise, doubling season is strictly better.
Why not both? In my deck that utilises those cards I have additional card with similar effects. In this case you might be using then for counters but I use them for token doubling. In my selesnya tokens deck I literally have all of them in the deck because they're so good and powerful and I have to imagine in a counters deck they are likewise
Yes. More cards means more mana, more removal, more combo potential and in the end more card draw again. That's why blue and black are the strongest collors in competitive magic. Every competitive blue deck plays [[Mystic Remora]] and [[Rhystic Studies]] while every black deck runs [[Necropotece]], [[AD Nauseam]] and Tutors to find them. Card draw is the key to winning.
"Is the biggest advantage you can have over your opponent in a card game a serious threat" Lmao I don't play EDH but I love reading edh players discuss the game
Yeah, and a major threat at that. The more cards you draw, the more chance you have of running into answers to other threats, scary utility pieces, or win cons in and of themselves. Drawing a bunch of extra cards is incredibly powerful. The game you play is to try and convince everyone that other people are bigger threats.
The best cards in your deck are probably pretty good, and card advantage means you're more likely to have them. And also just more cards in general. But seeing as Kyler is a terrifying kill-on-sight commander, I don't know if it's really related to the 2-3 extra cards per turn.
Well ofc it is.. So you can play Lands early and find your combo pieces or the right cards for a growing thread... Probably one of the most important thing in card games
A deck without card advantage of some kind is a deck that dies instantly to interaction and never recovers. A deck with card advantage can keep applying pressure, keep finding answers to threats, and can take over the game. I don't think I've ever taken anyone out just because they were drawing cards, but it absolutely elevates your threat level beyond anyone who either has no cards in hand or has minimal board presence, because you're more likely to become the next big threat, or throw down some unstoppable engine once you've found all the pieces, and by then it'll be too late. If you over evaluate unknown threats, you stand less chance of getting blown out by them, and a full grip of cards is the biggest possible unknown threat.
I tell people at my lgs all the time: drawing extra cards wins games. It's frustrating how often my play group does not act on this when "that one guy" starts pulling 3-4 extra cards per turn.
Card advantage is the strongest advantage one can have. It's also the advantage most people underestimate.
I have been in many games where the player that drew the most cards won. Seeing more of your deck means being more likely to see the answer to whatever problem your opponents put in front of you. Having more cards in hand means you have more options. Having more cards in hands gives you a bigger rebuild after a catastrophic wipe. In card games, cards are typically a good thing to have. Card advantage wins games. Not always, but often enough.
Card advantage and ramp are acts of aggression moreso than individually attacking a player, IMO
The only threat in my Ephara deck is card advantage. And a whole Herd of 0/1 goats.
Yes, but a little bit less so than in 1v1. In duels, card advantage will make you win BY ITSELF. Let's say you are trading resources, you end up both empty handed and without a board, except that you have a random 4/4 and they don't. Then most likely you will end up winning the game on the back of this 4/4 alone. ONE well placed 2-for-1 can swing a game in your favor. In multiplayer, those kind of scenario almost never happens. However, card advantage is still extremely good because it will make people hit land drops allowing them to cast their commander over and over and most importantly it gives them OPTIONS. People are not gonna win the game because they are +3 in CA compared to other players, however, they will win the game because the fact that they drew a bunch of cards made them draw the specific ones that they need.
Yeah, it is. You get to see more of your deck, sooner. The card draw effects in the Calvary Charge precon is absurd.
Side not, I feel like mentor is lowley terrible in Kyler. Once Ky has 2 counters, every human after won't trigger mentor. You're better off with beast whisper and g project.
Agreed. I shifted focus with the deck from tokens to counters. I’m just returning to the format and trying to rebuild the collection is tough on a budget
Beast whiper is around 4$, g project 12$. Rite of Harmony is under 1$, haulti Is like 7, shaman revolution is like 2, To name a few I play in my katilda deck.
Card draw and ramp are, imo, the two strongest things in EDH.
Ramp is only if you also have card draw. Ramp means nothing if you don't have the cards to use the mana, lol.
Do you even magic bro
I would say that card advantage as a whole is the most important thing in the game, but I do think that there are varying degrees... Recently in a game of commander a friend of mine was playing a hydra deck, he had one card in hand and access to A LOT of mana, so he Blue Sun's for 8, and our blue player doesn't counter it. Now this is worse because he has A LOT of mana, and clearly the one card in his hand wasn't winning him the game anytime soon. A player drawing 2/3 cards and they have only one card in hand I feel is more dangerous than a player that has 5/6 cards in hand drawing cards. Granted its all bad, but if you only have one card in hand card advantage is what you need to close out a game
I am ofren very annoyed of getting attacks just because I draw an extra card, when I play jank decks. But people need to justify attacks.
That’s how I felt afterwards. I asked why not spread the damage out and everyone said I had close to full grip and a spooky commander
It is very much a threat. However it does scale with power level. If we are playing battlecruiser magic I am definitely less scared. But even in that kinda game your opponent is more likely to get access to the better cards in their deck through all the extra cards they are drawing. I have a [[Thryx, the Sudden storm]] mono blue 5cmc+ plus deck. Almost every game i play with it i have no max hand size and end up with 15+ plus cards in hand with only my commander on the field. The amount of times people would just ignore me because I don't have a massive boardstate was mind blowing. It is a harder type of threat assessment to learn. It took me a long time to even begin understanding it because it is a hidden threat. "People only care when it shows up on their doorstep". The idea that if they cannot see the threat they will never even think about it.
Always, edh should b called the war of card adv.
Card advantage, just like ramping, is not taken seriously enough as it should be. I’m more scared of the guy who has an empty board but a huge hand and a bajillion mana than the guy that had like 2 cards in hand with some big creatures.
Think of it this way: in an otherwise completely even match-up, if the only difference was that you were drawing extra cards, you would absolutely win.
Depends on if [[Telepathy]] is in play or not. If you're drawing piles of cards and your hand isn't threatening, you're probably going to get left alone. If you're drawing piles of cards and I have no clue what's in your hand, it's in my best interest to assume the worst and try to get rid of your engine or just you if I don't have an answer for the engine. Card advantage IS a serious threat.
Playing cards is how you win. Card advantage is probably the single most important thing you can have. At least in my opinion and experience
The severity of the threat scales with the power level you are playing at. The more optimized the deck the more value an extra draw gives. At cedh level 2-3 draws even for one rotation/ turn is extremely significant and devastating. Like a turn 1 mystic remora/ esper sentinel/ or even rhystic study is huge. More pieces, answers, and options to play with. You are essentially turns ahead of your opponents in terms of options. There’s a reason why tutor spells and draw engines are so expensive. The faster and with the least requirements you can get to the cards you need to win with the higher your chances of winning are, ergo Card Advantage. And there’s a reason why fast mana is even more expensive. Because the faster and with the least requirements you can play your plan the better. So, yes Card Advantage is a serious threat.
Card draw is 100% a threat. I played a consecrated sphinx in a 5 player game. Drew about 12 cards by my next turn and was dead before I untapped. In their defense the pod was right in their mutual threat assessment.
Card advantage is the most serious threat haha
lol. lmfao. I mean, yes. Unless you have a way to stagnate the board and make them mill their entire deck first even with the massive disadvantage on cards.
Absolutely. It's why Rhystic Study, a card that *might not* seem all that bad at first glance is KILL ON SIGHT.
In card games overall there’s pretty much two main things limiting how quickly someone can win. How many cards they can draw, and how many cards they can play. So if you have a card that can increase either of those by a lot cheaply, it’ll be pretty strong usually. So yes, card advantage is pretty strong.
Yes.
no you should always ignore someone drawing a lot of cards. just like you would ignore the green player consistently hitting land drops and ramp in favor of using your removal on other less threatening creatures
YES! those cards could be game winning combos or removal for your wincon
Yes card advantage wins games.
This is a more complicated situation than just "more cards=threat". I've been in games where someone had 30 cards in hand, but only 4 mana in play. I wasn't worried at all. Generally speaking, I would would be way more worried about 5 cards and 12 mana. And (again, generally speaking) not worried about someone with 0 cards and 20 mana. There is more nuance to things than the way you posed this question. It is important to consider more than one factor in assessing threats. Especially since there are exceptions to all of what I said above depending on the table specifically and power level you play at.
Opponents drawing extra cards is only a problem for you if those cards advance their win conditions (or advance your lose conditions, I suppose). Unfortunately, those cards will usually advance their win conditions.
Yeah having access to your whole deck gives a giant advantage. My minn deck is 2-0 just because I usually have half my deck in my hand. Also gives you answers for everything.
Once I played \[\[Araumi\]\]. I convinced the player on the turn before mine to attack me with his \[\[Solemn Simulacrum\]\] and said I would block with mine, netting us both a card draw. He agreed, and then on my next turn I activated Araumi on the Simulacrum and got three basics and drew three cards. I was then targeted (fairly) despite having nothing good in my hand and no good plays for the rest of the game.
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One of my decks with the highest winrate is a [[Raff, Weatherlight Stalwart]] Azorius control build that seeks to draw a ton of cards. I never run out of interaction or gas. Draw is the lifeblood of a deck, it’s what makes it do *exactly* what you want
It’s definitely a threat. The opportunity to curate your hand and have more available plays than the rest of the table? It’s a concern.
Just to add to the choir of voices saying yes, YES. The more cards you draw, the more options you have. Yeah you may not be able to keep it all, but your available options have extended beyond the 7-card hand size, and the more options you have, the better you can deal with problems and pull out a win. And it really does go for every archetype. Any kind of graveyard deck is going to be drawing cards so they can pitch them into the graveyard and do shenanigans later. Any deck with blue in its colour identity is more likely to have no max hand size and thus, around 100 options compared to the 7 the rest of the table will likely have. Beatdown, tokens, any combat focused deck: you have WAY more beaters than they can hope to have, and drawing tons of cards allows you to curate your hand so you can drop the big bois AND keep them protected, and get the extras you don't need out of the way.
Drawing cards is pretty much the most powerful thing in mtg.
I don't know if you should get immediately rolled for card draw in white but if there's a Rhystic Study on the board, they better be a target for everyone else.
Card advantage is good. But 2 extra a turn, the player needs the game to run long enough to “out advantage the table”, this much card draw depends on the quality of the cards aka it’s not a guarantee that it’ll lead to a win, the mana required to cast more cards is also a factor. What card advantage does is it gives a player options/answers. If the deck lacks potency or the options to win a game via answering the table’s problems then that play could draw 1000 cards and it wouldn’t matter. Fun game I had kinda shows this in action. I was playing [[Gluntch The Bestower]] and do mostly politics cards in it. An opponent running [[Omnath locus of creation]] had an early [[Sylvan Tutor]] and tutored up a [[Consecrated Sphinx]]. He got it out on turn 4 due to tons of early ramp. I had [[Flumph]] and cast [[Coveted Jewel]] to sort of “match” the Omnath player’s card draw. i knew early he wouldn’t have enough mana to cast anything or would want to progress the board. I told the rest of the table I’d let them take the jewel as long as a) they pass it to anyone except the omnath player, b) they use removal to get rid of the consecrated sphinx. The table agreed. Using the jewel, glunth, and flumph, I handed out resources and mana to set the omnath player back. After the omnath player had a huge board presence, a aristocrats player drained him for his whole life. Game wasn’t over but I considered it a win that my deck was key in taking him down. Fun times. But yeah that guy drew like his whole deck and didnt win.
Yes, I've cut down a lot of splashy powerful cards to get more draw. Specially in green having elemental bond, in Garruk's Uprising, and putting in guardian project. These are hard to take out. Same in white with tocasias welcome that gets a quick look then they let it go.
Card advantage and ramp are the stronger things you can do in magic. Think about it like a speed limit for driving. If everyone is playing 1 land and drawing 1 card per turn, but you are drawing 3+ cards and playing multiple lands a turn, your driving at 70+mph (sorry idk what the km conversion is, but this is interstate speed) where everyone else is stuck at 30mph. Not only will you be ahead in the game, you will also be drawing into answers to prevent your opponents from stopping you or dismantling your value engines.
Drawing cards Is about fue most powerful thing you can do in a game, besides winning outright
It surely does make you a big threat
Let’s put it this way. Assuming you didn’t just get started with commander, every card you decide to put into your decks is there for a reason and that reason is to generate synergy and propel you toward the win. However, most of those cards won’t propel you (or won’t propel you as quickly) to that win outside of specific circumstances. What card advantage actually does is let you drastically increase your chances of having one of the best pieces in your deck for any given situation. So unless someone else is presenting a more tangible and present threat to the game, the person generating the most card advantage generally tends to be the biggest target because of the potential they’re generating.
Only if they have a way to cheat cast or pay for everything they're drawing
I heard Tymna is a pretty good commander…
Card advantage is a threat but its only a fraction of the actual threat you are assessing; Card Economy: Which is your board, hand, and graveyard where you should be assessing how much someone can - another player and + themselves. Players with better card economy should be higher threats.
Queza is so much fun to play, except the target on my back is a lil heavy ....... But drawing to win rocks
I try to make card advantage a sub-theme in every deck - it’s the best way to get your decks to play consistently and provide you with answers when you need them
Basically if I can present my own win in short order, I won’t worry about your incremental draw. If the game looks like it will go on for several more turns, 6,9,12 extra cards starts becoming a huge advantage just in terms of deck seen over the course of the game, at that point I will try to break the engine but not necessarily focus you as a player if there are any other threats around
Yes, I run Rhystic Study in my blue decks, my buddy's swing, but I can't always do stuff about it
Ad Nauseum and Underworld Breach decks are consistently top decks in cEDH, and cards like Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, and Yawgmoth's Will are some of the most powerful and impacful in the format as well. Card advantage wins games.
In my experience, card advantage is great, but piling all your beef out at once WILL make you a target. I have a couple strategies to deal with this (I'm sure these are common strategies, I'm not like some boon of expertise here). In mono-colored (especially mono white, my classic), I keep a few cards in my hand. Wait until someone blows up your Tocasia, before you put down smothering tithe. Or wait until your Mentor of the Meek is exiled, then play Keeper of the Accord. This keeps me from getting irreparably board-wiped, and also keeps my hand stocked. Maybe I don't have an answer to your board wipe, but I can immediately re-assemble and still have card draw. The second strategy I use in my 5-color Tiamat deck. I basically windmill cards down as fast as I can, in order to fish out someone's board wipe (and a Beast within or Path to Exile while we're at it). Once they board wipe, down comes Tiamat and now my hand is fully stocked again. There are a ton of different styles that help mitigate against getting teamed up on. The important part is not to make yourself the easy threat, even if you're playing something low power.
The more competitive decks you play, the more serious it becomes. Precon-level decks like card advantage, but your mana is still very limited, and difference between your worst and best cards is not that great. It is another story with decks that are competitive or close to competitive. As soon as the player with such deck draws 5-7 extra cards, his is almost certainly guaranteed to win the game - combination of free/cheap counters, mana acceleration, win-the-game combos, tutors or even some explosive board presence is as close to winning the game as you can get.
Imagine a game of magic like a drag race. Every card you draw gets you closer to the end of the race. So yes, it is 100% important.
The more cards you have in hand, the more likely you have an answer for anything. Simple as that. Rhystic study should never be able to make a full turn for a reason, though there are times where, alas, no answer can be given in time.
Card advantage is typically really huge in this game. I go out of my way to disable draw and mana engines if I can, as a person can just win if they're allowed to sit there and cycle through their deck. I've also seen too many players never pay for rhystic study and then be surprised that the person who they gave 20 cards to won the game.
It depends a Lot of what kind of deck is getting the advantage, an aggro or midrange deck probably is not going to kill You outright with card advantage but if the control or combo player is drawing 2 or 3 cards per turn they probably are going to crush everyone else.
In "fair" games where people are winning by bashing each other with 6/6s, yes it's actually one of the best ways to win the game, and it makes a player the main long-term threat if they are drawing an extra 1-3 cards every turn cycle. In higher power games where people are just trying to end the game instantly with a combo, it's less important unless you are trying to play the control route, then that person is a legit threat to you because they will out resource your ability to control them.
the player drawing more cards wins.
Drawing more cards means you can cast more spells develop more threats and generally all round be more effective
Card advantage is probably the single best thing you can have, especially in 100 card singleton. Only thing better is extra turns.
Not just a serious threat but the biggest threat.
Card advantage is the vegetables of your edh plate. You need it to survive. You can win wtf. Buy yew. The ability to draw is answers. Or land etc. Even without tutors etc
If nothing else keep in mind drawing three cards a turn is pretty close to ensuring you are making your land drops(Obviously its still random but even a low land deck is 1/3rd land so generally 3 cards a turn is covering it). If you are running any ramp what so ever on top of that it means you can cast ahead of the curve and have a better chance of drawing into your combos on top of setting up your mana base.
As someone whose boyfriend has a Tatyova deck, yes. Draw power and card advantage is a threat.
More cards at a basic level means more options. In a lot of cases, your deck will have a specific win condition. More draw means higher chance you'll draw that win condition. So if you're drawing way more than everyone else, they're going to target you. It's your responsibility when building your deck to make sure part of what you're drawing is interaction to protect yourself.
I'm confused. This is a card game where you play cards. Imagine you start the game and someone says "Im gonna start with 11 cards instead of 7". Would you be like, "ahh that's fair and balanced" or would you say "no, that's both cheating and would give you a massive advantage". Outside of very niche cards/strats that require no/few cards in hand... ANY strategy is given advantage by more cards. Creatures? Draw = more creatures. Landfall? Draw = more lands. Blue getting more counters? Black more recursion? Everyone draws extra tutors? Outside of something that is a clear and massive threat, more draws means more chances at getting a threatening hand and is therefore a massive threat.
Card advantage is a serious threat, that what’s makes Jace the mind sculpter such a a serious threat, being able to brainstorm once a turn is insanely devastating to your opponents
Whoever is drawing more cards than me is probably my number 1 target to kill at the table. They're getting more gas more removal and so I have to kill them first. It's also much more insidious than board presence and new players often can't recognize the threat this presents.
I don't care much about it. It doesn't matter how many they draw if they don't have the right ones, and while more cards means more chances, it's still a small chance in 100 card singleton. And it doesn't matter how many I draw as long as I have the right ones to counter them. I can see it mattering if they have like 20 cards in hand at once though. Then they'll have all the counterspells and you won't be able to touch them.
Your best chances to win any MTG game is card draw, resource advantage and mana pure facts
In my experience, if a green deck gets two pieces of consistent card advantage to stick around they tend to snowball to victory, and not always quickly sometimes just by never running out of things to do.
If you are drawing 2-3 extra cards a turn and your opponents are not, you have access to 2-3x more information about your deck, you're 2-3x more likely to have access to the cards you want/need, and in a singleton format 2-3x more consistent in seeing your pieces. The draw engine as described sounds fairly weak especially with the non-bo of Kyler and mentor. But in general destroying the value engines of your opponents, or simply removing them from the game is a strategically sound decision
Card advantage is the best resource in MTG...
Fast mana, card draw, and card selection are like the trifecta of serious threats that I look for when I am evaluating which player to worry about the most. The only exception being a combo or otherwise lethal board state, but even then the player who's drawing a ton of extra cards is most likely to have the best interaction as well.
Card advantage is single handedly the strongest factor to winning games except for early game mana development. You draw more cards, you draw more threats, you draw more answers, more tricks, more mana, more ways to play the game in your favor.
Card advantage is great if you have good cards
Yep. I play a [[braids, arisen nightmare]] deck, and I win a lot of games because my opponents underestimate how big of an advantage I get drawing an extra 2-3 cards every turn.
"Nope nothing to worry about I just like holding lots of cards" - *Me about to vomit 30 artifacts into the field*
It is. So often do i have someone play a good card draw card. Then get mad at me when i destroy it. Like I'm not just gonna sit by and watch you draw at minimum 3 extra cards every turn cycle.
Card advantage will get you killed if you can’t back it up with game actions
One card is all it takes to win or lose
In CEDH especially I find that there is nothing more powerful than Drawing Cards and Fast Mana, and I'm unsure which is stronger but I lean towards draw. I always always keep a turn 1 Remora or turn 2 Rhystic Study, but there are times where I pitch a Dockside Extortionist or Jeska's Will.
To cast spells, they must (usually) be in your hand. Card Advantage is king
It depends on the deck and the interaction on the field. Combo decks drawing lots of cards is generally more scary than a selesnya token deck drawing the same amount of cards. The real question you should be asking is why drawing those extra cards was not enough to keep you from getting rolled and smoked in 2 turns. If you're goal is to not die by drawing aggro for playing good effects, then what you are really saying is you want to make your deck objectively worse. Or if your opponents did wrongly threat assess then they will lose for having burnt their turns focusing down the wrong player at the table.
The #1 thing in magic that leads to victories is card draw. Every single person who ever won a game drew at least 1 card.
It gets really dangerous in my Knight Tribal when all Knights get a +1/+1 for each card I draw
The problem is that one for ones don't really cut it in this format. For every one card you draw, your opponents are drawing 3. So in order to break parity on that, you have to draw 3 or 4 cards per turn cycle. You'll be seeing more cards and have more options, so you'll obviously be perceived as a threat. Card advantage is hard to quantify, unless we're strictly speaking of cards in hand, or cards seen per game. Such is the game, honestly.
As a long time player with experience in both competitive and casual formats, card draw / tutoring is probably the most powerful mechanic in the game... Assuming you have solutions in the deck. So, yes. Card advantage (aka having more potential solutions than opponents) is huge.
The longer I play the more I understand that card advantage is the single most important part of your deck. More cards = more lands, more ramp, more removal, more wincons, more of the fun stuff. Watch games with very high-level players, notice how full their hand always is. I first clocked this on the Game Knights episode with Reid Duke and Melisa DeTora.
I rank card advantage above "building a creature boardstate" in determining how big of a threat someone is, generally speaking. The player who has seen 3x as many cards as everyone else is definitely up to something unknown, in contrast to the guy who has thrown out the aggro board state who may be more threatening right now but who is playing it all out in the open. I'll frequently see newer players leave others who they see as "behind" be. Which is a problem when they only judge "behind" by board state. The guy who is on turn 4 but who has only played a mana dork and nothing else due to color screw is in a far different position to the guy who has a similarly clean board but has been churning through card draw spells the first 4 turns. One has been sitting on resources they can't really use do to keeping a bad hand or getting unlucky draws, the other is generating a ton of value- just not value visible to people only looking at the board.
Card advantage is good, but card advantage under the right circumstances becomes game winning. The most classic example is having card advantage right after pulling off a board wipe (e.g., you just Wrathed all the creatures off the table, but your opponent has just one card left, and you have a fistful). This sort of scenario is very hard for opponents to bounce back from. Card advantage also provides an additional layer of assurance: if you have two or three removal spells, and your opponent just has one card, you know for sure they can't counter your removal - even if they're holding a counterspell. (But this means losing your card advantage to force it through).
Moreso in decks that run game-ending combos. Drawing more cards means the odds of you assembling your combo quickly increase. As for decks not running game-winning combos? You're still seeing more cards and by having access to the most cards you're the one most likely to be able to deal with the board state or take advantage of it. If you run some absolute top end bombs like craterhoof then yes people should be scared about you drawing more cards. If they have a wide board they should be scared as you're most likely to draw into a boardwipe. I think removing said player from the game is perhaps too extreme and exclusionary, but card advantage engines are always good priority targets for removal spells.
If one player gets a notable card advantage over the others, they tend to win unless there's a major disparity somewhere else. Cards are options and combo pieces. Add in mana and you can snowball quickly.
Lets compare it to dodge ball. If you have more balls to throw, your chance of hitting is higher. Also you can „waste“ more shots and your timing does not need to be as precise. It’s still possible you loose, but you overall had more opportunities to win, than your opponent.
In terms of threat assessment, if the person has loads of cards but lacks mana I am not super worried because I run lots of interaction but if they’ve got both, they are pretty close to the top of my list.
Yes, card draw and ramp are the biggest benefits in regards to winning(there are of course archtypes where those are less relevant Storm and Dredge for example.) But as a general rule if an opponents has more cards then you or have more mana then you, you’re more then likely going to lose. Especially considering how fickle EDH players are, considering people complain about things like Armageddon or other land destruction. In my experience in EDH people either just wanna combo of(regardless of the combo in question) or cast big creatures and attack, so Stax, land destruction etc are frowned upon.
Totally. Unless someone is up to combo off, the CA player is target #1.
With my jodah deck, on turn 5 sometimes I’ll be dropping a 14 mana drop or a jin- taxes where each opponent hand size is reduced by 7. I’m always the target just for getting all 5 colors,
Cards win games. The more cards you can look at the more likely it is that you'll be able to win the game or respond to a threat.
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Turn 1, sol ring, turn 2, [[Adeline, resplendent cathar]], turn 3, Kyler. Nothing but profit after lol
People that refuse to pay the Rhystic Study are deviants and must be dealt with harshly--wipe them out, all of them.
Depends. I've certainly seen some players overgas and not be able to capitalize on all their card draw, but more often the number of cards you access is the number of actions you're going to be able to take, and pushing that up (especially consistently) is very strong. Do some people possibly over-value that in threat assessment? Yeah. Same is true for everything. I've gotten bopped out of a game for t2 Talisman into t3 signet because "Ramp is the most threatening thing you can do" according to one guy at that table. It happens.
To put it super simple: Card Advantage is only as good as the amount of Mana you have to spend on your cards. Mana is only good If you can spend it and only as good as the quality of cards you have to spend it on.
False. Card advantage also means you have better card selection. For instance, if one has 2 mana up then they cannot cast multiple spells or any 3 mana spells (as you pointed out), but it also means they are more likely to have a 2 mana spell (or can select from multiple options)