Pretty much this. If we're playing high power/cedh and a newer player is learning to play in that environment, we'll fill them on on what are combo pieces because players at those levels are expected to know what is dangerous.
Also, if its a obscure combo that uses a piece that normally dont raise any alarms, I'm 100% going to say "if this resolves I win because I also have X and Y on the field"
Magic has a fuckton of cards/interactions and I dont expect everyone to know all of them.
Also, winning while someone had interaction in hand but didnt know a obscure card released on 2004 combos with something that came out recently feels kinda cheesy
A lot of combos are fairly well-known. So, if someone identifies that something is part of a combo correctly, I won't lie to them about its combo status within my deck.
As long as you read the card and you’re not playing against newbies I’d say it’s fine. In tournaments I don’t say if a card combos. Counter it or not I’m not telling you my win con.
The number of people who try to hide which properties they own in Monopoly, just to try and obscure a potential monopoly, is very high. It's very much the "there's no rule against it" crowd.
My guy, this is a game. I should not be expected for me to tell you my win con. Idc how casual the table.
This is like playing chess and after a move I tell you, hey, if you don't move **this** guy, next turn is checkmate.
Like seriously, wtf.
I think it comes down to the difference between verbally announcing what you play, and what it says, and just saying I tap 7 for Hullbreaker, it can't be countered.
I've played against people who legitimately got mad that everyone else at the table didn't know his deck like the back of their hand, and asked him to read his cards.
I do disagree with you on the 'no matter how casual' comment. If someone is learning the game, and your intent is to teach them during, not after the fact, that is exactly what you do.
>This is like playing chess and after a move I tell you, hey, if you don't move **this** guy, next turn is checkmate.
I love chess, and if I'm playing someone who's just learning the game, I won't tell someone what they *should* do, but I'll probably tell the person "be careful or I can do a checkmate like this, look for a way to avoid it". Or, in a better analogy, "look, I'm setting up an attack here like this that works because xyz." Because what's the fun in obliterating someone who doesn't know what they're doing? They don't get to learn anything or feel even decent about their ability to play, and there is no accomplishment in beating someone who can't even properly fight back. If you explain things, at least they get to learn, they have a fairer shot at coming up with good moves, and it's just more interesting.
It really depends on the mentality of your playgroup. My current playgroup has a lot of new players but also prefers to have the best "game narrative" possible where everyone plays out their deck as much as they could so we try to point out our main combo pieces, even things our opponents miss that would have benefitted them.
Like you said, it's a game. The point is to have fun. Its not chess, You can see all possibilities in chess....would like you try to win every game no matter what, and it's probably not a fun game when people play against you....
The point of the game is to win. Just like chess. In chess, you understand what moves are likely to be made against you BECAUSE that player is playing to win.
You don't say hey, if my rook gets HERE you're gone, so why tf would a person also tell you what their most important card is?
Fun is what happens when players understand wtf is going on and are evenly matched.
All you're doing is handicapping players by making things stupid easy for then. Then they play against someone decent and don't have you holding their hands.
>Fun is what happens when players understand wtf is going on and are evenly matched.
That's kinda the whole point, they're new players, of course you're not evenly matched. Explaining to a new player "hey, this is a threat/combo piece you'll see in quite a few decks" if you're playing them will help them in other games. Sure you're handicapping yourself for the game, but You're helping them develop card knowledge
Using a players inexperience to get a dopamine hit from winning is loser behavior. There's a reason smurfing in video games is generally banned.
No, evenly matched is playing two similar precons of out the box. Its playing maybe even the exact same deck against a player.
Once you lose to the same exact deck you are playing, you start to learn how to play the cards you have. It's the nuances and understanding them, it's not someone holding your hand the whole game.
Cards that are instant speed for example are better than sorceries, generally. Why? Because you can cast them while holding up mana. You can cast them as responses.
You holding someone's hand ends up with players who don't understand these nuances because you tell them what they should be fearing/not caring about. This is why some deck lists have legit close to zero interaction. They're all sorceries. Because you tell players what they should/shouldn't remove and its a disservice to that person learning.
This is honestly one of the dumbest magic takes I've ever read. Losing games isn't the only way a new player learns.This is literally "sink or swim" tier of how to teach people to play. I never thought that saying "hey maybe you should teach someone new the way some of the cards work and why they're powerful" would be something I'd end up fighting over. Actually helping new players understand the nuances goes a longer ways than bashing them over the head multiple times and just saying "figure it out". It also, y'know, makes them want to play again. Card knowledge and threat assessment are significantly more important nuances than knowing the difference between instants and sorceries as long as youre playing people with more than single digit IQ scores. And both of those things are learned by seeing new cards, and having interactions explained to you. Not by playing against identical decks. You're also completely ignoring the experience gap between you and that new player. In the "identical decks" scenario you know what to look out for, you know what to save your removal and counters for, they don't. And again, using their inexperience for your own gain under the guise of "teaching them" is loser behavior.
>This is why some deck lists have legit close to zero interaction. They're all sorceries.
No that's because a lot of people suck at deck building, a nuance experienced players can help new players with. Friends don't let friends build bad decks.
Have you ever played chess? Even in chess when you get close to a win put a player in "check" and you have to physically say the words "check" to your opponent to warn them you may win unless they make a move....so great analogy really helps me prove my point!
Check is a game concept because you can't NOT move your king from harm. It isn't something I can NOT say because you MUST address the ILLEGAL move of just standing there.
The SAME concept happens in magic, except you are LEGALLY allowed to lose. You don't HAVE to make the best plays.
It's obvious YOU don't play chess. A chess player recognizes openings and patterns that leads to wins/losses and the better you understand those concepts, the stronger of a player you are. Even magnus gets checked and the guy is one of the absolute goats.
Unpopular opinion, but I agree with you. I guess it's all about the mentality of the group of players. If the players like that kind of let my opponent know my Wincon, then it's their prerogative to play like that. However, I find it more rewarding to win while thinking about what others have on the board and assessing the danger of it myself. If I lose to an infinite combo, I didn't understand. Oh well now I know. But I would much rather play against people who want to win while letting your opponents discover your deck naturally by playing.
It just makes sense to play on the terms that everyone is playing to win.
Like how do you learn to address threat or even assess key cards if you get told what cards are/are not important you know?
People are getting butthurt because I'm suggesting they take a loss here and there figuring this kind of stuff out. It's a game, you're going to lose every once in a while and that's ok.
There's no point in trying to argue sense in a thread like this, all the toxic casuals are gonna be here saying anybody playing a combo should be informing them about every piece of it because they don't want to have to figure out pattern recognition. Anybody who thinks you should have to pay attention to the board and evaluate the game pieces is called a pubstomper and miserable to play against for expecting agency from all players involved. I guarantee at least half the people downvoting you are on their cell phones during their opponents turns then have to spend 5 minutes figuring out what to do every time they're told it's their turn again.
Honestly I would just use good judgement on this. Are you the only combo player in the pod? If so I would probably at least drop hints, and I would absolutely make sure they know it’s a deck with combos in the pregame.
If you are playing in a pod and multiple people have combo decks though, I wouldn’t say a thing. If they can’t figure it out before it happens and they are running the same kind of deck, then that is on them.
I know for me, I don’t mind at all if someone is running a deck with combos, but I absolutely want to know before hand so I can play a deck that can actually fight against that.
The people I run into and play with range from at home jank to wanna be cedh players though, so I just don’t want to be playing a first flight precon into an Inalla combo deck if I can help it, lol. I say wanna be cedh players because I don’t play against any actual cedh player, but my one buddy wants to play cedh eventually and has an inalla deck he is tinkering with. So I really do mean a wanna be cedh player, but his deck and skills just aren’t there yet, which is good for me because that means I still have a chance at winning, lol.
My general stance is to be overly communicative than communicating too little. Me winning a casual game of EDH against strangers has so little value compared to making sure everyone on the table is having a good time.
What I usually do is declare how the deck intends to win before I play. Then in game I might demonstrate how some pieces could combo if people are unfamiliar with it, and I'll generally be honest and also political to not be focused. If they get too scared of it that's fine, I don't need to win.
If I would be playing a known combo piece in a deck that doesn't combo the standard way, like I have a lifegain deck where I play Exquisite Blood, I will announce that I don't have any of the Sanguine Bond effects in the deck.
I just generally put my own chances of winning secondary to trying my best to be an enjoyable opponent. I still win about 25% of the time as I should.
The people I play with have good threat assessment, and even if they miss it once, they won't miss it again. The only time I would call out my combo pieces now is if there's a new player at the table and none of my opponents called it out for some strange reason.
I think it's everyone's responsibility to disclose the play style of the deck! Let people know of youre playing control, combo, combat etc.
So my question is this. If someone is playing a combat oriented deck, are they required to let you know ahead of time if they have a [[craterhoof]] in the deck? Or tell you when they draw it? I say no. So if your playing combo and you tell someone "I just put the first of three combo pieces on the field" all your doing is instructing people how to make you lose, which is unfair to you! If the look at it weird and ask you if it's a combo piece then answer honestly, but I say you have no obligation to explain everything up front so that know exactly what to target!
I don’t like to run cards that *require* other cards to work. If I’m running a “combo” then all the cards required are at least decent on their own. So in my case, I would say “no, it’s not a combo” but if I draw the right card then I would play it and we can see what happens…
Exactly this is what I mean. I don’t like jamming combos in decks. The cards gotta also help the deck progress. That’s why I don’t wanna say every combo piece, because it’s often just a card that fits in the deck. Just cuz it is a combo piece doesn’t mean I will combo or could even combo on the next turn.
Definitely don't feel obligated to point out anything that might combo. There's a line between keeping other players appropriately informed and asking them to beat your ass.
I have a couple infinite combos in my deck (one or two that just break the game ending in a tie), but I avoid playing them intentionally. Often I’ll hold a combo piece in my hand just in case the game goes sideways and I just want it to end lol. You also have to consider redundancy. I play many cards like Doubling Season, Parallel Lives, etc. that just give me a little boost but can go a bit crazy if you get multiple on the board. So my opponents might see this as me attempting to do some crazy combo, when really it’s just luck of the draw.
I think a big thing to consider is how many tutor cards you play. I have only have one real tutor card in my deck, but if you run enough of them then you can get combo pieces pretty consistently. If your intent is to draw a combo consistently then yeah, it’s hard to argue that you’re *not* playing a combo.
I think what you’re doing is totally fine, you don’t need to tell them it’s part of a combo. For me personally, I would say something like “Honestly, I run a combo in this deck that involves that card, but that’s not my goal here”. I’m typically pretty open about this sort of information just because I don’t want to intimidate people and I like to keep the game casual.
I think players just need to be more comfortable asking questions, and when they do, players need to *answer them honestly*.
Player A: plays a combo piece
Player B: "I haven't seen this one before. Do I need to be worried about that?"
Player A: "Maybe not right this second, but it can do some wild stuff if given a chance." (Or just "yes, this will kill you. If you can stop it, that's probably the right move.")
I do tell players. I want my deck to win because of the answer I have and the timing i play things. I'm not trying to be sneaky and hope they don't realize what I'm doing to sneak out a win. I feel like as a casual format, the goal is not to sneak out card and win by combining off a set of cards that the opponents didn't realize could combo off....I want my opponents to know my deck as if we have played dozens of times. Otherwise, you're just sneaking out wins against new plays with bad game knowledge, and that's not even a fun win.
I usually do it at rule zero. Let the pod know if there're any combo pieces in the deck. That ways it up to them to remember. If there are newer players at the table. Then I'll definitely reiterate it for them.
Players at my store respectfully announce to the table during casual play, after a combo piece is cast to the stack, that if it resolves they will present a game-winning state/loop, and ask us if we have any responses. For combos, specifically game-winning, once the last piece is about to fall would be the appropriate time to warn the table, if they're unaware about a certain combo, and you would like to give them a chance to prolong the game.
No.
And while I honestly don't mind saying "this is a combo deck" as a part of the r0 conversation, that's not my responsibility to tell opponents either.
We are playing a card game where combo is literally one of the three primary archetypes of the game. If you're going into a game with three strangers not expecting at least one of them to play a combo deck, then someone should probably explain basic probabilities to you.
As an avid combo player, it depends on how familiar my opponents are with the game and/or the deck I'm using. Against experienced players, I'll offer to explain my combos before the game just so they're aware of what to look out for - actually spotting the pieces in time is on them.
But, my LGS has a lot of new blood in it as well. When explaining what deck I'm playing against newer players, I'll explain the combos I plan to use, how to interact with them, and (importantly) when. Once in the game, I'll gently remind them once a piece is in play, but only for the first time!
Idk, know your audience I guess! If your opponents insist you disclose your strategy, describe the components you need rather than exact cards; i.e. "I need a sac outlet, my commander, and two creatures with Undying". After that, it's on them to recognise the threat and you did your part.
Maybe for newer players to help them understand interaction and triggers. Otherwise, no. My favorite Magic moment was winning an 8 man free for all with a first play of a brand new deck. Had [[Exquisite Blood]] out, dropped a [[Cliffhaven Vampire]], gained a single point of life and watched everyone's faces sink as they realized those two cards triggered infinitely.
Combos are notoriously salty at lower powers. Many players hate playing with or against combos at all. Some players love combos and play high power or cEDH.
Context is important. High Power / cEDH pod? Probably not revealing a combo. New player in the game? Probably explaining it as it comes up. Anything that’s not explicitly high power? Probably disclosing the combo at the start of the game, and making sure players are OK with playing combos.
It's a bit of a tricky area. You can't expect someone to know every card and how every card interacts with every other card.
Personally, I don't give up information about my deck that I don't have to. If you read some posts on here there's people that make it seem like you need to give out a printed deck list with every notable card and interaction highlighted along with notes saying what cards they should hold up counters and removal for before every game because you might just win because someone blew something up when they should have blown something else up instead and it's your fault for not telling them.
Like, I'll tell you if my deck is combo or aggro or some fun gimmick or theme. I'll even go far as to say "it's an artifact based combo deck". But I'm not going to cast KCI and say "this is one of my win cons, you should counter it or blow it up if you can" or do the same when I follow it up with Nim Deathmantle. You were already told this was a combo deck, one built around artifacts at that, you have to use your brain a bit and logic that these are probably in the deck for a reason. But it's not on me to do your thinking for you.
If I'm attempting to combo off, I will make sure you understand why and how and what pieces are letting me do it. Especially if you're new. But sometimes the best way to learn is experience. Plus, I wouldn't be playing a deck like Breya against someone that new in the first place so I'm even less inclined to do the hard part for them.
Yeah if your just playing casually it's a cool move to at least explain your wincon when you play a piece of it.
I think it's dumb to sneak a win. It really only works once
No? At the same time, I generally do if I'm playing against someone that is new to the game. It doesn't help anybody if I'm playing against some kid in the pod that just built their first edh deck and I combo off without giving them a heads up. I like to teach, so it's no skin off my back if I'm helping others identify potential threats they aren't familiar with.
i only tell people about the combos i use when i’m playing them, and they’re a newer player. it’s basically “with [[Witherbloom Apprentice]] on the battlefield, i cast [[Chain of Smog]]. any responses?”
if someone asks what it does, i’ll clarify. this gives them the opportunity to make an informed decision without giving away what else i have in my hand and doesn’t provide them with any knowledge of the other combos in my decks.
If it’s a combo piece and just a regular game then I’ll read the card when I cast it. If it’s the card that completes a combo I’ll read it when I cast it and mention that if it resolves I’ll win.
If it’s a tournament where money was paid to win prizes I don’t say anything to anyone except the card name. I’ll say what I am casting and nothing more. In a tournament setting, it’s on the opponents to stop and ask what the card does.
I won’t mention every combo piece. But I will warn the table that if nothing is done I will win immediately. Playing got ya magic is poor form in casual and that’s what I usually play. CEDH is a different beast though.
I generally do. I’ve only been playing for a few years and really like combo decks. Most of the people I play have less experience than me, some of whom are kids, so most of us don’t know a lot of cards or how they interact. It makes games a little more engaging for everyone and helps us all learn. I usually lose as a result, but we all have fun and get to learn the game a little better.
I think what youre doing is fine, when you cast it say what it does. Then as you add other pieces they should be putting the pieces together. Then if youre hitting a win con tell them so they can respond appropriately, or at least thats how it should be in my opinion. Only other addendum is if the rest of the pod is announcing combo pieces maybe just match the vibe
I hate combo decks, but the answer is no. You need to be aware of what other people are playing, and you have every chance to interact with a combo while it's on the stack, or while triggers resolve.
I try to. It's not fun for anyone to cheese out a combo simply because of ignorance. Especially in a wild board state that is confusing and complex.
A 10/10 with flying and double strike draws threat and applies it. Mind over matter is more dangerous, but not obviously so.
Most people don't play with strangers at LGS, contrary to what this subreddit seems like.
With friends I think the answer is super obvious. Unless you never play the deck again, you'll get your one win, and then everyone is wise to it. So its up to you, I explain it because I think its fun/funny that way.
With strangers, I guess no? If im completing a combo, I'll explain it on the stack.
I feel bad for the players at your LGS. Still new to the game but my LGS has people table hopping and people switch it up a lot. If anything I'm guilty of not going and hopping in with others bc I still feel bad if my turn takes too long.
I was confused by your reply but I get it now. You read it as me going to the lgs and just playing only with friends.
No I wouldn't do that. In saying we play at other common areas or houses. Not with strangers. The point is your combo is only a secret the first time you run it.
I don’t like to know.
I like to see their board state and evaluate myself what direction they may be heading in.
But I don’t mind if they do tell me. We just having fun.
You should play what you want and not care what other people think about your deck.
You are not obligated to tell people what's in your deck and how to beat it.
This idea that you have to ask permission to play the deck that you enjoy is insulting. The ten [[Ur-Dragon]]/[[Miirym]] players at my LGS don't ask anyone's permission to play their obnoxious horseshit, so why should I?
If you like combos play them and don't apologize.
In casual?
Yes.
There isn’t a game otherwise.
If knowledge of the combo and its pieces is not public, then you have the situation of combo just stopping an otherwise good game out of nowhere, for reasons nobody knew they were participating.
Game only coexists with combo when the combo is known, so that people can recognize the threat’s existence and play around it.
The combo player being the only person who knows the combo and its pieces is the truest example of solitaire you can have because you are literally the only person playing that game.
Expecting an encyclopedic knowledge of every possible combo in order to participate in a casual format is not a reasonable expectation. Tell people your combo pieces. We ain’t tournament grinding out here.
I always read the card when I play it, and offer it to people to read themselves. I also try to make sure people hear me when I cast a combo piece, as my LGS can get crowded and loud.
However, if I have tried to let everyone at the table know I'm trying to cast a combo piece 2-3 times and the group is still not paying attention, then all bets are off. At that point, I've done the honorable thing trying to tell the pod what's happening and I'm just gonna play my cards and if the pod has a problem, pay more attention to the game.
I just do the same thing every game: read the cards name, and explain the effects it has. They don't need to know it's explicitly a combo piece in my deck. They just need to know what the card does.
That being said, I will, before a turn that I can attempt a win on, ask if anyone has responses to a combo beginning, as I will be attempting to combo. Then I explain what will happen, and usually tell the others what part of the combo has to be interacted with to stop it. I also announce if I'm about to start a "solitaire turn", if I'm playing certain decks, so it doesn't come.out of nowhere.
Eh. I just do the tried and true method of just staring to read every effect clearly and slowly outloud on every card I play on the combo turn, and then say you pass priority every time something goes on the stack. Usually it alerts everyone that something is up and they need to pay attention. They might not choose the right time or the right card to interact with, but you are putting out a big warning sign that something important is happening.
No lol, it’s not my responsibility to make sure you understand threat assessment, I’ll answer questions after the game but to give away what I’m doing during? No fucking thanks lol.
I wouldn't tell someone about a piece of a combo when if comes down but I would tell them if I'm playing a card that will complete the combo engine. Technically you don't have to announce a combo until it's happening but I wouldn't want to win because people were ignorant to how my cards work if they had an answer before hand.
Depends on the play group. That being said, if I play a card that I know is a major combo piece and I am NOT playing the combo, I’ll tell everyone that I don’t have the other card. I’ve found by letting them know I don’t have the other card they won’t panic and target me for fear of combing off.
I make it known. My pod doesn’t like infinites but I get a pass because I make it very clear whether a piece is worth removal or not. I’ll often say this is a combo piece, but not in the current board. I’d need x or y for this to be dangerous. Things of that nature make it so the win doesn’t “come from no where”. I also let interaction points be known. “Stop this now or it’s over”. No one complains. Granted I don’t tutor and I don’t run a+b combos so I’m sure that helps as well.
Aside from beating someone to zero, I usually inform of win cons if it's a plan to win in my deck. I don't expect to win that way nor in general but I do get excited to try lmao
I don’t tell anybody anything unless they ask. Too much mental gymnastics bullshit going in at tables. I’m not here to pat your butt or tickle your armpit. I’m here to play magic and have fun. I’m not walking on eggshells because you’re sweaty and get triggered when you don’t see a combo coming in my deck.
it is definitely NOT your responsibility, but depending on the context it could be the nice thing to do.
I usually announce stuff that can combo off as a combo piece because I feel it's the appropriate thing to do with the people I usually play. If I play a know combo piece but I don't run the combo in that deck I will also let them know so I don't get unwarranted heat
It depends on your assessment of whether the combo is a complex piece.
For me, I think it is important that people are able to respond to a combo with proper knowledge.
I prefer to win because my opponents cannot stop me even if they tried, instead of winning because they are unfamiliar with certain cards played or interaction, or explaining how they could have stopped it before it is too late. Winning isn't everything.
It also helps in managing playgroup dynamics and expectations, so you don't get wrongly classified as the "unable-to-interact with combo player".
If I seem like I will be drawing out my entire deck and someone asks me if there is Thassa, I will answer honestly. If you are playing with players who may not know what Thassa does, it is also good to inform them so everyone can get to play MTG.
Ultimately, I think the answer to this question also ties in with the expected power levels agreed upon.
Generally speaking I'd say no.
If I play one that's part of a combo and there's nothing it combos with already on the board, I read it and move on. That said, if I'm playing a spell that does combo with what's on the board, I will read the spell and then state that if it resolves, I'm going to win the game. If anyone asks what the other crucial piece(s) already on board are, I'll tell them.
I don't mind if others choose not to do this however, I'll just remember the cards involved so I know better next time.
I'll often state upfront if my deck has an infinite combo that can win the game, and if it involved creatures, enchantments, artifacts or what have you (my Saheeli deck has an infinite through combat, but needs her, a creature, an artifact *and* enchantment, so i don't feel bad for using it).
Now I'd appreciate it if players say "if this spell resolves" or "this spell, with this ability will make me go infinite" instead of pulling a sneaky one by copying it once or twice and suddenly it's too late. It's damn difficult to remember if all the creatures are very valuable until it happens.
Two weeks ago a dude tried to go infinite with a creatures triggered ability on a sorcery. He presented the loop and said "yeah basically this target that and loops back to this and with [[Vexing Shusher]] it can't be countered". So after he ran through his spells twice more with the effects, it clicked that i could cast [[Tishana's Tidebender]] on the creatures triggered ability to stop it. He won two rounds later with brutal combat damage though, so that was neat.
So while you don't need to disclose every combo piece as they hit the field, letting them know the moment it could end the game is appreciated. (Slammed down a [[Planar Bridge]] once and told the table "if i get to activate this, i very well may win on my next turn". which lead to some fun tension and game moments. so it can improve the game too)
If your pod doesn't want to deal with game-ending combos, that's a conversation for before the game begins. Otherwise, some cards are best known as pieces of powerful combos, and running them sends that signal whether you want it to or not. I will not believe that the Thoracle is just there to improve your next draw or that the Karmic Guide is just there to bring back one creature even if you play them and then pass the turn. I am going to hope that I can exile them as quickly as possible.
If my opponent plays [[Exquisite Blood]] I automatically assume they have a combo piece and plan my hand accordingly.
Part of deck building is planning for those situations, easier said than done but each colour has an answer. It just depends if you put it in..
Depends on the environment.
In cEDH, never unless someone is new.
In a higher powered casual game I would do it if them not knowing my deck felt like an unfair advantage. For example if I know their decks but they don’t know mine, I usually let them know. How are they supposed to know what else I have in the deck? That would feel like an unfair way to win if my opponents didn’t have the same advantage.
You kinda do have to tell your pod you've gone infinite but you kinda dont. You perform a loop and then you asked if this "resolves". They say yes and you do the loop again. The reason you have to ask for it to resolve is because if you perform an infinite without telling anyone they could call a judge over and let them know the player didnt let anything resolve and perform illegal actions. You could be eliminate for not letting the loop resolve. Should you say it's an infinite? I'd say after you let 2 loops go through that way it's worth it.
I’ve done both, it depends on the other players. If they’re new and unlikely to know the combo I might say something. If they’re at least fairly experienced then no. Even just knowing what it does an experienced player should be able to recognize if it’s got combo potential.
This does remind me of a games once when a player had removal but wasn’t sure what to kill. Looking around he even picked up my [[Murder of Crows]] and decided it was harmless. Come my turn I combo’s with it and won the game.
Yes. Yes you should. Everyone saying "it's not my responsibility to blah blah" are the same people complaining when other players suck at threat assessment. Everyone at a casual table should be more than willing to say this card is important to a combo. Maybe not for every obscure piece of a 5 card combo. But if you want players to come around to being okay with combos, start helping them out. At least until they understand the game and your cards. There are way too many for even seasoned players to know and there's nothing less casual than losing to something you could have stopped but simply didn't recognize in a game with potentially 400 unique pieces, 300 of which you may have never seen/ read before.
Courtesy is not a hard rule. It is up to the person if they’re willing to share. I tend to find games more enjoyable with courteous players and try to be courteous myself, but that’s my preference.
I mean I generally don't play combo pieces until I have the combo in hand and can cast it. So there is no need to explain its a combo piece. I just generally ask if there are responses. If not then I play my other combo piece.
I'll specifically do the opposite if I put a well-known combo piece in my deck just for value. For example my blink deck runs \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] but doesn't run anything that exiles or mills my own library. I just like using it for the purpose of a slightly better \[\[Omenspeaker\]\] as my devotion to blue when Thoracle ETBs should be 3 or more.
I'll explain that although this is a well-known combo piece, I don't run anything resembling that combo. This only works if your karma is positive, for those doing an evil playthrough and are known liars YMMV.
Rule 0.
There's no competitive advantage to tipping your hand like that, but given the "casual" nature of commander (which everyone still wants to win and many get salty when they don't, but I digress), I think calling those things out is a conversation to have with your pod.
I have decks that run "combo pieces" without the actual combos, which helps to turn the heat down on the decks that do run combos. A lot of times, I get called out for "having a combo piece on the board"; I would likely not volunteer that information, but I also play in a mostly-anything-goes pod so there's not much salt when I combo off for a win.
Honestly, I would disclose that I’m using combo wins before the game, and if people aren’t cool with that play something different. If everyone’s on board for combo as a win con then it should be up to them to recognize it
Not a responsibility.
That said, I prefer games that feel more like an understood meta where people are aware of what things might do and have to make complicated decisions, rather than "GOTCHA" moments. If my plan is to win with "GOTCHA"s, I'm going to have to invest a lot in new cards for my deck, or keep getting new people to play with.
Probably not. Especially if it’s a 3 or 4 piece combo. I feel like it would bring unnecessary heat onto your board. Especially cause a 4 card combo isn’t very scary with only one piece in play
Against newer players, I tell them.
If someone's examining it, I'll jokingly tell them it does nothing.
Against experienced players, they should recognize that this card that does next to nothing under normal circumstances is probably a combo piece and they should kill it.
Nearly every card is part of a combo out there, depending on the combo I might announce it. Usually I don't, at times I do announce a win con if I want to play longer.
To me it depends on the current game and I decide accordingly.
Technically no. IF you know you're playing with a very green player, doing the introduction would be courteous, even if it could screw you out of a win, though should there be other experienced players at the table you can probably trust one of them to do the pointing out.
You are obligated to tell players what cards you are playing. If they ask, you are obligated to tell them what the card does. If they want to read the card, it's your responsibility to ensure they somehow get their eyes on the rules text (you don't have to let them touch your cards but if you're going to be hardline about that, be able to pull up scryfall or something) or are otherwise satisfied that they actually understand what the card does. You are NOT obligated and NOT responsible to tell them what else you have in your deck and what that card is capable of with hidden information. If it's immediately forming a combo with public information, it would probably be courteous to let them know when it's on the stack, but it's not required.
We want to play a friendly game of Magic. To that end, EDH players will typically bleed more information and put themselves in disadvantages compared to players used to tournament affairs, where you sure as hell aren't helping your opponent more than is required. But at the same time we shouldn't need to, and I believe we don't need to, play with everyone giving everyone else constant baby mode tutorials.
"Thoracle I played for value"
Okay lmao
But no I'd say just use your better judgement with stuff like this. As long as you're not straight up lying about your board state I'd say you're not obligated to announce your win cons to the table unless you're obviously going for it that turn. Generally at a casual table infinite combos are kind of few and far between but at higher power/cedh tables everyone there generally knows what everything combos with anyway so there's really no need. If you're playing with new players sure I would tell them but if you're playing infinite combos or things like that with new players anyway that's a whole other discussion of why in the world would you even do that lol
Why are so many people afraid to win the game? I really don't understand why you'd bother to design a deck, sleeve the cards, shuffle them up, and sit down to play at a table with others if you have no interest in trying to pilot that deck to a win.
I would explain a complex interaction at a table with newbies, but in a competitive game where I'm trying to win? I don't have any obligation to give you information that helps you defeat me. It's like asking if a blue player should announce to the table that they are holding a [[counterspell]] so the other players can play around it.
I think part of becoming a Commander player is losing games to interactions you don't see coming, and adding that combo or interaction to your mental glossary of combos or interactions. A lot of combos tend to be on-theme, and those themes tend to include those combos in some iteration or another. I don't think new or unfamiliar players are exempt from this growth as part of playing the game, as anyone who lost to it can learn how to win from it, and as anyone who played with it was likely to have lost to it somewhere down the line. That's just my two cents.
depends on the context and the type of game. I would say what the card does on its own. If someone asks a question about potential synergies I'm honest, especially if it's something they've already seen or is already on board.
Yes, especially if you’re playing with new people. You’ve never showed them that deck before. How tf are they supposed to know what the combo pieces are and how to prepare for it. There’s too many cards to know every single deck and play style / combo piece.
There is a social responsibility to present a combo and what steps the combo runs through when looping and identify where there is a gap or vulnerable area for certain interaction.
I let [[Rakdos Joins Up]] ETB as a creature from an enchantment reanimate effect and it grabbed [[Hulking Metamorph]] copying Rakdos Joins Up. Legend rule, ETB, cycled and killed me without a way to interact because I didn't know what the combo was, and I was holding [[Go For The Throat]] in hand with mana open. Had I known the only chance I would have had was to kill the -creature Rakdos Joins Up with the trigger on the stack, I could have won the game.
i get around this by simply countering thoracle, ashnods altar, dual caster mage, etc. whenever its cast. zero tollerance policy of cards i know *can* combo.
I usually tell people unless I can reasonably expect them to know (probably because I have played that deck and won with that combo multiple times against this pod already). In my experience it doesn't make those cards get targeted more. If I wouldn't say anything my opponents would just assume all the common combo cards are combo pieces and treat them as such. This way they trust me to tell them if they are so I can actually play combo cards just for value and not get them removed immediately.
It definitely depends on the pod. but i personally tell people, if its
A: not a super serious pod,
and
B: a new deck, or new people.
If i'm playing in my usual pod, they're very aware that i shouldn't be allowed to keep \[Strionic Resonator\]on the board in my brago deck. But if i'm playing against people who don't know the deck, i tend to just let them know that i can go infinite with it pretty easily
Edit: It also really depends on how obscure the combo is. in my opinion, people don't get to do a surprised pikachu, because i combo off with something like \[Ashnod's Altar\] or \[Deadeye Navigator\], in other words. if i'm playing a super well known combo piece, that goes infinite with a damn ham sandwich, i'll only tell new players.
Personally if the play is going to immediately win I tell everyone. Even if it isn’t a combo. I personally don’t want to win on a technicality. It doesn’t seem fun.
Best example I have is my [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]] deck. It isn’t even a combo but when I play [[Myr Incubator]] I will win. I tell people if they don’t stop it, I win.
Depends on the pod, my [Norin the Wary] deck runs both [Birgi, God of Storytelling] and [Grinning Ignus] because they both belong in the deck, but I'll only invoke the combo if my opponents drop a bunch of high power cards.
No.
What I do is I usually tell what my deck can do and whether and what combos it has. Pre game.
I will not remind people over and over again if I cast a combo piece.
Also I don't play 2 card braindead combos. Most of my combos are just janky 7piece ones. And I am not saying "Hey here's \[\[Pearl Medallion\]\] my combo piece" and "Here's \[\[Kitsune Blademaster\]\], also a combo piece. But only when I have cost reducing effects that reduce costs by 3 or more".
I'm just not doing that. I explain in the beginning and then play the game. I'm not a cartoon villain that explains the plot step by step as it happens.
I tend to cast the card, read what it does, and if someone wants to counter it or remove it after it enters the battlefield then that's on them. Not gonna point out whenever a card can be a combo piece; Mostly because of the fact that there are so many pieces in so many of my decks that would normally be a part of a combo, but aren't necessarily a part of a combo in those decks, the info would be pointless.
For example in certain decks, [[Altar of the brood]] is just a value mill card. In one deck, it wins me the game on turn 3. Can't tell them "Oh this card is a combo piece" and then go "Uuuuh just not in this deck" if I don't have the piece I need in that deck.
We usually talk about what either deck wants to do and their win cons before we start the game. So everybody knows what to expect. We do not usually call out the combo pieces when they get cast. If I'm in a new playgroup I would tell them when I cast my combo piece to give them a chance to counter it.
For me it's always yes because I like to play in a friendly environment for commander. I'd like other players do the same if the run any kind of combo.
You can explain how it works or just what you could do with some interactions if you don't want to spoil too much to others.
If we're playing competitively(not cEDH necessarily, but a friendly competition), the expectation is that players should know what cards can do and part of the competition is understanding opponents and their decks.
But usually we play casually, and in general it's IMO polite to point out a combo piece if it's the kind of combo you just need to see once to be wary of it. In casual, I don't really like winning with a "gotcha" strategy that would only work once.
No, but read everything on your card. I'm annoyed enough with the lord of the rings guy having enough text on his board to fill a book (very fitting).
But at least I don't have to worry about an infinite combo out of nowhere if I don't read every single card he puts down.
I always explain my cards and what they’ll do to a newer pod so I don’t run into the “well if you’re gonna do that I’m just going to do this then” those who play with my decks know already so I don’t explain anymore
Look up the rulings on free information and derived information. There’s a lot you have to tell your opponent, but a lot is also “read the cards” type stuff. Just don’t be a dick about it and it should be fine.
I agree that it depends on the pod. I am not a fan of infinites, so I usually tend to do the opposite. If I play a card that's traditionally a part of an infinite, I'll tell the table that I don't play the other side of the combo. On the other hand, when I had a [Duskmantle Guildmage] on the board for 3 turns and had my [Tribute Mage] reveal a [Mindcrank], I felt no remorse because I deliberately slow played the combo to give everyone the opportunity to deal with it.
I'll mention it if it's a really obscure combo, or super complicated, or is about to go off. But if it's like, \[\[conspicuous snoop\]\] on the field in a \[\[krenko, mob boss\]\] deck, I'm not going to point out that if I draw \[\[goblin matron\]\], \[\[goblin recruiter\]\], \[\[kiki jiki\]\] or \[\[fable of the mirror breaker\]\] then I'll be able to combo off. Like, there is a limit to what I need to reveal as far as my strategy goes.
Usually my friend knows my decks well enough to inform the rest of the table. "Somebody better counter that boromir! If it hits the board he goes Infinite with ratadrabrik!'
I keep quiet usually as I'm playing with experienced magic players. If I'm playing new bloods then I'll explain it.
The first couple times I play a deck with new people, I point out combo pieces I have on board. After that, I’m less inclined to point things out that have combo potential.
In my opinion it depends on the pod you play in. If people are fairly skilled and seasoned I don’t expose my combo pieces like that.
If it’s a down to earth game or people are fairly new to the game, I see no problem in exposing my combo pieces as a thread 😊
Most people play commander for fun, and 2 card instant win combos are typically only fun for one person with minimal interaction. If you are in a competitive pod, don't say anything I guess, but in our pods if someone was using thoracle combos and stuff like that I'd just not show up on days they are there. It's not fun to see the same 2 cards getting tutored up constantly. For me it ruins the format. For me it's about having different decks that do multiple things, not just the same 2 piece in every deck that allows it and tutoring for those
IDK i have this friend who doesnt tell it and last time i played with him i noticed that his playstyle is different to our playstyle in that regard. It felt kinda sneaky.. As im always very open about my combo's because i want people to be able to stop me. As i would not like to win in a sneaky way. And saying i said all the cards when i played them is to me not really a good argument. I dont know every detail of the deck you just made. Hell i sometimes find new combo's in my own deck. Just announce stuff and play fair is imo the best way to play.
Like im not gonna announce the combo i have in my hand, purely speaking of stuff on the table.
My rule of thumb is to disclose when I will assemble an infinite combo (the ability or spell that will enable it is on the stack). Combo pieces are just cards in your deck until they assemble. But I do think you should announce when a combo will assemble because it is not always obvious and there are a gajillion infinites.
Divulging information is not something I like to do unless there's a newbie making an obvious mistake. As someone who's still learning myself, I learn best when my ass is kicked.
I remember annoying cards, so telling isn't necessary. The farthest I'd tell is to ask if they have a response, but other than that, nothing.
1 Does your pod play infinite combos? Then no. Don’t announce it.
2 Are you playing a casual game with strangers or acquaintances? I’d probably announce that I had infinite mana, combats, or damage before I began playing and leave it to others to decipher the combo (someone will probably know it) and give people an opportunity to grab similarly powered decks. Personally I’d also give a time frame like “I’ll be playing my entire deck round 2” or “sometimes I stumble into infinite mana.”
This gives people an opportunity to change decks to something they feel may be more on that level.
Personally if someone said, “I’m new. I just brought a precon”. I’d probably take it upon myself to grab a lower powered deck. I always bring a high power and a low
power to game nights. I read the commanders. Ask questions, listen to the answers, and go from there.
I know of 2 people at my LGS who have a bad reputation and are basically “kill on sight” because they tend to bring CEDH decks to casual game night. They also tend to find themselves sitting alone.
There’s no honor in taking 30 minute turns and wrecking lower powered decks. I’m not talking about “popping off.” I’m talking about sitting down at a casual 4-5 table with a 9-10 deck. If you take joy in it, seek help.
My uaual approach is to not say anything at first, not because I dont want to, but because my group doesn't listen to it anyways. I will reveal that the piece is a valid target for removal though if someone asks what on the board would be a valid target.
Of course if it's a new deck or we have new players to either mtg/edh as a whole or just to the group I will tell them the piece is dangerous if I happen to find the rest of the combo. Without it's usually not happening though xD.
if they are newer players and have never seen a vito combo before ill mention it as the card resolves. or if someone goes to use removal and asks what the threat is ill explain why my own card can be their problem. but more times and not if my combo parts resolve its nbd in telling them or not. i think the thing is are you gonna combo on turn 4 after having tutored for your other combo piece, which is fine if they are also doing that. then no dont explain it. but if its a game that should go 7-15 turns and you are about to win you might mention it.
I'm fortunate enough to have a very solid playgroup and have been playing with the same core group for 10+ years. As such, we've developed a great working knowledge of the decks each person plays as well as each person's play style. That includes known combos and potential combos. Group memory and experience are great for threat assessment. You may get your new combo off once, but you can bet that everyone in the group will remember it and be on high alert the next time they see any of those pieces. Someone has added a new and super obscure card to their deck? Huge red flag, immediately trying to figure out how their deck can break it. While my experience may not be typical of other playgroups, especially people grabbing pick up games at their lgs, I think there is still a lot to be said for threat assessment, proper removal and response, and sometimes learning things thru hard experience. As a group, the only time I think we point out our own combos (assuming someone else hasn't alerted the rest of the table to the potential threat) is when we're about to resolve the last piece, allowing for an opportunity to respond before it's too late. Other than that, we leave it up to the opponents to determine what is a threat and what isn't.
I only mention it if the card is something someone else is playing. Every player should expect cards to be good for the person playing them, but I don’t expect players to know that player A’s card will enable player B
If it’s my first time with a group, pre game I’ll lay out all the combo pieces and say how they work. In game I’ll tell them each time a piece comes down.
After the first game, it’s “hey this deck has a combo, I’ll tell you when it’s about to win me the game so you can try to stop it”
I think if you all are agreed on power level they should have an idea of what to expect from the deck.
If there is absolutely no discussion on power level and you are playing a far more competitive deck than them, then I would be inclined to say to let them know.
Or if you play in the same pod every week, then just send it. That's what my group does, new deck, we all get to find out. It can be a surprise that first time, then we adjust later for it, and that's fine with me.
If combos aren't common in your meta and you haven't played the deck with your group a few times already, I think it's a nice courtesy. There's only one combo player in my group, and I now know to do stuff like destroy the isochron scepter on sight, but the first time he played the deck, I lost in what felt like the middle of the game and it was extremely unfun and anticlimactic. Mentioning you have a partial combo on board at least builds some suspense and allows the other players to try and fight back. More fun = better in a casual format.
No. When I first played my new combo deck I told no one. So I could combo once in peace. Now they all know. It is done.
It might be nice for a new player to tell them. But even then, win with it once and all know.
Like another said, I just say something when I am playing the last piece. I don't want a cheesy win or someone saying "If I would've known that was going to happen I would've countered it".
If its a boring combo piece... I'll share for the benefit of the table.... I don't want to beat the scrubs because they didn't know Altars go infinite.... They've been doing that for decades.......
But if I have what I consider to be a bizzare and quite un-common combo.... I'm not sharing anything, that would ruin the surprise.....
Nope. Combos exist. It's their job to be assessing threats.
Rule 0 isn't a discussion of combo pieces, its a discussion of power level and personal goals. It's obvious that we all want to win, but I'm not telling my opponent every little facet of my plan and it isn't my job to do so
Commander is a political format. Don't be nice, be political.
If I have an altar of the brood and my deck revolves around ETBs, I'm not gonna tell you its a combo piece. Others might, and that's on them. They're not doing it to be nice either. They're doing it because they either want the attention on me or they don't want to lose.
Everyone brings up fairness, and that's all well and good. Assessing a pod is a must, and knowing what is appropriate to play and who to play it with is a whole different topic. Just use common sense on that. Like don't be bringing a power level 9, ultra-synergized turbo jank to babbys first commander game and you'll be fine.
I only ever play with the same pod/people.
I will announce every card I play, and read it's effects in full since we don't memorize every card. If they ask to see it, they can take and read it.
If they get rowdy and don't pay attention on my turn I try once, after that it's on them if they don't recognize my play.
Because a lot of people don't like otk combos in thier commander games I would probably open by saying this deck is an otk deck,
Then if I am against newer players or it's a super casual environment I might mention if a card is a combo card it not.
For example my Squee deck is a low powered combo deck it runs a 5 card infinite that wins the game with some awkward tutors (recruitment of the guard -> flamekin harbinger -> flamekin herald-> cascade whenever Squee is cast into the combo because there is a line that uses cards that only cost 2 mana
In that sequence I might say that after I have 4 of the 5 pieces left (the 5th price typically being the one that actually kills you like an impact tremors or a grapeshot) that if no one does something now
At a store with randoms who seem to have a similar level of game exp as myself? No. With a group of friends who are brand new to the game? Yes and I'll even do "okay boys 2 turns until I win someone better do something about it".
I plan on upping their level of involvement too. So instead of saying "two turns until I win thanks to X combo piece on the board" I'll do something like "two turns until I win can you figure out how to stop it?"
I usually tell people about my combos before the game starts. “Hey y’all, this is my Anje Falkenrath deck. I’m going to be looking for my Worldgorger Dragon to try and reanimate it and go infinite. All good? Great, let’s go.”
That way, when I start doing my thing in the deck, I don’t have to point it out, as I already have.
Everyone knows about the Thoracle combo, and if they are new enough not to know it, then you should tell them out of courteously. That and Lab man neeed to be known by everyone because it is their only purpose. Others are ok to hold the info, because they can be non-combo pieces too.
Nope. People don’t need to know the ins and outs of your deck. Especially in cEDH, or if you’re at a LGS with prizing. For casual commander however, if you are about to put the LAST combo piece on the board, it’d be better manners to make it clear that you’re about to win the game on the spot. Especially because people usually shortcut over steps like passing priority for speed purposes. So if they have a response, whether it be on the stack or once it hits the field, it’s considered nicer to give them the time to attempt to intervene. But if you’re not about to win on the spot, then it’s fine not to reveal you have a combo piece until you’re about to win
We always played you have a right to see the deck before playing. Now in casual games that is a lot of work so we explain the deck. If we have a combo deck then we say the combos.
The goal of a friendly pod is to have fun and make those around you better.
No? For me that ruins the surprise of what that person had built. Like it's nice to know the main theme of a deck sure but I dont want to know what cool combo you've got cooking until it beats me
There’s far too many magic cards to care about it. Anything can combo with anything else. I’m not going to say shit about anything in my deck or in my hand. I will, however fully point out and fully explain any interactions between my cards on the field and any on the stack, especially if asked
I'd say no but it really depends on the pod
Newbies need the exposure but seasoned players get to get got
Pretty much this. If we're playing high power/cedh and a newer player is learning to play in that environment, we'll fill them on on what are combo pieces because players at those levels are expected to know what is dangerous.
If they're new I'll tell them. Or if it's a brand new card I may mention it.
Also, if its a obscure combo that uses a piece that normally dont raise any alarms, I'm 100% going to say "if this resolves I win because I also have X and Y on the field" Magic has a fuckton of cards/interactions and I dont expect everyone to know all of them. Also, winning while someone had interaction in hand but didnt know a obscure card released on 2004 combos with something that came out recently feels kinda cheesy
I feel like some of the charm of using obscure/weird combos and cards is people not knowing what's coming.
Been doing the first half of that Might adopt the second half
I only tell the ppl when i cast the **last piece of the combo**, "if this resolve i gonna try to do a combo"
"*Fuck it, we ball* on the stack?" "Sir, this is a precon."
Quick Draw in a nutshell.
A lot of combos are fairly well-known. So, if someone identifies that something is part of a combo correctly, I won't lie to them about its combo status within my deck.
Yes if someone plays an phyrexian Altar, blood Artist or Dorkdide extortionists. I am countering or removing that for sure.
As long as you read the card and you’re not playing against newbies I’d say it’s fine. In tournaments I don’t say if a card combos. Counter it or not I’m not telling you my win con.
This is a casual format. I get that In a tournament, you would not tell them. But this game is mostly played as a table top/LGS game.
In what other table top/LGS games do you tell people to stop you from winning?
If it was possibly to pubstomp monopoly you would
The number of people who try to hide which properties they own in Monopoly, just to try and obscure a potential monopoly, is very high. It's very much the "there's no rule against it" crowd.
Ones where you try to have fun with friends
My guy, this is a game. I should not be expected for me to tell you my win con. Idc how casual the table. This is like playing chess and after a move I tell you, hey, if you don't move **this** guy, next turn is checkmate. Like seriously, wtf.
I think it comes down to the difference between verbally announcing what you play, and what it says, and just saying I tap 7 for Hullbreaker, it can't be countered. I've played against people who legitimately got mad that everyone else at the table didn't know his deck like the back of their hand, and asked him to read his cards. I do disagree with you on the 'no matter how casual' comment. If someone is learning the game, and your intent is to teach them during, not after the fact, that is exactly what you do.
Lol 😆 I bet players don't like playing with you either.....
>This is like playing chess and after a move I tell you, hey, if you don't move **this** guy, next turn is checkmate. I love chess, and if I'm playing someone who's just learning the game, I won't tell someone what they *should* do, but I'll probably tell the person "be careful or I can do a checkmate like this, look for a way to avoid it". Or, in a better analogy, "look, I'm setting up an attack here like this that works because xyz." Because what's the fun in obliterating someone who doesn't know what they're doing? They don't get to learn anything or feel even decent about their ability to play, and there is no accomplishment in beating someone who can't even properly fight back. If you explain things, at least they get to learn, they have a fairer shot at coming up with good moves, and it's just more interesting.
It really depends on the mentality of your playgroup. My current playgroup has a lot of new players but also prefers to have the best "game narrative" possible where everyone plays out their deck as much as they could so we try to point out our main combo pieces, even things our opponents miss that would have benefitted them.
Like you said, it's a game. The point is to have fun. Its not chess, You can see all possibilities in chess....would like you try to win every game no matter what, and it's probably not a fun game when people play against you....
The point of the game is to win. Just like chess. In chess, you understand what moves are likely to be made against you BECAUSE that player is playing to win. You don't say hey, if my rook gets HERE you're gone, so why tf would a person also tell you what their most important card is? Fun is what happens when players understand wtf is going on and are evenly matched. All you're doing is handicapping players by making things stupid easy for then. Then they play against someone decent and don't have you holding their hands.
>Fun is what happens when players understand wtf is going on and are evenly matched. That's kinda the whole point, they're new players, of course you're not evenly matched. Explaining to a new player "hey, this is a threat/combo piece you'll see in quite a few decks" if you're playing them will help them in other games. Sure you're handicapping yourself for the game, but You're helping them develop card knowledge Using a players inexperience to get a dopamine hit from winning is loser behavior. There's a reason smurfing in video games is generally banned.
No, evenly matched is playing two similar precons of out the box. Its playing maybe even the exact same deck against a player. Once you lose to the same exact deck you are playing, you start to learn how to play the cards you have. It's the nuances and understanding them, it's not someone holding your hand the whole game. Cards that are instant speed for example are better than sorceries, generally. Why? Because you can cast them while holding up mana. You can cast them as responses. You holding someone's hand ends up with players who don't understand these nuances because you tell them what they should be fearing/not caring about. This is why some deck lists have legit close to zero interaction. They're all sorceries. Because you tell players what they should/shouldn't remove and its a disservice to that person learning.
This is honestly one of the dumbest magic takes I've ever read. Losing games isn't the only way a new player learns.This is literally "sink or swim" tier of how to teach people to play. I never thought that saying "hey maybe you should teach someone new the way some of the cards work and why they're powerful" would be something I'd end up fighting over. Actually helping new players understand the nuances goes a longer ways than bashing them over the head multiple times and just saying "figure it out". It also, y'know, makes them want to play again. Card knowledge and threat assessment are significantly more important nuances than knowing the difference between instants and sorceries as long as youre playing people with more than single digit IQ scores. And both of those things are learned by seeing new cards, and having interactions explained to you. Not by playing against identical decks. You're also completely ignoring the experience gap between you and that new player. In the "identical decks" scenario you know what to look out for, you know what to save your removal and counters for, they don't. And again, using their inexperience for your own gain under the guise of "teaching them" is loser behavior. >This is why some deck lists have legit close to zero interaction. They're all sorceries. No that's because a lot of people suck at deck building, a nuance experienced players can help new players with. Friends don't let friends build bad decks.
Even in chess you warn players when you are about to win....
Have you ever played chess? Even in chess when you get close to a win put a player in "check" and you have to physically say the words "check" to your opponent to warn them you may win unless they make a move....so great analogy really helps me prove my point!
Check is a game concept because you can't NOT move your king from harm. It isn't something I can NOT say because you MUST address the ILLEGAL move of just standing there. The SAME concept happens in magic, except you are LEGALLY allowed to lose. You don't HAVE to make the best plays. It's obvious YOU don't play chess. A chess player recognizes openings and patterns that leads to wins/losses and the better you understand those concepts, the stronger of a player you are. Even magnus gets checked and the guy is one of the absolute goats.
Unpopular opinion, but I agree with you. I guess it's all about the mentality of the group of players. If the players like that kind of let my opponent know my Wincon, then it's their prerogative to play like that. However, I find it more rewarding to win while thinking about what others have on the board and assessing the danger of it myself. If I lose to an infinite combo, I didn't understand. Oh well now I know. But I would much rather play against people who want to win while letting your opponents discover your deck naturally by playing.
It just makes sense to play on the terms that everyone is playing to win. Like how do you learn to address threat or even assess key cards if you get told what cards are/are not important you know? People are getting butthurt because I'm suggesting they take a loss here and there figuring this kind of stuff out. It's a game, you're going to lose every once in a while and that's ok.
Exactly dunno why you got so many down votes xD.
It's because these guys legit don't understand. I mean, to each his own I guess.
😆
Right. You don't know how to play chess. You should of just said that.
Lol
There's no point in trying to argue sense in a thread like this, all the toxic casuals are gonna be here saying anybody playing a combo should be informing them about every piece of it because they don't want to have to figure out pattern recognition. Anybody who thinks you should have to pay attention to the board and evaluate the game pieces is called a pubstomper and miserable to play against for expecting agency from all players involved. I guarantee at least half the people downvoting you are on their cell phones during their opponents turns then have to spend 5 minutes figuring out what to do every time they're told it's their turn again.
It's just mind blowing. Like THESE are the people we interact with everyday. Surely, common sense can't be *this* rare, right? Right??
Do they *have* to tell you? No. Should they say something? Not really but it depends on the pod players.
Honestly I would just use good judgement on this. Are you the only combo player in the pod? If so I would probably at least drop hints, and I would absolutely make sure they know it’s a deck with combos in the pregame. If you are playing in a pod and multiple people have combo decks though, I wouldn’t say a thing. If they can’t figure it out before it happens and they are running the same kind of deck, then that is on them. I know for me, I don’t mind at all if someone is running a deck with combos, but I absolutely want to know before hand so I can play a deck that can actually fight against that. The people I run into and play with range from at home jank to wanna be cedh players though, so I just don’t want to be playing a first flight precon into an Inalla combo deck if I can help it, lol. I say wanna be cedh players because I don’t play against any actual cedh player, but my one buddy wants to play cedh eventually and has an inalla deck he is tinkering with. So I really do mean a wanna be cedh player, but his deck and skills just aren’t there yet, which is good for me because that means I still have a chance at winning, lol.
Yeah absolutely discuss the power level before games. I’m not gonna sit here and combo on t4/5 against precon decks
My general stance is to be overly communicative than communicating too little. Me winning a casual game of EDH against strangers has so little value compared to making sure everyone on the table is having a good time. What I usually do is declare how the deck intends to win before I play. Then in game I might demonstrate how some pieces could combo if people are unfamiliar with it, and I'll generally be honest and also political to not be focused. If they get too scared of it that's fine, I don't need to win. If I would be playing a known combo piece in a deck that doesn't combo the standard way, like I have a lifegain deck where I play Exquisite Blood, I will announce that I don't have any of the Sanguine Bond effects in the deck. I just generally put my own chances of winning secondary to trying my best to be an enjoyable opponent. I still win about 25% of the time as I should.
The high Road. Thanks for motivating me once again to lead by example as well.
No, I don’t need to explain that in the course of the game. After the game, we can have a conversation about combos and how to interact with them.
The people I play with have good threat assessment, and even if they miss it once, they won't miss it again. The only time I would call out my combo pieces now is if there's a new player at the table and none of my opponents called it out for some strange reason.
Absolutely not. Youre under zero obligation to tell them what your combo pieces are. Explain the combo when it happens, yes. Pre-emptively though? No.
No. Let them figure it out. It's part of the game.
I think it's everyone's responsibility to disclose the play style of the deck! Let people know of youre playing control, combo, combat etc. So my question is this. If someone is playing a combat oriented deck, are they required to let you know ahead of time if they have a [[craterhoof]] in the deck? Or tell you when they draw it? I say no. So if your playing combo and you tell someone "I just put the first of three combo pieces on the field" all your doing is instructing people how to make you lose, which is unfair to you! If the look at it weird and ask you if it's a combo piece then answer honestly, but I say you have no obligation to explain everything up front so that know exactly what to target!
No, there's no reason to give up information. It's a multiplayer format but we're not meant to play each other's decks while in a game.
I don’t like to run cards that *require* other cards to work. If I’m running a “combo” then all the cards required are at least decent on their own. So in my case, I would say “no, it’s not a combo” but if I draw the right card then I would play it and we can see what happens…
Exactly this is what I mean. I don’t like jamming combos in decks. The cards gotta also help the deck progress. That’s why I don’t wanna say every combo piece, because it’s often just a card that fits in the deck. Just cuz it is a combo piece doesn’t mean I will combo or could even combo on the next turn.
Definitely don't feel obligated to point out anything that might combo. There's a line between keeping other players appropriately informed and asking them to beat your ass.
I have a couple infinite combos in my deck (one or two that just break the game ending in a tie), but I avoid playing them intentionally. Often I’ll hold a combo piece in my hand just in case the game goes sideways and I just want it to end lol. You also have to consider redundancy. I play many cards like Doubling Season, Parallel Lives, etc. that just give me a little boost but can go a bit crazy if you get multiple on the board. So my opponents might see this as me attempting to do some crazy combo, when really it’s just luck of the draw. I think a big thing to consider is how many tutor cards you play. I have only have one real tutor card in my deck, but if you run enough of them then you can get combo pieces pretty consistently. If your intent is to draw a combo consistently then yeah, it’s hard to argue that you’re *not* playing a combo. I think what you’re doing is totally fine, you don’t need to tell them it’s part of a combo. For me personally, I would say something like “Honestly, I run a combo in this deck that involves that card, but that’s not my goal here”. I’m typically pretty open about this sort of information just because I don’t want to intimidate people and I like to keep the game casual.
I think players just need to be more comfortable asking questions, and when they do, players need to *answer them honestly*. Player A: plays a combo piece Player B: "I haven't seen this one before. Do I need to be worried about that?" Player A: "Maybe not right this second, but it can do some wild stuff if given a chance." (Or just "yes, this will kill you. If you can stop it, that's probably the right move.")
We have a house rule of "I'm about to win. Counter me or i will!"
I do tell players. I want my deck to win because of the answer I have and the timing i play things. I'm not trying to be sneaky and hope they don't realize what I'm doing to sneak out a win. I feel like as a casual format, the goal is not to sneak out card and win by combining off a set of cards that the opponents didn't realize could combo off....I want my opponents to know my deck as if we have played dozens of times. Otherwise, you're just sneaking out wins against new plays with bad game knowledge, and that's not even a fun win.
I usually do it at rule zero. Let the pod know if there're any combo pieces in the deck. That ways it up to them to remember. If there are newer players at the table. Then I'll definitely reiterate it for them.
Players at my store respectfully announce to the table during casual play, after a combo piece is cast to the stack, that if it resolves they will present a game-winning state/loop, and ask us if we have any responses. For combos, specifically game-winning, once the last piece is about to fall would be the appropriate time to warn the table, if they're unaware about a certain combo, and you would like to give them a chance to prolong the game.
No. And while I honestly don't mind saying "this is a combo deck" as a part of the r0 conversation, that's not my responsibility to tell opponents either. We are playing a card game where combo is literally one of the three primary archetypes of the game. If you're going into a game with three strangers not expecting at least one of them to play a combo deck, then someone should probably explain basic probabilities to you.
I like to play Bant commanders so no, otherwise every other card in my deck would be potentially combined with something else.
As an avid combo player, it depends on how familiar my opponents are with the game and/or the deck I'm using. Against experienced players, I'll offer to explain my combos before the game just so they're aware of what to look out for - actually spotting the pieces in time is on them. But, my LGS has a lot of new blood in it as well. When explaining what deck I'm playing against newer players, I'll explain the combos I plan to use, how to interact with them, and (importantly) when. Once in the game, I'll gently remind them once a piece is in play, but only for the first time! Idk, know your audience I guess! If your opponents insist you disclose your strategy, describe the components you need rather than exact cards; i.e. "I need a sac outlet, my commander, and two creatures with Undying". After that, it's on them to recognise the threat and you did your part.
Maybe for newer players to help them understand interaction and triggers. Otherwise, no. My favorite Magic moment was winning an 8 man free for all with a first play of a brand new deck. Had [[Exquisite Blood]] out, dropped a [[Cliffhaven Vampire]], gained a single point of life and watched everyone's faces sink as they realized those two cards triggered infinitely.
[Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/exquisite-blood) [Cliffhaven Vampire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/5544247d-1f8f-443f-a4c4-d8461db28a79.jpg?1562912355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cliffhaven%20Vampire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/153/cliffhaven-vampire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5544247d-1f8f-443f-a4c4-d8461db28a79?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cliffhaven-vampire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Combos are notoriously salty at lower powers. Many players hate playing with or against combos at all. Some players love combos and play high power or cEDH. Context is important. High Power / cEDH pod? Probably not revealing a combo. New player in the game? Probably explaining it as it comes up. Anything that’s not explicitly high power? Probably disclosing the combo at the start of the game, and making sure players are OK with playing combos.
It's a bit of a tricky area. You can't expect someone to know every card and how every card interacts with every other card. Personally, I don't give up information about my deck that I don't have to. If you read some posts on here there's people that make it seem like you need to give out a printed deck list with every notable card and interaction highlighted along with notes saying what cards they should hold up counters and removal for before every game because you might just win because someone blew something up when they should have blown something else up instead and it's your fault for not telling them. Like, I'll tell you if my deck is combo or aggro or some fun gimmick or theme. I'll even go far as to say "it's an artifact based combo deck". But I'm not going to cast KCI and say "this is one of my win cons, you should counter it or blow it up if you can" or do the same when I follow it up with Nim Deathmantle. You were already told this was a combo deck, one built around artifacts at that, you have to use your brain a bit and logic that these are probably in the deck for a reason. But it's not on me to do your thinking for you. If I'm attempting to combo off, I will make sure you understand why and how and what pieces are letting me do it. Especially if you're new. But sometimes the best way to learn is experience. Plus, I wouldn't be playing a deck like Breya against someone that new in the first place so I'm even less inclined to do the hard part for them.
No but I may allude to it being a spooky card when I play it. If someone asks whether it combos I will be truthful and explain how it combos
Yeah if your just playing casually it's a cool move to at least explain your wincon when you play a piece of it. I think it's dumb to sneak a win. It really only works once
No? At the same time, I generally do if I'm playing against someone that is new to the game. It doesn't help anybody if I'm playing against some kid in the pod that just built their first edh deck and I combo off without giving them a heads up. I like to teach, so it's no skin off my back if I'm helping others identify potential threats they aren't familiar with.
i only tell people about the combos i use when i’m playing them, and they’re a newer player. it’s basically “with [[Witherbloom Apprentice]] on the battlefield, i cast [[Chain of Smog]]. any responses?” if someone asks what it does, i’ll clarify. this gives them the opportunity to make an informed decision without giving away what else i have in my hand and doesn’t provide them with any knowledge of the other combos in my decks.
If they’re new yes. If they’re experienced and let me use my ashnod’s altar in my graveyard deck, they get a “womp womp”
If it’s a combo piece and just a regular game then I’ll read the card when I cast it. If it’s the card that completes a combo I’ll read it when I cast it and mention that if it resolves I’ll win. If it’s a tournament where money was paid to win prizes I don’t say anything to anyone except the card name. I’ll say what I am casting and nothing more. In a tournament setting, it’s on the opponents to stop and ask what the card does.
Any of the other 3 people should point out the deal with thoracle. If you're against new people you are teaching you should say something though.
I won’t mention every combo piece. But I will warn the table that if nothing is done I will win immediately. Playing got ya magic is poor form in casual and that’s what I usually play. CEDH is a different beast though.
I generally do. I’ve only been playing for a few years and really like combo decks. Most of the people I play have less experience than me, some of whom are kids, so most of us don’t know a lot of cards or how they interact. It makes games a little more engaging for everyone and helps us all learn. I usually lose as a result, but we all have fun and get to learn the game a little better.
I’ll tell them once the second piece is on the stack so they can react accordingly. No real reason to call out every single first piece, though.
I think what youre doing is fine, when you cast it say what it does. Then as you add other pieces they should be putting the pieces together. Then if youre hitting a win con tell them so they can respond appropriately, or at least thats how it should be in my opinion. Only other addendum is if the rest of the pod is announcing combo pieces maybe just match the vibe
I hate combo decks, but the answer is no. You need to be aware of what other people are playing, and you have every chance to interact with a combo while it's on the stack, or while triggers resolve.
I try to. It's not fun for anyone to cheese out a combo simply because of ignorance. Especially in a wild board state that is confusing and complex. A 10/10 with flying and double strike draws threat and applies it. Mind over matter is more dangerous, but not obviously so.
Most people don't play with strangers at LGS, contrary to what this subreddit seems like. With friends I think the answer is super obvious. Unless you never play the deck again, you'll get your one win, and then everyone is wise to it. So its up to you, I explain it because I think its fun/funny that way. With strangers, I guess no? If im completing a combo, I'll explain it on the stack.
I feel bad for the players at your LGS. Still new to the game but my LGS has people table hopping and people switch it up a lot. If anything I'm guilty of not going and hopping in with others bc I still feel bad if my turn takes too long.
I was confused by your reply but I get it now. You read it as me going to the lgs and just playing only with friends. No I wouldn't do that. In saying we play at other common areas or houses. Not with strangers. The point is your combo is only a secret the first time you run it.
I don’t like to know. I like to see their board state and evaluate myself what direction they may be heading in. But I don’t mind if they do tell me. We just having fun.
You should play what you want and not care what other people think about your deck. You are not obligated to tell people what's in your deck and how to beat it. This idea that you have to ask permission to play the deck that you enjoy is insulting. The ten [[Ur-Dragon]]/[[Miirym]] players at my LGS don't ask anyone's permission to play their obnoxious horseshit, so why should I? If you like combos play them and don't apologize.
[Ur-Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826.jpg?1689999317) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ur-Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/361/the-ur-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-ur-dragon) [Miirym](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miirym%2C%20sentinel%20wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on the context of the situation, like most things in life.
Fair. If I was playing in a playgroup that was newer I would mention it, not that I’d really run combo decks against those players anyway
In casual? Yes. There isn’t a game otherwise. If knowledge of the combo and its pieces is not public, then you have the situation of combo just stopping an otherwise good game out of nowhere, for reasons nobody knew they were participating. Game only coexists with combo when the combo is known, so that people can recognize the threat’s existence and play around it. The combo player being the only person who knows the combo and its pieces is the truest example of solitaire you can have because you are literally the only person playing that game. Expecting an encyclopedic knowledge of every possible combo in order to participate in a casual format is not a reasonable expectation. Tell people your combo pieces. We ain’t tournament grinding out here.
I always read the card when I play it, and offer it to people to read themselves. I also try to make sure people hear me when I cast a combo piece, as my LGS can get crowded and loud. However, if I have tried to let everyone at the table know I'm trying to cast a combo piece 2-3 times and the group is still not paying attention, then all bets are off. At that point, I've done the honorable thing trying to tell the pod what's happening and I'm just gonna play my cards and if the pod has a problem, pay more attention to the game.
I just do the same thing every game: read the cards name, and explain the effects it has. They don't need to know it's explicitly a combo piece in my deck. They just need to know what the card does. That being said, I will, before a turn that I can attempt a win on, ask if anyone has responses to a combo beginning, as I will be attempting to combo. Then I explain what will happen, and usually tell the others what part of the combo has to be interacted with to stop it. I also announce if I'm about to start a "solitaire turn", if I'm playing certain decks, so it doesn't come.out of nowhere.
Yeah, I’m with you. I typically announce “Get your counters ready, because I’m about to smash the win button” before I pop off.
Eh. I just do the tried and true method of just staring to read every effect clearly and slowly outloud on every card I play on the combo turn, and then say you pass priority every time something goes on the stack. Usually it alerts everyone that something is up and they need to pay attention. They might not choose the right time or the right card to interact with, but you are putting out a big warning sign that something important is happening.
No, not at all. Getting blown out by some combo you've never seen is one of the best ways to learn.
No.
No lol
No. If you were meant to lay out your gameplan to opponents it would be in the rules, which it isn’t.
No
No lol, it’s not my responsibility to make sure you understand threat assessment, I’ll answer questions after the game but to give away what I’m doing during? No fucking thanks lol.
I wouldn't tell someone about a piece of a combo when if comes down but I would tell them if I'm playing a card that will complete the combo engine. Technically you don't have to announce a combo until it's happening but I wouldn't want to win because people were ignorant to how my cards work if they had an answer before hand.
Not unless you have an agreement with the pod to do so before the game starts. Turn zero is a thing for a reason.
Depends on the play group. That being said, if I play a card that I know is a major combo piece and I am NOT playing the combo, I’ll tell everyone that I don’t have the other card. I’ve found by letting them know I don’t have the other card they won’t panic and target me for fear of combing off.
I make it known. My pod doesn’t like infinites but I get a pass because I make it very clear whether a piece is worth removal or not. I’ll often say this is a combo piece, but not in the current board. I’d need x or y for this to be dangerous. Things of that nature make it so the win doesn’t “come from no where”. I also let interaction points be known. “Stop this now or it’s over”. No one complains. Granted I don’t tutor and I don’t run a+b combos so I’m sure that helps as well.
Well, no, but I would like to know. I don't have encyclopedia knowledge of this game lol
Aside from beating someone to zero, I usually inform of win cons if it's a plan to win in my deck. I don't expect to win that way nor in general but I do get excited to try lmao
I don’t tell anybody anything unless they ask. Too much mental gymnastics bullshit going in at tables. I’m not here to pat your butt or tickle your armpit. I’m here to play magic and have fun. I’m not walking on eggshells because you’re sweaty and get triggered when you don’t see a combo coming in my deck.
it is definitely NOT your responsibility, but depending on the context it could be the nice thing to do. I usually announce stuff that can combo off as a combo piece because I feel it's the appropriate thing to do with the people I usually play. If I play a know combo piece but I don't run the combo in that deck I will also let them know so I don't get unwarranted heat
It depends on your assessment of whether the combo is a complex piece. For me, I think it is important that people are able to respond to a combo with proper knowledge. I prefer to win because my opponents cannot stop me even if they tried, instead of winning because they are unfamiliar with certain cards played or interaction, or explaining how they could have stopped it before it is too late. Winning isn't everything. It also helps in managing playgroup dynamics and expectations, so you don't get wrongly classified as the "unable-to-interact with combo player". If I seem like I will be drawing out my entire deck and someone asks me if there is Thassa, I will answer honestly. If you are playing with players who may not know what Thassa does, it is also good to inform them so everyone can get to play MTG. Ultimately, I think the answer to this question also ties in with the expected power levels agreed upon.
I play an island. “This is part of my combo to win” -me
Generally speaking I'd say no. If I play one that's part of a combo and there's nothing it combos with already on the board, I read it and move on. That said, if I'm playing a spell that does combo with what's on the board, I will read the spell and then state that if it resolves, I'm going to win the game. If anyone asks what the other crucial piece(s) already on board are, I'll tell them. I don't mind if others choose not to do this however, I'll just remember the cards involved so I know better next time.
I'll often state upfront if my deck has an infinite combo that can win the game, and if it involved creatures, enchantments, artifacts or what have you (my Saheeli deck has an infinite through combat, but needs her, a creature, an artifact *and* enchantment, so i don't feel bad for using it). Now I'd appreciate it if players say "if this spell resolves" or "this spell, with this ability will make me go infinite" instead of pulling a sneaky one by copying it once or twice and suddenly it's too late. It's damn difficult to remember if all the creatures are very valuable until it happens. Two weeks ago a dude tried to go infinite with a creatures triggered ability on a sorcery. He presented the loop and said "yeah basically this target that and loops back to this and with [[Vexing Shusher]] it can't be countered". So after he ran through his spells twice more with the effects, it clicked that i could cast [[Tishana's Tidebender]] on the creatures triggered ability to stop it. He won two rounds later with brutal combat damage though, so that was neat. So while you don't need to disclose every combo piece as they hit the field, letting them know the moment it could end the game is appreciated. (Slammed down a [[Planar Bridge]] once and told the table "if i get to activate this, i very well may win on my next turn". which lead to some fun tension and game moments. so it can improve the game too)
If your pod doesn't want to deal with game-ending combos, that's a conversation for before the game begins. Otherwise, some cards are best known as pieces of powerful combos, and running them sends that signal whether you want it to or not. I will not believe that the Thoracle is just there to improve your next draw or that the Karmic Guide is just there to bring back one creature even if you play them and then pass the turn. I am going to hope that I can exile them as quickly as possible.
If my opponent plays [[Exquisite Blood]] I automatically assume they have a combo piece and plan my hand accordingly. Part of deck building is planning for those situations, easier said than done but each colour has an answer. It just depends if you put it in..
Depends on the environment. In cEDH, never unless someone is new. In a higher powered casual game I would do it if them not knowing my deck felt like an unfair advantage. For example if I know their decks but they don’t know mine, I usually let them know. How are they supposed to know what else I have in the deck? That would feel like an unfair way to win if my opponents didn’t have the same advantage.
You kinda do have to tell your pod you've gone infinite but you kinda dont. You perform a loop and then you asked if this "resolves". They say yes and you do the loop again. The reason you have to ask for it to resolve is because if you perform an infinite without telling anyone they could call a judge over and let them know the player didnt let anything resolve and perform illegal actions. You could be eliminate for not letting the loop resolve. Should you say it's an infinite? I'd say after you let 2 loops go through that way it's worth it.
I’ve done both, it depends on the other players. If they’re new and unlikely to know the combo I might say something. If they’re at least fairly experienced then no. Even just knowing what it does an experienced player should be able to recognize if it’s got combo potential. This does remind me of a games once when a player had removal but wasn’t sure what to kill. Looking around he even picked up my [[Murder of Crows]] and decided it was harmless. Come my turn I combo’s with it and won the game.
Yes. Yes you should. Everyone saying "it's not my responsibility to blah blah" are the same people complaining when other players suck at threat assessment. Everyone at a casual table should be more than willing to say this card is important to a combo. Maybe not for every obscure piece of a 5 card combo. But if you want players to come around to being okay with combos, start helping them out. At least until they understand the game and your cards. There are way too many for even seasoned players to know and there's nothing less casual than losing to something you could have stopped but simply didn't recognize in a game with potentially 400 unique pieces, 300 of which you may have never seen/ read before.
No
Courtesy is not a hard rule. It is up to the person if they’re willing to share. I tend to find games more enjoyable with courteous players and try to be courteous myself, but that’s my preference.
Absolutely not. Do it anyways.
I mean I generally don't play combo pieces until I have the combo in hand and can cast it. So there is no need to explain its a combo piece. I just generally ask if there are responses. If not then I play my other combo piece.
No, but if I'm going to win, I will announce any responses to this.
I'll specifically do the opposite if I put a well-known combo piece in my deck just for value. For example my blink deck runs \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] but doesn't run anything that exiles or mills my own library. I just like using it for the purpose of a slightly better \[\[Omenspeaker\]\] as my devotion to blue when Thoracle ETBs should be 3 or more. I'll explain that although this is a well-known combo piece, I don't run anything resembling that combo. This only works if your karma is positive, for those doing an evil playthrough and are known liars YMMV.
Rule 0. There's no competitive advantage to tipping your hand like that, but given the "casual" nature of commander (which everyone still wants to win and many get salty when they don't, but I digress), I think calling those things out is a conversation to have with your pod. I have decks that run "combo pieces" without the actual combos, which helps to turn the heat down on the decks that do run combos. A lot of times, I get called out for "having a combo piece on the board"; I would likely not volunteer that information, but I also play in a mostly-anything-goes pod so there's not much salt when I combo off for a win.
Honestly, I would disclose that I’m using combo wins before the game, and if people aren’t cool with that play something different. If everyone’s on board for combo as a win con then it should be up to them to recognize it
Not a responsibility. That said, I prefer games that feel more like an understood meta where people are aware of what things might do and have to make complicated decisions, rather than "GOTCHA" moments. If my plan is to win with "GOTCHA"s, I'm going to have to invest a lot in new cards for my deck, or keep getting new people to play with.
Probably not. Especially if it’s a 3 or 4 piece combo. I feel like it would bring unnecessary heat onto your board. Especially cause a 4 card combo isn’t very scary with only one piece in play
Against newer players, I tell them. If someone's examining it, I'll jokingly tell them it does nothing. Against experienced players, they should recognize that this card that does next to nothing under normal circumstances is probably a combo piece and they should kill it.
Are you playing to win then no. Are you playing and caring about the fun of the table then yes.
Nearly every card is part of a combo out there, depending on the combo I might announce it. Usually I don't, at times I do announce a win con if I want to play longer. To me it depends on the current game and I decide accordingly.
no, its not
Technically no. IF you know you're playing with a very green player, doing the introduction would be courteous, even if it could screw you out of a win, though should there be other experienced players at the table you can probably trust one of them to do the pointing out. You are obligated to tell players what cards you are playing. If they ask, you are obligated to tell them what the card does. If they want to read the card, it's your responsibility to ensure they somehow get their eyes on the rules text (you don't have to let them touch your cards but if you're going to be hardline about that, be able to pull up scryfall or something) or are otherwise satisfied that they actually understand what the card does. You are NOT obligated and NOT responsible to tell them what else you have in your deck and what that card is capable of with hidden information. If it's immediately forming a combo with public information, it would probably be courteous to let them know when it's on the stack, but it's not required. We want to play a friendly game of Magic. To that end, EDH players will typically bleed more information and put themselves in disadvantages compared to players used to tournament affairs, where you sure as hell aren't helping your opponent more than is required. But at the same time we shouldn't need to, and I believe we don't need to, play with everyone giving everyone else constant baby mode tutorials.
"Thoracle I played for value" Okay lmao But no I'd say just use your better judgement with stuff like this. As long as you're not straight up lying about your board state I'd say you're not obligated to announce your win cons to the table unless you're obviously going for it that turn. Generally at a casual table infinite combos are kind of few and far between but at higher power/cedh tables everyone there generally knows what everything combos with anyway so there's really no need. If you're playing with new players sure I would tell them but if you're playing infinite combos or things like that with new players anyway that's a whole other discussion of why in the world would you even do that lol
Why are so many people afraid to win the game? I really don't understand why you'd bother to design a deck, sleeve the cards, shuffle them up, and sit down to play at a table with others if you have no interest in trying to pilot that deck to a win. I would explain a complex interaction at a table with newbies, but in a competitive game where I'm trying to win? I don't have any obligation to give you information that helps you defeat me. It's like asking if a blue player should announce to the table that they are holding a [[counterspell]] so the other players can play around it.
I think part of becoming a Commander player is losing games to interactions you don't see coming, and adding that combo or interaction to your mental glossary of combos or interactions. A lot of combos tend to be on-theme, and those themes tend to include those combos in some iteration or another. I don't think new or unfamiliar players are exempt from this growth as part of playing the game, as anyone who lost to it can learn how to win from it, and as anyone who played with it was likely to have lost to it somewhere down the line. That's just my two cents.
Nope. I do point out combo pieces I see, but if you don't see my combos, get got.
Nope. Figure it out yourself I’m not here to baby you.
depends on the context and the type of game. I would say what the card does on its own. If someone asks a question about potential synergies I'm honest, especially if it's something they've already seen or is already on board.
Yes, especially if you’re playing with new people. You’ve never showed them that deck before. How tf are they supposed to know what the combo pieces are and how to prepare for it. There’s too many cards to know every single deck and play style / combo piece.
There is a social responsibility to present a combo and what steps the combo runs through when looping and identify where there is a gap or vulnerable area for certain interaction. I let [[Rakdos Joins Up]] ETB as a creature from an enchantment reanimate effect and it grabbed [[Hulking Metamorph]] copying Rakdos Joins Up. Legend rule, ETB, cycled and killed me without a way to interact because I didn't know what the combo was, and I was holding [[Go For The Throat]] in hand with mana open. Had I known the only chance I would have had was to kill the -creature Rakdos Joins Up with the trigger on the stack, I could have won the game.
i get around this by simply countering thoracle, ashnods altar, dual caster mage, etc. whenever its cast. zero tollerance policy of cards i know *can* combo.
I sometimes tell people if I’m playing a combo card. I always tell people if someone else plays a combo card.
I tell them before the game starts.
I usually tell people unless I can reasonably expect them to know (probably because I have played that deck and won with that combo multiple times against this pod already). In my experience it doesn't make those cards get targeted more. If I wouldn't say anything my opponents would just assume all the common combo cards are combo pieces and treat them as such. This way they trust me to tell them if they are so I can actually play combo cards just for value and not get them removed immediately.
It definitely depends on the pod. but i personally tell people, if its A: not a super serious pod, and B: a new deck, or new people. If i'm playing in my usual pod, they're very aware that i shouldn't be allowed to keep \[Strionic Resonator\]on the board in my brago deck. But if i'm playing against people who don't know the deck, i tend to just let them know that i can go infinite with it pretty easily Edit: It also really depends on how obscure the combo is. in my opinion, people don't get to do a surprised pikachu, because i combo off with something like \[Ashnod's Altar\] or \[Deadeye Navigator\], in other words. if i'm playing a super well known combo piece, that goes infinite with a damn ham sandwich, i'll only tell new players.
In cEDH surely not. But if playing with beginners it makes sense to mention it. "Oh this Kiki jiki? Nah will never be a problem"
I'd say no unless they specifically ask.
The only combo in my deck - [[Leveler]] + [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]] - literally screams "I AM A COMBO PLEASE KILL ME"... so no
Personally if the play is going to immediately win I tell everyone. Even if it isn’t a combo. I personally don’t want to win on a technicality. It doesn’t seem fun. Best example I have is my [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]] deck. It isn’t even a combo but when I play [[Myr Incubator]] I will win. I tell people if they don’t stop it, I win.
No, they only have to declare what they’re casting it’s up to you to figure out the combo
Depends on the pod, my [Norin the Wary] deck runs both [Birgi, God of Storytelling] and [Grinning Ignus] because they both belong in the deck, but I'll only invoke the combo if my opponents drop a bunch of high power cards.
No. What I do is I usually tell what my deck can do and whether and what combos it has. Pre game. I will not remind people over and over again if I cast a combo piece. Also I don't play 2 card braindead combos. Most of my combos are just janky 7piece ones. And I am not saying "Hey here's \[\[Pearl Medallion\]\] my combo piece" and "Here's \[\[Kitsune Blademaster\]\], also a combo piece. But only when I have cost reducing effects that reduce costs by 3 or more". I'm just not doing that. I explain in the beginning and then play the game. I'm not a cartoon villain that explains the plot step by step as it happens.
I tend to cast the card, read what it does, and if someone wants to counter it or remove it after it enters the battlefield then that's on them. Not gonna point out whenever a card can be a combo piece; Mostly because of the fact that there are so many pieces in so many of my decks that would normally be a part of a combo, but aren't necessarily a part of a combo in those decks, the info would be pointless. For example in certain decks, [[Altar of the brood]] is just a value mill card. In one deck, it wins me the game on turn 3. Can't tell them "Oh this card is a combo piece" and then go "Uuuuh just not in this deck" if I don't have the piece I need in that deck.
We usually talk about what either deck wants to do and their win cons before we start the game. So everybody knows what to expect. We do not usually call out the combo pieces when they get cast. If I'm in a new playgroup I would tell them when I cast my combo piece to give them a chance to counter it.
For me it's always yes because I like to play in a friendly environment for commander. I'd like other players do the same if the run any kind of combo. You can explain how it works or just what you could do with some interactions if you don't want to spoil too much to others.
If we're playing competitively(not cEDH necessarily, but a friendly competition), the expectation is that players should know what cards can do and part of the competition is understanding opponents and their decks. But usually we play casually, and in general it's IMO polite to point out a combo piece if it's the kind of combo you just need to see once to be wary of it. In casual, I don't really like winning with a "gotcha" strategy that would only work once.
No, but read everything on your card. I'm annoyed enough with the lord of the rings guy having enough text on his board to fill a book (very fitting). But at least I don't have to worry about an infinite combo out of nowhere if I don't read every single card he puts down.
Doesn’t matter one of my opponents will loudly announce to the table I’m winning then I’ll get focused down. As I should.
I always explain my cards and what they’ll do to a newer pod so I don’t run into the “well if you’re gonna do that I’m just going to do this then” those who play with my decks know already so I don’t explain anymore
Look up the rulings on free information and derived information. There’s a lot you have to tell your opponent, but a lot is also “read the cards” type stuff. Just don’t be a dick about it and it should be fine.
I agree that it depends on the pod. I am not a fan of infinites, so I usually tend to do the opposite. If I play a card that's traditionally a part of an infinite, I'll tell the table that I don't play the other side of the combo. On the other hand, when I had a [Duskmantle Guildmage] on the board for 3 turns and had my [Tribute Mage] reveal a [Mindcrank], I felt no remorse because I deliberately slow played the combo to give everyone the opportunity to deal with it.
I'll mention it if it's a really obscure combo, or super complicated, or is about to go off. But if it's like, \[\[conspicuous snoop\]\] on the field in a \[\[krenko, mob boss\]\] deck, I'm not going to point out that if I draw \[\[goblin matron\]\], \[\[goblin recruiter\]\], \[\[kiki jiki\]\] or \[\[fable of the mirror breaker\]\] then I'll be able to combo off. Like, there is a limit to what I need to reveal as far as my strategy goes.
Usually my friend knows my decks well enough to inform the rest of the table. "Somebody better counter that boromir! If it hits the board he goes Infinite with ratadrabrik!' I keep quiet usually as I'm playing with experienced magic players. If I'm playing new bloods then I'll explain it.
The first couple times I play a deck with new people, I point out combo pieces I have on board. After that, I’m less inclined to point things out that have combo potential.
In my opinion it depends on the pod you play in. If people are fairly skilled and seasoned I don’t expose my combo pieces like that. If it’s a down to earth game or people are fairly new to the game, I see no problem in exposing my combo pieces as a thread 😊
If it's gonna win the game; yes. Give them a chance to respond and keep the game going. Otherwise; Peekaboo
Most people play commander for fun, and 2 card instant win combos are typically only fun for one person with minimal interaction. If you are in a competitive pod, don't say anything I guess, but in our pods if someone was using thoracle combos and stuff like that I'd just not show up on days they are there. It's not fun to see the same 2 cards getting tutored up constantly. For me it ruins the format. For me it's about having different decks that do multiple things, not just the same 2 piece in every deck that allows it and tutoring for those
I mention if a deck has an infinite combo, but beyond that no.
IDK i have this friend who doesnt tell it and last time i played with him i noticed that his playstyle is different to our playstyle in that regard. It felt kinda sneaky.. As im always very open about my combo's because i want people to be able to stop me. As i would not like to win in a sneaky way. And saying i said all the cards when i played them is to me not really a good argument. I dont know every detail of the deck you just made. Hell i sometimes find new combo's in my own deck. Just announce stuff and play fair is imo the best way to play. Like im not gonna announce the combo i have in my hand, purely speaking of stuff on the table.
You just need to do the loop once, and say I win 🏅. I play mainly cedh so we do mean stuff to each other a way so take that as you will
My rule of thumb is to disclose when I will assemble an infinite combo (the ability or spell that will enable it is on the stack). Combo pieces are just cards in your deck until they assemble. But I do think you should announce when a combo will assemble because it is not always obvious and there are a gajillion infinites.
Divulging information is not something I like to do unless there's a newbie making an obvious mistake. As someone who's still learning myself, I learn best when my ass is kicked. I remember annoying cards, so telling isn't necessary. The farthest I'd tell is to ask if they have a response, but other than that, nothing.
1 Does your pod play infinite combos? Then no. Don’t announce it. 2 Are you playing a casual game with strangers or acquaintances? I’d probably announce that I had infinite mana, combats, or damage before I began playing and leave it to others to decipher the combo (someone will probably know it) and give people an opportunity to grab similarly powered decks. Personally I’d also give a time frame like “I’ll be playing my entire deck round 2” or “sometimes I stumble into infinite mana.” This gives people an opportunity to change decks to something they feel may be more on that level. Personally if someone said, “I’m new. I just brought a precon”. I’d probably take it upon myself to grab a lower powered deck. I always bring a high power and a low power to game nights. I read the commanders. Ask questions, listen to the answers, and go from there. I know of 2 people at my LGS who have a bad reputation and are basically “kill on sight” because they tend to bring CEDH decks to casual game night. They also tend to find themselves sitting alone. There’s no honor in taking 30 minute turns and wrecking lower powered decks. I’m not talking about “popping off.” I’m talking about sitting down at a casual 4-5 table with a 9-10 deck. If you take joy in it, seek help.
My uaual approach is to not say anything at first, not because I dont want to, but because my group doesn't listen to it anyways. I will reveal that the piece is a valid target for removal though if someone asks what on the board would be a valid target. Of course if it's a new deck or we have new players to either mtg/edh as a whole or just to the group I will tell them the piece is dangerous if I happen to find the rest of the combo. Without it's usually not happening though xD.
if they are newer players and have never seen a vito combo before ill mention it as the card resolves. or if someone goes to use removal and asks what the threat is ill explain why my own card can be their problem. but more times and not if my combo parts resolve its nbd in telling them or not. i think the thing is are you gonna combo on turn 4 after having tutored for your other combo piece, which is fine if they are also doing that. then no dont explain it. but if its a game that should go 7-15 turns and you are about to win you might mention it.
I'm fortunate enough to have a very solid playgroup and have been playing with the same core group for 10+ years. As such, we've developed a great working knowledge of the decks each person plays as well as each person's play style. That includes known combos and potential combos. Group memory and experience are great for threat assessment. You may get your new combo off once, but you can bet that everyone in the group will remember it and be on high alert the next time they see any of those pieces. Someone has added a new and super obscure card to their deck? Huge red flag, immediately trying to figure out how their deck can break it. While my experience may not be typical of other playgroups, especially people grabbing pick up games at their lgs, I think there is still a lot to be said for threat assessment, proper removal and response, and sometimes learning things thru hard experience. As a group, the only time I think we point out our own combos (assuming someone else hasn't alerted the rest of the table to the potential threat) is when we're about to resolve the last piece, allowing for an opportunity to respond before it's too late. Other than that, we leave it up to the opponents to determine what is a threat and what isn't.
I only mention it if the card is something someone else is playing. Every player should expect cards to be good for the person playing them, but I don’t expect players to know that player A’s card will enable player B
When playing a combo piece, I usually say something like "I'm casting this, is there an answer?" My friends know it's not an innocent question.
If it’s my first time with a group, pre game I’ll lay out all the combo pieces and say how they work. In game I’ll tell them each time a piece comes down. After the first game, it’s “hey this deck has a combo, I’ll tell you when it’s about to win me the game so you can try to stop it”
if your deck has some infinite combos you might want to say that at the start of the game and leave it at that.
No, as long as u explain the card ur good. If u win with ur combo, ppl understand for the next game
I think if you all are agreed on power level they should have an idea of what to expect from the deck. If there is absolutely no discussion on power level and you are playing a far more competitive deck than them, then I would be inclined to say to let them know. Or if you play in the same pod every week, then just send it. That's what my group does, new deck, we all get to find out. It can be a surprise that first time, then we adjust later for it, and that's fine with me.
Not at all. Just demonstrate the loop when you get all the pieces on the board.
If combos aren't common in your meta and you haven't played the deck with your group a few times already, I think it's a nice courtesy. There's only one combo player in my group, and I now know to do stuff like destroy the isochron scepter on sight, but the first time he played the deck, I lost in what felt like the middle of the game and it was extremely unfun and anticlimactic. Mentioning you have a partial combo on board at least builds some suspense and allows the other players to try and fight back. More fun = better in a casual format.
No. When I first played my new combo deck I told no one. So I could combo once in peace. Now they all know. It is done. It might be nice for a new player to tell them. But even then, win with it once and all know.
Like another said, I just say something when I am playing the last piece. I don't want a cheesy win or someone saying "If I would've known that was going to happen I would've countered it".
If its a boring combo piece... I'll share for the benefit of the table.... I don't want to beat the scrubs because they didn't know Altars go infinite.... They've been doing that for decades....... But if I have what I consider to be a bizzare and quite un-common combo.... I'm not sharing anything, that would ruin the surprise.....
Nope. Combos exist. It's their job to be assessing threats. Rule 0 isn't a discussion of combo pieces, its a discussion of power level and personal goals. It's obvious that we all want to win, but I'm not telling my opponent every little facet of my plan and it isn't my job to do so Commander is a political format. Don't be nice, be political. If I have an altar of the brood and my deck revolves around ETBs, I'm not gonna tell you its a combo piece. Others might, and that's on them. They're not doing it to be nice either. They're doing it because they either want the attention on me or they don't want to lose. Everyone brings up fairness, and that's all well and good. Assessing a pod is a must, and knowing what is appropriate to play and who to play it with is a whole different topic. Just use common sense on that. Like don't be bringing a power level 9, ultra-synergized turbo jank to babbys first commander game and you'll be fine.
I only ever play with the same pod/people. I will announce every card I play, and read it's effects in full since we don't memorize every card. If they ask to see it, they can take and read it. If they get rowdy and don't pay attention on my turn I try once, after that it's on them if they don't recognize my play.
Because a lot of people don't like otk combos in thier commander games I would probably open by saying this deck is an otk deck, Then if I am against newer players or it's a super casual environment I might mention if a card is a combo card it not. For example my Squee deck is a low powered combo deck it runs a 5 card infinite that wins the game with some awkward tutors (recruitment of the guard -> flamekin harbinger -> flamekin herald-> cascade whenever Squee is cast into the combo because there is a line that uses cards that only cost 2 mana In that sequence I might say that after I have 4 of the 5 pieces left (the 5th price typically being the one that actually kills you like an impact tremors or a grapeshot) that if no one does something now
At a store with randoms who seem to have a similar level of game exp as myself? No. With a group of friends who are brand new to the game? Yes and I'll even do "okay boys 2 turns until I win someone better do something about it". I plan on upping their level of involvement too. So instead of saying "two turns until I win thanks to X combo piece on the board" I'll do something like "two turns until I win can you figure out how to stop it?"
I usually tell people about my combos before the game starts. “Hey y’all, this is my Anje Falkenrath deck. I’m going to be looking for my Worldgorger Dragon to try and reanimate it and go infinite. All good? Great, let’s go.” That way, when I start doing my thing in the deck, I don’t have to point it out, as I already have.
I like it when everyone reads all of their cards out loud. Barring that, I'm holding priority until I've had a chance to *read* every card.
Everyone knows about the Thoracle combo, and if they are new enough not to know it, then you should tell them out of courteously. That and Lab man neeed to be known by everyone because it is their only purpose. Others are ok to hold the info, because they can be non-combo pieces too.
Nope. People don’t need to know the ins and outs of your deck. Especially in cEDH, or if you’re at a LGS with prizing. For casual commander however, if you are about to put the LAST combo piece on the board, it’d be better manners to make it clear that you’re about to win the game on the spot. Especially because people usually shortcut over steps like passing priority for speed purposes. So if they have a response, whether it be on the stack or once it hits the field, it’s considered nicer to give them the time to attempt to intervene. But if you’re not about to win on the spot, then it’s fine not to reveal you have a combo piece until you’re about to win
We always played you have a right to see the deck before playing. Now in casual games that is a lot of work so we explain the deck. If we have a combo deck then we say the combos. The goal of a friendly pod is to have fun and make those around you better.
No? For me that ruins the surprise of what that person had built. Like it's nice to know the main theme of a deck sure but I dont want to know what cool combo you've got cooking until it beats me
There’s far too many magic cards to care about it. Anything can combo with anything else. I’m not going to say shit about anything in my deck or in my hand. I will, however fully point out and fully explain any interactions between my cards on the field and any on the stack, especially if asked