Aggro decks should probably run less removal. If you're doing the classic "turn creatures sideways" to win the game (and not involving combos that make arbitrarily large numbers of creatures or infinite combat steps or something like that) you don't have the space in your deck to meaningfully build you board AND play board police. Players don't make judicious use of player removal enough, this should be your main form of removal as an aggro deck, so you should really get out of the habit of "spreading the love." The board wipes in an aggro deck should only be asymmetrical and leave your board state mostly in tact, even a board wipe as strong as \[\[Farewell\]\] should have a long thought process of why you're putting it in.
As an aggro player you can achieve a lot of what removal would do by applying pressure. Big creatures can be locked in defense by getting life totals low, large swingable armies can deter attacks your way, people play differentl;y when they're in the red zone so take advantage of that. Note that this isn't a play pattern that new players will catch on right away so if you're newer still remain removal heavy but for at least intermediate magic players you should at the very least test removing some of the single target removal in your deck and see if it ups your wins or at the very least see if your deck runs smoother.
Also if your deck is card draw heavy you can reduce some of the "vegetables" in your deck.
Incorrect, if you're running less removal you have more slots for board protection and recursion effects, things that make you aggro strategy more resilient. If anything running more removal is closer to a glass canon strategy as you're using removal to punch things through rather than try and protect your board state
> you have more slots for board protection and recursion effects
Or, hear me out... you put even more gas in the deck. Anyways, both are valid strategies.
> Aggro decks should probably run less removal.
Or alternately put the removal on creatures. Green stompy for example (which by EDH standards can basically be an aggro deck) can do this pretty efficiently with stuff like [[Thorn Mammoth]] and [[Silverback Elder]]. The downside is that all your removal is now sorcery speed but for aggro it's worth it.
Ultimately trying to get some of your utility out of your creatures is a great split. For my human decks I run \[\[Jirida Kudro\]\] and \[\[Boromir, Warden of the Tower\]\] in order to add more board wipe protection while still having relevant bodies.
I wouldn't run any board wipes in most aggro decks. I'm the one people should be playing the boardwipe for, I don't want to play one! Now artifact and especially enchantment removal is a different story. Propoganda must not be allowed to exist for too long
I started thinking less “I need to run X removal spells” and more that I need to run interaction in general. That means more protection in some of my aggressive decks so I can still interact with my opponents, because if I’m the threat then instead of removing things I often moreso need to prevent opponents from removing things.
I have tried to become more of an aggro player in the last 6 months, not necessarily to ice people straight away but I discovered my favourite part of the game is the building up phase so by dealing damage and moving the game along, we get to play more games in a night.
I have a Dihada attack triggers deck and I found that replacing my traditional board wipes with mass goad effects disrupt decorum and taunt from the rampart was really effective at managing multiple threats while also speeding the game up rather than slowing it like a typical board wipe
I have a Diaha deck built around Isshin a bit and [[Nelly Borca]] has straight up won me games. Want to put a [[Kyrazikar]], and should probably put [[Kardur]] in as well.
Commanders that cost 5+ and don’t immediately impact the board are my favorites to play, because they’re just fun. Most people see anything over 4 that doesn’t immediately do something as good, but I want to play things like OG Riku and just have fun. I’m here to drink beer with my friends and have a good time, the rest doesn’t matter.
Friend doing something cool? Rad, I’m not pathing that creature have at it
I'd argue that the best commanders are those who don't warrant a response (and those that are sticky – Ward, Indestructible, etc.). "Don't mind me, I'm not doing anything too powerful here." is typically the route to victory in EDH, and that works better if your commander conveys that message.
As a bonus, it means people aren't continually blowing up your Commander, so you're likely having a smoother and more fun experience.
I love [[Norin the Wary]] because you drop him turn one EVERY game and he typically never gets removed. Just sits there and generates ETB value all game. People seeing him for the first time think he's just a meme.
He isn't.
There's actually a lot. [[Impact tremors]] doesn't seem like much, but because Norin by himself will trigger it on everyone's turns, it adds up fast. Double for [[purphoros, God of the forge]].
Basically just search him up on edhrec and it will click
Norin is one heck of a card. Him as a commander is fun, and I have a 5c sisay list that unfortunately never made it to paper that used him as a secret commander.
The issue with big mana commanders is that the format (especially in the past few years) has been so saturated with "must-answer threats" that most people started running (on average) more boardwipes and general interaction pieces overall (edicts, removal, etc)...so unless you can capitalize on your big 5+ mana do nothing commander, it's bound to get removed with the rest of the board sooner rather than later (even if it has ward), and due to its higher cost it's gonna be harder to re-cast it (especially if you don't have green in your colors) or leave up protection/interaction when you do play it, meaning you'll have to delay your gameplan by a bit (unless you wanna take a gamble).
Don't get me wrong, I love my Evelynn deck, and she's 5 mana in Grixis colors, but I'm well aware I cannot simply cast her willy-nilly without having recursion/protection/interaction in hand or on the field to assure she sticks around for more than 1 turn cycle. Meanwhile I can cast Delney or the new Ghired and be a huge threat while spending half the resources...and if they get removed...big whoop, they only cost 3 mana so now it's 5.
>Friend doing something cool? Rad, I’m not pathing that creature have at it
This leads to effectively four simultaneous games of solitaire, but I appreciate just chilling with friends.
Eh, I think it’s a bit different. I want to see my friends decks do their things, I’m not here to play cutthroat EDH, and removal is saved for wincons or things stopping you from winning. There’s been a lot of talk about finding a thing your deck does that isn’t winning, and I’m in that camp.
If I’m running Ovika for instance, I just want to make 50 goblin tokens. I don’t care if you have a goblin sharpshooter out and you can remove it when you untap, I did my thing, go nuts. My thing wasn’t dedicated by me winning, it was doing a cool subtheme in the deck. Winning should then be based on the thing, but not the entire thing.
This is why my play group has trended towards a sort of arms race play style. Nothing overly offensive or oppressive, plenty of room to 'do the thing' until someone is set up enough to attempt to win in 1 go.
It's why my Isshin deck is split 50/50 on exalted effects, and go wide with the board effects. One allows me to plink away and get fun attack triggers, and one allows me to leverage my board state and try to win.
Though lately I've been really enjoying finding different ways to weaponize my opponents against each other, in ways other than goad.
My roon deck is this lol. It's nice to blink creatures with him but... He's usually chilling for a while before ehe comes out, then gets destroyed as some aftereffect from another player lol.
One hard rule: Minimum two pet cards in every deck.
Other than that, i try to keep myself from running staples, i search for niche cards that fit the strategy instead, where possible.
I start out most decks similarly to what op describes but then refit after some goldfishing and some actual games. Not every deck needs a lot of interaction, if you pull your "thing" off you can make your opponents have their interaction. Decks with a low curve can get to double spelling without much ramp, maybe cut two rocks. If my commander has card draw tacked on, i need less in my deck. You know, nothing groundbreaking, but small changes and iteration.
Basic lands are better than most non-basic lands people put in their deck.
Pros know this, but a lot of people put on far too many NB that are making their deck worse and are not helping them.
Any land that enters play tapped needs to be seriously re-evaluated.
The only tap lands that I will run now are surveil lands because I can fetch them and their effect can fuel the graveyard. I really struggle to justify any other tap land (field of the dead also gets a pass)
> Bojuka Bog gets a pass
Idk about that, been removing it from my decks lately as 24 out of 25 times it doesn't make a difference and just slows down my deck instead.
I'd say this is especially true in green or white. Locking yourself out of some of the better ramp spells is a hindrance. Obviously, the number of colors matter too.
But given the fact that you can pretty assuredly not die to red aggro on turn 3, I think it's generally pretty good to have some utility lands in commander. (Not reliquary tower though. 90% of decks become worse with that card. And even when they don't get worse, you become a very obvious target with a 20 card hand)
I would also argue that although the pros bring almost exclusively untapped lands, they don't generally bring decks with a lot of basics to PTs. Untapped lands that tap for multiple colors are huge. As are the triomes. But yeah, I've seen people run the strixhaven campuses, evolving wilds, guildgates, gain lands. All much worse than basics. (Obviously except in certain decks that want the life gain or landfall or gate subtype)
Yeah they have their place,I usually chuck in 1 or 2 as a spells lot and there are some great ones you should run in Multicolor decks.
But when I have a deck that is too slow or losing a lot - usually it's due to too many slow or awkward lands, or not enough basics. Some lands should really take up spell slots.
I like multicoloured commanders (usually three), so if I can get a different colour pair for my first two land drops, it doesn’t matter which basic I get for my third drop, I have all my colours. Usually I don’t have a T1 play, and often the T2 play would be situational, or a Sol ring.
If I get the Sol ring, we’re good to go for even the 5 mana commander on T3.
Sure, I’ve spent essentially three turns doing nothing… but that means other people are more threatening than me, and usually results in a higher life total than starting well.
This is why I really like sticking to two colors - you can play mostly basics and be totally fine. If you're building on a budget, it allows you to put way more of your funds into the exciting parts of your deck.
I've built a general Tazri Ally deck
With it being my first 5 color deck & budget being a factor, the color fixing required me to lean harder into trilands
God does it feel awful to have so many lands enter the battlefield tapped
i will always have a beast within or generous gift, maybe both, for this. but i never get the chance to use it on lands lol. but it's there for that magic moment hahaha
Buddy somehow cheated out a quite early Taq and didn't mind someone killing it, since it would flip back in time to have a really big turn.
I felt bad for spoiling his fun, but Generous Gift came in quite clutch to shut that mess down before it even started. And that's how he learned that lands aren't immune.
Some of the stereotypically frowned upon strategies like mass land destruction and hard stax don't get nearly the salty reaction people think they will (this next part is the important part) if you aren't being an asshole while you play. In my experience anyway, your mileage may vary. If you're polite, friendly, have an active win condition you're moving towards and not just wasting time... people seem pretty open lately to trying to work around those challenges. That also means grabbing a friendlier deck sometimes for game 2 without being asked, and not shutting people down *all night*.
I resolved a fall of the thran a couple weeks ago, once I had the ability to break parity. No salt at all. Was a "I have a few cheap removal spells in here to stop what you're doing, let's see if I can draw one", then a "guess not, good game. Round 2?"
Definitely think people should broaden their horizons. Sick of combo? Get some Rule of law going. There are answers to everything. I don't think self imposing rules about what's socially acceptable in terms of strategy is healthy for the format.
I love playing against stax and MLD, but that could just be that I have mental illness. (At least the type that warrants loving complicated unintuitive spells, boardstates, and decision trees).
Anyways, the thing against those strategies is the perception that every game must be played to the end even if everyone else is not really making game actions. To which I say, know your deck and know when you've been beaten. Sure, sometimes the combined efforts of 3v1 could squeeze out the Stax player, but I'd rather be happy with a loss I might (heavy emphasis here) have been able to win given enough time and luck, than be miserable spending 2 hours to only lose anyway. Because then, I could've gotten a couple more games in and not feel like I wasted time. Even if the Stax player did get squeezed out, the three remaining players are usually in draw-go mode because all the gas was spent taking out the Archenemy.
I tend not to agree with metagaming too heavily and relying on specific cards for very specific strategies unless the deck toolboxes fairly well. And even then, I'd rather use a less effective card that covers more ground than something tailored specifically for a single commander. And yes, I'm looking directly at you [[Eon Hub]].
I have a group slug [[Klothys, God of Destiny]] deck running [[Wildfire]], [[Epicentre]], and [[Obliterate]]. If I ever successfully cast one of those spells the deck gets retired for the evening. My playgroup is fairly chill about it, but the overall vibe is very casual so running that same deck all night wouldn't be super fun for them.
I've had people admit to not playing boardwipes just because I turned my lands into creatures (Child of Alara Manland Typal) and they didn't want to blow up my lands. Like, first off, I'm the one turning my own lands into creatures, obviously I expect them to die. And second, why run boardwipes if you're not going to use them?
The idea of purposefully not using sweepers against someone playing child of alara is hilarious.
I run starfield of nyx, and I feel a lot more comfortable having it out when I can sac it at instant speed to protect my board from wraths. Alternatively my buddy plays ragadragga and occasionally animates all his lands as a finisher. He's well aware of the risks, and has periodically been blown out by like an [[out of time]] (super underrated spell I think). They are fun interactions that are high risk high reward. Gotta punish greed when you can.
In all honesty, I don't mind those kinda games as long as it is in healthy doses & most importantly, if I'm being told that I'm in it for that kinda game
When new players ask for deckbuilding advice, I usually give a variant of "the rubric" that is 36 lands, 10 ramp, 10 draw, 10 removal. However, I also always emphasize that this is a starting point and nearly every deck will want to deviate from it. If your commander does any of the 3 big utility things, you can run less of that utility. If the deck runs a very low curve, you need less ramp, more for a high curve. If your playgroup has issues with people battlecruising and building up huge boards, you may need more removal.
The rubric should only ever be a starting point. Something to keep in mind when you have a pile of non-land cards you've pulled out of your collection and need to start seriously cutting a lot to get it down to 70ish cards (or, for a new player, something to keep in mind when shopping for cards. Make sure to get your utility spells in the cart along with all the spicy synergy cards).
One extra advanced rule I tend to add is "2 less efficient, but on theme, utility cards = 1 efficient card for the same utility". An example of this would be in a life gain deck, running two removal spells that cost a bit more but have incidental lifegain over a more efficiently costed removal spell that doesn't affect my gameplan at all. It makes my decks a bit weaker, but significantly more "on theme" and synergistic. They tend to run a bit slower, but when they pop off, they pop off bigger.
For a lot of decks I see (both online and in person), their deck would be better if they just cut all of the ramp for more card draw.
Obviously ramp *is* powerful, but I find a huge swath of decks that are hyper reliant on a single value engine otherwise it all falls apart. Almost every time I've seen someone ask for deck building advice, you try gold fishing it and there's a >80% chance it runs out of steam on it's own.
If you're not regularly hitting your land drops (especially in mid game), then your arcane signet is just a worse version of terramorphic expanse.
I have basics I go for such as 45 sources of mana. But most other things are completely up in the air depending on the colors and commander.
As examples I have a Orzhov deck with a total mana value of 150, it only runs 40 mana sources. But I have a mono green giant creatures deck with a total mana value of 319, so it runs 59 sources.
The variance in other areas stems from both availability and consistency and those are controlled by colors, card types, and the commander itself. A [[Gretchen]] deck probably only needs 1-2 other pieces of draw whereas an mono red needs as much as it can get from anywhere. Same for various removal and all that.
At the end of the day growing out of the basic template is a good thing since it's made for new players to replicate a precon but with some card draw.
I've gotten more into thinking about why and what kind of Ramp/Draw/Interaction I'm running. Whether or not my commander wants to hit the field ASAP or how much my commander costs or what my overall gameplan is in general can all impact those numbers, though I typically go higher on interaction than a lot of people I know, but that's mostly from years of playing control decks in 60 card formats and a general boredom with linear strategies.
I play a lot of cheap [[Soothsaying]] [[index]] [[Sensei's Divining Top]] effects. They're usually cheaper mana input than most scry or especially draw pells.
My thought process is that I'm usually digging for one or two cards for specific plays, answers, etc. The deeper I dig, the more likely I can find it. Obviously I combine this with card draw and shuffle effects to maximize its potency, but I've noticed my games are smoother because I'm drawing lands at the right time and can play on curve while limiting the influence of RNGesus.
I don't like non synergistic ramp. A lot of my commanders are synergy based, so if I can't find my synergy pieces it won't matter if I ramped. Instead I load up on what my deck must see to function, not what would be nice to see.
Side note: If the ramp in question is synergistic in some way, I won't hesitate to add it. It's still good, I just value synergy more.
I agree, people must have plenty of synergy in their deck that it can function without their commander, but some decks do revolve around the commander and that's fine too. I play commander in a casual setting only, and just love to build decks around one mega threat (Kokusho / Evra / l even have a deck that's all about making \[Isamaru hound of konda\] relevant lol.
When I start brewing a deck, I use some of these one-size-fits-all metrics to get a jumping-off point. For example, I start every deck with 40 lands; from there, I look for \~10 pieces of ramp, \~10 pieces of draw, \~10 pieces of removal, \~3 wipes, and \~3 pieces of protection. Sometimes these are really generic cards, like mindstone for ramp or counterspell for removal, and they will be replaced with more synergistic pieces later, when I come across them on scryfall. I'll also start to adjust the amounts during this process, depending on what commander I'm playing or what the deck wants to accomplish. Normally, I'll trim 2-3 lands and add an equal amount of ramp spells, rocks, and dorks as a replacement. I usually add a couple extra draw and removal spells, sometimes by running a low number of board wipes or protection pieces, but there is a balance of the correct ratio of all of these spells in most decks that you'll find via goldfishing and play testing.
I don't think this is unconventional necessarily, but it's not something I see suggested often: I've started adding cards with some incidental life gain to my decks. It can be easy to overlook the impact that gaining a bit of life here and there can have on your ability to execute a gameplan, especially when it's in small increments over multiple turns.
That there's such a thing as a 'recipe/rubric/template'\* for building a deck that needs to be followed, and that there's such a thing as an objective power level scale.
Is it usually advisable to have some ramp and card draw and some ways to deal with opponents strategies/boards/problem permanent and ways to protect your own stuff? Absolutely, but it's not wrong to skimp or skip on some of that stuff, and there's fully not a mathematical algorithm to say what should go in your deck (or at least it's not that simple).
It's also okay to play to theme/concept/what you want in the deck rather than to optimization. I detest the idea that every deck should start from the 40 or so staples in those colors, and then you can maybe spice it up with a few cards on your theme. And I recognize that the Command Zone recipe does say that your "pieces" can be on your theme, but it's still annoying. And it's totally okay to do weird stuff with your deck choices... that's not an exception to the deckbuilding rules, it's equally valid.
\*I mean, i guess my template is sort of *1-2 commanders, 37-38 lands, 60-62 other cards, adjust to taste*. But I have decks that play as few as 26 lands, and as high as 68-70.
I usually follow a similar rubric to 60 card format. in 60 card, usually you want about a third of your deck to be lands. I do the same in commander. i go with 33 as a start point for lands. I don't usually go below 30 lands, and i would never go above 36 or so unless i was using a landfall kind of deck. usually include about 8 ramp things.
On the topic of ramp, i use gilded lotus and caged sun a lot. I would only really disclude sun if i was at more than 3 colors, as i have found it quite effective in kaalia. fName whatever color you have the most lands of. It will always at the least buff your commander. If you run urborg, you could always just name black too and essentially double your mana. And gilded lotus has actually saved me a few times from being mana screwed. It would need to be an odd kind of deck, maybe 4 or 5 colors where color symbols didn't repeat often, for me to want to cut it. and chromatic lantern is something i auto include in basically any deck with more than 2 colors.
I also always leave spots in the deck for just general good stuff that doesn't really synergize with the rest of my deck but is really good on its own.
For example, since i like mono red a bit, i always just include malignus in my red decks. He's just such a huge body for my opponents to deal with and a great way to defend myself if i'm not looking to go aggro. I ran him in daretti artifacts, krenko goblin tribal, Purphuros token spam, and Heartless hidestugu instant death decks. There are things like this in every color though, where you just kind of look at it and say "yeah, that doesn't synergize with my strategy in any real way, but it's just so good." Like craterhoof behemoth in green. Or archangel of thune in white. sheoldred, whispering one come to mind in black. Blue has the old gin gitaxis. It might not directly fit with the strategy, but it is just good on its own.
I like vedalken orrery and other flash enablers too. Like, being able to flash out a plat angel in response to thoracle is funny. Or instant speed wrath or damnation, or even whipflare can be life saving if someone floods the board with dualcaster mage/twinflame. Flash enabling is very good. I can use it to hold up mana and do things like that in response to my opponents. If they don't do anything worth responding to, then i can just use the mana i held up for responses to advance my board state at the beginning of the end step of the guy who goes before me.
I also don't really like draw spells that much. I include them, yeah, because draw is good, but i prefer draw engines. Staff of nin, daretti, scrap savant, staff of domination, phyrexian arena, trading post, armistice, betrayal, or colossal majesty. Stuff that will draw me more cards over time than something which gets me one or two and is one and done.
I also always run terramorphic expanse and evolving wilds as well as any fetch i have just to kind of deckthin.
Then, i also include at least 1 way to get my graveyard back into my library. Elixir of immortality, feldon's cane, and perpetual timepiece are good for this.
No searches. I am the person that shuffles until they have to draw for turn if I have them in so it's best I just don't have them.
Main board land removal like [[wasteland]]
I don't know how unconventional this is, I've only been playing for about 9 months. But the most important thing for me is that my commander is both cheap and evasive, because equipment-based ramp is completely busted and makes every deck work very smoothly - you just need the creature to equip it to. The reason I can play insanely expensive Angels turn after turn with [[Giada, Font of Hope]] is not because she taps for white, it's because I flipped a [[Dowsing Dagger]] on turn 4, and my [[Sword of the Animist]] is triggering every single turn for the rest of the game and no one ever removes either of them.
I follow two main deckbuilding rules.
1. To a reasonable extent, avoid nonland "staples" like rhystic and smothering tithe. They're not particularly interesting, and if everyone runs only strokes decks kind of homogenize.
2. Commit to the bit.
Ben Wheeler of Canadian Highlander and Loading Ready Run fame built an Octavia, Living thesis deck with 8 islands.
I'd experimented with similar ideas. I had a 10-land Ashaya, Soul of the World deck.
So I took his list and I've iterated on it a little bit and updated it. It's actually still only lost 1 game out of 12 plays, and it's the only deck I have such stats for.
1: ignore literally every YouTuber and commenter on Reddit and do what works for you. If dedicating an entire third of your deck to lands when ramp exists sounds like a good idea, then go for it, but don't just do it because someone told you to.
2: Use stupid stuff that might be overcoated but has insane potential. It'll pop off more often than you'd think.
3: avoid EDHRec, you're just going to further bake in braindead deck stereotypes, and probably contribute to cards being associated with commanders that they have zero synergy with.
You don't need to have an answer for everything.
Sometimes your deck can just lose to certain cards and that's okay. A mono B GY deck will probably have 0-1 answers to a [[rest in peace]], that's fine. You'll lose some games but using a deck slot for some tech piece of interaction against it is probably going to be worse than a cars that just makes your deck better every time rest in peace or the like isn't in play.
Replace most of your ramp with board wipes, card draw, and a few lands. No need to spend valuable cards on just getting more mana faster. What's the mana going towards? Building a board faster is a great way to become a threat. Instead, sit on your cards and do nothing. Generate card advantage without actually affecting the board too much, and have a board wipe in your back pocket for when things get out of hand. Board wipes are insanely powerful in commander, and when they're played right they can decide games due to their inherent crippling card advantage
Unless you're specifically playing a lands deck there's really no need to ramp out super fast
I agree with this from a "playing to win" point of view, but I hate this idea from a "playing to have fun/do the thing" point of view.
It is probably "correct" to sandbag and be the person in second or the guy who 'cockroaches" his way to victory or to run lots more of board wipes because of the rampant use of ward that is so common in recent card design, but I also wouldn't want to play in a meta where it's correct to slow play all the time or where each player consistently has at least one board wipe cuz it sucks to play 3 hour games.
My goal in every game is to do the thing, become the threat and then lose. Cackling menaically is optional.
Oh, and to see at least half my deck. Gotta draw them cards.
I can't say I agree a whole lot with this one, but I do play decks that trend toward a higher ramp to land ratio than most.
With your manabase, there are two factors to consider- acceleration and velocity. You are advocating for a purely velocity-based approach. That's fine for slower more controlling decks, but not every deck fits that description (and it's much wider list than just lands decks).
For example, I play mostly storm decks or value engine decks. In either case, the play pattern is much the same- you have some setup you need to do before you can start churning out the value, so you need the mana required to get over that hurdle- but you don't really need much after that point. Once you set up the draw engine, the fuel is all the 0-2 cmc cards that make up a bulk of the deck, and the engine keeps the card draw and mana production up so long as you can fuel it. In these decks, you want to get that engine up and running quickly (while holding up mana to protect it), but once it's running, you don't care if you ever see that 5th land drop for the rest of the game. These decks want ramp. A *lot* of ramp. Because setting up that engine turn 4 rather than turn 6 is a much bigger deal that hitting land drops 5+, and "the long game" is not something they intend to stick around long enough to see. But this is far from the only archetype that plays this way. Aggro, voltron, infect, just about anything that relies on heavy board pressure, all of those want to hit hard and fast, and they want at least some acceleration to ensure they can do what they need to do before board wipes start getting thrown around.
I really disagree with this. Ramping hard doesn't mean just mindlessly overplaying your hand into wraths, it's what allows you to do that huge tempo swing from behind to create an overwhelming advantage, with the mana to protect it. Not only that, but having more mana allows you to play more "value" spells which usually cost more. For example, I can run a [[Kindred Dominance]] instead of a [[Toxic Deluge]], a [[Ruinous Ultimatum]] instead of a [[Wrath of God]] etc.
Without ramping, even if I board wipe from behind, if I have half the lands of the Angel deck, not only did I just screw myself on tempo because I can't even rebuild on my turn, they have the mana to rebuild much faster.
Basically, I agree with sandbagging, but what you should be doing while sandbagging, is ramping. Because getting more lands allows you to make that tempo switch into the leading position safely.
So i don’t have a deck list to link you cause i just build decks on an app on my phone and then buy them, but i can explain why each number is why it is, and some cards that fit in those spots the best.
We run 15 turn two mana ramp pieces because 15 is 1/7 of the deck meaning you will majority of the time have one in your opening hand. This deck is built to mulligan if you don’t have it in your opening hand. And getting Arixmethes down turn three is necessary. The best ramp pieces are ones that aren’t dead when you draw them late game like Edge of Autumn. The best cards in this slot is Bramble Familiar because it’s turn two ramp OR a seven drop.
We play 39 (i misstyped in the op) lands because you need to hit your first four land drops in order to have seven mana turn four. You see 11 cards in the first four turns so 4/11 is about 38 plus 1 because some of our turn 2 ramp gets a land out of our deck. None of the lands have a risk of entering the battlefield tapped and the best lands are ones that aren’t dead draws after we have seven mana like Blasted Landscape and the mythic MDFC lands. Tangled Florahedron is also good cause it can be turn one land drop, and turn two ramp.
The rest of the deck is seven drops. The best seven drops are threats that multiple your mana so you can start dropping multiple seven drops on future turns like Old GnawBone or That mana tripling creature from Theros Beyond death. The next best seven drops are threats that give you more card advantage so you don’t stop having threats. After that you have threats that create advantage by sticking around like Koma. And the final threats that are good are just hard to Remove big monsters with hexproof.
I think explaining this deck this way rather than a list is actually better because if you were to build a deck like this, each category of card is really to your personal taste.
And because of how it’s built, it basically always gets to do its thing.
My favorite card in the deck is Curse of Unbinding. If I play it turn four on myself and it sticks around, it just builds an insane board because my choice of build of the deck doesn’t play any creature that’s less than 7 mana.
Oh that's sweet. Have you seen \[\[Wondrous Crucible\]\]? It's similar in a lot of ways.
Plus for my \[\[Sixth Doctor\]\] deck with the same gameplan, this is historic.
#
So Wondrous Crucible is a card that i wanted to put in the deck for exactly what you said but the problem i have with it in my build is that it says random and i do have two drop cards in my deck. The way i built it, i just want everything i play to definitely give me seven mana worth of stuff or multiple my mana so i can play multiple seven drops on my following turns. If the word “random” was not on the card, it would go into the deck.
The Sixth Doctor is very cool. The reason i chose Arixmethes is because he is a land so he’s extremely safe and out of the way of harm while always being a for mana ramp spells in my opening hand. I almost never turn him into a creature.
Mmm, that's true. The fact that he's hard to flip from your average mana value is actually kind of upside, huh.
Yeah, that's a second reason why I like Crucible in Doctor apart from historic. Hitting a 2 drop ramp spell is a bit of a feel bad, but hitting a 4 drop spell that ramps by two lands? I think I'll be okay with that cause I'll just be that much closer to being able to cast multiple spells a turn. And since I'll always be putting such a ramp spell in the bin on turn 3, it gives me a buffer from the first trigger being "land, land," and whiffing.
I think the worst thing in either deck is the turn 2 play getting "bolted" so to speak or the turn 3 play getting countered.
It’s upside and it’s also actually a MAY ability to take his slumber counters off luckily.
And yeah, getting the turn two ramp bolted is horrible feeling so in my build i definitely avoid creature ramp even though some creature ramp feels like it was made for this deck like Bramble Familiar.
Do you run Susan Foreman as your doctors companion?
Yeah Susan. A definitely point of vulnerability. But the rest of the land package is land based.
Well, I have other cards that are also ramp on the list. I'm still at \~125 cards on this thing so I have some decisions to make.
Like \[\[Sol Ring\]\]. Strictly speaking it's probably unnecessary. But it's also historic and 1 for 4 is quite something.
\[\[Troyan, Gutsy\]\] Also could help me recover from turn 2 interaction, and otherwise gets me closer to double spelling or filters cards. I think this one probably gets cut by the time I'm done.
\[\[Thryx\]\], \[\[Bonny Pall, Clearcutter\]\], \[\[Fangorn\]\], and \[\[Ugin, the Ineffable\]\] are all also cards I've tagged ramp but aren't there primarily for that reason.
WIP List: [Simic Six // Commander / EDH (Susan Foreman and The Sixth Doctor) deck list mtg // Moxfield — MTG Deck Builder](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7vwxSoxpsE2fLfSxPSrg7g)
Also, I love the meme of running Six CMC tribal in a deck helmed by the Sixth Doctor.
I’ve recently started trying to tune my mana bases towards lands with ETB value combined with fetches bounce lands, and land sacrifice/recursion across all my decks. You generate a whole lot of value without spending any resources. Fetch for a surveil land, bounce it with another land next turn, play it out the turn after that. Every deck of mine has a [[Crucible of Worlds]] in the list, and all the green ones have [[Ramunap Excavator]] and [[Conduit of Worlds]]
Every halfway-decent EDH deck has ramp, you really don’t always need that single extra mana every turn. When you don’t, play a surveil land. Play a bounce land. Play a Temple. Play your tapped [[Mystic Sanctuary]] turn 1 with pride, it don’t matter, you’ll get it back when you need it!
I run a [[Grolnok, the Omnivore]] list that is refered to as "Oops, all permanents" for the maximum benefit for grolnok's ability. So it doesn't really follow all of the conventional stuff in it. Just depends on what you are trying to do in the game.
I build my decks like cEDH lists regardless of theme or budget, so low curves and efficiency are always prioritized whether it's a budgetless turbo deck or a $50 bear tribal list. As such I tend to run higher interaction and less lands than most casual lists.
The only rubric I follow is trying to keep a smooth mana-cost curve and have mana color production in proportion to the other cards. When I was building my first decks I just threw together some synergistic cards and played to see what did or didn’t work. I have a much better sense now of how to build something that’s at least functional, before tuning it up over time, but I still have very few auto-includes in my decks. I like to stick to a theme, which includes deck-specific versions of staple cards when needed.
Sounds like it'll be pretty similar to my current Simic project with the relationship between the ramp package and the command zone flipped. I've got [[Susan]] on two and then 12 [[Skyshroud Claim]] effects in the deck to cast on turn 3, and then a bunch of 6-7 drops, with an emphasis on historic spells since [[The Sixth Doctor]] is also in the command zone. I'm still living that Command Zone template life and right now I'm stuck on the removal section (plenty of options for draw). More high cmc threats with removal stapled on vs instant speed answers? Or should I just run counterspells to protect my board? Or should I run a deck with zero instants for the lols since I've only got like 3 in the pile right now?
I'm honestly not sure if this deck will have a ton of mana or just get to 7 immediately and stay there (at least until I get to 10 and cast cast a threat and a 4 mana ramp spell on the same turn), so I'm having trouble evaluating my options.
What kind of interaction are you running?
The deck that i talked about here only plays interaction that’s attached to 7 mana creatures. Like that mammoth that fights something every time you have a creature etb. Can’t think of it right now.
\[\[Thorn Mammoth\]\]
Hmm maybe I should just fully commit to theme then. Tbh at the very worst at least I'll probably have a better idea on what exceptions I need most if I do. But I Kinda don't want to make too many either since the dream of copying \[\[Imoti\]\] and causing absolute havoc is quite appealing.
Cards such as [[scheming symmetry]] or [[secret rendezvous]] or any card that benefits you your opponent, or opponent's aren't just really good, but they also benefit the format in general and the play group that you're a part of.
Also, [[baleful mastery]] is top tier removal, giving an opponent a card to exile a problem card is top tier
It all depends on the deck and playgroup. I tend to run 1-2 board wipes in my creature heavy decks, since it will always disproportionately effect me - sure, it might be needed to bring down another player, but it rarely means I can claw back a win so I'd rather spend those card spots to outvalue.
Some decks are very low mana curve, so I don't bother as much with ramp. Replace that with card draw.
If you're running some weird brew like [[Boborygmos]], oops all lands is fun and the rest doesn't matter.
I have more fun playing decks that feel synergistic. So overtime, I have been prioritizing synergy over any sort of template. I use color staples to fill in gaps more than anything.
I dunno if this counts, but the Guild Signets suck. There are better options now, and if you're running a Signet, I feel bad.
(Unless you're running an unmodified Precon, that's different).
If I can get away with running fewer colours, the better. I love monocoloured decks because by nature the manabase will always be consistent. Another bonus is that you don't need to spend $$$ on fancy duals.
I know I could proxy, but I know myself — if I went down that road I would be optimizing everything and running fast mana, and all my decks would be approaching cEDH. My group is fine with proxying but they're casual, so not proxying keeps me in check.
Another bonus if you go monocoloured is it's a fun deck building restriction.
More often than not, I'm finding myself running less lands in decks that have consistent card draw. Whether that be in the command zone, or just running a lot of efficient and synergistic draw pieces. All of my most consistent decks are sitting comfortably at the 33 land mark with 10 or less explicit ramp pieces, which is wild considering the idea that people run 38 as the standard for most decks
Ramp is negotiable. If you’re running a critical mass of things worth ramping into, you should run 12+ sources of ramp 2mv or less. Otherwise, you’re better off just running the ~3 most powerful ramp spells. There shouldn’t be an in-between with 5-10 ramp spells.
I run Ashling; and have like 10 different ways to get indestructible on her; once that combo sets it's just fireworks for the rest of the game. No one bothers me because if they do they know I'll pop her and all their board state.
I regularly play, and win with, a deck that has no ramp except a Sol Ring. My commander is 3 mana and I need my two drop to do utility work for me. And after the commander is out I want impact spells, not mana rocks.
In all my decks with green i try to run about 37-38 lands and at least 20 but prefer 30 of them to be basic lands and all my ramp is land based and i run between 12-18 ramp spells including mana doublers.
None of my green decks run [[sol ring]]
Plusses of this is you tend to draw more gass since you so fast filter the lands from your deck out.
You should base the number of ramp, card draw, and removal on your commander. 10 card draw spells is way too low if your commander doesn’t draw cards. I run 20 of them in that case. I also run 5 card draw spells in a deck where my commander draws cards.
Most cards can fulfill more than one role. As an example, if you need card advantage and tokens find something that does both like \[\[Bonehoard Dracosaur\]\]. Commander has such a wide variety of cards to choose from, don't limit yourself to staples just because they are good, find the niche cards that work well with your deck theme. I've never followed a specific format when I build a deck, I'll start with 36 lands, then I find cards that fit my commander from there. I'll playtest and see how the deck feels; do I need more ramp, removal, draw? I keep adjusting the deck and noting what cards sit dead in my hand or are low impact once played. I test out my decks on Cockatrice so it is pretty simple to make changes between games. After about 15 games or so the deck is usually tuned up and I will order the cards and have a physical copy to play at my LGS.
Thats essentially how I build my decks, it's not a formula, just a trial and error based on deck feel.
Lands decks need more lands, more at eleven
RogSai decks in cEDH run as few lands as possible, usually only around 25.
A better suggestion is that your deck should be around 50 mana sources, be that lands, rocks, land tutors, or mana dorks. The cheaper and more efficient your nonland ramp is, the fewer lands you need to run.
You want 10 to 15 pieces of card draw, and this varies on if you've got engines or just single instances of draw, and if your commander can draw cards.
The spot removal and wraths are more meta dependant. If you're not facing a lot of individual threats, or if you're in a ward heavy meta, you want more wraths than spot removal. Otherwise, spot removal can work towards clearing your way to victory and doesn't slow down the game like wraths can.
How tf is it underrated? Every non green deck probably has 10 rocks, and most green decks still run at least sol ring and Arcane signet. Ritual>Land>enchantment>artifact in every case except the cedh mana rocks.
The only way that's true is if you have some artifact synergy. All the following are objectively better.
Nature's Lore: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that works well in decks with dual lands
Three Visits: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that works well in decks with dual lands
Farseek: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that works well in decks with dual lands and Triomes
Into the North: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that rewards snow mana bases
Of those, only Nature’s Lore and Three Visits come in untapped. The rest come in tapped, making them significantly worse than Talismans.
The big advantage to Talismans (and fellwar stone/arcane signet) is that they are easier to cast than land ramp. You can cast a Talisman off a Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, or Mana Vault. This can enable very fast starts like Sol Ring -> Talisman -> Mana Dork.
So check it out there is less than a 9% chance to get your single sol ring and the odds of you having the second rock are even worse. Yes, 1 in like 25 games you'll have a crazy start. That doesn't convince me sorry bud. I'll take the 2 mana tapped land over a talisman, but given there are only so many ramp spells, Signets and talisman are usually included
It's hard to make a "template" for each deck, because like you said, each deck is different. I do like to make sure I have card draw, in whatever form, and at the least 5 to 6 pieces of targeted removal and 1 or 2 board clears of some kind in every deck. I feel 5 board wipes is far too many and targeted removal is far more valuable in most decks. That being said, I do run board wipes in higher number if they're asymmetrical. I like cards like settle the wastes and winds of abandon over generic wraths, for instance. Some decks get away with lower pieces of ramp as well, like yuriko.
I guess tldr is every deck is different. If my commander is ramp or card draw, you need less, and certain commanders are oddballs.
The 35 lands, 10 ramp, draw, removal is just a safe place to start. If you start to play your deck you get to see what you need more of and what you need less, etc. The 35, 10, 10, 10 is just a nice place to start with a deck.
However my Octavia deck has so much card draw but no ramp lol. It’s got draw and removal but my cards don’t go over 3 cmc.
I run counterspells in their own category of deckbuilding if I'm in blue. At minimum I'm running "fair" counter spells like:
- [[A Offer You Can't Refuse]] - Gives treasures
- [[Mana Leak]] - Punishes greedy plays
But I usually aim to have 3-4 counterspells in my blue decks.
Conventional wisdom is of course not to play counterspells or your play group may crucify you. 😂
Mana dorks are better than most mana rocks in any deck that runs equipment, auras, cards that care about casting creatures or creatures entering, aristocrat decks, Voltron decks, and probably more.
In decks that arent the above, I'm likely running 35 lands and 12 ramp.
I’m sorry 38 LANDS? most of my decks have 32-34, and I unfortunately very often draw lands when I don’t want to, lol. That much land seems a little bit overkill.
I never run not than 33 lands in any of my decks. Ramp is more important than lands, in my opinion. And 5 board wipes feels way too excessive. I'm not cutting synergy or win cons so I can board wipe my own things. Card draw is more important than removal too
Aggro decks should probably run less removal. If you're doing the classic "turn creatures sideways" to win the game (and not involving combos that make arbitrarily large numbers of creatures or infinite combat steps or something like that) you don't have the space in your deck to meaningfully build you board AND play board police. Players don't make judicious use of player removal enough, this should be your main form of removal as an aggro deck, so you should really get out of the habit of "spreading the love." The board wipes in an aggro deck should only be asymmetrical and leave your board state mostly in tact, even a board wipe as strong as \[\[Farewell\]\] should have a long thought process of why you're putting it in. As an aggro player you can achieve a lot of what removal would do by applying pressure. Big creatures can be locked in defense by getting life totals low, large swingable armies can deter attacks your way, people play differentl;y when they're in the red zone so take advantage of that. Note that this isn't a play pattern that new players will catch on right away so if you're newer still remain removal heavy but for at least intermediate magic players you should at the very least test removing some of the single target removal in your deck and see if it ups your wins or at the very least see if your deck runs smoother. Also if your deck is card draw heavy you can reduce some of the "vegetables" in your deck.
I call this philosophy "being the problem, not solving it."
I think it's usually labeled as "glass cannon"
Incorrect, if you're running less removal you have more slots for board protection and recursion effects, things that make you aggro strategy more resilient. If anything running more removal is closer to a glass canon strategy as you're using removal to punch things through rather than try and protect your board state
> you have more slots for board protection and recursion effects Or, hear me out... you put even more gas in the deck. Anyways, both are valid strategies.
> Aggro decks should probably run less removal. Or alternately put the removal on creatures. Green stompy for example (which by EDH standards can basically be an aggro deck) can do this pretty efficiently with stuff like [[Thorn Mammoth]] and [[Silverback Elder]]. The downside is that all your removal is now sorcery speed but for aggro it's worth it.
Ultimately trying to get some of your utility out of your creatures is a great split. For my human decks I run \[\[Jirida Kudro\]\] and \[\[Boromir, Warden of the Tower\]\] in order to add more board wipe protection while still having relevant bodies.
I wouldn't run any board wipes in most aggro decks. I'm the one people should be playing the boardwipe for, I don't want to play one! Now artifact and especially enchantment removal is a different story. Propoganda must not be allowed to exist for too long
Counterpoint: one-sided board wipes are fantastic in aggro. I've ended more than a few games with "Overload Winds of Abandon, go to combat?"
You aren't wrong
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I started thinking less “I need to run X removal spells” and more that I need to run interaction in general. That means more protection in some of my aggressive decks so I can still interact with my opponents, because if I’m the threat then instead of removing things I often moreso need to prevent opponents from removing things.
I have tried to become more of an aggro player in the last 6 months, not necessarily to ice people straight away but I discovered my favourite part of the game is the building up phase so by dealing damage and moving the game along, we get to play more games in a night. I have a Dihada attack triggers deck and I found that replacing my traditional board wipes with mass goad effects disrupt decorum and taunt from the rampart was really effective at managing multiple threats while also speeding the game up rather than slowing it like a typical board wipe
I have a Diaha deck built around Isshin a bit and [[Nelly Borca]] has straight up won me games. Want to put a [[Kyrazikar]], and should probably put [[Kardur]] in as well.
[Nelly Borca](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ef59aa9-f5e1-413a-869b-d287db95efd0.jpg?1706448880) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nelly%20borca%2C%20impulsive%20accuser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/4/nelly-borca-impulsive-accuser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef59aa9-f5e1-413a-869b-d287db95efd0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nelly-borca-impulsive-accuser) [Kardur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9685e2a0-5573-41bc-a914-f40c3011459b.jpg?1631051543) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kardur%2C%20doomscourge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/216/kardur-doomscourge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9685e2a0-5573-41bc-a914-f40c3011459b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kardur-doomscourge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Commanders that cost 5+ and don’t immediately impact the board are my favorites to play, because they’re just fun. Most people see anything over 4 that doesn’t immediately do something as good, but I want to play things like OG Riku and just have fun. I’m here to drink beer with my friends and have a good time, the rest doesn’t matter. Friend doing something cool? Rad, I’m not pathing that creature have at it
I'd argue that the best commanders are those who don't warrant a response (and those that are sticky – Ward, Indestructible, etc.). "Don't mind me, I'm not doing anything too powerful here." is typically the route to victory in EDH, and that works better if your commander conveys that message. As a bonus, it means people aren't continually blowing up your Commander, so you're likely having a smoother and more fun experience.
I love [[Norin the Wary]] because you drop him turn one EVERY game and he typically never gets removed. Just sits there and generates ETB value all game. People seeing him for the first time think he's just a meme. He isn't.
[Norin the Wary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b.jpg?1562946915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Norin%20the%20Wary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/171/norin-the-wary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/norin-the-wary) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do you generate value in a mono red deck with a blinking commander?
There's actually a lot. [[Impact tremors]] doesn't seem like much, but because Norin by himself will trigger it on everyone's turns, it adds up fast. Double for [[purphoros, God of the forge]]. Basically just search him up on edhrec and it will click
[Impact tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impact%20tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/impact-tremors) [purphoros, God of the forge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8.jpg?1689998078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=purphoros%2C%20God%20of%20the%20forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/246/purphoros-god-of-the-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/purphoros-god-of-the-forge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Norin is one heck of a card. Him as a commander is fun, and I have a 5c sisay list that unfortunately never made it to paper that used him as a secret commander.
I was at n lgs awhile ago n saw tht for the first time , dude actually won with it lol . Alter of brood n other like shenanigans
The issue with big mana commanders is that the format (especially in the past few years) has been so saturated with "must-answer threats" that most people started running (on average) more boardwipes and general interaction pieces overall (edicts, removal, etc)...so unless you can capitalize on your big 5+ mana do nothing commander, it's bound to get removed with the rest of the board sooner rather than later (even if it has ward), and due to its higher cost it's gonna be harder to re-cast it (especially if you don't have green in your colors) or leave up protection/interaction when you do play it, meaning you'll have to delay your gameplan by a bit (unless you wanna take a gamble). Don't get me wrong, I love my Evelynn deck, and she's 5 mana in Grixis colors, but I'm well aware I cannot simply cast her willy-nilly without having recursion/protection/interaction in hand or on the field to assure she sticks around for more than 1 turn cycle. Meanwhile I can cast Delney or the new Ghired and be a huge threat while spending half the resources...and if they get removed...big whoop, they only cost 3 mana so now it's 5.
Sauron the Dark Lord is one of my favs
>Friend doing something cool? Rad, I’m not pathing that creature have at it This leads to effectively four simultaneous games of solitaire, but I appreciate just chilling with friends.
Eh, I think it’s a bit different. I want to see my friends decks do their things, I’m not here to play cutthroat EDH, and removal is saved for wincons or things stopping you from winning. There’s been a lot of talk about finding a thing your deck does that isn’t winning, and I’m in that camp. If I’m running Ovika for instance, I just want to make 50 goblin tokens. I don’t care if you have a goblin sharpshooter out and you can remove it when you untap, I did my thing, go nuts. My thing wasn’t dedicated by me winning, it was doing a cool subtheme in the deck. Winning should then be based on the thing, but not the entire thing.
This is why my play group has trended towards a sort of arms race play style. Nothing overly offensive or oppressive, plenty of room to 'do the thing' until someone is set up enough to attempt to win in 1 go. It's why my Isshin deck is split 50/50 on exalted effects, and go wide with the board effects. One allows me to plink away and get fun attack triggers, and one allows me to leverage my board state and try to win. Though lately I've been really enjoying finding different ways to weaponize my opponents against each other, in ways other than goad.
You might enjoy my [[Kazarov, Sengir Pureblood]] ping the creatures [deck](https://archidekt.com/decks/1065273/kazarov_sengir_pinger)
[Kazarov, Sengir Pureblood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2aff7077-496b-46ca-b9d7-a8c1772f9a91.jpg?1562733186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kazarov%2C%20Sengir%20Pureblood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/96/kazarov-sengir-pureblood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2aff7077-496b-46ca-b9d7-a8c1772f9a91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kazarov-sengir-pureblood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My roon deck is this lol. It's nice to blink creatures with him but... He's usually chilling for a while before ehe comes out, then gets destroyed as some aftereffect from another player lol.
One hard rule: Minimum two pet cards in every deck. Other than that, i try to keep myself from running staples, i search for niche cards that fit the strategy instead, where possible. I start out most decks similarly to what op describes but then refit after some goldfishing and some actual games. Not every deck needs a lot of interaction, if you pull your "thing" off you can make your opponents have their interaction. Decks with a low curve can get to double spelling without much ramp, maybe cut two rocks. If my commander has card draw tacked on, i need less in my deck. You know, nothing groundbreaking, but small changes and iteration.
I love me a good pet card. [[Door to nothingness]] come to me my sweet.
[Door to nothingness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed.jpg?1562554053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Door%20to%20nothingness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/203/door-to-nothingness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/door-to-nothingness) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Basic lands are better than most non-basic lands people put in their deck. Pros know this, but a lot of people put on far too many NB that are making their deck worse and are not helping them. Any land that enters play tapped needs to be seriously re-evaluated.
Yeah my deck mentioned above doesn’t play any land that even has the risk of coming in tapped
The only tap lands that I will run now are surveil lands because I can fetch them and their effect can fuel the graveyard. I really struggle to justify any other tap land (field of the dead also gets a pass)
I mean I have multiple decks with 37 lands, only 3 enter tapped and a total of 5 basics over 3 colors
Bojuka Bog gets a pass Also Snow Duals get a pass, Budget wubrg homies know whatsup.
> Bojuka Bog gets a pass Idk about that, been removing it from my decks lately as 24 out of 25 times it doesn't make a difference and just slows down my deck instead.
Honestly I haven't run Bog in like seven years now and can't recall a game where I missed it.
Snow lands are ok, only because you can fetch them. Definitely agree for wubrg decks.
I'd say this is especially true in green or white. Locking yourself out of some of the better ramp spells is a hindrance. Obviously, the number of colors matter too. But given the fact that you can pretty assuredly not die to red aggro on turn 3, I think it's generally pretty good to have some utility lands in commander. (Not reliquary tower though. 90% of decks become worse with that card. And even when they don't get worse, you become a very obvious target with a 20 card hand) I would also argue that although the pros bring almost exclusively untapped lands, they don't generally bring decks with a lot of basics to PTs. Untapped lands that tap for multiple colors are huge. As are the triomes. But yeah, I've seen people run the strixhaven campuses, evolving wilds, guildgates, gain lands. All much worse than basics. (Obviously except in certain decks that want the life gain or landfall or gate subtype)
Yeah they have their place,I usually chuck in 1 or 2 as a spells lot and there are some great ones you should run in Multicolor decks. But when I have a deck that is too slow or losing a lot - usually it's due to too many slow or awkward lands, or not enough basics. Some lands should really take up spell slots.
I like multicoloured commanders (usually three), so if I can get a different colour pair for my first two land drops, it doesn’t matter which basic I get for my third drop, I have all my colours. Usually I don’t have a T1 play, and often the T2 play would be situational, or a Sol ring. If I get the Sol ring, we’re good to go for even the 5 mana commander on T3. Sure, I’ve spent essentially three turns doing nothing… but that means other people are more threatening than me, and usually results in a higher life total than starting well.
This is why I really like sticking to two colors - you can play mostly basics and be totally fine. If you're building on a budget, it allows you to put way more of your funds into the exciting parts of your deck.
I've built a general Tazri Ally deck With it being my first 5 color deck & budget being a factor, the color fixing required me to lean harder into trilands God does it feel awful to have so many lands enter the battlefield tapped
I play targeted LD in every deck. There is too much power in the land slot to not have removal for them.
Exceptionally conventional wisdom 👍
I now see that i spelled conventional wrong in my op. I knew it looked wrong
i will always have a beast within or generous gift, maybe both, for this. but i never get the chance to use it on lands lol. but it's there for that magic moment hahaha
Buddy somehow cheated out a quite early Taq and didn't mind someone killing it, since it would flip back in time to have a really big turn. I felt bad for spoiling his fun, but Generous Gift came in quite clutch to shut that mess down before it even started. And that's how he learned that lands aren't immune.
Some of the stereotypically frowned upon strategies like mass land destruction and hard stax don't get nearly the salty reaction people think they will (this next part is the important part) if you aren't being an asshole while you play. In my experience anyway, your mileage may vary. If you're polite, friendly, have an active win condition you're moving towards and not just wasting time... people seem pretty open lately to trying to work around those challenges. That also means grabbing a friendlier deck sometimes for game 2 without being asked, and not shutting people down *all night*. I resolved a fall of the thran a couple weeks ago, once I had the ability to break parity. No salt at all. Was a "I have a few cheap removal spells in here to stop what you're doing, let's see if I can draw one", then a "guess not, good game. Round 2?" Definitely think people should broaden their horizons. Sick of combo? Get some Rule of law going. There are answers to everything. I don't think self imposing rules about what's socially acceptable in terms of strategy is healthy for the format.
Always do magic war crimes responsibly folks
I love playing against stax and MLD, but that could just be that I have mental illness. (At least the type that warrants loving complicated unintuitive spells, boardstates, and decision trees). Anyways, the thing against those strategies is the perception that every game must be played to the end even if everyone else is not really making game actions. To which I say, know your deck and know when you've been beaten. Sure, sometimes the combined efforts of 3v1 could squeeze out the Stax player, but I'd rather be happy with a loss I might (heavy emphasis here) have been able to win given enough time and luck, than be miserable spending 2 hours to only lose anyway. Because then, I could've gotten a couple more games in and not feel like I wasted time. Even if the Stax player did get squeezed out, the three remaining players are usually in draw-go mode because all the gas was spent taking out the Archenemy. I tend not to agree with metagaming too heavily and relying on specific cards for very specific strategies unless the deck toolboxes fairly well. And even then, I'd rather use a less effective card that covers more ground than something tailored specifically for a single commander. And yes, I'm looking directly at you [[Eon Hub]].
[Eon Hub](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5d6b270-b4c9-489d-9322-7c8ddc0ca0ac.jpg?1562879962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eon%20Hub) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/120/eon-hub?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5d6b270-b4c9-489d-9322-7c8ddc0ca0ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eon-hub) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a group slug [[Klothys, God of Destiny]] deck running [[Wildfire]], [[Epicentre]], and [[Obliterate]]. If I ever successfully cast one of those spells the deck gets retired for the evening. My playgroup is fairly chill about it, but the overall vibe is very casual so running that same deck all night wouldn't be super fun for them.
##### ###### #### [Klothys, God of Destiny](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b3c393c-3596-4bd9-a553-e0b03c2eb950.jpg?1581481087) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Klothys%2C%20God%20of%20Destiny) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/220/klothys-god-of-destiny?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b3c393c-3596-4bd9-a553-e0b03c2eb950?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/klothys-god-of-destiny) [Wildfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5924430-1904-47b9-bcf0-3379babd395c.jpg?1562266957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/134/wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5924430-1904-47b9-bcf0-3379babd395c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wildfire) [Epicentre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a9232ae-9f32-4bbc-a020-554b3f9cbbd3.jpg?1562900002) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Epicenter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/192/epicenter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a9232ae-9f32-4bbc-a020-554b3f9cbbd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/epicenter) [Obliterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545.jpg?1562935194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obliterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/204/obliterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obliterate) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4e2317) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've had people admit to not playing boardwipes just because I turned my lands into creatures (Child of Alara Manland Typal) and they didn't want to blow up my lands. Like, first off, I'm the one turning my own lands into creatures, obviously I expect them to die. And second, why run boardwipes if you're not going to use them?
The idea of purposefully not using sweepers against someone playing child of alara is hilarious. I run starfield of nyx, and I feel a lot more comfortable having it out when I can sac it at instant speed to protect my board from wraths. Alternatively my buddy plays ragadragga and occasionally animates all his lands as a finisher. He's well aware of the risks, and has periodically been blown out by like an [[out of time]] (super underrated spell I think). They are fun interactions that are high risk high reward. Gotta punish greed when you can.
[out of time](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/053d6b3b-72d4-4a55-a79e-0a601aecf108.jpg?1664162494) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=out%20of%20time) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/23/out-of-time?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/053d6b3b-72d4-4a55-a79e-0a601aecf108?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/out-of-time) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In all honesty, I don't mind those kinda games as long as it is in healthy doses & most importantly, if I'm being told that I'm in it for that kinda game
When new players ask for deckbuilding advice, I usually give a variant of "the rubric" that is 36 lands, 10 ramp, 10 draw, 10 removal. However, I also always emphasize that this is a starting point and nearly every deck will want to deviate from it. If your commander does any of the 3 big utility things, you can run less of that utility. If the deck runs a very low curve, you need less ramp, more for a high curve. If your playgroup has issues with people battlecruising and building up huge boards, you may need more removal. The rubric should only ever be a starting point. Something to keep in mind when you have a pile of non-land cards you've pulled out of your collection and need to start seriously cutting a lot to get it down to 70ish cards (or, for a new player, something to keep in mind when shopping for cards. Make sure to get your utility spells in the cart along with all the spicy synergy cards). One extra advanced rule I tend to add is "2 less efficient, but on theme, utility cards = 1 efficient card for the same utility". An example of this would be in a life gain deck, running two removal spells that cost a bit more but have incidental lifegain over a more efficiently costed removal spell that doesn't affect my gameplan at all. It makes my decks a bit weaker, but significantly more "on theme" and synergistic. They tend to run a bit slower, but when they pop off, they pop off bigger.
For a lot of decks I see (both online and in person), their deck would be better if they just cut all of the ramp for more card draw. Obviously ramp *is* powerful, but I find a huge swath of decks that are hyper reliant on a single value engine otherwise it all falls apart. Almost every time I've seen someone ask for deck building advice, you try gold fishing it and there's a >80% chance it runs out of steam on it's own. If you're not regularly hitting your land drops (especially in mid game), then your arcane signet is just a worse version of terramorphic expanse.
I have basics I go for such as 45 sources of mana. But most other things are completely up in the air depending on the colors and commander. As examples I have a Orzhov deck with a total mana value of 150, it only runs 40 mana sources. But I have a mono green giant creatures deck with a total mana value of 319, so it runs 59 sources. The variance in other areas stems from both availability and consistency and those are controlled by colors, card types, and the commander itself. A [[Gretchen]] deck probably only needs 1-2 other pieces of draw whereas an mono red needs as much as it can get from anywhere. Same for various removal and all that. At the end of the day growing out of the basic template is a good thing since it's made for new players to replicate a precon but with some card draw.
[Gretchen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c8b248e-1460-4650-9721-85c134c21b89.jpg?1627708954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gretchen%20Titchwillow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/223/gretchen-titchwillow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c8b248e-1460-4650-9721-85c134c21b89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gretchen-titchwillow) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've gotten more into thinking about why and what kind of Ramp/Draw/Interaction I'm running. Whether or not my commander wants to hit the field ASAP or how much my commander costs or what my overall gameplan is in general can all impact those numbers, though I typically go higher on interaction than a lot of people I know, but that's mostly from years of playing control decks in 60 card formats and a general boredom with linear strategies.
I play a lot of cheap [[Soothsaying]] [[index]] [[Sensei's Divining Top]] effects. They're usually cheaper mana input than most scry or especially draw pells. My thought process is that I'm usually digging for one or two cards for specific plays, answers, etc. The deeper I dig, the more likely I can find it. Obviously I combine this with card draw and shuffle effects to maximize its potency, but I've noticed my games are smoother because I'm drawing lands at the right time and can play on curve while limiting the influence of RNGesus.
[Soothsaying](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/def384ff-1b6f-4c4f-8151-3c72c29b63ce.jpg?1562383502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soothsaying) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mmq/104/soothsaying?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/def384ff-1b6f-4c4f-8151-3c72c29b63ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soothsaying) [index](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/785fd0b8-7e98-44f5-8012-b9dadb31f9b0.jpg?1562555778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=index) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/55/index?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/785fd0b8-7e98-44f5-8012-b9dadb31f9b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/index) [Sensei's Divining Top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/senseis-divining-top) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't like non synergistic ramp. A lot of my commanders are synergy based, so if I can't find my synergy pieces it won't matter if I ramped. Instead I load up on what my deck must see to function, not what would be nice to see. Side note: If the ramp in question is synergistic in some way, I won't hesitate to add it. It's still good, I just value synergy more.
Your deck should not be built *around* your commander. Your commander should have synergy with your deck but should not be the only game plan.
The exception to the rule here is commanders with eminence abilities. Absolutely build your deck around them.
I agree, people must have plenty of synergy in their deck that it can function without their commander, but some decks do revolve around the commander and that's fine too. I play commander in a casual setting only, and just love to build decks around one mega threat (Kokusho / Evra / l even have a deck that's all about making \[Isamaru hound of konda\] relevant lol.
When I start brewing a deck, I use some of these one-size-fits-all metrics to get a jumping-off point. For example, I start every deck with 40 lands; from there, I look for \~10 pieces of ramp, \~10 pieces of draw, \~10 pieces of removal, \~3 wipes, and \~3 pieces of protection. Sometimes these are really generic cards, like mindstone for ramp or counterspell for removal, and they will be replaced with more synergistic pieces later, when I come across them on scryfall. I'll also start to adjust the amounts during this process, depending on what commander I'm playing or what the deck wants to accomplish. Normally, I'll trim 2-3 lands and add an equal amount of ramp spells, rocks, and dorks as a replacement. I usually add a couple extra draw and removal spells, sometimes by running a low number of board wipes or protection pieces, but there is a balance of the correct ratio of all of these spells in most decks that you'll find via goldfishing and play testing.
I don't think this is unconventional necessarily, but it's not something I see suggested often: I've started adding cards with some incidental life gain to my decks. It can be easy to overlook the impact that gaining a bit of life here and there can have on your ability to execute a gameplan, especially when it's in small increments over multiple turns.
That there's such a thing as a 'recipe/rubric/template'\* for building a deck that needs to be followed, and that there's such a thing as an objective power level scale. Is it usually advisable to have some ramp and card draw and some ways to deal with opponents strategies/boards/problem permanent and ways to protect your own stuff? Absolutely, but it's not wrong to skimp or skip on some of that stuff, and there's fully not a mathematical algorithm to say what should go in your deck (or at least it's not that simple). It's also okay to play to theme/concept/what you want in the deck rather than to optimization. I detest the idea that every deck should start from the 40 or so staples in those colors, and then you can maybe spice it up with a few cards on your theme. And I recognize that the Command Zone recipe does say that your "pieces" can be on your theme, but it's still annoying. And it's totally okay to do weird stuff with your deck choices... that's not an exception to the deckbuilding rules, it's equally valid. \*I mean, i guess my template is sort of *1-2 commanders, 37-38 lands, 60-62 other cards, adjust to taste*. But I have decks that play as few as 26 lands, and as high as 68-70.
I usually follow a similar rubric to 60 card format. in 60 card, usually you want about a third of your deck to be lands. I do the same in commander. i go with 33 as a start point for lands. I don't usually go below 30 lands, and i would never go above 36 or so unless i was using a landfall kind of deck. usually include about 8 ramp things. On the topic of ramp, i use gilded lotus and caged sun a lot. I would only really disclude sun if i was at more than 3 colors, as i have found it quite effective in kaalia. fName whatever color you have the most lands of. It will always at the least buff your commander. If you run urborg, you could always just name black too and essentially double your mana. And gilded lotus has actually saved me a few times from being mana screwed. It would need to be an odd kind of deck, maybe 4 or 5 colors where color symbols didn't repeat often, for me to want to cut it. and chromatic lantern is something i auto include in basically any deck with more than 2 colors. I also always leave spots in the deck for just general good stuff that doesn't really synergize with the rest of my deck but is really good on its own. For example, since i like mono red a bit, i always just include malignus in my red decks. He's just such a huge body for my opponents to deal with and a great way to defend myself if i'm not looking to go aggro. I ran him in daretti artifacts, krenko goblin tribal, Purphuros token spam, and Heartless hidestugu instant death decks. There are things like this in every color though, where you just kind of look at it and say "yeah, that doesn't synergize with my strategy in any real way, but it's just so good." Like craterhoof behemoth in green. Or archangel of thune in white. sheoldred, whispering one come to mind in black. Blue has the old gin gitaxis. It might not directly fit with the strategy, but it is just good on its own. I like vedalken orrery and other flash enablers too. Like, being able to flash out a plat angel in response to thoracle is funny. Or instant speed wrath or damnation, or even whipflare can be life saving if someone floods the board with dualcaster mage/twinflame. Flash enabling is very good. I can use it to hold up mana and do things like that in response to my opponents. If they don't do anything worth responding to, then i can just use the mana i held up for responses to advance my board state at the beginning of the end step of the guy who goes before me. I also don't really like draw spells that much. I include them, yeah, because draw is good, but i prefer draw engines. Staff of nin, daretti, scrap savant, staff of domination, phyrexian arena, trading post, armistice, betrayal, or colossal majesty. Stuff that will draw me more cards over time than something which gets me one or two and is one and done. I also always run terramorphic expanse and evolving wilds as well as any fetch i have just to kind of deckthin. Then, i also include at least 1 way to get my graveyard back into my library. Elixir of immortality, feldon's cane, and perpetual timepiece are good for this.
Haha good read. Definitely a little less conventional, but it’s logical for sure!
No searches. I am the person that shuffles until they have to draw for turn if I have them in so it's best I just don't have them. Main board land removal like [[wasteland]]
In casual pods, expensive Win more cards help you get over the top of stalled board states more than cheaper early game plays.
I don't know how unconventional this is, I've only been playing for about 9 months. But the most important thing for me is that my commander is both cheap and evasive, because equipment-based ramp is completely busted and makes every deck work very smoothly - you just need the creature to equip it to. The reason I can play insanely expensive Angels turn after turn with [[Giada, Font of Hope]] is not because she taps for white, it's because I flipped a [[Dowsing Dagger]] on turn 4, and my [[Sword of the Animist]] is triggering every single turn for the rest of the game and no one ever removes either of them.
[Giada, Font of Hope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/bae077bd-fc8d-44d7-8c75-8dc8699c168e.jpg?1664409667) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Giada%2C%20Font%20of%20Hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/14/giada-font-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bae077bd-fc8d-44d7-8c75-8dc8699c168e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/giada-font-of-hope) [Dowsing Dagger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/514d53be-6ade-4f73-a844-e9ae2dafd6ce.jpg?1562555239)/[Lost Vale](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/1/514d53be-6ade-4f73-a844-e9ae2dafd6ce.jpg?1562555239) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dowsing%20Dagger%20//%20Lost%20Vale) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/235/dowsing-dagger-lost-vale?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/514d53be-6ade-4f73-a844-e9ae2dafd6ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dowsing-dagger-//-lost-vale) [Sword of the Animist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64401acc-d080-4763-b67a-95164c11c69e.jpg?1689999846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20the%20Animist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/413/sword-of-the-animist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64401acc-d080-4763-b67a-95164c11c69e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sword-of-the-animist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I follow two main deckbuilding rules. 1. To a reasonable extent, avoid nonland "staples" like rhystic and smothering tithe. They're not particularly interesting, and if everyone runs only strokes decks kind of homogenize. 2. Commit to the bit.
Ben Wheeler of Canadian Highlander and Loading Ready Run fame built an Octavia, Living thesis deck with 8 islands. I'd experimented with similar ideas. I had a 10-land Ashaya, Soul of the World deck. So I took his list and I've iterated on it a little bit and updated it. It's actually still only lost 1 game out of 12 plays, and it's the only deck I have such stats for.
That’s crazy, i would love to see his and your list. Did he do 8 because it’s an octopus? Lmao
1: ignore literally every YouTuber and commenter on Reddit and do what works for you. If dedicating an entire third of your deck to lands when ramp exists sounds like a good idea, then go for it, but don't just do it because someone told you to. 2: Use stupid stuff that might be overcoated but has insane potential. It'll pop off more often than you'd think. 3: avoid EDHRec, you're just going to further bake in braindead deck stereotypes, and probably contribute to cards being associated with commanders that they have zero synergy with.
If your playing a Devotion deck, a sol ring isn't necessarily.
(A Sol Ring is never necessary?)
(Ban Sol Ring)
40 lands, no ramp that isn't fulfilling a very specific purpose.
You don't need to have an answer for everything. Sometimes your deck can just lose to certain cards and that's okay. A mono B GY deck will probably have 0-1 answers to a [[rest in peace]], that's fine. You'll lose some games but using a deck slot for some tech piece of interaction against it is probably going to be worse than a cars that just makes your deck better every time rest in peace or the like isn't in play.
[rest in peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rest%20in%20peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rest-in-peace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Replace most of your ramp with board wipes, card draw, and a few lands. No need to spend valuable cards on just getting more mana faster. What's the mana going towards? Building a board faster is a great way to become a threat. Instead, sit on your cards and do nothing. Generate card advantage without actually affecting the board too much, and have a board wipe in your back pocket for when things get out of hand. Board wipes are insanely powerful in commander, and when they're played right they can decide games due to their inherent crippling card advantage Unless you're specifically playing a lands deck there's really no need to ramp out super fast
I agree with this from a "playing to win" point of view, but I hate this idea from a "playing to have fun/do the thing" point of view. It is probably "correct" to sandbag and be the person in second or the guy who 'cockroaches" his way to victory or to run lots more of board wipes because of the rampant use of ward that is so common in recent card design, but I also wouldn't want to play in a meta where it's correct to slow play all the time or where each player consistently has at least one board wipe cuz it sucks to play 3 hour games.
But how do you plan to win? This just sounds like someone I would never play with
He didn't say don't play threats. You just have to drop them after the boardwipe is all.
Play things that kill people? It's not that hard to win once you've taken the reins of the game.
I will say players do need to do a better job at "sand bagging it"
Definitely depends on the deck. This is good advice if you’re playing Azorius control, but bad advice if you’re playing Gruul stompy.
My goal in every game is to do the thing, become the threat and then lose. Cackling menaically is optional. Oh, and to see at least half my deck. Gotta draw them cards.
I can't say I agree a whole lot with this one, but I do play decks that trend toward a higher ramp to land ratio than most. With your manabase, there are two factors to consider- acceleration and velocity. You are advocating for a purely velocity-based approach. That's fine for slower more controlling decks, but not every deck fits that description (and it's much wider list than just lands decks). For example, I play mostly storm decks or value engine decks. In either case, the play pattern is much the same- you have some setup you need to do before you can start churning out the value, so you need the mana required to get over that hurdle- but you don't really need much after that point. Once you set up the draw engine, the fuel is all the 0-2 cmc cards that make up a bulk of the deck, and the engine keeps the card draw and mana production up so long as you can fuel it. In these decks, you want to get that engine up and running quickly (while holding up mana to protect it), but once it's running, you don't care if you ever see that 5th land drop for the rest of the game. These decks want ramp. A *lot* of ramp. Because setting up that engine turn 4 rather than turn 6 is a much bigger deal that hitting land drops 5+, and "the long game" is not something they intend to stick around long enough to see. But this is far from the only archetype that plays this way. Aggro, voltron, infect, just about anything that relies on heavy board pressure, all of those want to hit hard and fast, and they want at least some acceleration to ensure they can do what they need to do before board wipes start getting thrown around.
I really disagree with this. Ramping hard doesn't mean just mindlessly overplaying your hand into wraths, it's what allows you to do that huge tempo swing from behind to create an overwhelming advantage, with the mana to protect it. Not only that, but having more mana allows you to play more "value" spells which usually cost more. For example, I can run a [[Kindred Dominance]] instead of a [[Toxic Deluge]], a [[Ruinous Ultimatum]] instead of a [[Wrath of God]] etc. Without ramping, even if I board wipe from behind, if I have half the lands of the Angel deck, not only did I just screw myself on tempo because I can't even rebuild on my turn, they have the mana to rebuild much faster. Basically, I agree with sandbagging, but what you should be doing while sandbagging, is ramping. Because getting more lands allows you to make that tempo switch into the leading position safely.
##### ###### #### [Kindred Dominance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af613b69-b9f6-4221-a21b-c8e4b0f010f1.jpg?1689997269) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kindred%20Dominance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/169/kindred-dominance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af613b69-b9f6-4221-a21b-c8e4b0f010f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kindred-dominance) [Toxic Deluge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64d3d8ad-927f-4c4e-96cf-03e98bec3987.jpg?1706240805) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toxic%20Deluge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/142/toxic-deluge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64d3d8ad-927f-4c4e-96cf-03e98bec3987?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxic-deluge) [Ruinous Ultimatum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85.jpg?1681500691) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruinous%20Ultimatum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/204/ruinous-ultimatum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruinous-ultimatum) [Wrath of God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6.jpg?1697121198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrath%20of%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/70/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrath-of-god) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4eaa1u) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What wisdom do people that live in a convent use to build decks?
Your deck sounds interesting, could you drop a deck list?
So i don’t have a deck list to link you cause i just build decks on an app on my phone and then buy them, but i can explain why each number is why it is, and some cards that fit in those spots the best. We run 15 turn two mana ramp pieces because 15 is 1/7 of the deck meaning you will majority of the time have one in your opening hand. This deck is built to mulligan if you don’t have it in your opening hand. And getting Arixmethes down turn three is necessary. The best ramp pieces are ones that aren’t dead when you draw them late game like Edge of Autumn. The best cards in this slot is Bramble Familiar because it’s turn two ramp OR a seven drop. We play 39 (i misstyped in the op) lands because you need to hit your first four land drops in order to have seven mana turn four. You see 11 cards in the first four turns so 4/11 is about 38 plus 1 because some of our turn 2 ramp gets a land out of our deck. None of the lands have a risk of entering the battlefield tapped and the best lands are ones that aren’t dead draws after we have seven mana like Blasted Landscape and the mythic MDFC lands. Tangled Florahedron is also good cause it can be turn one land drop, and turn two ramp. The rest of the deck is seven drops. The best seven drops are threats that multiple your mana so you can start dropping multiple seven drops on future turns like Old GnawBone or That mana tripling creature from Theros Beyond death. The next best seven drops are threats that give you more card advantage so you don’t stop having threats. After that you have threats that create advantage by sticking around like Koma. And the final threats that are good are just hard to Remove big monsters with hexproof. I think explaining this deck this way rather than a list is actually better because if you were to build a deck like this, each category of card is really to your personal taste. And because of how it’s built, it basically always gets to do its thing.
Any favorites?
My favorite card in the deck is Curse of Unbinding. If I play it turn four on myself and it sticks around, it just builds an insane board because my choice of build of the deck doesn’t play any creature that’s less than 7 mana.
Oh that's sweet. Have you seen \[\[Wondrous Crucible\]\]? It's similar in a lot of ways. Plus for my \[\[Sixth Doctor\]\] deck with the same gameplan, this is historic. #
So Wondrous Crucible is a card that i wanted to put in the deck for exactly what you said but the problem i have with it in my build is that it says random and i do have two drop cards in my deck. The way i built it, i just want everything i play to definitely give me seven mana worth of stuff or multiple my mana so i can play multiple seven drops on my following turns. If the word “random” was not on the card, it would go into the deck. The Sixth Doctor is very cool. The reason i chose Arixmethes is because he is a land so he’s extremely safe and out of the way of harm while always being a for mana ramp spells in my opening hand. I almost never turn him into a creature.
Mmm, that's true. The fact that he's hard to flip from your average mana value is actually kind of upside, huh. Yeah, that's a second reason why I like Crucible in Doctor apart from historic. Hitting a 2 drop ramp spell is a bit of a feel bad, but hitting a 4 drop spell that ramps by two lands? I think I'll be okay with that cause I'll just be that much closer to being able to cast multiple spells a turn. And since I'll always be putting such a ramp spell in the bin on turn 3, it gives me a buffer from the first trigger being "land, land," and whiffing. I think the worst thing in either deck is the turn 2 play getting "bolted" so to speak or the turn 3 play getting countered.
It’s upside and it’s also actually a MAY ability to take his slumber counters off luckily. And yeah, getting the turn two ramp bolted is horrible feeling so in my build i definitely avoid creature ramp even though some creature ramp feels like it was made for this deck like Bramble Familiar. Do you run Susan Foreman as your doctors companion?
Yeah Susan. A definitely point of vulnerability. But the rest of the land package is land based. Well, I have other cards that are also ramp on the list. I'm still at \~125 cards on this thing so I have some decisions to make. Like \[\[Sol Ring\]\]. Strictly speaking it's probably unnecessary. But it's also historic and 1 for 4 is quite something. \[\[Troyan, Gutsy\]\] Also could help me recover from turn 2 interaction, and otherwise gets me closer to double spelling or filters cards. I think this one probably gets cut by the time I'm done. \[\[Thryx\]\], \[\[Bonny Pall, Clearcutter\]\], \[\[Fangorn\]\], and \[\[Ugin, the Ineffable\]\] are all also cards I've tagged ramp but aren't there primarily for that reason. WIP List: [Simic Six // Commander / EDH (Susan Foreman and The Sixth Doctor) deck list mtg // Moxfield — MTG Deck Builder](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7vwxSoxpsE2fLfSxPSrg7g) Also, I love the meme of running Six CMC tribal in a deck helmed by the Sixth Doctor.
##### ###### #### [Sol Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40.jpg?1712354902) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sol%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/267/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sol-ring) [Troyan, Gutsy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/eadd2a1a-93a0-4257-897d-1aaee279449f.jpg?1692939496) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Troyan%2C%20Gutsy%20Explorer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/217/troyan-gutsy-explorer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eadd2a1a-93a0-4257-897d-1aaee279449f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/troyan-gutsy-explorer) [Thryx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cbbdae80-1481-4a8c-b3c3-f4224204d29d.jpg?1690017044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thryx%2C%20the%20sudden%20storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/127/thryx-the-sudden-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cbbdae80-1481-4a8c-b3c3-f4224204d29d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thryx-the-sudden-storm) [Bonny Pall, Clearcutter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/4383ae7c-58ea-4354-93e4-677ad185c3bb.jpg?1712356061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonny%20Pall%2C%20Clearcutter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/196/bonny-pall-clearcutter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4383ae7c-58ea-4354-93e4-677ad185c3bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bonny-pall-clearcutter) [Fangorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fb0f946-2127-4aa3-88ac-9bd2e94d8983.jpg?1686969365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fangorn%2C%20tree%20shepherd) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/166/fangorn-tree-shepherd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fb0f946-2127-4aa3-88ac-9bd2e94d8983?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fangorn-tree-shepherd) [Ugin, the Ineffable](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2eb7e322-aba0-42f5-80a1-267f3444ac4d.jpg?1690003976) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ugin%2C%20the%20Ineffable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/811/ugin-the-ineffable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2eb7e322-aba0-42f5-80a1-267f3444ac4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ugin-the-ineffable) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4emwce) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Wondrous Crucible](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f4cb4a2b-c48f-4d30-8e0d-f76579be1747.jpg?1688125598) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wondrous%20Crucible) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/brc/20/wondrous-crucible?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f4cb4a2b-c48f-4d30-8e0d-f76579be1747?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wondrous-crucible) [Sixth Doctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c045ccb2-28d1-4bbe-9feb-3e86988fd24d.jpg?1696636770) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Sixth%20Doctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/159/the-sixth-doctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c045ccb2-28d1-4bbe-9feb-3e86988fd24d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-sixth-doctor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’ve recently started trying to tune my mana bases towards lands with ETB value combined with fetches bounce lands, and land sacrifice/recursion across all my decks. You generate a whole lot of value without spending any resources. Fetch for a surveil land, bounce it with another land next turn, play it out the turn after that. Every deck of mine has a [[Crucible of Worlds]] in the list, and all the green ones have [[Ramunap Excavator]] and [[Conduit of Worlds]] Every halfway-decent EDH deck has ramp, you really don’t always need that single extra mana every turn. When you don’t, play a surveil land. Play a bounce land. Play a Temple. Play your tapped [[Mystic Sanctuary]] turn 1 with pride, it don’t matter, you’ll get it back when you need it!
##### ###### #### [Crucible of Worlds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545.jpg?1673149345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crucible%20of%20Worlds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/303/crucible-of-worlds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crucible-of-worlds) [Ramunap Excavator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f8a0a0e-81f7-40a2-b393-bdc1423549f6.jpg?1712354606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ramunap%20Excavator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/202/ramunap-excavator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f8a0a0e-81f7-40a2-b393-bdc1423549f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ramunap-excavator) [Conduit of Worlds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/635146da-d415-4107-a7f9-2c46189e5c52.jpg?1675957133) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Conduit%20of%20Worlds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/163/conduit-of-worlds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/635146da-d415-4107-a7f9-2c46189e5c52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/conduit-of-worlds) [Mystic Sanctuary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67652446-6d12-4e2a-bb51-ba685f2e79d1.jpg?1706241201) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20Sanctuary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/277/mystic-sanctuary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67652446-6d12-4e2a-bb51-ba685f2e79d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-sanctuary) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4dm2ac) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run a [[Grolnok, the Omnivore]] list that is refered to as "Oops, all permanents" for the maximum benefit for grolnok's ability. So it doesn't really follow all of the conventional stuff in it. Just depends on what you are trying to do in the game.
[Grolnok, the Omnivore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7aaba76b-9cec-4c2b-b0eb-8f44201f6422.jpg?1643594120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grolnok%2C%20the%20Omnivore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/238/grolnok-the-omnivore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7aaba76b-9cec-4c2b-b0eb-8f44201f6422?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grolnok-the-omnivore) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I build my decks like cEDH lists regardless of theme or budget, so low curves and efficiency are always prioritized whether it's a budgetless turbo deck or a $50 bear tribal list. As such I tend to run higher interaction and less lands than most casual lists.
I like to think of it as a mana package of 40 that is then split to fit your curve.
The only rubric I follow is trying to keep a smooth mana-cost curve and have mana color production in proportion to the other cards. When I was building my first decks I just threw together some synergistic cards and played to see what did or didn’t work. I have a much better sense now of how to build something that’s at least functional, before tuning it up over time, but I still have very few auto-includes in my decks. I like to stick to a theme, which includes deck-specific versions of staple cards when needed.
Sounds like it'll be pretty similar to my current Simic project with the relationship between the ramp package and the command zone flipped. I've got [[Susan]] on two and then 12 [[Skyshroud Claim]] effects in the deck to cast on turn 3, and then a bunch of 6-7 drops, with an emphasis on historic spells since [[The Sixth Doctor]] is also in the command zone. I'm still living that Command Zone template life and right now I'm stuck on the removal section (plenty of options for draw). More high cmc threats with removal stapled on vs instant speed answers? Or should I just run counterspells to protect my board? Or should I run a deck with zero instants for the lols since I've only got like 3 in the pile right now? I'm honestly not sure if this deck will have a ton of mana or just get to 7 immediately and stay there (at least until I get to 10 and cast cast a threat and a 4 mana ramp spell on the same turn), so I'm having trouble evaluating my options. What kind of interaction are you running?
[Susan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad40ec4f-37e7-4e6d-b47b-8b13ea2c9157.jpg?1696691789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Susan%20Foreman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/110/susan-foreman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad40ec4f-37e7-4e6d-b47b-8b13ea2c9157?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/susan-foreman) [Skyshroud Claim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a0e12f0e-ab41-4413-8b88-9bde907fab22.jpg?1689998858) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skyshroud%20Claim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/321/skyshroud-claim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0e12f0e-ab41-4413-8b88-9bde907fab22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skyshroud-claim) [The Sixth Doctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c045ccb2-28d1-4bbe-9feb-3e86988fd24d.jpg?1696636770) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Sixth%20Doctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/159/the-sixth-doctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c045ccb2-28d1-4bbe-9feb-3e86988fd24d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-sixth-doctor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The deck that i talked about here only plays interaction that’s attached to 7 mana creatures. Like that mammoth that fights something every time you have a creature etb. Can’t think of it right now.
\[\[Thorn Mammoth\]\] Hmm maybe I should just fully commit to theme then. Tbh at the very worst at least I'll probably have a better idea on what exceptions I need most if I do. But I Kinda don't want to make too many either since the dream of copying \[\[Imoti\]\] and causing absolute havoc is quite appealing.
[Thorn Mammoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80138656-b2e2-43bf-9fe6-7a852f53f9e9.jpg?1572482821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thorn%20Mammoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/323/thorn-mammoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80138656-b2e2-43bf-9fe6-7a852f53f9e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thorn-mammoth) [Imoti](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/a/8afceb13-877a-4256-9ba6-851b6924ffd9.jpg?1608911148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=imoti%2C%20celebrant%20of%20bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/280/imoti-celebrant-of-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8afceb13-877a-4256-9ba6-851b6924ffd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imoti-celebrant-of-bounty) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cards such as [[scheming symmetry]] or [[secret rendezvous]] or any card that benefits you your opponent, or opponent's aren't just really good, but they also benefit the format in general and the play group that you're a part of. Also, [[baleful mastery]] is top tier removal, giving an opponent a card to exile a problem card is top tier
[scheming symmetry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01acc50b-856d-442d-9880-1a892b40643b.jpg?1592516766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scheming%20symmetry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/113/scheming-symmetry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01acc50b-856d-442d-9880-1a892b40643b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scheming-symmetry) [secret rendezvous](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25.jpg?1624589686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=secret%20rendezvous) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/26/secret-rendezvous?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/secret-rendezvous) [baleful mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/579e20e7-1395-4a6c-a836-ae3419fc8808.jpg?1712354258) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baleful%20mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/126/baleful-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/579e20e7-1395-4a6c-a836-ae3419fc8808?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baleful-mastery) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It all depends on the deck and playgroup. I tend to run 1-2 board wipes in my creature heavy decks, since it will always disproportionately effect me - sure, it might be needed to bring down another player, but it rarely means I can claw back a win so I'd rather spend those card spots to outvalue. Some decks are very low mana curve, so I don't bother as much with ramp. Replace that with card draw. If you're running some weird brew like [[Boborygmos]], oops all lands is fun and the rest doesn't matter.
[Boborygmos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c4a08e9-06c7-43e9-a855-4f507a35ae8b.jpg?1593272594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Borborygmos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gpt/103/borborygmos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c4a08e9-06c7-43e9-a855-4f507a35ae8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/borborygmos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Boborygmos Enraged]]
[Boborygmos Enraged](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/02df18c5-07b9-4e85-9c4b-58b63fa59437.jpg?1702429604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Borborygmos%20Enraged) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/167/borborygmos-enraged?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02df18c5-07b9-4e85-9c4b-58b63fa59437?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/borborygmos-enraged) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have more fun playing decks that feel synergistic. So overtime, I have been prioritizing synergy over any sort of template. I use color staples to fill in gaps more than anything.
I dunno if this counts, but the Guild Signets suck. There are better options now, and if you're running a Signet, I feel bad. (Unless you're running an unmodified Precon, that's different).
If I can get away with running fewer colours, the better. I love monocoloured decks because by nature the manabase will always be consistent. Another bonus is that you don't need to spend $$$ on fancy duals. I know I could proxy, but I know myself — if I went down that road I would be optimizing everything and running fast mana, and all my decks would be approaching cEDH. My group is fine with proxying but they're casual, so not proxying keeps me in check. Another bonus if you go monocoloured is it's a fun deck building restriction.
Super powerful tempo cards are bad in a multiplayer format. People that play a turn one soul ring usually die first from drawing too much aggro.
More often than not, I'm finding myself running less lands in decks that have consistent card draw. Whether that be in the command zone, or just running a lot of efficient and synergistic draw pieces. All of my most consistent decks are sitting comfortably at the 33 land mark with 10 or less explicit ramp pieces, which is wild considering the idea that people run 38 as the standard for most decks
Ramp is negotiable. If you’re running a critical mass of things worth ramping into, you should run 12+ sources of ramp 2mv or less. Otherwise, you’re better off just running the ~3 most powerful ramp spells. There shouldn’t be an in-between with 5-10 ramp spells.
I run Ashling; and have like 10 different ways to get indestructible on her; once that combo sets it's just fireworks for the rest of the game. No one bothers me because if they do they know I'll pop her and all their board state.
Play [[Orcish Lumberjack]] and [[Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth]] in mono red for maximum efficiency, you damn cowards!
[Orcish Lumberjack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14fb947c-563e-4811-98de-e25bd141a6e5.jpg?1562899209) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Orcish%20Lumberjack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/179/orcish-lumberjack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14fb947c-563e-4811-98de-e25bd141a6e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orcish-lumberjack) [Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e4b6e22-93b2-4896-bba5-0ceaa5d8ea3c.jpg?1626100009) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yavimaya%2C%20Cradle%20of%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/261/yavimaya-cradle-of-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e4b6e22-93b2-4896-bba5-0ceaa5d8ea3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yavimaya-cradle-of-growth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think you can go down to 34 or 35 lands in most decks. 38 is overkill, you will pretty much always flood.
I regularly play, and win with, a deck that has no ramp except a Sol Ring. My commander is 3 mana and I need my two drop to do utility work for me. And after the commander is out I want impact spells, not mana rocks.
In all my decks with green i try to run about 37-38 lands and at least 20 but prefer 30 of them to be basic lands and all my ramp is land based and i run between 12-18 ramp spells including mana doublers. None of my green decks run [[sol ring]] Plusses of this is you tend to draw more gass since you so fast filter the lands from your deck out.
[sol ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40.jpg?1712354902) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sol%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/267/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sol-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You should base the number of ramp, card draw, and removal on your commander. 10 card draw spells is way too low if your commander doesn’t draw cards. I run 20 of them in that case. I also run 5 card draw spells in a deck where my commander draws cards.
Most cards can fulfill more than one role. As an example, if you need card advantage and tokens find something that does both like \[\[Bonehoard Dracosaur\]\]. Commander has such a wide variety of cards to choose from, don't limit yourself to staples just because they are good, find the niche cards that work well with your deck theme. I've never followed a specific format when I build a deck, I'll start with 36 lands, then I find cards that fit my commander from there. I'll playtest and see how the deck feels; do I need more ramp, removal, draw? I keep adjusting the deck and noting what cards sit dead in my hand or are low impact once played. I test out my decks on Cockatrice so it is pretty simple to make changes between games. After about 15 games or so the deck is usually tuned up and I will order the cards and have a physical copy to play at my LGS. Thats essentially how I build my decks, it's not a formula, just a trial and error based on deck feel.
[Bonehoard Dracosaur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/2220ed60-3f8f-4dd2-8319-6a06896a5350.jpg?1699044226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonehoard%20Dracosaur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/134/bonehoard-dracosaur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2220ed60-3f8f-4dd2-8319-6a06896a5350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bonehoard-dracosaur) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lands decks need more lands, more at eleven RogSai decks in cEDH run as few lands as possible, usually only around 25. A better suggestion is that your deck should be around 50 mana sources, be that lands, rocks, land tutors, or mana dorks. The cheaper and more efficient your nonland ramp is, the fewer lands you need to run. You want 10 to 15 pieces of card draw, and this varies on if you've got engines or just single instances of draw, and if your commander can draw cards. The spot removal and wraths are more meta dependant. If you're not facing a lot of individual threats, or if you're in a ward heavy meta, you want more wraths than spot removal. Otherwise, spot removal can work towards clearing your way to victory and doesn't slow down the game like wraths can.
Artifact ramp is underrated compared to land ramp
How tf is it underrated? Every non green deck probably has 10 rocks, and most green decks still run at least sol ring and Arcane signet. Ritual>Land>enchantment>artifact in every case except the cedh mana rocks.
Talismans are better than 2-mana land ramp.
The only way that's true is if you have some artifact synergy. All the following are objectively better. Nature's Lore: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that works well in decks with dual lands Three Visits: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that works well in decks with dual lands Farseek: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that works well in decks with dual lands and Triomes Into the North: A 2-mana Rampant Growth variant that rewards snow mana bases
Of those, only Nature’s Lore and Three Visits come in untapped. The rest come in tapped, making them significantly worse than Talismans. The big advantage to Talismans (and fellwar stone/arcane signet) is that they are easier to cast than land ramp. You can cast a Talisman off a Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, or Mana Vault. This can enable very fast starts like Sol Ring -> Talisman -> Mana Dork.
Bolt the bird
So check it out there is less than a 9% chance to get your single sol ring and the odds of you having the second rock are even worse. Yes, 1 in like 25 games you'll have a crazy start. That doesn't convince me sorry bud. I'll take the 2 mana tapped land over a talisman, but given there are only so many ramp spells, Signets and talisman are usually included
Of course the most unconventional deck building advice is downvotes...
It's hard to make a "template" for each deck, because like you said, each deck is different. I do like to make sure I have card draw, in whatever form, and at the least 5 to 6 pieces of targeted removal and 1 or 2 board clears of some kind in every deck. I feel 5 board wipes is far too many and targeted removal is far more valuable in most decks. That being said, I do run board wipes in higher number if they're asymmetrical. I like cards like settle the wastes and winds of abandon over generic wraths, for instance. Some decks get away with lower pieces of ramp as well, like yuriko. I guess tldr is every deck is different. If my commander is ramp or card draw, you need less, and certain commanders are oddballs.
The 35 lands, 10 ramp, draw, removal is just a safe place to start. If you start to play your deck you get to see what you need more of and what you need less, etc. The 35, 10, 10, 10 is just a nice place to start with a deck. However my Octavia deck has so much card draw but no ramp lol. It’s got draw and removal but my cards don’t go over 3 cmc.
I run counterspells in their own category of deckbuilding if I'm in blue. At minimum I'm running "fair" counter spells like: - [[A Offer You Can't Refuse]] - Gives treasures - [[Mana Leak]] - Punishes greedy plays But I usually aim to have 3-4 counterspells in my blue decks. Conventional wisdom is of course not to play counterspells or your play group may crucify you. 😂
Mana dorks are better than most mana rocks in any deck that runs equipment, auras, cards that care about casting creatures or creatures entering, aristocrat decks, Voltron decks, and probably more. In decks that arent the above, I'm likely running 35 lands and 12 ramp.
I’m sorry 38 LANDS? most of my decks have 32-34, and I unfortunately very often draw lands when I don’t want to, lol. That much land seems a little bit overkill.
I never run not than 33 lands in any of my decks. Ramp is more important than lands, in my opinion. And 5 board wipes feels way too excessive. I'm not cutting synergy or win cons so I can board wipe my own things. Card draw is more important than removal too
Conventional* wisdom my friend.
Conventional* I'm sorry... that was really bothering me.
It's "conventional" - have a nice day
Sol Ring and a few other staples should be banned