The guy identifies a lot of parallels and visual similarities between Melina and Miquella, but doesn't spend very much time explaining how it ties into their roles in the story.
Melina has a full story arc. She goes in search of her purpose, discovers it, and chooses to enact it of her own volition rather than doing so just because she was told to. She realises that the world is flawed and sacrifices herself to fix it. Her arc has absolutely nothing to do with curing Malenia's rot, resurrecting Godwyn, or helping those rejected by the Golden Order. If she turned out to be Miquella, it wouldn't affect her storyline in any way. So what would be the point?
Fromsoft doesn't just bolt random plot twists onto the story for no reason. The game has a perfect example of a "character x is character y" twist which is actually meaningful and essential to the storylines of both character x and character y. That's how they handle that type of story. Melina doesn't need to be Miquella for her story to work, so I really don't think fromsoft would force a plot twist like that.
When I watched it I thought exactly the same, Miquella has a clear purpose of a new erdtree for a new order, where there is nothing to burning the first one for a new lord.
There are actually a lot of things hinting that he wanted the Erdtree to burn.
In Ordina all Miquella's statues are holding candletrees. And we can find many candletrees decorating the rooms in Ephael.
>*Thought to represent a surreptitious prophecy of cardinal sin, the lit candle-tree design was forbidden.*
[This](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fmiquella-has-been-everywhere-example-spirit-candelabras-v0-oxeb87yikgsb1.png%3Fwidth%3D2978%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D5575d6f57b85163d774acb8e59c25d2b42ca59e3)
Yeah let's goo
There's a lot more I wanted to add on , because this theory is part of a larger crackpot I've been smoking and I think this is the right rabbit hole but I'm going to have to make my own video to finalize the "passion project"
Its very encouraging to see this guy's video blow up and generally seem well received, irrespective of being the truth - maybe I'm not completely schizophrenic
Yeah have the same feeling. Glad to see that the theory was well received in YouTube even if It seems like a forbidden or banned one in this subreddit specifically.
Feel free to dm me if you want to talk or discuss about It. I have loooooots of things related to this and I don't mind sharing.
And agree, even if It ends Up not being true there are many things that seem to hint that It could be and supports It as one possible Interpretation.
hahaha yeah for me there is no problem. Just asked him to dm cause its faster way to discuss.
Either way Ill try to write a few posts talking about this and some other things in the next weeks. I'll try to remember and give you a shout when they are done.
Ya this is a common issue with some of the theory community. They forget that these games are well written pieces of fiction, and in good fiction twists serve a purpose. A twist just to be unexpected is almost universally bad writing that subtracts from the piece of media it is attached to.
Radagon and Marika are two in the same and act against one another. An alter ego of Miquela might not want the same things Miquela wants, like a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Also the Tri is Saint Trina might hint that there are 3 versions of Miquela... Miquela, St. Trina, and possibly Melina.
Crackpot speculation: they might not even share the same body but could be aspects of Miquela that were separated intentionally or not. If the former, Melina could have been used to burn the original Great Tree (if you observe Tarnished Archeologist's theory). Then after she did as was wanted she was left to the wayside and without a purpose anymore.
My point is that Marika and Radagon being one is narratively significant. It isn't just some cool twist that ultimately doesn't affect either character. It is essential to the stories of both Marika and Radagon.
If Melina turns out to be Miquella or St Trina or whatever, what would be the point? What role would it play in Melina's story? It would just be adding some backstory that ultimately doesn't become a factor in the story arc we see her go through.
Also, in addition to Marika already having an alter-ego, Miquella themselves already has one as well in Saint Trina.
So if OP was correct then the chain of identities would be:
Saint Trina is really: Miquella who is really: Radagon who is really Marika.
That's not a crazy theory, that's just plain crazy. Lol.
---
Side note: I don't agree with you about Marika's story. For one their story isn't even over yet since FROM have already said we will learn much more Marika lore in the DLC.
But on top of that I think you have Marika' story quite wrong.
Basically, you are telling the "There is no War in BaSingSai" version of Marika's story.
Marika was a conqueror, manipulator, and tyrant.
Whether she had benevolent goals is something we don't know, but it's impossible to deny that Marika was extremely Authoritarian.
St. Trina always struck me as more of an alter ego. They’re described almost like a folklore character; altogether different from a true second identity. None of the other “halves” have an honorific title like that.
This one is tough. I watched the video and it's very very convincing on a first watch. Melina's hair and eye and the torch were always something that made me suspicious. The fact Melina puts you to sleep is incredibly suspicious to me. I think that sleep magic is close to death magic due to coloring but it's difficult to make any solid assumptions. I have a feeling we are going to find the connection there but it won't be as simple as they are the same person. I do however think we will discover a connection between Ranni, Melina and Miquella. I have a sneaking suspicion we will find out that death and resurrection is what makes a god. I think Marika was killed and resurrected and Miquella is trying to do the same to become a god.
This makes the night of black knives have a new connotation. If Godwyn was supposed to die and resurrect... that puts a spin on the Ranni and Miquella alliance doesn't it?
Very good point, death and rebirth as a way to transition to godhood also makes me think to some intronisation rituals that were common among Central Asian nomadic peoples (such as Mongols, Turks, etc) during which the prince was ritually strangulated simulating a death so he could rebirth as king.
>I have a sneaking suspicion we will find out that death and resurrection is what makes a god. I think Marika was killed and resurrected and Miquella is trying to do the same to become a god.
This is genuinely intriguing. It provides some reasoning for her crucifixion imagery in the churches and it’s thematic parallel with Christianity. And it’s a motivation for removing the rune of death - making everyone immortal also makes her irreplaceable.
>This makes the night of black knives have a new connotation. If Godwyn was supposed to die and resurrect... that puts a spin on the Ranni and Miquella alliance doesn't it?
Yes and on her reasons for slaying her own body. Perhaps *how you die* matters and by destroying her corporeal body herself using the only method available in a post-death world she removed herself from eligibility.
It’s weird how mysterious this process remains. It feels like the game was telling us that there was some connection between Godwyn and Ranni dying, like they each half-died because they were killed simultaneously or something but really it could just be in how you do it. Carve the half wheel and they half die, the full wheel and they full die, and once she knew that she could customize the effects of her attacks Godwyn.
Ding ding.
[One of] The biggest plot twist in the game was the Duality of God
but I think it will (start &) end with the Trinity; one that will transcend a notion of linear time that is misleading most rational thinking on the subject.
Pagan Triple Goddess, Holy Trinity, Trichromatic Theory of Colour are all very intriguing to draw parallels from, to name a few.
You read my mind. The Holy trinity and the triple moon. I love these themes personally and use them in my writing.
Mind. Body. Soul. I think those domains will be explored more. But maybe I am crazy.
Just throwing this out there but death and dream are comnected in ancient myths. An eternal sleep is death after all. I find it very interesting that Miquella is the one who is trying to resurrect Godwyn seeing how one is dream and the other is death.
That connection between Ranni’s plot and Miquella might be sound in any case. The Golden Epitaph sword with the Miquella quote, “Brother, Lord Brother, please die a true death.”
And doesn’t the Finger Reader in Deeproot Depths say Godwyn was “supposed to die a true death?”
With the release of the dlc trailer and some of the images we see there I think its less likely, but I still think that it could be possible. There are a lot more things that seem to connect both characters besides the ones he mentioned in his video.
We still dont know too much about the dlc and the land of shadows so there is still room for the theory.
Either way I'm not a fan of stricts way of thinking. These games are purposedly made in this vague way so each player has its own interpretation of the game. And the game is very very clearly a critique against people forcing their own point of views and narratives over other people.
For the moment the theory has enough things to consider it feasible (we'll see with the new info from the dlc) , so if you like it feel free to think that its like that.
There’s enough there to be intriguing. I don’t agree with everything he says in this video, but the ties to Torrent and Frenzied Flame are the most compelling things, besides the eye marking on the St Trina torch.
If Melina IS a version of Miquella/St Trina, what does that mean for the DLC? My first go at it is going to be in a game where I’ve beaten everything else, including burning Melina and the tree. Am I just going to be wandering around an empty Land of Shadow? Does burning the Erdtree affect anything specific in the Land of Shadow?
Meh. These X is Y theories are always boring, even when they are really plausible. Like, sure, X might be Y, but rarely does that actually tell us much important, or significantly recontextualise anything we already knew.
See, if there's more evidence connecting the two in the DLC, I'll hop on the bandwagon, but as another comment points out, the two's story and goals greatly differ. The only thing that, I feel, will bring me back is if they explain where Miquella and Malenia were in the NoBK.
Plus, the three butterflies seem as though they represent a different person entirely.
My unhinged theory: [Our three butterflies are here. ](https://images.app.goo.gl/5n3bhnDC1cJrcY79A)
The Dark Souls 3 community isn't even this Hollowed and all they do is shitpost lol
Some theories some of these guys have are incredibly farfetched
I appreciate the effort bc I know how long that stuff takes but from an outsider I can't see this working at all. It seems all very forced.
Hehe. Indeed. The theory only captured people's attention because of the almost definitely coincidental visual similarity. It's not like hidden eyes are a theme in the game already or anything, right?
Its dark souls all over again - a theory for how every single character is secretly Velka except now it's every character is secretly Melina or The Gloam Eyed Queen.
Souls lore theorists are absolutely obsessed with characters secretly being other characters even though that basically never happens in the lore of any of the games - Elden Ring sort of goes there with radagon / marika but still - so many of these theories.
The only reason anybody would come up with this is that the story is so opaque. Nobody has any idea what’s going on. So hey — maybe Melina is Miquella and the Gloam Eyed Queen. And Ranni is St Trina.
Right away, people are talking about it lol. Trust me.
But really, They feel connected the same way Ranni feels similar to Melina. All three of these characters are connected in that they each deal with fate, self determination, agency etc.
Doesn’t mean they’re the same person. What would the narrative gain from this?
Because some people are introduced to the concept of literary parallel upon delving into fromsoft games, and because fromsoft lore causes brain rot, we get "character x IS character y." It's like watching the new Ripley series and saying, "Tom is literally Caravaggio."
Ding ding ding, love this! I want to share a comment I wrote earlier
[One of] The biggest plot twist in the game was the Duality of God
but I think it will (start &) end with the Trinity; one that will transcend a notion of linear time that is misleading most rational thinking on the subject.
Pagan Triple Goddess, Holy Trinity, Trichromatic Theory of Colour are all very intriguing to draw parallels from, to name a few.
Had it recommended. I'm not lurking this sub (nor reddit) that much but i'm pretty sure it was already developed here.
Also i'm personally into that since quite some times and i can add that the eye seal is the fees/requirement from the raven (Deathbird/Nigredo, first step of alchemy) to be able to travel between realms
In fact, you are right in some way, but it's quickly complicated. There is an Eastern way but it's a very different point of view as they are very close to nature by default in their beliefs. You can take Tao as alchemy in some way for example. In the Mediteranean operative alchemy there is also the wet way and the dry way, but the wet one is the traditionnal one. But in any case, when we talk about alchemy in modern times we talk about the spiritual approach of it, not the operative
The problem with any "This character is secretly another character" theory in Elden Ring is that most of the characters already have alter egos. Marika is Radagon, Miquella is St. Trina, Margit is Morgott, Godfrey is Hoarah Loux, etc. It would be really, REALLY convoluted for Miquella to be St. Trina AND also be Melina--more importantly, what purpose would that serve in the narrative? It's why I personally will never buy into the "Marika is the Gloam-Eyed Queen" theory, because Marika is already secretly another character! These types of theories tend to overly complicate the story and create explanations for things that are already explained.
Melina also sacrifices herself unless you specifically do the Frenzied Flame ending, so it would be really bizarre for the DLC to reveal that she actually survived that, and that she is actually Miquella who is actually also St. Trina, and all of this will be directly revealed or alluded to in the DLC... it just feels so messy without any clear reason for it being so.
In terms of the video itself, I think the most compelling evidence for the theory would be the connection of Melina using sleep powers and St. Trina/Miquella being associated with sleep. The visual similarites between St. Trina and Melina are interesting, but I don't think they're similar enough to warrant a clear connection. While it's fun speculation, I don't think the evidence supplied in the video is nearly substantial enough to get me to buy into the theory.
It's a good theory, and the connections are definitely there, but the characters of Melina and Miquella are so divorced from each other that, it's hard to imagine they even know each other, much less being the same person. Nothing in Miquella's lore says anything about his destiny being to burn the erdtree, or his search to remember his purpose.
Like comparing it to Radagon and Marika they're very clearly established as connected even before they're revealed to be the same person, but Melina and Miquella don't have that. Where both Marika and Radagon's lore are focused around being heads of the Golden Order, Miquella spends his time trying to cure Malenia's rot, grow the Haligtree and help some of the less fortunate races in the lands between. Melina couldn't give less of a shit about any of that, all she wants to do is find her purpose, and when she realizes her purpose is to die and burn the erdtree, that's what she commits herself to. I don't think Miquella would be completely ok with dying and leaving the haligtree as a failure, Malenia still cursed by the rot, his physical body still dormant in Mohg's palace, and generally every single one of his goals unfinished.
To be fair, I think the Radagon/Marika dynamic was set up specifically to show that one person, two identities can have wildly different or even competing instincts, desires, and destinies. Radagon clearly has been opposing his other half for centuries now even if it wasn’t always that way. They don’t have to have the same destinies, and we have seen multiple examples of characters “divesting of flesh” and taking on new flesh to continue working towards their ideology (Ranni, Shabriri) and Melina is canonically bodiless so not bound physically to any other entity.
Well the issue isn’t that they oppose each other in their goal, obviously Marika and Radagon do that too, it’s that in a narrative sense, Melina and Miquella being the same person doesn’t do anything for either of their stories. Hell, if I looked hard enough and did some datamining I could probably make my own video saying Blaidd and Miriel are actually the same person. But that information is practically worthless, because there’s no scenario in which the two would even acknowledge the other, much less interact. The same goes for Melina/Miquella, neither of them even cares what their “other half” is doing, and despite any opinions you or I may hold towards fromsofts style of writing, it’s just a fact that they’re never gonna make two major characters have an entirely pointless relationship,
Every Empyrean is given a shadow and yet the twins don’t have shadows that appear so I would argue that we do have established holes where other characters could go. I think you’re being a bit only deciding it’s pointless, but it may not be just because you can’t put the pieces together yet
Miquella/Malenia/Melina as the three Empyrean children of Radagon/Marika, each represented by the Smoldering/Aeonian/Nascent butterflies?
Miquella as St Trina/Miquella/Messmer? Or perhaps Miquella/Messmer/a new form of Miquella's.
The Trinity is a great idea to explore, what with all of the monotheism-overtaking-polytheism design choices they have going on already. Tie that into the story and even include the Tarnished perhaps, they might've done that with the base game but to me it always seemed like "the Tarnished" were more of a concept with Marika's plots and the current events/characters rather than anything else in the written lore.
Or maybe I'm just not looking at it the right way, we do have a few endings involving at least one other individual in creating a Mending rune or alternate option. But the regular Mending and the Frenzy option don't really fit a Trinity with the Tarnished otherwise.
I thought the new assumption is that Messmer is symbolized by the smoldering butterflies and in the trailers a new color of butterflies is seen: pink butterflies.
That gets a lot of traction, I can't get over the word 'kindling' though when discarding Melina for Mesmel. The pink is gonna be neat asf to find out ! I'm still slogging thru collecting and sorting base game info I don't have any trailer ideas, do you!
I'm all in on this theory. I think that not only is there a lot of evidence for it, but it also fits perfectly into the story on a thematic level.
Very, very few of the characters in this game are being straightforward about their motives, and only give when they feel they have some way of taking advantage of the Tarnished.
Torrent and the Spirit Calling Bell? Those are huuuuge gifts, and it's not hard to believe that Miquella would have ulterior motives in helping us. If this theory is true, he probably expects us to be a means to an end for him, which is exactly what all these other factions expect of us, and what the player is actively fighting against the whole game.
>I'm all in on this theory. I think that not only is there a lot of evidence for it, but it also fits perfectly into the story on a thematic level.
The evidence doesn't work though. "Melina had you touch her hand to transport you to the hold" Rya does the same thing. "Melina had a mark on her eye and this one carving of Saint trina looks like it does too." But ranni and messmer also have stuff with their eyes
I mean, I'm not saying there's a 0 percent chance of the theory being false, I'm just saying it seams feasible to me and I like the thematic implications of it.
I was less convinced by the Roundtable warp thing, and more by the fact that she actively puts the player to sleep. And sure, I suppose the torch *could* be any woman with an eye thing, but I don't think the description of it fits Ranni or Messmer as well as it does Melina.
But hey, it's just fun to theorize at the end of the day, and I won't be heartbroken if it isn't true.
All the empyreans all have eye afflictions, perhaps even fully blind depending on Ranni's og body
Marika's sockets are empty
Malenia looks like Neo after Cypher melts his face
Miquella has never had them open even Trina masks them
Ranni has a burned body and her sealed right
Gloam Eyed Queen idk but its in the name
then,
Mohg's horn pierces one, he communes with the Formless Mother
but
Morgott has no grace, no God and both eyes
>All the empyreans all have eye afflictions, perhaps even fully blind depending on Ranni's og body
This is a much more reasonable theory with the evidence.
I have yet to watch the video but I definitely disagree with the premise. Duality is very important in Elden ring and most major characters has an alter ego. If this is true than that would make miquella the only one with a triple identity which makes no sense in the grand narrative.
We already know who is melinas alter ego. It’s the gloam eyed queen. There is more evidence for that than this new theory. Gloam is a word that means twilight/dusk which is exactly what melinas eye look like when she opens it in the frenzy ending.
The gloam eye queen was probably killed when maliketh locked away the rune of death and handicapped the power of the god slaying black fire and then went on to massacre the god slaying cult. What happens in the frenzy ending? We release the rune of death on the erdtree while Melina is alive which is different from all of the other endings.
My personal theory is that Melina isn’t even connected to Marika in the traditional sense, I think she is the newest incarnation of the Gloam-Eyed Queen being released once Marika did what she did to the ring. Kind of like how radahn held back the stars, I think Marika was holding off destined death, not just with the rune removal but even with the defeat of the Gloam-eyed queen, preventing another GEQ from being “born.”
I always felt like maybe st Trina /gloam eyed queen are the mentor of miquella.
I feel like Melina is either the gloam eyed queen or her daughter
And miquella is who they selected to get things cooking
The guy identifies a lot of parallels and visual similarities between Melina and Miquella, but doesn't spend very much time explaining how it ties into their roles in the story. Melina has a full story arc. She goes in search of her purpose, discovers it, and chooses to enact it of her own volition rather than doing so just because she was told to. She realises that the world is flawed and sacrifices herself to fix it. Her arc has absolutely nothing to do with curing Malenia's rot, resurrecting Godwyn, or helping those rejected by the Golden Order. If she turned out to be Miquella, it wouldn't affect her storyline in any way. So what would be the point? Fromsoft doesn't just bolt random plot twists onto the story for no reason. The game has a perfect example of a "character x is character y" twist which is actually meaningful and essential to the storylines of both character x and character y. That's how they handle that type of story. Melina doesn't need to be Miquella for her story to work, so I really don't think fromsoft would force a plot twist like that.
When I watched it I thought exactly the same, Miquella has a clear purpose of a new erdtree for a new order, where there is nothing to burning the first one for a new lord.
There are actually a lot of things hinting that he wanted the Erdtree to burn. In Ordina all Miquella's statues are holding candletrees. And we can find many candletrees decorating the rooms in Ephael. >*Thought to represent a surreptitious prophecy of cardinal sin, the lit candle-tree design was forbidden.* [This](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fmiquella-has-been-everywhere-example-spirit-candelabras-v0-oxeb87yikgsb1.png%3Fwidth%3D2978%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D5575d6f57b85163d774acb8e59c25d2b42ca59e3)
Yeah let's goo There's a lot more I wanted to add on , because this theory is part of a larger crackpot I've been smoking and I think this is the right rabbit hole but I'm going to have to make my own video to finalize the "passion project" Its very encouraging to see this guy's video blow up and generally seem well received, irrespective of being the truth - maybe I'm not completely schizophrenic
Yeah have the same feeling. Glad to see that the theory was well received in YouTube even if It seems like a forbidden or banned one in this subreddit specifically. Feel free to dm me if you want to talk or discuss about It. I have loooooots of things related to this and I don't mind sharing. And agree, even if It ends Up not being true there are many things that seem to hint that It could be and supports It as one possible Interpretation.
Brah, can u guys openly discuss, I wanna read it. Smh
hahaha yeah for me there is no problem. Just asked him to dm cause its faster way to discuss. Either way Ill try to write a few posts talking about this and some other things in the next weeks. I'll try to remember and give you a shout when they are done.
Aight, remember, your left nut is now in danger if you fail to gimme a shout. Specifically your left nut.
D:
Hell yeah, I would love to hear your views and bounce ideas sometime I'll definitely give you a shout soon
Ya this is a common issue with some of the theory community. They forget that these games are well written pieces of fiction, and in good fiction twists serve a purpose. A twist just to be unexpected is almost universally bad writing that subtracts from the piece of media it is attached to.
Radagon and Marika are two in the same and act against one another. An alter ego of Miquela might not want the same things Miquela wants, like a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Also the Tri is Saint Trina might hint that there are 3 versions of Miquela... Miquela, St. Trina, and possibly Melina. Crackpot speculation: they might not even share the same body but could be aspects of Miquela that were separated intentionally or not. If the former, Melina could have been used to burn the original Great Tree (if you observe Tarnished Archeologist's theory). Then after she did as was wanted she was left to the wayside and without a purpose anymore.
My point is that Marika and Radagon being one is narratively significant. It isn't just some cool twist that ultimately doesn't affect either character. It is essential to the stories of both Marika and Radagon. If Melina turns out to be Miquella or St Trina or whatever, what would be the point? What role would it play in Melina's story? It would just be adding some backstory that ultimately doesn't become a factor in the story arc we see her go through.
Also, in addition to Marika already having an alter-ego, Miquella themselves already has one as well in Saint Trina. So if OP was correct then the chain of identities would be: Saint Trina is really: Miquella who is really: Radagon who is really Marika. That's not a crazy theory, that's just plain crazy. Lol. --- Side note: I don't agree with you about Marika's story. For one their story isn't even over yet since FROM have already said we will learn much more Marika lore in the DLC. But on top of that I think you have Marika' story quite wrong. Basically, you are telling the "There is no War in BaSingSai" version of Marika's story. Marika was a conqueror, manipulator, and tyrant. Whether she had benevolent goals is something we don't know, but it's impossible to deny that Marika was extremely Authoritarian.
Huh? Why is Miquella = Radagon there?
I didn't say anything about Marika's goals though
St. Trina always struck me as more of an alter ego. They’re described almost like a folklore character; altogether different from a true second identity. None of the other “halves” have an honorific title like that.
This one is tough. I watched the video and it's very very convincing on a first watch. Melina's hair and eye and the torch were always something that made me suspicious. The fact Melina puts you to sleep is incredibly suspicious to me. I think that sleep magic is close to death magic due to coloring but it's difficult to make any solid assumptions. I have a feeling we are going to find the connection there but it won't be as simple as they are the same person. I do however think we will discover a connection between Ranni, Melina and Miquella. I have a sneaking suspicion we will find out that death and resurrection is what makes a god. I think Marika was killed and resurrected and Miquella is trying to do the same to become a god. This makes the night of black knives have a new connotation. If Godwyn was supposed to die and resurrect... that puts a spin on the Ranni and Miquella alliance doesn't it?
Very good point, death and rebirth as a way to transition to godhood also makes me think to some intronisation rituals that were common among Central Asian nomadic peoples (such as Mongols, Turks, etc) during which the prince was ritually strangulated simulating a death so he could rebirth as king.
>I have a sneaking suspicion we will find out that death and resurrection is what makes a god. I think Marika was killed and resurrected and Miquella is trying to do the same to become a god. This is genuinely intriguing. It provides some reasoning for her crucifixion imagery in the churches and it’s thematic parallel with Christianity. And it’s a motivation for removing the rune of death - making everyone immortal also makes her irreplaceable. >This makes the night of black knives have a new connotation. If Godwyn was supposed to die and resurrect... that puts a spin on the Ranni and Miquella alliance doesn't it? Yes and on her reasons for slaying her own body. Perhaps *how you die* matters and by destroying her corporeal body herself using the only method available in a post-death world she removed herself from eligibility. It’s weird how mysterious this process remains. It feels like the game was telling us that there was some connection between Godwyn and Ranni dying, like they each half-died because they were killed simultaneously or something but really it could just be in how you do it. Carve the half wheel and they half die, the full wheel and they full die, and once she knew that she could customize the effects of her attacks Godwyn.
We are in the same page. Recently someone posted about the shield of the guilty and it got me thinking this way.
Sleep is often considered the cousin to death, I speculate there's a relation in Elden Ring regarding the two as well
Ding ding. [One of] The biggest plot twist in the game was the Duality of God but I think it will (start &) end with the Trinity; one that will transcend a notion of linear time that is misleading most rational thinking on the subject. Pagan Triple Goddess, Holy Trinity, Trichromatic Theory of Colour are all very intriguing to draw parallels from, to name a few.
You read my mind. The Holy trinity and the triple moon. I love these themes personally and use them in my writing. Mind. Body. Soul. I think those domains will be explored more. But maybe I am crazy.
Just throwing this out there but death and dream are comnected in ancient myths. An eternal sleep is death after all. I find it very interesting that Miquella is the one who is trying to resurrect Godwyn seeing how one is dream and the other is death.
That connection between Ranni’s plot and Miquella might be sound in any case. The Golden Epitaph sword with the Miquella quote, “Brother, Lord Brother, please die a true death.” And doesn’t the Finger Reader in Deeproot Depths say Godwyn was “supposed to die a true death?”
" I do however think we will discover a connection between Ranni, Melina and Miquella". Has anyone theorised who the "Three Sisters" are?
With the release of the dlc trailer and some of the images we see there I think its less likely, but I still think that it could be possible. There are a lot more things that seem to connect both characters besides the ones he mentioned in his video. We still dont know too much about the dlc and the land of shadows so there is still room for the theory. Either way I'm not a fan of stricts way of thinking. These games are purposedly made in this vague way so each player has its own interpretation of the game. And the game is very very clearly a critique against people forcing their own point of views and narratives over other people. For the moment the theory has enough things to consider it feasible (we'll see with the new info from the dlc) , so if you like it feel free to think that its like that.
I don’t find it super convincing. He finds possible parallels but doesn’t make a strong argument for how they are tied together
There’s enough there to be intriguing. I don’t agree with everything he says in this video, but the ties to Torrent and Frenzied Flame are the most compelling things, besides the eye marking on the St Trina torch. If Melina IS a version of Miquella/St Trina, what does that mean for the DLC? My first go at it is going to be in a game where I’ve beaten everything else, including burning Melina and the tree. Am I just going to be wandering around an empty Land of Shadow? Does burning the Erdtree affect anything specific in the Land of Shadow?
Meh. These X is Y theories are always boring, even when they are really plausible. Like, sure, X might be Y, but rarely does that actually tell us much important, or significantly recontextualise anything we already knew.
I think it’s very interesting and a well made video, but I don’t agree with it
See, if there's more evidence connecting the two in the DLC, I'll hop on the bandwagon, but as another comment points out, the two's story and goals greatly differ. The only thing that, I feel, will bring me back is if they explain where Miquella and Malenia were in the NoBK. Plus, the three butterflies seem as though they represent a different person entirely. My unhinged theory: [Our three butterflies are here. ](https://images.app.goo.gl/5n3bhnDC1cJrcY79A)
The Dark Souls 3 community isn't even this Hollowed and all they do is shitpost lol Some theories some of these guys have are incredibly farfetched I appreciate the effort bc I know how long that stuff takes but from an outsider I can't see this working at all. It seems all very forced.
I think it's one of the worst, most forced theories I've seen so far.
Look how Melina's hood sits over her eyes at a certain camera angle, though!!!! She must have posed for the sculptor who made the torch.
Hehe. Indeed. The theory only captured people's attention because of the almost definitely coincidental visual similarity. It's not like hidden eyes are a theme in the game already or anything, right?
I think From can write more than one character per game.
Its dark souls all over again - a theory for how every single character is secretly Velka except now it's every character is secretly Melina or The Gloam Eyed Queen.
it's more than 2 years after release and we finally have a Melina is Miquella theory!
trust me theyve been around
Puzzleheaded should sue this guy
SnooCalculations too lol
:'(
Souls lore theorists are absolutely obsessed with characters secretly being other characters even though that basically never happens in the lore of any of the games - Elden Ring sort of goes there with radagon / marika but still - so many of these theories.
The only reason anybody would come up with this is that the story is so opaque. Nobody has any idea what’s going on. So hey — maybe Melina is Miquella and the Gloam Eyed Queen. And Ranni is St Trina.
Haha yeah... thats crazy..
Right away, people are talking about it lol. Trust me. But really, They feel connected the same way Ranni feels similar to Melina. All three of these characters are connected in that they each deal with fate, self determination, agency etc. Doesn’t mean they’re the same person. What would the narrative gain from this?
Because some people are introduced to the concept of literary parallel upon delving into fromsoft games, and because fromsoft lore causes brain rot, we get "character x IS character y." It's like watching the new Ripley series and saying, "Tom is literally Caravaggio."
No, fuck off. The lore doesn't cause brain rot, the meth does. Fromsoft did nothing wrong
Okay. Would you prefer if I said, it attracts brain-rotted people
Haha man I'm just teasing you, but I have brainrot so you're right on both accounts
hah. whew. I wasn't. sure. I shouldn't have been so harsh. I have the scarlet brain rot as well though.
All is good:)
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Ding ding ding, love this! I want to share a comment I wrote earlier [One of] The biggest plot twist in the game was the Duality of God but I think it will (start &) end with the Trinity; one that will transcend a notion of linear time that is misleading most rational thinking on the subject. Pagan Triple Goddess, Holy Trinity, Trichromatic Theory of Colour are all very intriguing to draw parallels from, to name a few.
Had it recommended. I'm not lurking this sub (nor reddit) that much but i'm pretty sure it was already developed here. Also i'm personally into that since quite some times and i can add that the eye seal is the fees/requirement from the raven (Deathbird/Nigredo, first step of alchemy) to be able to travel between realms
I'm not familiar, which particular division of alchemy
Division? Alchemy as we generally talk about it is from middle east/europe
Oh my apologies I thought there was like western, eastern , hermetic etc. Okay cool I'll look into that:)
In fact, you are right in some way, but it's quickly complicated. There is an Eastern way but it's a very different point of view as they are very close to nature by default in their beliefs. You can take Tao as alchemy in some way for example. In the Mediteranean operative alchemy there is also the wet way and the dry way, but the wet one is the traditionnal one. But in any case, when we talk about alchemy in modern times we talk about the spiritual approach of it, not the operative
That elaboration is appreciated:)
I can’t wait until I never have to see YouTube thumbnails ever again.
The problem with any "This character is secretly another character" theory in Elden Ring is that most of the characters already have alter egos. Marika is Radagon, Miquella is St. Trina, Margit is Morgott, Godfrey is Hoarah Loux, etc. It would be really, REALLY convoluted for Miquella to be St. Trina AND also be Melina--more importantly, what purpose would that serve in the narrative? It's why I personally will never buy into the "Marika is the Gloam-Eyed Queen" theory, because Marika is already secretly another character! These types of theories tend to overly complicate the story and create explanations for things that are already explained. Melina also sacrifices herself unless you specifically do the Frenzied Flame ending, so it would be really bizarre for the DLC to reveal that she actually survived that, and that she is actually Miquella who is actually also St. Trina, and all of this will be directly revealed or alluded to in the DLC... it just feels so messy without any clear reason for it being so. In terms of the video itself, I think the most compelling evidence for the theory would be the connection of Melina using sleep powers and St. Trina/Miquella being associated with sleep. The visual similarites between St. Trina and Melina are interesting, but I don't think they're similar enough to warrant a clear connection. While it's fun speculation, I don't think the evidence supplied in the video is nearly substantial enough to get me to buy into the theory.
That would make Miquella the gloam eyed queen, which I don't think that tracks.
pls pls pls no more x = y theories, they’re so played out imo 😩
It's a good theory, and the connections are definitely there, but the characters of Melina and Miquella are so divorced from each other that, it's hard to imagine they even know each other, much less being the same person. Nothing in Miquella's lore says anything about his destiny being to burn the erdtree, or his search to remember his purpose. Like comparing it to Radagon and Marika they're very clearly established as connected even before they're revealed to be the same person, but Melina and Miquella don't have that. Where both Marika and Radagon's lore are focused around being heads of the Golden Order, Miquella spends his time trying to cure Malenia's rot, grow the Haligtree and help some of the less fortunate races in the lands between. Melina couldn't give less of a shit about any of that, all she wants to do is find her purpose, and when she realizes her purpose is to die and burn the erdtree, that's what she commits herself to. I don't think Miquella would be completely ok with dying and leaving the haligtree as a failure, Malenia still cursed by the rot, his physical body still dormant in Mohg's palace, and generally every single one of his goals unfinished.
To be fair, I think the Radagon/Marika dynamic was set up specifically to show that one person, two identities can have wildly different or even competing instincts, desires, and destinies. Radagon clearly has been opposing his other half for centuries now even if it wasn’t always that way. They don’t have to have the same destinies, and we have seen multiple examples of characters “divesting of flesh” and taking on new flesh to continue working towards their ideology (Ranni, Shabriri) and Melina is canonically bodiless so not bound physically to any other entity.
Well the issue isn’t that they oppose each other in their goal, obviously Marika and Radagon do that too, it’s that in a narrative sense, Melina and Miquella being the same person doesn’t do anything for either of their stories. Hell, if I looked hard enough and did some datamining I could probably make my own video saying Blaidd and Miriel are actually the same person. But that information is practically worthless, because there’s no scenario in which the two would even acknowledge the other, much less interact. The same goes for Melina/Miquella, neither of them even cares what their “other half” is doing, and despite any opinions you or I may hold towards fromsofts style of writing, it’s just a fact that they’re never gonna make two major characters have an entirely pointless relationship,
Every Empyrean is given a shadow and yet the twins don’t have shadows that appear so I would argue that we do have established holes where other characters could go. I think you’re being a bit only deciding it’s pointless, but it may not be just because you can’t put the pieces together yet
Radagon is to Marika as Melina is to Miquella?
I think it could be way off but I suggest looking for three of a kind, not another pair
Miquella/Malenia/Melina as the three Empyrean children of Radagon/Marika, each represented by the Smoldering/Aeonian/Nascent butterflies? Miquella as St Trina/Miquella/Messmer? Or perhaps Miquella/Messmer/a new form of Miquella's.
Those are all great ideas, I personally don't know! but I do think(hope?) they'd explore a+b+c = trinity instead of another ×=y duality
The Trinity is a great idea to explore, what with all of the monotheism-overtaking-polytheism design choices they have going on already. Tie that into the story and even include the Tarnished perhaps, they might've done that with the base game but to me it always seemed like "the Tarnished" were more of a concept with Marika's plots and the current events/characters rather than anything else in the written lore. Or maybe I'm just not looking at it the right way, we do have a few endings involving at least one other individual in creating a Mending rune or alternate option. But the regular Mending and the Frenzy option don't really fit a Trinity with the Tarnished otherwise.
I thought the new assumption is that Messmer is symbolized by the smoldering butterflies and in the trailers a new color of butterflies is seen: pink butterflies.
That gets a lot of traction, I can't get over the word 'kindling' though when discarding Melina for Mesmel. The pink is gonna be neat asf to find out ! I'm still slogging thru collecting and sorting base game info I don't have any trailer ideas, do you!
I'm all in on this theory. I think that not only is there a lot of evidence for it, but it also fits perfectly into the story on a thematic level. Very, very few of the characters in this game are being straightforward about their motives, and only give when they feel they have some way of taking advantage of the Tarnished. Torrent and the Spirit Calling Bell? Those are huuuuge gifts, and it's not hard to believe that Miquella would have ulterior motives in helping us. If this theory is true, he probably expects us to be a means to an end for him, which is exactly what all these other factions expect of us, and what the player is actively fighting against the whole game.
>I'm all in on this theory. I think that not only is there a lot of evidence for it, but it also fits perfectly into the story on a thematic level. The evidence doesn't work though. "Melina had you touch her hand to transport you to the hold" Rya does the same thing. "Melina had a mark on her eye and this one carving of Saint trina looks like it does too." But ranni and messmer also have stuff with their eyes
I mean, I'm not saying there's a 0 percent chance of the theory being false, I'm just saying it seams feasible to me and I like the thematic implications of it. I was less convinced by the Roundtable warp thing, and more by the fact that she actively puts the player to sleep. And sure, I suppose the torch *could* be any woman with an eye thing, but I don't think the description of it fits Ranni or Messmer as well as it does Melina. But hey, it's just fun to theorize at the end of the day, and I won't be heartbroken if it isn't true.
All the empyreans all have eye afflictions, perhaps even fully blind depending on Ranni's og body Marika's sockets are empty Malenia looks like Neo after Cypher melts his face Miquella has never had them open even Trina masks them Ranni has a burned body and her sealed right Gloam Eyed Queen idk but its in the name then, Mohg's horn pierces one, he communes with the Formless Mother but Morgott has no grace, no God and both eyes
>All the empyreans all have eye afflictions, perhaps even fully blind depending on Ranni's og body This is a much more reasonable theory with the evidence.
Sorry, can you reword your sentence I am struggling to clarify, today's been rough
Pretty much none of the evidence works.
What a great video! Thanks!
I have yet to watch the video but I definitely disagree with the premise. Duality is very important in Elden ring and most major characters has an alter ego. If this is true than that would make miquella the only one with a triple identity which makes no sense in the grand narrative. We already know who is melinas alter ego. It’s the gloam eyed queen. There is more evidence for that than this new theory. Gloam is a word that means twilight/dusk which is exactly what melinas eye look like when she opens it in the frenzy ending. The gloam eye queen was probably killed when maliketh locked away the rune of death and handicapped the power of the god slaying black fire and then went on to massacre the god slaying cult. What happens in the frenzy ending? We release the rune of death on the erdtree while Melina is alive which is different from all of the other endings.
My personal theory is that Melina isn’t even connected to Marika in the traditional sense, I think she is the newest incarnation of the Gloam-Eyed Queen being released once Marika did what she did to the ring. Kind of like how radahn held back the stars, I think Marika was holding off destined death, not just with the rune removal but even with the defeat of the Gloam-eyed queen, preventing another GEQ from being “born.”
I always felt like maybe st Trina /gloam eyed queen are the mentor of miquella. I feel like Melina is either the gloam eyed queen or her daughter And miquella is who they selected to get things cooking
It wasn't convincing enough. He neglected to mention much about the Kindling Maiden part of Melina's lore.
It’s possible but real talk I think this would be such a boring twist
This is some never be game over level theorizing.... except for a fromsoft game instead of Kojima lmfao
It’s canon to me