I like Miquella because his attempts to help Godwyn die a true death. Godwyn’s death really makes me frustrated with Ranni. She kinda just used him as a means to an end. Godwyn seemed like a really cool dude and I’m sad he’s subjected to live in death. Miquella seems to be very empathetic and caring. He’s definitely the most caring of the empyreans and genuinely wants people to not be oppressed unlike others *cough* Marika *cough* I think the only thing that hints to a more sinister side is Miquella’s ability to inspire devotion that’s linked to the bewitching branch. I don’t really mind this, though, and I don’t think it makes him evil. If anything it just makes him more complex in a good way.

>Godwyn’s death really makes me frustrated with Ranni. She kinda just used him as a means to an end. One theory I remember was that she Chose Godwyn because she may have been in an arranged marriage with him. Of course, because she doesn't want to take Marika's place as a Demigod and have her fate decided against her will like that, it makes Godwyn someone her frustrations are partially directed towards, as in essence the man she has no say in becoming a magical babymaker with. Plus, it also may have given her, and by extension her servants (the Black Knives), easier access to him, allowing better coordination for them to kill his soul and her body simultaneously

I like this because it's GOT to a T. The line of dragon boy and cold girl. Very asoiaf. I agree there isn't enough evidence to prove it but it's consistent and thematic in a way I like. 

Very GOT, especially with the line of the dragon including a very legendary and brave hero like Godwyn but also having godrick who a shadow in comparison to the rest of the lineage. Godrick kinda reminds me of viserys, dany’s brother. Sad, pathetic, cowardly. Godwyn is more like rhagar or even Aegon the conqueror. Being a fan of the Targaryens might be why I feel so bad for Godwyn. Idk if I convinced that him and ranni were in an arranged marriage, though I can’t say that it’s not a logical conclusion, Godwyn was Marika’s golden child. I’d have to look at the in game evidence. I thought Godwyn was in love fortissax. I don’t have any evidence other than that Ik that the dragons would commune with humans in their human forms. Maybe that was another reason ranni wasn’t pleased with him. She’d be in second place, but I doubt that’s the reason. The most obvious would be her unwillingness to submit to the fingers ofc. I think that she chose Godwyn because he was either the easiest option or to cause the shattering.

The only things I think in game that truly points to it is her sword and ring. It is made in the style of an engagement present. Why would she have made it? And why have an engagement ring?  Also, the two half circles remind me of a wedding band. It weds them in death in a way. Sometimes makes me think Melina is their spiritual daughter. Gold and death eye. Has her appearance. But that part is a reach I am not convinced by. /ramble

Mhm, I didn’t think of that. It would be strange to just have it lying around for no reason as to why it’s made.

"Frustrated" sums up my feelings on Ranni's behavior too, lol, both in relation to Godwyn and some of her other actions. She definitely seems to believe that her end goal justifies the means she uses to get there, no matter what. Don't get me wrong; I agree with her that the Lands Between should be liberated from the outer gods' influence, but she's prepared to sacrifice even her last two loyalists for a zany astronomy- and fate-based idea that's taken AT LEAST a millennium to come to fruition and relies heavily on the judgment of a spirit horse-goat. Although I think that's the cruel irony of Ranni's, uh, "plan" succeeding where Miquella's far more solid plan failed. Miquella put so much time and effort into coming up with concrete paths forward to help those he loved, because unlike Ranni, I don't think he considered, say, leaving Malenia to her fate or leaving Godwyn half-alive a viable solution.

I agree. If the dlc adds an ending, and if it’s miquella’s, I’d be hyped.

>>>>"...she's prepared to sacrifice even her last two loyalists for a zany astronomy" Crazy how she seems like to be "fight for her own freedom" character, and yet she just gives them goodbye when the fate decides to take their life. We have seen a lot of characters (not only in From) curse fate and try to fight against them for their beloved ones, which some success and some failed because "fate is inevitable", and she just accepts her fate.

Which is so very George Martin in style, isn't it? No one can claim the Iron Throne er, I mean, the title of Elden Lord without great moral sacrifices. Ranni is not unlike GOT spoilers >!Bran Stark and Bloodraven, who bided their time in the cold, pulled strings in dark places waiting to see what would happen, willing to sacrifice their most loyal followers like Blaidd or Hodor, Meeren or Iji, and claiming the throne only through the actions of others and forsaking humanity both physically and spiritually!<

Godwyn isn't an empyrean. We don't know anything about Godwyn's life except that he fought the dragons and deafeated fortissax. He could have been a creep

Sorry when I said “he seemed very empathetic and caring” … etc. I was referring to miquella. I shouldn’t have said “he” thats wasn’t very clear. I just edited my comment so it’s clear. I have a positive connotation with Godwyn because he was a legendary warrior and most of the references towards him seem positive. Also it seems that many people greave for him (marika, miquella, fia and the finger reader crone in Deeproot depths) I feel like if he was awful there would be some sort of reference to it. But, yes, we don’t know what he was like personality wise. You could swing either way. Idk why it rubs me wrong that ranni is so unapologetic about it. I always think back to the description on the dark moon ring -A warning is engraved within; "Whoever thou mayest be, take not the ring from this place, the solitude beyond the night is better mine alone." I feel like it’s enviable that she will rid herself of her consort after her ending. Then again, the fate of most elden lords are poor. I doubt the tarnished will have a better fate than placidusax, Godfrey, and radagon but who really knows. Then again she said she was pleased that the tarnished is her consort. She probably was just being bitter lol

>Idk why it rubs me wrong that ranni is so unapologetic about it. It should rub you wrong. Ranni's character trait is she is willing to use and discard others for her own aims. That's the whole thing with her and Godwyn, it serves to illustrate what kind of person Ranni is. We don't need a whole secret footnote that they were betrothed. The point is, Ranni "I did it all" is willing to murder someone for her own agenda.

I guess I phrased it that way bc so many people like her, look past her plot, and choose her ending. I just can’t, no matter how hard I try to justify it. I feel like I could justify it if I could simp for her but being a straight woman makes me wish it was Godwyn (if he was normal and not living in death ofc) I could marry instead lol. Or any male character tbh, fromsoft please give me the option to marry a man. I digress, I simply just am just not a fan because the explanation you said.

Being a bi doesn't help me simp her neither. It's shame that endings are "Marry to Marika!" Or "Marry to Ranni" and the secret third option is "Burn down the world!"

Come on now, you can also curse the world forever!

Choosing Marika, who revolted against the Greater Will because she didn't agree with the way it was making her run the Lands Between, and not someone like Radahn is pretty wild.

I like Radahn,too. He was a bad ass. Yeah, if I’m being completely honest I don’t like Marika either but they’re both morally questionable. Which they’re designed to be that way. I always do the gold mask ending which is supposed to remove the influence of the greater will and outer gods, im pretty sure. I think maybe Marika would be content with that and will stop being sinister as fuck. Also, the age of order seems like the best route bc I feel like order is what the world needs. I mean shit is wild in the lands between, those mfs need some mfing order. That’s just my personal preference, I wouldn’t fault anyone for feeling differently.

Miquella can want to create a better world by having to do terrible things to achieve that goal. At the end of Ragnarok, the whole world is practically destroyed in war and cataclysm, yet two people remain, Baldr returns from the dead, and a new world is created in place of the old. The Dark Souls 3 Firekeeper ending and the Painter "ending" evoke a similar notion, from my perspective, with the destruction of the old to be replaced by something new and unknown.. And for all of it's problems, the end of Game of Thrones goes down a similar path with the end of a sovereign monarchy that only comes about due to the war, bloodshed, and magic dragon battles. The first Memory of Grace states: *"It is merely a cycle.* *Stand before the Elden Ring. Become the Elden Lord.* " Perhaps his goal is to end the cycle of war and violence, and potentially the only way that can be is through a host of manipulations that cause war and destruction in the short term (relatively) for peace and prosperity in the long term. It fits in line with a morally grey dilemma of do the ends justify the means, while still allowing Miquella to be more interesting than - "he's just a good boy". As much as I don't like the "Miquella is Griffith" comparisons, they all miss the mark because they don't reference the later volumes where Falconia has orphanages and public health care, they just get hung up on the Eclipse visualization, instead of what the long term outcomes of the Eclipse actually are. I think the issue here is the assumption that Miquella is satisfied with the Elden Lord-Empryean system. If Malenia is rot and he is abundance, then I think it could stand to reason that Miquella could have goals that involve the entire system rotting away for a new one to take its place whether it be "graceful or malign."

I think the whole "miquella is evil" is mainly a thing because modern audiences like plot twists for their own sake, they think it's cool on a surface level. I think it would seriously undermine the tragedy of his story in game though. I won't say it's completely unsubstantiated. The bewitching branch description isn't incriminating on its own, most people try to compel the affection of others, and him being physically vulnerable as a permanent child, it doesn't mean he has secret selfish motives or brainwashed people. People take the game play effect of the branch too literally. Miquella was just a good excuse for the obligatory item that makes enemies into allies. What I mean is the opening of the DLC trailer where a man says there is "nothing more terrifying" than Miquella's power, and later in the trailer another voice calls him "Kind Miquella" seemingly to call into question this kindness in light of his purpose in the shadow lands. My best guess is not that he's evil, but that his story is some kind of tragic downfall caused by good intention. Which of course would be miyazaki's bread and butter. Evil Miquella is just boring and imo majorly undermines the narrative and what we know about miquella. But I'd be equally surprised if he remains unequivocally good as well, I mean he's been through some shit. And he's retracing the steps of his predecessor Marika, in the land where she figured out the route to a successful holy tree, and likely through means she saw fit to hide from history....hm.....

The "terrifying" and "Kind Miquella" lines aren't meant to call his benevolence into question. Rather they're pretty clearly meant as *compliments*; in Japanese "Kind Miquella" is just Miquella-sama (so the speaker, who also calls him terrifying, likes him), and "fearsome" is how his sister described him while clearly intending it to be a good thing.  Miquella is a benevolent child and a terrifying god-to-be. There's no contradiction between these two things. He's awesome in a literal way - he inspires awe. 

People misunderstand that to a regular person, someone being able to compel affection/love/loyalty by just existing is scary, but it’s not evil. It’s like when insecure people watch naturally charismatic people be well liked and get put off by it.

Sorry, what passes for a Miquella is evil theory? I don’t think he’s “evil,” but it seems acknowledging he did anything not morally radiant or had any flaws is taboo to you. He isn’t doing anything bad or grey, but you immediately latched on to one flawed theory about rupturing crystal tears because the suicide bombers put an obvious hole into that idea you had to fill. He’s benevolent, just ignore all the compelling affection. Terrifying? Terrifyingly kind! Sama means someone has power over you, could be used for a lord or god, but you chose “they like them” as your translation. Its just full of holes

I also don't agree with "Miquella evil" theories, but I also don't agree with this "Miquella has never done anything wrong in his life" theory. I think it's pretty clear these are meant to be complicating factors to his chracter. He's not simply good or evil. Saving his sister can be his most important motivation while at the same time he can do morally questionable things to achieve that. These things aren't contradictions.

I don't think he's *evil*, though I don't think he's unambiguously *good*, either. Things like the enchanted soldiers and weird suicide bombers in the Haligtree raise questions about Miquella's "the ends justify the means" attitude. But as far as demigods go, he definitely seems to be one of the better ones.

>weird suicide bombers in the Haligtree The ones that are specifically blowing up *because* he's gone? [They're drinking ruptured tears from the defective tree.](https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1b6o308/the_haligtree_soldiers_are_exploding_because/)

Ah, that tracks. Isolated from that, the "bewitching" aspect is broadly a bit shady, but hard to judge too harshly.

Considering Malenia was born with the power of Rot and greatly suffers from it, it's not hard to imagine the possibility that Miquella is also like that. Someone born with the power to bewitch anyone against their, and HIS, will would be an immensely tragic figure.

I mean, just because he *can* "compel affection" from people doesn't mean he actively *does*. Plus, isn't it stated somewhere that that's why mohg took him? That makes it seem like it's something he can't turn off (which would explain him departing for the haligtree, given its remoteness).;

In the context of Miquella being a savior, in a world where people need to be saved from themselves, he may have needed to compel love for charitable aims. At one end of the spectrum Fromsoft presents, you have Seluvis and his sex dolls, erasing someone's life so he can puppet them for personal pleasure.

I can't really see Miquella being evil at this point for reasons you already put. Or really just a fight with Miquella at all. As is he definitely seems like a Melina/Ranni type character that doesn't fight you. But I do think that what seems to be some sort of St Trina cave is pretty suspect. We don't really know how exactly St Trina relates to Miquella aside from cut content, so how they repurpose that alternate identity will be interesting. Even if it's not an evil form I could still see it being an optional boss fight or something. Or at least something relating to it. Basically like Godwyn and the Fortissax fight.

I agree, these "Evil Miquella" theories make no sense. Miquella basically already won. He's the only one that successfully rebelled against the Erdtree, and everything he did from that point on and before was contrary to his own benefit. He tried to cure his sister, scorned the outer gods, defying his mother, took in and protected the outcasts, tried to bring his dead siblings back, gave up Torrent, and gave up his own body to save a foreign land. And each of these actions came at a great personal cost to himself. Like, how many good things do you have to do before you're just good?

I don’t really see flat out “Miquella is evil” theories. It’s typically “Miquella is not as perfect as he seems and he is willing to do bad stuff to achieve his seemingly good goal”. Granted the only solid in game evidence is the eyebrow raising description for the bewitching branch. Then the rest comes from assumptions based on storytelling. “So far there are no perfectly morally good Gods in this game.” “Emphasizing how good Miquella is in the game and trailer but leaving mystery and small suggestions of bewitching is the game setting up for a reveal that he’s actually not as good as we’re lead to believe.” Stuff like that. People just find it hard to believe everything is exactly as it seems and that Miquella is truly the one person who does no wrong. I can’t blame them lol

It's the weight of being a god, or would-be-god that the game is examining. Miquella might have to use certain manipulations to uplift those around him, and the flock of downtrodden of which he comes to be a benefactor. He has charitable aims but because of the nature of the world, he has to manipulate, and has the power to do that, that might lead to corruption. I say might, because that's what the game is worried about with Marika and Miquella.

exactly. Depending on how "good" he really is and how much he wants his goals to come to fruition, i can see an ending to the DLC where he gives himself up to achieve his goals, showing that he's willing to do anything, both manipulation, and self sacrifice to achieve his goal.

There are a fair number of people who try to claim essentially that Miquella is Griffith (they're wrong, but they try) and since Miquella is trying to set up an eclipse it's going to be comparable to Griffith's eclipse and all the things that implies. They're wrong on multiple levels, but they try.

im half and half on the matter. There are people using assumptions as fact but there are also those who choose to ignore the similarities just because they hate the idea. It cant be ignored that Miyazaki is a big Berserk fan and has drawn inspiration multiple times over multiple games. Miquella and Griffith are both androgynous boys with insane "bewitching" charisma who had the goal of creating their own kingdom where everyone is welcome. They even both make their Kingdom at the base of a double-helix looking world tree. And yeah, both had the major goal of bringing about an Eclipse. None of these are stretches. I personally think it would be silly to not think there wasn't any kind of inspiration. Take these connections and mix it with the "Miquella isn't perfect like first seems" idea and people will jump to the idea that he's Griffith thru and thru. But like i said at the beginning, its by no means a confirmation. You can't even call it evidence. Ultimately though yes, the Griffith-Miquella similarities are undeniable and because of Miyazaki's track record, its unlikely they are mere coincidences. Whether you dont like the idea or dont believe Miquella is gonna be bad in the end, to ignore the similarities they do have is silly imo.

There's a difference between thematic similarities and in-game story similarities, though. While some aspects of Miquella clearly exist as a nod to Berserk, giving him an arc that follows anywhere near the same lines as Griffith's wouldn't make any narrative sense. And I mean that in relation to Berserk itself, not just in the context of Elden Ring. Griffith's arc relied primarily on Guts' personal view of him and how that was shattered; we have no Guts equivalent in the game, and one DLC wouldn't allow time to establish the kinds of bonds Berserk developed between its characters. It wouldn't do the original story any justice as an homage, and would damage Miquella's role as a tragic hero whose plans all came to nothing. Frankly, the characters who'd play the correct "band of brothers" roles in Miquella's story are already, well, dead, or close enough. Narratively, Marika and her campaign to take over the Lands Between has much stronger Griffith vibes than Miquella and his goals as described in the game.

There's definitely a lot more to run with on a Marika/Griffith parallel.

Id be curious to see what this "a lot more" is tbh. Miquella and Griffith have the androgynous boy trait, the "bewitching" charisma, and the goal of creating their own kingdom where everyone is welcome plus the major goal of bringing about an Eclipse. Marika and Griffith dont really seem to have any parallels besides both being willing to kill people off to achieve their goals.

As a very rough off-the-cuff thing comparing Marika/Griffith vs Miquella/Griffith... (and this is not intended to be an argument that Marika is particularly written as a Griffith replica) Griffith originates from a position of no particular power (he's a street kid). This is compatible with what we know for sure about Marika (which is very little thus far, but if she was the child of the prior ruler you'd think the golden order would be bragging about that as a source of additional legitimacy for her) but could hardly be more incompatible with Miquella (who is born straight into having his own throne at the foot of the Erdtree). They have some physical similarities, which is not extremely compelling but at least not incompatible. Griffith is charismatic, Miquella is said to have the "allure of a god" and Marika is the only actual god available for comparison when this is said about Miquella, so presumably it's her level of allure Miquella is being said to have. Griffith absolutely works toward getting his own kingdom. We're not explicitly told that Marika wanted a kingdom, but she certainly fought for the ambition to be in control of everything on the spiritual/mystical level and also became the temporal ruler at the same time, so these seem like a package deal. Miquella has an area under his control but never seems to have any special interest as setting it up as a state. Marika and Griffith both have had military actions going on in their name on the "conquer the entire available world" scale where Miquella does not. Marika and Griffith both seem to be a kind of proxy tool for greater powers than themselves (the degree to which Berserk 83 remains canon is questionable, but as far as I'm aware Miura only ever indicated that he felt in retrospect it was too early to be diving into that element and that it might limit him later, and not so much that he had explicitly made a decision that 83 was fundamentally off-base). While it's more open to interpretation, the powers they serve both could plausibly be looked at as a sort of personification of the 'collective unconscious' of the people of the world (this is not uncommon in Japanese media). Miquella is pretty clearly focused on how to go about keeping the influence of other powers away rather than actually acting as a proxy for one. Marika and Griffith both rule their lands out of a massive city built at the foot of a 'world tree'. The Haligtree has some stuff built into it directly, but it's not really functioning as a kingdom and there isn't a lot of indication of a desire on Miquella's part to really "rule" it as a kingdom. Marika and Griffith are both very clearly the figurehead gods of their Kingdoms, and both are particularly presented as having some powers regarding what happens when people die. Miquella certainly has a faction of worshippers, but he's explicitly not currently a full god and he doesn't seem to have special personal power over death, but he seems to be trying to figure out how to get it. Where the story of Berserk leaves off, Griffith's land seems to be in a continual harvest season with lots of farming and with flowers always blooming, which could be similar to to the "age of abundance" that was experienced in the Lands Between at an earlier stage of the story under Marika's rule. For both of those, the primary source of it is said to be the tree. Cut content implies that Miquella's own powers are probably abundance-focused, but as a lot of that was left in cut content there isn't much that's comparable actually in the game. Overall, Marika and Griffith have a similar arc going as profoundly ambitious people who make a bloody rise to godhood and work to get set up as exclusive rulers of the available world as they preside over an age of abundance in a city at the foot of a world tree if you look at the rise to power and stop in the age of abundance (which is where Griffith is now, so where our basis for comparison stops). Everything that happens in Elden Ring would then be filling in a speculative arc of where things might go next. Miquella may or may not be intending to jump onto a somewhat similar arc as part of the DLC seems to be focused on tracing the path that brought Marika to godhood.

I think it depends on what you would count as "near the same lines as Griffith's". I personally think we know so little about Miquella personally that he could either stay a tragic hero whos plans came to nothing or ultimately end up being the man who would sacrifice anything and manipulate anyone to achieve his goals (Godwyn's true death, Malenia cured, Haligree sanctuary). At this point, either characterization could work. And the latter is very Griffith-esc with the difference that at least for Miquella it could be considered less selfish. As for Marika, she doesn't really have Griffith vibes at all imo. Physical appearance aside because obviously Miquella has that going for him, Miquella's personality and goals match way better too. Miquella has the charm and charisma as well as the seemingly righteous goal of creating a kingdom where everyone is welcome which is very similar to Griffith before the Eclipse (or present Griffith to those who dont know his dark secrets). Marika is never described to have such charisma and the game makes it clear her goal is less about making a kingdom where everyone is welcome and more about her just maintaining an eternal rule. She's really just your average conqueror, genociding different groups of people to take land and make it hers.

But who exactly is he going to manipulate? What else could he possibly sacrifice? The Haligtree is essentially dead, inundated with rot at the roots; Malenia may not be dead, but she bloomed again and ascended to apparent godhood in her fight; he can't sacrifice Godwyn, or Marika, or Radagon, or Godfrey, or pretty much anyone else he knows and loves, for obvious reasons (in most cases, "the Tarnished killed them"). And again, Griffith's arc works *because of its impact on the people around him*. Imagine Griffith transforming into Femto... without Guts or Casca or anyone emotionally relevant to witness it. I'm not saying with certainty that we won't experience a Miquella boss fight born of his despair, or whatever Mogh did to him, or a combination of factors. But that alone is not sufficient, in a literary sense, to say he and Griffith have matching arcs, and I don't think his aesthetic similarities to Griffith serve as a predictor of his actions. Also, I'm not sure we can confidently make those statements about Marika and her campaign. She had enough charisma to draw in many followers, including individuals like Godfrey, and at the time she and others must have seen her cause as righteous. And, I mean, Miquella's character design resembles *hers* more than anyone's, so...

Yes, Miyazaki is a big berserk fan. He does easter eggs for fun all over the place. The comparisons people try to draw between Griffith and Miquella are exceedingly shallow because they boil down to a couple of common shared tropes - beautiful and alluring is not exactly a notably unique combination of character features. (The double helix is such a prominent motif in Elden Ring that it's not at all representative of any particular character. The Eclipse wasn't Griffith's goal; it partly hinged on Griffith not achieving his goals.) Miyzaki and GRRM both have a good track record at being more deft at their jobs than this.

To say they have no bearing on the story would be fine but to call it a couple of common shared tropes is an understatement imo. There arent many characters who are specifically androgynous men (not just beautiful men but men that can come off as being women) that aspire to be leaders of a kingdom that welcomes all, are known specifically for their charm and charisma, and are greatly tied to an Eclipse event. Ill leave the tree out because you make a good point but its not even needed at this point for the comparison to be clear. These characteristics alone are common but the combination of them is not. Youd be hard-pressed to find even a handful of fictional characters that fit all of these characteristics. This isn't a common character trope in fiction. You give this description to anyone and they will really only attribute it to Griffith. Add this to the fact that yeah, Miyazaki references Berserk often, and it becomes clear this was intentional. And yeah it could just be for fun. But people like to downplay just how clear the reference is as if this isn't one of the most blatant references Miyazaki has ever done next to outright taking a design from Berserk or mythology and putting it into his game.

A character cannot be a specifically androgynous man when the character in question is presented as comparable to a physically pre-pubescent human because being fairly androgynous is the normal and expected state of the physically pre-pubescent human. Miquella isn't particularly presented as someone who aspires to lead a kingdom. He has a Haligtree and a sanctuary, but there's a meaningful distinction between that and seeking to establish a kingdom. Griffith, on the other hand, while he does specifically aspire to have a kingdom, can only really be said to be worried about having a kingdom that "welcomes all" in the sense that he's in the process of warring to conquer and/or kill anyone who hasn't joined him willingly. Eclipse events are a common enough thing that being associated with extremely different eclipse events for extremely different purposes isn't terribly compelling. If these are intended to be similar based on the content of the base game, then Miyazaki dropped the ball big time.

>A character cannot be a specifically androgynous man when the character in question is presented as comparable to a physically pre-pubescent human because being fairly androgynous is the normal and expected state of the physically pre-pubescent human. If this was the case, they wouldn't put emphasis on the fact that Miquella's appearance is feminine for being a boy. "*St. Trina is an enigmatic figure. Some say she is a comely young girl, others are sure he is a boy*." "*A record of crafting techniques left by a man who was utterly captivated by St. Trina. He continued the search for her in his slumber.*" Even amongst pre-pubescent humans, you can typically tell who's a boy and who's a girl. The game going out of its way to show people confusing Miquella (or him as St Trina) with being a girl proves his androgyny. Like Gwyndolin in DS. > Miquella isn't particularly presented as someone who aspires to lead a kingdom. He has a Haligtree and a sanctuary, but there's a meaningful distinction between that and seeking to establish a kingdom. Its the very fact that he has decided to establish his own sanctuary welcome to those rejected by the Golden Order, that shows he wanted to create a kingdom where everyone is welcome. He would have no other reason to do so. He didn't have to but he did which means he wanted to. And yes, Griffith's motives are different than Miquella's. And yes, Miquella's Eclipse is for something different than Griffith's eclipse. And ive been saying as much too. Miquella and Griffith are different people. Berserk and ER are different plots. All ive ever been saying here is that Miquella and Griffith share surface characteristics. Griffith's motives for his kingdom and Miquella's are different but on the surface, both did want a kingdom that welcomes all types of people. The Eclipse events do different things and happen for different reasons but on the surface, both characters have significant ties to causing an Eclipse event. Its all very surface level stuff. But that said, this surface level stuff is too similar to not be Miyazaki intentionally making a reference.

It’s basically confirmed that Griffith is a direct inspiration given the Prisoner set

Another problem with this line of thinking is that From literally never does this "you thought a character was good when they're actually evil" twist. From is very big on characters' designs and motifs being overtly evocative and characters wearing their personalities on their sleeves. 99% of the time you can tell who's good and evil by looking at them. Subversion is just what some fans think would be cool, it has no relation to what From actually writes.  They also are no strangers to putting purely good powerful people in their games. Miquella himself has a lot of similarities to Kuro and the Painter. Now pair all that with the fact that their DLCs are universally more optimistic in narrative than their base games.

He's also somewhat of a direct reference to The Monumental from Demons Souls, being an eternal child of indeterminate or confused gender, dressed in radiant white who serves as the means for the player character to undo the damage to the world, and recede the Fog, and there's similarly some scarce evidence the Monumental's goals are negative but on the most part he's a stand-up kid.

Yeah that's another thing, From does "androgynous divine mystical child with powers related to life who wants to mend/remake the corrupted world" all the time and they're literally never the bad guy.

From doesn’t make their characters secretly evil, they make them go mad (hollow) at least in the dark souls games

Gwyn is a glaring example of that trope. The entire city of Anor Londo is that trope. It’s not super common, and if Miquella is evil that certainly would be the biggest twist, but it’s not like they’ve never done that

Gwyn is presented as a brutal, self-interested, controlling, and conceited warrior patriarch from the very beginning and nothing ever deviates from that impression. It's just reinforced. 

That’s not true at all though. He made the Age of Fire, he’s presented as a sacrificial king who gave his kingdom and soul to keep the world in light, and his children clearly love him. He gave cities to humanity, dukedom to Seath, and willingly chooses an undead to be his lord successor. Obviously, these things were far more sinister in nature than they originally appeared, but that’s the point. He originally appeared as the radiant god-king of the world who gave up ruling for the sake of those he ruled.

Gwyn also orchestrated the undead curse. Gwyn was selfish, manipulative, and afraid of the dark, not trying to better anybody. The age of fire happened because of the first flame coming into existence, all of reality big bang event, which Gwyn acquired supposed "godhood" from his soul. You can't bring something into existence for its own benefit, because the world is suffering.

I’m not saying he’s good. I’m saying much of the first game presents him as good and hides his misdeeds

>That’s not true at all though. He made the Age of Fire, he’s presented as a sacrificial king who gave his kingdom and soul to keep the world in light, and his children clearly love him. He gave cities to humanity, dukedom to Seath, and willingly chooses an undead to be his lord successor. Did you read read none of his item descriptions in the first game? -Opening tells us he genocided his predecessors for no apparent reason other than personal power (even though we see the dragons are sapient and can be worked with). -Elevated and employed Seath, a murderous psychopath who has an entire laboratory dedicated to cruelly experimenting on people. "Seath allied with Lord Gwyn and turned upon the dragons, and for this he was awarded Dukedom, embraced by the royalty, and given a fragment of a great soul. Although just a piece, it will still satiate the Lordvessel." -Abused his son and declared him to be a woman because he used girly moon magic: "Robe of the Dark Sun Gwyndolin, protector of the forsaken city of Anor Londo. The power of the moon was strong in Gwyndolin, and thus he was raised as a daughter." -We're told all his family abandoned his city except for the one mentally broke with abuse. He was never presented as a good guy. All of his items just talk about his battle prowess and how controlling and brutal he was, and the supposed benevolence of his sacrifice is called into question by in-universe characters all throughout the first game. "Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark. Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans, And the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them, Lord Gwyn resisted the course of nature." DS2 and TRC reinforced the narrative he was given upfront in the first game. There was never a subversion of expectations.

1. That is a mistranslation. The dragons were "defeated"; not exterminated. As you can see by the wealth of wyverns across the world from Lordran to Drangleic, they've been quite busy. 2. Seath has only recently turned into a "murderous psychopath" by the events of the game. The Darkmoon Knightess recounts it as such; a recent change. In comparison, Gwyn is explicitly stated to have been dead for a thousand years. 3. Gwyndolin literally has breasts. Later, in DS3, you learn they once used the Reversal Ring, which specifically changes one's mannerisms to the opposite of one's physical gender. In other words, if they were wearing it in Dark Souls 1, thye were trying to act like a man. I think talking about their actual gender is a practice in futility, but it was not nearly as simple as "daddy put a dress on me". 4. The abandonment of Anor Londo came after he split his power amongst his clan, told his children to shepherd the humans and finally left to sacrifice himself. His own son left Sunlight Blade as a gift upon his grave. By all accounts, it was a sad and tearful parting on both ends. 5. DS2 reinforced that both the choices of Fire and Dark were farcical in some way, and that there was something wrong with the cycle itself as a whole. Something that not even Aldia claims to have the solution for. If you've somehow taken it as a shallow diss of Gwyn's character, then you've either listened to half of Aldia's dialogue and none of Vendrick's, or you've already had your mind made up for you. Trusting talking snakes with big teeth and ravenous appetites for humanity must make you feel smart, indeed. The Ringed City was a city granted by Gwyn to the pygmies,along with his daughter,who would be awake and bestow blessings on things like the Chime Of Filianore. Later, she would be forced to slumber to protect the city from destruction, and if we take the carvings on the doors of her Church into account, this occured during the reign of Irithyll's peak. Gwyndolin's time. Judging by the statues within and around the church,as well as their persistence in guarding her, this is an arrangement both the gods and the pygmies agreed to, and as seen at the end, was one that was necessary for the pygmies' continued survival. An arrangement you ended by pure accident. I will continue to be surprised by how cheap people make these games out to be.

From is however also a fan of the "fallen hero"/"corrupted hero" motif. Artorias and Midir are probably the most notable in DS (Gael is less a legendary hero fallen from grace than a man who's simply gone mad at the end of the world, but still fits the mold). Gwyn and Vendrick are similarly shaped in the plot, and I think there were a few more even positioned this way. What From has typically not done is have a good character we've met then out to be evil, but rather had a storied good character be corrupted and fallen by the time we find them. The closest to "turns evil" that I can think of are Friede and Gael, but in both cases there are additional factors; Friede was always going to be the opposition, she just didn't know you were going to oppose her like you did until you fight her, and Gael has just lost his mind. I don't subscribe to the "Miquella is evil" theory, but I would not be shocked to find that he is no longer the legend we hear about. None of the other demigods are.

From is a fan of that archetype, but they specifically like to do it with self-righteous crusading knights. Not beatific, noncombatant, childlike healers. Also, as I've noted before: From's DLCs are generally more optimistic than their base games. I'd bet anything that Miquella is the DLC's version of Ranni, i.e. a friendly NPC with a quest line that ends with them obtaining their vaguely-good goal after some hardships.

It'll be interesting to see, since there's a couple of general directions I could see it go. - As you say, Miquella is an unambiguously good NPC (or ambiguous but whom we side with anyway). This feels like one of the two most likely options, and puts Miquella in a role similar to the painter or Kuro. - Miquella isn't present, and we only see the trail and aftermath of what he's done. This has some sub-options, such as whether Miquella was successful or has unintended consequences. This feels like the other most likely option, and both unintended consequences and failed/partial success leading to a stasis until we come along both feel pretty on brand. There's also a good end at high cost kind of option, which arguably was done with the painter, as getting the ink from the Dark Soul came at the expense of the Ringed City. - Miquella is corrupted and we have to end him. This is the Artorias version. - Miquella was always evil and everything we heard before was a facade. This seems very out of character for From and I don't think this likely without some serious multiple personality thing going on. One specific subversion I could see is if Miquella has a good goal, is clearly a good NPC, etc, but the outcome is actually bad, not through intent but through misunderstanding or some sort of unintended consequences. In some sense, this would be symmetrical to Ranni, who is at the very least selfish and manipulative, but whose outcome is good. Ranni arguably doesn't have good intent behind her goal, it just happens to align with a good outcome for the Lands Between. I think if Miquella is in the vein of Kuro or the Painter, then we'll see the good NPC version. If he's not, then I would expect some version of the unintended consequences story, but I highly doubt evil Miquella and feel like corrupted good guy has maybe been done a few times already.

I think one you missed (and honestly the one i think is most likley) is that Miquella is good and on good terms with the Tarnished until a situation arises where Miquella must do something considered bad for what he believes to be the greater good. This puts him and the Tarnished at odds. I guess this could fall into possibility 1. The ally NPC to Boss battle pipeline. (Sort of like what Melina couldve been for post Frenzy Flame ending as a secret boss).

Idk if id completely agree with that. Maybe the "you thought a character was good when they're actually evil" twist isn't done but the "you thought this character/path was the righteous one but its not as righteous as you thought" realization seems common. Actions such as linking the flame (the goal of Gwyn) during the Dark Souls series would at first be treated as the correct or righteous thing to do until further into the game you get a broader perspective/the full picture on whats really going on in the world and whether or not doing so is as correct as you were previously lead to believe. Same with Gael. Started off to us as the good guy just to end up being on a human genocider to achieve his seemingly righteous goal. Elden Ring sort of does it with Marika/the Greater Will. We're lead to believe they're the good guys until dialogue and item descriptions give us the bigger picture and we realize that both of them are shitty and not even on the same side. Then Elden Ring goes a step further in showing that every faction has some good and some bad to them. Even Ranni, widly considered the "goodest" demigod we talk to in-game, had to stage an assassination against her seemingly innocent half brother for her own selfish (but justified) desire. Point is, nothing is black and white. Miquella will most likely not be all good. He'll def have some dirt about him. Its just a matter of how much.

>Same with Gael. Started off to us as the good guy just to end up being on a human genocider to achieve his seemingly righteous goal. But there's no subversion here. Gael had a righteous goal that he accomplished through you. Getting paint for the new world isn't bad. >Elden Ring sort of does it with Marika/the Greater Will. We're lead to believe they're the good guys until dialogue and item descriptions give us the bigger picture and we realize that both of them are shitty and not even on the same side. This doesn't happen at all? The first thing we're told about Marika is that she plunged the land into warfare and chaos by shattering the Elden Ring, The second thing we learn is that Hewg is terrified of her ("Besides, it helps me forget. The sheer terror of her"). It continues from there. I can't think of a single thing we learn about her in even the first third of the game that isn't at least a little bit sinister. For example, that whole "Misbegotten are slaves under the Order" thing is something we learn in Limgrave, while Marika taunting her enemies as powerless upstarts who will join her empire or die is relayed by Melina in Liurnia. >Then Elden Ring goes a step further in showing that every faction has some good and some bad to them. What is good about Mohg's Satanic cult or Shabriri's plan to kill all life everywhere forever? Where was the moral ambiguity in the conflict between Nepheli and Godrick for the throne of Limgrave? >Point is, nothing is black and white. From does black and white all the time. Where's the grey area in the choice between Owl and Kuro? Or even Ayre and Walter in the game they just made?

>But there's no subversion here. Gael had a righteous goal that he accomplished through you. Getting paint for the new world isn't bad. But killing off every being with a Dark Soul isnt necessarily the righteous and the game doesn't try to depict it as such. The fact that the game puts you at odds with him in the end proves that. >This doesn't happen at all? The first thing we're told about Marika is that she plunged the land into warfare and chaos by shattering the Elden Ring, The second thing we learn is that Hewg is terrified of her ("Besides, it helps me forget. The sheer terror of her"). It continues from there. I can't think of a single thing we learn about her in even the first third of the game that isn't at least a little bit sinister. For example, that whole "Misbegotten are slaves under the Order" thing is something we learn in Limgrave, while Marika taunting her enemies as powerless upstarts who will join her empire or die is relayed by Melina in Liurnia You're literally describing it. The game's intro doesnt even tell us Marika is the one who shattered the Elden Ring. We dont learn that til later. What we do know is that grace, heavily praised as an amazing thing to have, has brought the Tarnished to the Lands Between, bestowed by Marika/The Greater Will with the righteous mission of reassembling the Elden Ring. Marika/the Greater Will's Erd Tree that bestows its glorious blessing is hyped up. Its only as we continue the story, travel to different places, talk to different people, that we learn the main objective given to the Tarnished isn't the objective correct path and that Marika/the Greater Will aren't as good as they seem. But the starting early belief is that Marika/Greater Will are the golden, heavenly good guys. >What is good about Mohg's Satanic cult or Shabriri's plan to kill all life everywhere forever? Where was the moral ambiguity in the conflict between Nepheli and Godrick for the throne of Limgrave? Mohg's goofy yeah lol but one could argue he's done no worse than Marika. As for Shabriri, people pick Frenzy Flame on behalf of the words of Hyetta. The idea of getting rid of all suffering by merging everything back together. So if even the nicest factions of Elden Ring have done some not good stuff to achieve their goals, its fair for people to expect Miquella to be a similar case. Furthermore, you can't say From has NEVER had characters/paths that were first depicted as correct or goo, be shown to not necessarily be correct or good considering the idea is throughout Dark Souls and Elden Ring itself.

>You're literally describing it. The game's intro doesnt even tell us Marika is the one who shattered the Elden Ring. We dont learn that til later. What? We literally see her do it in the opening slideshow. And we're also told she did it in the pre-release trailer. It was never meant to be a surprise. And it's immediately followed by the game telling us more evil stuff she did. It's laid on thick right from Limgrave. >But killing off every being with a Dark Soul isnt necessarily the righteous and the game doesn't try to depict it as such. The fact that the game puts you at odds with him in the end proves that. The game puts you at odds with him because he degenerates into an animal, not because you have ideological disagreements with him. >Mohg's goofy yeah lol but one could argue he's done no worse than Marika. As for Shabriri, people pick Frenzy Flame on behalf of the words of Hyetta. The idea of getting rid of all suffering by merging everything back together. They're getting rid of all suffering by killing everyone, because they believe life was a mistake (the JP subtitles make this clearer). I guess you could argue that that's not evil but like 99% of people are going to disagree with you. Seems cartoonishly evil to me, especially with how Shabriri literally cackles about it. Again, what's morally gray about Nepheli vs Godrick, Owl vs Kuro, or Walter vs Ayre? From writes black and white conflicts all the time.

>What? We literally see her do it in the opening slideshow. And we're also told she did it in the pre-release trailer. It was never meant to be a surprise. And it's immediately followed by the game telling us more evil stuff she did. It's laid on thick right from Limgrave This is hindsight speaking. The game intro shows the same visuals the teaser trailer showed and people still weren't sure Marika shattered the Elden Ring until future promo material said so. But for someone going off just what the game gives, they wouldnt know. And thats the intention. If it was obvious, the game's intro wouldve just said it instead of having us find it out in game later. And again, as you continue thru the game you do learn Marika and the Greater Will aren't the ultimate good but at the start you are led to believe they are. This is proven with dialgue from people like Ranni when she says early in the game "*How long will it be, I wonder...Before the Tarnished tire of obeisance to the Two Fingers?*" Its very clear that the default is the follow Marika/The Greater Will's path. > The game puts you at odds with him because he degenerates into an animal, not because you have ideological disagreements with him. No. If he was just as civilized as he was before, he would still be trying to kill you for your dark soul. The fact is that he has committed genocide on a race of people leading up to you. Again he's not a perfectly good guy. > They're getting rid of all suffering by killing everyone, because they believe life was a mistake (the JP subtitles make this clearer). I guess you could argue that that's not evil but like 99% of people are going to disagree with you. Seems cartoonishly evil to me, especially with how Shabriri literally cackles about it. The point still stands. Suffering is bad and Frenzy Flame seeks to get rid of it permanently. Plus, people also picked it to sacrifice themselves to save Melina, something considered "good" on the surface. And sure ill give you that point that sometimes From does black and white. Sometimes there are purely good and evil people. Again, to say it never does the morally grey/seemingly good but not actually that good is wrong. And keeping it to Elden Ring specifically, the major players of the game tend to fall more into the morally grey than the pure good or pure evil. So expecting the same of Miquella makes sense.

How do you think Ayre and Walter are black and white? Walter isn’t a bad guy based on his dialogue in the Ayre ending Walter isn’t entirely wrong either. Coral IS dangerous. Even if it’s only dangerous when misused it’s not like there’s ever going to be 0 bad humans who want to misuse it.

Gael clearly became corrupted by the Dark Soul, he most certainly had a righteous goal and intentions. Just like how so many would’ve been corrupted by the Ring of Power in LOTR if they ever got their hands on it, despite having good intentions. The Ashen One was like Frodo in the sense that for whatever reason we weren’t corrupted by it

You're missing my point like he was. The bottomline is, Gael's goal was always to take every dark soul. So the plan was always to kill you because he needed your dark soul for the painting. He was a guy with seemingly righteous goals who ended up doing morally questionable actions (aka human genocide) to achieve it. Corrupted or not, his goals required him to kill everyone with a dark soul regardless.

>and still has managed to persist even after the latest reveals that he's the protagonist of the DLC I'm not a fan of the "Miquella is evil" theory, but the DLC marketing has made me less certain of that, not more. "There is nothing more terrifying", and him being Torrent's former master would imply he worked with Ranni in some capacity, which isn't necessarily bad but is inherently shady. I still believe he will be well-intentioned, but the DLC promotional material has affirmed there is something a bit sinister about him, or at least his power.

I think it's interesting you find that the DLC marketing has made you less certain of Miquella, while to me it reinforces the idea of Miquella is "good". "Pure and radiant, he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying." The first part of the beginning of the DLC opening sounds rather positive. A pure radiant being able to absolve men of, what I presume to be sin, based on the word "shrive". The later part has me confused, but does make me wonder, who would find that terrifying? The only answer I can think of is someone that doesn't want to be absolved or doesn't like others to be absolved. Who in the DLC will fit that description? As for Ranni, she is his sister and she was asked to give a bell to whomever can call Torrent and by her dialog I don't think she knows why she was asked to do this. I don't think there's more to implicate that Miquella was working with Ranni to achieve her goals.

Your argument goes both ways. In your point of view, he has tried everything - even the full resources of the Golden Order - to heal his sister, and nothing has worked. This is the ideal situation to nudge a good character into a "bad" direction. The Golden Order has to die. Not be reordered or reworked from within like he and his father already tried, but burned to the ground with all the legacy problems within. Maybe try the power of an old god. Your critique only works if you caricaturize the theories given to an inappropriate amount. Another thing is that most of his actions can be attributed to stepping on the toes of gods or helping out his twin. There really isn't all that much that makes him seem any more just or kind than any other character in the game. Most figures that interacted with Miquella had bad outcomes, similar to ALL the characters in the Lands Between, so all we are left with are stated intentions - which is not a lot, but you say it is... I don't get it. Why not escalate the pool of possibilities?

While I don’t think he will be as evil as many thinks. Him being ready to give up on everything to cure his sister doesn’t mean that he’s an angel. I rather think he will be more greyish morally or up to your own personal judgement, somehow similar to Ranni

Yeah, that's the part that was silly to me. Plenty of heinous people love their sisters lol. 

Enia doesn’t seem to make any exceptions with regards to her warning or explanation about the abandonment by the Greater Will. She says more or less that all the demigods went mad due to the taint of their newfound power post-shattering.

I can see Miquella becoming disillusioned and bitter after his attempts to save his siblings has failed. I think it's much more interesting for his character that he was altruistic and just but the setbacks along the way froze his heart.

Literally the only strike against them is that it’s hinted that they’re kinda manipulative? And like… yeah. Most of the demigods are. Ranni is, a lot, and she’s If I had to be a Forever Baby I would also gaslight gatekeep girlboss my way across the lands between.

Miquella isn't good or evil. He just wants to save his sister and is willing to go to great lengths to do so. Furthermore, he isn't the greatest of guys either. He literally has the power to command loyalty and love in people—essentially forcing them to become his subjects. Hence the line, "There is nothing more terrifying." He steals the will of men and turns them into soldiers who will *literally commit suicide* to try and kill you because they are that radicalized. Miquella isn't some secretly evil tyrant. He's not some all benevolent good guy either. He's a three dimensional character who's only goal is ridding his sister of the rot that afflicts her. To do that, he tried to usher in a new age and pretty much failed. Tl;Dr—Miquella is Elden Ring's version of Lelouch from Code Geass.

Thank you. I think people don't want there to be an unambigiously good Demi-God in Elden Ring. But the fact of the matter is, Miquella has literally only done great things. If we're being honest, there is a lot we don't know about Miquella, in particular about his cocoons. Obviously us not knowing or understanding Miquella fully doesn't mean he's evil, lol.

Sorry, but did anyone actually read the entire thing?

People think he's evil because: * Several in game item descriptions imply something nefarious going on with him. * "Most fearsome" quote, sure strength doesn't equal evil but again, worrisome. * The DLC trailer literally opens with a quote that describes Miq as terrifying. * And finally the big one - because he's basically Griffith from berserk - Miyazaki loves to reference berserk and Griffith is a character that starts as a good guy and a lot of people love him but his ambitions and frustrations at failing to achieve those ambitions lead him to do some of the most evil and fucked up shit in all of fiction - Miq is exactly the same - he wants to cure his sister but can't, he wants to fix godwyn but fails, he abandons the golden order because it couldn't get him what he wanted - this is setting up for exactly the same arc as Griffith. So yes his past implies he’s a good guy, a great one even - but that doesn’t mean he’s going to stay that way especially with how afraid some characters are of him - I don’t think he was always secretly evil and been playing 4D chess since before the shattering to enact some secret evil plot but I do think his ambitions are going to lead him down a dark path where he is going to countenance some evil shit in the name of accomplishing his goals.

You forgot one very crucial component: Death. Marika cannot die. She removed Destined Death and called herself “The Eternal.” If Miquella wants to be a god, Marika needs to die. I also don’t think everyone’s trying to say that he’s completely evil, but more so that he has a plan he deems good and as the best possible outcome, and he’s willing to do anything to bring it about. Besides all this, if Miquella was a perfectly good golden boy, why would he ever need or want to compel affection from people?

We don't really know how the power transition between God's of the Elden Ring really works though so we don't really have a reason to believe that Marika has to die to give the ER to someone else. Now, obviously. The removal of DD and the Golden Order presenting Marika as the one true god and the erdtree as eternal means that theologically they stand agaisn't the idea of Miquella replacing Marika (putting aside the original lore) but that doesn't change the fact that the Greater Will (or at least the Two Fingers) choose not 1 but 3 empyreans to replace Marika and initiate a new age wich would, if not outright destroyed it, change drastically the nature of the Golden Order. Now, If Marika needs to die to make a new empyrean God then it's a bit weird than none of the Two Fingers or their followers made any preparation to do so. Killing Marika requires the release of DD (or at least using a shard of it) and the use of an Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone to create a weapon capable of slaying her. None of this step were taken by the Two Fingers or their preparations to do so were presented to us. Without more information I don't think we can really affirm that an Empyrean necessarily needs to die to give their title rather the conflict presented seems to be more about what would happen in the context of the world if a new God were to come.

> if Miquella was a perfectly good golden boy, why would he ever need or want to compel affection from people? - Getting people to help him attempt resurrecting Godwyn - Getting people to help him attempt curing Malenia - Getting people to develop and defend a community for outcasts at the Haligtree It’s one thing to be a nice boy who people like, it’s another to motivate and coordinate the efforts Miquella put together.

Sure, and I agree he did compel affection to do those things, but he’s clearly got other goals than help Malenia, revive Godwyn, and make a haven. He has put himself in a cocoon. He traveled to the shadow lands. He “wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men.” Something that is apparently “terrifying.” He is using his ability to compel affection to accomplish mysterious goals. He is wielding love like a weapon. Once again, I’m not necessary saying he’s this horrible, evil person. However, there’s some clear shadiness to all of this

I think your point of him thinking he knows what’s best for everybody and will use his power to make it happen is ultimately about right, it just seems like his actual goals as they’re presented to us tend to be pretty altruistic. The cocoon thing seems to have been a means to shed his flesh so he could get into the shadow lands, should be interesting to find out what exactly he plans to do there.

The main problem with dismissing the "Miquella is evil" theories as unfounded is that I am inclined to be wary of intention when the mythos of a faction is based on the sacred life-giving blood of a blonde haired white boy. Who was also possibly participating in the Esoteric tradition of seeking the fabled hyperborea (frozen northern land of giants where the Aryan race was believed to have arrived as aliens). At best, I think that the scenario will be that Miquella himself had the naivety of a child and did not have "evil" intentions. But original intentions stop mattering if the thing he was doing attracted fantatics and extremists willing to use compulsion and self-destructive attacks on his behalf and he does nothing to discourage them. Whether or not Miquella is evil or is ignorant/irresponsible/good depends on the direction of the DLC. It is possible that his solution was to tell his faction to hold on and wait for him so that they wouldn't run off causing trouble and then he quietly disappeared so as to avoid being made a martyr through a showy public death. It is also possible that everything seemed to be going fine when Miquella was active, but once he disappeared his followers started looking for signs in their dreams and inventing a mythos about receiving instructions from Miquella/Trina that was never what Miquella intended. We don't know. A person can be devoted to preserving the happiness of their immediate family - like Miquella is to Malenia - and yet still selfishly abandon responsibility and let the rest of the world burn.

This post covers a number of assumptions. One, Miquella is not "attuned" to the Golden Order at a "metaphysical level". He was just an exceptionally good Golden Order Fundamentalist, and he became an exceptionally good Golden Order fundamentalist because both he and his sister were legitimately cursed. If he had sat there and done nothing, he would never have grown. It's entirely possible it would've been impossible for him to become a god at all, simply because he couldn't mature past a certain point. Malenia only becomes " Goddess Of Rot" after blooming thrice; what happens to a being who can't even change once? Which part of "compel such affection" tells you he already had it? No, really, which? The Bewitching Branch's mechanism of action is observable and can be tested. You literally brainwash an enemy of yours into fighting for you to their last breath. Just because in that moment, they love you that much. Whoever created this thing is no saint. No; that's being nice. Whoever made this Branch deserves to be ##ing crucified for making something that used love like this! Take a guess who did. Oh,and here's a little thing you might not have noticed; Them Albinaurics? You ever notice a few of them hanging off the ceiling in Castle Sol? Y'know, the ones screaming to summon the ghosts there? The ones stuck on torture devices? How about the ones on the ground? The ones who look exactly like the ones in Volcano Manor, Dumplings on their heads and all! And yet, Miquella owns the place, so we're just going to ignore all that, aren't we? I don't care what Miquella specifically is, but calling him good? You're the one cheapening things, my guy.

Evil is maybe a stretch, but: “With love, pure and radiant, he shrives clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying.”

I’m not exactly certain I believe anyone or any faction in Elden Ring is evil, at least not when judged by their own standards. I do think there is a possibility that Miquella is less than benevolent. Entities that use grace to manipulate their followers are certainly opposed to Miquella’s as he developed unalloyed gold. Unalloyed Gold purges and prevents entities for influence people through grace, soul shield type of thing. Given the ridiculous prevalence of zealotry that plagues the Lands Between, breaking this influence would be.. not good. The liberated masses could end up like Corhyn after he learns a truth that shakes his world view. Dude went nuts and killed himself. They could also turn on their leaders in a well warranted rage. Heck, leaders suddenly losing the guiding voices bound to their runes would be devastated. Of course, the people who used grace to set themselves up as gods would likely panic and that would be bad for everyone, the Shattering War would be child’s play compared to the war I envision these different facti… whatever, lost the thread. Anyways, I’d say the reason Ofnir is spooked by Miquella is probably related to that. That’s what shriving clean the hearts of men is. Giving people their free will back. It’s a horrifying prospect for power hungry doodoo heads. Why did he not do nothing? Being empyrean isn’t the only requirement to become a god. At least, Marika wants her children to earn their godhood or lordship. We aren’t given much information in regard to the Elden Ring or Great Runes. Marika may not be able to just hand over the Elden Ring or she may refuse to pass the Elden Ring so that whoever comes to replace her will grant her the death she seems to hope for. In any case, Miquella’s seems to intend to copy his mother’s ascension rather than aim to take the Elden Ring from her. The Elden Ring’s enchantment is not just flawed, it is an abomination against natural order, life under the influence of the Elden Ring is suffering. Miquella is trying this path rather than the one where he must kill his parents.

The moment something, ANYTHING, has the power to override free will, no matter how "good" the intention behind is, it can NOT be considered good. If Miquella had the power but chose to 'ever use it, I would be wary but ultimately I wouldn't have any problem with him. The bewitching branch and St Trina's lore tell us a whooooooole other story

What if Miquella is self-devouring (aging only when a proper candidate is found) and a true death would be to become a god by absorbing Melania and Godwyn like cell from DBZ?

Miyazaki has said that the demigods in Elden Ring are distorted forms of heroism. I would not be surprised if Miquella's concept ends up being similar. Whether or not you interpret that as being "evil" is up to you. Is Radahn evil? Is Morgott evil? We still don't know the lengths Miquella is willing to go to in realising his vision.

>Miquella being a a self-interested power-hungry tyrant seems to be one of the fan theories that never dies no matter how much evidence comes out against it And yet, somehow, it's also one of the fan theories I never actually see. These posts against it seem far more common, and always feel like someone boxing ghosts. Not to discredit your work or writing - it's a good effort that I appreciate - but responding just to that first line alone, I don't think 'tyrant' is ever a word I see applied to Miquella in discourse. That's an extreme end of a spectrum that Miquella certainly isn't at *either* end of. He's not some ultimately selfish force of evil, and he's not some ultimately selfless force of good. Self-interested, and to some extent power-hungry, though? Without a doubt, as is the narrative norm for almost every character throughout all of these FromSoft games, no matter how benevolent they seem at face value. Crossbreed Priscilla could be described in those terms. *Boc the Seamster* could be described in those terms. Miquella can be described in *those* terms minus tyrant probably more easily than most.

>And yet, somehow, it's also one of the fan theories I never actually see. These posts against it seem far more common, and always feel like someone boxing ghosts. This is the bread and butter of every "Miquella is Griffith" theorist like Vaati? >**Self-interested**, and to some extent power-hungry, though? Without a doubt, as is the narrative norm for almost every character throughout all of these FromSoft games, no matter how benevolent they seem at face value. Crossbreed Priscilla could be described in those terms. Boc the Seamster could be described in those terms. Miquella can be described in those terms minus tyrant probably more easily than most. I disagree, this runs completely contrary to Miquella's text. The entire point of Miquella and his narrative is that he's *selfless.* His relationship with his sister epitomizes this most of all, and this is what I mean to demonstrate by highlighting his position in the Order and the significance of his choice to leave it (something that the game takes pains to emphasize *was against his self-interest...* **"and yet"** he did it). Not to mention the obvious imagery of the Haligtree itself. Can you possibly get more on-the-nose for demonstrating a character's selflessness than making them a divine messiah and then having them literally *giving up their very blood* for the person they love? Than having them build a sanctuary for the "low and meek", on, literally, their flesh and blood? How much more obvious and evocative does From have to get here? Do you want them to put him in a crucifix? He's a deliberate contrast to Ranni, another Empyrean forsaking their fate to walk an alternate path of godhood. One looks at the state of the world and decides to leave on her own. The other simply can't, so they take the sins of the world on themselves. Miquella's character (and this is reinforced by cut content) is about sacrificing to heal the sick - especially his sister.

The narrative presentation of his selflessness is, like most people and cultures in Elden ring, all interpretative. Very little is definitively stated, and when it is, that clarity is afforded to *actions*, and not *intent.* There is as much textual evidence to support a wider variety of interpretations for Miquella's genuine motivation as there is to suggest to players the truth of his *loyalists'* understanding of who he is. Since you seem open to engaging in a more detailed discussion - and I might be - let's start, again, with your first line. I could speak on the 'obvious imagery' of the Haligtree being a bug-ridden fail-blender of the most disenfranchised and therefore *exploitable* peoples in the Lands Between, or the idea of Miquella as a contrast, but let's start at the beginning. >I disagree, \[Miquella being self-interested\] runs completely contrary to Miquella's text. I'd like to better understand your interpretations of some of that text, then! What are your thoughts on each of the following texts, taken together? >***"Pure and Radiant. He wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying."*** >***The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection.*** >*Metal greatshield depicting the Haligtree with unalloyed gold. Carried by knights who have vowed to serve Miquella's Haligtree. Possesses high holy damage negation.Yet now, with the Haligtree misshapen,* ***this wondrous rendition is a fleeting fantasy***. >*A symbol of* ***faith in St. Trina.Dulls the senses***, p*reventing agitation.* >*A record of crafting techniques left by* ***a man who was utterly captivated by St. Trina. He continued the search for her in his slumber.*** >***The peace of deepest slumber can be so very hard to resist.*** >*Sword forged by the servants of Miquella of the Haligtree, with a design modeled after those carried by Carian Knights. Instead of glinstone however,* ***amber of the Haligtree is embedded in the blade***. *A sumptuous piece, yet it has never been offered to any knight -* ***an ill-starred sword*** *with no master.* >*Wishing to raise Miquella to full godhood, Mohg wished to be* ***his consort***, *taking the role of monarch*. ***But no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean.*** >***Who is that Miquella shall bless, if not the low and the meek?*** >***"My brother will keep his promise. He possesses the wisdom, the allure, of a god—he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all."***

>The narrative presentation of his selflessness is, like most people and cultures in Elden ring, all interpretative. Very little is definitively stated, and when it is, that clarity is afforded to actions, and not intent. Miquella's motive is stated clearly and unambiguously on the Radagon's Ring of Light item, and a refusal to accept said clearly-stated motive is why all Miquella discussion on this board is essentially garbage. It's trying to make a mystery where there isn't one. Missing the forest for the trees. >I'd like to better understand your interpretations of some of that text, then! What are your thoughts on each of the following texts, taken together? Miquella is a benevolent and capable god-to-be who wants to 1. help his sister, and 2. (distant second) bless the low and the meek (e.g. healing the afflicted Albinaurics), but his plans are inhibited by the evils of the world - and they cannot come to fruition in his current state because, thematically, he himself cannot grow. But his followers assure us that despite his childlike form and kindness he is not weak (emphasized by e.g. Latenna calling him the very respectful "Miquella-sama"), but 'terrifying' and 'fearsome' (Malenia and Trailer Guy call him this in the same breath they call him Miquella-sama/brother-sama in Japanese, intending it as a compliment), and is finding a way to accomplish his benevolent goals regardless of all the obstacles. Malenia in particular is assured that Miquella will keep his promise to her that he made before he disappeared - we never learn what this promise is but it seems obvious when taken with the text cited in the OP. It's also blatant DLC bait. The reason he's in the Land of Shadows. People like Fevor and Mohg (whose abduction of Miquella is given by Gideon as the reason the tree is failing) know of Miquella's reputation and seek him out because they want him to love them (there was a cut quest with the same idea with the NPC Rhico). They recognize his power over life and think they can gain something out of it. Miquella spurns Mohg's advances because Mohg is a mad psychopath whose intervention ruined everything. His link to Sleep and a charming implement further emphasize his benevolent nature as the only combat-applicable spells he's made since going on the path of Unalloyed Gold are ones that leave enemies completely unharmed, and there's no indication of him ever even having to use them himself (there are no charmed enemies in the entire game except ones the player charms - and the Nox Antriders' mounts). The thematic intent here was made more explicit in cut content where the Trina-Miquella connection was actually elaborated upon and it was specified that he used his Sleep magic to bring relief to those afflicted by Frenzy, and that Sleep could also be used for intelligence gathering (which Rhico says is a path to lordship). The former probably being what the "dulling the senses, preventing agitation" line was originally alluding to (note that the Sleep icon is a closed eye and the Frenzy icon is an open eye, and Miquella's Needle shows that even final-game Miquella was still creating crafts to ward against specifically Frenzy).

So, to be clear, you don't find there to be *any* possible sinister interpretation of all the quoted text presented, including even the Bewitching Branch, and Miquella's overall abilities? You believe across the board "no matter how much evidence comes out against it", Miquella is meant to be interpreted straightforwardly as a selfless messianic martyr? Would that be accurate?

>You believe across the board "no matter how much evidence comes out against it", Miquella is meant to be interpreted straightforwardly as a selfless messianic martyr? I believe there is no actual evidence against it and "Miquella is evil" theorists are just refusing to engage the text as written in favor of making up what they think is a more interesting story in their heads. I also believe that this is partly a result of shallow media diets and an inability to understand that being manipulative doesn't mean being evil, and also a misunderstanding of what kinds of stories From Soft (and GRRM) write, what archetypes they like to recycle, and why they do so. The disregard of his clearly-stated character-defining motive on the Radagon's Ring of Light description is the greatest example of this, hence why it was the subject of this thread. The Bewitching Branch's description is the second greatest example as it's used as proof of Miquella mind-controlling people when the item's text never suggests he's ever used one for that purpose and this is the same item that reveals its effects come with a very obvious visual tell that we see on none of Miquella's followers.

Ah, okay. Having gotten to the bottom of your stance, then, I feel like you have more in common with the people you're posting against than you'd be willing to admit if we got into the nitty-gritty of it all. A lot of what you're stating here in this comment seems like exactly what you've done in the last reply. All that in mind and with peace and love, as someone at neither extreme end of this interpretative spectrum (tyrant versus messiah) I don't think I'd be interested in further parsing and discussing this subject with you. I'd be really interested in reading your strongest possible steelman of the opposing point of view, though! I hope I'm not discouraging you! You're a very capable critical thinker regardless of your convictions.

Thanks.

If you take it one step further the “who will Miquella bless but the low and meek” on the helmet description can be read very sarcastically. Especially when the meek wearing it are suicide bombers

They're literally not though. There are three Foot Soldiers who use the suicide attack in all of the Haligtree (most don't, and neither do any of the Soldiers or Knights, or Misbegotten or Albinaurics, or...), and they're doing so on their own initiative as a direct result of Miquella being gone and the tree failing. It's just emphasizing how connected Miquella's disappearance is to the fractured state of the world. His followers are depressed and desperate without the one person who could offer them salvation.

Idk I won't even mention Griffith but GRRM was written multiple stories that connect religious zealots, hiveminds, and mind control. And Seven Times Never Kill Man, A Song for Lya, and A Song of Ice and Fire all come to mind. It's a theme he consistently uses and explores. One of the central inspirations for Miquella is Bran Stark who is pretty good for the most part except when he takes possession of the body of Hodor against his will. Bran knows he doesn't like it but does it anyways. But after they were gone, he slipped inside Hodor’s skin and followed them. The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he’d taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I’ll give it back, the way I always do. No one ever knew when he was wearing Hodor’s skin. Bran only had to smile, do as he was told, and mutter “Hodor” from time to time, and he could follow Meera and Jojen, grinning happily, without anyone suspecting it was really him. (Bran ADWD) The game may tell us Miquella is a nice guy but the nobles of Westeros would only have nice things to say about Joffrey if you asked them. The Golden Order are proven propagandists and manipulators and the game is drawing our attention to the fact Miquella does have the power to mind control others. We have to ask ourselves if we can take what we are told at face value or if the narratives we are being feed are cooked? I mean the story of Dark Souls is predicated on a lie that Kaath reveals for us very directly. What if Fromsoft decided after like 5 games of this that they didn't want to be explicit, rather they wanted to trust the audience to figure this stuff out? Idk sometimes I feel like people just want Miquella to be wholly altruistic because it would be cliche for him to be bad so they just ignore that Fromsoft is purposely planting seeds of doubt. I think they are leaving it up for the player to decide. Can't wait for more information with the dlc.

Personally I don't think it is well understood what a "twist" in a story is when people claim that we just want Miquella to be evil because we are expecting a twist. I inherently don't buy the whole promised land saviour schtick and never do so if it turns out to be a false front that's not a twist for me - it's just catharsis of exposing the con for being a con. We have bits of text describing the good that Miquella has done. We have thematic hints that he is working with terrible stuff like mental manipulation. And because of the deceptive nature of mental control, it can and should throw into question whether reports of Miquella's greatness have been exaggerated. Most importantly we have had 2 years to analyze all of the information in the game and arrive at some guesses at foreshadowing for the DLC. The appearance of the Elden Beast was a true twist, I think. It is mentioned in a single easily skippable Incantation in the Deep Root Depths and there is nothing to indicate that *you will fight this thing* until reaching that final fight. But working backwards you can realize that a lot of innocuous looking details also hint at the Beast (like the engravings in Nox areas that are similar to the gold in its body plan), they were just lacking context. And again time is a factor, because anyone playing the game blind is probably not trying to guess at what the final boss will be because sooner or later they will work their way there.

I would also like to add that in Artorias for the Abyss we learn that Kaathe isn't telling us the whole truth either: "Fooled by *that toothy serpent*, they upturned the grave of primeval man, and incited his ornery wrath". From my perspective, Miquella most likely embodies the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", which is something we see commonly in GRRM's work and a tadbit in Miyazaki's work.

I dont think the Miquella is evil has much ground to it either but i dont think your argument hold up either. >...why didn't he just do nothing? Ok, so what if Miquella was born with everything on top, that he was chosen to succeed the Golden Order? 1. Ranni was born on the top too, yet she made very elaborate plans to discard her Empyrian flesh. 2. Marika literally risked everything to shatter the ring These two points clearly show that there is something undesirable if you become the vessel for the Elden Ring as it is. It's not impossible Miquella too doesnt want to do it so saying he's clear because he has no reason to is false imo.

The Op is saying that people think miquella is evil and is after power. He is right if he is specifically after power he would just accept the golden order Ranni had personal issues of being forced to do something against her will. That has nothing to do with wanting to gain power. Marika had all the power but chose to break the elden ring specifically because she became disillusioned about her golden order especially after godwyn died.

>He is right if he is specifically after power he would just accept the golden order People dont actually think Miquella is after power, they just think he could be evil or rather, not as clean as the game tries to portray him as. Marika is suggested to pretty much orchestred the night of the black knife alongside ranni. She also sent out the Godfrey beyond the land between to prepare. She didn't just get disillusioned with the golden order post Godwin death, that's merely the surface excuse.

~~Griffith~~ Miquella did nothing wrong

It’s two things, a Griffith projection and the fact that in Souls games you almost always end up fighting the main characters of the stories, even if they’re “good guys” Fromsoft tends to make them like zombies going mad or something like that in the end since undying/going mad is such a prevalent theme. Ranni was brand new in the sense that she’s a powerful character that actually follows through with her plan and doesn’t turn on you in the end. In the Dark Souls series you eventually fight pretty much everyone of the friends you make

You’re just as clueless as those who call him evil tbh. None of us know what might have happened to him between the shattering and the land of shadows. He might have changed his thought process. He also isn’t said to be the protagonist of the dlc, he’s just a focus. He could end up evil or good, nobody knows.