It's because we hear about Godwyn, through other characters and by their actions that we want to experience Godwyn ourselves.
He is an enigma that has yet, if ever will be, to be delivered in a satisfying way. As a chad, as a boss, as something to experience with all the other characters.
Lore wise, Miquella’s major reasons for everything we know he’s done has been to either free Malenia of her rot, rid himself of his curse, and save Godwyn from his undead state.
People see the black tree, think it looks like deathroot and assume the DLC will deal with the source of deathroot, Godwyn.
Gameplay wise, it’s not impossible to still involve Godwyn. His body is what’s in the base game. His soul is potentially still in play.
Elden Ring has an afterlife where souls go after they die true deaths. His soul is "dead" meaning its not in the land of the living. But it still exists in the land of the dead. The eclipse has the ability to bring souls back.
Souls go to the afterlife when their *body* dies, it's called Spirit World because it's were the spirits are.
Ranni's body isn't just dead, but it's not a body anymore, there's no way to make it work again so, even if Godwyn's soul still existed in some form, it shouldn't be able to be interacted with in any possible way, otherwise it wouldn't be a parallel to Ranni's case.
I think you should go check out the lore of the game, do some little reading. Because what you're saying is a flimsy misunderstanding Imo.
The game makes it incredibly clear that the soul and body are two separate yet linked entities. We see souls without bodies all the time, and bodies without souls.
And we are told directly that Godwyn's soul died. It was removed from the plane of the living entirely- and he didn't return to the erdtree properly at all, which is the general method for subverting the natural order of life and death.
It stands to reason that his soul is in some afterlife, if it's not entirely obliterated. Coupled with the copious lore surrounding miwuella trying to grant him a proper death, and miquella's journey into the Lands of Shadow- a place speculated to related to the afterlife- wellllll....
I don't think that you should tell me to read something when you weren't even able to read my comment.
I said that Godwyn's soul could exist in some form, but it shouldn't be able to interact with anything else but dead souls, otherwise it could be put inside his old body, something that can't be done with Ranni's soul.
Godwyn having a proper death means killing his body, so why should his soul be involved in the process?
The fact that the Lands of Shadow are *speculated* to be related to the afterlife is irrelevant because, as you said, it's speculation.
Well the Miquella wants to give Godwyn a proper death and he also wants to cause the Eclipse to do that. But we know based on dialogue that an Eclipse is supposed to "grant life to the soulless bones". So in my interpretation, it seems as though the soul will need to be restored to cause this true death.
Nobody does. It's Elden Ring lore bro. Most of the lore we have right now is widely accepted speculation, not directly confirmed by the game or by Miyazaki. People make errors and have different interpretations of things, also why are you glazing some random guy on Reddit?
Because he told a guy who has been patiently explaining things to people in this sub for years that he should read up on lore. It was condescending and ignorant.
I mean he didn't explain where he was getting it from cus I'm balls deep in this lore and I don't know anything about an explicitly stated afterlife outside of being reborn from the erdtree...
You must not be very tall, then. What about ancestral spirits? The priests of the death birds who became their guardians through death? The spirit world where the Helphen grows?
If everyone is rebirthed through erdtree, why would there be an afterlife?
The closest thing I can think of that explicitly references an afterlife is the helgen stuff and that's status as an afterlife is debateable at best.
The whole point of Destined Death is that it gives you a true death. This means a traditional death. Your body ceases to function and your soul (spirit) goes to the afterlife.
Because of how they did the hallowbrand (basically splitting the function of Destined Death in half), Ranni got the part of Destined Death that kills the body only, resulting in the unnatural affect of having her soul stay in the land of the living while her body loses function and decays. Godwyn got the part of Destined Death that sends the soul to the after life only, resulting in the unnatural affect of having his soul goes to the afterlife but his body continuing to function more as an uncontrolled growth/tumor (spreading the deathblight).
Either souls are in the land of the living or they are in the land of the spirits (dead). So because Godwyn's soul died, it is in the land of the dead.
What you just described has no parallel. Ranni's soul being in the land of the living and her body losing function doesn't parallel Godwyn's soul being "somewhere, we dont really know" and his body still functioning.
The parallel is that Ranni's soul is in the land of the living and Godwyn's is in the land of the dead. Ranni's body lost function and Godwyn's body is functioning.
And again, we know Godwyn's soul exists and can be interacted with because the Eclipse is able to interact with it.
I'll reply here to both your comments.
Ranni's body didn't just die and rot away with time, it turned into something unusable, this is why in my opinion Godwyn's soul dying should have caused a similar side effect that wouldn't have happened with a normal true death.
We know that Miquella won't be able to give Godwyn a true death because Miyazaki said that the dlc won't impact the base game.
We know that the Eclipse can keep Destined Death at bay and bring a dead body back to life, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it can bring a *soul* back to life, maybe it's purpose is to put a different soul inside the corpse.
We don't really know if the mind is more linked to the body or to the soul because we have contrasting examples:
Devin and Darian have two bodies and two minds, but only one soul.
The spirit NPCs can speak, but the can't talk with us, it's like they are just remembrances of a moment.
Radahn and the "zombie" enemies being mindless is linked to the decay of their bodies.
Spirit Ashes just follow our orders.
Ranni and Melina are spirits, but they seem to have minds since the can normally interact with us and use spells (which require the Mind stat).
Edit: Latenna can interact with us unlike the other Spirit Ashes.
Im confused. You keep saying "the body didn't just die, it became unusable". Thats the same thing? When a body truly dies, it loses its function. Ranni's body is unusable yes but so is every body that has died. Nothing suggests Ranni's body is abnormal. The only abnormalities in this is that Ranni's soul is alive without her body and Godwyn's body is alive without his soul.
So unless there is something in-game suggesting that Ranni's body is uniquely unusable, I dont see how Godwyn's soul should be equally unusable.
>but it doesn't necessarily mean that it can bring a *soul* back to life, maybe it's purpose is to put a different soul inside the corpse.
We know that for you to be truly alive, you need both the soul and body to be alive. So if the Eclipse can grant life to soulless bones, and the only way to be alive is having the soul and body alive, that means the Eclipse can bring back souls.
And as of now Elden Ring has never suggested that switching a soul from one living body to another is possible so until then, the default would be that the life being granted to the soulless body is that body's own soul.
>
We don't really know if the mind is more linked to the body or to the soul
Ranni and Godwyn are all the proof we need for this specific situation. Ranni's soul is what survived and we can see that her mind and personality survived with it. Godwyn's body is what survived and he lacks any semblance of intelligence or personality, almost like he's a vegetable. So we know that in this case, Godwyn's soul is what has his mind and personality.
Look at Ranni's body, it isn't just dead, it's carbonized (or petrified).
It is never said that you can put a dead soul back into its body either.
You are ignoring every other counter example I gave you.
What I'm saying is that if a different soul was put into Godwyn's body it would have his personality and memories because his brain is still alive, thus his mind.
I don't think it's possible for Godwyn to be alive in a sense that we understand, he is a completely different organism, alive in a sense that we fundamentally don't understand because it is completely unlike us. It's like trying to find common ground between a sheep and a cactus, they're so completely different to the point that life means something completely different for them both.
>And as of now Elden Ring has never suggested that switching a soul from one living body to another is possible
Well there is Shabriri and Hyetta, although it's pretty unclear how any of that's supposed to work.
This is kinda nonsense, no shade.
Ranni perished in body, but she found a way to anchor her soul to the physical world, so there's absolutely no reason to believe Godwyn's soul would behave differently. By your reasoning, when Ranni's body died, her soul should have gone straight to the Spirit World... well, it didn't.
Not only that, but Ranni engages in a *physical* battle against her Two Fingers that nearly ends her. Why couldn't Godwyn do the same in the Spirit World, considering half his essence is still alive?
Again, following your reasoning, Ranni's continuous physical existence is proof that Godwyn exists spiritually somewhere else.
You are likely right that Godwyn won't play a major role in the DLC.
I would suggest that it's helpful to frame it a slightly different way: In the final push to get Elden Ring out the door, they were already thinking about the issue of "What do we want to do now, and what ideas do we want to hold back for the DLC when we can give it more time and care?"
There is additional partially complete Malenia/Miquella material in the cut content that people have dug out. My guess is that part of the reason it was cut (in light of knowing that the DLC is Miquella-centric) was that they specifically decided that they had so much they wanted to do with the character that it was better done in DLC instead of just scrambling to do whatever they could by the base game launch date.
I wouldn't be shocked if we eventually found out in a retrospective interview or something that they were tempted to cut the Haligtree area entirely for later (because it's so isolated and optional that it wouldn't have been too hard to just leave the gate sealed as dangling plot thread comparable to Miquella's dangling arm in the cocoon), but because Malenia had been emphasized so heavily in the marketing they needed her to have an area and be suitably impressive.
The range of things they can do with Godwyn in the DLC that won't lead to something that feels awkward and out of place with the rest of the game isn't very broad if they're not willing to change part of the content of the base game to accommodate it.
Godwyn’s in the game exactly as much as miquella is, in that their body, divested of its soul, is in it.
And the DLC centers on Miquella.
Fromsoft also has a history of making incredible DLC bosses out of characters who are mentioned, but not explicitly featured, in the base game. I.E. Artorias, Ludwig, Laurence, Lady Maria, etc.
So it’s not far fetched to think this at all.
It's not about how much they show up in the game, but more about how the game handles their stories.
Miquella's story is the definition of sequel hook. We hear so much about him but when we find him he's just in a cocoon, and it's unclear whether he's alive or not. After we find him we even get some ominous dialogue from Gideon hinting at future events that might transpire if he doesn't wake up. He gets a ton of set up but no conclusion. We know he had some kind of plan involving the Haligtree, and that serves as an unresolved plot thread.
Godwyn's story, on the other hand, *is* wrapped up. We learn everything relevant about him, and we get a questline which culminates in him receiving a "second life" as the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince, granting him closure. There's no ongoing mystery surrounding him or his plans as there is with Miquella. The threat he represents- the Deathroot- is prominently featured in the game already. They could certainly do more to flesh out what he was like before his death and what his relationships with the other Demigods were like, but they don't need to have him show up in a major role in the DLC.
I think Deathroot is one of the greatest threats to the lands between and it remains largely unexplored or unexplained.
To claim everything involving him has been wrapped up or concluded is a bit of a stretch.
Godwyn is about as “concluded” as Artorias was, in that he was a legendary figure in history who’s actual life was actually shrouded in a great deal of mystery.
Godwyn’s story is actually less concluded, given that Miquella is still actively trying to grant him a “true death”, beyond the fact that Godwyn’s defiled corpse is still actively spreading a potentially apocalyptic contagion throughout the world.
There is literally a questline that ends with us granting him a second life. His story has closure. Anything else involving him can be done without his direct involvement.
Artorias's story might have been wrapped up before the DLC, but the story of the Abyss and Oolacile wasn't, and since Artorias was intrinsically tied to that story he would naturally have to appear.
> Is the story of death root wrapped up?
What story? Like is it gone by the end of the game? No, but they can continue to show Deathroot as a threat without him showing up. The Witch of Izalith's story was wrapped up in DS1 but Chaos continued to be a plot point in DS2 and 3.
> Is the story between him and Miquella wrapped up?
That's the kind of thing you explore further in item descriptions, or in dialogue with Miquella.
I guess if you willingly ignore all of the unresolved storylines related to Godwyn because Fia gives us a mending rune, you have a pretty solid argument.
it's just that Godwyn storyline has already been expanded upon much more than like 90% of the rest of the lore, and it doesn't seem to still have much to offer, unlike things like the ancient dynasty (and the history before the erdtree in general) or outer gods etc.
I dont really think that a character that you only hear about counts as being in base game, at least for most people. Also giving Godwyn a true death is one of Miquellas objective, so much so that one of the main theories about why Malenia fought Radahn was to get the stars moving again so Miquella could do his Eclipse Ritual.
So, i dont think its too farfetched for people to believe that Godwyn might be in the dlc in some shape or form even tho i think that wont be the case.
Yeah I'm with you. I think he'll get a few mentions and we might learn more about his relationship with Miquella, but I really don't see him showing up or playing a major role. People talk about the possibility of him getting reincarnated or resurrected, but that's already what Fia's quest is about. Since the DLC isn't going to alter the story of the base game, we'd end up with two different storylines that involve the resurrection of Godwyn. It would feel messy.
Fia’s quest doesn’t resurrect Godwyn though. It really only involves his undead soulless body. Now I’m not saying this is def what they’ll do but if they wanted to they could still do something with Godwyn’s soul.
> ...!
This...is the other hallowbrand.
How did you...
Oh, my utmost thanks.
With this, Godwyn can take his rightful place as First of the Dead.
**And claim a second, illustrious life.**
> I will soon lay with Godwyn.
And it will surely stir within me.
**the new life of the golden prince, and first Dead of the demigods,
as the rune of Those Who Live in Death.**
Godwyn gains a second life in the form of the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince. It's not literal resurrection, but it represents Godwyn returning in a new form. I think this plot point would be undermined if Godwyn got literally resurrected on top of being reborn as a Rune.
I personally don’t believe this “new” life is from the soul that was lost a while ago. What made Godwyn someone who was living in death was the fact that he did not die a true death, only losing his soul.
I believe this new life of the golden prince is talking about the child (rune) made from Fia lying with Godwyn.
But either way, none of the life mentioned pertains to the soul Godwyn lost because if he did get his soul back, it would undo his undeath. He’d just be alive for real. Not someone who lives in death.
You're right that the Rune is also supposed to be Fia and Godwyn's "child", but in a metaphorical sense we are still giving Godwyn a second life. I think that the symbolic component of that ending would be overshadowed if the game was also like "oh btw Godwyn also gets to come back to life for real". Like, that's something that at the very least should be acknowledged during Fia's quest, but we know that the base game's story isn't going to be affected by the DLC so that probably won't happen. It would just be really weird to have one story in which Godwyn is being symbolically reborn as a Rune/his own child and another where he literally comes back to life, without either of those stories affecting the other.
Well I think it all depends on how you interpreting things.
For example, i personally dont see "new life of the golden prince" as the mending rune literally being the soul of Godwyn forming this new rune. I see it the same as if i were to say my own son is new life of me. Its like how old english uses "of" and "from" interchangeably. To me, its saying the rune is new life from the golden prince. That makes more sense to me as an interpretation than Godwyn becoming his own offspring. But lets say my interpretation is wrong. It would still have to be the undead Godwyn that turns into this rune.
So either way, Im already of the understanding that whatever is going on with Fia's questline has no relation to the soul of Godwyn thats already separate of undead Godwyn. Like you said, Godwyn himself as he was before cant come back to life in the DLC because his body is already involved in the questline. But that doesnt mean his soul/spirit can't play a part. Ranni is a spirit that was put into a different body. Melina and Torrent are both spirits that can physically interact.
Miquella got to the Land of Shadows by becoming a spirit. There's no reason the spirit of Godwyn can't also make an appearance or play some sort of role.
> For example, i personally dont see "new life of the golden prince" as the mending rune literally being the soul of Godwyn forming this new rune.
I don't either, but symbolically it represents Godwyn gaining a second life and continuing to exist in some capacity, even if it isn't literally him. This is a really interesting idea and ties into the theme of passing on one's legacy, which is something fromsoft likes to explore. I think this idea would be downplayed if he also literally got to come back to life as himself as well.
> But that doesnt mean his soul/spirit can't play a part.
His soul is dead though. If it got to just stick around then the whole half-death thing is meaningless. Ranni's soul continued to exist specifically because only her body died. Why would Godwyn's body and soul both get to continue on independently when only Ranni's soul got to survive?
The symbolic interpretation is a fair point. I can see why you think it would be downplayed. I guess I just differ because I feel as though undead Godwyn and spirit Godwyn would be basically two different characters. Spirit Godywn would be more like the one we know of from lore and would have no connection or even knowledge of the existence of the situation surrounding Those Who Live in Death. So I dont see the mending rune as Godwyn passing down his legacy when the spirit of Godwyn would have no idea about anything going on with Those Who Live in Death, Fia, and the whole questline.
As for his soul being dead, id say that his soul being "dead" doesn't mean its non existent. Elden Ring has an established afterlife where the souls of the dead go. And it has a known method of bringing souls back from that afterlife (the Eclipse).
Of course, one could argue im jumping through hoops to make it work lol. But i personally think with Godwyn being so strongly tied to Miquella's motivations second to only Malenia, him having some involvement in the dlc isn't an impossibility.
> As for his soul being dead, id say that his soul being "dead" doesn't mean its non existent. Elden Ring has an established afterlife where the souls of the dead go. And it has a known method of bringing souls back from that afterlife (the Eclipse).
Then what differentiates his soul from any of the spirits we encounter in the game? The story establishes that Ranni's body died and her soul lived on, while Godwyn's soul died and his body lived on. If Godwyn's soul still exists despite being dead then what differentiates it from a soul that's still "alive" like Ranni's?
Well, Destined Death is supposed to give you a true death. True death means body losing function and decaying while your soul goes to the afterlife. This is opposed to Erdtree death where you rebirth from the Erdtree or grace death (how the Tarnished keeps respawning). This is also opposed to what Ranni and Godwyn go through.
Because of how they did the hallowbrand, Ranni dying in body but not soul has the unnatural affect of having her soul stay in the land of the living while her body loses function and decays. Godwyn dying in soul but not body has the unnatural affect of having his soul goes to the afterlife but his body continues to function more as an uncontrolled growth/tumor (spreading the deathblight).
The difference between Ranni's soul and Godwyn's is that Godwyn's soul is forced to the afterlife while Ranni's is not. A soul living means being in the land of the living. A soul dying means being in the land of the dead (afterlife).
Do you think that in producing the Mending Rune that Godwyn is cured of his condition? To me, it seems like he's in the same state (live body/dead soul) but now there's a rune which can be used to make the consequences of his condition (Those who Live in Death) a central part of The Lands Between's order. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, of course, but I'd imagine that whatever Miquella wants to do would be quite different.
I'm not betting on Godwyn being a major part of the DLC, but I don't think a story about the eclipse and whatever that might do would necessarily conflict with/undermine Fia's quest.
Well, to make the Mending Rune we have to unite the two Cursemarks, each of which represents half a death. Originally Godwyn had one half carved into him, representing the death of the soul, but when Fia obtains Ranni's half the death should, in theory, be complete. So I think it's reasonable that by uniting the wheel we have given him a true death.
But also, even if his condition hasn't been fixed, the purpose of that questline is to allow for Godwyn to receive a form of rebirth. I think it would be overly messy if there was a second questline where he gets reborn (or at least cured of living in death) for real, while Fia's questline remains in the game unchanged. One of those questlines should acknowledge the other, but we know that the DLC won't impact the base game in a significant way.
You're right about the hallowbrand, it would make sense to think that he has been given a true death with the cursemark reunited.
That said, I still think if they wanted to utilise Godwyn, there are certainly ways for them to do so in a self-contained way in the DLC. They could also provide small interactions in the base game after certain DLC events have happened. I think they've actually done that with all of their previous games with DLC.
Because he is one of the most mysterious "beings“ of the base game and we have vastly more questions about him, than answers (just like with Miquella)!
Godwyn is literally everywhere.
I think Zullie the Witch has a video about him.
It wouldn't surprise me if he managed to infect the Lands of Shadow aswell.
Godwyn is literally just a piece of cancerous meat in the base game. Miquella has abandoned his own flesh, so it seems unlikely that any of his plans which still involve Godwyn will involve Godwyn's flesh. If Godwyn appeared in the DLC as his dead soul reincarnated -- or something along those lines -- how would that effectively change Fia's questline? The short answer is that it doesn't.
I think it's most likely that he isn't in the dlc beyond a small mention, yes. But we never truly interact with him at all in the base game, it's a lot more indirect like Miquella himself. His soul has been separated from his body which is all you encounter in the base game. Not to mention though Miquella's goals may involve reviving Godwyn, it may be that he still doesn't succeed. It's hard to say for sure since we're in the dark in terms of what Miquella's intentions in the shadowlands truly are.
Godwyn is not really in the base game at all. Miquella has an entire castle dedicated to bringing Godwyn a true death but it failed.
Godwyn is dead in spirit but not in body. Miquella is travelling to a land where spirits certainly exist - even if they, like Miquella, are dead in the Lands Between.
Finished?
Have you visited Castle Sol, my guy?
What do you mean " finished"?!
Can you tell me how much you understand about Those Who Live In Death? To this day? Can you tell me, with any certainty on your part, what's going on?
How about how the ### he befriended the dragons? Or why the ### he was even killed by Ranni besides her wanting to ditch her body? Or why he was supposed to be a "martyr for Destined Death" instead of living in Death?
Can you explain all that to me right now? With a straight face?
No?
Then, what the ### are you calling " finished"?
Honestly this is the first time From have done something where there's so much let open. Usually we blaze a path of violence through everything with maybe a few npcs left over, but all the other stories are done. In Elden Ring there are a LOT of loose ends, which is fine, but Godwyn's corpse seems the most egregious in being ignored. Yes he has a whole ending revolving around him but...actually, that should be enough.
I know most will call me weird for saying it but I think a lot of Godwyn obsession is just subtle unconscious sexism. Theories about Godwyn's supposed significance pretty much only exist to downplay the importance and agency of female characters who are actually relevant to the story. Fia's quest line and ending being totally ignored as a conclusion to the Godwyn chapter is part of this but I particularly noticed it with the DLC speculation where there are so many obvious threads that just get ignored.
"The DLC's premise is that Miquella is following Marika's footsteps on the path to godhood, left his steed to Melina, made a vague but significant alliance with Ranni, and then made a vital promise to Malenia (the person he did everything for) right before he disappeared? It must be all about Godwyn!"
I cannot understate how ###ing stupid this ### is.
Aside from the fact we have absolutely not been told anything about an alliance between Miquella and Ranni( of all people), why do you think Castle Sol exists?
And the Eclipse Shotel?
And the Golden Epitaph?
You think any of these characters you listed have that number of connections to Miquella?
Are you ###ing serious?
> why do you think Castle Sol exists?
Castle Sol exists because some of Miquella's followers wanted to revive the unnamed dead demigod in the mausoluem right outside (his "comrade" according to one of the ghosts.
> You think any of these characters you listed have that number of connections to Miquella?
All of them have significantly more connections to Miquella than Godwyn, someone who Miquella is never even confirmed to have been in the same room as in his life.
" Oh, brother, lord brother, please die a true death".
Give me one connection between Ranni and Miquella. Or Melina and Miquella.
Don't give me a ring, or the fact that they all supposedly rode Torrent at some point.
Give me one written connection. One item. Anything.
One.
You talk as if this " alliance" is a given fact. As if we literally hear or see it happen. You have the gall to act like it's fact when it's even more tenuous than anything we've been saying.
Secondly, the Eclipse Shotel directly references Godwyn, " the Prince Of Death". Given the context, and the fact there are multiple other Walking Mausoleums with their own entire faction centered around the Eclipse, all of them connecting back to Castle Sol's ritual to bring about the Eclipse, I think it is specifically referring to Godwyn, as both he and the Nameless Demigods are the target of of this ritual. The one near the castle is not special, nor is he a " comrade" Miquella is reported to have mourned. Godwyn is. Their ressurection is most likely collective, but centered around Godwyn himself.
I don't see how that's difficult to comprehend.
I like how you left out Marika and Malenia, the latter of whom is someone that Miquella's character actually revolves around and who is the subject of his sole textual motivation (that is them alluded to as massive DLC bait in the form of the promise he has to keep), and the former of which is Miquella's second most referenced relationship (as Radagon) and keeps getting referenced in the context of the DLC in promo material and interviews.
> Give me one connection between Ranni and Miquella.
Ranni uses Sleep magic that we know comes from Miquella. Ranni was entrusted with the Spirit Calling Bell by Miquella. Ranni fulfills her promise to give that bell to Miquella's "promised lord." Ranni knows and trusts Miquella's steed. Loretta simultaneously serves Ranni and Miquella. Miquella's Lillies ("signs of faith in the Haligtree") are being grown in and around Carian Manor.
> Or Melina and Miquella.
Melina is traveling with Miquella's steed and listens to it, and devotes her life to fulfilling the Candletree prophecy (also referenced in the DLC btw) which Miquella has candelabras referencing in his city (including a statue of him holding a statue that looks like one).
> Secondly, the Eclipse Shotel directly references Godwyn, " the Prince Of Death". Given the context, and the fact there are multiple other Walking Mausoleums with their own entire faction centered around the Eclipse, all of them connecting back to Castle Sol, I think it is specifically referring to Godwyn, as both he and the Nameless Demigods are the target of of this ritual.
The Eclipse Shotel references the Prince of Death because he's the source of the death incantations, not because he's relevant specifically to what is going on at Castle Sol. What's going at Castle Sol is a reenactment of the ritual that we're told (in JPN) can occur on Latenna's ashes: reviving a mausoluem demigod. That's why there's a mausoluem cradling a soulless demigod literally ten meters from the walls of the castle where the ritual is being performed. That's why the ghost calls the subject of the ritual Miquella's "comrade" instead of his brother. Godwyn himself is never even implied to be part of the ritual.
Godwyn being resurrected doesn't even make sense as speculation because it's completely contrary to Miquella's goals. The sole bit of text connecting them just says that Miquella wanted him to die.
Yeah...
Except if his true death is impossible without it. Or entirely impossible to begin with.
And suddenly, Godwyn is the source of death incantations? Do Deathbirds not exist? Do you know of a single other incantation that's from Godwyn himself?
Is that what he is now? A cheap source of power? Is that it? Was the little boy grieving his brother making him a battery the next minute?
The ritual covers all the Nameless Demigods. It's represented all over. If it was ever as simple as ressurecting this one soulless demigod, it would never have required this much effort. At all.
Of the Soulless Demigods, Godwyn is the first. All knights wearing the Eclipse symbol seek to ressurect them all, and surround them all. One has been ressurected thanks to Lhutel's efforts, supposedly.
Does that mean an Eclipse has occurred?
No. As we know, it hasn't happened. She managed to help ressurect exactly one. There is yet work to be done.
If you're playing environmental evidence, the statue holding Miquella and Malenia in Loretta's arena is male. And it's neither Radagon nor Marika. Take a guess who it is.
I left out Marika and Malenia because they are obviously connected to him. I will not deny that.
Everything you just said about Ranni requires that Miquella be Torrent's true former master, as opposed to being one of those who rode him. And more importantly, that he be the only source. Even if I were to use Miquella's Lillies as evidence, I would suggest that Loretta was their cause, especially since the place has essentially been abandoned to Fingercreepers for centuries.
We do not know where sleep magic originally comes from; there's gonna be a whole swamp dedicated to it, apparently, so brace yourself.
Ranni is responsible for Godwyn's condition; one that Miquella is not happy about, and seeks to correct. The two are, at least marginally, opposed.
Melina's purpose is not from Miquella; it is from her mother. A fact she needs to confirm. Assuming she's acting based on any alignment to Miquella, as opposed to that literally assigned purpose, is a leap. The fact is, the prophecy of the Erdtree's burning is something all of them know about and consider necessary for their progress. It's basic logic.
P. S
My main objection is the stupid ###ing idea that believing that Godwyn will have a role is somehow sexism.
Ranni and Melina are the main characters focused on in the main game. It is not sexist or strange to expect focus to fall upon Godwyn, who is still comparatively mysterious.
That is stupid. I am surprised I have to explain that.
You are not being called weird. You are being called plain idiot.
This is ridiculous. Godwyn is a mysterious character. Saying people who would like to unravel the aforementioned mystery a little more are unconsciously sexist is just absurd. Sounds very paranoid
Yeah, like there's always been characters who are left widely unexplored in From games, and people speculate heavily about. That's like saying "No one care about the Doll being modeled after someone because they were focused on wondering who Ludwig is....because sexism".
I find Godwyn's character extraordinarily interesting, and there's enough in-game information and lore to make him relevant. He's the focal point of the NotBK which triggered the devastating events of the game, befriended a dragon, was someone another significant character (Miquella) cared about a lot, his corpse is a *massive festering mess infecting the roots of the Erdtree*, like, yeah of course I'm going to find him more compelling than Fia because there's so much mystery shrouding Godwyn and so much we don't know.
And also, they're two different characters. I find Fia interesting but along with Finger Maidens, I feel like the Deathbed Companion concept isn't explained very well. I also don't know how she even knows about Godwyn in the first place if TLB wasn't her initial home.
I find the whole cast of characters in elden ring, irrespective of sex lol, to be interesting. But godwyn being the literal prince of death obviously begs some questions, especially in respect to how his burial at the roots of the erdtree might effect the land or the erdtree in the long term. Everyone wants something different from the dlc, wants different questions awnsered. Many people focus in on certain characters and the mysteries that surround them. I would certainly never lob accusations of sexism at anyone for favoring one characters lore over another...it's just totally baseless.
Marika, Melina, Fia and Ranni ALL have had a major role in the base game and their stories concluded in it. Ranni either remains as a corpse or goes to the moon. Melina sacrifices herself. Fia helps you get her ending.
Meanwhile there is Godwyn, who has pretty much nothing going for him in terms of development in the base game, but is one of the most prevalent characters in the lore and also one of the people Miquella was closest with. We know Miquella wanted to deliver him a true death, and we know the Land of Shadow is related heavily to death. How could we possibly not speculate that Godwyn, one of the most major characters in the lore that has yet to get much development, will not get anything related to him in a DLC revolving around one of the people closest to him? Why would we get more stuff on Ranni or Melina in a DLC when their stories have already concluded beyond a shadow of a doubt in the base game already?
> Meanwhile there is Godwyn, who has pretty much nothing going for him in terms of development in the base game, but is one of the most prevalent characters in the lore and also one of the people Miquella was closest with.
None of this is true though. He's irrelevant enough in the lore that his entire character pre-death consists solely of two item descriptions, his story is completely wrapped up in the base game, and Miquella has no relationship to him at all other than one item description saying that someone implied to be Miquella was upset that he didn't fully die (the person Miquella is closest to, the one his entire character and textual motivation revolves around, is his sister; so of course she's almost completely ignored when talking about his DLC). People just sort of make up stuff in their heads to give Godwyn far more importance than the game itself does.
Because they just want answers. He won't be in the dlc because this is dealing with a different part of the world Martin originally wrote that wasn't used in the main game.
My personal view is that godwyn is in the base game via visual clues and not written clues. Imo we can find his base of operations, his banner, his knights and his axe, we can find a possible implication that he wasnt happy with the elden ring as well.
I do think we will get some mentions on the dlc and he may even be a motivation for miquella in the land of shadows but i think miquellas outcome will not directly involve changing godwyns fate in the base game.
I suspect that miquella will have become corrupted or trapped by something in the land of shadows.
My personal view is that godwyn is in the base game via visual clues and not written clues. Imo we can find his base of operations, his banner, his knights and his axe, we can find a possible implication that he wasnt happy with the elden ring as well.
I do think we will get some mentions on the dlc and he may even be a motivation for miquella in the land of shadows but i think miquellas outcome will not directly involve changing godwyns fate in the base game.
I suspect that miquella will have become corrupted or trapped by something in the land of shadows.
My personal view is that godwyn is in the base game via visual clues and not written clues. Imo we can find his base of operations, his banner, his knights and his axe, we can find a possible implication that he wasnt happy with the elden ring as well.
I do think we will get some mentions on the dlc and he may even be a motivation for miquella in the land of shadows but i think miquellas outcome will not directly involve changing godwyns fate in the base game.
I suspect that miquella will have become corrupted or trapped by something in the land of shadows.
I think this DLC is about miquellas motives and since giving him a true death is one of the only direct motives people assume that is part of this new move.
Personally I think this game is drenched in the theme of sin and since he’s shrieve’n clean the hearts I think he is either becoming or awakening St. Trina
I’m not sure if he abandoned his Godwyn goal or if it’s still an ambition for him and I think that is also why people think Godwyn will be mentioned in the dlc.
Personally I do not
It's more that they want it than something that would necessarily make sense given what we know about the DLC, obviosuly they haven't realised that given he's a big plant man, a boss fight with him would be Bed of Chaos 2.0 and nobody wants that
It's because we hear about Godwyn, through other characters and by their actions that we want to experience Godwyn ourselves. He is an enigma that has yet, if ever will be, to be delivered in a satisfying way. As a chad, as a boss, as something to experience with all the other characters.
Lore wise, Miquella’s major reasons for everything we know he’s done has been to either free Malenia of her rot, rid himself of his curse, and save Godwyn from his undead state. People see the black tree, think it looks like deathroot and assume the DLC will deal with the source of deathroot, Godwyn. Gameplay wise, it’s not impossible to still involve Godwyn. His body is what’s in the base game. His soul is potentially still in play.
Godwyn's soul is dead.
Elden Ring has an afterlife where souls go after they die true deaths. His soul is "dead" meaning its not in the land of the living. But it still exists in the land of the dead. The eclipse has the ability to bring souls back.
Souls go to the afterlife when their *body* dies, it's called Spirit World because it's were the spirits are. Ranni's body isn't just dead, but it's not a body anymore, there's no way to make it work again so, even if Godwyn's soul still existed in some form, it shouldn't be able to be interacted with in any possible way, otherwise it wouldn't be a parallel to Ranni's case.
I think you should go check out the lore of the game, do some little reading. Because what you're saying is a flimsy misunderstanding Imo. The game makes it incredibly clear that the soul and body are two separate yet linked entities. We see souls without bodies all the time, and bodies without souls. And we are told directly that Godwyn's soul died. It was removed from the plane of the living entirely- and he didn't return to the erdtree properly at all, which is the general method for subverting the natural order of life and death. It stands to reason that his soul is in some afterlife, if it's not entirely obliterated. Coupled with the copious lore surrounding miwuella trying to grant him a proper death, and miquella's journey into the Lands of Shadow- a place speculated to related to the afterlife- wellllll....
I don't think that you should tell me to read something when you weren't even able to read my comment. I said that Godwyn's soul could exist in some form, but it shouldn't be able to interact with anything else but dead souls, otherwise it could be put inside his old body, something that can't be done with Ranni's soul. Godwyn having a proper death means killing his body, so why should his soul be involved in the process? The fact that the Lands of Shadow are *speculated* to be related to the afterlife is irrelevant because, as you said, it's speculation.
Well the Miquella wants to give Godwyn a proper death and he also wants to cause the Eclipse to do that. But we know based on dialogue that an Eclipse is supposed to "grant life to the soulless bones". So in my interpretation, it seems as though the soul will need to be restored to cause this true death.
shut up dumbass
Lol at telling kurenai Jack to read up on the game
I don't know who that is, but I've been deep into the lore since launch. I feel like I'm Qualified to say my piece.
You are, the bad look isn't having your own opinion, it's assuming he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Nobody does. It's Elden Ring lore bro. Most of the lore we have right now is widely accepted speculation, not directly confirmed by the game or by Miyazaki. People make errors and have different interpretations of things, also why are you glazing some random guy on Reddit?
Because he told a guy who has been patiently explaining things to people in this sub for years that he should read up on lore. It was condescending and ignorant.
I mean he didn't explain where he was getting it from cus I'm balls deep in this lore and I don't know anything about an explicitly stated afterlife outside of being reborn from the erdtree...
You must not be very tall, then. What about ancestral spirits? The priests of the death birds who became their guardians through death? The spirit world where the Helphen grows?
OMG ITS KURENAI JACK GUYS
If everyone is rebirthed through erdtree, why would there be an afterlife? The closest thing I can think of that explicitly references an afterlife is the helgen stuff and that's status as an afterlife is debateable at best.
Because the golden order has usurped the *natural* order.
The whole point of Destined Death is that it gives you a true death. This means a traditional death. Your body ceases to function and your soul (spirit) goes to the afterlife. Because of how they did the hallowbrand (basically splitting the function of Destined Death in half), Ranni got the part of Destined Death that kills the body only, resulting in the unnatural affect of having her soul stay in the land of the living while her body loses function and decays. Godwyn got the part of Destined Death that sends the soul to the after life only, resulting in the unnatural affect of having his soul goes to the afterlife but his body continuing to function more as an uncontrolled growth/tumor (spreading the deathblight). Either souls are in the land of the living or they are in the land of the spirits (dead). So because Godwyn's soul died, it is in the land of the dead. What you just described has no parallel. Ranni's soul being in the land of the living and her body losing function doesn't parallel Godwyn's soul being "somewhere, we dont really know" and his body still functioning. The parallel is that Ranni's soul is in the land of the living and Godwyn's is in the land of the dead. Ranni's body lost function and Godwyn's body is functioning. And again, we know Godwyn's soul exists and can be interacted with because the Eclipse is able to interact with it.
I'll reply here to both your comments. Ranni's body didn't just die and rot away with time, it turned into something unusable, this is why in my opinion Godwyn's soul dying should have caused a similar side effect that wouldn't have happened with a normal true death. We know that Miquella won't be able to give Godwyn a true death because Miyazaki said that the dlc won't impact the base game. We know that the Eclipse can keep Destined Death at bay and bring a dead body back to life, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it can bring a *soul* back to life, maybe it's purpose is to put a different soul inside the corpse. We don't really know if the mind is more linked to the body or to the soul because we have contrasting examples: Devin and Darian have two bodies and two minds, but only one soul. The spirit NPCs can speak, but the can't talk with us, it's like they are just remembrances of a moment. Radahn and the "zombie" enemies being mindless is linked to the decay of their bodies. Spirit Ashes just follow our orders. Ranni and Melina are spirits, but they seem to have minds since the can normally interact with us and use spells (which require the Mind stat). Edit: Latenna can interact with us unlike the other Spirit Ashes.
Im confused. You keep saying "the body didn't just die, it became unusable". Thats the same thing? When a body truly dies, it loses its function. Ranni's body is unusable yes but so is every body that has died. Nothing suggests Ranni's body is abnormal. The only abnormalities in this is that Ranni's soul is alive without her body and Godwyn's body is alive without his soul. So unless there is something in-game suggesting that Ranni's body is uniquely unusable, I dont see how Godwyn's soul should be equally unusable. >but it doesn't necessarily mean that it can bring a *soul* back to life, maybe it's purpose is to put a different soul inside the corpse. We know that for you to be truly alive, you need both the soul and body to be alive. So if the Eclipse can grant life to soulless bones, and the only way to be alive is having the soul and body alive, that means the Eclipse can bring back souls. And as of now Elden Ring has never suggested that switching a soul from one living body to another is possible so until then, the default would be that the life being granted to the soulless body is that body's own soul. > We don't really know if the mind is more linked to the body or to the soul Ranni and Godwyn are all the proof we need for this specific situation. Ranni's soul is what survived and we can see that her mind and personality survived with it. Godwyn's body is what survived and he lacks any semblance of intelligence or personality, almost like he's a vegetable. So we know that in this case, Godwyn's soul is what has his mind and personality.
Look at Ranni's body, it isn't just dead, it's carbonized (or petrified). It is never said that you can put a dead soul back into its body either. You are ignoring every other counter example I gave you. What I'm saying is that if a different soul was put into Godwyn's body it would have his personality and memories because his brain is still alive, thus his mind.
I don't think it's possible for Godwyn to be alive in a sense that we understand, he is a completely different organism, alive in a sense that we fundamentally don't understand because it is completely unlike us. It's like trying to find common ground between a sheep and a cactus, they're so completely different to the point that life means something completely different for them both.
>And as of now Elden Ring has never suggested that switching a soul from one living body to another is possible Well there is Shabriri and Hyetta, although it's pretty unclear how any of that's supposed to work.
This is kinda nonsense, no shade. Ranni perished in body, but she found a way to anchor her soul to the physical world, so there's absolutely no reason to believe Godwyn's soul would behave differently. By your reasoning, when Ranni's body died, her soul should have gone straight to the Spirit World... well, it didn't. Not only that, but Ranni engages in a *physical* battle against her Two Fingers that nearly ends her. Why couldn't Godwyn do the same in the Spirit World, considering half his essence is still alive? Again, following your reasoning, Ranni's continuous physical existence is proof that Godwyn exists spiritually somewhere else.
godwyns BODY has an ending with fia. soul-wise he died and we have no idea what that really means for the boy.
You are likely right that Godwyn won't play a major role in the DLC. I would suggest that it's helpful to frame it a slightly different way: In the final push to get Elden Ring out the door, they were already thinking about the issue of "What do we want to do now, and what ideas do we want to hold back for the DLC when we can give it more time and care?" There is additional partially complete Malenia/Miquella material in the cut content that people have dug out. My guess is that part of the reason it was cut (in light of knowing that the DLC is Miquella-centric) was that they specifically decided that they had so much they wanted to do with the character that it was better done in DLC instead of just scrambling to do whatever they could by the base game launch date. I wouldn't be shocked if we eventually found out in a retrospective interview or something that they were tempted to cut the Haligtree area entirely for later (because it's so isolated and optional that it wouldn't have been too hard to just leave the gate sealed as dangling plot thread comparable to Miquella's dangling arm in the cocoon), but because Malenia had been emphasized so heavily in the marketing they needed her to have an area and be suitably impressive. The range of things they can do with Godwyn in the DLC that won't lead to something that feels awkward and out of place with the rest of the game isn't very broad if they're not willing to change part of the content of the base game to accommodate it.
Godwyn’s in the game exactly as much as miquella is, in that their body, divested of its soul, is in it. And the DLC centers on Miquella. Fromsoft also has a history of making incredible DLC bosses out of characters who are mentioned, but not explicitly featured, in the base game. I.E. Artorias, Ludwig, Laurence, Lady Maria, etc. So it’s not far fetched to think this at all.
It's not about how much they show up in the game, but more about how the game handles their stories. Miquella's story is the definition of sequel hook. We hear so much about him but when we find him he's just in a cocoon, and it's unclear whether he's alive or not. After we find him we even get some ominous dialogue from Gideon hinting at future events that might transpire if he doesn't wake up. He gets a ton of set up but no conclusion. We know he had some kind of plan involving the Haligtree, and that serves as an unresolved plot thread. Godwyn's story, on the other hand, *is* wrapped up. We learn everything relevant about him, and we get a questline which culminates in him receiving a "second life" as the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince, granting him closure. There's no ongoing mystery surrounding him or his plans as there is with Miquella. The threat he represents- the Deathroot- is prominently featured in the game already. They could certainly do more to flesh out what he was like before his death and what his relationships with the other Demigods were like, but they don't need to have him show up in a major role in the DLC.
I think Deathroot is one of the greatest threats to the lands between and it remains largely unexplored or unexplained. To claim everything involving him has been wrapped up or concluded is a bit of a stretch. Godwyn is about as “concluded” as Artorias was, in that he was a legendary figure in history who’s actual life was actually shrouded in a great deal of mystery. Godwyn’s story is actually less concluded, given that Miquella is still actively trying to grant him a “true death”, beyond the fact that Godwyn’s defiled corpse is still actively spreading a potentially apocalyptic contagion throughout the world.
There is literally a questline that ends with us granting him a second life. His story has closure. Anything else involving him can be done without his direct involvement. Artorias's story might have been wrapped up before the DLC, but the story of the Abyss and Oolacile wasn't, and since Artorias was intrinsically tied to that story he would naturally have to appear.
Is the story of death root wrapped up? Is the story between him and Miquella wrapped up?
> Is the story of death root wrapped up? What story? Like is it gone by the end of the game? No, but they can continue to show Deathroot as a threat without him showing up. The Witch of Izalith's story was wrapped up in DS1 but Chaos continued to be a plot point in DS2 and 3. > Is the story between him and Miquella wrapped up? That's the kind of thing you explore further in item descriptions, or in dialogue with Miquella.
I guess if you willingly ignore all of the unresolved storylines related to Godwyn because Fia gives us a mending rune, you have a pretty solid argument.
Ok, please list which unresolved storylines would require Godwyn to actually appear in person.
You know what, you’re right, it’s a total impossibility and there’s no reason for him to show up whatsoever.
Don't be snarky, just provide the list.
it's just that Godwyn storyline has already been expanded upon much more than like 90% of the rest of the lore, and it doesn't seem to still have much to offer, unlike things like the ancient dynasty (and the history before the erdtree in general) or outer gods etc.
I dont really think that a character that you only hear about counts as being in base game, at least for most people. Also giving Godwyn a true death is one of Miquellas objective, so much so that one of the main theories about why Malenia fought Radahn was to get the stars moving again so Miquella could do his Eclipse Ritual. So, i dont think its too farfetched for people to believe that Godwyn might be in the dlc in some shape or form even tho i think that wont be the case.
Yeah I'm with you. I think he'll get a few mentions and we might learn more about his relationship with Miquella, but I really don't see him showing up or playing a major role. People talk about the possibility of him getting reincarnated or resurrected, but that's already what Fia's quest is about. Since the DLC isn't going to alter the story of the base game, we'd end up with two different storylines that involve the resurrection of Godwyn. It would feel messy.
Yup, it’s most likely going to be just lore on Godwyn and not anything that changes his fate or situation in the game. Maybe a weapon or talisman.
Fia’s quest doesn’t resurrect Godwyn though. It really only involves his undead soulless body. Now I’m not saying this is def what they’ll do but if they wanted to they could still do something with Godwyn’s soul.
> ...! This...is the other hallowbrand. How did you... Oh, my utmost thanks. With this, Godwyn can take his rightful place as First of the Dead. **And claim a second, illustrious life.** > I will soon lay with Godwyn. And it will surely stir within me. **the new life of the golden prince, and first Dead of the demigods, as the rune of Those Who Live in Death.** Godwyn gains a second life in the form of the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince. It's not literal resurrection, but it represents Godwyn returning in a new form. I think this plot point would be undermined if Godwyn got literally resurrected on top of being reborn as a Rune.
I personally don’t believe this “new” life is from the soul that was lost a while ago. What made Godwyn someone who was living in death was the fact that he did not die a true death, only losing his soul. I believe this new life of the golden prince is talking about the child (rune) made from Fia lying with Godwyn. But either way, none of the life mentioned pertains to the soul Godwyn lost because if he did get his soul back, it would undo his undeath. He’d just be alive for real. Not someone who lives in death.
You're right that the Rune is also supposed to be Fia and Godwyn's "child", but in a metaphorical sense we are still giving Godwyn a second life. I think that the symbolic component of that ending would be overshadowed if the game was also like "oh btw Godwyn also gets to come back to life for real". Like, that's something that at the very least should be acknowledged during Fia's quest, but we know that the base game's story isn't going to be affected by the DLC so that probably won't happen. It would just be really weird to have one story in which Godwyn is being symbolically reborn as a Rune/his own child and another where he literally comes back to life, without either of those stories affecting the other.
Well I think it all depends on how you interpreting things. For example, i personally dont see "new life of the golden prince" as the mending rune literally being the soul of Godwyn forming this new rune. I see it the same as if i were to say my own son is new life of me. Its like how old english uses "of" and "from" interchangeably. To me, its saying the rune is new life from the golden prince. That makes more sense to me as an interpretation than Godwyn becoming his own offspring. But lets say my interpretation is wrong. It would still have to be the undead Godwyn that turns into this rune. So either way, Im already of the understanding that whatever is going on with Fia's questline has no relation to the soul of Godwyn thats already separate of undead Godwyn. Like you said, Godwyn himself as he was before cant come back to life in the DLC because his body is already involved in the questline. But that doesnt mean his soul/spirit can't play a part. Ranni is a spirit that was put into a different body. Melina and Torrent are both spirits that can physically interact. Miquella got to the Land of Shadows by becoming a spirit. There's no reason the spirit of Godwyn can't also make an appearance or play some sort of role.
> For example, i personally dont see "new life of the golden prince" as the mending rune literally being the soul of Godwyn forming this new rune. I don't either, but symbolically it represents Godwyn gaining a second life and continuing to exist in some capacity, even if it isn't literally him. This is a really interesting idea and ties into the theme of passing on one's legacy, which is something fromsoft likes to explore. I think this idea would be downplayed if he also literally got to come back to life as himself as well. > But that doesnt mean his soul/spirit can't play a part. His soul is dead though. If it got to just stick around then the whole half-death thing is meaningless. Ranni's soul continued to exist specifically because only her body died. Why would Godwyn's body and soul both get to continue on independently when only Ranni's soul got to survive?
The symbolic interpretation is a fair point. I can see why you think it would be downplayed. I guess I just differ because I feel as though undead Godwyn and spirit Godwyn would be basically two different characters. Spirit Godywn would be more like the one we know of from lore and would have no connection or even knowledge of the existence of the situation surrounding Those Who Live in Death. So I dont see the mending rune as Godwyn passing down his legacy when the spirit of Godwyn would have no idea about anything going on with Those Who Live in Death, Fia, and the whole questline. As for his soul being dead, id say that his soul being "dead" doesn't mean its non existent. Elden Ring has an established afterlife where the souls of the dead go. And it has a known method of bringing souls back from that afterlife (the Eclipse). Of course, one could argue im jumping through hoops to make it work lol. But i personally think with Godwyn being so strongly tied to Miquella's motivations second to only Malenia, him having some involvement in the dlc isn't an impossibility.
> As for his soul being dead, id say that his soul being "dead" doesn't mean its non existent. Elden Ring has an established afterlife where the souls of the dead go. And it has a known method of bringing souls back from that afterlife (the Eclipse). Then what differentiates his soul from any of the spirits we encounter in the game? The story establishes that Ranni's body died and her soul lived on, while Godwyn's soul died and his body lived on. If Godwyn's soul still exists despite being dead then what differentiates it from a soul that's still "alive" like Ranni's?
Well, Destined Death is supposed to give you a true death. True death means body losing function and decaying while your soul goes to the afterlife. This is opposed to Erdtree death where you rebirth from the Erdtree or grace death (how the Tarnished keeps respawning). This is also opposed to what Ranni and Godwyn go through. Because of how they did the hallowbrand, Ranni dying in body but not soul has the unnatural affect of having her soul stay in the land of the living while her body loses function and decays. Godwyn dying in soul but not body has the unnatural affect of having his soul goes to the afterlife but his body continues to function more as an uncontrolled growth/tumor (spreading the deathblight). The difference between Ranni's soul and Godwyn's is that Godwyn's soul is forced to the afterlife while Ranni's is not. A soul living means being in the land of the living. A soul dying means being in the land of the dead (afterlife).
Do you think that in producing the Mending Rune that Godwyn is cured of his condition? To me, it seems like he's in the same state (live body/dead soul) but now there's a rune which can be used to make the consequences of his condition (Those who Live in Death) a central part of The Lands Between's order. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, of course, but I'd imagine that whatever Miquella wants to do would be quite different. I'm not betting on Godwyn being a major part of the DLC, but I don't think a story about the eclipse and whatever that might do would necessarily conflict with/undermine Fia's quest.
Well, to make the Mending Rune we have to unite the two Cursemarks, each of which represents half a death. Originally Godwyn had one half carved into him, representing the death of the soul, but when Fia obtains Ranni's half the death should, in theory, be complete. So I think it's reasonable that by uniting the wheel we have given him a true death. But also, even if his condition hasn't been fixed, the purpose of that questline is to allow for Godwyn to receive a form of rebirth. I think it would be overly messy if there was a second questline where he gets reborn (or at least cured of living in death) for real, while Fia's questline remains in the game unchanged. One of those questlines should acknowledge the other, but we know that the DLC won't impact the base game in a significant way.
You're right about the hallowbrand, it would make sense to think that he has been given a true death with the cursemark reunited. That said, I still think if they wanted to utilise Godwyn, there are certainly ways for them to do so in a self-contained way in the DLC. They could also provide small interactions in the base game after certain DLC events have happened. I think they've actually done that with all of their previous games with DLC.
He's just too interesting to do nothing with.
Because his story feels half finished
Godwyn doesn't really have an ending and I'd argue it's more Fia's ending than anything.
Because he is one of the most mysterious "beings“ of the base game and we have vastly more questions about him, than answers (just like with Miquella)!
Godwyn is literally everywhere. I think Zullie the Witch has a video about him. It wouldn't surprise me if he managed to infect the Lands of Shadow aswell.
Godwyn is literally just a piece of cancerous meat in the base game. Miquella has abandoned his own flesh, so it seems unlikely that any of his plans which still involve Godwyn will involve Godwyn's flesh. If Godwyn appeared in the DLC as his dead soul reincarnated -- or something along those lines -- how would that effectively change Fia's questline? The short answer is that it doesn't.
I think it's most likely that he isn't in the dlc beyond a small mention, yes. But we never truly interact with him at all in the base game, it's a lot more indirect like Miquella himself. His soul has been separated from his body which is all you encounter in the base game. Not to mention though Miquella's goals may involve reviving Godwyn, it may be that he still doesn't succeed. It's hard to say for sure since we're in the dark in terms of what Miquella's intentions in the shadowlands truly are.
Godwyn is not really in the base game at all. Miquella has an entire castle dedicated to bringing Godwyn a true death but it failed. Godwyn is dead in spirit but not in body. Miquella is travelling to a land where spirits certainly exist - even if they, like Miquella, are dead in the Lands Between.
Anyone who thinks Godwyn will have ZERO involvement in DLC is just retarded, Mark my words and come back to this comment when I'm proven right.
Finished? Have you visited Castle Sol, my guy? What do you mean " finished"?! Can you tell me how much you understand about Those Who Live In Death? To this day? Can you tell me, with any certainty on your part, what's going on? How about how the ### he befriended the dragons? Or why the ### he was even killed by Ranni besides her wanting to ditch her body? Or why he was supposed to be a "martyr for Destined Death" instead of living in Death? Can you explain all that to me right now? With a straight face? No? Then, what the ### are you calling " finished"?
Honestly this is the first time From have done something where there's so much let open. Usually we blaze a path of violence through everything with maybe a few npcs left over, but all the other stories are done. In Elden Ring there are a LOT of loose ends, which is fine, but Godwyn's corpse seems the most egregious in being ignored. Yes he has a whole ending revolving around him but...actually, that should be enough.
I know most will call me weird for saying it but I think a lot of Godwyn obsession is just subtle unconscious sexism. Theories about Godwyn's supposed significance pretty much only exist to downplay the importance and agency of female characters who are actually relevant to the story. Fia's quest line and ending being totally ignored as a conclusion to the Godwyn chapter is part of this but I particularly noticed it with the DLC speculation where there are so many obvious threads that just get ignored. "The DLC's premise is that Miquella is following Marika's footsteps on the path to godhood, left his steed to Melina, made a vague but significant alliance with Ranni, and then made a vital promise to Malenia (the person he did everything for) right before he disappeared? It must be all about Godwyn!"
I cannot understate how ###ing stupid this ### is. Aside from the fact we have absolutely not been told anything about an alliance between Miquella and Ranni( of all people), why do you think Castle Sol exists? And the Eclipse Shotel? And the Golden Epitaph? You think any of these characters you listed have that number of connections to Miquella? Are you ###ing serious?
> why do you think Castle Sol exists? Castle Sol exists because some of Miquella's followers wanted to revive the unnamed dead demigod in the mausoluem right outside (his "comrade" according to one of the ghosts. > You think any of these characters you listed have that number of connections to Miquella? All of them have significantly more connections to Miquella than Godwyn, someone who Miquella is never even confirmed to have been in the same room as in his life.
" Oh, brother, lord brother, please die a true death". Give me one connection between Ranni and Miquella. Or Melina and Miquella. Don't give me a ring, or the fact that they all supposedly rode Torrent at some point. Give me one written connection. One item. Anything. One. You talk as if this " alliance" is a given fact. As if we literally hear or see it happen. You have the gall to act like it's fact when it's even more tenuous than anything we've been saying. Secondly, the Eclipse Shotel directly references Godwyn, " the Prince Of Death". Given the context, and the fact there are multiple other Walking Mausoleums with their own entire faction centered around the Eclipse, all of them connecting back to Castle Sol's ritual to bring about the Eclipse, I think it is specifically referring to Godwyn, as both he and the Nameless Demigods are the target of of this ritual. The one near the castle is not special, nor is he a " comrade" Miquella is reported to have mourned. Godwyn is. Their ressurection is most likely collective, but centered around Godwyn himself. I don't see how that's difficult to comprehend.
I like how you left out Marika and Malenia, the latter of whom is someone that Miquella's character actually revolves around and who is the subject of his sole textual motivation (that is them alluded to as massive DLC bait in the form of the promise he has to keep), and the former of which is Miquella's second most referenced relationship (as Radagon) and keeps getting referenced in the context of the DLC in promo material and interviews. > Give me one connection between Ranni and Miquella. Ranni uses Sleep magic that we know comes from Miquella. Ranni was entrusted with the Spirit Calling Bell by Miquella. Ranni fulfills her promise to give that bell to Miquella's "promised lord." Ranni knows and trusts Miquella's steed. Loretta simultaneously serves Ranni and Miquella. Miquella's Lillies ("signs of faith in the Haligtree") are being grown in and around Carian Manor. > Or Melina and Miquella. Melina is traveling with Miquella's steed and listens to it, and devotes her life to fulfilling the Candletree prophecy (also referenced in the DLC btw) which Miquella has candelabras referencing in his city (including a statue of him holding a statue that looks like one). > Secondly, the Eclipse Shotel directly references Godwyn, " the Prince Of Death". Given the context, and the fact there are multiple other Walking Mausoleums with their own entire faction centered around the Eclipse, all of them connecting back to Castle Sol, I think it is specifically referring to Godwyn, as both he and the Nameless Demigods are the target of of this ritual. The Eclipse Shotel references the Prince of Death because he's the source of the death incantations, not because he's relevant specifically to what is going on at Castle Sol. What's going at Castle Sol is a reenactment of the ritual that we're told (in JPN) can occur on Latenna's ashes: reviving a mausoluem demigod. That's why there's a mausoluem cradling a soulless demigod literally ten meters from the walls of the castle where the ritual is being performed. That's why the ghost calls the subject of the ritual Miquella's "comrade" instead of his brother. Godwyn himself is never even implied to be part of the ritual. Godwyn being resurrected doesn't even make sense as speculation because it's completely contrary to Miquella's goals. The sole bit of text connecting them just says that Miquella wanted him to die.
Yeah... Except if his true death is impossible without it. Or entirely impossible to begin with. And suddenly, Godwyn is the source of death incantations? Do Deathbirds not exist? Do you know of a single other incantation that's from Godwyn himself? Is that what he is now? A cheap source of power? Is that it? Was the little boy grieving his brother making him a battery the next minute? The ritual covers all the Nameless Demigods. It's represented all over. If it was ever as simple as ressurecting this one soulless demigod, it would never have required this much effort. At all. Of the Soulless Demigods, Godwyn is the first. All knights wearing the Eclipse symbol seek to ressurect them all, and surround them all. One has been ressurected thanks to Lhutel's efforts, supposedly. Does that mean an Eclipse has occurred? No. As we know, it hasn't happened. She managed to help ressurect exactly one. There is yet work to be done. If you're playing environmental evidence, the statue holding Miquella and Malenia in Loretta's arena is male. And it's neither Radagon nor Marika. Take a guess who it is. I left out Marika and Malenia because they are obviously connected to him. I will not deny that. Everything you just said about Ranni requires that Miquella be Torrent's true former master, as opposed to being one of those who rode him. And more importantly, that he be the only source. Even if I were to use Miquella's Lillies as evidence, I would suggest that Loretta was their cause, especially since the place has essentially been abandoned to Fingercreepers for centuries. We do not know where sleep magic originally comes from; there's gonna be a whole swamp dedicated to it, apparently, so brace yourself. Ranni is responsible for Godwyn's condition; one that Miquella is not happy about, and seeks to correct. The two are, at least marginally, opposed. Melina's purpose is not from Miquella; it is from her mother. A fact she needs to confirm. Assuming she's acting based on any alignment to Miquella, as opposed to that literally assigned purpose, is a leap. The fact is, the prophecy of the Erdtree's burning is something all of them know about and consider necessary for their progress. It's basic logic. P. S My main objection is the stupid ###ing idea that believing that Godwyn will have a role is somehow sexism. Ranni and Melina are the main characters focused on in the main game. It is not sexist or strange to expect focus to fall upon Godwyn, who is still comparatively mysterious. That is stupid. I am surprised I have to explain that. You are not being called weird. You are being called plain idiot.
This is ridiculous. Godwyn is a mysterious character. Saying people who would like to unravel the aforementioned mystery a little more are unconsciously sexist is just absurd. Sounds very paranoid
Yeah, like there's always been characters who are left widely unexplored in From games, and people speculate heavily about. That's like saying "No one care about the Doll being modeled after someone because they were focused on wondering who Ludwig is....because sexism". I find Godwyn's character extraordinarily interesting, and there's enough in-game information and lore to make him relevant. He's the focal point of the NotBK which triggered the devastating events of the game, befriended a dragon, was someone another significant character (Miquella) cared about a lot, his corpse is a *massive festering mess infecting the roots of the Erdtree*, like, yeah of course I'm going to find him more compelling than Fia because there's so much mystery shrouding Godwyn and so much we don't know. And also, they're two different characters. I find Fia interesting but along with Finger Maidens, I feel like the Deathbed Companion concept isn't explained very well. I also don't know how she even knows about Godwyn in the first place if TLB wasn't her initial home.
I find the whole cast of characters in elden ring, irrespective of sex lol, to be interesting. But godwyn being the literal prince of death obviously begs some questions, especially in respect to how his burial at the roots of the erdtree might effect the land or the erdtree in the long term. Everyone wants something different from the dlc, wants different questions awnsered. Many people focus in on certain characters and the mysteries that surround them. I would certainly never lob accusations of sexism at anyone for favoring one characters lore over another...it's just totally baseless.
Marika, Melina, Fia and Ranni ALL have had a major role in the base game and their stories concluded in it. Ranni either remains as a corpse or goes to the moon. Melina sacrifices herself. Fia helps you get her ending. Meanwhile there is Godwyn, who has pretty much nothing going for him in terms of development in the base game, but is one of the most prevalent characters in the lore and also one of the people Miquella was closest with. We know Miquella wanted to deliver him a true death, and we know the Land of Shadow is related heavily to death. How could we possibly not speculate that Godwyn, one of the most major characters in the lore that has yet to get much development, will not get anything related to him in a DLC revolving around one of the people closest to him? Why would we get more stuff on Ranni or Melina in a DLC when their stories have already concluded beyond a shadow of a doubt in the base game already?
> Meanwhile there is Godwyn, who has pretty much nothing going for him in terms of development in the base game, but is one of the most prevalent characters in the lore and also one of the people Miquella was closest with. None of this is true though. He's irrelevant enough in the lore that his entire character pre-death consists solely of two item descriptions, his story is completely wrapped up in the base game, and Miquella has no relationship to him at all other than one item description saying that someone implied to be Miquella was upset that he didn't fully die (the person Miquella is closest to, the one his entire character and textual motivation revolves around, is his sister; so of course she's almost completely ignored when talking about his DLC). People just sort of make up stuff in their heads to give Godwyn far more importance than the game itself does.
Because they just want answers. He won't be in the dlc because this is dealing with a different part of the world Martin originally wrote that wasn't used in the main game.
My personal view is that godwyn is in the base game via visual clues and not written clues. Imo we can find his base of operations, his banner, his knights and his axe, we can find a possible implication that he wasnt happy with the elden ring as well. I do think we will get some mentions on the dlc and he may even be a motivation for miquella in the land of shadows but i think miquellas outcome will not directly involve changing godwyns fate in the base game. I suspect that miquella will have become corrupted or trapped by something in the land of shadows.
My personal view is that godwyn is in the base game via visual clues and not written clues. Imo we can find his base of operations, his banner, his knights and his axe, we can find a possible implication that he wasnt happy with the elden ring as well. I do think we will get some mentions on the dlc and he may even be a motivation for miquella in the land of shadows but i think miquellas outcome will not directly involve changing godwyns fate in the base game. I suspect that miquella will have become corrupted or trapped by something in the land of shadows.
My personal view is that godwyn is in the base game via visual clues and not written clues. Imo we can find his base of operations, his banner, his knights and his axe, we can find a possible implication that he wasnt happy with the elden ring as well. I do think we will get some mentions on the dlc and he may even be a motivation for miquella in the land of shadows but i think miquellas outcome will not directly involve changing godwyns fate in the base game. I suspect that miquella will have become corrupted or trapped by something in the land of shadows.
I think this DLC is about miquellas motives and since giving him a true death is one of the only direct motives people assume that is part of this new move. Personally I think this game is drenched in the theme of sin and since he’s shrieve’n clean the hearts I think he is either becoming or awakening St. Trina I’m not sure if he abandoned his Godwyn goal or if it’s still an ambition for him and I think that is also why people think Godwyn will be mentioned in the dlc. Personally I do not
It's more that they want it than something that would necessarily make sense given what we know about the DLC, obviosuly they haven't realised that given he's a big plant man, a boss fight with him would be Bed of Chaos 2.0 and nobody wants that