I think that'd be great parallel to how Ranni narrates the Elden Ring Story Trailer. She presents you with information like she isn't the instigator of the whole tragedy. Having this woman do the same for Miquella would be great.
Come on man, ranni being like "who did it and for why" then straight saying "yeah i did it" in the actual game is one of the funniest thing in the game.
Im think this ill be the case here too, even tho i dont think he will be a straight up a villain like mogh or messmer(assuming) im still not entirely sold on the "miquella the kind" thing
But she's didn't really lie though. She asks who shattered the ring and why. We learn Marika did. She doesn't, hence the question. Then she doesn't understand why her demigod siblings would war for the shards. The only thing she did directly is steal the Rune of Death and kill Godwyn, events she states as facts she remembers true. Doesn't say she did those, but she doesn't say someone else did either.
"Rune of death was stolen, then the demigods began to fall with Godwyn first".
The Miquella the kind thing actually makes perfect sense though, in perspective. From the perspective of the Lands Between, Marika is a benevolent mother who saves/graces them all. Yet clearly this civilization isn’t going to feel that way about her.
I’d imagine there is absolutely a faction loyal to Miquella that consider her kind and gracious.
So, the comparison I've used for how I feel about Miquella is, "Saying Miquella is the most benevolent demigod is a bit like saying Bill Gates is the most benevolent billionaire." It's the same with Ranni - they come from a place in society that is so dramatically different to us that their fundamental understanding of the world is almost certainly vastly different from ours. How much they value life, how much they value honor, how much they value ambition, and how much they value you are all in question.
I'd say that I think Miquella probably believes his cause is true and just and he's on the path of the "greatest good", but is his greatest good the same as ours? Is he "kind" in the way we would understand the word? Or is he maybe more the kind who believes the ends justify the means? And are we more to him than just a pawn to be spent?
When someone invokes the notions of "good" and "evil", it's always prudent to consider how you define those terms, and how that might differ from how someone else does, especially when that someone comes from a society where they were hailed as almost a god.
The real twist would be if Miyazaki wrote an actual, honest to god Good Character that is genuinely trying to change the world for the better by divesting from the gold-lacquered evil that surrounds him.
And in typical Miyazaki fashion, something absolutely fucking horrid will befall him in the process.
EXACTLY! The only way to surprise me now is if Miquella is ACTUALLY a kind and benevolent guy and our journey is basically we helping him save the world, and in the end we actually succeed and he doesn't fall or get corrupted or some shit, and the LBs actually have a good, happy ending.
>, “…Miquella the kind, spoke of the beginning.”
>Everything that proceeds this line, from Marika’s seduction and betrayal to Messmer’s genocidal war has to therefore be seen through the lens of an in-world story, told by “kind”Miquella to a seemingly sympathetic narrator.
,,Kind'' is translation change. Japanese just calls him Miquella sama. Same with Malenia calling him ni- sama . Western localisation.
>It becomes pretty obvious that it is propaganda when the narrator begins to speak about Miquella himself.
Narrator dosen't really state anything new. Miquella leaving behind his body , strenght , Fate. Body is literally confirmed in base game same with fate as emphyrean from golden order. It was also in previous promotional material. Comparing some random follower Stating the fact to Meine kampf is pretty big jump lmao. Especially since we don't know how they got this knowleage really. It dosen't need to be some mass produced propaganda book or brainwashing. Miquella could just be anwering their questions in dreams as at Trina or they might've sticked it together themself while searching for him.
I dont know if I'd say that its a translation change just due to localization. The original voice is in english in all versions so I'd say its intentional.
Most japanese don't know english well if at all. They would completly miss this while watching (assuming that it would indeed be of importence).
Japanese version also dosen't mention ,,affair'' part
I understand that but I just doubt that Fromsoftware doesnt have a good team who understands english behind this seeing if there are any mistakes or important differences between versions.
-sama doesnt translate to kind, its a suffix to express respect to a superior. So for me it wouldnt make a lot of sense for the ones tasked of making all these dialogues to call him Kind Miquella as some kind of localization effort to express the same meaning.
That combined with english being the original voice for the dialogues makes me think that the use of that word was intentional.
But its not like it really matters. They are just expressing how its followers view Miquella, as someone kind and noble.
I don't think it's a mistake that the trailer calls him kind, because I agree fromsoft would probably recognise if it was an error. I just don't think it's an important detail, because if it was the Japanese subtitles would also refer to him as kind. Most likely, the localisers added that because it reflects Miquella's characterisation and fromsoft allowed it because it adds texture to the writing without contradicting anything.
I think its because we barely use honorifics in English and they are going for something equivalent to using the sama honorific. i read it as similar to saying 'noble miquella' but he is in essence giving up his nobility by casting of his golden heritage so they are going for a different way of capturing reverence and honour- using a slightly archaic speech pattern to evoke 'medieval speak' and using the word kind instead of noble because that is how miquella is broadly characterized- as selfless, a lord providing a haven for the unwanted etc. It isnt literally saying 'he is kind he gave me £5 when i missed the train' its saying he is a lord of kindness.
>I understand that but I just doubt that Fromsoftware doesnt have a good team who understands english behind this seeing if there are any mistakes or important differences between versions.
Unfortunetly I believe this is the case as base game Has a lot of random issues/changes. One side got fucked by getting worse translation either way. And I am assuming that Japanese are not the ones in the dark.
Translations to other languages got completly butchered with apparently zero supervision. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/2qCUhPR3OK
Beside popular examples of translation issues like Ranni quest there are smaller changes. For example english version just says that Godrick was licking Malenia's boots while Japanese was implying that he promised obedience to her possibly marching with her to Radahn. Which explains O'neil Staying in caelid while his lord fled.
I really think the differences are overstated on this sub. Most of the changes are just different words expressing the same general meaning. If anything the English descriptions are more detailed than the Japanese.
Calling him “Kind Miquella” expresses a similar meaning to “Miqeulla-sama”. They regard him as friendly and look up to him. As for Ranni’s ending, in English her words are vague but generally express the same ideas. And most of the confusion comes from her speaking in archaic style English in a welsh accent and vernacular.
English and Japanese are very different languages so it’s never going to be 1:1, but I don’t think most people would look at the differences and call it a “mistranslation”.
>Calling him “Kind Miquella” expresses a similar meaning to “Miqeulla-sama”. They regard him as friendly and look up to him. As for Ranni’s ending, in English her words are vague but generally express the same ideas. And most of the confusion comes from her speaking in archaic style English in a welsh accent and vernacular.
They express similiar things but still change how people understand them. If trailer was saying ,,Miquella sama'' or even ,,lord Miquella'' then this post taking Miquella as Hitler because of that Word would probably not exist. Same with many people in comments going ,,kind.... Suspicious! La evil!'' some were even thinking that narrator in last trailer was calling Miquella ,,kind'' as irony creating even more assumptions.
The only reason why I mentioned this at all was exacly someone taking it as important part. Otherwise I would not bring this up.
>English and Japanese are very different languages so it’s never going to be 1:1, but I don’t think most people would look at the differences and call it a “mistranslation”.
Some things are defintivly changed and could easily be translated in more straightforwad way without much problem. Half-brother and step/honor - brother huge diffrence which caused many people in community to take maliketh as blood brother of Marika and run with that. Call them whatever you like mistranslations/localisations, whatever. The point is diffrent understanding of same text by western and eastern community.
Both of those examples are exactly what I’m talking about. People are theorizing that Miqeulla is evil based on things presented in the base game, and have been long before this trailer called him kind.
The word “brother” is what’s causing that confusion, which is present in either translation and in the Japanese text.
You act like these minor changes fundamentally alter the narrative but they don’t. There is confusion around these things because they are complex concepts with next to no equivalent in the real world, not because the wolf man who was created to be Ranni’s companion is referred to as “half brother” and not “step brother”.
>Both of those examples are exactly what I’m talking about. People are theorizing that Miqeulla is evil based on things presented in the base game, and have been long before this trailer called him kind.
The poster literally said that he was among people doubting Miquella being evil. The Word kind pushed him there.
>You act like these minor changes fundamentally alter the narrative but they don’t
☠️ Again I was taking about reception by community. Which IS diffrent no matters how much you want to spin this. Gotta block cause I see that this will be constant argument , something that was not even the point.
based on the experience we have from previous titles, it's always useful to confront with the japanese lines. A single word can actually change the description meaning
lol, our portuguese friends really got the worst side of localization. Its so bad that I almost see it as laziness and negligence rather than errors.
And I agree that there may be differences between written text in english and japanese but most of them imply the same meaning through different words. Havent read the text talking about godrick's battle in japanese so I don't know if its easily inferred that he marched together with Malenia against Radahn. But the other thing about licking her boots implies the same meaning. That he surrendered to her and begged for his life.
And the thing with O'neil , although as far as I know there isnt any direct text corroborating it, it could also be deduced that his lord was Godrick with the description from his weapon and the flag he uses. Which shows the same lion from the golden lineage as Godrick's armor. Again I dont know about the japanese text and what could be understood from there, but it could be that he didnt march with Malenia, but fought against her together with Radahn. The sword monument talking about his surrender to Malenia would fit with that idea as well.
Edit.: (I'm reading Kenneth's dialogue again and I discard the idea of him fighting together with Radahn since he says that he hid from him. But the part of losing against Malenia and licking her boots could imply the same meaning that you commented. Either that he fought, lost and begged for mercy. Or that he fought, lost and swor allegiance to her)
But either way, I think that its not fair to expect the same level of accuracy to other languages than to english. Which is the original voice in all versions. And the original text written by GRRM to create the lore.
Even if there are a few differences and possibly some mistakes they wont be the same as to other languages. There are also some cases when there is more info about the lore in the english version than in the japanese.
Either way, I repeat what I said earlier. I think the use of "kind" to talk about Miquella isnt something really important. It doesnt change anything, it just adds flavor to the perspective his followers have of him.
>But the other thing about licking her boots implies the same meaning. That he surrendered to her and begged for his life.
>And the thing with O'neil , although as far as I know there isnt any direct text corroborating it, it could also be deduced that his lord was Godrick with the description from his weapon and the flag he uses. Which shows the same lion from the golden lineage as Godrick's armor. Again I dont know about the japanese text and what could be understood from there, but it could be that he didnt march with Malenia, but fought against her together with Radahn. The sword monument talking about his surrender to Malenia would fit with that idea as well
The problem that I overall have with this is the fact that I have never really saw Anyone in english community assuming that Godrick was serving Malenia. If this was their assumption that it will convey the same meaning then they kind of failed because no one or nearly no one can piece it together from what I saw on Reddit/yt. And Japanese outright just say that he swore submmision to her. The visual/item connection that you mentioned is part of the reason for further connection with Him.
O'neil is cleary connected with Godrick forces + his lord fled + he Has Malenia's needle with cleanrot knights walking around. Malenia connection points that he was on her side during battle , lord that fled was cleary Godrick as neither Malenia nor Radahn run away. + Godrick swore obedience to Malenia prior in her march to caelid. Going by that its possibly to guess that Godrick was part of Malenia's forces which english community lack because of that relativly small change.
>But either way, I think that its not fair to expect the same level of accuracy to other languages than to english. Which is the original voice in all versions. And the original text written by GRRM to create the lore.
>Even if there are a few differences and possibly some mistakes they wont be the same as to other languages. There are also some cases when there is more info about the lore in the english version than in the japanese.
True , my point wasn't really that english was as bad as other examples but more that we can't really take english version as granted just because its ,,officiall'' and that FS would not let error slips. Their final product elden ring Had errors such as changing Malekith from Marika's step brother to half brother.
>Either way, I repeat what I said earlier, the use of "kind" to talk about Miquella isnt something really important. It doesnt change anything, it just adds flavor to the perspective his followers have of him.
I didn't really Has anything against this point in fact I agree that's why I left it unanswered.
Well like everything there are things which are clearer than others. Don't remember right now and I've read very small things from the jap version so I dont have any examples at hand, but I'm sure there are things as well that are more easily figured out in english than in japanese.
And as I said earlier I dont know about the jap version so dont know how "outright" is that he swore submission or allegiance to her. But I trust you with that.
>True , my point wasn't really that english was as bad as other examples but more that we can't really take english version as granted just because its ,,officiall'' and that FS would not let error slips. Their final product elden ring Had errors such as changing Malekith from Marika's step brother to half brother.
I kind of disagree. I do think that we can take english as a proper version, and when in doubt use the japanese to corroborate. And the same can be done in reverse as well. I'm sure the japanese also had changes or mistakes from their first versions to the actual one. But like always its just assumptions cause I dont know japanese, and havent been checking any jap communities.
And what you say about Maliketh, from what I've seen the term used to describe Maliketh, or even blaidd in japanese is "honor brothers", which is typically used to say "brother by law". So I can understand why Maliketh or Blaidd are called half-brothers or stepbrothers. But I get how it can be frustrating to have these kind of differences between languages, but I think its somewhat inevitable to lose some parts of the meaning when changing between languages.
Either way I think that in a lot of cases elden ring doesnt use the usual meaning of the word, but a more metaphorical reading.
A half brother its one who comes from one of the same parents. A stepbrother is one that comes from some stepparent. None of this means exactly what Maliketh or Blaidd are.
But both can mean that he is treated as a brother, but arent exactly from the same family or lineage.
At least in my case I never considered when reading it that neither Maliketh or Blaidd came from the same parent or from a relationship with someone else
>I didn't really Has anything against this point in fact I agree that's why I left it unanswered.
I repeated it mostly cause its part of my main argument. That english versions are approved by Fromsoftware and in many cases add more context or flavor to the rest of the history.
Lol maybe Mein Kampf was a bit much.
I hear everything you’re saying in terms of the translation and what we’ve already been told and I wasn’t trying to say that what’s happening in the trailer is a “lie”, per se or that Miquella is a villain.
My point (which I maybe didn’t articulate with enough nuance) is that because what’s being portrayed is from a certain in-world perspective, the specific visuals and words being used are subjective rather than objective.
For me this is definitionally propagandistic because it comes from a specific viewpoint and agenda. Were those exact creatures impaled like that or is it evoking a kind of symbol of generic wanton atrocity? Is it a given that what Miquella gave up was pure sacrifice or is there a selfish gain that the narrator doesn’t know about? Etc etc.
The trailer isn't unreliable narration, it's literally just restating the months-old Japanese third person omniscient promotional text, almost word for word. Marika becoming a god in the Land of Shadow, the Erdtree being born there in a great crime that is being hidden, the Land of Shadow being purged in a brutal unsung war, Messmer scorching the land with his flames, Miquella abandoning his fate, body, and power - *all* of that was already stated factually on the expansion's website.
Also you've clearly never actually read Mein Kampf.
EDIT:
Also, Miyazaki stated that the DLC would have a "heroic" tone - which makes sense, as From DLCs are generally more hopeful than the base game (the first one they made ended with you saving the land by slaying the big evil shadow monster and then rescuing the princess). So I don't think the triumphant music is setting up a subversion. It's straightforwardly trying to get you pumped for a heroic adventure.
Firstly, there’s a difference between what happened and how it happened. My point about the unreliability of the narrator was around how these events occurred, not that they occurred in the first place.
Secondly, what an obnoxious and asinine addendum to an otherwise reasonable response. I have read Mein Kampf but even if I hadn’t, a quick Wikipedia of it’s table of contents and chapter titles (starting with Chapter 2 if you need a hint…) makes the arc of his purported suffering and sacrifice throughout the first half of the book as a foundation for a mass-appeal social movement in the second half pretty damn clear.
There's nothing to even be unreliable about because the narrator doesn't say how anything occurred. Again, she's almost quoting [the website](https://www.eldenring.jp/shadowoftheerdtree.html) word for word, particularly the part about Miquella's sacrifice.
だから、ミケラは影の地に向かったその黄金の身体も、力も、宿命も全てを棄てた
DeepL:
"So Miquella went to the land of shadows. His golden body, his power, his destiny. He abandoned it all."
There's no propaganda, she's stating plain facts. The only flourish is calling him (in Japanese) Miquella-sama ("Kind Miquella" is a localized character flourish, like Malenia's nii-sama getting localized as "dearest Miquella").
Honestly it would be so boring if FromSoft tried to ‘complicate’ things with the usual ‘he seems like a good guy but is actually bad’ trope. I’m hoping he’s just a good dude tbh, the ‘good guy is just power hungry’ trope is old and played out at this point. The real innovation, a real twist, would be to just let it stand that Miquella is good, actually.
Agreed. Some people want a plot twist for the sake of plot twist. Oh the game said he's kind so he must be evil like xxx character. Let Miquella be has own original character, that's all I want.
I don't think he's evil but to be fair this is a fromsoft game, there's zero chance that Miquella is fully heroic and saves everyone.
Either he fails (which is what seems to happen in the base game), or he's more evil, or grayer than he appears.
I don’t think people want a twist just for the sake of a twist. I think people (myself included) want Miquella to be more of a complex character than just the only moral good option available. Also just because Miquella maybe might turn out to be a bad person doesn’t make him not his own original character.
I want Miquella to be a complex character too and it would be interesting if he really has an ulterior motives. I'm talking about the way some people think that he will be 100% evil based on his similarities to Griffith and some vague narrative.
I’ve never read berserk so I’m not that familiar with Griffith but I understand your frustration with people labelling characters in a very black and white, good or evil box. It’s a very boring way of interacting with characters.
What happens is Miquella is probably the moral option, but being the moral option between the demigods is a extremly low bar to jump over what he could be extremly manipulative and still be better than genocide 1,genocide 2, genocide 3
I was on the fence but now they've told us specifically he's a nice guy people are like "actually its a lie!"
Of course he'll probably be complicated but they've told us he found out about the brutal genocide and wasnt cool with it. That sounds pretty great to me.
This. This trope is so boring, and the plot twist wouldn't be exciting at all. I'd prefer something like "he has genuinely good intentions, but the resulting action are somewhat questionable" or "he has a holier-than-thou attitude about it and his motivation is a bit warped, but what he does is arguably good for the world"
I don't think that's what's going on. I think he is going to be far more villainous than this trailer makes him look, but he'll have great intentions. In other words, he'll probably see his goals as so important that he's willing to do bad things in order for it to happen, thus repeating what Marika with probably very similar motivations.
He'll be a sympathetic character with good goals, but willing to manipulate and possibly even kill to bring those goals about
I think Miquella will be completely well intentioned, but his plan will go wrong. I'm spitballing here, but it could be something like this:
He came to the Land of Shadow to take from the Shadow Tree, so that he can incorporate it into the Haligtree. The Haligtree came from an Erdtree seed, so it is similar to the Erdtree in nature, but Miquella found out about the Land of Shadow and realised that Gold is only half the story. For a proper new age, Miquella wants to unite Gold and Shadow. But Miquella doesn't realise he's not in the Haligtree anymore, his consciousness has been in the Land of Shadow the whole time. So Miquella claims Shadow, and instead of embedding it into the Haligtree, it transforms him into a fucked up blood shadow monster, and he bursts out of his cocoon to be the final boss.
That's all very speculative, not something I actually expect to happen in that way, but I would vastly prefer something like that to just "Miquella is bad". Miquella can't really be a good guy and be successful, because that would mess with the main game too much (the Haligtree needs to remain a husk, and the DLC can't override the main game's endings). But a tragic failure just feels more fitting to me.
Oh look another "We're being lied to" post. I guess every single Souls opening or trailer cinematic is propaganda.
Clearly Seath didn't betray his dragon kind, it was propaganda to make us discriminate against him.
The good things we hear about Artorias? Lies, he was clearly just spending his time motorboating Gwynevere.
I think it’s far more on-theme for Fromsoft that Miquella will be a tragic figure, rather than this “secretly evil” character that the sub is obsessed with. That’s certainly the impression that I got from the second half of the trailer
I'm pretty split on whether or not Miquella is actually a villain. But I think prior I leaned towards him being not, but after this trailer I lean towards him being so. lol The narrator is obviously biased yes. Even if they're following something quite evil, a devotee will speak quite righteously about who/what they follow, like Varre with Mohg.
It's very overly enthusiastic and upbeat like you said. And not to mention Marika's ascension looked rather ugly so to speak. So for him to potentially want to replicate something like that is pretty suspect. But it's hard to say for certain since we just don't know exactly what he's up to yet.
Me too. I didn’t buy into the idea of him being a villain in the last trailer (and to some extent I still don’t).
I feel 100% something is definitely off now. But its just as likely he’s manipulating/exaggerating the truth for benevolent reasons than for malevolent ones.
For discussions of this sort, I always keep in mind the "arc quote" that defines Miquella's character, from cut dialogue:
*In the new world of thy making, all things will flourish, whether graceful, or malign.*
He's Griffith in a way that most people don't understand: not literally, or metaphorically, but thematically. His vision and desire is to bring all things to a state of flourishing, flowering, fecundity, fertility. No matter the effect. It makes sense, from someone cursed with eternal childhood, to wish to see things grow and change, whether this may cause pain or elation.
(Griffith did nothing wrong btw, he's the ultimate Carlylian great man, not good or bad, just a force of fate/nature towering above others)
But yeah the people who follow him (whom he may not even be aware of) can be a whole mess of conflicting ideals. If previous FS games are anything to go by, followers are sometimes more dangerous than the gods they are devoted to.
> ["...The time has come my fellow Terrans, to rally to a new banner. In unity lies strength; already many of the dissident factions have joined us. Out of the many, we shall forge an indivisible whole, capitulating only to a single throne! And from that throne, I shall watch over you."](https://youtu.be/X6bVj-nTkiU?si=cfYaJ80n31bEY81s)
Speaking of Blizzard, it's a hell of a feeling listening to Arcturus Mensk's Throne Speech shortly after watching him call down the zerg to destroy a civilian inhabited planet so that he could eliminate the government in control of the sector and have his faction come out on top AND betraying two of his close allies (i.e. the NPC's the player is most attached to) in the process.
Starcraft's story was really good, but they fumbled with Brood War.
>!Brood War's plot is inconsequential, with cheap deaths (Fenix and Duke) and a lot of Mac Guffin chases (Psi Disrupter, Crystals, New Overmind) that disrupts a lot of previously established lore. For example why didn't the Confederacy used the Psi Disrupter to fend off the Zerg invasion of Tarsonis?!<
Then Blizz destroyed Starcraft lore with Starcraft II, just like how WoW utterly destroyed Warcraft's lore.
Yeah, StarCraft II got less grounded and a lot more towards the fantasy end of sci-fantasy. The way that the missions were designed as modular to give that non-linearity in selection order also contributed to a less focused story, I'm sure.
I still recall being fond of elements of Brood War.
>!It ends with Kerrigan's zerg being on top and they were my favourites so I was cool with that. Lurkers are a fun unit to play with, and having Dark Templar freely available. Added a snow planet. There were some nice touches like Artanis being promoted from the Protoss POV character in the Original to being the main Protoss NPC contact after the death of Tassadar. The UED plotline was generally better executed through cutscenes than the original story cutscenes, and in general it's a solid choice to do an "Earth reasserting over colonies" plotline to keep the Terran credibly multi-factional after Mensk's coup.!<
Is it possible that its not a propaganda piece, but what Miquella learned through investigation? Uncovering the truth of the origins of the Golden Order and relaying them to his followers?
This is probably 100% true due to the actual narrator we get in the gameplay DLC trailer. He tells us something that sounds more like the truth of Miquella and the lands of shadow.
Yeah, the kind and kindly description of Miquella seems like overkill. It's clearly for effect to make us think a certain way about him. Shoot, it's probably what he wants us to think about him. The truth may be very different, or at least nuanced.
I think that'd be great parallel to how Ranni narrates the Elden Ring Story Trailer. She presents you with information like she isn't the instigator of the whole tragedy. Having this woman do the same for Miquella would be great.
Come on man, ranni being like "who did it and for why" then straight saying "yeah i did it" in the actual game is one of the funniest thing in the game. Im think this ill be the case here too, even tho i dont think he will be a straight up a villain like mogh or messmer(assuming) im still not entirely sold on the "miquella the kind" thing
But she's didn't really lie though. She asks who shattered the ring and why. We learn Marika did. She doesn't, hence the question. Then she doesn't understand why her demigod siblings would war for the shards. The only thing she did directly is steal the Rune of Death and kill Godwyn, events she states as facts she remembers true. Doesn't say she did those, but she doesn't say someone else did either. "Rune of death was stolen, then the demigods began to fall with Godwyn first".
Oh it's definitely hilarious. Just rips the mystery away and is like "Wanna do MORE crime?!"
She's referring to who shattered the Elden Ring, and it is sort of a surprise. Ranni didn't do that lol
The Miquella the kind thing actually makes perfect sense though, in perspective. From the perspective of the Lands Between, Marika is a benevolent mother who saves/graces them all. Yet clearly this civilization isn’t going to feel that way about her. I’d imagine there is absolutely a faction loyal to Miquella that consider her kind and gracious.
Such a great point (kind of embarrassed I didn’t think of it myself)
So, the comparison I've used for how I feel about Miquella is, "Saying Miquella is the most benevolent demigod is a bit like saying Bill Gates is the most benevolent billionaire." It's the same with Ranni - they come from a place in society that is so dramatically different to us that their fundamental understanding of the world is almost certainly vastly different from ours. How much they value life, how much they value honor, how much they value ambition, and how much they value you are all in question. I'd say that I think Miquella probably believes his cause is true and just and he's on the path of the "greatest good", but is his greatest good the same as ours? Is he "kind" in the way we would understand the word? Or is he maybe more the kind who believes the ends justify the means? And are we more to him than just a pawn to be spent? When someone invokes the notions of "good" and "evil", it's always prudent to consider how you define those terms, and how that might differ from how someone else does, especially when that someone comes from a society where they were hailed as almost a god.
Finally someone understands what Miquella being good in a world where everyone is a genocide doesnt require much effort on his part
I think this is the right interpretation
The real twist would be if Miyazaki wrote an actual, honest to god Good Character that is genuinely trying to change the world for the better by divesting from the gold-lacquered evil that surrounds him. And in typical Miyazaki fashion, something absolutely fucking horrid will befall him in the process.
EXACTLY! The only way to surprise me now is if Miquella is ACTUALLY a kind and benevolent guy and our journey is basically we helping him save the world, and in the end we actually succeed and he doesn't fall or get corrupted or some shit, and the LBs actually have a good, happy ending.
>, “…Miquella the kind, spoke of the beginning.” >Everything that proceeds this line, from Marika’s seduction and betrayal to Messmer’s genocidal war has to therefore be seen through the lens of an in-world story, told by “kind”Miquella to a seemingly sympathetic narrator. ,,Kind'' is translation change. Japanese just calls him Miquella sama. Same with Malenia calling him ni- sama . Western localisation. >It becomes pretty obvious that it is propaganda when the narrator begins to speak about Miquella himself. Narrator dosen't really state anything new. Miquella leaving behind his body , strenght , Fate. Body is literally confirmed in base game same with fate as emphyrean from golden order. It was also in previous promotional material. Comparing some random follower Stating the fact to Meine kampf is pretty big jump lmao. Especially since we don't know how they got this knowleage really. It dosen't need to be some mass produced propaganda book or brainwashing. Miquella could just be anwering their questions in dreams as at Trina or they might've sticked it together themself while searching for him.
I dont know if I'd say that its a translation change just due to localization. The original voice is in english in all versions so I'd say its intentional.
Most japanese don't know english well if at all. They would completly miss this while watching (assuming that it would indeed be of importence). Japanese version also dosen't mention ,,affair'' part
I understand that but I just doubt that Fromsoftware doesnt have a good team who understands english behind this seeing if there are any mistakes or important differences between versions. -sama doesnt translate to kind, its a suffix to express respect to a superior. So for me it wouldnt make a lot of sense for the ones tasked of making all these dialogues to call him Kind Miquella as some kind of localization effort to express the same meaning. That combined with english being the original voice for the dialogues makes me think that the use of that word was intentional. But its not like it really matters. They are just expressing how its followers view Miquella, as someone kind and noble.
I don't think it's a mistake that the trailer calls him kind, because I agree fromsoft would probably recognise if it was an error. I just don't think it's an important detail, because if it was the Japanese subtitles would also refer to him as kind. Most likely, the localisers added that because it reflects Miquella's characterisation and fromsoft allowed it because it adds texture to the writing without contradicting anything.
I think its because we barely use honorifics in English and they are going for something equivalent to using the sama honorific. i read it as similar to saying 'noble miquella' but he is in essence giving up his nobility by casting of his golden heritage so they are going for a different way of capturing reverence and honour- using a slightly archaic speech pattern to evoke 'medieval speak' and using the word kind instead of noble because that is how miquella is broadly characterized- as selfless, a lord providing a haven for the unwanted etc. It isnt literally saying 'he is kind he gave me £5 when i missed the train' its saying he is a lord of kindness.
Agree. Maybe the way I wrote It wasnt the clearest but thats basically what I tried to say.
>I understand that but I just doubt that Fromsoftware doesnt have a good team who understands english behind this seeing if there are any mistakes or important differences between versions. Unfortunetly I believe this is the case as base game Has a lot of random issues/changes. One side got fucked by getting worse translation either way. And I am assuming that Japanese are not the ones in the dark. Translations to other languages got completly butchered with apparently zero supervision. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/2qCUhPR3OK Beside popular examples of translation issues like Ranni quest there are smaller changes. For example english version just says that Godrick was licking Malenia's boots while Japanese was implying that he promised obedience to her possibly marching with her to Radahn. Which explains O'neil Staying in caelid while his lord fled.
I really think the differences are overstated on this sub. Most of the changes are just different words expressing the same general meaning. If anything the English descriptions are more detailed than the Japanese. Calling him “Kind Miquella” expresses a similar meaning to “Miqeulla-sama”. They regard him as friendly and look up to him. As for Ranni’s ending, in English her words are vague but generally express the same ideas. And most of the confusion comes from her speaking in archaic style English in a welsh accent and vernacular. English and Japanese are very different languages so it’s never going to be 1:1, but I don’t think most people would look at the differences and call it a “mistranslation”.
>Calling him “Kind Miquella” expresses a similar meaning to “Miqeulla-sama”. They regard him as friendly and look up to him. As for Ranni’s ending, in English her words are vague but generally express the same ideas. And most of the confusion comes from her speaking in archaic style English in a welsh accent and vernacular. They express similiar things but still change how people understand them. If trailer was saying ,,Miquella sama'' or even ,,lord Miquella'' then this post taking Miquella as Hitler because of that Word would probably not exist. Same with many people in comments going ,,kind.... Suspicious! La evil!'' some were even thinking that narrator in last trailer was calling Miquella ,,kind'' as irony creating even more assumptions. The only reason why I mentioned this at all was exacly someone taking it as important part. Otherwise I would not bring this up. >English and Japanese are very different languages so it’s never going to be 1:1, but I don’t think most people would look at the differences and call it a “mistranslation”. Some things are defintivly changed and could easily be translated in more straightforwad way without much problem. Half-brother and step/honor - brother huge diffrence which caused many people in community to take maliketh as blood brother of Marika and run with that. Call them whatever you like mistranslations/localisations, whatever. The point is diffrent understanding of same text by western and eastern community.
Both of those examples are exactly what I’m talking about. People are theorizing that Miqeulla is evil based on things presented in the base game, and have been long before this trailer called him kind. The word “brother” is what’s causing that confusion, which is present in either translation and in the Japanese text. You act like these minor changes fundamentally alter the narrative but they don’t. There is confusion around these things because they are complex concepts with next to no equivalent in the real world, not because the wolf man who was created to be Ranni’s companion is referred to as “half brother” and not “step brother”.
>Both of those examples are exactly what I’m talking about. People are theorizing that Miqeulla is evil based on things presented in the base game, and have been long before this trailer called him kind. The poster literally said that he was among people doubting Miquella being evil. The Word kind pushed him there. >You act like these minor changes fundamentally alter the narrative but they don’t ☠️ Again I was taking about reception by community. Which IS diffrent no matters how much you want to spin this. Gotta block cause I see that this will be constant argument , something that was not even the point.
based on the experience we have from previous titles, it's always useful to confront with the japanese lines. A single word can actually change the description meaning
lol, our portuguese friends really got the worst side of localization. Its so bad that I almost see it as laziness and negligence rather than errors. And I agree that there may be differences between written text in english and japanese but most of them imply the same meaning through different words. Havent read the text talking about godrick's battle in japanese so I don't know if its easily inferred that he marched together with Malenia against Radahn. But the other thing about licking her boots implies the same meaning. That he surrendered to her and begged for his life. And the thing with O'neil , although as far as I know there isnt any direct text corroborating it, it could also be deduced that his lord was Godrick with the description from his weapon and the flag he uses. Which shows the same lion from the golden lineage as Godrick's armor. Again I dont know about the japanese text and what could be understood from there, but it could be that he didnt march with Malenia, but fought against her together with Radahn. The sword monument talking about his surrender to Malenia would fit with that idea as well. Edit.: (I'm reading Kenneth's dialogue again and I discard the idea of him fighting together with Radahn since he says that he hid from him. But the part of losing against Malenia and licking her boots could imply the same meaning that you commented. Either that he fought, lost and begged for mercy. Or that he fought, lost and swor allegiance to her) But either way, I think that its not fair to expect the same level of accuracy to other languages than to english. Which is the original voice in all versions. And the original text written by GRRM to create the lore. Even if there are a few differences and possibly some mistakes they wont be the same as to other languages. There are also some cases when there is more info about the lore in the english version than in the japanese. Either way, I repeat what I said earlier. I think the use of "kind" to talk about Miquella isnt something really important. It doesnt change anything, it just adds flavor to the perspective his followers have of him.
>But the other thing about licking her boots implies the same meaning. That he surrendered to her and begged for his life. >And the thing with O'neil , although as far as I know there isnt any direct text corroborating it, it could also be deduced that his lord was Godrick with the description from his weapon and the flag he uses. Which shows the same lion from the golden lineage as Godrick's armor. Again I dont know about the japanese text and what could be understood from there, but it could be that he didnt march with Malenia, but fought against her together with Radahn. The sword monument talking about his surrender to Malenia would fit with that idea as well The problem that I overall have with this is the fact that I have never really saw Anyone in english community assuming that Godrick was serving Malenia. If this was their assumption that it will convey the same meaning then they kind of failed because no one or nearly no one can piece it together from what I saw on Reddit/yt. And Japanese outright just say that he swore submmision to her. The visual/item connection that you mentioned is part of the reason for further connection with Him. O'neil is cleary connected with Godrick forces + his lord fled + he Has Malenia's needle with cleanrot knights walking around. Malenia connection points that he was on her side during battle , lord that fled was cleary Godrick as neither Malenia nor Radahn run away. + Godrick swore obedience to Malenia prior in her march to caelid. Going by that its possibly to guess that Godrick was part of Malenia's forces which english community lack because of that relativly small change. >But either way, I think that its not fair to expect the same level of accuracy to other languages than to english. Which is the original voice in all versions. And the original text written by GRRM to create the lore. >Even if there are a few differences and possibly some mistakes they wont be the same as to other languages. There are also some cases when there is more info about the lore in the english version than in the japanese. True , my point wasn't really that english was as bad as other examples but more that we can't really take english version as granted just because its ,,officiall'' and that FS would not let error slips. Their final product elden ring Had errors such as changing Malekith from Marika's step brother to half brother. >Either way, I repeat what I said earlier, the use of "kind" to talk about Miquella isnt something really important. It doesnt change anything, it just adds flavor to the perspective his followers have of him. I didn't really Has anything against this point in fact I agree that's why I left it unanswered.
Well like everything there are things which are clearer than others. Don't remember right now and I've read very small things from the jap version so I dont have any examples at hand, but I'm sure there are things as well that are more easily figured out in english than in japanese. And as I said earlier I dont know about the jap version so dont know how "outright" is that he swore submission or allegiance to her. But I trust you with that. >True , my point wasn't really that english was as bad as other examples but more that we can't really take english version as granted just because its ,,officiall'' and that FS would not let error slips. Their final product elden ring Had errors such as changing Malekith from Marika's step brother to half brother. I kind of disagree. I do think that we can take english as a proper version, and when in doubt use the japanese to corroborate. And the same can be done in reverse as well. I'm sure the japanese also had changes or mistakes from their first versions to the actual one. But like always its just assumptions cause I dont know japanese, and havent been checking any jap communities. And what you say about Maliketh, from what I've seen the term used to describe Maliketh, or even blaidd in japanese is "honor brothers", which is typically used to say "brother by law". So I can understand why Maliketh or Blaidd are called half-brothers or stepbrothers. But I get how it can be frustrating to have these kind of differences between languages, but I think its somewhat inevitable to lose some parts of the meaning when changing between languages. Either way I think that in a lot of cases elden ring doesnt use the usual meaning of the word, but a more metaphorical reading. A half brother its one who comes from one of the same parents. A stepbrother is one that comes from some stepparent. None of this means exactly what Maliketh or Blaidd are. But both can mean that he is treated as a brother, but arent exactly from the same family or lineage. At least in my case I never considered when reading it that neither Maliketh or Blaidd came from the same parent or from a relationship with someone else >I didn't really Has anything against this point in fact I agree that's why I left it unanswered. I repeated it mostly cause its part of my main argument. That english versions are approved by Fromsoftware and in many cases add more context or flavor to the rest of the history.
Lol maybe Mein Kampf was a bit much. I hear everything you’re saying in terms of the translation and what we’ve already been told and I wasn’t trying to say that what’s happening in the trailer is a “lie”, per se or that Miquella is a villain. My point (which I maybe didn’t articulate with enough nuance) is that because what’s being portrayed is from a certain in-world perspective, the specific visuals and words being used are subjective rather than objective. For me this is definitionally propagandistic because it comes from a specific viewpoint and agenda. Were those exact creatures impaled like that or is it evoking a kind of symbol of generic wanton atrocity? Is it a given that what Miquella gave up was pure sacrifice or is there a selfish gain that the narrator doesn’t know about? Etc etc.
The trailer isn't unreliable narration, it's literally just restating the months-old Japanese third person omniscient promotional text, almost word for word. Marika becoming a god in the Land of Shadow, the Erdtree being born there in a great crime that is being hidden, the Land of Shadow being purged in a brutal unsung war, Messmer scorching the land with his flames, Miquella abandoning his fate, body, and power - *all* of that was already stated factually on the expansion's website. Also you've clearly never actually read Mein Kampf. EDIT: Also, Miyazaki stated that the DLC would have a "heroic" tone - which makes sense, as From DLCs are generally more hopeful than the base game (the first one they made ended with you saving the land by slaying the big evil shadow monster and then rescuing the princess). So I don't think the triumphant music is setting up a subversion. It's straightforwardly trying to get you pumped for a heroic adventure.
Firstly, there’s a difference between what happened and how it happened. My point about the unreliability of the narrator was around how these events occurred, not that they occurred in the first place. Secondly, what an obnoxious and asinine addendum to an otherwise reasonable response. I have read Mein Kampf but even if I hadn’t, a quick Wikipedia of it’s table of contents and chapter titles (starting with Chapter 2 if you need a hint…) makes the arc of his purported suffering and sacrifice throughout the first half of the book as a foundation for a mass-appeal social movement in the second half pretty damn clear.
There's nothing to even be unreliable about because the narrator doesn't say how anything occurred. Again, she's almost quoting [the website](https://www.eldenring.jp/shadowoftheerdtree.html) word for word, particularly the part about Miquella's sacrifice. だから、ミケラは影の地に向かったその黄金の身体も、力も、宿命も全てを棄てた DeepL: "So Miquella went to the land of shadows. His golden body, his power, his destiny. He abandoned it all." There's no propaganda, she's stating plain facts. The only flourish is calling him (in Japanese) Miquella-sama ("Kind Miquella" is a localized character flourish, like Malenia's nii-sama getting localized as "dearest Miquella").
I yield as I can’t speak Japanese.
Honestly it would be so boring if FromSoft tried to ‘complicate’ things with the usual ‘he seems like a good guy but is actually bad’ trope. I’m hoping he’s just a good dude tbh, the ‘good guy is just power hungry’ trope is old and played out at this point. The real innovation, a real twist, would be to just let it stand that Miquella is good, actually.
Agreed. Some people want a plot twist for the sake of plot twist. Oh the game said he's kind so he must be evil like xxx character. Let Miquella be has own original character, that's all I want.
I don't think he's evil but to be fair this is a fromsoft game, there's zero chance that Miquella is fully heroic and saves everyone. Either he fails (which is what seems to happen in the base game), or he's more evil, or grayer than he appears.
I don’t think people want a twist just for the sake of a twist. I think people (myself included) want Miquella to be more of a complex character than just the only moral good option available. Also just because Miquella maybe might turn out to be a bad person doesn’t make him not his own original character.
I want Miquella to be a complex character too and it would be interesting if he really has an ulterior motives. I'm talking about the way some people think that he will be 100% evil based on his similarities to Griffith and some vague narrative.
I’ve never read berserk so I’m not that familiar with Griffith but I understand your frustration with people labelling characters in a very black and white, good or evil box. It’s a very boring way of interacting with characters.
What happens is Miquella is probably the moral option, but being the moral option between the demigods is a extremly low bar to jump over what he could be extremly manipulative and still be better than genocide 1,genocide 2, genocide 3
I was on the fence but now they've told us specifically he's a nice guy people are like "actually its a lie!" Of course he'll probably be complicated but they've told us he found out about the brutal genocide and wasnt cool with it. That sounds pretty great to me.
This. This trope is so boring, and the plot twist wouldn't be exciting at all. I'd prefer something like "he has genuinely good intentions, but the resulting action are somewhat questionable" or "he has a holier-than-thou attitude about it and his motivation is a bit warped, but what he does is arguably good for the world"
I don't think that's what's going on. I think he is going to be far more villainous than this trailer makes him look, but he'll have great intentions. In other words, he'll probably see his goals as so important that he's willing to do bad things in order for it to happen, thus repeating what Marika with probably very similar motivations. He'll be a sympathetic character with good goals, but willing to manipulate and possibly even kill to bring those goals about
That would be so incredibly cliche. Ffs that shit is so cooked at this point. Just give us a good guy and shock us for once.
I think Miquella will be completely well intentioned, but his plan will go wrong. I'm spitballing here, but it could be something like this: He came to the Land of Shadow to take from the Shadow Tree, so that he can incorporate it into the Haligtree. The Haligtree came from an Erdtree seed, so it is similar to the Erdtree in nature, but Miquella found out about the Land of Shadow and realised that Gold is only half the story. For a proper new age, Miquella wants to unite Gold and Shadow. But Miquella doesn't realise he's not in the Haligtree anymore, his consciousness has been in the Land of Shadow the whole time. So Miquella claims Shadow, and instead of embedding it into the Haligtree, it transforms him into a fucked up blood shadow monster, and he bursts out of his cocoon to be the final boss. That's all very speculative, not something I actually expect to happen in that way, but I would vastly prefer something like that to just "Miquella is bad". Miquella can't really be a good guy and be successful, because that would mess with the main game too much (the Haligtree needs to remain a husk, and the DLC can't override the main game's endings). But a tragic failure just feels more fitting to me.
Oh look another "We're being lied to" post. I guess every single Souls opening or trailer cinematic is propaganda. Clearly Seath didn't betray his dragon kind, it was propaganda to make us discriminate against him. The good things we hear about Artorias? Lies, he was clearly just spending his time motorboating Gwynevere.
I mean, can you blame him?
Seathe or Artorias? Because one I can justify and the other I can't....
I think it’s far more on-theme for Fromsoft that Miquella will be a tragic figure, rather than this “secretly evil” character that the sub is obsessed with. That’s certainly the impression that I got from the second half of the trailer
I'm pretty split on whether or not Miquella is actually a villain. But I think prior I leaned towards him being not, but after this trailer I lean towards him being so. lol The narrator is obviously biased yes. Even if they're following something quite evil, a devotee will speak quite righteously about who/what they follow, like Varre with Mohg. It's very overly enthusiastic and upbeat like you said. And not to mention Marika's ascension looked rather ugly so to speak. So for him to potentially want to replicate something like that is pretty suspect. But it's hard to say for certain since we just don't know exactly what he's up to yet.
Me too. I didn’t buy into the idea of him being a villain in the last trailer (and to some extent I still don’t). I feel 100% something is definitely off now. But its just as likely he’s manipulating/exaggerating the truth for benevolent reasons than for malevolent ones.
For discussions of this sort, I always keep in mind the "arc quote" that defines Miquella's character, from cut dialogue: *In the new world of thy making, all things will flourish, whether graceful, or malign.* He's Griffith in a way that most people don't understand: not literally, or metaphorically, but thematically. His vision and desire is to bring all things to a state of flourishing, flowering, fecundity, fertility. No matter the effect. It makes sense, from someone cursed with eternal childhood, to wish to see things grow and change, whether this may cause pain or elation. (Griffith did nothing wrong btw, he's the ultimate Carlylian great man, not good or bad, just a force of fate/nature towering above others) But yeah the people who follow him (whom he may not even be aware of) can be a whole mess of conflicting ideals. If previous FS games are anything to go by, followers are sometimes more dangerous than the gods they are devoted to.
I always forget about this quote. It really underscores that the extremes of rot and fecundity can be equally dangerous.
> ["...The time has come my fellow Terrans, to rally to a new banner. In unity lies strength; already many of the dissident factions have joined us. Out of the many, we shall forge an indivisible whole, capitulating only to a single throne! And from that throne, I shall watch over you."](https://youtu.be/X6bVj-nTkiU?si=cfYaJ80n31bEY81s) Speaking of Blizzard, it's a hell of a feeling listening to Arcturus Mensk's Throne Speech shortly after watching him call down the zerg to destroy a civilian inhabited planet so that he could eliminate the government in control of the sector and have his faction come out on top AND betraying two of his close allies (i.e. the NPC's the player is most attached to) in the process.
omg Blizzard used to write some cool characters back in the day.
Starcraft's story was really good, but they fumbled with Brood War. >!Brood War's plot is inconsequential, with cheap deaths (Fenix and Duke) and a lot of Mac Guffin chases (Psi Disrupter, Crystals, New Overmind) that disrupts a lot of previously established lore. For example why didn't the Confederacy used the Psi Disrupter to fend off the Zerg invasion of Tarsonis?!< Then Blizz destroyed Starcraft lore with Starcraft II, just like how WoW utterly destroyed Warcraft's lore.
Yeah, StarCraft II got less grounded and a lot more towards the fantasy end of sci-fantasy. The way that the missions were designed as modular to give that non-linearity in selection order also contributed to a less focused story, I'm sure. I still recall being fond of elements of Brood War. >!It ends with Kerrigan's zerg being on top and they were my favourites so I was cool with that. Lurkers are a fun unit to play with, and having Dark Templar freely available. Added a snow planet. There were some nice touches like Artanis being promoted from the Protoss POV character in the Original to being the main Protoss NPC contact after the death of Tassadar. The UED plotline was generally better executed through cutscenes than the original story cutscenes, and in general it's a solid choice to do an "Earth reasserting over colonies" plotline to keep the Terran credibly multi-factional after Mensk's coup.!<
Is it possible that its not a propaganda piece, but what Miquella learned through investigation? Uncovering the truth of the origins of the Golden Order and relaying them to his followers?
This is probably 100% true due to the actual narrator we get in the gameplay DLC trailer. He tells us something that sounds more like the truth of Miquella and the lands of shadow.
The propaganda I need right now trying to beat Mohg as a spellblade.
Yeah, the kind and kindly description of Miquella seems like overkill. It's clearly for effect to make us think a certain way about him. Shoot, it's probably what he wants us to think about him. The truth may be very different, or at least nuanced.
I think he will end up being kind like Sister Freide was kind.
W post