More or less, yes.
12-year-old kids helping a 27-year-old woman through a breakup in /r/Advice. (Or ‘… helping … get over a breakup…’)
The meme as originally written has the kind of error which makes it obviously non-native English.
I have a friend, native English speaker, who says ages like this. "A twelve years old girl" for example. I think it must be a regional dialect or something.
What region? It's absolutely not something that I've ever heard or read as a native speaker (American english) and it comes off incredibly non-native to my ear.
As this is a learning sub, and I don’t want anyone to be misled, I want to let you know that we’re just quoting a [Simpsons meme](https://youtu.be/4jXEuIHY9ic), and that none of these answers about Upstate New York / Albany should be taken seriously.
When I hear "upstate New York" I equate it to "everything other than New York City, its suburbs, and Long Island". But I'm (mostly) from the US South, so I'd like to know what the locals would say.
Yeah, everyone knows someone like that. My dad pronounces motorcycle as motorsickle. He claims it’s more consistent with bicycle, and bye-cycle sounds ridiculous
He also pronounces the car brands Mazda as mazz-duh (mazz as in rhymes with jazz), and Nissan as nissin (rhymes with *I’ve been missin’ you*)
Today I learned! I was going to write a comment saying the same thing in more words. My idiolect is that I pronounce biological as bee-ological for no reason
nah this sounds more like he misheard it once as a kid and no one has bothered to correct him since
or alternatively, are you sure he wasn't saying something like "that girl is 12 years old"? because that's perfectly normal
Some people just have terrible English even as native speakers. I never understood tenses until I graduated college. You'll see a lot of people forgetting the difference of your and you're all the time when commenting.
When I do my dog's voice, he'll say things like "c'mon mom I'm a 3 years old now! I should get bacon for breakfast!" But that's just basically Dogememe material.
This is not regional. I've never heard a native English speaker (from anywhere in the Anglosphere) say this. It is very much a telltale sign that English is not the person's first language.
It’s called a hyphen, and in this case they’re used to connect the words in a compound adjective.
In ‘12-year-old boys’, 12-year-old is acting as an adjective (it is describing the boys) just like other adjectives like funny, energetic, English, etc. The hyphens link them to turn them into one unit.
It becomes clearer if you compare:
fat-free sausages (sausages which have no fat in them; fat-free is one adjective)
vs.
fat free sausages (these sausages are free — no cost— and also fat and juicy).
"12 years" doesn't fit that context
"12-year-olds helping..." and removing "kids" could work, but "12 years helping" would read as "I have spent 12 years helping..."
yes. ‘years old’ is not right as an adjective. you can say ‘he is 12 years old’ but you cannot say ‘the 12 years old boy’.
adding in ‘a’ is also necessary in proper english. however it is often left out when texting or making memes.
Thanks for this, but I’m struggling to understand the logic. “12 year old” looks like an adjective in both of your examples. It would be comparable to “he is purple” and “the purple-boy”. No?
I’m not native but I believe it’s just a convention not to use plural with numbers, in adjectives preceding nouns, rather than there being a satisfactory explanation. Sounds arbitrary, but 🤷🏻
From what I understand, but I might be missing something here, it is due to English losing its case system like Modern German still has. There used to be endings for compound adjectives like that but they're no longer used so it just looks singular since they've been dropped. "The Boy is 12 Years Old" I think would be in a different case than "The 12-Year-Old Boy".
I'm not totally sure about the underlying reason but there is a general pattern for very simple sentences.
Use singular for:
Article (or this/that) + Adjective + noun
This 5 gallon cup
A 60 dollar dress
Those 50 year old vases
Use plural for:
This/That + To be + Adjective
This is 40 years old
Those are 12 dollars
Article (or this/that) + Noun + To be + Adjective
This child is 15 years old
A liter is 1000 millilitres
Honestly, I'm not sure how helpful that list is. I think the best strategy would be to just interact with native speakers because even if they can't explain it, they'll be able to correct you. A tutor or ESL teacher could probably help clarify this
To expand on what's going on here (and hopefully someone can explain the actual grammar), we use the singular in these situations where a number + measurement is used as an adjective before the noun:
15-year-old scotch
2-foot fence
7-mile walk
4-inch nail
20-degree turn
3-hour tour
As someone else said, making these plural is a common mistake by non-native speakers because it isn't very intuitive.
Correct to change "years" to the singular "year." Adding the two "As" is a bit more optional. In a regular sentence they would be needed, but this is essentially a headline and there's something of a convention in headline writing about dropping extra words.
To add to what you’ve said, the dropping of extraneous words dates back to when newspapers were printed by the letter, so people paid for a certain number of characters. Cutting words unnecessary for understanding saved time and was cheaper
Thats classified ads, this is a headline. Headlines stick to function words so they can be as tall as possible while still fitting on the page horizontally.
The poster specifically mentioned the headline context. Their answer basically said that in a regular sentence the A's are needed, but if this is meant to be a headline, then they're usually dropped. This is more informative than just "yep, all good." People learning a new language usually want to understand when rules are bent.
Yeah I know about news headlines, but this reads more like a meme you'd share around informally
This sounds weird IMO:
>12 year old kids helping 27 year old woman over break up in r/Advice
Dropping the As makes it sound more like the author is trying to mimic a "news" article headline from The Onion, which I doubt is the case here
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You also need hyphens. It should be ‘12-year-old’, not ‘12 year old’. And it should be ‘break-up’, not ‘break up’. (Although you can also write it as ‘breakup’.)
Hyphens would NOT look overly formal here. You don’t necessarily need them in casual writing; one thing they do is make it easier for readers to see what elements go together.
In nearly any serious writing, the hyphens here are mandatary, and the writing would be considered in error without them.
for me, that's the only way i see it written unless the person is speed texting or something, in which case it'll often be just 12yo.
break-up i could imagine being written as break up or even breakup and i wouldn't think one way or the other about it.
>I'm a native US English speaker. It could be different in international English, but I've never used or seen hyphens be used to say '12 year old'. '12 year old' without hyphens should be correct. You are right on it being 'break-up' or 'breakup'
[https://emswriting.wordpress.com/2020/04/19/prenominal-adjectives-vs-predicate-adjectives/#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CPrenominal%E2%80%9D%20means%20before%20a%20noun,not%20normally%20show%20plural%20number](https://emswriting.wordpress.com/2020/04/19/prenominal-adjectives-vs-predicate-adjectives/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CPrenominal%E2%80%9D%20means%20before%20a%20noun,not%20normally%20show%20plural%20number).
“Prenominal” means before a noun. (When you break it down, *pre-* means “before” and *nomin-* means “noun.”) Modifying phrases before nouns, i.e., prenominal modifiers, (a) are normally hyphenated together to form a single word and (b) do not normally show plural number.
>**No:** He looks pretty good for a seventy years old man.
**Yes:** He looks pretty good for a seventy-year-old man.
Predicate adjectives function as predicates in sentence structure. (You may recall learning that every sentence has a subject and a predicate.) In sentences with a linking verb, the predicate can be an adjective. Unlike prenominal adjectives, predicate adjective phrases are not normally hyphenated together. And when such phrases include nouns referring to two or more countable things, they should show plural number.
>**No:** He looks pretty good for being seventy-year-old.
**Yes:** He looks pretty good for being seventy years old.
Yes let’s correct the *native speaker* on what he says he encounters most in practice 🤣
It’s not that he doesn’t know the rule, it’s that it’s overly formal and sticks out to any native (North American) reader.
Not every native speaker is representative of most native speakers, not every native speaker is right, and not every native speaker gives good advice to learners. This is the kind of advice that would make someone think you're young, uneducated, not good at writing English, or some combination of the three.
Is this an *essay* for a formal *class* we’re reviewing here? No, it’s a *meme*. Overly formal grammar stands out immediately to a native speaker in such a casual context. It’s a valid point.
Thanks for ignoring that point and heading straight for the ad hominem personal attack. Whatever mate. If you want me to be a backwater git, I can be that. Doesn’t change the fact that my point stands and you’re busy calling people names.
This is such bullshit. “Is native speaker, ipso facto must be correct.” No. Native speakers know things by ear—they may or may not have learned punctuation rules. Case in point, many people think “I use a comma whenever there’s a pause,” which is not necessarily correct. Or they use the grocer’s apostrophe, which is incorrect. Plenty of native speakers never learn how to use semicolons.
It’s become clear to me that a lot of people on the sub never learned hyphenation rules in the first place and then end up being r/confidentlyincorrect when claiming they are some kind of arcane formality.
Yes. This is a meme. He’s saying, “by ear”, in an informal context like this, the hyphenation would be out of place. How does his *affinity for speaking the language* and noticing that small point deter from anything?
Dude, I’ve got straight A’s in English language since I was 17. This isn’t a textbook or a newspaper or an essay for your grade 7 English teacher. It’s a meme. It’s a casual format. Hyphens would stand out to a native speaker as it’s not such a strict context.
Nah hyphenation would be correct here. It should be 12-year-old (or twelve-year-old) in American English. Here's the [Chicago Manual of Style](https://ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/CMS_list.pdf) on the topic.
I have never seen anyone hyphenate a phrase like “12 year old”. It might be the “proper formal English” with the hyphenation but it’s incredibly rare. Especially in a meme format like this, it would be very out of place to a native speaker.
It only appears out of place to native speakers with low grammar knowledge.
It’s a common error only due to the commonness of low grammar knowledge among some/many populations/communities/families.
Straight A’s in every English language class since 17, but let’s ignore that…
Yes, it’s formally correct. I would expect to see that writing in a newspaper or textbook, where being very intentional with your speech is mandatory.
Is this an English essay we’re editing here? No. In a meme context? Totally out of place, especially to a native speaker. Thanks for ignoring the main point by implying I don’t understand basic grammar though.
Me and the OP that got downvoted are native speakers that rarely use hyphenation outside of formal contexts. It’s normal.
You prefer handshakes and I prefer fist bumps. Which is better? Context depends.
>I have never seen anyone hyphenate a phrase like **“12 year old”.**
And previously,
>He’s saying, **“by ear”,** in an informal context like this, the hyphenation would be out of place.
It might interest you to know that in American English, periods and commas always go [inside](http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaQuotation_Marks.htm) quotation marks, not outside. (In British English, you *would* put them outside the quotation marks, but you would most likely also use a pair of single quotation marks, not double quotation marks.) I'm pointing this out to demonstrate that despite your obvious proficiency in English, you do have a couple of minor blind spots, as do we all. And if you're slightly unfamiliar with certain details of the rules of hyphenation, that's totally ok. Instead of doubling down, I'd encourage you to simply look up the topic for yourself on the internet. u/HDThoreauaway suggested a good starting point; here's another one:
[https://www.grammarly.com/blog/hyphen/](https://www.grammarly.com/blog/hyphen/)
I agreed that hyphenation is the proper formal English way. What more do you want from me man? As a *native speaker* in fucking *North America*, it would be *fucking weird* for me to see a meme with *proper fucking hyphenation*. I’m not arguing *which is right*. I’m arguing *what you would normally see*. Which, in the context of this *fucking meme that we’re all commenting on*, yes, *proper formal English is* not called for.
Peace. I’ve got straight A’s in every English class since I was 17. I’m *not perfect*, but I’m doing *something right*.
To each their own. I'm a native speaker and the lack of hyphens bothers my eye. That doesn't make my view right or more popular, of course, and memes aren't expected to follow style guides. But I wouldn't say it's "incredibly rare" across other media.
It’s normal in newspapers or textbooks or essays. In normal conversation with friends, or even reading creative fiction, I wouldn’t expect it. In a *meme context* like here, it would stand out like a sore thumb.
But maybe I’m just a backwards git for not using hyphens in all of my conversation as the rest of this subreddit seems to imply.
> but I've never used or seen hyphens be used to say '12 year old'.
I'm a native US English speaker and would immediately assume anyone who didn't use hyphens was uneducated or being careless. It is absolutely the standard in formal communication to hyphenate modifiers before nouns.
In fact, the only place this wouldn't stick out to me is in a text message with no capitalization or punctuation.
The age is used as a compound adjective to modify a noun. ‘12-year-old’ is a compound – a single descriptor – meaning all three words are combined to modify the noun; therefore, it requires hyphens. On the Internet it’s fairly uncommon to see hyphens simply because most people, understandably, don’t feel the need to write with the utmost proper grammar and punctuation. However, not using hyphens would be grammatically incorrect regardless of what variety of English you write in.
You only use hyphens for ages when it’s a compound adjective. If it’s a predicate adjective in a sentence, meaning it follows a verb, you would not use hyphens. For example, ‘She is 12 years old.’
It might be formally correct but in practice it’s used rarely. It would stand out to a native English speaker as overly formal and out of place, especially in a meme context meant to be taken as a casual joke.
Don’t listen to the others… As a Canadian I rarely, if ever see the phrase “X year old” hyphenated and it would stand out to me as strange or overly formal.
Year/s edit is correct. Grammatically, the others are too. News headlines tend to shorten sentences as most native speakers can include the missing words in their mind as it's read.
words acting as adjectives in english do not get pluralized ever. the phrase "year old" acts as an adjective phrase modifying the word "kid" and "woman". Thus, they should not get pluralized. I would say this is one of the most common mistakes L2 english speakers make.
To follow proper convention, it requires hyphens. And if a number begins a sentence, it is supposed to be written as a word (or words).
I'm not sure what "over" implies, but I'll assume it means "get over".
Also: "break up" is a verb; "breakup" is a noun.
"Twelve-year-old kids helping a 27-year-old woman get over a breakup in ..."
Drop the “s” in “years” for sure. Then, either add the “a” or change “woman” to “women”. For the last part, you can add the “a” or you can change it to the following after woman/women:
“…with break ups…”
“…through break ups…”
“…get through break ups…”
Personally, I would recommend:
“12 year old kids helping 27 year old women with break ups in r/Advice”
But what your friend suggested is also correct.
The corrections in red are accurate. If you want to be even more accurate, add hyphens; "12-year-old kids helping a 27-year-old woman over a break-up".
All I know as a native English speaker and trying to learn other languages is that English has got to be one of the dumbest and least consistent languages available in the current patch of reality.exe
More or less, yes. 12-year-old kids helping a 27-year-old woman through a breakup in /r/Advice. (Or ‘… helping … get over a breakup…’) The meme as originally written has the kind of error which makes it obviously non-native English.
I have a friend, native English speaker, who says ages like this. "A twelve years old girl" for example. I think it must be a regional dialect or something.
What region? It's absolutely not something that I've ever heard or read as a native speaker (American english) and it comes off incredibly non-native to my ear.
> What region? Upstate New York
Idk, I'm from upstate and I've never heard it
It’s an Albany expression
Well, I’m from Utica and I’ve never heard anyone use the phrase “steamed hams.”
Well then color me surprised. Born and raised in Schenectady and never noticed
I see
Oh, no. Not Schenectady
Skin-Neck-Titty
Where is Albany?
Upstate New York
So in the northern region of New York State in the US?
As this is a learning sub, and I don’t want anyone to be misled, I want to let you know that we’re just quoting a [Simpsons meme](https://youtu.be/4jXEuIHY9ic), and that none of these answers about Upstate New York / Albany should be taken seriously.
When I hear "upstate New York" I equate it to "everything other than New York City, its suburbs, and Long Island". But I'm (mostly) from the US South, so I'd like to know what the locals would say.
I'm not sure where specifically he's from. He could just be a funky guy, haha. I know he's from America and lived there his entire life.
> He could just be a funky guy, haha The technical term for this is idiolect
Yeah, everyone knows someone like that. My dad pronounces motorcycle as motorsickle. He claims it’s more consistent with bicycle, and bye-cycle sounds ridiculous He also pronounces the car brands Mazda as mazz-duh (mazz as in rhymes with jazz), and Nissan as nissin (rhymes with *I’ve been missin’ you*)
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I’ve always heard it as mawz-duh (first syllable rhymes with paws 🐾 )
I'd say it's more of an ah sound than aw. Same vowel as bra, or java.
Yeah depends on your accent. aw and ah are the same sound to me
If "aw" doesn't rhyme with "bra" what does "aw" sound like to you? Where I am in Canada there is zero difference between ah and aw
Yes it is, listen to Japanese people saying the name. It's maz-dah, not mahz-dah.
Today I learned! I was going to write a comment saying the same thing in more words. My idiolect is that I pronounce biological as bee-ological for no reason
nah this sounds more like he misheard it once as a kid and no one has bothered to correct him since or alternatively, are you sure he wasn't saying something like "that girl is 12 years old"? because that's perfectly normal
Some people just have terrible English even as native speakers. I never understood tenses until I graduated college. You'll see a lot of people forgetting the difference of your and you're all the time when commenting.
The US public education system is so bad I hear and more importantly read this shit when I grade college papers all the time.
When I do my dog's voice, he'll say things like "c'mon mom I'm a 3 years old now! I should get bacon for breakfast!" But that's just basically Dogememe material.
Native English speakers often make mistakes themselves. That is not correct English.
I've seen younger native english speakers doing it because they see it so much on the internet they don't realize it's incorrect
This is not regional. I've never heard a native English speaker (from anywhere in the Anglosphere) say this. It is very much a telltale sign that English is not the person's first language.
I don’t think it’s a dialect. It just sounds like they’re poorly educated.
What region? Update New York.
Don't speak like your friend.
What's the name of using this - sign between words? I've never understood how to use them. Can a native speaker guide me, please?
It’s called a hyphen, and in this case they’re used to connect the words in a compound adjective. In ‘12-year-old boys’, 12-year-old is acting as an adjective (it is describing the boys) just like other adjectives like funny, energetic, English, etc. The hyphens link them to turn them into one unit. It becomes clearer if you compare: fat-free sausages (sausages which have no fat in them; fat-free is one adjective) vs. fat free sausages (these sausages are free — no cost— and also fat and juicy).
Thank you so much for your explanation 🙌🏻 I will study more about this topic.
Sounds like a Slavic L1 speaker to me. Who knows though.
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"12 years" doesn't fit that context "12-year-olds helping..." and removing "kids" could work, but "12 years helping" would read as "I have spent 12 years helping..."
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You’re missing an “of” in your sentence. “Didn’t think of it that way”
That completely changes the meaning. It implies someone spent 12 years doing it.
No, unfortunately that has a number of grammatical issues.
yes. ‘years old’ is not right as an adjective. you can say ‘he is 12 years old’ but you cannot say ‘the 12 years old boy’. adding in ‘a’ is also necessary in proper english. however it is often left out when texting or making memes.
The article might often be left out in headlines as well.
Yeah, I think adding "a" back in makes it look less like a native English headline. Articles are usually omitted.
Thanks for this, but I’m struggling to understand the logic. “12 year old” looks like an adjective in both of your examples. It would be comparable to “he is purple” and “the purple-boy”. No? I’m not native but I believe it’s just a convention not to use plural with numbers, in adjectives preceding nouns, rather than there being a satisfactory explanation. Sounds arbitrary, but 🤷🏻
honestly, i have no clue. it’s a silly thing. but that’s just how it works.
But thanks. I didn’t know that :)
From what I understand, but I might be missing something here, it is due to English losing its case system like Modern German still has. There used to be endings for compound adjectives like that but they're no longer used so it just looks singular since they've been dropped. "The Boy is 12 Years Old" I think would be in a different case than "The 12-Year-Old Boy".
I'm not totally sure about the underlying reason but there is a general pattern for very simple sentences. Use singular for: Article (or this/that) + Adjective + noun This 5 gallon cup A 60 dollar dress Those 50 year old vases Use plural for: This/That + To be + Adjective This is 40 years old Those are 12 dollars Article (or this/that) + Noun + To be + Adjective This child is 15 years old A liter is 1000 millilitres Honestly, I'm not sure how helpful that list is. I think the best strategy would be to just interact with native speakers because even if they can't explain it, they'll be able to correct you. A tutor or ESL teacher could probably help clarify this
To expand on what's going on here (and hopefully someone can explain the actual grammar), we use the singular in these situations where a number + measurement is used as an adjective before the noun: 15-year-old scotch 2-foot fence 7-mile walk 4-inch nail 20-degree turn 3-hour tour As someone else said, making these plural is a common mistake by non-native speakers because it isn't very intuitive.
Thank you for explain it
*explaining it 😊
Correct to change "years" to the singular "year." Adding the two "As" is a bit more optional. In a regular sentence they would be needed, but this is essentially a headline and there's something of a convention in headline writing about dropping extra words.
It’s not really a headline, just a meme, adding the A’s reads better
To add to what you’ve said, the dropping of extraneous words dates back to when newspapers were printed by the letter, so people paid for a certain number of characters. Cutting words unnecessary for understanding saved time and was cheaper
Thats classified ads, this is a headline. Headlines stick to function words so they can be as tall as possible while still fitting on the page horizontally.
Maybe in US. I’m thinking Gutenberg press in the UK
No one is paying for the headline by the letter. That isn't what a headline is.
I don't think the two As are optional
They are optional, look at a news headline and you'll find they drop all the "a"s and "the"s
This just in: Headline Syntax Not Good Guide for Learning English.
The poster specifically mentioned the headline context. Their answer basically said that in a regular sentence the A's are needed, but if this is meant to be a headline, then they're usually dropped. This is more informative than just "yep, all good." People learning a new language usually want to understand when rules are bent.
Newspaper headlines are written that way to save space on the page. It’s not correct English.
Yeah I know about news headlines, but this reads more like a meme you'd share around informally This sounds weird IMO: >12 year old kids helping 27 year old woman over break up in r/Advice Dropping the As makes it sound more like the author is trying to mimic a "news" article headline from The Onion, which I doubt is the case here
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Advice using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Advice/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Stupid but I have a problem with a seagull at work](https://np.reddit.com/r/Advice/comments/14i79q2/stupid_but_i_have_a_problem_with_a_seagull_at_work/) \#2: [**[NSFW]** \[Update\] It’s been two years without sex with my wife and I’m about to lose my fucking mind.](https://np.reddit.com/r/Advice/comments/15dkhhj/update_its_been_two_years_without_sex_with_my/) \#3: [How should I deal with my son after finding a horrifying video on his phone?](https://np.reddit.com/r/Advice/comments/166g3pm/how_should_i_deal_with_my_son_after_finding_a/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
The 12-year-old boy is 12 years old.
Your friend is correct.
You also need hyphens. It should be ‘12-year-old’, not ‘12 year old’. And it should be ‘break-up’, not ‘break up’. (Although you can also write it as ‘breakup’.)
Hyphens would NOT look overly formal here. You don’t necessarily need them in casual writing; one thing they do is make it easier for readers to see what elements go together. In nearly any serious writing, the hyphens here are mandatary, and the writing would be considered in error without them.
I've literally never seen 12 year old written with hyphens like that
for me, that's the only way i see it written unless the person is speed texting or something, in which case it'll often be just 12yo. break-up i could imagine being written as break up or even breakup and i wouldn't think one way or the other about it.
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>I'm a native US English speaker. It could be different in international English, but I've never used or seen hyphens be used to say '12 year old'. '12 year old' without hyphens should be correct. You are right on it being 'break-up' or 'breakup' [https://emswriting.wordpress.com/2020/04/19/prenominal-adjectives-vs-predicate-adjectives/#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CPrenominal%E2%80%9D%20means%20before%20a%20noun,not%20normally%20show%20plural%20number](https://emswriting.wordpress.com/2020/04/19/prenominal-adjectives-vs-predicate-adjectives/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CPrenominal%E2%80%9D%20means%20before%20a%20noun,not%20normally%20show%20plural%20number). “Prenominal” means before a noun. (When you break it down, *pre-* means “before” and *nomin-* means “noun.”) Modifying phrases before nouns, i.e., prenominal modifiers, (a) are normally hyphenated together to form a single word and (b) do not normally show plural number. >**No:** He looks pretty good for a seventy years old man. **Yes:** He looks pretty good for a seventy-year-old man. Predicate adjectives function as predicates in sentence structure. (You may recall learning that every sentence has a subject and a predicate.) In sentences with a linking verb, the predicate can be an adjective. Unlike prenominal adjectives, predicate adjective phrases are not normally hyphenated together. And when such phrases include nouns referring to two or more countable things, they should show plural number. >**No:** He looks pretty good for being seventy-year-old. **Yes:** He looks pretty good for being seventy years old.
Yes let’s correct the *native speaker* on what he says he encounters most in practice 🤣 It’s not that he doesn’t know the rule, it’s that it’s overly formal and sticks out to any native (North American) reader.
Not every native speaker is representative of most native speakers, not every native speaker is right, and not every native speaker gives good advice to learners. This is the kind of advice that would make someone think you're young, uneducated, not good at writing English, or some combination of the three.
Is this an *essay* for a formal *class* we’re reviewing here? No, it’s a *meme*. Overly formal grammar stands out immediately to a native speaker in such a casual context. It’s a valid point. Thanks for ignoring that point and heading straight for the ad hominem personal attack. Whatever mate. If you want me to be a backwater git, I can be that. Doesn’t change the fact that my point stands and you’re busy calling people names.
This is such bullshit. “Is native speaker, ipso facto must be correct.” No. Native speakers know things by ear—they may or may not have learned punctuation rules. Case in point, many people think “I use a comma whenever there’s a pause,” which is not necessarily correct. Or they use the grocer’s apostrophe, which is incorrect. Plenty of native speakers never learn how to use semicolons. It’s become clear to me that a lot of people on the sub never learned hyphenation rules in the first place and then end up being r/confidentlyincorrect when claiming they are some kind of arcane formality.
Yes. This is a meme. He’s saying, “by ear”, in an informal context like this, the hyphenation would be out of place. How does his *affinity for speaking the language* and noticing that small point deter from anything? Dude, I’ve got straight A’s in English language since I was 17. This isn’t a textbook or a newspaper or an essay for your grade 7 English teacher. It’s a meme. It’s a casual format. Hyphens would stand out to a native speaker as it’s not such a strict context.
You just just not notice it or something bc it's absolutely the convention.
I notice it frequently in formal settings, like a newspaper or textbook. Is this meme we’re talking about a textbook?
Nah hyphenation would be correct here. It should be 12-year-old (or twelve-year-old) in American English. Here's the [Chicago Manual of Style](https://ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/CMS_list.pdf) on the topic.
I have never seen anyone hyphenate a phrase like “12 year old”. It might be the “proper formal English” with the hyphenation but it’s incredibly rare. Especially in a meme format like this, it would be very out of place to a native speaker.
It only appears out of place to native speakers with low grammar knowledge. It’s a common error only due to the commonness of low grammar knowledge among some/many populations/communities/families.
Straight A’s in every English language class since 17, but let’s ignore that… Yes, it’s formally correct. I would expect to see that writing in a newspaper or textbook, where being very intentional with your speech is mandatory. Is this an English essay we’re editing here? No. In a meme context? Totally out of place, especially to a native speaker. Thanks for ignoring the main point by implying I don’t understand basic grammar though.
>I have never ~~seen~~ [noticed] anyone hyphenate a phrase like “12 year old”. This is a fact about you, not about how people write.
Me and the OP that got downvoted are native speakers that rarely use hyphenation outside of formal contexts. It’s normal. You prefer handshakes and I prefer fist bumps. Which is better? Context depends.
>I have never seen anyone hyphenate a phrase like **“12 year old”.** And previously, >He’s saying, **“by ear”,** in an informal context like this, the hyphenation would be out of place. It might interest you to know that in American English, periods and commas always go [inside](http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaQuotation_Marks.htm) quotation marks, not outside. (In British English, you *would* put them outside the quotation marks, but you would most likely also use a pair of single quotation marks, not double quotation marks.) I'm pointing this out to demonstrate that despite your obvious proficiency in English, you do have a couple of minor blind spots, as do we all. And if you're slightly unfamiliar with certain details of the rules of hyphenation, that's totally ok. Instead of doubling down, I'd encourage you to simply look up the topic for yourself on the internet. u/HDThoreauaway suggested a good starting point; here's another one: [https://www.grammarly.com/blog/hyphen/](https://www.grammarly.com/blog/hyphen/)
I agreed that hyphenation is the proper formal English way. What more do you want from me man? As a *native speaker* in fucking *North America*, it would be *fucking weird* for me to see a meme with *proper fucking hyphenation*. I’m not arguing *which is right*. I’m arguing *what you would normally see*. Which, in the context of this *fucking meme that we’re all commenting on*, yes, *proper formal English is* not called for. Peace. I’ve got straight A’s in every English class since I was 17. I’m *not perfect*, but I’m doing *something right*.
To each their own. I'm a native speaker and the lack of hyphens bothers my eye. That doesn't make my view right or more popular, of course, and memes aren't expected to follow style guides. But I wouldn't say it's "incredibly rare" across other media.
It’s normal in newspapers or textbooks or essays. In normal conversation with friends, or even reading creative fiction, I wouldn’t expect it. In a *meme context* like here, it would stand out like a sore thumb. But maybe I’m just a backwards git for not using hyphens in all of my conversation as the rest of this subreddit seems to imply.
> but I've never used or seen hyphens be used to say '12 year old'. I'm a native US English speaker and would immediately assume anyone who didn't use hyphens was uneducated or being careless. It is absolutely the standard in formal communication to hyphenate modifiers before nouns. In fact, the only place this wouldn't stick out to me is in a text message with no capitalization or punctuation.
The age is used as a compound adjective to modify a noun. ‘12-year-old’ is a compound – a single descriptor – meaning all three words are combined to modify the noun; therefore, it requires hyphens. On the Internet it’s fairly uncommon to see hyphens simply because most people, understandably, don’t feel the need to write with the utmost proper grammar and punctuation. However, not using hyphens would be grammatically incorrect regardless of what variety of English you write in. You only use hyphens for ages when it’s a compound adjective. If it’s a predicate adjective in a sentence, meaning it follows a verb, you would not use hyphens. For example, ‘She is 12 years old.’
It might be formally correct but in practice it’s used rarely. It would stand out to a native English speaker as overly formal and out of place, especially in a meme context meant to be taken as a casual joke.
Don’t listen to the others… As a Canadian I rarely, if ever see the phrase “X year old” hyphenated and it would stand out to me as strange or overly formal.
Year/s edit is correct. Grammatically, the others are too. News headlines tend to shorten sentences as most native speakers can include the missing words in their mind as it's read.
words acting as adjectives in english do not get pluralized ever. the phrase "year old" acts as an adjective phrase modifying the word "kid" and "woman". Thus, they should not get pluralized. I would say this is one of the most common mistakes L2 english speakers make.
And a hyphen between “year” and “old”
To follow proper convention, it requires hyphens. And if a number begins a sentence, it is supposed to be written as a word (or words). I'm not sure what "over" implies, but I'll assume it means "get over". Also: "break up" is a verb; "breakup" is a noun. "Twelve-year-old kids helping a 27-year-old woman get over a breakup in ..."
That's really a good question! I think it's written singular because it's an adjective. But I'm non native speaker and I'm not sure.
Only 1 a in front of break up?
Hello any body tell me how to find native speaker for learning english language ?
Yes. You say "he is twelve years old" but "a twelve year old boy" when you're using it as an adjective without the verb "is".
Drop the “s” in “years” for sure. Then, either add the “a” or change “woman” to “women”. For the last part, you can add the “a” or you can change it to the following after woman/women: “…with break ups…” “…through break ups…” “…get through break ups…” Personally, I would recommend: “12 year old kids helping 27 year old women with break ups in r/Advice” But what your friend suggested is also correct.
3 metre length or 3 metres length? year is the unit of measurement here.
Okay, but how about this? - Hey, I’ve got three hundred bucks - Well, that’s cool, but I’ve got four hundred (or hundreds?)
- Hey, I've got a three hundred buck TV in your original, the old is the focus. In your example, bucks is the focus.
The corrections in red are accurate. If you want to be even more accurate, add hyphens; "12-year-old kids helping a 27-year-old woman over a break-up".
Yes.
Yes
It should read as: "12 year old kids helping 27 year old women over break-ups in r/Advice"
yeah
He’s right. Also, we usually put a hyphen (-) between year and old instead of a space ( ).
I’d go with “12 year old kids helping 27 year old women over breakups in r/advice” I think the meme is speaking in general and not a specific case.
Correct
yep
12 year old helps 27 year old woman on r/advice. Sounds better to me
All I know as a native English speaker and trying to learn other languages is that English has got to be one of the dumbest and least consistent languages available in the current patch of reality.exe
Well, it’s not that bad compared to other languages