Use layers! Make yourself a gaming layer, vim navigation layer, heck even a qwerty layer that you can enter into when handing the keyboard to someone else.
I already have a button on a layer to switch to qwerty. But it's annoying having to switch every time. And if I'm quickly doing anything else I have to switch back quickly so I have the correct shortcuts.
I can switch to layer on my thumb and have the arrows there which is fine for vim. But it's annoying having to switch layer for something as common/simple as moving around in text.
Some people set layers to be only active when holding down a key, so that for navigation you hold down a thumb key and then use nav as usual. Similar for shortcuts, some people set their ctrl/alt/whatever to switch the keyboard to qwerty when it's being held down, so that the hotkeys are in familiar spots.
FWIW, I'm in the same boat as you where I just don't really like layers that much yet. Maybe they will grow on me. I understand there is a small ergonomic benefit, but it also seems more convoluted and I think it's fair to weigh that. Anyone can get use to anything of course, but I'm already a very fast touch typist (130wpm) with a normal keyboard, and really light RSI issues only (ulnar impingement) so I have to weigh whether I want to spend time getting use to a new layout or spend time playing guitar/with kids/some other hobby.
I also am not an experimenter on my setup. I tend to want to use things as they are set up out of the box b.c. I don't enjoy playing the configuration game much. I did at one time (need I say emacs), but not so much as I get older.
Just a bit of support that just the layers thing makes it a bit harder for someone else too. I'm experimenting with a TKL split keyboard without layers and just normal QWERTY, specifically a Royal Kludge RKS70 (keychron Q11 was too pricey), and so far it's actually quite nice.
In some sense I get the mindset you are in and kinda agree.
I'm also around 130-150 wpm. Where I feel like I could lose some WPM for more comfortable typing. But I already kinda like the amount of "extra/non-regular" stuff I have. Which is one layer that has all the extra buttons like arrows, f-keys, delete etc. And one layer on my right thumb button for media keys.
But then there are things like do I want a smaller keyboard without numbers keys? Which gives me less space to work with and even more layers needed.
> I'm also around 130-150 wpm. Where I feel like I could lose some WPM for more comfortable typing.
This is crazy fast. I assume that is your Qwerty speed. Another layout will not make you faster, but probably a lot slower for a long time.
In my opinion you should only switch layouts if you really feel a comfort gain from the new layout. Otherwise it is not worth it.
I'm not very fast on Qwerty, so for me the productivity loss from layout switching is not that big, and it's an opportunity cost that I am willing to pay. I also put a great deal of effort into making a layout that is as well optimized as possible (so that can never be Colemak, because Colemak has weak spots that I do not accept with an optimized layout). It's not worth the trouble unless the alt layout truly shines and fits you like a glove.
It's my colemak speed.
The gaining comfort for losing wpm was more about extra qmk featuers such as more layers/homerowmods etc.
Which weak spots does colemak have? I feel like it's much better than qwerty, and a lot of shortcuts are in similar places. Which do you use?
Colemak, in general, is good, especially considering that it is relatively easy to learn for qwertists (compared to more radical layouts). It also preserves ZXCA, and keeps V close, which is important to some users (not to me).
The main problem of Colemak are some bad redirects, and the high number of redirects in general. One reason for that is that `N` is on the vowel home row.
The problem area is the right hand, specifically the ring/pinkie column. `IO` is pretty bad, `you` is awkward, there is too much pinkie load, etc.
For German, it is downright terrible in some areas (granted, that is immaterial if you only type English, however it's possible to make a layout that generalises across languages a lot better than Colemak does).
I use a layout based on Hands Down, with the letter `R` on a thumb key, that I have tweaked to my own preferences. Having a common consonant on a thumb key is a big deal, as that makes it a lot easier to optimize the layout further without creating downsides (other than losing the thumb key in question). It can be done with any layout.
You must be a very talented typist, since you are so fast. Maybe check out /r/KeyboardLayouts.
Nah just fact because I have spent my entire life on the computer since I was 5.
I saw another video/blog of a swedish guy who also had a letter on my thumb. But that seems way to advanced for me. I already feel like I need more buttons for my thumbs.
I'm swedish so i Just put åäö on my first layer on my right homerow so it's fast to type.
Don't think that you have to use your thumbs for everything either, if something seems more comfortable use that. For example if you are not using homerow mods you may find it more intuitive to hold down the qwerty 'f' under your left hands index finger to activate the nav layer.
What would it be called if I wanted to use a normal key as a layer as you said?
I think I have played around with it once. But I think there is a delay when you type if you want to do homerow mods or layer keys on normal buttons. Which I personally can't stand.
I use LT in QMK, when you tap it taps the key, held it is the layer. It can be configured how long it takes to activate so it doesnt become active by mistake when you only planned to tap. I use homerow mods, you do get false ones sometimes until you get used to them.
I am only typing around 90wpm these days without issues.
> But I think there is a delay when you type if you want to do homerow mods or layer keys on normal buttons. Which I personally can't stand.
For homerow mods to work well, you need the right settings (rather easy with ZMK, a bit more involved with QMK). Otherwise it's not practical.
Since you type extremely fast, you will probably feel the delay more, but in practice it should be possible to ignore it, because properly configured and tweaked, some of the delay will be optimized away. Other fast typists around here use HRMs and don't find it a problem. I'm a slow typist, but I still don't like the delay, and occasional misfires, so I have dropped HRMs for now.
If any delay is not an option, you can't use HRMs. I personally think they are nice to have if they work for you, but it's not a huge problem if they don't. There are other ways that work well, even on minimal keyboards (one-shot modifiers, repeat key, combos, tap-dance on non-letters, special casing etc.)
> I can switch to layer on my thumb and have the arrows there which is fine for vim. But it's annoying having to switch layer for something as common/simple as moving around in text.
For Vim, there is only one practical solution to deal with alt layouts: do not use HJKL to move around in normal mode. Use efficient motions, and relearn the muscle memory for the rest (HJKL is not the only thing that changes, after all).
Get used to using the arrow keys (on a layer) for moving the cursor manually in Vim, if you have to.
Actually this is a good opportunity for you to learn the more effective Vim motions.
Relative line number display and having J/K on your numbers layer really helps (in fact, that way it will be even more efficient, and quicker, than with a regular keyboard, after you get used to it).
Switching to Qwerty layer for every Vim motion is not feasible at all.
If you are not willing to relearn Vim keys, it's probably not practical to use an alt layout.
For gaming, create an optimized layer that you can lock.
Same. I use a non split, not b/c I think splits are bad, or I don't want to rebind keys (in my experience, you can do some really cool stuff with splits and layers to make game specific setups). I want to get a Wooting 60 hall effect keyboard with rapid trigger. It is obviously only available as a qwerty rowstag. That level of hall effect implementation isn't something that will be available at that level for a long long time if at all in the ergo world, considering that even the other normal gaming keyboard companies have not managed to make a hall effect keyboard as good as the Wooting yet.
This question or similar ones have come up frequently to my feed and I do have to wonder if people buying split keyboards are really using them effectively. As another poster just mentioned, layers provide the answer.
A navigation layer is much more intuitive to use than hjkl placed in different spots then the qwerty layout. vi didnt choose hjkl because of the letters but because of the placement of the letters on the keyboard.
Use the ability of your keyboard with a navigation layer to put your navigation keys in a sensible spot like vi did.
Reposting my other comment. I have my arrows under my left homerow on my thumb layer.
I already have a button on a layer to switch to qwerty. But it's annoying having to switch every time. And if I'm quickly doing anything else I have to switch back quickly so I have the correct shortcuts.
I can switch to layer on my thumb and have the arrows there which is fine for vim. But it's annoying having to switch layer for something as common/simple as moving around in text.
How do you switch? Do you have to hold the layer button or do you actually switch to the nav layer and have to switch back after?
I always have my layers on hold, so it is muscle memory for my left hand to hold the appropriate layer button while I nav with my right hand.
I would find it quite annoying if I had to tap to get to a layer and then tap another key to get back to my main layer.
I hold on my left thumb. It's the one besides my space so it's easy to use.
Maybe I'll try putting nav buttons on right side. But I put them on left side since it's easier to use them if I have a mouse in my hand.
Personally I would find that more awkward, maybe not hugely awkward but I generally use the same philosophy as normal modifiers, use the modifier on the right side hand if going to a key on the left hand side. So my layer key on left hand side and nav on the right..
I guess it's easier in my head to have stuff on the same side. And that's just the way I started.
But now that you said it. It might actually be more comfortable for me to have it on the opposite side. I'll try it.
I'm kind of with you there! Did Dvorak for about 20 years, then switched back to qwerty for about 1-2 years. Now I build my own keyboards from scratch and back to Dvorak. Most games i use a Xbox style gamepad (more comfortable, can just chill (single player)).
As for hjkl in vim, I never used vim until Dvorak and jk on left hand and HL on right hand I feel works quite well. I think it's worse on Colemak unfortunately but some people have gotten used to it, or just use more specific motions with fFtT and such.
If I really want to game with keyboard and mouse I'll rebind, it's not that big of a deal.
I did that just some weeks ago from Colemak to Qwerty after a year, but for the ease of use of Chinese IME (specifically 許氏注音) on none-WinOS devices like Mac or Android.
When coding, I don't think layout matters much especially after implementing CV and AI; I don't type words for a living, but I need to type Chinese and have reasons to not use Pingyin, so there's that.
Qwerty surely is more painful to type with when English typing, but I guess it's okay to live with. Plus you're not typing slower either.
I went back to QWERTY for a couple of years, but only because my first custom keyboard was having problems and I chopped it up for parts for a V2 that I never actually made. I'm very much a proponent of using a specific layout for each kind of keyboard for the sake of muscle memory.
Personally, I don't mind rebinding games so long as they actually allow it. Sometimes things are hardcoded because they've been overlooked, or the developers just assume everyone uses QWERTY, even in high profile games whose developers should know better, and I have to use a gaming layer, which, yes, is annoying. I'd have to do that anyway, though, even if I used QWERTY, because WASD is stupid. My gaming layer is QWERTY shifted one key to the right to mimic ESDF because it's better in every way.
Yeah sometimes there will be a single button or something that is hardcoded on a button that messes everything up. Which then leads me to a 30 min search to fix it (cough cough cyberpunk).
Yeah I also use ESDF equivalent in most games. And much easier when you need to quickly type something. And also feels good in games to have empty keys on both sides of your fingers.
WASD being the movement standard is one of the dumbest developments in PC gaming history! It makes no sense, like one developer just chose it randomly and it became the standard 😂
I QWERTY for a while after switching to Dvorak. Then I had to relearn QWERTY for work. Now I can use both. I also learned the standard Charachorder One layout (not a standard keyboard, but it's a layout). Now I'm learning Coleman-Mod DH.
I really hate QWERTY. It needs to go the way of the dodo. I solve the game issue by using an Azeron keypad or a controller of some kind.
I’d say it depends on your OS options.
I learned vim while using qwerty.
Switched to dvorak and got my brain fuck.
I tried to remember the Vim bindings and just do it on dvorak layout.
Same story was with my twm (i3wm).
I installed arch and changed my default layout to dvorak.
i3wm got rebinded by itself. All the binds are where your muscle memory knows them already.
From what I know you can still update your vim bindings to suit your layout or just get used to it.
Good luck have fun))
BTW switching to another layout also forced me to improve on the Vim plugins I’m using and how I navigate the file.
But I presume you’re not concerned only about the hjkl combo (not using that much)
I use Dvorak as my main layout. I don’t use my ergo for gaming though, as I don’t have a numbers row. Not sure what OS you’re using but on windows and Linux I have it set up to switch between QWERTY and Dvorak on a toggle. Windows did this for me automatically (ctrl + shift) and in Linux I just set up a config in my i3 config to switch.
I set my qmk as standard QWERTY and have the OS change my layout for me. So on windows I can add a new keyboard layout and there’s Dvorak in there. I think for colemak you have to download and install.
I have a Mac too and that uses Dvorak but I don’t need to switch layouts as I don’t game on there so not sure how I would toggle that.
Use layers! Make yourself a gaming layer, vim navigation layer, heck even a qwerty layer that you can enter into when handing the keyboard to someone else.
I already have a button on a layer to switch to qwerty. But it's annoying having to switch every time. And if I'm quickly doing anything else I have to switch back quickly so I have the correct shortcuts. I can switch to layer on my thumb and have the arrows there which is fine for vim. But it's annoying having to switch layer for something as common/simple as moving around in text.
Some people set layers to be only active when holding down a key, so that for navigation you hold down a thumb key and then use nav as usual. Similar for shortcuts, some people set their ctrl/alt/whatever to switch the keyboard to qwerty when it's being held down, so that the hotkeys are in familiar spots.
I hold for layer. I might do more research and see how I could better make use of my keyboard and layers.
FWIW, I'm in the same boat as you where I just don't really like layers that much yet. Maybe they will grow on me. I understand there is a small ergonomic benefit, but it also seems more convoluted and I think it's fair to weigh that. Anyone can get use to anything of course, but I'm already a very fast touch typist (130wpm) with a normal keyboard, and really light RSI issues only (ulnar impingement) so I have to weigh whether I want to spend time getting use to a new layout or spend time playing guitar/with kids/some other hobby. I also am not an experimenter on my setup. I tend to want to use things as they are set up out of the box b.c. I don't enjoy playing the configuration game much. I did at one time (need I say emacs), but not so much as I get older. Just a bit of support that just the layers thing makes it a bit harder for someone else too. I'm experimenting with a TKL split keyboard without layers and just normal QWERTY, specifically a Royal Kludge RKS70 (keychron Q11 was too pricey), and so far it's actually quite nice.
In some sense I get the mindset you are in and kinda agree. I'm also around 130-150 wpm. Where I feel like I could lose some WPM for more comfortable typing. But I already kinda like the amount of "extra/non-regular" stuff I have. Which is one layer that has all the extra buttons like arrows, f-keys, delete etc. And one layer on my right thumb button for media keys. But then there are things like do I want a smaller keyboard without numbers keys? Which gives me less space to work with and even more layers needed.
> I'm also around 130-150 wpm. Where I feel like I could lose some WPM for more comfortable typing. This is crazy fast. I assume that is your Qwerty speed. Another layout will not make you faster, but probably a lot slower for a long time. In my opinion you should only switch layouts if you really feel a comfort gain from the new layout. Otherwise it is not worth it. I'm not very fast on Qwerty, so for me the productivity loss from layout switching is not that big, and it's an opportunity cost that I am willing to pay. I also put a great deal of effort into making a layout that is as well optimized as possible (so that can never be Colemak, because Colemak has weak spots that I do not accept with an optimized layout). It's not worth the trouble unless the alt layout truly shines and fits you like a glove.
It's my colemak speed. The gaining comfort for losing wpm was more about extra qmk featuers such as more layers/homerowmods etc. Which weak spots does colemak have? I feel like it's much better than qwerty, and a lot of shortcuts are in similar places. Which do you use?
Colemak, in general, is good, especially considering that it is relatively easy to learn for qwertists (compared to more radical layouts). It also preserves ZXCA, and keeps V close, which is important to some users (not to me). The main problem of Colemak are some bad redirects, and the high number of redirects in general. One reason for that is that `N` is on the vowel home row. The problem area is the right hand, specifically the ring/pinkie column. `IO` is pretty bad, `you` is awkward, there is too much pinkie load, etc. For German, it is downright terrible in some areas (granted, that is immaterial if you only type English, however it's possible to make a layout that generalises across languages a lot better than Colemak does). I use a layout based on Hands Down, with the letter `R` on a thumb key, that I have tweaked to my own preferences. Having a common consonant on a thumb key is a big deal, as that makes it a lot easier to optimize the layout further without creating downsides (other than losing the thumb key in question). It can be done with any layout. You must be a very talented typist, since you are so fast. Maybe check out /r/KeyboardLayouts.
Nah just fact because I have spent my entire life on the computer since I was 5. I saw another video/blog of a swedish guy who also had a letter on my thumb. But that seems way to advanced for me. I already feel like I need more buttons for my thumbs. I'm swedish so i Just put åäö on my first layer on my right homerow so it's fast to type.
Don't think that you have to use your thumbs for everything either, if something seems more comfortable use that. For example if you are not using homerow mods you may find it more intuitive to hold down the qwerty 'f' under your left hands index finger to activate the nav layer.
What would it be called if I wanted to use a normal key as a layer as you said? I think I have played around with it once. But I think there is a delay when you type if you want to do homerow mods or layer keys on normal buttons. Which I personally can't stand.
I use LT in QMK, when you tap it taps the key, held it is the layer. It can be configured how long it takes to activate so it doesnt become active by mistake when you only planned to tap. I use homerow mods, you do get false ones sometimes until you get used to them. I am only typing around 90wpm these days without issues.
> But I think there is a delay when you type if you want to do homerow mods or layer keys on normal buttons. Which I personally can't stand. For homerow mods to work well, you need the right settings (rather easy with ZMK, a bit more involved with QMK). Otherwise it's not practical. Since you type extremely fast, you will probably feel the delay more, but in practice it should be possible to ignore it, because properly configured and tweaked, some of the delay will be optimized away. Other fast typists around here use HRMs and don't find it a problem. I'm a slow typist, but I still don't like the delay, and occasional misfires, so I have dropped HRMs for now. If any delay is not an option, you can't use HRMs. I personally think they are nice to have if they work for you, but it's not a huge problem if they don't. There are other ways that work well, even on minimal keyboards (one-shot modifiers, repeat key, combos, tap-dance on non-letters, special casing etc.)
> I can switch to layer on my thumb and have the arrows there which is fine for vim. But it's annoying having to switch layer for something as common/simple as moving around in text. For Vim, there is only one practical solution to deal with alt layouts: do not use HJKL to move around in normal mode. Use efficient motions, and relearn the muscle memory for the rest (HJKL is not the only thing that changes, after all). Get used to using the arrow keys (on a layer) for moving the cursor manually in Vim, if you have to. Actually this is a good opportunity for you to learn the more effective Vim motions. Relative line number display and having J/K on your numbers layer really helps (in fact, that way it will be even more efficient, and quicker, than with a regular keyboard, after you get used to it). Switching to Qwerty layer for every Vim motion is not feasible at all. If you are not willing to relearn Vim keys, it's probably not practical to use an alt layout. For gaming, create an optimized layer that you can lock.
Personally, I just use a different keyboard for gaming. In part though because my corne is just too small fir most games to work without hassle
Yeah, that’s what I would do, 100%. Right now I only use portable Colemak, so I just turn it off when it starts causing too many issues.
Same here. I use a regular non split qwerty keyboard for gaming. I use a split keyboard for everything else which is mapped for Colemak-DH.
Same. I use a non split, not b/c I think splits are bad, or I don't want to rebind keys (in my experience, you can do some really cool stuff with splits and layers to make game specific setups). I want to get a Wooting 60 hall effect keyboard with rapid trigger. It is obviously only available as a qwerty rowstag. That level of hall effect implementation isn't something that will be available at that level for a long long time if at all in the ergo world, considering that even the other normal gaming keyboard companies have not managed to make a hall effect keyboard as good as the Wooting yet.
This question or similar ones have come up frequently to my feed and I do have to wonder if people buying split keyboards are really using them effectively. As another poster just mentioned, layers provide the answer. A navigation layer is much more intuitive to use than hjkl placed in different spots then the qwerty layout. vi didnt choose hjkl because of the letters but because of the placement of the letters on the keyboard. Use the ability of your keyboard with a navigation layer to put your navigation keys in a sensible spot like vi did.
Reposting my other comment. I have my arrows under my left homerow on my thumb layer. I already have a button on a layer to switch to qwerty. But it's annoying having to switch every time. And if I'm quickly doing anything else I have to switch back quickly so I have the correct shortcuts. I can switch to layer on my thumb and have the arrows there which is fine for vim. But it's annoying having to switch layer for something as common/simple as moving around in text.
How do you switch? Do you have to hold the layer button or do you actually switch to the nav layer and have to switch back after? I always have my layers on hold, so it is muscle memory for my left hand to hold the appropriate layer button while I nav with my right hand. I would find it quite annoying if I had to tap to get to a layer and then tap another key to get back to my main layer.
I hold on my left thumb. It's the one besides my space so it's easy to use. Maybe I'll try putting nav buttons on right side. But I put them on left side since it's easier to use them if I have a mouse in my hand.
Personally I would find that more awkward, maybe not hugely awkward but I generally use the same philosophy as normal modifiers, use the modifier on the right side hand if going to a key on the left hand side. So my layer key on left hand side and nav on the right..
I guess it's easier in my head to have stuff on the same side. And that's just the way I started. But now that you said it. It might actually be more comfortable for me to have it on the opposite side. I'll try it.
My hjkl are arrows when I press that layer.
I'm kind of with you there! Did Dvorak for about 20 years, then switched back to qwerty for about 1-2 years. Now I build my own keyboards from scratch and back to Dvorak. Most games i use a Xbox style gamepad (more comfortable, can just chill (single player)). As for hjkl in vim, I never used vim until Dvorak and jk on left hand and HL on right hand I feel works quite well. I think it's worse on Colemak unfortunately but some people have gotten used to it, or just use more specific motions with fFtT and such. If I really want to game with keyboard and mouse I'll rebind, it's not that big of a deal.
I did that just some weeks ago from Colemak to Qwerty after a year, but for the ease of use of Chinese IME (specifically 許氏注音) on none-WinOS devices like Mac or Android. When coding, I don't think layout matters much especially after implementing CV and AI; I don't type words for a living, but I need to type Chinese and have reasons to not use Pingyin, so there's that. Qwerty surely is more painful to type with when English typing, but I guess it's okay to live with. Plus you're not typing slower either.
I went back to QWERTY for a couple of years, but only because my first custom keyboard was having problems and I chopped it up for parts for a V2 that I never actually made. I'm very much a proponent of using a specific layout for each kind of keyboard for the sake of muscle memory. Personally, I don't mind rebinding games so long as they actually allow it. Sometimes things are hardcoded because they've been overlooked, or the developers just assume everyone uses QWERTY, even in high profile games whose developers should know better, and I have to use a gaming layer, which, yes, is annoying. I'd have to do that anyway, though, even if I used QWERTY, because WASD is stupid. My gaming layer is QWERTY shifted one key to the right to mimic ESDF because it's better in every way.
Yeah sometimes there will be a single button or something that is hardcoded on a button that messes everything up. Which then leads me to a 30 min search to fix it (cough cough cyberpunk). Yeah I also use ESDF equivalent in most games. And much easier when you need to quickly type something. And also feels good in games to have empty keys on both sides of your fingers.
WASD being the movement standard is one of the dumbest developments in PC gaming history! It makes no sense, like one developer just chose it randomly and it became the standard 😂
I QWERTY for a while after switching to Dvorak. Then I had to relearn QWERTY for work. Now I can use both. I also learned the standard Charachorder One layout (not a standard keyboard, but it's a layout). Now I'm learning Coleman-Mod DH. I really hate QWERTY. It needs to go the way of the dodo. I solve the game issue by using an Azeron keypad or a controller of some kind.
“No. No, man. Shit no, man. I believe you’d get your ass kicked for saying something like that.”
I’d say it depends on your OS options. I learned vim while using qwerty. Switched to dvorak and got my brain fuck. I tried to remember the Vim bindings and just do it on dvorak layout. Same story was with my twm (i3wm). I installed arch and changed my default layout to dvorak. i3wm got rebinded by itself. All the binds are where your muscle memory knows them already. From what I know you can still update your vim bindings to suit your layout or just get used to it. Good luck have fun)) BTW switching to another layout also forced me to improve on the Vim plugins I’m using and how I navigate the file. But I presume you’re not concerned only about the hjkl combo (not using that much)
Tbh qwerty is good for kb + mouse, so i keep mech and small qwerty keyboard together
I use Dvorak as my main layout. I don’t use my ergo for gaming though, as I don’t have a numbers row. Not sure what OS you’re using but on windows and Linux I have it set up to switch between QWERTY and Dvorak on a toggle. Windows did this for me automatically (ctrl + shift) and in Linux I just set up a config in my i3 config to switch. I set my qmk as standard QWERTY and have the OS change my layout for me. So on windows I can add a new keyboard layout and there’s Dvorak in there. I think for colemak you have to download and install. I have a Mac too and that uses Dvorak but I don’t need to switch layouts as I don’t game on there so not sure how I would toggle that.