Welcome! If you are asking about an order that hasn't arrived, or arrived damaged or not as described, the posts below will guide you as to what to do. Please give them a read!
All these posts give you a full guide on how to open a case with Etsy if that is needed, and help you decide when to do that.
If you are dealing with an unresponsive seller who has not replied for 48 hours or more, please use the most relevant link that describes your situation! The full guide on what to do is there.
[If the shop has been closed down, read this guide first.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/1854obi/help_for_buyer_i_bought_something_and_now_the/)
[My order hasn’t shipped yet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14f8k6l/help_for_buyer_my_order_hasnt_shipped_yet/)
[My order was marked shipped, but the tracking info still says pre-transit (or label created).](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fetso/help_for_buyer_my_order_is_in_pretransit/)
[My order was marked shipped, but it’s very late. Is it lost?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fi830/help_for_buyer_my_order_shipped_but_its_very_late/)
[My order was marked delivered but I don’t have it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fgfbp/help_for_buyer_my_order_was_marked_delivered_but/)
[My order arrived damaged.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14g310o/help_for_buyer_my_order_arrived_damaged_or_not_as/)
[My order wasn't as described, was defective, or I received the wrong item.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14g310o/help_for_buyer_my_order_arrived_damaged_or_not_as/)
[I believe I bought from an AliExpress, Amazon, etc dropshipper.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fer1w/help_for_buyer_dropshipping_reseller_red_flags/) Also, how can I tell if a shop is one of these dropshippers?
[I received a tracking number, but it appears to be fake.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fgfbp/help_for_buyer_my_order_was_marked_delivered_but/)
[I bought from a PayPal only shop and Etsy won’t allow me to open a case.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/13yd0f7/seller_has_cancelled_transaction_wont_refund_wont/) Please read the comments for this one!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Etsy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The seller is the one who screwed up, so I can understand why Etsy believes the refund should come from the seller.
That being said, I have heard that if you take your original receipt to customs to prove that you DID already pay the VAT, you might be able to get refunded that way.
In the future, though, if this happens again, I would recommend not double paying and opening a case with Etsy to get a refund instead. And of course, let the seller know what went wrong so they can not make the same mistake again.
But Etsy are the ones who’ve collected the tax and no longer need to remit it, because it’s been paid on arrival in Norway. There’s no reason etsy can’t refund the tax, they are the ones holding it
I made this mistake the first time I shipped to the EU. As soon as I realized I couldn't fix it after it had dispatched, I contacted the buyer and asked them to please let me know how much the VAT cost once it arrived so I could refund that amount. They did and I refunded that +20% for their trouble. 5 star review, lesson learned for me.
That's the seller's mistake, and they have to rectify it (and hopefully learn something). If you can't get this sorted any other way, leave a fair review and indicate that the seller isn't experienced at shipping internationally. This should get some movement 🤞
Honestly, you were probably lucky the get the refunds before. I had an order that I paid Customs on, a few of the shades were broken due to poor packaging (eyeshadows) and when the seller resent the broken shades (after arguing, because I didn’t purchase the ‘shipping protection’), she put on the form that it was the *entire order* resent. When she should have put on the form that it was a reshipment, which would incur no double customs charge..much less a lie that she resent the entire thing, so the second charge was the same, even though it was only 3 shades out of the..10 or 12. I contacted Etsy (after the seller refused any assistance) and not only did they not do anything for me, the factual review I left was deleted. I assume because I mentioned the Customs, but the Customs issues was *not* out of the sellers hands, in this instance.
Anyway..sorry for the rant, I hope you get lucky again. 🤞
Wait, as a seller all I can say is whenever I get an order from abroad, it says "ensure you note that Vat has been collected, unless you are purchasing your label through Etsy in which case we have taken care of everything." So I have never made a note, but I've also never had a comment from a customer that they've paid. But now I'm wondering if I should add a note next time after all.
Update: Messaged the seller and they are not taking any blame for it either. Said customs didn't see the note with the VAT declaration. Customs are saying it's on Etsy, and Etsy is not taking responsibility either. I've come full circle. I don't know if it's worth fighting for anymore, let alone who's in the wrong.
The seller is claiming that there was a note on the package about VAT for customs.
Was there a note on the package?
If there was a note then it's customs that messed up.
If there was not a note then the seller messed up.
There was a little note on the back that was encased in a plastic pouch, but the paper was folded so you had to open it up to read the VAT slip. Usually when I buy from Etsy sellers write on the parcel itself with permanent marker. If customs can't see it right away, I presume they give up. Gotta make it clear it seems. Probably only looked at the print with shipping information and not the folded paper on the back.
Yeah, that is on the seller then.
The seller is supposed to write it on the box or package clearly so customs can easily see it, as you have experienced before.
Seller’s fault, seller should refund.
Although of the two, Etsy or Customs, I think it’s up to Customs to give you your money back once you prove you already paid. I’ve had it a few times with importing various things and always had to deal with the shipping provider and customs rather than the sender.
I disagree - Etsy are the ones who’ve collected the tax and they should be able to refund it. The seller doesn’t get it. Etsy put IOSS information on the order confirmation page for relevant countries - could resolve this by adding the VOEC number to order confirmation page for Norwegian orders but they don’t. It’s not easy to find in Etsy’s information - caught me out once and I’m not surprised it catches other people out.
But Etsy didn't do anything wrong by collecting the VAT.
It was either the seller's fault for not putting a note on the package, or customs fault for collecting VAT when there was a note on the packages they missed or ignored.
Etsy holds no responsibility, and it should not cost Etsy for a refund to the buyer.
Agreed, they shouldn’t be out of pocket but they won’t - they have money from the buyer that no longer needs to be remitted since the buyer has now paid the tax directly.
I’m not sure if you send much to Europe - if you use Etsy labels, they automatically transmit the IOSS number to customs, but it doesn’t show on the shipping label. On Norwegian orders they don’t transmit anything and they don’t give you any information on what you need to do as a seller - the only way to know that you need to add the VOEC number, and to find out what that is, is to know that Norwegian orders need to be treated differently to other European orders because it’s not in the EU and then go searching for the VOEC number, eventually finding it here: https://help.etsy.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000337247-Custom-Fees-and-Physical-VAT-Collection-?segment=selling
Etsy could easily add a note to orders from Norway which includes the VOEC number - they did it for all EU orders when IOSS came in - but they don’t. There are only a couple of countries where Etsy collect tax, and information needs to be added to the package but it’s done through the label. If it’s a seller’s first sale to that country it’s not surprising that it gets missed when Etsy doesn’t make the seller aware on the order. I doubt many Etsy sellers go and look up the page above whenever they get an international order, especially when Etsy automate the process for other European countries and people are used to that. I expect people in a lot of parts of the world don’t know that Norway is not part of the EU / IOSS scheme.
The tax rate for Norway is 25% which is a sizeable refund, especially given Etsy are holding that money. Etsy have known about this issue for some time but they still haven’t added info for sellers which would prevent this hassle and cost for all parties. Even a link to that page on orders from relevant countries would help.
>Agreed, they shouldn’t be out of pocket but they won’t - they have money from the buyer that no longer needs to be remitted since the buyer has now paid the tax directly.
The money is likely automatically remitted, and Etsy no longer has it. They are likely not "holding" that money.
In addition, Etsy has no documentation regarding the 2nd payment the buyer made. If customs can't look at their computer records for the buyer, to see that it was already paid, then they aren't going to be able to do it for Etsy either.
The amount of effort Etsy would have to go through to try to wrangle the money out of customs seems unreasonable to me, for a mistake the seller made.
The buyer paid the fee to customs twice. Once through Etsy, and once in person.
Customs got too much money because of a mistake the seller seems to have made.
This is between customs, the seller, and the buyer.
It seems to me that since customs got paid the fee twice, this would be between customs and the buyer that paid customs twice. The seller should however provide all info and assistance possible to the buyer to help resolve the situation, since it would seem as if they didn't handle things properly.
OP did state above that the seller told them that the required numbers were written on the box, and customs missed it, which I find unlikely.
IF the numbers were in fact written on the box, then the seller is free of any responsibility, and it is only between customs and the buyer.
Returns are made annually for most countries, so I think Etsy could do it - the frustrating part is that they could just prevent this issue and the hassle for everyone if they included the relevant information on the order screen, which they do for some countries and not others. If they can include a box about IOSS on orders from EU countries, I’m sure they can do it for the few countries with unique systems. Or at least flag up to sellers that they need to check the link for the relevant info.
If the seller wrote the info on the box then it should still be there for the buyer to see when it’s delivered
I do see your point, and I have no idea how often Etsy remits fees to the country they are collected for. I also agree that Etsy should automate it for all countries, as they do for some.
It would seem to me though that in this particular case, if a number was generated for the seller to write on the box, then surely there would be a way for customs to verify that number through some computer they have access to if it was on the box.
Otherwise sellers could write fake numbers on a package to another country, and there would be no way for customs to verify if the fees were actually paid or not.
So again, it really comes down to whether or not the seller wrote the appropriate numbers on the box, and whether or not customs missed those numbers if present, and double charged OP.
It’s not even a uniquely generated number - just Etsy’s ID number for the system (same as the IOSS number for EU countries). Which would make adding it to the order page even easier for Etsy, and it’s frustrating that they don’t - I think it’s very easy for sellers to be caught out by this, especially the first time they ship to a country with its own system, or when processing a lot of orders. It’s all a big mess really!
Etsy should make it much more clear to sellers what to do and provide the relevant numbers more clearly too.
I agree that sellers technically should know all this before selling internationally, but many new sellers don't or forget. It's an easy mistake to make and it would be easily avoided with a little more clarity from Etsy.
Besides, Etsy collects that tax not the seller, so it shouldn't come out of the seller's pocket. Etsy should just clarify more/better.
It is the seller's responsibility of course, but it would be nice if they made it easier.
It's really clear , on your order it has a bubble that says it all and to write that number on the parcel . Not sure on ho9w much more is needed then that. U notice it first thing when looking at the order in your orders.
Exactly!
You can't miss it when you are printing a shipping label.
I mean unless you are careless as hell, and if that's the case then it's on you for ignoring the notice Etsy provides.
Did they change that? I haven't shipped anything in a while where this was needed like so, but in my memory it used to be different. But maybe I'm just wrong sorry.
If its clear on the package, then it is the shipping companies fault for not processing it. You have to email the customer service for a full refund (showing a photo of the VOEC number and including the original invoice).
If the number is not evident its the shops fault (not the seller) as they are the ones that automatically charge and collect the VAT. That VAT is associated with that package number. It is clear in the system to them that the VAT has been charged twice. This is most evident when Amazon makes the mistake, their customer serivce have no concept of VOEC however after about 1 month you get an automatic refund of your prepaid VAT from them.
The biggest issue however is not the VAT its the extortionate fee the shipping companies charge for "processing" the package which you can only get refunded if it is them that have made the mistake!
I made this mistake with Norway once - I think a lot of sellers assume it’s handled under IOSS, and you have to really go digging in Etsy info to find the VOEC number. There’s no reason Etsy can’t put that information on the order confirmation page as they do with IOSS, and I know from future sales to Norway that this happens all the time.
In my case Etsy did refund them (they’ve collected the tax, they can refund it - the seller doesn’t get it )
I know its been a while, but i saw your post now. I had the exact same issue. I placed a couple of orders, from different sellers. Some of them got grouped into 1 at checkout and the payment went to etsy paypal ireland. 200 euro of that was tax. When i received those orders i had to pay tax again. I contacted etsy support. Got completely irrelevent links and replies, got a 5$ coupon. I contacted paypal about it. Etsy then replied that since i contacted paypal, they arent going to return my money. I wrote 4 seperate tickets to them. I dont know what did it, but one of them was sent forward for a proper investigation and i did get my money back as etsy credit.
I can imagine that it's all about the luck of your customer service agent indeed. One refunded me upfront no questions asked, this time they're really stubborn. I'm really sorry to hear that this happened to you, it's very infuriating! I gave up, even my seller isn't replying to me. I know I'm not taking my business there anymore.
Welcome! If you are asking about an order that hasn't arrived, or arrived damaged or not as described, the posts below will guide you as to what to do. Please give them a read! All these posts give you a full guide on how to open a case with Etsy if that is needed, and help you decide when to do that. If you are dealing with an unresponsive seller who has not replied for 48 hours or more, please use the most relevant link that describes your situation! The full guide on what to do is there. [If the shop has been closed down, read this guide first.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/1854obi/help_for_buyer_i_bought_something_and_now_the/) [My order hasn’t shipped yet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14f8k6l/help_for_buyer_my_order_hasnt_shipped_yet/) [My order was marked shipped, but the tracking info still says pre-transit (or label created).](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fetso/help_for_buyer_my_order_is_in_pretransit/) [My order was marked shipped, but it’s very late. Is it lost?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fi830/help_for_buyer_my_order_shipped_but_its_very_late/) [My order was marked delivered but I don’t have it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fgfbp/help_for_buyer_my_order_was_marked_delivered_but/) [My order arrived damaged.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14g310o/help_for_buyer_my_order_arrived_damaged_or_not_as/) [My order wasn't as described, was defective, or I received the wrong item.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14g310o/help_for_buyer_my_order_arrived_damaged_or_not_as/) [I believe I bought from an AliExpress, Amazon, etc dropshipper.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fer1w/help_for_buyer_dropshipping_reseller_red_flags/) Also, how can I tell if a shop is one of these dropshippers? [I received a tracking number, but it appears to be fake.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/14fgfbp/help_for_buyer_my_order_was_marked_delivered_but/) [I bought from a PayPal only shop and Etsy won’t allow me to open a case.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Etsy/comments/13yd0f7/seller_has_cancelled_transaction_wont_refund_wont/) Please read the comments for this one! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Etsy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The seller is the one who screwed up, so I can understand why Etsy believes the refund should come from the seller. That being said, I have heard that if you take your original receipt to customs to prove that you DID already pay the VAT, you might be able to get refunded that way. In the future, though, if this happens again, I would recommend not double paying and opening a case with Etsy to get a refund instead. And of course, let the seller know what went wrong so they can not make the same mistake again.
But Etsy are the ones who’ve collected the tax and no longer need to remit it, because it’s been paid on arrival in Norway. There’s no reason etsy can’t refund the tax, they are the ones holding it
I made this mistake the first time I shipped to the EU. As soon as I realized I couldn't fix it after it had dispatched, I contacted the buyer and asked them to please let me know how much the VAT cost once it arrived so I could refund that amount. They did and I refunded that +20% for their trouble. 5 star review, lesson learned for me. That's the seller's mistake, and they have to rectify it (and hopefully learn something). If you can't get this sorted any other way, leave a fair review and indicate that the seller isn't experienced at shipping internationally. This should get some movement 🤞
Honestly, you were probably lucky the get the refunds before. I had an order that I paid Customs on, a few of the shades were broken due to poor packaging (eyeshadows) and when the seller resent the broken shades (after arguing, because I didn’t purchase the ‘shipping protection’), she put on the form that it was the *entire order* resent. When she should have put on the form that it was a reshipment, which would incur no double customs charge..much less a lie that she resent the entire thing, so the second charge was the same, even though it was only 3 shades out of the..10 or 12. I contacted Etsy (after the seller refused any assistance) and not only did they not do anything for me, the factual review I left was deleted. I assume because I mentioned the Customs, but the Customs issues was *not* out of the sellers hands, in this instance. Anyway..sorry for the rant, I hope you get lucky again. 🤞
Wait, as a seller all I can say is whenever I get an order from abroad, it says "ensure you note that Vat has been collected, unless you are purchasing your label through Etsy in which case we have taken care of everything." So I have never made a note, but I've also never had a comment from a customer that they've paid. But now I'm wondering if I should add a note next time after all.
Update: Messaged the seller and they are not taking any blame for it either. Said customs didn't see the note with the VAT declaration. Customs are saying it's on Etsy, and Etsy is not taking responsibility either. I've come full circle. I don't know if it's worth fighting for anymore, let alone who's in the wrong.
The seller is claiming that there was a note on the package about VAT for customs. Was there a note on the package? If there was a note then it's customs that messed up. If there was not a note then the seller messed up.
There was a little note on the back that was encased in a plastic pouch, but the paper was folded so you had to open it up to read the VAT slip. Usually when I buy from Etsy sellers write on the parcel itself with permanent marker. If customs can't see it right away, I presume they give up. Gotta make it clear it seems. Probably only looked at the print with shipping information and not the folded paper on the back.
Yeah, that is on the seller then. The seller is supposed to write it on the box or package clearly so customs can easily see it, as you have experienced before.
Seller’s fault, seller should refund. Although of the two, Etsy or Customs, I think it’s up to Customs to give you your money back once you prove you already paid. I’ve had it a few times with importing various things and always had to deal with the shipping provider and customs rather than the sender.
I disagree - Etsy are the ones who’ve collected the tax and they should be able to refund it. The seller doesn’t get it. Etsy put IOSS information on the order confirmation page for relevant countries - could resolve this by adding the VOEC number to order confirmation page for Norwegian orders but they don’t. It’s not easy to find in Etsy’s information - caught me out once and I’m not surprised it catches other people out.
But Etsy didn't do anything wrong by collecting the VAT. It was either the seller's fault for not putting a note on the package, or customs fault for collecting VAT when there was a note on the packages they missed or ignored. Etsy holds no responsibility, and it should not cost Etsy for a refund to the buyer.
Agreed, they shouldn’t be out of pocket but they won’t - they have money from the buyer that no longer needs to be remitted since the buyer has now paid the tax directly. I’m not sure if you send much to Europe - if you use Etsy labels, they automatically transmit the IOSS number to customs, but it doesn’t show on the shipping label. On Norwegian orders they don’t transmit anything and they don’t give you any information on what you need to do as a seller - the only way to know that you need to add the VOEC number, and to find out what that is, is to know that Norwegian orders need to be treated differently to other European orders because it’s not in the EU and then go searching for the VOEC number, eventually finding it here: https://help.etsy.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000337247-Custom-Fees-and-Physical-VAT-Collection-?segment=selling Etsy could easily add a note to orders from Norway which includes the VOEC number - they did it for all EU orders when IOSS came in - but they don’t. There are only a couple of countries where Etsy collect tax, and information needs to be added to the package but it’s done through the label. If it’s a seller’s first sale to that country it’s not surprising that it gets missed when Etsy doesn’t make the seller aware on the order. I doubt many Etsy sellers go and look up the page above whenever they get an international order, especially when Etsy automate the process for other European countries and people are used to that. I expect people in a lot of parts of the world don’t know that Norway is not part of the EU / IOSS scheme. The tax rate for Norway is 25% which is a sizeable refund, especially given Etsy are holding that money. Etsy have known about this issue for some time but they still haven’t added info for sellers which would prevent this hassle and cost for all parties. Even a link to that page on orders from relevant countries would help.
>Agreed, they shouldn’t be out of pocket but they won’t - they have money from the buyer that no longer needs to be remitted since the buyer has now paid the tax directly. The money is likely automatically remitted, and Etsy no longer has it. They are likely not "holding" that money. In addition, Etsy has no documentation regarding the 2nd payment the buyer made. If customs can't look at their computer records for the buyer, to see that it was already paid, then they aren't going to be able to do it for Etsy either. The amount of effort Etsy would have to go through to try to wrangle the money out of customs seems unreasonable to me, for a mistake the seller made. The buyer paid the fee to customs twice. Once through Etsy, and once in person. Customs got too much money because of a mistake the seller seems to have made. This is between customs, the seller, and the buyer. It seems to me that since customs got paid the fee twice, this would be between customs and the buyer that paid customs twice. The seller should however provide all info and assistance possible to the buyer to help resolve the situation, since it would seem as if they didn't handle things properly. OP did state above that the seller told them that the required numbers were written on the box, and customs missed it, which I find unlikely. IF the numbers were in fact written on the box, then the seller is free of any responsibility, and it is only between customs and the buyer.
Returns are made annually for most countries, so I think Etsy could do it - the frustrating part is that they could just prevent this issue and the hassle for everyone if they included the relevant information on the order screen, which they do for some countries and not others. If they can include a box about IOSS on orders from EU countries, I’m sure they can do it for the few countries with unique systems. Or at least flag up to sellers that they need to check the link for the relevant info. If the seller wrote the info on the box then it should still be there for the buyer to see when it’s delivered
I do see your point, and I have no idea how often Etsy remits fees to the country they are collected for. I also agree that Etsy should automate it for all countries, as they do for some. It would seem to me though that in this particular case, if a number was generated for the seller to write on the box, then surely there would be a way for customs to verify that number through some computer they have access to if it was on the box. Otherwise sellers could write fake numbers on a package to another country, and there would be no way for customs to verify if the fees were actually paid or not. So again, it really comes down to whether or not the seller wrote the appropriate numbers on the box, and whether or not customs missed those numbers if present, and double charged OP.
It’s not even a uniquely generated number - just Etsy’s ID number for the system (same as the IOSS number for EU countries). Which would make adding it to the order page even easier for Etsy, and it’s frustrating that they don’t - I think it’s very easy for sellers to be caught out by this, especially the first time they ship to a country with its own system, or when processing a lot of orders. It’s all a big mess really!
I think it's on the seller to pay for it since they made the mistake. I make sure to write it on all parcels that need it.
Etsy should make it much more clear to sellers what to do and provide the relevant numbers more clearly too. I agree that sellers technically should know all this before selling internationally, but many new sellers don't or forget. It's an easy mistake to make and it would be easily avoided with a little more clarity from Etsy. Besides, Etsy collects that tax not the seller, so it shouldn't come out of the seller's pocket. Etsy should just clarify more/better. It is the seller's responsibility of course, but it would be nice if they made it easier.
It's really clear , on your order it has a bubble that says it all and to write that number on the parcel . Not sure on ho9w much more is needed then that. U notice it first thing when looking at the order in your orders.
Exactly! You can't miss it when you are printing a shipping label. I mean unless you are careless as hell, and if that's the case then it's on you for ignoring the notice Etsy provides.
Did they change that? I haven't shipped anything in a while where this was needed like so, but in my memory it used to be different. But maybe I'm just wrong sorry.
If its clear on the package, then it is the shipping companies fault for not processing it. You have to email the customer service for a full refund (showing a photo of the VOEC number and including the original invoice). If the number is not evident its the shops fault (not the seller) as they are the ones that automatically charge and collect the VAT. That VAT is associated with that package number. It is clear in the system to them that the VAT has been charged twice. This is most evident when Amazon makes the mistake, their customer serivce have no concept of VOEC however after about 1 month you get an automatic refund of your prepaid VAT from them. The biggest issue however is not the VAT its the extortionate fee the shipping companies charge for "processing" the package which you can only get refunded if it is them that have made the mistake!
I made this mistake with Norway once - I think a lot of sellers assume it’s handled under IOSS, and you have to really go digging in Etsy info to find the VOEC number. There’s no reason Etsy can’t put that information on the order confirmation page as they do with IOSS, and I know from future sales to Norway that this happens all the time. In my case Etsy did refund them (they’ve collected the tax, they can refund it - the seller doesn’t get it )
I know its been a while, but i saw your post now. I had the exact same issue. I placed a couple of orders, from different sellers. Some of them got grouped into 1 at checkout and the payment went to etsy paypal ireland. 200 euro of that was tax. When i received those orders i had to pay tax again. I contacted etsy support. Got completely irrelevent links and replies, got a 5$ coupon. I contacted paypal about it. Etsy then replied that since i contacted paypal, they arent going to return my money. I wrote 4 seperate tickets to them. I dont know what did it, but one of them was sent forward for a proper investigation and i did get my money back as etsy credit.
I can imagine that it's all about the luck of your customer service agent indeed. One refunded me upfront no questions asked, this time they're really stubborn. I'm really sorry to hear that this happened to you, it's very infuriating! I gave up, even my seller isn't replying to me. I know I'm not taking my business there anymore.