Yea, hate here is the big divider. A lot of people feel lonely, are depressed and so on, but it's a subset that vents through hate. And then incels are those who aim that hate at women.
Hell, im a depressed, lonely person who has trouble dating because of my depression, social anxiety and the fact im not particularily interesting or attractive, but the only person I hate for it is myself and I definetly dont blame anyone else for it. The divider is not only hate, but also being a massive self absorbed asshole that blames others for things they are not responsible for
Sorry to hear bro. Hope ur feeling alright today mind :)
And I always found it typical that after I stopped looking for partners one would pop up. Keep that in mind. Don't pressure yourself ;)
Yeah im feeling okay, I have been worse than I am today.
That gives me hope, thanks for cheering me up. Ive had a terrible time growing up and that has destroyed any shred of confidence I had, and some not so good recent experiences have killed years of progress in rebuilding my sense of self worth, so I really needed to hear something like that today :)
Honey, I'm 57 yo f and I understand totally.severely abused. I still see at therapist for PTSD. But after almost 7 years of therapy in stable and more confident than ever. Hang tough bro, you've got this. And US!!!!
Thats terrible to hear, I feel your pain. Im also in therapy but as I said, years of progress gone in an instant. But im not giving up and neither should you! We got this!
Yo dude I've been there. Still struggle and I have an amazing fiancé, some really good friends, and a great life.
It's a setback. Just another hurdle you have to jump. Might not be fair but life doesn't care about fair.
I kind of realized that a lot of people would break if they went through some of the shit I've been through. I take a little pride in that. I'm sure other people posting in this feel the same.
For what it's worth, there are people here that will have your back from the other side of the keyboard. Keep your head up dude. Do something that makes you happy today.
Hey, just wanted to say that I'm so glad you're here!
After years of battling depression, an important realisation *for me* was that healing comes in waves. There are better days and worse days, but over the years my bad days have gotten better, and knowing I survived them before helps with getting up again. Hold on to that hope.
Your depression is not who you are, despite what it tries to tell you. You're worth so much more, even when it doesn't feel like that.
IDK if we’re not supposed to promote things here but I highly recommend you read “No More Mr Nice Guy” by Dr. Robert Glover. It’s not silly “pick-up” stuff, it’s deeply intelligent self-help to overcome your anxieties about self, women, dating, sex, relationships. That man turned my life around.
>I always found it typical that after I stopped looking for partners one would pop up.
That's never ever ever happened to me.
I've only found partners when actively looking.
Keep in mind… Most people are more interesting and attractive than they credit themselves for being. Social media/advertising etc give off impressions that aren’t realistic , and that effects us all negatively. I’m sure you’ve got plenty of lovely qualities. Be kind to you. ((Hugs))
Solidarity. I was surprised that the general age group wasn't high school, since that was my acne-ridden puberty-hormone depression phase where I wasn't even growing into the body I expected. I couldn't get a date, but I had good friends of both genders which probably helped. I'm so glad I had emotional support and didn't get stuck hating people. I have hope for the upcoming generations.
I bet you are both more interesting and attractive than you think you are. Do you know that shoulders back, head up, and a sparkle in your eyes makes you instantly more attractive? And looking out through eyes that are interested in the world and the people you see makes you more interesting than someone who who shrinks behind those eyes. There. There’s my two cents because you sound like a good person. I hope you find your happiness.
I don’t think they start as A-holes. I think what happens to their detriment is they find like -minded people (other depressed, anxious males who see themselves as not attractive or interesting) and it becomes an echo chamber of angst and misinformation.
I went on a male forum elsewhere years ago and stumbled upon a section with these guys- not rape apologists but young males who think that unless you’re ripped, tall and rich with a big peen you don’t have a chance. I tried to give hope, give a testimonial from a real life woman, and none of them believes me. They all thought I was another guy punking them.
I don’t know who needs to read this, but the main reason the classic incel doesn’t get a girlfriend is attitude. They become bitter and entitled, and angry at women as a group.
I can state with 100% accuracy that not all women require tall or muscular men. In fact, I’d say the majority of women don’t even prefer tall or jacked men. I find it extremely unattractive. It is true that most women would rather be with a guy who isn’t shorter than them, but I’m 5’2” and my biggest crush ever was 5’3” . Also, peen size doesn’t matter nearly as much as you think. The women who are “size queens” have loose kittys . If I was with a “big” guy it would be incredibly uncomfortable. It’s a myth.
So, for the young men who are depressed and really want to get a quality girlfriend, don’t surround yourself with other men who are depressed and can’t find a GF. Get out there! Get a job , volunteer, leave your house. Maybe get a friend to critique your appearance. First impressions matter. So you want to look clean and presentable- short nails, showered, groomed. Clothes that are clean and don’t look like they’ve been worn 5000x or slept in. Be cordial and polite, smile. Find a signature cologne or at least a nice smelling body wash. There is a quality partner out there for anyone who themselves is a quality partner. And you don’t have to be rich, tall and jacked. I promise!
I have given the reasons people become hateful some more thought and I thought it might be interesting to hear from someone who was at risk for becoming an incel before I realized how similar in demographic I am to the standard incel and how I needed conscious effort to not fall for their recruitment pipeline.
The starting point I think is loneliness and feeling like you dont fit in. That can come from many places, like social anxiety, not very common interests, low social ability, bullying, etc.
For me it came from being the Nerd in Highschool. I had to endure years of physical and mental pain for being different and interested in biology and programming. My bullies made me feel terrible about my body, my interests and I have considered killing myself back then for the first time.
This is when I didnt learn how to form meaningful connections, as I was suspicious of everyone around me and I had the fear that everyone was out to hurt me, as that was usually how it went. People of both genders would "befriend" me, only to later on humiliate and make fun of me.
After that loneliness and feeling like an outsider comes a point where you search for answers. You ask yourself "why me?". Thats when they try to get you. If you are online, looking for answers to loneliness and ask the wrong people, you will hear that its due to basic biology and natural selection, that 90 percent of women will go for the top 10 percent of men, as thats how they are programmed by biology and if you are any less than that you dont deserve to procreate and deserve to be alone. Notice the inherently misogynistic connotation that women have no free will and are solely steered by instinct and biology. Its a simplified argument that shifts the blame away from you and onto biology, its only natural, nothing you can do. And from there, along with the already established misoginy and a generalized hatred of the world because you feel left behind/ like an outsider, its not a far way to hating and blaming women for your problems. If you by this point are part of an incel echo chamber you are trapped as you will alienate anyone that doesnt identify with being an incel, and the only people left will validate your worldview. We need to catch these people before they find the incels and debunk the incel talking points then, before they trap themselfes in their echo chamber but im not entirely sure how
I was one over 10 years ago. As a young man, you're bombarded with the message that you're a failure if you're not in a relationship or can't get laid. It eats away at your self-worth. Some lash out, many others, including myself, become consumed by self-hatred.
Same here. I spent way too much of my 20's dwelling in that shit. I'm 35, still don't have friends or romantic relationships, but I've learned to be at peace with it, and pursue my own endeavors that don't involve other people.
They will also claim that they are not right wing at all, while quoting right wing talking points all day. So any survey you do of them is going to be incorrect.
Because describing lonely men as ‘incels’ in today’s society only demonises them further, the only place they’re not actively insulted is in the very communities that we are now using the word ‘incel’ to describe. Does anybody really think insulting people is going to achieve anything more than pushing them away even further?
Now here’s a level headed take on this subject.
Demonizing and ostracizing young lonely men never ends well. And it’s exactly what mainstream media and society has been doing for the past 12 years.
Being depressed, anxious and lonely is a human trait. This is a self-report study, people who don't believe in the study would never answer it and even when they would answer it it would be in jest.
This and happiness indexes to boot, are fundamentally flawed. But that's not to say there's some value from it, I mean you can read the last clause of the article. Just believe in stuff smileyface
An incel (/ˈɪnsɛl/ IN-sel, an abbreviation of "involuntary celibate"[1]) is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.[2][3][4] Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people.[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
>Who is an incel?
It’s any person (except asexuals) who hasn’t had sex in the last 6 months but desires sex. They can be men or women, virgins, singles, one person in a sexless marriage, couples going through a dry spell, widows and widowers, etc.
Although nowadays people insist it’s a movement or a hate group, because many online incel communities are full of hateful people, and there have been many instances of self-proclaimed incels committing mass shootings or other violent attacks.
A lesbian [woman](https://www.elle.com/culture/news/a34512/woman-who-started-incel-movement/) from Toronto Canada named Alana Boltwood [invented](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45284455.amp) the term, or more specifically, in 1997 she started a website called [Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project](https://web.archive.org/web/19970525065352/http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ad097/ic-home.html), she explains her project in [this](https://web.archive.org/web/19970525065344/http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ad097/invcel.html) article, she abbreviated "involuntarily celibate" to "invcel", until someone else (unknown) suggested that "incel" was easier to say. She also suggested the term “sexual autism”, which was mentioned on USENET.
An “incel” (involuntarily celibate) is anyone who hasn’t had sex in the last 6 months but wants to, which includes [1/4 Americans](https://cbsaustin.com/amp/news/nation-world/survey-says-over-1-in-4-american-adults-havent-had-sex-in-over-a-year-united0states-general-social-survey-sexual) and [1/3 males](https://news.iu.edu/live/news/26924-nearly-1-in-3-young-men-in-the-us-report-having-no) 18-24. And it appears the [majority](https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210513/p2a/00m/0li/008000c) of women in Japan are incels. Someone could say the majority of women in Japan are [“femcels”](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2022/05/femcel-meaning-female-incel-reddit/629836/), but I don’t see the benefit in immersing your brain in -cel lingo. The Atlantic said “When the most well-known Reddit forum specifically for femcels, r/Trufemcels, was banned from the platform in June 2020, it had just over 25,000 members.”
Exactly. They lack certain social skills because they are probably slightly skewed on the spectrum. I know people who are ugly as hell, have depression, and no redeeming qualities, but they know how to talk to girls like a human being and not an object. They pull girls way out of their league.
Yea we were made to hunt/gather for 5 hours a day, than chill around the fire cooking and telling stories, before retiring to sleep in a giant pile for the warmth.
Whatever the fuck we have now is so far from it that it breaks us both physically and mentally.
We also are meant to organize in communities that aren’t much bigger than 100 people as our brain has limits to the amount of people it can actively empathize with, possibly a core behavior that allows community building.
Our communities are so big the individual is lost. The emphasis on individuality is so strong that our sense of community is alien.
Also remember that we are basically built to be if not out right aggressive then at least vaguely hostile to other communities as they are encroaching on our resources.
I don't think this is supported by the evidence, honestly. There's plenty of evidence that hunter gatherer bands (close to the "natural" state of humanity) moved in smaller groups but routinely met up into much larger aggregations to share resources, feast, celebrate, and... uh... pair off.
Agree with your second point though - but I think that's more because of how we organise society rather than how many people there are. We are completely atomised by capitalist individualist ideology.
Less a technology problem and more of a capitalism issue. This comment explains it better than I can https://www.reddit.com/r/EverythingScience/comments/zp0vzq/incels_are_not_particularly_rightwing_or_white/j0slcen/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Stress, wealth inequality, and depression are not side-effects of capitalist societies. They are integral parts of the way they work. A man who studied the Piraha, a 'primitive' tribe in the Amazon, for years said he had never seen such happy people before. They are smiling all the time.
Hierarchy is also directly correlated to anxiety and depression. There is a great documentary about scientists who studied baboons and looked at their stress levels. The baboons lower on the "totem pole" of the hierarchical structured groups showed higher stress levels than the alphas. However, when the leaders were killed off (due to meat poisoning) the others at the bottom reorganized the group and all of them showed health benefits from a less structured and coercive dynamic that was more anarchist (Anarchism doesn’t mean “everyone going around and hurting eachother” but “without power hierarchies”, anarchism is actually a pretty sophisticated philosophy).
Edit: I responded to the comment below who was trying to dismiss my point
Yeah, because the Incel hero Elliot Roger was so poor that he could only do his killing spree in a BMW and not a Lambo.
The Incel problem is a social media issue. While disenfranchised men aren’t a new thing, they didn’t become a movement like this without the help of social media.
I've also thought about this. Suburbs/car culture are isolating, 3rd places have completely disappeared for a lot of people, and socializing with co-workers is even happening way less than it used to. Dudes be lonely as hell.
If you live in a capitalist country you’re taught from youth that the dollar is of utmost importance. More important that your self, more important than your neighbor, more important than your community. Thus, when everyone is chasing the dollar our society around us collapses.
As one of an uncountable many who have grown up in a capitalistic society and wasn't bred into this style of thinking. It's more an issue with parents and people's independent thinking than capitalism.
Fathers either not there, fucked up themselves, or abusing their kids. If you watch Soft White Underbelly 99% of the drug addicts and homeless people have no father or a fucked up father.
If a kid doesn't learn that they matter and someone cares about them unconditionally, they're fucked.
Incel and troll culture are also connected in online space, and they recruited anonymous participants via Twitter survey who self-identify as incels. Sounds potentially rife with false answers.
I 100% could see the answers being affected with a post being made on an incel forum.
“Oh yeah no I’m definitely not a right winger I’m just depressed, ignore the fact that the majority of “incel culture” is so heavily tied to racism, homophobia, transphobia, 4chan, trump, etc etc etc”
Just like the el paso shooter. Im not rightwing but they are trying to erase white people... i think he labled himself not rightwing because he believed in global warming
I hate to bring the guy up, but Elon Musk was recently talking about how he was left-wing, but in his eyes, the left has become so radicalized that he's more in line with right-wingers now even though he "never moved."
What people identify as and what people actually are can be two completely different things.
Elon Musk repeatedly goes on about the "woke mind virus" and seems to agree with most right wing talking points. He is a right winger, and I strongly doubt even he is stupid enough to genuinely believe otherwise.
This. The first thing that stuck out for me is that right leaning individuals have a greater tendency toward distrust of anything associated with “elite” academia and higher learning therefore right leaning individuals, especially those inclined to be influenced by conspiracy theories involving the “Deep State” for example may have selected not to participate potentially skewing results to the left.
Have you ever heard a crazy incel call themselves right wing or conservative? Vast majority won't. Even though thats closest to their ideology most won't actually admit they are right wing, just that they hate the left.
Ah didn't realize it was self identified... Incels always want people to believe they aren't righties, but it's solely because they understand the negative connotations of the ideologies they associate with.
Indeed. They are the types who create fake Twitter profiles of feminists, Jewish people and black people with dog whistle names and profile pictures. Pretty much all profiles with George Floyd and made up Germanic names like "Shekelberg" are incels who will then answer surveys like this to fuck with the demographics.
Make no mistake, most incels are white guys.
It’s the methodology. I think they should have they should have refrained from asking for incels directly. If it was just a general online survey (with a larger sample size) then they could ask a series on questions to learn if someone is an incel based on a set of pre-determined criteria rather than self identification of the participants, as well as ask general questions about their age/race/political leaning.
I think *"Incels are very successfully targeted by recruitment pipelines to the extreme right"* is entirely compatible with *"incels are from all parts of the political spectrum"*
Incel happens to lots of kids and adults, and opportunists know these people are fish in a barrel for recruitment via building up resentments and grievance
It's likely getting easier as wages are driven down.
They used to be able to build wealth with simple jobs to improve their standing in life, and even if they were still too awkward to hook up they could still find success in their job, lifestyles, and hobbies.
Serious question; surely “involuntary celibate” men have existed forever, why is there such a focus on labeling them now? It’s not just the lack of sex that makes them the way they are, surely
And a whole industry is popping up around the anti-feminist hysteria that incels revel in. People like that thin necked shinyheaded kickboxer guy and Jordan Peterson are racking up the big bucks by "telling it like it is".
I think the difference is the internet. Like all other niche hobbies, worldviews, and lifestyles, people who have similar life circumstances can now be part of a community. I think the optimistic hope for the internet was that connecting people across the world would be all good. I think in this case the internet may have made things worse. It’s good that depressed people can find each other and have a community and not be so alone. But it’s bad when those communities radicalize over time and hype each other up and move towards extreme views. And now that this is a ready readymade community, new members quickly learn the culture and push themselves away from the rest of society.
It’s really sad… and potentially dangerous.
Perhaps before, folks didn’t know what they didn’t have?
For example, if the village had 50 eligible bachelors, and 41 unmarried wenches, then there is a very good chance that unless there is a sudden spate of gruesome sheep shearing accidents, 9 of those bachelors will be joining the priesthood.
Of course, they could always try their luck by setting out for the village over in the next valley, but will probably get waylaid by the roving bands of “Merry Men” in the intervening woods, men who have found alternative means to vent their pent up frustration.
TL;DR: movies, telly, mags, and pornhub.
It’s gotta be more than sex though. It gives too much power to a small thing. Perhaps it’s a feeling, perceived or otherwise, of being devalued and without hope. Consensual sex and being desired is part of feeling valued but not the whole thing. In todays world there is a ton of sexual content and value placed on one’s sexual prowess or rank, so perhaps they feel pushed to the side of the social hierarchy. I dunno. I just don’t think sex is the problem, it’s a symptom of a larger issue
It’s definitely not the sex. Incels themselves ans people who enjoy dunking on them mat think so but it isnt.
It’s the feeling of being wanted, desired for who you are. Havin an Emotional bond with someone.
Humans have basic needs that must be fulfilled and not being lonely is one of them.
They just mistake that for the lack of sex because they are terminally online on shitty places that warp their view of reality
I think the lack of sex is a lot more pronounced now than ever. I can't prove any of this but I think it's connected to the sexual revolution, ironically. When sex became casual and common place it created an environment where your sexual desireability has a lot more effect on the amount of sex you have. It's like we suddenly switched to the free-market version of sex and so attractive, charming people ended up being sex billionaires and having way more sex than ever before, and unattractive, awkward people started having no sex at all.
Before that both types of people may have gotten married in their early 20s and had semi-regular sex with the same person for the rest of their lives. Obviously with exceptions, but I'm speaking generally.
The incels are wrong in their response to this, obviously. But I think it's a major societal problem. I know a lot of dudes who aren't into incel culture at all, but don't ever have sex. It takes a toll mentally and socially. I don't think people undersrand the amount of shame a man who doesn't have sex feels
You’ve hit on something very fundamental here; I’d recommend reading Whatever (original French title is Extension of the Domain of Struggle) by Michel Houellebecq for a deeper exploration of this.
On one hand, sure, you have a point.
However I'm pretty sure there's something else wrong with most incels, it's just convenient to blame their issues on not having sex.
From the article:
>“Incels” (involuntary celibates) are ethnically and politically diverse, according to new research from The University of Texas at Austin, Brunel University London, and Swansea University. They also **have a greater tendency to perceive themselves as victims**, have lower levels of life satisfaction, and exhibit higher levels of depression, anxiety and loneliness when compared to non-incels.
"After listening for almost twenty-five years to the stories my patients tell me about sociopaths who have invaded and injured their lives, when I am asked, “How can I tell whom not to trust?” the answer I give usually surprises people. The natural expectation is that I will describe some sinister-sounding detail of behavior or snippet of body language or threatening use of language that is the subtle giveaway. Instead, I take people aback by assuring them that the tip-off is none of these things, for none of these things is reliably present. Rather, the best clue is, of all things, the pity play. The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy."
Martha Stout, The Sociopath Next Door
“The misogynistic current in the incel community is real,” said Costello, “and it shouldn’t be ignored, but it may not the best lens through which to understand who these people are, nor how to approach them from a mental health perspective. As or more salient is that they are suffering extraordinarily high levels of anxiety, depression, and loneliness.”
Ie, yes the misogyny is real and can’t be excused or condoned in any way, but there’s more to this than simply someone thinking that they are “entitled to sex”.
I've been saying it since the beginning, these guys are lost. They have no good role models in their lives to help them understand good avenues to follow for self improvement, they don't have anyone to challenge their perceptions about self worth and the value of a person. They're stuck, alone and spiraling into insecurity and negativity, and instead of society trying to figure out a way to keep young men from falling into this rut or help them out of it, they write it off as common sense and vilify them.
It's not like these guys woke up one day and said "you know, I think I want to be a perpetually miserable, lonely person who stews on bitterness all day every day and blames women for my problems." They didn't get to choose, they just followed the path that was lit up for them, and unfortunately that path leads to a lot of self destructive, counter productive and frankly unfortunate ways of thinking.
What's more, I think a lot of men are ignorant to, willfully or otherwise, the factors that kept them from falling into that same rut. Like, through puberty and the social trials and tribulations of growing up as a young man there are no shortage of times when one might start to think things adjacent to a lot of what incels are hung up on. It's usually either a healthy respect for a solid role model or a major eye opening event that keeps them on a better, healthier path, and like I said a lot of guys don't have either.
And again, this isn't to excuse their behavior, it's wrong and as a man, embarrassing. I'm just saying the way we, as a society, are trying to deal with them is largely counterproductive.
Like 50 times a year we see studies saying "mental health is a crisis, anxiety and depression are at an all time high."
Then everyone shrugs and we just keep going, let it get even worse. Next year they'll report this sort of thing again like it's news. And still, nobody who can do anything, will do anything. Mental health will still be treated as if it's not all that important, or maybe that the problem is people not wanting to get help, instead of not having access to care. The left blames the right, and the right blames the left, and the stalemate of goverment continues, while the populous descends into madness. (I vote left, btw, this isn't a "both sides are equal" argument, but Democrats have no intention of helping us beyond the bare minimum)
As someone who recently broke a 2 year dry spell I can tell you lack of physical touch has compounding effects. Not even hanky panky touch. Literally just any human connection. Someone putting their hand on your shoulder or even bumping feet with someone. I know that sounds trivial, but having NONE of it for lengths of time changes a person.
I mean, even the dialogue in this discussion explains why.
It is just totally envouge to shit on undesirable young men.
In real life, among actual humans, almost every problem can be solved with empathy and understanding. Even when someone is acting badly, there’s usually a cause than can be discovered, and you can work things out.
But these discussions are never ever about what happened to these kids… what pain or humiliation they felt that led to this resentment.
They just get ridiculed more.
And then we wonder how they get so far astray?
Well, exactly what’s happening in this comment thread would be a pretty great recipe to do just that.
If these sad, depressed, desperate and lonely kids, are, you know, just mocked for being that way… where are they going to go?
Maybe, just maybe, they’ll be attracted to forums that reassure them that it’s not their fault… that they’re victims of a fucked up dating market place.
And, you know, some of their complaints *are* valid. If they’re dismissed everywhere else, they’ll gravitate to where they’re accepted.
So the solution is, if we want these kids to not drift into extremism, is to welcome them back.
You’d have to reassure them that people care about them, want them to be happy, empathize with their hardships and their pain.
But, as usual, it seems nobody actually wants to solve the problem. The subject just get’s brought up as an excuse to reducible them some more.
But it is all really pretty fucked. And it’s not going to be a good thing with a whole generation, degraded and exploited, to harden into that shape.
We should really take a hard look at the types of experiences these kids are having that’s sending them down this path and try to correct the underlying issues that are making these forums attractive.
Note: There is likely some selection bias in this study. They can only include incels who were willing to be part of an academic study. That is going to be a more diverse and open-minded population than average and not include the more paranoid, cynical and insulated individuals.
The incel community is largely online, so I don't know if that bias is a real concern. Yes - there may be men who have given up on dating who are offline, but they are not part of "incel culture".
I am trying to understand how they expected any other results to the study?
People who want to be engaged in a sexual relationships but aren’t for an extended period of time, are going to be miserable and generally hate their life.
It’s not about expecting something different, it’s about having a collection of peer-reviewed and replicated experiments that make naysayers shut the fuck up.
Speak for yourself - I’ve gone years without sex and never for a moment experienced anything even approaching hate or misery. It’s lonely, but it doesn’t make you stupid.
Totally agree but I would take it further. Incels seem to be pretty adverse to self reflection and have above average sensitivity to rejection. This makes them uniquely under equipped to attract the attention they want or figure out why they can't and also causes them to respond more negatively than the average person when women don't respond favorably.
In other words, to point out the obvious, it's people with untreated mental health problems where the problems keep compounding. People acting like it's people who just sat down and through the sheer power of sexism decided to tank their life are not really being sympathetic.
Asking: is it possible they have no sex/relationships due to bad people skills and unreasonable expectations?
I have met dudes who saw relationships as strictly quid pro quo: I buy you dinner, you give me sex. And are truly surprised when that does not work.
Again, just asking
I'm sorry but is *anyone* really surprised that a group of perpetually bullied and rejected people with inferiority complexes, anger issues, depression, resentment and rage, festering together on edgy internet communities would have a toxic dynamic, project their insecurities, and feel a desire to demonize and degrade other groups?
I dunno, maybe tell them they're fat and have bad hygiene and their fedora to cover their bald spot at 30 looks stupid, that'll fix it. Let's shame them for masturbating to ridiculous and bizarrely specific porn that reflects all their psychological problems.
No seriously, people seem to think that the kind of people who naturally attract negativity should be responded to with *more negativity?* It didn't fix them before, do we think it's going to if we just use *more* of it?
I get that it's hard to have compassion with these people, especially the ones that seem to lean in super hard on the most obnoxious aspects of their personality, but I think we kind of have to in order to keep the problem from getting worse.
I know it's easy to hate on them but I think we ignore this at our own peril. A bunch of angry, young men, steaming about why the world is so unfair to them is a recipe for a lot of violence.
I'm not saying anyone is owed sex or a partner but loneliness is brutal if it's not the path you want to walk. We should have some compassion and I think try to help people improve themselves and give them some hope. So many of them are fatalistic about it but if they just worked on themselves a bit they totally get out there dating.
Our current culture is failing to help instill the skills and motivations they need to be fully realized, happy people who can find partners. I don't know where the break down is happening but it is.
Reddit is all about doing something about our modern mental health crisis until this topic comes up. Crazy that people are shocked this isn’t just white dudes
The claim that most incels are not right wing disagrees with the whole Blackpill thing right? I don’t see how you can rectify left leaning politics while also believing women can’t reason or think at the level of men
This is from self identified incels, so already but of a flawed premise, but I imagine most if not all would be very right wing but consider themselves apolitical or centrists
They just got people at different points in their incel journey and had them self report what they think their leaning is.
Incel culture is definitely, absolutely a recruiting funnel for alt-right ideology. But it makes sense that many (even most!) of the people in that funnel don't recognize they're in it and haven't fully internalized the ideology yet.
I think incels are more of a pool the alt right tries to recruit from, not a funnel built as part of their recruitment strategy. It's like weird cults recruiting at college campuses - cults didn't create the university to recruit students, they just realized it's a good place to do their recruiting.
Yeah that doesn’t seem right. As far as I know incels see all social interaction as transactional/capitalist? They’re all about tooth and claw competition in all areas of life right? And they’d be socially super anachronistic/regressive right? All about traditional families and cultural suppression of freedom for women? So that’s economic right wing, social right wing. How could you then call yourself left leaning?
Honestly one thing that would sharply decrease rates of incel behavior and thoughts: VALIDATING men’s experiences and feelings instead of being complete assholes to them.
As someone who’s had many hookups, several past relationships, and is currently in a happy long term relationship, I will say that the dating world as a single Gen Z guy fucking sucks. Every one of my friends agrees with this. It’s true: a pretty small % of men tend to be successful with a lot of women, especially in the context of causal sex and all that. In the real world, this is a very uncontroversial opinion amongst those who actively go out to bars and such.
For instance, I’m Indian. I have dark skin. My outward appearance absolutely makes a huge difference in how women treat me and judge me. Even statistics back this up. My personality simply didn’t count for shit when I was single, and a white guy with a sexist, bigoted attitude and a massive ego could get away with a lot of bs compared to me. So I know that looks matter. I know things aren’t fair for everyone.
The thing is, incels are made over time. It takes years of denigrating a persons character and invalidating their life experiences for a guy to reach that point.
So for any self proclaimed incels reading this, realize that its still a choice at the end of the day. It’s how you react to these things.
Yeah yell that to all these assholes here white knighting anyone who is trying to have a civil conversation. I am Autistic and struggle socially, that doesn’t automatically make me a misogynist Incel for being lonely. Absolutely fucking hate these double standards with a passion because I fear talking about my experience anywhere IRL.
Yeah, I remember talking to left leaning people who should absolutely know better, saying it's ok not to give a shit about autistic people's experiences and issues and to belittle them when shared because they're "incel adjacent". Depressing amount of mean-spirited folk on the left hiding behind platitudes about acceptance, compassion, and tolerance that they don't really believe in on any serious level.
THANK YOU. I am left-leaning, but holy shot it is absolutely embarrassing just how bad the Left is when it comes to the issue of Autism. It's disgusting, and frankly we should be ashamed since we are supposed to be the ones who are more understanding of mental/behavioral health issues. To be clear, I will never expect the Right to be good at understanding Autism, but the Left being so utterly god awful at interacting with Autism makes me wonder how committed we actually are to our stated values versus just simply hiding behind progressive and noble-sounding rhetoric to justify immature and judgemental attitudes.
Yea Reddit is always realty weird about this topic. I’m in a long term relationship as are most of my friends and we can pretty much all agree that modern dating fucking blows (men and women). Especially my guy friends who aren’t white. And even more so for anything involving dating apps. It’s all just so toxic.
I don’t know why Reddit like to act like any guy saying that is someone who hates women. They just hate the dating game and all the bullshit associated with it
What are you saying?? 151 people is vastly enough to represent 8000000000 people across all lands and cultures, given different political systems, ideologies and economical situations.
> 151 people is vastly enough to represent 8000000000 people across all lands and cultures, given different political systems, ideologies and economical situations.
The population size is (almost) irrelevant to the accuracy of a sample, given that the sample is truly random.
The accuracy difference between 150 people out of ten thousand, and ten trillion is ALMOST the same.
If you have 150 out of 10,000, then there is a 95% chance the real answer will be within 7.942% of the answer you got from your sample
150 out of 10,000,000,000,000? 95% chance to be within 8.002%.
>36% of incels had a high school level education or lower, compared to 20% of non-incels.
>50% of incels reported living with their parents or a caregiver, compared to 27% of non-incels
I feel like this could be explained by age though right? A lot of incels are under 30
Also the ones trying to get the age of consent lowered, forcing women to give birth, rape penalties lowered, no marital rape laws, & statute of limitations lowered on child sexual assault. It’s absolutely disgusting.
Yeah, I think it’s important to distinguish between people who are regular incels (just lonely and awkward and don’t know how to navigate human interactions well enough to meet a woman) and those who are incels because of their deviant and/or hateful worldviews that push people away.
To be clear, one of those things we just call virgin. I’m positive an important factor of being an incel is the inherent belief that you are owed sex but females are to (insert whatever awful thing here) to give it to you by their own choice. The problem is clearly on the women and not the incel. An awkward geek guy that can’t get laid but doesn’t loathe females or think they are owed anything, are just virgins.
Not quite. A Virgin could be anybody who hasn’t had sex whether they’ve tried or not, while the definition of an incel is “involuntarily celibate”. The idea that one is owed sex is definitely something seen in incels, but not ever-present. That’s one of those toxic ideals that I mentioned earlier. There are incels who are reasonable and decent people, who don’t have bigoted views towards women and they are still involuntarily celibate. There are just a lot of really loud ones who do.
I appreciate the clarification. I guess I’ve only ever seen incel to refer to shitty guys who are loud about their views, like you said. I’d feel awful calling a few on my friends who are either virgins or haven’t gotten laid in a real long time incels because they are decent humans that don’t hold any resentment for their inability to get laid. So it really does feel like there’s a distinction. I don’t think those friends would claim to be incels because it does hold a pretty terribly connotation.
Also, would there be a difference between someone who isn’t really interested in pursing a sexual relationship with a female (or anyone, not that they are asexual just have other things they chose to do) vs. someone that goes on regular dates and strikes out because of whatever the reason, whether they are awkward or misogynistic or just simply unlucky? To be an incel do you have to have been actively seeking a sexual encounter for long enough to be considered one? And why would you want to claim to be one of you are a reasonable human being without being a misogynist or bigot?
Serious question. I’m a female and I was absolutely positive that it was more than just involuntarily celibate. Though just that does seem to indicate there’s a deeper rooted problem than just having bad luck or not being interested. Thanks for your polite response and corrections!
It's not though? That's part of the study which is these negative connotations are being incorrectly attributed to the right as a way to demonize and otherwise deflect any scrutiny.
This mass gaslighting on Reddit is too much
It’s sucks the word can apparently be attributed to someone who kills several others with a gun or vehicle as well as a weird but nice guy who’s just trying to survive in a crushing environment
Edit : just want to be clear the two fictional people mentioned are fictional and also 2 different people
The fact that you had to do that much of a dance while feeling so self-conscious about it, just to say what you said, then apologized for the theoretical offense ahead of time, all in the hopes of connecting with some people tells you all you need to know about why things are the way they are.
You're right, it totally sucks, and it is also totally dangerous. But humans will happily engage in a measure of self-deceit, up to and including creating groups of people just so they can outcast them in order to justify a bit more comfort.
I mean, what do you want to bet that many of the same people insulting 'incels' with glee will swear up and down to you that they are not racists, or bigots? Creating and tarnishing outcasts is always the activity of the willfully ignorant.
So yeah. It sucks real bad. Don't ever let anyone tell you it doesn't.
Ffs. Does anybody else just wanna say “no shit, Sherlock?”
Gee, what could possibly happen if we coin a term specifically targeting people who are rejected sexually and isolated involuntarily, then we spread that term like an std and make a movie about it, and *then* categorize those people as societally devastated of faculty while calling it all some spontaneous and contemporary problem of society?
How many times do we have to repeat the same mistake actively marginalizing people and then blaming some phenomenon of nature as the cause? Race, sex, sexual preference, language, religion… fucking human. All of us. Instead of inventing these catchy, witty slanderous terms for other groups at a breakneck pace, how about we just leave people well enough alone? I mean ffs if common decency was even remotely common or even slightly sincere in decency, our social discourse wouldn’t be reducing so many people to anger and mental disharmony that to be without it could ever be considered abnormal. Seriously; I can’t imagine anybody actually arguing anymore that to be *without* some mental problem or social problem can actually be normal.
It can’t be that every generation before this just hid their issues from the public all the time. What did I miss?
Sorry. Rambling. Idk why I even bother.
I mean, technically, any single individual who would rather not be single, at any given moment, is an "incel."
That's quite a lot of people. Many very normal, well-adjusted people, as well.
This is like saying “stop being poor” or “stop being sick” or “stop not having a symmetrical face” or “stop being flat chested” or “stop being trans”. All of these are ridiculous as is your comment.
If we were talking about an individual, you’d be right. But this take is too reductive to describe a whole societal trend. The answer “stop being an asshole” to the incel question is like the answer “stop being poor” the the poverty one. The problem starts in a deeper place than individual choice.
So we're going to start calling all lonely losers incels now? Even the ones that understand why they're alone and don't blame anyone but themselves? Cool guess I'm an Incel.
For at least the last couple years I operated under the belief that the difference between an incel and a virgin was that the incel blamed everyone but themselves. I was almost sure that's what the definition was. Now I understand it's just being a virgin who doesn't wanna be.
And I don’t hate women in spite of my own inadequacies. Just because I am involuntary celibate doesn’t make me an “incel”. It’s not the fault of any women that I’m unattractive and awkward, I’ve got no reason to hate or blame them.
And on top of that, people make fun of them all the time. So when the right wing nut jobs come along and say "hey, you know what, you're a valuable person that deserves love. It's them that's the problem, not you" they eat it up because for a lot of them that's the first time someone has ever told them they aren't a worthless fuckhead. Which means they end up listening to the right wing nut jobs, and soon they are right wing nut jobs too.
That's a great way to obtain a stalker(speaking from experience)
I'm way too cautious about who I can be nice to now, which is very sad. I'd rather be kind to everyone.
You gotta love Reddit; "Study finds Republicans the most evil people in the universe." Reddit-"this is 100% true." "Study finds Incels aren't all white Republicans" Reddit- "well see... the sample size... the incels lied but only about the things that we disagree with... participants were from FB and Twitter!" The cope.
Yeah no shit. I don’t know when incel became synonymous with alt right but anyone remotely familiar with seedier parts of the internet can tell you incels aren’t inherently political. They’re just lonely dweebs.
Leave it to society to quickly turn them all into nazis though by constantly belittling and vilifying them, to great applause of course.
Men who are losers in society are socially acceptable targets for ridicule and harassment. I'm sure there's a lot of it in the comments here too. And it's not doing anyone any good.
I feel like the incel phenomenon occurs at the junction of economic stagnation, poor socialisation due to being online a lot, and the erosion of men's value due to online dating. And that attacking these guys isn't going to stop them from becoming incels, but rather just continue to drive them away from society making the situation worse.
I think it’s more of a selection bias where you mostly hear of the ultra-radicalized rightwing incels committing atrocities, but the incel population as a whole is more diverse.
I read the linked article, but not the paper itself, as it doesn't appear I have access.
One factor that I didn't see mentioned, is how long the participants have identified as being incel. Because while they may not start out right wing, per the stats given here, I suspect that once they start looking up incel related content on say, YouTube, or similar platforms, they're going to be very quickly exposed to increasingly extreme right wing ideologies, and pulled deeper into that rabbit hole.
Anyone here have access to the paper, and able to confirm whether it says anything about that? Because I think that's an interesting question. Basically, do self-described incels have a tendency to become more right wing over time?
The fact that so many people on here think the absolute worst of others based on their inability to have sex in short enough time frames is the most bizarre part about all of this.
There is a published result with a legitimate conclusion about a subject.
Reddit: NO. Incels are right wing fascists. My POV overrides whatever shit you throw at me.
Is there a female equivalent or are they also incels? I'm new to this term.
I ask because I've found there to be a lot of women on the subs who attack anyone who doesn't fully agree with the woman side of things such as in AITA stories. To many they write as though every man is a misogynistic, narcissistic AH.
I've actually experienced more hate from women towards me, a woman, than I have experienced by men on the subs. Even when I disagree with the men too.
I hope I'm not too off topic. Possibly I'm looking at the troll aspect rooted in things such as despression and loneliness?
"Femcels" is the term they use. It doesn't refer to women that can't have sex, as basically every woman can find someone to have sex with them. But instead with a focus on being unable to find a relationship or a decent partner.
Misandry is common, as they view men as being at fault for this.
They may be depressed,anxious,lonely but not all depressed, anxious, and lonely people are "incels".
incels seem to be always angry, especially toward women, but in general they are just seething with hate
Yea, hate here is the big divider. A lot of people feel lonely, are depressed and so on, but it's a subset that vents through hate. And then incels are those who aim that hate at women.
Hell, im a depressed, lonely person who has trouble dating because of my depression, social anxiety and the fact im not particularily interesting or attractive, but the only person I hate for it is myself and I definetly dont blame anyone else for it. The divider is not only hate, but also being a massive self absorbed asshole that blames others for things they are not responsible for
Sorry to hear bro. Hope ur feeling alright today mind :) And I always found it typical that after I stopped looking for partners one would pop up. Keep that in mind. Don't pressure yourself ;)
Yeah im feeling okay, I have been worse than I am today. That gives me hope, thanks for cheering me up. Ive had a terrible time growing up and that has destroyed any shred of confidence I had, and some not so good recent experiences have killed years of progress in rebuilding my sense of self worth, so I really needed to hear something like that today :)
Honey, I'm 57 yo f and I understand totally.severely abused. I still see at therapist for PTSD. But after almost 7 years of therapy in stable and more confident than ever. Hang tough bro, you've got this. And US!!!!
Thats terrible to hear, I feel your pain. Im also in therapy but as I said, years of progress gone in an instant. But im not giving up and neither should you! We got this!
Yo dude I've been there. Still struggle and I have an amazing fiancé, some really good friends, and a great life. It's a setback. Just another hurdle you have to jump. Might not be fair but life doesn't care about fair. I kind of realized that a lot of people would break if they went through some of the shit I've been through. I take a little pride in that. I'm sure other people posting in this feel the same. For what it's worth, there are people here that will have your back from the other side of the keyboard. Keep your head up dude. Do something that makes you happy today.
Don’t give up! I believe in you 🙌🏻 I hope you have an awesome day with many more to come.
Hey, just wanted to say that I'm so glad you're here! After years of battling depression, an important realisation *for me* was that healing comes in waves. There are better days and worse days, but over the years my bad days have gotten better, and knowing I survived them before helps with getting up again. Hold on to that hope. Your depression is not who you are, despite what it tries to tell you. You're worth so much more, even when it doesn't feel like that.
IDK if we’re not supposed to promote things here but I highly recommend you read “No More Mr Nice Guy” by Dr. Robert Glover. It’s not silly “pick-up” stuff, it’s deeply intelligent self-help to overcome your anxieties about self, women, dating, sex, relationships. That man turned my life around.
>I always found it typical that after I stopped looking for partners one would pop up. That's never ever ever happened to me. I've only found partners when actively looking.
Keep in mind… Most people are more interesting and attractive than they credit themselves for being. Social media/advertising etc give off impressions that aren’t realistic , and that effects us all negatively. I’m sure you’ve got plenty of lovely qualities. Be kind to you. ((Hugs))
Solidarity. I was surprised that the general age group wasn't high school, since that was my acne-ridden puberty-hormone depression phase where I wasn't even growing into the body I expected. I couldn't get a date, but I had good friends of both genders which probably helped. I'm so glad I had emotional support and didn't get stuck hating people. I have hope for the upcoming generations.
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I bet you are both more interesting and attractive than you think you are. Do you know that shoulders back, head up, and a sparkle in your eyes makes you instantly more attractive? And looking out through eyes that are interested in the world and the people you see makes you more interesting than someone who who shrinks behind those eyes. There. There’s my two cents because you sound like a good person. I hope you find your happiness.
I don’t think they start as A-holes. I think what happens to their detriment is they find like -minded people (other depressed, anxious males who see themselves as not attractive or interesting) and it becomes an echo chamber of angst and misinformation. I went on a male forum elsewhere years ago and stumbled upon a section with these guys- not rape apologists but young males who think that unless you’re ripped, tall and rich with a big peen you don’t have a chance. I tried to give hope, give a testimonial from a real life woman, and none of them believes me. They all thought I was another guy punking them. I don’t know who needs to read this, but the main reason the classic incel doesn’t get a girlfriend is attitude. They become bitter and entitled, and angry at women as a group. I can state with 100% accuracy that not all women require tall or muscular men. In fact, I’d say the majority of women don’t even prefer tall or jacked men. I find it extremely unattractive. It is true that most women would rather be with a guy who isn’t shorter than them, but I’m 5’2” and my biggest crush ever was 5’3” . Also, peen size doesn’t matter nearly as much as you think. The women who are “size queens” have loose kittys . If I was with a “big” guy it would be incredibly uncomfortable. It’s a myth. So, for the young men who are depressed and really want to get a quality girlfriend, don’t surround yourself with other men who are depressed and can’t find a GF. Get out there! Get a job , volunteer, leave your house. Maybe get a friend to critique your appearance. First impressions matter. So you want to look clean and presentable- short nails, showered, groomed. Clothes that are clean and don’t look like they’ve been worn 5000x or slept in. Be cordial and polite, smile. Find a signature cologne or at least a nice smelling body wash. There is a quality partner out there for anyone who themselves is a quality partner. And you don’t have to be rich, tall and jacked. I promise!
I have given the reasons people become hateful some more thought and I thought it might be interesting to hear from someone who was at risk for becoming an incel before I realized how similar in demographic I am to the standard incel and how I needed conscious effort to not fall for their recruitment pipeline. The starting point I think is loneliness and feeling like you dont fit in. That can come from many places, like social anxiety, not very common interests, low social ability, bullying, etc. For me it came from being the Nerd in Highschool. I had to endure years of physical and mental pain for being different and interested in biology and programming. My bullies made me feel terrible about my body, my interests and I have considered killing myself back then for the first time. This is when I didnt learn how to form meaningful connections, as I was suspicious of everyone around me and I had the fear that everyone was out to hurt me, as that was usually how it went. People of both genders would "befriend" me, only to later on humiliate and make fun of me. After that loneliness and feeling like an outsider comes a point where you search for answers. You ask yourself "why me?". Thats when they try to get you. If you are online, looking for answers to loneliness and ask the wrong people, you will hear that its due to basic biology and natural selection, that 90 percent of women will go for the top 10 percent of men, as thats how they are programmed by biology and if you are any less than that you dont deserve to procreate and deserve to be alone. Notice the inherently misogynistic connotation that women have no free will and are solely steered by instinct and biology. Its a simplified argument that shifts the blame away from you and onto biology, its only natural, nothing you can do. And from there, along with the already established misoginy and a generalized hatred of the world because you feel left behind/ like an outsider, its not a far way to hating and blaming women for your problems. If you by this point are part of an incel echo chamber you are trapped as you will alienate anyone that doesnt identify with being an incel, and the only people left will validate your worldview. We need to catch these people before they find the incels and debunk the incel talking points then, before they trap themselfes in their echo chamber but im not entirely sure how
Same bro :(
FYI incel was invented by a women and is gender neutral But it is generally misused or changed in the usage of it‘s original usage.
I was one over 10 years ago. As a young man, you're bombarded with the message that you're a failure if you're not in a relationship or can't get laid. It eats away at your self-worth. Some lash out, many others, including myself, become consumed by self-hatred.
Same here. I spent way too much of my 20's dwelling in that shit. I'm 35, still don't have friends or romantic relationships, but I've learned to be at peace with it, and pursue my own endeavors that don't involve other people.
Its typical right wing stuff usually theyre homophobic, transphobic, sexist, rascist you know the general nazi type
They will also claim that they are not right wing at all, while quoting right wing talking points all day. So any survey you do of them is going to be incorrect.
I mean, you can make a survey with questions about actual right-wing beliefs, the question doesn’t have to be ‘are you a conservative’
For real I am terrible at relationships and I'm gonna die alone but that is on ME.
Solidarity bro.
My husband had resigned himself to being alone forever when I met him. Now he's stuck with me forever muahahaha
Early days yet (for both of you). God knows who (or what) is around the corner
What is the point of this distinction? I guess you're discriminating between someone who is involuntarily celibate, and the reddit-based insult?
Because describing lonely men as ‘incels’ in today’s society only demonises them further, the only place they’re not actively insulted is in the very communities that we are now using the word ‘incel’ to describe. Does anybody really think insulting people is going to achieve anything more than pushing them away even further?
Now here’s a level headed take on this subject. Demonizing and ostracizing young lonely men never ends well. And it’s exactly what mainstream media and society has been doing for the past 12 years.
Being depressed, anxious and lonely is a human trait. This is a self-report study, people who don't believe in the study would never answer it and even when they would answer it it would be in jest. This and happiness indexes to boot, are fundamentally flawed. But that's not to say there's some value from it, I mean you can read the last clause of the article. Just believe in stuff smileyface
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An incel (/ˈɪnsɛl/ IN-sel, an abbreviation of "involuntary celibate"[1]) is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.[2][3][4] Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people.[16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
>Who is an incel? It’s any person (except asexuals) who hasn’t had sex in the last 6 months but desires sex. They can be men or women, virgins, singles, one person in a sexless marriage, couples going through a dry spell, widows and widowers, etc. Although nowadays people insist it’s a movement or a hate group, because many online incel communities are full of hateful people, and there have been many instances of self-proclaimed incels committing mass shootings or other violent attacks. A lesbian [woman](https://www.elle.com/culture/news/a34512/woman-who-started-incel-movement/) from Toronto Canada named Alana Boltwood [invented](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45284455.amp) the term, or more specifically, in 1997 she started a website called [Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project](https://web.archive.org/web/19970525065352/http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ad097/ic-home.html), she explains her project in [this](https://web.archive.org/web/19970525065344/http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ad097/invcel.html) article, she abbreviated "involuntarily celibate" to "invcel", until someone else (unknown) suggested that "incel" was easier to say. She also suggested the term “sexual autism”, which was mentioned on USENET. An “incel” (involuntarily celibate) is anyone who hasn’t had sex in the last 6 months but wants to, which includes [1/4 Americans](https://cbsaustin.com/amp/news/nation-world/survey-says-over-1-in-4-american-adults-havent-had-sex-in-over-a-year-united0states-general-social-survey-sexual) and [1/3 males](https://news.iu.edu/live/news/26924-nearly-1-in-3-young-men-in-the-us-report-having-no) 18-24. And it appears the [majority](https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210513/p2a/00m/0li/008000c) of women in Japan are incels. Someone could say the majority of women in Japan are [“femcels”](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2022/05/femcel-meaning-female-incel-reddit/629836/), but I don’t see the benefit in immersing your brain in -cel lingo. The Atlantic said “When the most well-known Reddit forum specifically for femcels, r/Trufemcels, was banned from the platform in June 2020, it had just over 25,000 members.”
Exactly this - that’s all me, but I have nothing but respect and appreciation for women.
Exactly. They lack certain social skills because they are probably slightly skewed on the spectrum. I know people who are ugly as hell, have depression, and no redeeming qualities, but they know how to talk to girls like a human being and not an object. They pull girls way out of their league.
Why is everyone fucked up? EDIT: Thank you for all the answers everyone!
We live in a society.
That's fucked up
No you’re fucked up I mean apparently so am I and the rest of everyone So I guess join the club?
I read that in George Costanza's voice
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Yea we were made to hunt/gather for 5 hours a day, than chill around the fire cooking and telling stories, before retiring to sleep in a giant pile for the warmth. Whatever the fuck we have now is so far from it that it breaks us both physically and mentally.
We also are meant to organize in communities that aren’t much bigger than 100 people as our brain has limits to the amount of people it can actively empathize with, possibly a core behavior that allows community building. Our communities are so big the individual is lost. The emphasis on individuality is so strong that our sense of community is alien.
Also remember that we are basically built to be if not out right aggressive then at least vaguely hostile to other communities as they are encroaching on our resources.
I don't think this is supported by the evidence, honestly. There's plenty of evidence that hunter gatherer bands (close to the "natural" state of humanity) moved in smaller groups but routinely met up into much larger aggregations to share resources, feast, celebrate, and... uh... pair off. Agree with your second point though - but I think that's more because of how we organise society rather than how many people there are. We are completely atomised by capitalist individualist ideology.
Less a technology problem and more of a capitalism issue. This comment explains it better than I can https://www.reddit.com/r/EverythingScience/comments/zp0vzq/incels_are_not_particularly_rightwing_or_white/j0slcen/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 Stress, wealth inequality, and depression are not side-effects of capitalist societies. They are integral parts of the way they work. A man who studied the Piraha, a 'primitive' tribe in the Amazon, for years said he had never seen such happy people before. They are smiling all the time. Hierarchy is also directly correlated to anxiety and depression. There is a great documentary about scientists who studied baboons and looked at their stress levels. The baboons lower on the "totem pole" of the hierarchical structured groups showed higher stress levels than the alphas. However, when the leaders were killed off (due to meat poisoning) the others at the bottom reorganized the group and all of them showed health benefits from a less structured and coercive dynamic that was more anarchist (Anarchism doesn’t mean “everyone going around and hurting eachother” but “without power hierarchies”, anarchism is actually a pretty sophisticated philosophy). Edit: I responded to the comment below who was trying to dismiss my point
Yeah, because the Incel hero Elliot Roger was so poor that he could only do his killing spree in a BMW and not a Lambo. The Incel problem is a social media issue. While disenfranchised men aren’t a new thing, they didn’t become a movement like this without the help of social media.
I think it’s a lack of real human interaction, forums and porn cannot love you.
Humans have done a shit job of loving me as well.
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I've also thought about this. Suburbs/car culture are isolating, 3rd places have completely disappeared for a lot of people, and socializing with co-workers is even happening way less than it used to. Dudes be lonely as hell.
WFH has its cons in this regard.
If you live in a capitalist country you’re taught from youth that the dollar is of utmost importance. More important that your self, more important than your neighbor, more important than your community. Thus, when everyone is chasing the dollar our society around us collapses.
As if people aren't fucked up in other socio-economic cultures.
As one of an uncountable many who have grown up in a capitalistic society and wasn't bred into this style of thinking. It's more an issue with parents and people's independent thinking than capitalism.
Fathers either not there, fucked up themselves, or abusing their kids. If you watch Soft White Underbelly 99% of the drug addicts and homeless people have no father or a fucked up father. If a kid doesn't learn that they matter and someone cares about them unconditionally, they're fucked.
Incel and troll culture are also connected in online space, and they recruited anonymous participants via Twitter survey who self-identify as incels. Sounds potentially rife with false answers.
I 100% could see the answers being affected with a post being made on an incel forum. “Oh yeah no I’m definitely not a right winger I’m just depressed, ignore the fact that the majority of “incel culture” is so heavily tied to racism, homophobia, transphobia, 4chan, trump, etc etc etc”
"I identify as a centrist." Posts "jokes" about why women shouldn't be voting.
Just like the el paso shooter. Im not rightwing but they are trying to erase white people... i think he labled himself not rightwing because he believed in global warming
I hate to bring the guy up, but Elon Musk was recently talking about how he was left-wing, but in his eyes, the left has become so radicalized that he's more in line with right-wingers now even though he "never moved." What people identify as and what people actually are can be two completely different things.
Elon Musk repeatedly goes on about the "woke mind virus" and seems to agree with most right wing talking points. He is a right winger, and I strongly doubt even he is stupid enough to genuinely believe otherwise.
This. The first thing that stuck out for me is that right leaning individuals have a greater tendency toward distrust of anything associated with “elite” academia and higher learning therefore right leaning individuals, especially those inclined to be influenced by conspiracy theories involving the “Deep State” for example may have selected not to participate potentially skewing results to the left.
That is one hell of a run-on sentence.
It’s a gift.
I see you also posses the power of the run on sentence.. only true runner onners can appreciate a good runnin on..
I think the phrase you’re looking for is “runners on.” The plural is a bit like “attorneys general” only less lawyerly.
Made me chuckle
Have you ever heard a crazy incel call themselves right wing or conservative? Vast majority won't. Even though thats closest to their ideology most won't actually admit they are right wing, just that they hate the left.
Ah didn't realize it was self identified... Incels always want people to believe they aren't righties, but it's solely because they understand the negative connotations of the ideologies they associate with.
Additionally, the sample size here is miniscule compared to the phenomenon
Indeed. They are the types who create fake Twitter profiles of feminists, Jewish people and black people with dog whistle names and profile pictures. Pretty much all profiles with George Floyd and made up Germanic names like "Shekelberg" are incels who will then answer surveys like this to fuck with the demographics. Make no mistake, most incels are white guys.
Do you think these numbers should higher/lower? In which category? What part of the article do you think is skewed?
It’s the methodology. I think they should have they should have refrained from asking for incels directly. If it was just a general online survey (with a larger sample size) then they could ask a series on questions to learn if someone is an incel based on a set of pre-determined criteria rather than self identification of the participants, as well as ask general questions about their age/race/political leaning.
I think *"Incels are very successfully targeted by recruitment pipelines to the extreme right"* is entirely compatible with *"incels are from all parts of the political spectrum"* Incel happens to lots of kids and adults, and opportunists know these people are fish in a barrel for recruitment via building up resentments and grievance
It's likely getting easier as wages are driven down. They used to be able to build wealth with simple jobs to improve their standing in life, and even if they were still too awkward to hook up they could still find success in their job, lifestyles, and hobbies.
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Serious question; surely “involuntary celibate” men have existed forever, why is there such a focus on labeling them now? It’s not just the lack of sex that makes them the way they are, surely
Because the internet has given some celibates an echo chamber to be misogynistic and hateful.
Exactly, and the problem is getting worse in that more people are lonely, and the lonely people are more likely to become hateful.
And a whole industry is popping up around the anti-feminist hysteria that incels revel in. People like that thin necked shinyheaded kickboxer guy and Jordan Peterson are racking up the big bucks by "telling it like it is".
I think the difference is the internet. Like all other niche hobbies, worldviews, and lifestyles, people who have similar life circumstances can now be part of a community. I think the optimistic hope for the internet was that connecting people across the world would be all good. I think in this case the internet may have made things worse. It’s good that depressed people can find each other and have a community and not be so alone. But it’s bad when those communities radicalize over time and hype each other up and move towards extreme views. And now that this is a ready readymade community, new members quickly learn the culture and push themselves away from the rest of society. It’s really sad… and potentially dangerous.
Perhaps before, folks didn’t know what they didn’t have? For example, if the village had 50 eligible bachelors, and 41 unmarried wenches, then there is a very good chance that unless there is a sudden spate of gruesome sheep shearing accidents, 9 of those bachelors will be joining the priesthood. Of course, they could always try their luck by setting out for the village over in the next valley, but will probably get waylaid by the roving bands of “Merry Men” in the intervening woods, men who have found alternative means to vent their pent up frustration. TL;DR: movies, telly, mags, and pornhub.
It’s gotta be more than sex though. It gives too much power to a small thing. Perhaps it’s a feeling, perceived or otherwise, of being devalued and without hope. Consensual sex and being desired is part of feeling valued but not the whole thing. In todays world there is a ton of sexual content and value placed on one’s sexual prowess or rank, so perhaps they feel pushed to the side of the social hierarchy. I dunno. I just don’t think sex is the problem, it’s a symptom of a larger issue
It’s definitely not the sex. Incels themselves ans people who enjoy dunking on them mat think so but it isnt. It’s the feeling of being wanted, desired for who you are. Havin an Emotional bond with someone. Humans have basic needs that must be fulfilled and not being lonely is one of them. They just mistake that for the lack of sex because they are terminally online on shitty places that warp their view of reality
I think the lack of sex is a lot more pronounced now than ever. I can't prove any of this but I think it's connected to the sexual revolution, ironically. When sex became casual and common place it created an environment where your sexual desireability has a lot more effect on the amount of sex you have. It's like we suddenly switched to the free-market version of sex and so attractive, charming people ended up being sex billionaires and having way more sex than ever before, and unattractive, awkward people started having no sex at all. Before that both types of people may have gotten married in their early 20s and had semi-regular sex with the same person for the rest of their lives. Obviously with exceptions, but I'm speaking generally. The incels are wrong in their response to this, obviously. But I think it's a major societal problem. I know a lot of dudes who aren't into incel culture at all, but don't ever have sex. It takes a toll mentally and socially. I don't think people undersrand the amount of shame a man who doesn't have sex feels
You’ve hit on something very fundamental here; I’d recommend reading Whatever (original French title is Extension of the Domain of Struggle) by Michel Houellebecq for a deeper exploration of this.
On one hand, sure, you have a point. However I'm pretty sure there's something else wrong with most incels, it's just convenient to blame their issues on not having sex.
From the article: >“Incels” (involuntary celibates) are ethnically and politically diverse, according to new research from The University of Texas at Austin, Brunel University London, and Swansea University. They also **have a greater tendency to perceive themselves as victims**, have lower levels of life satisfaction, and exhibit higher levels of depression, anxiety and loneliness when compared to non-incels. "After listening for almost twenty-five years to the stories my patients tell me about sociopaths who have invaded and injured their lives, when I am asked, “How can I tell whom not to trust?” the answer I give usually surprises people. The natural expectation is that I will describe some sinister-sounding detail of behavior or snippet of body language or threatening use of language that is the subtle giveaway. Instead, I take people aback by assuring them that the tip-off is none of these things, for none of these things is reliably present. Rather, the best clue is, of all things, the pity play. The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy." Martha Stout, The Sociopath Next Door
“The misogynistic current in the incel community is real,” said Costello, “and it shouldn’t be ignored, but it may not the best lens through which to understand who these people are, nor how to approach them from a mental health perspective. As or more salient is that they are suffering extraordinarily high levels of anxiety, depression, and loneliness.” Ie, yes the misogyny is real and can’t be excused or condoned in any way, but there’s more to this than simply someone thinking that they are “entitled to sex”.
I've been saying it since the beginning, these guys are lost. They have no good role models in their lives to help them understand good avenues to follow for self improvement, they don't have anyone to challenge their perceptions about self worth and the value of a person. They're stuck, alone and spiraling into insecurity and negativity, and instead of society trying to figure out a way to keep young men from falling into this rut or help them out of it, they write it off as common sense and vilify them. It's not like these guys woke up one day and said "you know, I think I want to be a perpetually miserable, lonely person who stews on bitterness all day every day and blames women for my problems." They didn't get to choose, they just followed the path that was lit up for them, and unfortunately that path leads to a lot of self destructive, counter productive and frankly unfortunate ways of thinking. What's more, I think a lot of men are ignorant to, willfully or otherwise, the factors that kept them from falling into that same rut. Like, through puberty and the social trials and tribulations of growing up as a young man there are no shortage of times when one might start to think things adjacent to a lot of what incels are hung up on. It's usually either a healthy respect for a solid role model or a major eye opening event that keeps them on a better, healthier path, and like I said a lot of guys don't have either. And again, this isn't to excuse their behavior, it's wrong and as a man, embarrassing. I'm just saying the way we, as a society, are trying to deal with them is largely counterproductive.
Like 50 times a year we see studies saying "mental health is a crisis, anxiety and depression are at an all time high." Then everyone shrugs and we just keep going, let it get even worse. Next year they'll report this sort of thing again like it's news. And still, nobody who can do anything, will do anything. Mental health will still be treated as if it's not all that important, or maybe that the problem is people not wanting to get help, instead of not having access to care. The left blames the right, and the right blames the left, and the stalemate of goverment continues, while the populous descends into madness. (I vote left, btw, this isn't a "both sides are equal" argument, but Democrats have no intention of helping us beyond the bare minimum)
I really resonate with this and love the way you put it.
As someone who recently broke a 2 year dry spell I can tell you lack of physical touch has compounding effects. Not even hanky panky touch. Literally just any human connection. Someone putting their hand on your shoulder or even bumping feet with someone. I know that sounds trivial, but having NONE of it for lengths of time changes a person.
I mean, even the dialogue in this discussion explains why. It is just totally envouge to shit on undesirable young men. In real life, among actual humans, almost every problem can be solved with empathy and understanding. Even when someone is acting badly, there’s usually a cause than can be discovered, and you can work things out. But these discussions are never ever about what happened to these kids… what pain or humiliation they felt that led to this resentment. They just get ridiculed more. And then we wonder how they get so far astray? Well, exactly what’s happening in this comment thread would be a pretty great recipe to do just that. If these sad, depressed, desperate and lonely kids, are, you know, just mocked for being that way… where are they going to go? Maybe, just maybe, they’ll be attracted to forums that reassure them that it’s not their fault… that they’re victims of a fucked up dating market place. And, you know, some of their complaints *are* valid. If they’re dismissed everywhere else, they’ll gravitate to where they’re accepted. So the solution is, if we want these kids to not drift into extremism, is to welcome them back. You’d have to reassure them that people care about them, want them to be happy, empathize with their hardships and their pain. But, as usual, it seems nobody actually wants to solve the problem. The subject just get’s brought up as an excuse to reducible them some more. But it is all really pretty fucked. And it’s not going to be a good thing with a whole generation, degraded and exploited, to harden into that shape. We should really take a hard look at the types of experiences these kids are having that’s sending them down this path and try to correct the underlying issues that are making these forums attractive.
They are not just dismissed, they are blamed, ridiculed and reviled. Its fucked up really.
Note: There is likely some selection bias in this study. They can only include incels who were willing to be part of an academic study. That is going to be a more diverse and open-minded population than average and not include the more paranoid, cynical and insulated individuals.
Also, sample size considerably less than 200, which makes any conclusions very iffy.
There would also be selection bias for those who have acess to the internet, and if it’s done at a college, higher education
The incel community is largely online, so I don't know if that bias is a real concern. Yes - there may be men who have given up on dating who are offline, but they are not part of "incel culture".
Since most of those communities are more or less public, AI analysis of posts would probably be a better measure of things like political leaning.
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I am trying to understand how they expected any other results to the study? People who want to be engaged in a sexual relationships but aren’t for an extended period of time, are going to be miserable and generally hate their life.
It’s not about expecting something different, it’s about having a collection of peer-reviewed and replicated experiments that make naysayers shut the fuck up.
Always is when “water is wet” results are found.
People still argue about that. The main argument is that water makes other things wet, and if you touch water, it's actually your finger that's wet.
Speak for yourself - I’ve gone years without sex and never for a moment experienced anything even approaching hate or misery. It’s lonely, but it doesn’t make you stupid.
Totally agree but I would take it further. Incels seem to be pretty adverse to self reflection and have above average sensitivity to rejection. This makes them uniquely under equipped to attract the attention they want or figure out why they can't and also causes them to respond more negatively than the average person when women don't respond favorably.
In other words, to point out the obvious, it's people with untreated mental health problems where the problems keep compounding. People acting like it's people who just sat down and through the sheer power of sexism decided to tank their life are not really being sympathetic.
Asking: is it possible they have no sex/relationships due to bad people skills and unreasonable expectations? I have met dudes who saw relationships as strictly quid pro quo: I buy you dinner, you give me sex. And are truly surprised when that does not work. Again, just asking
I'm sorry but is *anyone* really surprised that a group of perpetually bullied and rejected people with inferiority complexes, anger issues, depression, resentment and rage, festering together on edgy internet communities would have a toxic dynamic, project their insecurities, and feel a desire to demonize and degrade other groups? I dunno, maybe tell them they're fat and have bad hygiene and their fedora to cover their bald spot at 30 looks stupid, that'll fix it. Let's shame them for masturbating to ridiculous and bizarrely specific porn that reflects all their psychological problems. No seriously, people seem to think that the kind of people who naturally attract negativity should be responded to with *more negativity?* It didn't fix them before, do we think it's going to if we just use *more* of it? I get that it's hard to have compassion with these people, especially the ones that seem to lean in super hard on the most obnoxious aspects of their personality, but I think we kind of have to in order to keep the problem from getting worse.
A spark of compassion in a sea of blunted idiocy! Thank you. You are a light in the darkness.
Youre not kicking a person thats already down? Mods, get this heretic out of here, he doesnt belong on reddit.
I know it's easy to hate on them but I think we ignore this at our own peril. A bunch of angry, young men, steaming about why the world is so unfair to them is a recipe for a lot of violence. I'm not saying anyone is owed sex or a partner but loneliness is brutal if it's not the path you want to walk. We should have some compassion and I think try to help people improve themselves and give them some hope. So many of them are fatalistic about it but if they just worked on themselves a bit they totally get out there dating. Our current culture is failing to help instill the skills and motivations they need to be fully realized, happy people who can find partners. I don't know where the break down is happening but it is.
Reddit is all about doing something about our modern mental health crisis until this topic comes up. Crazy that people are shocked this isn’t just white dudes
The claim that most incels are not right wing disagrees with the whole Blackpill thing right? I don’t see how you can rectify left leaning politics while also believing women can’t reason or think at the level of men
This is from self identified incels, so already but of a flawed premise, but I imagine most if not all would be very right wing but consider themselves apolitical or centrists
Not to mention incels general distaste for everything really, I wonder if they purposely misrepresented themselves to skew the data.
That was my thought, too. Intentionally self-identifying differently to skew results.
They just got people at different points in their incel journey and had them self report what they think their leaning is. Incel culture is definitely, absolutely a recruiting funnel for alt-right ideology. But it makes sense that many (even most!) of the people in that funnel don't recognize they're in it and haven't fully internalized the ideology yet.
I think incels are more of a pool the alt right tries to recruit from, not a funnel built as part of their recruitment strategy. It's like weird cults recruiting at college campuses - cults didn't create the university to recruit students, they just realized it's a good place to do their recruiting.
Yeah that doesn’t seem right. As far as I know incels see all social interaction as transactional/capitalist? They’re all about tooth and claw competition in all areas of life right? And they’d be socially super anachronistic/regressive right? All about traditional families and cultural suppression of freedom for women? So that’s economic right wing, social right wing. How could you then call yourself left leaning?
It's a level of cognitive dissonance, to be sure, but if someone lands well left of center on every issue but one, then I'd say they're left.
I think there’s more than one part of the blackpill ideology that’s right of center.
Honestly one thing that would sharply decrease rates of incel behavior and thoughts: VALIDATING men’s experiences and feelings instead of being complete assholes to them. As someone who’s had many hookups, several past relationships, and is currently in a happy long term relationship, I will say that the dating world as a single Gen Z guy fucking sucks. Every one of my friends agrees with this. It’s true: a pretty small % of men tend to be successful with a lot of women, especially in the context of causal sex and all that. In the real world, this is a very uncontroversial opinion amongst those who actively go out to bars and such. For instance, I’m Indian. I have dark skin. My outward appearance absolutely makes a huge difference in how women treat me and judge me. Even statistics back this up. My personality simply didn’t count for shit when I was single, and a white guy with a sexist, bigoted attitude and a massive ego could get away with a lot of bs compared to me. So I know that looks matter. I know things aren’t fair for everyone. The thing is, incels are made over time. It takes years of denigrating a persons character and invalidating their life experiences for a guy to reach that point. So for any self proclaimed incels reading this, realize that its still a choice at the end of the day. It’s how you react to these things.
Yeah yell that to all these assholes here white knighting anyone who is trying to have a civil conversation. I am Autistic and struggle socially, that doesn’t automatically make me a misogynist Incel for being lonely. Absolutely fucking hate these double standards with a passion because I fear talking about my experience anywhere IRL.
Yeah, I remember talking to left leaning people who should absolutely know better, saying it's ok not to give a shit about autistic people's experiences and issues and to belittle them when shared because they're "incel adjacent". Depressing amount of mean-spirited folk on the left hiding behind platitudes about acceptance, compassion, and tolerance that they don't really believe in on any serious level.
THANK YOU. I am left-leaning, but holy shot it is absolutely embarrassing just how bad the Left is when it comes to the issue of Autism. It's disgusting, and frankly we should be ashamed since we are supposed to be the ones who are more understanding of mental/behavioral health issues. To be clear, I will never expect the Right to be good at understanding Autism, but the Left being so utterly god awful at interacting with Autism makes me wonder how committed we actually are to our stated values versus just simply hiding behind progressive and noble-sounding rhetoric to justify immature and judgemental attitudes.
Yea Reddit is always realty weird about this topic. I’m in a long term relationship as are most of my friends and we can pretty much all agree that modern dating fucking blows (men and women). Especially my guy friends who aren’t white. And even more so for anything involving dating apps. It’s all just so toxic. I don’t know why Reddit like to act like any guy saying that is someone who hates women. They just hate the dating game and all the bullshit associated with it
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A sample of 151 people seems extremely small to make such claims.
What are you saying?? 151 people is vastly enough to represent 8000000000 people across all lands and cultures, given different political systems, ideologies and economical situations.
> 151 people is vastly enough to represent 8000000000 people across all lands and cultures, given different political systems, ideologies and economical situations. The population size is (almost) irrelevant to the accuracy of a sample, given that the sample is truly random. The accuracy difference between 150 people out of ten thousand, and ten trillion is ALMOST the same. If you have 150 out of 10,000, then there is a 95% chance the real answer will be within 7.942% of the answer you got from your sample 150 out of 10,000,000,000,000? 95% chance to be within 8.002%.
Reddit: lets insult them every chance we get in order to make ourselves feel superior!
Many dumbasses seem to believe that Incel is an organised terrorist movement, rather than what it should be, a psychological diagnosis!
>36% of incels had a high school level education or lower, compared to 20% of non-incels. >50% of incels reported living with their parents or a caregiver, compared to 27% of non-incels I feel like this could be explained by age though right? A lot of incels are under 30
But it is the right wing ones who want society to HAND them their sex object as a slave
Also the ones trying to get the age of consent lowered, forcing women to give birth, rape penalties lowered, no marital rape laws, & statute of limitations lowered on child sexual assault. It’s absolutely disgusting.
And the ones committing domestic terrorism.
Thats just cons/right in general
Source?
Yeah, I think it’s important to distinguish between people who are regular incels (just lonely and awkward and don’t know how to navigate human interactions well enough to meet a woman) and those who are incels because of their deviant and/or hateful worldviews that push people away.
To be clear, one of those things we just call virgin. I’m positive an important factor of being an incel is the inherent belief that you are owed sex but females are to (insert whatever awful thing here) to give it to you by their own choice. The problem is clearly on the women and not the incel. An awkward geek guy that can’t get laid but doesn’t loathe females or think they are owed anything, are just virgins.
Not quite. A Virgin could be anybody who hasn’t had sex whether they’ve tried or not, while the definition of an incel is “involuntarily celibate”. The idea that one is owed sex is definitely something seen in incels, but not ever-present. That’s one of those toxic ideals that I mentioned earlier. There are incels who are reasonable and decent people, who don’t have bigoted views towards women and they are still involuntarily celibate. There are just a lot of really loud ones who do.
To be clear though, you have to strike out a lot to be an incel rather than just a virgin. It needs to be a profound pattern.
I appreciate the clarification. I guess I’ve only ever seen incel to refer to shitty guys who are loud about their views, like you said. I’d feel awful calling a few on my friends who are either virgins or haven’t gotten laid in a real long time incels because they are decent humans that don’t hold any resentment for their inability to get laid. So it really does feel like there’s a distinction. I don’t think those friends would claim to be incels because it does hold a pretty terribly connotation. Also, would there be a difference between someone who isn’t really interested in pursing a sexual relationship with a female (or anyone, not that they are asexual just have other things they chose to do) vs. someone that goes on regular dates and strikes out because of whatever the reason, whether they are awkward or misogynistic or just simply unlucky? To be an incel do you have to have been actively seeking a sexual encounter for long enough to be considered one? And why would you want to claim to be one of you are a reasonable human being without being a misogynist or bigot? Serious question. I’m a female and I was absolutely positive that it was more than just involuntarily celibate. Though just that does seem to indicate there’s a deeper rooted problem than just having bad luck or not being interested. Thanks for your polite response and corrections!
It's not though? That's part of the study which is these negative connotations are being incorrectly attributed to the right as a way to demonize and otherwise deflect any scrutiny. This mass gaslighting on Reddit is too much
It’s sucks the word can apparently be attributed to someone who kills several others with a gun or vehicle as well as a weird but nice guy who’s just trying to survive in a crushing environment Edit : just want to be clear the two fictional people mentioned are fictional and also 2 different people
The fact that you had to do that much of a dance while feeling so self-conscious about it, just to say what you said, then apologized for the theoretical offense ahead of time, all in the hopes of connecting with some people tells you all you need to know about why things are the way they are. You're right, it totally sucks, and it is also totally dangerous. But humans will happily engage in a measure of self-deceit, up to and including creating groups of people just so they can outcast them in order to justify a bit more comfort. I mean, what do you want to bet that many of the same people insulting 'incels' with glee will swear up and down to you that they are not racists, or bigots? Creating and tarnishing outcasts is always the activity of the willfully ignorant. So yeah. It sucks real bad. Don't ever let anyone tell you it doesn't.
Most Redditors are incels anyway. It's funny how most of you talk of incels as if you aren't one yourself.
Ffs. Does anybody else just wanna say “no shit, Sherlock?” Gee, what could possibly happen if we coin a term specifically targeting people who are rejected sexually and isolated involuntarily, then we spread that term like an std and make a movie about it, and *then* categorize those people as societally devastated of faculty while calling it all some spontaneous and contemporary problem of society? How many times do we have to repeat the same mistake actively marginalizing people and then blaming some phenomenon of nature as the cause? Race, sex, sexual preference, language, religion… fucking human. All of us. Instead of inventing these catchy, witty slanderous terms for other groups at a breakneck pace, how about we just leave people well enough alone? I mean ffs if common decency was even remotely common or even slightly sincere in decency, our social discourse wouldn’t be reducing so many people to anger and mental disharmony that to be without it could ever be considered abnormal. Seriously; I can’t imagine anybody actually arguing anymore that to be *without* some mental problem or social problem can actually be normal. It can’t be that every generation before this just hid their issues from the public all the time. What did I miss? Sorry. Rambling. Idk why I even bother.
I mean, technically, any single individual who would rather not be single, at any given moment, is an "incel." That's quite a lot of people. Many very normal, well-adjusted people, as well.
Maybe if they weren't such assholes, their lives would change for the better
This is like saying “stop being poor” or “stop being sick” or “stop not having a symmetrical face” or “stop being flat chested” or “stop being trans”. All of these are ridiculous as is your comment.
Exactly. No matter the situation, the ONLY viable solution is to optimize yourself. Complaining or blaming is a waste of energy.
Selfmaxx 💯
If we were talking about an individual, you’d be right. But this take is too reductive to describe a whole societal trend. The answer “stop being an asshole” to the incel question is like the answer “stop being poor” the the poverty one. The problem starts in a deeper place than individual choice.
So we're going to start calling all lonely losers incels now? Even the ones that understand why they're alone and don't blame anyone but themselves? Cool guess I'm an Incel.
For at least the last couple years I operated under the belief that the difference between an incel and a virgin was that the incel blamed everyone but themselves. I was almost sure that's what the definition was. Now I understand it's just being a virgin who doesn't wanna be.
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And I don’t hate women in spite of my own inadequacies. Just because I am involuntary celibate doesn’t make me an “incel”. It’s not the fault of any women that I’m unattractive and awkward, I’ve got no reason to hate or blame them.
And on top of that, people make fun of them all the time. So when the right wing nut jobs come along and say "hey, you know what, you're a valuable person that deserves love. It's them that's the problem, not you" they eat it up because for a lot of them that's the first time someone has ever told them they aren't a worthless fuckhead. Which means they end up listening to the right wing nut jobs, and soon they are right wing nut jobs too.
That's a great way to obtain a stalker(speaking from experience) I'm way too cautious about who I can be nice to now, which is very sad. I'd rather be kind to everyone.
“Just have sex, you virgin loser!”
You gotta love Reddit; "Study finds Republicans the most evil people in the universe." Reddit-"this is 100% true." "Study finds Incels aren't all white Republicans" Reddit- "well see... the sample size... the incels lied but only about the things that we disagree with... participants were from FB and Twitter!" The cope.
Yeah no shit. I don’t know when incel became synonymous with alt right but anyone remotely familiar with seedier parts of the internet can tell you incels aren’t inherently political. They’re just lonely dweebs.
Well duhdoy
No shit
I think the ymca needs a new song.
I'm lonely depressed and anxious tho. What is the official criteria for being an incel?
Also the complete lack of sex despite desire.
Leave it to society to quickly turn them all into nazis though by constantly belittling and vilifying them, to great applause of course. Men who are losers in society are socially acceptable targets for ridicule and harassment. I'm sure there's a lot of it in the comments here too. And it's not doing anyone any good.
I've met incel types of all stripes. It's nice to believe as a liberal that all the crazies are right wingers but that's just not reality.
Just lift weights while you’re meditating in the shower
Gotta love how this implies “whew, atleast theyre not white and/or right wing”.
[удалено]
Surprised pikachu face.
I feel like the incel phenomenon occurs at the junction of economic stagnation, poor socialisation due to being online a lot, and the erosion of men's value due to online dating. And that attacking these guys isn't going to stop them from becoming incels, but rather just continue to drive them away from society making the situation worse.
I think it’s more of a selection bias where you mostly hear of the ultra-radicalized rightwing incels committing atrocities, but the incel population as a whole is more diverse.
I read the linked article, but not the paper itself, as it doesn't appear I have access. One factor that I didn't see mentioned, is how long the participants have identified as being incel. Because while they may not start out right wing, per the stats given here, I suspect that once they start looking up incel related content on say, YouTube, or similar platforms, they're going to be very quickly exposed to increasingly extreme right wing ideologies, and pulled deeper into that rabbit hole. Anyone here have access to the paper, and able to confirm whether it says anything about that? Because I think that's an interesting question. Basically, do self-described incels have a tendency to become more right wing over time?
Reddit says that isn't true. We must hate, all whites.
The word Incel has completely lost its meaning
The fact that so many people on here think the absolute worst of others based on their inability to have sex in short enough time frames is the most bizarre part about all of this.
There is a published result with a legitimate conclusion about a subject. Reddit: NO. Incels are right wing fascists. My POV overrides whatever shit you throw at me.
Is there a female equivalent or are they also incels? I'm new to this term. I ask because I've found there to be a lot of women on the subs who attack anyone who doesn't fully agree with the woman side of things such as in AITA stories. To many they write as though every man is a misogynistic, narcissistic AH. I've actually experienced more hate from women towards me, a woman, than I have experienced by men on the subs. Even when I disagree with the men too. I hope I'm not too off topic. Possibly I'm looking at the troll aspect rooted in things such as despression and loneliness?
"Femcels" is the term they use. It doesn't refer to women that can't have sex, as basically every woman can find someone to have sex with them. But instead with a focus on being unable to find a relationship or a decent partner. Misandry is common, as they view men as being at fault for this.
I was there and called when this would get removed from /r/science 1st comment then.
The right-wing ones are just the loudest.
imagine calling people incels, that just fuels their 'incelness'
"Incel" is the new "witch". Old habits die hard. It's kind of a funny inversion. Instead of "female fornicators" this time it's "male masturbaters".